If MJ had career-ending injury b4 the 88' season......

[3ba11]

The Bulls would win less than 10 games with rookie Pippen and need to bring in KJ or Worthy to lead Pippen..

Pippen was never a franchise player that was tasked with building a team, and he was simply gifted a ready-made system and goat dynasty in 94'.. MJ's sudden retirement is the only reason Pippen was a 1st option briefly...

If Pippen is 1st option, the team cannot have a 2nd option because any scorer will replace Pippen at 1st option... Accordingly, Pippen cannot be a franchise player that builds teams and predictably cratered the goat dynasty to barely .500 in less than 18 months before MJ returned to stop the biggest drop-off ever (goat dynasty to barely .500).

[SouBeachTalents]

Did you guys know that Jordan retired, at his peak, like a month before the season started in '94, and the Bulls still went on to win 55 games that year.

Pippen had an incredible year, he finished top 3 in MVP voting, top 3 in DPOY, and made All-NBA & All-Defensive First Teams. He was a true franchise player, and quite a luxury to have as a 2nd option. It's no surprise Jordan couldn't win shit until Pippen made the leap to elite player.

[Phoenix]

If MJ had career-ending injury b4 the 88' season......

We'd have 250,000 less 3ball posts. Dude literally wouldn't have a reason to exist.

[3ba11]

Did you guys know that Jordan retired, at his peak, like a month before the season started in '94, and the Bulls still went on to win 55 games that year.

Pippen had an incredible year, he finished top 3 in MVP voting, top 3 in DPOY, and made All-NBA & All-Defensive First Teams. He was a true franchise player, and quite a luxury to have as a 2nd option. It's no surprise Jordan couldn't win shit until Pippen made the leap to elite player.



Lebron cratered all-stars or all-defender acquisitions that produced at "pippen-levels":




Per 100 Possessions

05' HUGHES (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/h/hughela01.html#all_per_poss)................. 29.3 on 52 TS.... 21.6 PER.... 0.157 WS/48 (1st team all-defense, no all-star)
91' PIPPEN (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pippesc01.html#all_per_poss)................... 24.3 on 56 TS.... 20.6 PER.... 0.179 WS/48 (2nd team all-defense, no all-star)

09' JAMISON (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jamisan01.html#all_per_poss)................ 30.7 on 55 TS.... 20.6 PER.... 0.126 WS/48 (2x all-star)
93' PIPPEN (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pippesc01.html#all_per_poss)................... 25.1 on 51 TS.... 19.2 PER.... 0.138 WS/48 (2x all-star)




Lebron also lost with all-stars that produced at "pippen-levels", and better team defensive ranking:



Per 100 Possessions

09' MO WILLIAMS (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/willima01.html#all_per_poss)........ 27.5 on 59 TS.... 17.2 PER.... 0.165 WS/48 (#3 team defense)
93' PIPPEN (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pippesc01.html#all_per_poss).................. 25.1 on 51 TS.... 19.2 PER.... 0.138 WS/48 (#7 team defense)

05' ZYDRUNAS (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/i/ilgauzy01.html#all_per_poss)'............ 27.0 on 55 TS.... 19.5 PER.... 0.149 WS/48 (all-star)
91' PIPPEN (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pippesc01.html#all_per_poss).................. 24.3 on 56 TS.... 20.6 PER.... 0.179 WS/48 (no all-star)




CONCLUSION: MJ was good enough to be unbeatable with the first all-star he received, thereby never needing another one, while Lebron lost with numerous all-stars and 2nd option-type players, thereby needing elite 1st options and franchise players instead (Luka, Wade, AD, Kyrie).. He also needed additional 1st options/franchise players to play 3rd option (Love, Bosh)... And yet he still mostly lost because his mostly unassisted skillset of ball-domination imposes spot-up roles that prevents young player development, elite roster construction, great teams, or winning with normal rosters of 1 franchise player.

[3ba11]

.
FYI:

JORDAN'S 1987 SEASON........ 2nd player ever with 3000 points... 1st player ever with 200 steals & 100 blocks




Did you guys know that Jordan retired, at his peak, like a month before the season started in '94, and the Bulls still went on to win 55 games that year.

Pippen had an incredible year, he finished top 3 in MVP voting, top 3 in DPOY, and made All-NBA & All-Defensive First Teams. He was a true franchise player, and quite a luxury to have as a 2nd option. It's no surprise Jordan couldn't win shit until Pippen made the leap to elite player.



We've never said that Giannis can't win without Middleton, or Curry can't win without Klay, or Jokic can't win without Murray... It punishes these guys for producing a great team without needing additional stars, while praising guys that need many star teammates and can't produce great teams (and therefore must move on to another team)...

Jokic, Jordan and Curry won with a 2nd option producers like Klay, Pippen, and Murray, while Lebron needs 1st options and franchise players at 2nd and 3rd option (Luka, Wade, AD, Love, Bosh, Kyrie)... So there's no comparison... Jordan and Curry were unbeatable with a single 2nd option, while Lebron mostly lost with multiple 1st options and franchise players as teammates.

Again, no one ever says that Curry can't win without Klay or Giannis can't win without Middleton, yet this logic is considered perfectly fine for Jordan, which confirms that zero real arguments exist against him.. He simply had the perfect career.

Btw, prime Jordan never got to play without Pippen, so that's a losing argument to begin with... Jordan had 2 seasons in 85' and 87', so he had zero prime years without Pippen, yet this tiny window of non-prime years still resulted in a goat season in 1987 (shown above), or Bobby Knight and Bird saying he's the goat and "god".

[SouBeachTalents]

Lebron cratered all-stars or all-defender acquisitions that produced at "pippen-levels":




Per 100 Possessions

05' HUGHES (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/h/hughela01.html#all_per_poss)................. 29.3 on 52 TS.... 21.6 PER.... 0.157 WS/48 (1st team all-defense, no all-star)
91' PIPPEN (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pippesc01.html#all_per_poss)................... 24.3 on 56 TS.... 20.6 PER.... 0.179 WS/48 (2nd team all-defense, no all-star)

09' JAMISON (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jamisan01.html#all_per_poss)................ 30.7 on 55 TS.... 20.6 PER.... 0.126 WS/48 (2x all-star)
93' PIPPEN (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pippesc01.html#all_per_poss)................... 25.1 on 51 TS.... 19.2 PER.... 0.138 WS/48 (2x all-star)




Lebron also lost with all-stars that produced at "pippen-levels", and better team defensive ranking:



Per 100 Possessions

09' MO WILLIAMS (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/willima01.html#all_per_poss)........ 27.5 on 59 TS.... 17.2 PER.... 0.165 WS/48 (#3 team defense)
93' PIPPEN (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pippesc01.html#all_per_poss).................. 25.1 on 51 TS.... 19.2 PER.... 0.138 WS/48 (#7 team defense)

05' ZYDRUNAS (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/i/ilgauzy01.html#all_per_poss)'............ 27.0 on 55 TS.... 19.5 PER.... 0.149 WS/48 (all-star)
91' PIPPEN (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pippesc01.html#all_per_poss).................. 24.3 on 56 TS.... 20.6 PER.... 0.179 WS/48 (no all-star)




CONCLUSION: MJ was good enough to be unbeatable with the first all-star he received, thereby never needing another one, while Lebron lost with numerous all-stars and 2nd option-type players, thereby needing elite 1st options and franchise players instead (Luka, Wade, AD, Kyrie).. He also needed additional 1st options/franchise players to play 3rd option (Love, Bosh)... And yet he still mostly lost because his mostly unassisted skillset of ball-domination imposes spot-up roles that prevents young player development, elite roster construction, great teams, or winning with normal rosters of 1 franchise player.


.
FYI:

JORDAN'S 1987 SEASON........ 2nd player ever with 3000 points... 1st player ever with 200 steals & 100 blocks







We've never said that Giannis can't win without Middleton, or Curry can't win without Klay, or Jokic can't win without Murray... It punishes these guys for producing a great team without needing additional stars, while praising guys that need many star teammates and can't produce great teams (and therefore must move on to another team)...

Jokic, Jordan and Curry won with a 2nd option producers like Klay, Pippen, and Murray, while Lebron needs 1st options and franchise players at 2nd and 3rd option (Luka, Wade, AD, Love, Bosh, Kyrie)... So there's no comparison... Jordan and Curry were unbeatable with a single 2nd option, while Lebron mostly lost with multiple 1st options and franchise players as teammates.

Again, no one ever says that Curry can't win without Klay or Giannis can't win without Middleton, yet this logic is considered perfectly fine for Jordan, which confirms that zero real arguments exist against him.. He simply had the perfect career.

Btw, prime Jordan never got to play without Pippen, so that's a losing argument to begin with... Jordan had 2 seasons in 85' and 87', so he had zero prime years without Pippen, yet this tiny window of non-prime years still resulted in a goat season in 1987 (shown above), or Bobby Knight and Bird saying he's the goat and "god".
1-9

[ImKobe]

Did you guys know that Jordan retired, at his peak, like a month before the season started in '94, and the Bulls still went on to win 55 games that year.

Pippen had an incredible year, he finished top 3 in MVP voting, top 3 in DPOY, and made All-NBA & All-Defensive First Teams. He was a true franchise player, and quite a luxury to have as a 2nd option. It's no surprise Jordan couldn't win shit until Pippen made the leap to elite player.

They added Kukoc and Kerr and the record wasn't really an indication of how good they were as they won a ridiculous amount of clutch games that year, and most of them weren't because of Pippen's heroics. When MJ retired in '94 they went from a #2 ranked offense to 14th and from #2 in Net Rating to 11th.

By the '95 season they were barely a .500 team without Grant and were begging for Jordan to come back.

[3ba11]

They added Kukoc and Kerr and the record wasn't really an indication of how good they were as they won a ridiculous amount of clutch games that year, and most of them weren't because of Pippen's heroics. When MJ retired in '94 they went from a #2 ranked offense to 14th and from #2 in Net Rating to 11th.

By the '95 season they were barely a .500 team without Grant and were begging for Jordan to come back.


Kukoc averaged 19 ppg and 5 assists outside the triangle in 1999, so he was a better scorer than Pippen and the closer that MJ never had... But despite having the same scoring help that MJ had, Pippen produced a 2nd Round loser and barely .500 in 95' instead of the goat dynasty like MJ did.

[SouBeachTalents]

Did you guys know that Jordan retired, at his peak, like a month before the season started in '94, and the Bulls still went on to win 55 games that year.

Pippen had an incredible year, he finished top 3 in MVP voting, top 3 in DPOY, and made All-NBA & All-Defensive First Teams. He was a true franchise player, and quite a luxury to have as a 2nd option. It's no surprise Jordan couldn't win shit until Pippen made the leap to elite player.
This.

[Wardell Curry]

OP, if you are so confident that you are right and your world view is correct, why do you spend such an enormous amount of energy trying to defend said viewpoint? You've said the same thing 20,000 times. Literally. Everyone knows what you think.

If you're right, be confident that you're right and stop trying to convince others.

That is, unless, there is some doubt in your mind, which we all know there is. It's pretty obvious you're more worried about convincing yourself than others.

[bullettooth]

Did you guys know that Jordan retired, at his peak, like a month before the season started in '94, and the Bulls still went on to win 55 games that year.

Pippen had an incredible year, he finished top 3 in MVP voting, top 3 in DPOY, and made All-NBA & All-Defensive First Teams. He was a true franchise player, and quite a luxury to have as a 2nd option. It's no surprise Jordan couldn't win shit until Pippen made the leap to elite player.

Yes... Pippen all of a sudden turned into an elite player in '94. He was a useless scrub before that held back the Bulls from winning any championships before that.

Right???

[3ba11]

Yes... Pippen all of a sudden turned into an elite player in '94. He was a useless scrub before that held back the Bulls from winning any championships before that.

Right???


22 ppg of system points has never been elite, and since this low peak continued in the playoffs, it's the lowest peak scoring ability of any notable 90's sidekick..

Every other sidekick was actually a 1b that produced at elite levels to carry their team to the conference finals or Finals... Pippen is the only sidekick that was just a transition player and couldn't produce at elite levels, and obviously never carried their team to the conference finals or Finals.

[3ba11]

Yes... Pippen all of a sudden turned into an elite player in '94. He was a useless scrub before that held back the Bulls from winning any championships before that.

Right???


Pippen suddenly turned into a horrific player outside the system in 1999 - history shows that he was literally a bad player outside the system..

Furthermore, 22 ppg of system points has never been elite, and since this low peak continued in the playoffs, it's the lowest peak scoring ability of any notable 90's sidekick..

Every other sidekick was actually a 1b that produced at elite levels to carry their team to the conference finals or Finals... Pippen is the only sidekick that was just a transition player and couldn't produce at elite levels, and obviously never carried their team to the conference finals or Finals.

[3ba11]

* Stockon carried the Jazz to the 97' Finals by dominating the WCF

* Ditto Porter in 1992 WCF

* Ditto Worthy in the 87' WCF

* Ditto KJ in 1990 to carry the Suns over Magic's 1-seeded Lakers

* Ditto Kemp in the 96' WCF and nearly won FMVP in the Finals



^^^ Every sidekick was actually a 1b that could get elite stats and lead their team to the conference finals or finals, except Pippen... Pippen is the only sidekick that was just a transition player and couldn't produce at elite levels, and obviously never carried their team to the conference finals or Finals.

[SouBeachTalents]

Yes... Pippen all of a sudden turned into an elite player in '94. He was a useless scrub before that held back the Bulls from winning any championships before that.

Right???
Don't get it twisted, he was a great player before that too, All-NBA, getting MVP votes, arguably the best perimeter defender in the league. That first title run he outscored Ewing, Isiah & Magic. Dude was an absolute baller.

[RRR3]

Don't get it twisted, he was a great player before that too, All-NBA, getting MVP votes, arguably the best perimeter defender in the league. That first title run he outscored Ewing, Isiah & Magic. Dude was an absolute baller.
This is genuinely insane for a second option to accomplish.

[3ba11]

Don't get it twisted, he was a great player before that too, All-NBA, getting MVP votes, arguably the best perimeter defender in the league. That first title run he outscored Ewing, Isiah & Magic. Dude was an absolute baller.


The fact that you have to cherry-pick is only viable run makes my point that Pippen sucked.

He was an unmitigated disaster on virtually every other run and below league-average TS each time.

Let me know if you need more specifics...

We can start with the X-Man debacle in the 92' Playoffs that nearly caused massive upset loss and derailed title run.. Then we can move to his 93' Playoff run, where Dominique destroyed him and he had the worst advanced box stats of any winning sidekick (PER, BPM, WS/48, VORP, TS), while shooting 46% true shooting in the Finals (0% from three and 59% FT) and letting rookie Dumas go off .... Then there's 17 on 41% for the entire 96-98' Playoffs and 18 on 32% in 99' Playoffs.

So no, Pippen wasn't a baller.. He as a literal joke and just a dunker that couldn't score outside the system and wasn't on scouting reports.. He couldn't even pull-up off-the-dribble.. Let that sink in.

[RRR3]

Imagine talking about players who were playing when Kurt Cobain was alive lol. Only old men are worried about that weak ass era. MJ today=g leaguer.

[tpols]

If Scottie Pippen played like he did in the 1991 playoffs every year I don't think there'd ever be any shade tossed. He produced like a borderline superstar there. But totally shit the bed every year before, got outplayed by guys like Xman in 1992, and was worse in 1993. And then was even worse in the late 90s and capped it all off with GOAT choke in 2000. Is what it is. 1991 was the fluke.

[marLeY baLL]

pEAce + we$T$ide

[Chick Stern]

did you guys know that jordan QUIT, like a bitch, like a month before the season started in '94, and the bulls still went on to win 55 games that year.

Pippen had an incredible year, he finished top 3 in mvp voting, top 3 in dpoy, and made all-nba & all-defensive first teams. He was a true franchise player, and quite a luxury to have as a 2nd option. It's no surprise jordan couldn't win shit until pippen made the leap to elite player.

fify

[ShawkFactory]

The fact that you have to cherry-pick is only viable run makes my point that Pippen sucked.

He was an unmitigated disaster on virtually every other run and below league-average TS each time.

Let me know if you need more specifics...

We can start with the X-Man debacle in the 92' Playoffs that nearly caused massive upset loss and derailed title run.. Then we can move to his 93' Playoff run, where Dominique destroyed him and he had the worst advanced box stats of any winning sidekick (PER, BPM, WS/48, VORP, TS), while shooting 46% true shooting in the Finals (0% from three and 59% FT) and letting rookie Dumas go off .... Then there's 17 on 41% for the entire 96-98' Playoffs and 18 on 32% in 99' Playoffs.

So no, Pippen wasn't a baller.. He as a literal joke and just a dunker that couldn't score outside the system and wasn't on scouting reports.. He couldn't even pull-up off-the-dribble.. Let that sink in.

:lol