Ben Simmons and Cooper Flagg NCAA Stats

[Lebron23]

Ben Simmons: 19.2/11.8/4.8 with 50/n/a/67 splits

Cooper Flagg: 19.4/7.6/4.2 with 49/38/83 splits. Hopefully Cooper Flagg live up to his hype. Ben Simmons looks like the next LeBron, next Superstar in College.

[Wally450]

Duke is a 1 seed, LSU missed the tournament all together.

[ralph_i_el]

Ben only looked like the next LeBron to idiots. He didn't elevate his team at all. Duke is massacring people.

Flagg shoots jumpers. Huge huge difference.

[Meticode]

The only reason people related Simmons to LeBron was the combo of his size and passing ability. Otherwise they're completely different players in the way they score.

Flagg can actually shoot the ball. Simmons never has shot the ball.

[GOBB]

Lebron James couldn’t shoot either coming into the NBA. Ben reluctance to shoot is something the league hasn’t seen. You guys are speaking of after the fact. One guy James actually didn’t shy away from shooting and working on that weakness. The other stayed afraid. The funny thing is no one truly knows how good of a shooter Ben is or isn’t due to sample size.

Ben and Bron comparisons are identical because they are physically gifted athletes who possess an innate passing ability not many players have had. Magic also had it. Ben being a Bron comparable was not a bad one at all. The issues with Ben many including myself overlooked wasn’t shooting. It was the fact that he wasn’t a winner. He's not a leader. He folds under adversity, criticism. You can’t say this about Bron. He showed a will to win. There were red flags when he quit on LSU end of season. Bron is an alpha Ben is a beta. Bron is a dog. Ben is a cat.

Not sure why Flagg and Bron are compare tho. They don’t play remotely the same. If you are saying hype wise as a consensus #1 pick and if they live up to the hype? Guess we will find out. I’m sure he won’t fail like Ben. But will he look like a legitimate #1 and not a glue guy which are valuable? Who knows. His IQ is pretty good that stands out the most. Is he a franchise player? Hard for me to say.

[ralph_i_el]

I think you're underrating the actual flaws in Ben's game. It's not just jumpshooting, he lacked the ability to finish with his off-hand. He has the game of someone who always had a massive physical advantage, so he never developed the skills to beat good defense.

I was ahead of the curve on recognizing this. IMO, he was trash even when he was making all-star games. If you give a player a ton of touches, and they hardly look to score, they can't help but rack up assists. He forced lots of transition possessions in the regular season, but never actually converted them efficiently because of turnovers and bad free throw shooting. Those possessions mostly disappear in the playoffs. He was always a gimmick player on offense.

[pandiani17]

Lebron James couldn’t shoot either coming into the NBA. Ben reluctance to shoot is something the league hasn’t seen. You guys are speaking of after the fact. One guy James actually didn’t shy away from shooting and working on that weakness. The other stayed afraid. The funny thing is no one truly knows how good of a shooter Ben is or isn’t due to sample size.

Ben and Bron comparisons are identical because they are physically gifted athletes who possess an innate passing ability not many players have had. Magic also had it. Ben being a Bron comparable was not a bad one at all. The issues with Ben many including myself overlooked wasn’t shooting. It was the fact that he wasn’t a winner. He's not a leader. He folds under adversity, criticism. You can’t say this about Bron. He showed a will to win. There were red flags when he quit on LSU end of season. Bron is an alpha Ben is a beta. Bron is a dog. Ben is a cat.

Not sure why Flagg and Bron are compare tho. They don’t play remotely the same. If you are saying hype wise as a consensus #1 pick and if they live up to the hype? Guess we will find out. I’m sure he won’t fail like Ben. But will he look like a legitimate #1 and not a glue guy which are valuable? Who knows. His IQ is pretty good that stands out the most. Is he a franchise player? Hard for me to say.

I haven't been following college basketball for years now (used to love it in the early 2000s), who are the top prospects for this years' draft? Is Cooper going to be the number 1 pick or are there more promising players elsewhere? Usually we hear every year some players' names (I remember the hype with Andrew Wiggins, Zion Williamson or Victor Wembayama the year they were entering the league), is there a household name like that this year?

[ShawkFactory]

I haven't been following college basketball for years now (used to love it in the early 2000s), who are the top prospects for this years' draft? Is Cooper going to be the number 1 pick or are there more promising players elsewhere? Usually we hear every year some players' names (I remember the hype with Andrew Wiggins, Zion Williamson or Victor Wembayama the year they were entering the league), is there a household name like that this year?

Flagg is certainly on that level as a prospect and is already a household name.

Compared to last year this draft class is loaded. Dylan Harper and Ace Bailey are also great prospects and will likely go 2-3. Harper isn't overly athletic but is very skilled and can score at all 3 levels. He's almost Harden-esque while Bailey looks kind of like a young Tmac.

[GOBB]

I think you're underrating the actual flaws in Ben's game. It's not just jumpshooting, he lacked the ability to finish with his off-hand. He has the game of someone who always had a massive physical advantage, so he never developed the skills to beat good defense.

I was ahead of the curve on recognizing this. IMO, he was trash even when he was making all-star games. If you give a player a ton of touches, and they hardly look to score, they can't help but rack up assists. He forced lots of transition possessions in the regular season, but never actually converted them efficiently because of turnovers and bad free throw shooting. Those possessions mostly disappear in the playoffs. He was always a gimmick player on offense.

Fair take. I don’t believe the masses saw what you did then. Even tho I saw it I didn’t think of it as much as an issue. Because I placed a ton of stock onto his passing ability. That covered up his flaws or rather let you sweep em under the rug. But there was a lot to love about Bron at entering HS vs Ben at LSU. That I can say. Ben was hyped as this generational talent (what a joke) so that had the masses not seeing what you did.

[GOBB]

I haven't been following college basketball for years now (used to love it in the early 2000s), who are the top prospects for this years' draft? Is Cooper going to be the number 1 pick or are there more promising players elsewhere? Usually we hear every year some players' names (I remember the hype with Andrew Wiggins, Zion Williamson or Victor Wembayama the year they were entering the league), is there a household name like that this year?

I honestly haven’t followed college basketball enough to give an honest assessment. I have watched Cooper Flagg. Flagg is a lock for 1 and has been all season. Is he a #1 pick like a Wemby or Zion? That is what I question myself. Something is missing that doesn’t grab me to say yes he is. Dylan Harper Jr as mentioned is pretty good. Ron Harper son. He’s a big tough guard. And his teammate Ace Bailey has the physicals of a perimeter scoring threat. Outside of those 3 I couldn’t tell you much myself. I like Flagg over both. I just don’t know what to make of him at the next level.

[Overdrive]

Lebron James couldn’t shoot either coming into the NBA. Ben reluctance to shoot is something the league hasn’t seen. You guys are speaking of after the fact. One guy James actually didn’t shy away from shooting and working on that weakness. The other stayed afraid. The funny thing is no one truly knows how good of a shooter Ben is or isn’t due to sample size.

Ben and Bron comparisons are identical because they are physically gifted athletes who possess an innate passing ability not many players have had. Magic also had it. Ben being a Bron comparable was not a bad one at all. The issues with Ben many including myself overlooked wasn’t shooting. It was the fact that he wasn’t a winner. He's not a leader. He folds under adversity, criticism. You can’t say this about Bron. He showed a will to win. There were red flags when he quit on LSU end of season. Bron is an alpha Ben is a beta. Bron is a dog. Ben is a cat.

Not sure why Flagg and Bron are compare tho. They don’t play remotely the same. If you are saying hype wise as a consensus #1 pick and if they live up to the hype? Guess we will find out. I’m sure he won’t fail like Ben. But will he look like a legitimate #1 and not a glue guy which are valuable? Who knows. His IQ is pretty good that stands out the most. Is he a franchise player? Hard for me to say.

Fascinated that people still don't know what betas are.

[Im Still Ballin]

Even with all his limitations, both skill and mental, Simmons was a great talent who was rightfully compared to LeBron for the reasons GOBB mentioned. A comparison doesn't have to be perfect; a guy that big, athletic, and skilled as a ball handler and passer will naturally be compared to guys like LBJ, Odom, Giannis, and Magic.

I don't think people realize how poor the offensive fit with Embiid and Philly was for Simmons' game. His numbers were off the charts whenever he played without Joel - even in the playoffs. He was doing Sabonis-like numbers whenever he got the opportunity to play that screener/hand-off role. Except with DPOY-level defense.


Ben Simmons played four playoff games without Joel Embiid. Games 1 and 2 of the ECFR in 2018, Game 3 of the ECFR in 2019, and Game 5 of the ECFR in 2021. The 76ers won three of those games. He averaged 22.8 ppg, 8.0 rpg, 10.5 apg, 1.3 spg, 1.8 bpg, and 3.5 topg on 61.1% FG, 71.4% FT, and 65.6% TS.


Three stretches where Ben played maybe the best basketball of his NBA career:

1) The 16-game win streak in 2017-18

Ben averaged 14.0 ppg, 9.8 rpg, 10.4 apg, 1.9 spg, 0.8 bpg, 3.0 tpg while shooting 59.1% FG and a plus-minus of +13.3 per game on average. Admittedly, the 76ers faced an easy schedule but 9 of these games were without Joel. Ben's scoring went up a little (15.3 ppg on 62.9% FG) in these games.

2) December to February of the 2019-20 NBA season

Before injury shut him down for the season, Ben was playing some of the best basketball of his career. He averaged 19.6 ppg, 8.7 rpg, 8.3 apg, 2.2 spg, 0.6 bpg on 59.6% FG and 62.2% TS over 29 games between 2019-12-13 and 2020-02-11. His play was getting better and better up until the injury. Over the last 19 games of that stretch, Ben averaged 21.3 ppg, 9.4 rpg, 7.9 apg, 2.2 spg, 0.5 bpg on 61.6% FG and 64.2% TS.

3) January to March of the 2020-21 NBA season

Over 20 games between 2021-01-22 and 2021-03-16, Ben averaged 18.5 ppg, 7.2 rpg, 7.4 apg, 1.5 spg, 0.5 bpg, 2.9 topg on 62.1% FG and 64.5% TS. Philadelphia went 14-6 in these games and included Ben's career-high 42-point, 9-rebound, 12-assist performance against reigning DPOY Rudy Gobert and the Utah Jazz.

I made a thread saying Ben was talented enough to win an MVP on the right team playing the right role. I still stand by that.


I know this topic sounds outrageous because of who he has become post-Philly. But bear with me on this.

Simmons was a three-time All-Star, one-time All-NBA third team, and two-time All-Defense first-team player. Finished fourth and runner-up in the Defensive Player of the Year award. All accomplished in four seasons.

He had serious limitations but was clearly an impact player who brought significant value on defense and in transition while being a mixed bag in the half-court. His size, ball handling, and passing allowed him to be somewhat effective as a finisher in ball screening, cutting, and hand-off actions.

But I think it was obvious how bad a fit Philly was for his game. I wonder what his numbers and impact could've looked like in an ideal circumstance where he doesn't have to share the paint with Embiid. Joel's game suffered but not nearly as much because he could still leverage his post-up, mid-range, foul-drawing, and general size inside.

I feel like Ben could've been a 20 ppg, 10 rpg, 10 apg, 58-60% FG, 60+% TS guy on a team with the perfect scheme and personnel for his game. He wasn't that far off it in his three All-Star seasons ('19, '20, '21) combined (16 ppg, 8.0 rpg, 7.6 apg on 56.6% FG and 58.9%TS) despite the very poor fit for his game.

Put him on a faster-paced team where he can dominate the ball and has complimentary players? Those numbers are realistic. And that team could win and give him a strong enough MVP narrative. Something akin to a Jason Kidd, Steve Nash, Derrick Rose type of MVP campaign. Definitely not the best player in the NBA but everything aligns for a strong case for MVP.


So, this is what I'm asking you: 1) was pre-injury Ben Simmons talented enough to win an MVP? and 2) Regardless of your answer, design the optimal pre-injury Ben Simmons team that maximizes his talent, ability, and impact. Use players from 2017-2021. An roughly averaged-out version of them.

I've thought about it and the team needs a few things:

a) A center that can shoot threes to space the floor and open up the paint for Ben.
b) As much shooting as possible. Spot-up and movement/off-screen.
c) A fast-paced, early-offense game plan with an aggressive turnover-generating defense.
d) A secondary playmaker and shot-creator to allow Ben to play off-ball at times and be a shot-maker in the clutch.

Here's my starting lineup: (I've averaged the player salaries over four years from 2018-2021)

Ben Simmons (12.82m); Alex Caruso (1.5m to 2m)
Mike Conley (31.52m); Kentavious Caldwell-Pope (12.48m)
Danny Green (12.49m); Justice Winslow (8.04m)
Robert Covington (12.65m); Mike Muscala (3.58m)
Myles Turner (10.24m); Dewayne Dedmon (7.35m)

[2018-2021 salary cap average: 104.81m]

That starting lineup costs 79.72m and leaves me with 25.09m for the bench. That bench puts me a little over the cap. About 8m.

I chose Turner over Lopez and Gasol because he's cheaper, more mobile/able to switch. I thought about Conley, Lowry, Dragic, and Jrue for the secondary playmaker and shot creator. And Green and Covington are two good 3 and D players from the swing-man and forward spots. I feel like they allow us to switch, roam, generate turnovers, and get out in transition.

[Im Still Ballin]

...


Jason Kidd almost won an MVP over prime Tim Duncan and Shaquille O'Neal while averaging 14.7 ppg, 7.3 rpg, 9.9 apg, and 2.1 spg on 39.1% FG and 48.4% TS (93 TS+). Steve Nash won an MVP while putting up 15.5 ppg, 3.3 rpg, 11.5 apg, 1.0 on 50.2% FG and 60.6% TS (114 TS+).

Do those look like numbers outside the scope of pre-injury Ben Simmons? One couldn't shoot and the other couldn't defend.

Hell, Joakim Noah finished fourth in the 2014 MVP while averaging even fewer points per game. Now, he wasn't going to win in that season, but that's not the point. This is (read carefully and remember this):

Winning the MVP is as much about narrative as it is about how good or impactful a player is. And how good or impactful a player is isn't just dependent on talent or ability but also circumstance. Personnel, scheme, coaching, role - these all influence what a player does on the court. And what their perception is.

The backstory on Joakim Noah's MVP buzz in 2014:


Some extra context regarding the 2014 season:

- Started the season 12-18
- The offense was guard-centric
- Noah became more of a focal point on offense/ran through him
- Finished the season 36-15 (58 win-pace)
- Team offensive rating jumped +5 points
- Averaged 13.6 ppg, 11.9 rpg, 6.5 apg, 1.3 spg, 1.7 bpg on 2.7 topg (54.05% TS)


I will agree though that peak Noah deserves his respect for what he accomplished that season on 2013-14. That season's Bulls team was traaaaaaash. Look at this roster: https://www.basketball-reference.com.../CHI/2014.html

I would nearly equate it to Draymond having to play with no Curry and no Klay, since Deng and Rose were out. It started terribly, with the Bulls sitting at 12-18 30 games into the season. Thibs was basically still trying to run his Rose-centric offense with replacement parts, and it sucked.

At that point, Thibs basically said "This is Noah's team", and changed the whole scheme to run through him.

Noah's Bulls from there forward went 36-16, their offensive rating improved by almost 5 points, their defense stayed league-leading, and Noah averaged 13.5/12/7 the rest of the way, with 8 games of 10+ assists. Top of the league in most advanced stats, rightfully won the DPOY, first team all-NBA, all-star, and earned himself those MVP votes (4th place).

So if you wanted to say "I think Noah 2013-14 season was better individually than any of Dray's seasons", I wouldn't argue with that. Noah proved he was a floor-raiser and competitor even with his stars out, something Dray did not do when given the chance in 2019-20 in a similar situation.

However, this does also ignore the coaching and front office, with Thibs/Bulls pushing to win and Kerr/Warriors embracing the tank.

And no matter what, I'm pretty sure winning ANOTHER championship with everyone healthy this past year kind of absolves the shitty 19-20 season. Dray has nothing to prove to anyone at this point.


After starting 15 different lineups in the first 33 games of the season, they've only started four in the 45 games since. The starting five of Kirk Hinrich, Jimmy Butler, Mike Dunleavy, Carlos Boozer and Noah have now started 21 consecutive games. That's the longest run of the same starting five in the Thibodeau era.

Health is a big part, but it also has a lot to do with Noah's expanding skills. Thibodeau redesigned the offense to go through Noah from the elbow, and his remarkable passing ability for a big man was put on full display.

Noah has six 11-assist games since Feb 6, a 30-game stretch. All other NBA centers combined have only 27 such games in the last 30 years.

And, in the more important aspect of winning, the Bulls have turned around in the re-imagined offense. Since the Luol Deng trade, they are 32-14, the best record in the Eastern Conference. The only team in the NBA with more wins in that span is the San Antonio Spurs.

Noah also took over the transition game, which is better explained by this fantastic compilation, courtesy of Sports Illustrated’s Rob Mahoney, than by words alone.

The Bulls have had the best defense in the NBA over that span. And while their offense is still only the 25th most efficient, it’s notching 5.5 more points per 100 possessions since being run through Noah. And, both the offense and the defense are close to two points per 100 possessions better when Noah’s on the court.

Noah has established himself as something no one thought he could be—a player who can carry a contender. The winning speaks for itself. As a result, he’s not only emerged as a top-five candidate for MVP, he’s made “point center” a term in the process.

Here’s perhaps the most remarkable summation of Noah’s achievement this year: He has 956 points, 398 assists and 849 rebounds. In the history of the NBA, the only other centers to do that are Wilt Chamberlain, Kareem Abdul-Jabbar and Bill Russell. That’s what we in basketball circles refer to as "elite company."

It seems to me that Ben Simmons was/is the type of player and personality that casual NBA fans have an emotional and at times irrational hatred for. And it affects their ability to be impartial, unbiased, and display critical thinking skills.

[ralph_i_el]

Even with all his limitations, both skill and mental, Simmons was a great talent who was rightfully compared to LeBron for the reasons GOBB mentioned. A comparison doesn't have to be perfect; a guy that big, athletic, and skilled as a ball handler and passer will naturally be compared to guys like LBJ, Odom, Giannis, and Magic.

I don't think people realize how poor the offensive fit with Embiid and Philly was for Simmons' game. His numbers were off the charts whenever he played without Joel - even in the playoffs. He was doing Sabonis-like numbers whenever he got the opportunity to play that screener/hand-off role. Except with DPOY-level defense.





I made a thread saying Ben was talented enough to win an MVP on the right team playing the right role. I still stand by that.

Embiid is a 5 that can shoot, which is an absolutely essential thing to have if you're playing Ben Simmons. Simmons held Embiid back way more than vice-versa.

We're hyping Ben Simmons up for beating a Heat team that started:

James Johnson
Josh richardson
Goran Dragic
Hassan whiteside
Tyler Johnson
:oldlol:

Then he got the dub over:
DLo Russell
Joe Harris
DeMarre Carroll
Jarrett Allen (age 20)
Rodions Kurucs
:oldlol:

Then one last win to hang his hat on, over my bumass Wizards (Backcourt: Westbrook, 180lb Raul Neto, Brad Beal). He got 17 minutes of bumrushing elderly Robin Lopez in the paint that game.


A lineup of:

Ben Simmons (12.82m); Alex Caruso (1.5m to 2m)
Mike Conley (31.52m); Kentavious Caldwell-Pope (12.48m)
Danny Green (12.49m); Justice Winslow (8.04m)
Robert Covington (12.65m); Mike Muscala (3.58m)
Myles Turner (10.24m); Dewayne Dedmon (7.35m)

Is not winning SHIT in the playoffs. They have nobody who is/was a go-to scorer. That team would have no hope against playoff D.

Ben Simmons as the lead ballhandler on your team limits your flexibility on offense in a way that cripples you in the playoffs.
Ben Simmons on the floor without being the lead ballhandler marginalizes his skill and accentuates his weakness, making him not worth playing.
Building a lineup around Ben Simmons has always been an exercise in futility, because the best teams were always going to be able to neutralize this guy in a series.

[Real Men Wear Green]

For a Simmons-led offense to work three of the other guys need three-point shooting, the center has to at least have a jumper, and you still need one of the other guys to be good at creating a shot off the dribble. Confession: Before he got exposed by that last non-year in Philly I thought he could have fit well with the Celtics a a point forward (this was before Tatum was turned into a point forward). I thought the offense would be pretty good while the defense would be historic.

[GOBB]

Fascinated that people still don't know what betas are.

It’s an outdated take to say betas are not aggressive, assertive, more reserved and non confrontational. It’s probably been misrepresented/used. When it comes to sports that seems to always be the case with labels. Game manager, glue guy. Folks read those words and think role player, scrub, not that good etc

So I’ll say Ben Simmons is too passive of an athlete given his size and ability. Whereas Bron is more aggressive in his approach. Takes control/charge. Ben allows outside noise to bother him. Which is why he had to be coddled in Philly which didn’t help him none. If you look at Ben career right now? He’s content with what he’s doing. He rather just coast til the end.