94' Pippen had a better scoring & closing 2nd option than MJ did, and upgraded roster

[3ba11]

Kukoc could average 19 and 5 assists outside the system, while being the closer that MJ never had and preferred offensively over Pippen in many situations.

In addition to having a better-scoring teammate than MJ ever did, 94' Pippen enjoyed upgrades at every other roster spot (Longley, Kerr, Harper, Perdue, etc)... But despite this superior cast than MJ ever had, Pippen could only produce a 2nd Round loser and barely .500 the following year, while MJ produced the goat dynasty with a weaker-scoring teammate and downgrades at every other roster spot.. Carry on.

[RRR3]

So MJ had a guy who outscored a bunch of other teams first option AND a guy who was better than that guy too (plus HOFer Dennis Rodman and former 20 PPG scorer Ron Harper)?

How did he ever lose a game :oldlol: Most stacked ever, what a fraud career.

[3ba11]

So MJ had a guy who outscored a bunch of other teams first option AND a guy who was better than that guy too (plus HOFer Dennis Rodman and former 20 PPG scorer Ron Harper)?

How did he ever lose a game :oldlol: Most stacked ever, what a fraud career.


Pippen only outscored opposing guards that were underperforming against MJ, and otherwise was destroyed by his own matchup at SF (Dominique, X-Man, Schrempf, Larry Johnson, Juwan Howard, Tracy Murray, Glen Rice, Nance, Johny Newman, Aguirre, and many more)

Pippen was worse than Jeff Green outside the triangle, and he was a joke IN the triangle by virtue of a low peak (20 ppg of transition) that wasn't on scouting reports, and worst-ever efficiency - the biggest bricklayer/lane-clogger of all-time, so he wasn't on scouting reports.

[RRR3]

When MJ had comparable casts to the other stars he was a first round exit. Overrated, not even top 50 all time. I'd take Nate Thurmond over MJ.

[3ba11]

When MJ had comparable casts to the other stars


The 91-98' Bulls had worse casts than most teams in the league because they were the only team with no 3rd scorer, no rim protection in a big man league, and a weak scorer at 2nd option (system player)

[RRR3]

MJ would be Lonnie Walker today. At best. Not even sure he'd make the league tbh. Baseball fans don't go around talking about how dominant Ty Cobb would be today, that's basically what you're doing, MJ played in the dark ages of basketball history, the game is just better now and he couldn't keep up.

[3ba11]

When MJ had comparable casts to the other stars he was 1st Round exit


The 91-98' Bulls had worse casts than most teams because they were the only team with no 3rd scorer, no rim protection in a big man league, and a weak scorer at 2nd option (system player)

Regarding the 1st Round exit teams - they were worse than the 04' Cavs (who had the East all-star center on their team but were still lottery because Lebron sucks and is a fraud).

[RRR3]

Imagine wasting this much time talking about a guy who was in his prime when Ronald Reagan was president :lol

Sports have advanced so much it would be comical to see MJ play today with his horrible dribblin and inability to hit 3s. Not to mention he couldn't even go left. He would be lucky to be in the league at all, can't think of a perimeter player in the league rn with less skills. Sure he looked skilled in the 80s back when people were still figuring out how to play basketball, but now that the game is studied and pored over? Couldn't cut it.

[SouBeachTalents]

So MJ had a guy who outscored a bunch of other teams first option AND a guy who was better than that guy too (plus HOFer Dennis Rodman and former 20 PPG scorer Ron Harper)?

How did he ever lose a game :oldlol: Most stacked ever, what a fraud career.
Durantesque rings.

[RRR3]

Durantesque rings.
Yeah but at least Durant has a modern skillset and isn't just beating up on literal grocer baggeries and car mechanics. MJ would only look like 80s MJ today at planet fitness.

[3ba11]

Imagine wasting this much time talking about a guy who was in his prime when Ronald Reagan was president :lol

Sports have advanced so much it would be comical to see MJ play today with his horrible dribblin and inability to hit 3s. Not to mention he couldn't even go left. He would be lucky to be in the league at all, can't think of a perimeter player in the league rn with less skills. Sure he looked skilled in the 80s back when people were still figuring out how to play basketball, but now that the game is studied and pored over? Couldn't cut it.


The best American player today is Tatum, but there were at least 15 American players in 1996 that were equal or better than Tatum

Shaq, Robinson, MJ, Drexler, Hill, Penny, Ewing, Zo, Payton, Malone, Barkley, Kemp, Kidd, Stockton, and you guys apparently would include Pippen...

And Hakeem was actually an American citizen that played for the US in the 96' Olympics... If we move later to 98' or 99', we can add Duncan, KG and Kobe, or if we move back to 1990 then we can add Dominique, Magic, Bird, Isiah, Mullin, KJ, aka everyone.

So American basketball was far superior in previous eras, which more than offsets the rise in international comp, since Americans are still most of the NBA... Since we know that the 90s era was superior, we can conclude that MJ won 6 chips in 3-pointer basketball because he was the most dominant player ever, not because it was a weak era.

[RRR3]

The best American player today is Tatum, but there were at least 15 American players in 1996 that were equal or better than Tatum

Shaq, Robinson, MJ, Drexler, Hill, Penny, Ewing, Zo, Payton, Malone, Barkley, Kemp, Kidd, Stockton, and you guys apparently would include Pippen...

And Hakeem was actually an American citizen that played for the US in the 96' Olympics... If we move later to 98' or 99', we can add Duncan, KG and Kobe, or if we move back to 1990 then we can add Dominique, Magic, Bird, Isiah, Mullin, KJ, aka everyone.

So American basketball was far superior in previous eras, which more than offsets the rise in international comp (Americans are still most of the NBA)... Since we know that the ere didn't suck, we can conclude that MJ won 6 chips in 3-pointer basketball as the best player (twice as much as anyone else) because he was the most dominant player ever, not because it was a weak era.
All of those guys would be role players at best today. Shaq, David Robinson and Hakeem might be able to carve out a niche as a rim runner like Derrick Lively, but no one is using a bunch of possessions posting up some guy anymore unless they're also an elite shooter and playmaker. The rest of the people you mentioned are either perimeter players who literally can't shoot or undersized big men with zero skill, they'd be bench warmers at best. Well Chris Mullin could shoot I'll give you that, he might be able to be a garbage time shooter who got minutes when there were a bunch of injuries.

Tatum is literally more skilled than any player in the 90s, he would average 45 PPG in that era lol.

[3ba11]

All of those guys would be role players at best today. Shaq, David Robinson and Hakeem might be able to carve out a niche as a rim runner like Derrick Lively, but no one is using a bunch of possessions posting up some guy anymore unless they're also an elite shooter and playmaker. The rest of the people you mentioned are either perimeter players who literally can't shoot or undersized big men with zero skill, they'd be bench warmers at best. Well Chris Mullin could shoot I'll give you that, he might be able to be a garbage time shooter who got minutes when there were a bunch of injuries.

Tatum is literally more skilled than any player in the 90s, he would average 45 PPG in that era lol.


Nope... Tatum is equal or worse than all those guys - he's barely better than Reggie Miller and actually Miller destroys him across the board in the playoffs (PER, WS/48, BPM, VORP).

So American basketball is a joke with Tatum, Ant and Ja leading the way, aka Miller, Iverson and Steve Francis, lol... Enjoy your bullsh*t league

[RRR3]

Nope... Tatum is equal or worse than all those guys - he's barely better than Reggie Miller and actually Miller destroys him across the board in the playoffs (PER, WS/48, BPM, VORP).

So American basketball is a joke with Tatum, Ant and Ja leading the way, aka Miller, Iverson and Steve Francis, lol... Enjoy your bullsh*t league
Why are you comparing stats from a much worse era? This is like me saying some superstar in the G League is better than a solid starter in the NBA rn because of stats without considering the difference in competition. Reggie Miller would average like 5 PPG today, there are a million guys that do what he did way better. Literally every team has shooters like that now, in the 90s that was considered special :lol

[tpols]

Nope... Tatum is equal or worse than all those guys - he's barely better than Reggie Miller and actually Miller destroys him across the board in the playoffs (PER, WS/48, BPM, VORP).

So American basketball is a joke with Tatum, Ant and Ja leading the way, aka Miller, Iverson and Steve Francis, lol... Enjoy your bullsh*t league

Tatum aint better than Reggie. He's too soft comparatively especially mentally.

[ShawkFactory]

MJ had both of them for several years.

[ImKobe]

Pippen wasn't good enough as a scorer so his ceiling was always as a #2 on a title team.

[sdot_thadon]

Hate to bring reality into your fantasy but Pippen's 2nd option in 94 was MJ'S 3rd option.

Toni Kukoc?

10.9 ppg in 94
9. 3 ppg in the 94 playoffs.

You gotta do better man.

[3ba11]

1999 KUKOC......... 18.8... 7.0... 5.3... 2.8 TO's... 18.6 PER... 3.0 BPM... 0.082 WS/48... 2.1 VORP
1990 PIPPEN'........ 16.3... 6.7... 5.4... 3.4 TO's... 16.3 PER... 1.8 BPM... 0.087 WS/48... 3.0 VORP




Hate to bring reality into your fantasy but Pippen's 2nd option in 94 was MJ'S 3rd option.

Toni Kukoc?

10.9 ppg in 94
9. 3 ppg in the 94 playoffs.

You gotta do better man.


Pippen played to capacity alongside Jordan, so it's Pippen's fault that Kukoc didn't play to capacity alongside him... Kukoc's peak was better than 1990 Pippen, shown above, so it's Pippen's fault that he couldn't light that fire under Kukoc like MJ did for Pippen... Pippen just wasn't that type of leader and was the opposite of a leader.

So again, Pippen had a 2nd option scorer and closer in 1994 that MJ never had - Kukoc was a NON-system player, aka true scoring ability, while Pippen also had upgraded talent at every other roster spot.. Pippen simply had a better cast than MJ ever had up to that point, yet Pippen could only produce a 2nd Round loser and barely .500 in 1995, while MJ produced the goat dynasty and 3-peat from 91-93'.

[StrongLurk]

Pip went 6/6 in the finals

[3ba11]

Pip went 6/6 in the finals


0/6 in FMVP which is the biggest FMVP futility in history.

Specifically, anyone that won more than 2 Finals needed a teammate to get 25 ppg or FMVP for at least 1 of the Finals, but Pippen is 0/6 in FMVP and peaked at 21 ppg.

Pippen is also 0/6 in matching Horry's gamescore from the 95' Finals... This means that Horry was a double-figure starter as a rookie (Pippen was single-digit bench player), and then he was the 2nd-best player on a title team as a sophomore (Pippen was a disaster in 89' and a bad player), and then 3rd year Horry played better in the Finals than Pippen ever did... The point is that MJ would've won titles in 89' and 90' with Horry instead of Pippen.. Everyone was better than young Pippen, who cost MJ 3 titles by sucking before MJ learned to win in spite of him - this includes winning despite Pippen wetting the bed in the 93' Playoffs or 92' 2nd Round, or 96-98' Playoffs.

[sdot_thadon]

1999 KUKOC......... 18.8... 7.0... 5.3... 2.8 TO's... 18.6 PER... 3.0 BPM... 0.082 WS/48... 2.1 VORP
1990 PIPPEN'........ 16.3... 6.7... 5.4... 3.4 TO's... 16.3 PER... 1.8 BPM... 0.087 WS/48... 3.0 VORP






Pippen played to capacity alongside Jordan, so it's Pippen's fault that Kukoc didn't play to capacity alongside him... Kukoc's peak was better than 1990 Pippen, shown above, so it's Pippen's fault that he couldn't light that fire under Kukoc like MJ did for Pippen... Pippen just wasn't that type of leader and was the opposite of a leader.

So again, Pippen had a 2nd option scorer and closer in 1994 that MJ never had - Kukoc was a NON-system player, aka true scoring ability, while Pippen also had upgraded talent at every other roster spot.. Pippen simply had a better cast than MJ ever had up to that point, yet Pippen could only produce a 2nd Round loser and barely .500 in 1995, while MJ produced the goat dynasty and 3-peat from 91-93'.

That's a pretty convoluted take you've got there buddy. So you mean to tell me that Mj never had the 2nd option pippen had based on kukoc's numbers in 5 years in the future, on a different team, where he may have actually been the 2nd option? Meanwhile in real life Toni wasn't even the 3rd option on Scottie's 94 team, in fact he started 8 whole games that season on that 10 ppg. As I said in the post you quoted: you've gotta do better man. After a million brain dead posts one would imagine you'd at least improve at your shit posting craft.

[3ba11]

That's a pretty convoluted take you've got there buddy. So you mean to tell me that Mj never had the 2nd option pippen had based on kukoc's numbers in 5 years in the future, on a different team, where he may have actually been the 2nd option? Meanwhile in real life Toni wasn't even the 3rd option on Scottie's 94 team, in fact he started 8 whole games that season on that 10 ppg. As I said in the post you quoted: you've gotta do better man. After a million brain dead posts one would imagine you'd at least improve at your shit posting craft.


Pippen wasn't even a 15 ppg scorer outside the system that he had a 4-year headstart on learning compared to Kukoc.

Yet Kukoc was still the preferred option when it mattered in tight games (so when the system wasn't sufficient) because he was 2nd on the Bulls in 4th quarter scoring for the 98' Playoffs (the only time that Pippen and Kukoc started together)... He was also chosen over Pippen to hit game-winners 5 times in 1994 alone...

In addition to Kukoc, guys like Steve Smith and Rasheed Wallace were higher options than Pippen too, or 36-year Barkley and Hakeem... So any scorer will supplant Pippen as 1st or 2nd option - he was only a 2nd option alongside Jordan and only a 1st option because Jordan surprisingly retired.

[sdot_thadon]

Pippen wasn't even a 15 ppg scorer outside the system that he had a 4-year headstart on learning compared to Kukoc.

Yet Kukoc was still the preferred option when it mattered in tight games (so when the system wasn't sufficient) because he was 2nd on the Bulls in 4th quarter scoring for the 98' Playoffs (the only time that Pippen and Kukoc started together)... He was also chosen over Pippen to hit game-winners 5 times in 1994 alone...

In addition to Kukoc, guys like Steve Smith and Rasheed Wallace were higher options than Pippen too, or 36-year Barkley and Hakeem... So any scorer will supplant Pippen as 1st or 2nd option - he was only a 2nd option alongside Jordan and only a 1st option because Jordan surprisingly retired.

If you had a shred of honesty you wouldn't come off as such a piece of shit lol. Pippen wasn't even a 15ppg scorer after back surgery and roles on top heavy teams where he was tasked to facilitate. He wasn't the same guy after Chicago clearly and it wasnt due to Mjs magical touch. Hell Mj wasn't nearly the same guy after Chicago either.

And again Toni was a guy who started 8 games during the season in question. Bad take stacked on a pile of shit foundational thought. Good day.

[3ba11]

If you had a shred of honesty you wouldn't come off as such a piece of shit lol. Pippen wasn't even a 15ppg scorer after back surgery and roles on top heavy teams where he was tasked to facilitate. He wasn't the same guy after Chicago clearly and it wasnt due to Mjs magical touch. Hell Mj wasn't nearly the same guy after Chicago either.

And again Toni was a guy who started 8 games during the season in question. Bad take stacked on a pile of shit foundational thought. Good day.


No one thought that, which is why he was signed to the historic contract, but his horrific play made the Rockets give him away for nothing.. So the market confirms what I'm saying, and rejects your revisionist history.

The expectation was that Pippen would average 20 ppg just like he did a few months prior during his 6th title season... Unfortunately, it's well-documented that the Rockets were shocked at how bad he was (system player), so they traded him for literally nothing...

So he went from a historic contract expectation to worth nothing outside the system... Again, this is the market's determination, not my opinion, or your revisionist history that Pippen was considered "done"... Again, this is false - he was considered a historic acquisition, which is why he got the historic contract, but then his horrific ability outside the system made him worthless and given away for nothing.

[StrongLurk]

0/6 in FMVP which is the biggest FMVP futility in history.

Specifically, anyone that won more than 2 Finals needed a teammate to get 25 ppg or FMVP for at least 1 of the Finals, but Pippen is 0/6 in FMVP and peaked at 21 ppg.

Pippen is also 0/6 in matching Horry's gamescore from the 95' Finals... This means that Horry was a double-figure starter as a rookie (Pippen was single-digit bench player), and then he was the 2nd-best player on a title team as a sophomore (Pippen was a disaster in 89' and a bad player), and then 3rd year Horry played better in the Finals than Pippen ever did... The point is that MJ would've won titles in 89' and 90' with Horry instead of Pippen.. Everyone was better than young Pippen, who cost MJ 3 titles by sucking before MJ learned to win in spite of him - this includes winning despite Pippen wetting the bed in the 93' Playoffs or 92' 2nd Round, or 96-98' Playoffs.

You made multiple threads stating FMVPS don't matter (because Lebron has the second most).

But now with Scott "the six chip" Pip, FMVPS suddenly do matter?

Jeez, idk buddy...

[3ba11]

You made multiple threads stating FMVPS don't matter (because Lebron has the second most).

But now with Scott "the six chip" Pip, FMVPS suddenly do matter?

Jeez, idk buddy...


That's why I added the part about 0/6 matching Horry's gamescore - anyone with a decent sample of Finals could match peak Horry, except Pippen... So I included something for everyone in my post, but you're biased from your denial of being a fraud victim, so you unfairly attacked me.... tsssk tsssk.. :no:

[RRR3]

That's why I added the part about 0/6 matching Horry's gamescore - anyone with a decent sample of Finals could match peak Horry, except Pippen... So I included something for everyone in my post, but you're biased from your denial of being a fraud victim, so you unfairly attacked me.... tsssk tsssk.. :no:
Horry's gamescore was better than 5/7 of Kobe's finals gamescores :yaohappy:

Roleplayerbe!

[3ba11]

Horry's gamescore was better than 5/7 of Kobe's finals gamescores :yaohappy:

Roleplayerbe!


anyone with a decent sample of Finals could match peak Horry, except Pippen... even kobe exceeded Horry twice and won FMVP twice, while Pippen is 0/6 at matching Horry or winning FMVP.. it's the most futility in the Finals ever.

[sdot_thadon]

No one thought that, which is why he was signed to the historic contract, but his horrific play made the Rockets give him away for nothing.. So the market confirms what I'm saying, and rejects your revisionist history.

The expectation was that Pippen would average 20 ppg just like he did a few months prior during his 6th title season... Unfortunately, it's well-documented that the Rockets were shocked at how bad he was (system player), so they traded him for literally nothing...

So he went from a historic contract expectation to worth nothing outside the system... Again, this is the market's determination, not my opinion, or your revisionist history that Pippen was considered "done"... Again, this is false - he was considered a historic acquisition, which is why he got the historic contract, but then his horrific ability outside the system made him worthless and given away for nothing.

Nobody thought that in the moment because it was in the moment duh. It's way easier to see a players decline after it's over. Hindsight is 20/20 (except when it comes to Mike)
With some distance from that moment and being able to compare it to his precious self it's clear to anyone with even half a brain that he was of lower quality post Chicago. You can ride your rainman retard narrative that it was because of a magical fairy in a 23 jersey and a mythical offensive system or you can just be real and say neither was the same by the time they left the Bulls. And even as diminished versions of themselves they were still pretty good players in the grand scheme of things. Lets take a minute to get really real though.

Scottie left a team where he was 2nd option and only had one guy hogging shots, but could space the floor from one another and coexist to playing with 2 elite paint players that need the ball and pretty much annihilated driving lanes as he knew them in Chicago. To playing in Portland with a really deep front court as well as an elite backcourt with 2 near 20ppg guys before playing there. The same shit you harp on about Love and Bosh happened to pippen after Chicago, smaller roles in different playing styles = worse numbers than you saw from them previously.

[3ba11]

.





Nobody thought that in the moment because it was in the moment duh. It's way easier to see a players decline after it's over. Hindsight is 20/20...Pippen he was of lower quality post Chicago






We can gauge a player's athletic decline by looking at their dunk frequency:




PIPPEN

https://i.makeagif.com/media/4-06-2025/wB0xPG.gif

https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pippesc01.html#all_shooting



Pippen missed half the season in 98' from ailments that he had in 96' and 97', so the dunk stats show that he was more athletic in Houston with higher dunk frequency of 5.6%, compared to 4.8% in Chicago for 97' and 98' combined... In addition to a better health and athletic bounce in Houston, his quickness and All-defense continued as well.. The only thing missing was his all-star offense because he no longer had the system that he grew up in to get 15 ppg of transition or flow points... So there's no need to make excuses for Pippen not living up to his historic contract in 1999 and his value reduced to rubble when he was traded for nothing - the market correction was needed because he couldn't even be 2nd option over the #49 and 60 scorers in the league (Steve Smith, Rasheed), or 36-year Barkley/Hakeem (19th and 39th).







Scottie left a team where he was 2nd option and only had one guy hogging shots, but could space the floor





Again, you're lying - every center in the league (including Cartwright or Longley) posted up on every possession back then, so the lanes were always clogged, while Pippen told Rachel Nicols he lacks the shooting to space the floor, and he says that's why he couldn't fit in Houston - he compares himself to a bad Westbrick fit, literally:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XmBbmIE_Kxc&t=114s







The same shit you harp on about Love and Bosh happened to pippen after Chicago, smaller roles in different playing styles = worse numbers than you saw from them previously.





2010

Lebron............ #1 PER.... #1 BPM.... #1 VORP.... #1 WS/48
Wade.............. #2 PER.... #2 BPM.... #2 VORP.... #2 WS/48


^^^ It took the top 2 players in the league and top 5 scorers to bump Bosh down to 3rd option, and Kyrie was equal-scoring partner to the #1 player Lebron, but it only took the #49 and 60 scorers (Steve Smith and Rasheed Wallace) to bump Pippen down to 3rd option, or the #19 and 39 scorers in 1999 (36-year Barkley and Hakeem).

Since literally any scorer bumped Pippen down to 2nd option, a Pippen-led team can't have a 2nd scoring option, which is what we saw with the 94' Bulls - they were the only team without a 2nd scoring option in the starting lineup.

[3ba11]

.
.
We can gauge a player's athletic decline by looking at their dunk frequency:




PIPPEN

https://i.makeagif.com/media/4-06-2025/wB0xPG.gif

https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pippesc01.html#all_shooting



Pippen missed half the season in 98' from ailments that he had in 96' and 97', so the dunk stats show that he was more athletic in Houston with higher dunk frequency of 5.6%, compared to 4.8% in Chicago for 97' and 98' combined... In addition to a better health and athletic bounce in Houston, his quickness and All-defense continued as well.. The only thing missing was his all-star offense because he no longer had the system that he grew up in to get 15 ppg of transition or flow points... So there's no need to make excuses for Pippen not living up to his historic contract in 99', or his value being reduced to rubble when he was traded for nothing - the market correction was needed because he couldn't even be 2nd option over the #49 and 60 scorers in the league (Steve Smith, Rasheed), or 36-year Barkley/Hakeem (19th and 39th).

It's easy to forget that the 1990 Bulls won 55 games, but they were building championship chemistry and dynasty culture, while Pippen was handed dynasty culture and ready-made 3-peat system/franchise - he already had what Jordan was trying to build, or what someone like Barkley failed to build when he joined the 55-win Suns in 1992.... Yet despite already having all these advantages like a trust-fund baby, Pippen cratered the team to barely .500 in 95' because is weaker scoring ability hinders a team's capacity to add talent or good scorers beneath him - i.e. any decent scorer that can get 15 ppg outside the system like Steve Smith or Wallace will replace him as 1st option.

Aside from 1994, 55 wins has never been achieved by a lengthy development of the goat dynasty and 3-peat chemistry, so it wasn't a "real" 55 win team and probably the biggest example of everyone knowing the bubble would burst and an inflated regular season record.. No one was surprised when they cratered in the playoffs and were barely .500 the following season because the surprise was that they hadn't cratered right away in the first place... Dynasty culture matters and briefly sustained the weak cast during a honeymoon period of no expectation, while they were also the letdown game on everyone's schedule for 82 games - friends and family of opponents invariably called and cancelled their trips to watch the games when the GOAT suddenly retired.

[3ba11]

.

The system that Pippen grew up in (system player):

1998 Kukoc....... 13 ppg.... 17.3 PER... 3.3 BPM... 3.0 VORP.
1998 Pippen...... 19 ppg.... 20.4 PER... 5.0 BPM... 2.9 VORP


No system (true scoring ability):

1999 Kukoc....... 19 ppg.... 18.6 PER... 3.0 BPM... 2.1 VORP
1999 Pippen...... 14 ppg.... 16.8 PER... 2.5 BPM... 2.3 VORP


Kukoc also led the Bulls in BPM for the 94' Playoffs and was chosen to take the game-winner instead of Pippen on 5 different occasions during 1994 alone... Pippen also averaged 3.0 on 20% in the 4th quarter of the 1994 2nd Round, so Kukoc was almost certainly carrying the Bulls in those 4th quarters... Kukoc was also 2nd on the Bulls in 4th quarter scoring in the 98' Playoffs, so all of this proves that it took a scorer as weak as Kukoc to replace Pippen as the preferred option.. Steve Smith, Rasheed Wallace or fossil Barkley/Hakeem were easily higher options over Pippen as well.

[3ba11]

.
Recent Thread Cliffs


Jordan won 55 games in 1990 because he was building a dynasty chemistry and culture, while Pippen won 55 because he was handed those things... So it wasn't a real 55-win team that was built from scratch or could win 55 every year.. Everyone knew the bubble would burst and it did in the playoffs and following season once the honeymoon period was over and they weren't the "letdown" game on everyone's schedule anymore (opponents' families cancelled their plans to fly-in and see the game when MJ suddenly retired).

Accordingly, history shows that Pippen cratered goat dynasty to barely .500 in less than 18 month... This was despite the Bulls adding a better scorer than Pippen that could average 19/7/5 outside the system and be the closer that MJ never had (Kukoc), while also upgrading every other position like Harper, Kerr, Longley, etc - this was a better cast than MJ ever had, while Pippen also had fully-developed dynasty culture (the team wasn't in development stages), yet he still cratered the team and begged for MJ to return.

Furthermore, Pippen missed half the season in 98' from ailments that he had in 97', so his dunk frequency increased for the 99' Rockets and 00' Blazers compared to his injured years in Chicago, while his quickness and All-defense remained as well... The only thing missing was his all-star offense because he no longer had the system that he grew up in to get 15 ppg of transition or flow points... So there's no need to make excuses for Pippen not living up to his historic contract in 99', or his value being reduced to rubble when he was traded for nothing - the market correction was needed because he couldn't even be 2nd option over the #49 and 60 scorers in the league (Steve Smith, Rasheed), or 36-year Barkley/Hakeem (19th and 39th)..

[StrongLurk]

That's why I added the part about 0/6 matching Horry's gamescore - anyone with a decent sample of Finals could match peak Horry, except Pippen... So I included something for everyone in my post, but you're biased from your denial of being a fraud victim, so you unfairly attacked me.... tsssk tsssk.. :no:

Yeah except you are just cherry picking...again...with everything you do related to MJ/Lebron. No one cares what you write, we all just make fun of you.

So TLDR, Pip is co-goat with MJ for the 90's.

[3ba11]

.
.

R Miller vs. 90' Pistons..... 20.7 on 57%... 17.9 usage
Pippen. vs. 90' Pistons..... 16.6 on 43%... 20.4 usage

R Miller vs 93' Knicks....... 31.5 on 53%... 27.5 usage
Pippen. vs 93' Knicks....... 22.5 on 51%... 28.4 usage

R Miller vs 94' Knicks....... 24.7 on 44%... 30.1 usage
Pippen. vs 94' Knicks....... 21.7 on 41%... 31.7 usage

R Miller vs 95' Magic........ 25.9 on 52%... 26.2 usage
Pippen. vs 95' Magic........ 19.0 on 42%... 23.1 usage

R Miller vs 00' Lakers....... 24.3 on 41%... 25.0 usage
Pippen. vs 00' Lakers....... 15.1 on 43%... 19.5 usage
Pippen. vs 99' Lakers....... 18.3 on 33%... 23.5 usage

R Miller 98' ECF............... 17.4 on 41%... 21.1 usage
Pippen. 98' ECF............... 16.6 on 39%... 26.0 usage


TLDR: Miller outplayed Pippen against the same playoff opponent 6 of 6 times, despite lower shot attempts (usage) in most cases.






Yeah except you are just cherry picking...again...with everything you do related to MJ/Lebron. No one cares what you write, we all just make fun of you.

So TLDR, Pip is co-goat with MJ for the 90's.


by the definition of cherry-picking, 0 for 6 isn't cherry-picking - it's Pippen's entire Finals career... Everyone else with any meaningful sample of Finals matched Horry, except Pippen..

Pippen was also outplayed by Reggie Miller against the same playoff opponent 6 of 6 times (above), or outplayed by Kemp against the 98' Pacers (Kemp averaged 26 on 47% while carrying Big Z and facing max defensive attention, while Pippen averaged 16 on 39% despite facing zero defensive attention and getting carried).

[sdot_thadon]

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We can gauge a player's athletic decline by looking at their dunk frequency:




PIPPEN

https://i.makeagif.com/media/4-06-2025/wB0xPG.gif

https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pippesc01.html#all_shooting



Pippen missed half the season in 98' from ailments that he had in 96' and 97', so the dunk stats show that he was more athletic in Houston with higher dunk frequency of 5.6%, compared to 4.8% in Chicago for 97' and 98' combined... In addition to a better health and athletic bounce in Houston, his quickness and All-defense continued as well.. The only thing missing was his all-star offense because he no longer had the system that he grew up in to get 15 ppg of transition or flow points... So there's no need to make excuses for Pippen not living up to his historic contract in 1999 and his value reduced to rubble when he was traded for nothing - the market correction was needed because he couldn't even be 2nd option over the #49 and 60 scorers in the league (Steve Smith, Rasheed), or 36-year Barkley/Hakeem (19th and 39th).







Again, you're lying - every center in the league (including Cartwright or Longley) posted up on every possession back then, so the lanes were always clogged, while Pippen told Rachel Nicols he lacks the shooting to space the floor, and he says that's why he couldn't fit in Houston - he compares himself to a bad Westbrick fit, literally:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XmBbmIE_Kxc&t=114s







2010

Lebron............ #1 PER.... #1 BPM.... #1 VORP.... #1 WS/48
Wade.............. #2 PER.... #2 BPM.... #2 VORP.... #2 WS/48


^^^ It took the top 2 players in the league and top 5 scorers to bump Bosh down to 3rd option, and Kyrie was equal-scoring partner to the #1 player Lebron, but it only took the #49 and 60 scorers (Steve Smith and Rasheed Wallace) to bump Pippen down to 3rd option, or the #19 and 39 scorers in 1999 (36-year Barkley and Hakeem).

Since literally any scorer bumped Pippen down to 2nd option, a Pippen-led team can't have a 2nd scoring option, which is what we saw with the 94' Bulls - they were the only team without a 2nd scoring option in the starting lineup.

If you beleive any of this nonsense, I've got a bridge to sell ya. You pull the most useless stats to try and prove points man. Anyone who's not a cockgobbler knows Mj and Pippen both weren't the same by the end of the Bulls run. Uncontestable point. And no in Chicago the triangle absolutely did not keep the paint clogged, it's the whole reason the offense worked. It's the triple post offense but the way the Bulls used it without a dominant bug differed to how the Lakers would later use it. Cartwright was decent but he was not sitting on the block all game like Shaq. The Bulls bigs for the most part always had the short jumper outside the paint in their arsenal.

And to address your point about scottie not being able to space the floor in houston? Well it coincided with a specific event. The women's 3 went back to the original distance in 98 and he and Mj along with more marginal shooters became terrible again from 3. Barkely for one was frustrating as hell to watch because he shot more 3s way more than we wanted him to. And it was a low clip but we'd rather have had him in the mid post. But his back was toast as well. One of them you had to be there to understand things.

[3ba11]

If you believe any of this nonsense





There's nothing to "believe" because it's stats - Pippen missed half the season and could barely dunk in 97' and 98' compared to his healthy, bouncy seasons in 99' and 00' - so he was better physically, but simply couldn't play outside the triangle (system player), so he cratered outside of it.






You pull the most useless stats to try and prove points man. Anyone who's not a cockgobbler knows Mj and Pippen both weren't the same by the end of the Bulls run.





You're blatantly lying because everyone in the world thought they should come back and win #7 in 1999 - everyone thought Krause was a j*ckass for breaking them up... No one thought they were "done", which is why Pippen got the historic contract in 1999... Again, you're just lying at this point and have been proven definitively wrong, as usual... Pippen sucked.. Full stop.







And no in Chicago the triangle absolutely did not keep the paint clogged,





The offense had someone posting on every play - it was a triple-post offense, aka everyone posted up, even Steve Kerr for hand-offs, etc.. So there was always a post-up player in the driving lane.. This is public information and obvious via the eye test - it was literally a post offense.. So again, you fell for a fraud and never saw the GOAT... Try to get over it without turning into a compulsive liar about things that are publicly verifiable or common knowledge.

[sdot_thadon]

There's nothing to "believe" because it's stats - Pippen missed half the season and could barely dunk in 97' and 98' compared to his healthy, bouncy seasons in 99' and 00' - so he was better physically, but simply couldn't play outside the triangle (system player), so he cratered outside of it.






You're blatantly lying because everyone in the world thought they should come back and win #7 in 1999 - everyone thought Krause was a j*ckass for breaking them up... No one thought they were "done", which is why Pippen got the historic contract in 1999... Again, you're just lying at this point and have been proven definitively wrong, as usual... Pippen sucked.. Full stop.







The offense had someone posting on every play - it was a triple-post offense, aka everyone posted up, even Steve Kerr for hand-offs, etc.. So there was always a post-up player in the driving lane.. This is public information and obvious via the eye test - it was literally a post offense.. So again, you fell for a fraud and never saw the GOAT... Try to get over it without turning into a compulsive liar about things that are publicly verifiable or common knowledge.

Again just a wall of ineptitude. Low efficiency posting at it finest. The retarded point of your dunk % stat is he took less fga in Houston, so in reality....he dunked less by default. Null and void point made by a post chucker. Also i never said either player was "done" i actually said they were still pretty good in the grand scheme of things yet lesser than what they'd been. I know your shit brains can't compute nuance so I'll let it slide. And everyone from our era knows how the triangle works buddy, not just Mj idolists. It's a triple post offense who's calling card is getting the ball in a certain spot, reading and making a play to guys on your side of the floor. If it doesn't result in a shot, move and repeat. You're a damn fool and should have your Mj lap dance card revoked if you think Bill Cartwright just sat in tbe paint the entire game. Post for engagement, troll etc but for the love of God at least attempt to make sense sometimes.

[3ba11]

Again just a wall of ineptitude. Low efficiency posting at it finest. The retarded point of your dunk % stat is he took less fga in Houston, so in reality....he dunked less by default. Null and void point made by a post chucker. Also i never said either player was "done" i actually said they were still pretty good in the grand scheme of things yet lesser than what they'd been. I know your shit brains can't compute nuance so I'll let it slide. And everyone from our era knows how the triangle works buddy, not just Mj idolists. It's a triple post offense who's calling card is getting the ball in a certain spot, reading and making a play to guys on your side of the floor. If it doesn't result in a shot, move and repeat. You're a damn fool and should have your Mj lap dance card revoked if you think Bill Cartwright just sat in tbe paint the entire game. Post for engagement, troll etc but for the love of God at least attempt to make sense sometimes.


The reason that you're getting so mad is because no one thought the Bulls were done in 1998, so you were wrong on that point, and apparently you don't understand the concept of proportion - Pippen dunked on 5.6% of his shots in 99' and 00', versus 4.8 in Chicago for 97/98.. So he was more athletic in 99' and 00' because he wasn't hurt and missing half the season like 98' or 97.. In addition to being bouncier in 99' and 00', he maintained his quickness with All-Defense selection.. So he wasn't "done" in 99' and 00', but simply didn't have the system that he grew up in to get him 15-20 system points.. Pippen was simply a bad player outside the system, and barely viable in it.

[sdot_thadon]

The reason that you're getting so mad is because no one thought the Bulls were done in 1998, so you were wrong on that point, and apparently you don't understand the concept of proportion - Pippen dunked on 5.6% of his shots in 99' and 00', versus 4.8 in Chicago for 97/98.. So he was more athletic in 99' and 00' because he wasn't hurt and missing half the season like 98' or 97.. In addition to being bouncier in 99' and 00', he maintained his quickness with All-Defense selection.. So he wasn't "done" in 99' and 00', but simply didn't have the system that he grew up in to get him 15-20 system points.. Pippen was simply a bad player outside the system, and barely viable in it.


Why would i be mad? im just correcting the bullshit you flood the forum with. You mistake getting checked by posters here with people being mad, you're just not being allowed to post lies without getting cooked lol. Anyhow, that's incredibly stupid to think you can base athletic ability or whether a skilled player is "done" on that number. If you were there, (big if here because you talk about this subject like you learned from Wikipedia and youtube) you'd know Scottie was injured in 98, specifically in the finals. He played like what? Half? Of the season in 98 due to injury that required surgery. ...before injuring his back in the finals. So yeah he was totally like new heading into Houston and actually dunked more there:facepalm.....except he didn't. Once again the lying ass Jordan stan fudging numbers for fake arguments.

98- dunked 6.3% of his dunks with 44 dunks in 44 games
99- dunked 5.6% of his dunks with 33 dunks in 50 games

And it only declines further from there. The whole reason you attempted to lump 2 years together was the truth didn't fit you narrative. And still lied about the numbers. You've got zero credibility.

1.2 million cumulative post cliffs: OP is an idiot

Thread cliffs: still an idiot
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[RRR3]

Snivelly’s on the ropes! Taking shot after shot! How much more punishment can the poor guy take? :oldlol: