Jokic is 2nd all-time in Defensive Box Plus/Minus

[StrongLurk]

:lol:lol:lol

This dude is literally the GOAT of all advanced stats, he is literally at the top of all of them.

I know people will rush in to critique DBPM, but the guys surrounding Jokic are David Robinson, Mark Eaton, Draymond Green, Ben Wallace, Nate McMillan, Hakeem, Bo Outlaw, Tim Duncan, Marcus Camby, etc. A BUNCH of guys considered to be great defenders.

And yet apparently we still have a bunch of people claiming Jokic is still bad at defense :roll:

[Im Still Ballin]

DBPM is just BPM - OBPM. The truth is that it's hard to separate/isolate offense and defense. A great offensive player limits opponent transition and early offense opportunities. A great defensive player does the opposite but for his team.

What we do know about Jokic is that he has one of the best defensive rebounding impacts on record per his career regularized adjusted (RA) four factors. +5.2% DREB, which is tied #1 all-time in the 1996-97 to 2024-25 age-curve adjusted database. Nikola significantly limits opponents' second-chance opportunities. Additionally, his DFTR (+3.5%) is strong, and he generates a healthy amount of steals, deflections, and kicked ball violations.

Impact, whether offense or defense, comes in various forms. Jokic's defensive value is of the positional, possession-based variety.

Per RA four factors, he has similarities to Nurkic, Vucevic, Nene, Jason Collins, Domantas Sabonis, and Steven Adams. Here's how they rank in DRAPM and RA four factors:

Jokic: +2.0 DRAPM; +0.3% DEFG, -0.3% DTOV, +5.2% DREB, +3.5% DFTR
Nurkic: +3.0 DRAPM; +1.0% DEFG, 0.0% DTOV, +4.7% DREB, +2.9% DFTR
Vucevic: +0.3 DRAPM; -0.8% DEFG, -0.7% DTOV, +4.7% DREB, +3.7% DFTR
Nene: +4.2 DRAPM; +1.2% DEFG, +0.8% DTOV, +4.8% DREB, +2.5% DFTR
Jason Collins: +4.0 DRAPM; +0.9% DEFG, +0.9% DTOV, +4.2% DREB, +3.3% DFTR
Domantas Sabonis: +1.2 DRAPM; 0.0% DEFG, +0.3% DTOV, +3.4% DREB, +2.5% DFTR
Steven Adams: +0.9 DRAPM; 0.0% DEFG, -0.8% DTOV, +4.0% DREB, +3.5% DFTR

Collins and Nene played in a different era so the comparison isn't as straightforward as with the other guys. Jokic is somewhere between Sabonis/Adams and Nurkic. The numbers may undersell Nikola a little bit too because of his large offensive load. He seems to play better defense in fourth quarters when avoiding fouls is less important.

[Kblaze8855]

Luka is ahead of Dwight Howard. Harden is ahead of Dennis Rodman and Gary Payton both. So is Charles Barkley.

there is no advanced stat that doesn’t have a huge number of ridiculous results. People call them outliers but tend to Want to ignore the person they’re trying to prop up is also an outlier when they are miles from where they should be.

[Im Still Ballin]

ESPN article today about Jokic's defense:

https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/44346405/nikola-jokic-quietly-league-analytics-defender


Early in his career, the Nuggets played far more drop coverage on defense, with Jokic often sinking into the paint for rim protection. In recent years, though, he has played much further up against pick-and-rolls -- closer to the arc -- as a way to impede the ball handler and force complicated passes to the roll man.


But for the Joker -- currently on pace to lead NBA centers in deflections (240) for a sixth straight season -- a split second is plenty of time to knock a pass out of the way.

"We have him up at the level [of the screen] a lot, and when teams try to find that pass to the big, to get behind us, Nikola's shown that he has an uncanny ability to break those passes up," Denver coach Michael Malone said. "Hands. Feet. Whatever he's got to use."

And Jokic uses his feet a lot.


Indeed, in recent years no one in the NBA has stopped the game more by kicking the ball than Jokic. Since the start of 2020, the superstar has been whistled for a whopping 127 kicked-ball violations, between his regular-season and postseason games. In the 2022-23 season alone, Jokic logged 56 kicked balls; more than any other team did. For perspective, the league's next-closest player, Chicago Bulls center Nikola Vucevic, has recorded just 66 kicked-ball violations total since the start of 2020.

Aside from the sheer wildness of those numbers -- or the fact that Jokic is extremely balanced, having committed 67 violations with his right foot and 60 with his left -- is the idea that the center has essentially found a cheat code on defense. In being able to time the plays perfectly, Jokic can effectively press pause and short-circuit the opposing team's offense whenever he feels like it, forcing a possession to restart.

[RRR3]

OP is quite slow-witted, yikes.

[RRR3]

Luka is ahead of Dwight Howard. Harden is ahead of Dennis Rodman and Gary Payton both. So is Charles Barkley.

there is no advanced stat that doesn’t have a huge number of ridiculous results. People call them outliers but tend to Want to ignore the person they’re trying to prop up is also an outlier when they are miles from where they should be.
Funny thing is I'm pretty sure the guy who made BPM said to disregard the defensive aspect of it. The best stats for defense would be impact stats like the ones ISB brought up rather than simple box score stats, but I don't fully trust those either, there's no stat for measuring defense that is foolproof yet. Maybe we'll get there one day. I think EPM can be interesting but it can also have weird results like saying Luka is a great defender this year which isn't true at all.

[StrongLurk]

Luka is ahead of Dwight Howard. Harden is ahead of Dennis Rodman and Gary Payton both. So is Charles Barkley.

there is no advanced stat that doesn’t have a huge number of ridiculous results. People call them outliers but tend to Want to ignore the person they’re trying to prop up is also an outlier when they are miles from where they should be.

It's just hilarious to me that Jokic, no matter if it's a legit or "not legit" advanced stat, Jokic is still literally at the time of these ranking from an ALL-TIME perspective.

At some point people just need to put their bias aside and give Jokic credit. It would different if it was just 1 or 2 random stats, but Jokic is tops in like 10 advanced stats, probably even more than MJ and Lebron.

[RRR3]

It's just hilarious to me that Jokic, no matter if it's a legit or "not legit" advanced stat, Jokic is still literally at the time of these ranking from an ALL-TIME perspective.

At some point people just need to put their bias aside and give Jokic credit. It would different if it was just 1 or 2 random stats, but Jokic is tops in like 10 advanced stats, probably even more than MJ and Lebron.
His career is still ongoing and he hasn't declined yet. LeBron had better advanced stats when he was younger too. You really struggle with critical thinking. Or you're just a troll. I mean you have to be stupid or trolling to claim Jokic is some godly defender, watch him play ffs. And impact data which is much better than BPM for measuring defense does not think he's some great defender.

[StrongLurk]

ESPN article today about Jokic's defense:

https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/44346405/nikola-jokic-quietly-league-analytics-defender

Great stuff.

I still can't believe we have so many people clinging onto the idea that Jokic is a "bad" defender. Sure, he's below average at specifically rim protection, but he's damn good at everything else because he's an extremely high BBIQ player. He is elite at steals, deflections, kick-balls, positioning, knowing the opponents offensive schemes plays (same thing Lebron get's legendary hype for).

[StrongLurk]

His career is still ongoing and he hasn't declined yet. LeBron had better advanced stats when he was younger too. You really struggle with critical thinking. Or you're just a troll. I mean you have to be stupid or trolling to claim Jokic is some godly defender, watch him play ffs. And impact data which is much better than BPM for measuring defense does not think he's some great defender.

You can JUST look at the peaks of MJ, Lebron, and Jokic, and Jokic's is literally just as good. So yeah, he hasn't had his decline yet, but he has factually reached a level of peak MJ and Lebron. The only difference is Jokic didn't play in a weaker era (90's), nor did he team hop like Lebron, so he simply won't "win" as much.

REMEMBER - Jokic has NEVER had a single teammate even make an all-star game. He'd be winning every year if he had a supporting cast like Tatum does on the Celtics.

[RRR3]

DPM is literally just BPM-OBPM, using it for measuring defense is braindead.

[RRR3]

You can JUST look at the peaks of MJ, Lebron, and Jokic, and Jokic's is literally just as good. So yeah, he hasn't had his decline yet, but he has factually reached a level of peak MJ and Lebron. The only difference is Jokic didn't play in a weaker era (90's), nor did he team hop like Lebron, so he simply won't "win" as much.

REMEMBER - Jokic has NEVER had a single teammate even make an all-star game. He'd be winning every year if he had a supporting cast like Tatum does on the Celtics.
He had Jamal Murray play like peak Damian Lillard in two different playoff runs, one of which he only had to face 45 win teams :yaohappy:

LeBron won 66 games with literal dogshit, Jokic would win like 45 max with the 09 Cavs. Again, if you have to use stats like BPM that overrate the shit out of centers to make your argument, you already lost. LeBron is the best ever in RAPM, which is not based on box score.

[StrongLurk]

He had Jamal Murray play like peak Damian Lillard in two different playoff runs, one of which he only had to face 45 win teams :yaohappy:

LeBron won 66 games with literal dogshit, Jokic would win like 45 max with the 09 Cavs. Again, if you have to use stats like BPM that overrate the shit out of centers to make your argument, you already lost. LeBron is the best ever in RAPM, which is not based on box score.

Wow, TWO whole playoff runs? Wow, what crazy help Jokic has had.

Let's see, in 2020 (one year before Jokic's prime started) he happened to make the WCF (losing to eventual champs Lakers) when Murray played welll.

Murray then missed the next TWO postseasons.

Murray then played well again in 2023 and what do you know? Jokic won a ring/FMVP and had one of the best playoff runs of all time.

In 2024, Murray is clearly hobbled in the playoffs and struggles.

So basically when Jokic gets ANY help at all (in a supremely stacked NBA), he makes WCF or wins a ring.

Lebron's had SO much more talented supporting casts than Jokic has. Same with MJ relative to 90's talent.

[RRR3]

Wow, TWO whole playoff runs? Wow, what crazy help Jokic has had.

Let's see, in 2020 (one year before Jokic's prime started) he happened to make the WCF (losing to eventual champs Lakers) when Murray played welll.

Murray then missed the next TWO postseasons.

Murray then played well again in 2023 and what do you know? Jokic won a ring/FMVP and had one of the best playoff runs of all time.

In 2024, Murray is clearly hobbled in the playoffs and struggles.

So basically when Jokic gets ANY help at all (in a supremely stacked NBA), he makes WCF or wins a ring.

Lebron's had SO much more talented supporting casts than Jokic has. Same with MJ relative to 90's talent.
LeBron won a ring with his second option averaging 15.9 PPG on awful efficiency :lol

Jokic loses in the first round when he gets that kind of help. But muh big names

[StrongLurk]

LeBron won a ring with his second option averaging 15.9 PPG on awful efficiency :lol

Jokic loses in the first round when he gets that kind of help. But muh big names

Well one, Lebron is a GOAT. But two, Lebron was incredibly lucky to win in 2013. Ray Allen's 3 in game 6 was legitimately a miracle shot. He misses that shot probably 9/10 times.

Either way, Lebron has had a lot more help for his other rings than Jokic has had. Also no chance a prime Jokic ever chokes a finals series away like Lebron in 2011.

[RRR3]

Well one, Lebron is a GOAT. But two, Lebron was incredibly lucky to win in 2013. Ray Allen's 3 in game 6 was legitimately a miracle shot. He misses that shot probably 9/10 times.

Either way, Lebron has had a lot more help for his other rings than Jokic has had. Also no chance a prime Jokic ever chokes a finals series away like Lebron in 2011.
LeBron was lucky a role player hit a shot that wouldn't have been necessary if his teammates had performed as expected, but the guy who faced nothing but 45 win teams wasn't. Got it.

[StrongLurk]

LeBron was lucky a role player hit a shot that wouldn't have been necessary if his teammates had performed as expected, but the guy who faced nothing but 45 win teams wasn't. Got it.

I can't believe I actually have to argue against Lebron here since Lebron is my guy. But yeah, Lebron WAS lucky Ray Allen hit that 3. If you had any memory, you would remember that Lebron himself had ONE good game through the first FIVE games of the 2013 finals. FIVE whole games buddy, so knock off the crap that it was his only teammates not performing well.

Outside of game 4, LeBron was bad in games 1-3 and game 5. If Ray Allen doesn't hit that three then Lebron gets NO chance to redeem himself in his huge game 7 of the finals and it would be yet another BAD finals series for Lebron (which would make 3 out of 4 bad finals at that time). Ray's shot was HUGE, it can't be understated.

Also newsflash, Lebron team hopped twice on stacked teams that completely out-talented everyone in the east for 8 straight years. Please stop with the "woe is LeBron". He's clearly played with more talent than Jokic ever did. Also what's funny is you try to downplay the 2023 run, but it was Jokic who SWEPT LEBRON in the damn WCF right before he won a ring :lol

[RRR3]

There's no use arguing with someone who thinks Jokic is the GOAT, you're just a different flavor of 3ball at this point.

[StrongLurk]

There's no use arguing with someone who thinks Jokic is the GOAT, you're just a different flavor of 3ball at this point.

Well, he's literally one of three players (MJ/Lebron too) to lead the league in a bunch of advanced stats five years in a row, and he clearly passes the eye test from a skill perspective. Sooo...why so against it?

Again the guy is at the TOP of tons of advanced stats all time. You are acting like that's not noteworthy.

[Im Still Ballin]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QVPzF57GqOQ&pp=ygUgdGhpbmtpbmcgYmFza2V0YmFsbCBuaWtvbGEgam9raWM %3D

[Xiao Yao You]

:lol:lol:lol

This dude is literally the GOAT of all advanced stats, he is literally at the top of all of them.

I know people will rush in to critique DBPM, but the guys surrounding Jokic are David Robinson, Mark Eaton, Draymond Green, Ben Wallace, Nate McMillan, Hakeem, Bo Outlaw, Tim Duncan, Marcus Camby, etc. A BUNCH of guys considered to be great defenders.

And yet apparently we still have a bunch of people claiming Jokic is still bad at defense :roll:

Go watch eaton and tell me he was great. Tall doesnt mean great. He sucked

[SouBeachTalents]

Go watch eaton and tell me he was great. Tall doesnt mean great. He sucked
Better than Toody.

[Xiao Yao You]

Better than Toody.

Watch them both and get back to me. :roll:

[ImKobe]

Jokic is not a good defensive player.

[Kblaze8855]

Better than Toody.

Prime:


https://www.hostpic.org/images/2504052045220379.jpeg




https://youtube.com/shorts/dpmvDX5Dt7c?si=75hDzLVA67v39cwe








It’s a different feeling. I like going to a city, picking up a paper somewhere and seeing where the key to the game is going to be getting Mark Eaton out on the floor, making him play one-on-one defense. It’s satisfying to me, considering some of the players I have on my team--Adrian Dantley, Darrell Griffith--and they’re more concerned about me than they are about them. Set up on offense to stop me ? It’s hard to believe.”

It’s crazy but it’s true. He wasn’t good enough to play in high school or good enough to play at UCLA, but the Milwaukee Bucks recently designed their entire offense to take Eaton out of the game. The Bucks put their center near midcourt and just kept him there, making Eaton come out and guard him.
“You have to get him away from the basket,” Indiana Coach George Irvine said.






learned one tonight anyway: Never challenge Mark Eaton. The Nets did, repeatedly, and they lost a 22-point lead and finally fell in overtime to the Utah Jazz, 110-104, at Byrne Meadowlands Arena.


Eaton, Utah's 7-foot-4-inch center, stood his ground against an almost continuous assault down the middle by the Nets. Most of the time, he was successful, rejecting eight shots and ultimately forcing the Nets to shoot from the outside - from where they usually missed. In the overtime, they made only 2 of 11 shots.
''Eaton proved tonight that when you take the ball down the middle, he's an absolutely superb defender,'' said Stan Albeck, the Net coach. ''We kept telling our guys to pull up and take the jump shot, but they kept forcing it in and Eaton kept blocking it.''

[Kblaze8855]

Past his prime




Utah (51-31) ended the season Sunday with the Midwest Division championship and the league's stingiest defense. The Jazz allowed only 99.7 points per game and held opponents to a shooting percentage of .434, which is the lowest in the league since the .425 achieved by the 1973-74 Milwaukee Bucks. Unlike most clubs, Utah seldom double-teams and rarely switches. Instead, the Jazz slant the action on the court to Eaton, funneling opponents down the lane and into his 90-inch wingspan, which is anchored by a pair of size 17 feet. "He blocks up the middle like a tree," says Seattle forward Xavier McDaniel.


"You think of defense, you think of the Jazz," forward Karl Malone says. "You think of why, you think of Mark."

At one point or another, almost every player in the NBA has been Eaton alive. Atlanta's Dominique Wilkins has penetrated and, glimpsing the Biggest E ahead, adjusted his shot. It cleared the backboard. Kevin Johnson of Phoenix has clanged a 14-foot jumper off Eaton's elbow. "He's the only guy in the league who really tries to guard the whole team and not just his man," says Suns center Tom Chambers. "No matter what you do against Utah, you always have to deal with Mark."






Blocking shots is the only natural talent Eaton has in basketball, and the Jazz feed off it like a gambler off a sure thing.
Says Utah point guard John Stockton, who led the league in steals (3.21 per game), "He makes people so nervous they don't have time to look for an open man. So if you stay in the play, even though you may have been beaten, there's a good chance the pass will be thrown to you."
"If there was a stat called 'Just for being there," Mark would be a 10 every night," says Jazz guard Darrell Griffith. Adds Philadelphia coach Jim Lynam, "Whatever his blocks are, square them. That's how many intimidations he has."

[Xiao Yao You]

You really think eaton could play today? I still dont think anyone but frank layden would have played the guy. Watch some footage and tell me how great he was. He was tall and clueless. He had a hard time following the ball. He could keep his arms in the air in an era when they were determined to pound it down low. Hed turn around not knowing where the ball was and theyd shoot it against his hand. What a talent he was! Just an awful player

[Xiao Yao You]

It is no coincidence the jazz best years were after he retired. No more 4 on 5bat thevoffensive end. Defensive versatility

[Kblaze8855]

I don’t know what it is about communicating through text that makes people ask if you “Really” Believe something that was nowhere in what you just said. I don’t care at all what he would do 40 years after his prime. It’s irrelevant. Just like I don’t care what a three-point specialist would do in 1971.

It’s hard to block 14 shots and make no difference in the outcome of the game. The players on both sides were saying exactly that which It’s probably why he was winning defensive player of the year awards.

If the guy goes out and has 14 points, blocks nine shots, Changes 16 more, pulls down 19 rebounds and his team wins by three it’s a pretty hard argument to make that he had nothing to do with it.

Which is why not a single person then was making it

I watched him absolutely destroy the offense against us in Jordan‘s athletes prime.

He played in the time people would not stop going to the basket. Being the biggest impediment to finishing around it made him effective. What he would be 40 years later when people would just shoot a three is irrelevant.

[Xiao Yao You]

I don’t know what it is about communicating through text that makes people ask if you “Really” Believe something that was nowhere in what you just said. I don’t care at all what he would do 40 years after his prime. It’s irrelevant. Just like I don’t care what a three-point specialist would do in 1971.

It’s hard to block 14 shots and make no difference in the outcome of the game. The players on both sides were saying exactly that which It’s probably why he was winning defensive player of the year awards.

If the guy goes out and has 14 points, blocks nine shots, Changes 16 more, pulls down 19 rebounds and his team wins by three it’s a pretty hard argument to make that he had nothing to do with it.

Which is why not a single person then was making it

I watched him absolutely destroy the offense against us in Jordan‘s athletes prime.

He played in the time people would not stop going to the basket. Being the biggest impediment to finishing around it made him effective. What he would be 40 years later when people would just shoot a three is irrelevant.

The jazz being better once he retired is irrelevant too i suppose? He shot 45% from the field on dunks and short hook shots. They tried to leave him at half court so he could get back on d. Their offense suffered as did the team. If you watched him and actually thought he was good than you arent as smart as i thought. I realize most here never even saw him play. I did. A lot. He was awful no matter how many shots they threw at his extended arms. If you want to say he is better than a player from this era than it is relevant. Gobert might not have been as good in the 80s as today but he could have played. Eaton couldnt play today and i still have a hard time imagining anyone but the comedian playing him even in the 80s

[tpols]

Wait a second, we've of heard of The Bum...who is the comedian?

[Xiao Yao You]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frank_Layden

[warriorfan]

“He only blocked shots because players shot it into his arms….”

:roll: :roll: :roll:

wtf lmao

[k0kakw0rld]

Misleading stats. The man is a cone out there. Switch him to defend a guard and he's lost. He is not a great rjm protector. Advanced stats are bullish!t

[tpols]

“He only blocked shots because players shot it into his arms….”

:roll: :roll: :roll:

wtf lmao


:lol

I think what he means is there's like... a shot you block where its a timing thing and you come out of nowhere and swat somebody... vs just standing under the rim with your hands up basically covering it id imagine Eatons standing reach was close to 10 feet and with the slightest jump would be way over.

[tpols]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frank_Layden

You've been holding a grudge against that man since 1988?

:biggums:

[Xiao Yao You]

:lol

I think what he means is there's like... a shot you block where its a timing thing and you come out of nowhere and swat somebody... vs just standing under the rim with your hands up basically covering it id imagine Eatons standing reach was close to 10 feet and with the slightest jump would be way over.

Wouldnt be more than the slightest jump because he was a big oof

[Kblaze8855]

The jazz being better once he retired is irrelevant too i suppose? He shot 45% from the field on dunks and short hook shots. They tried to leave him at half court so he could get back on d. Their offense suffered as did the team. If you watched him and actually thought he was good than you arent as smart as i thought. I realize most here never even saw him play. I did. A lot. He was awful no matter how many shots they threw at his extended arms. If you want to say he is better than a player from this era than it is relevant. Gobert might not have been as good in the 80s as today but he could have played. Eaton couldnt play today and i still have a hard time imagining anyone but the comedian playing him even in the 80s


Of course, being better after he retired old and washed is irrelevant. The Lakers literally began the 33 game win streak that led to their first title the very day after Elgin Baylor retired mid season. They gave him a ring out of respect, but they literally had the greatest run in basketball history begin very second he was gone as he watched game one of the streak court side after his pre game announcement. Doesn’t say anything about him in his prime.

Nor for that matter does winning 53 games after they won 47 his last season when he was on the bench or 55 his last season as a starter when they made the conference finals with him starting. They got back to the conference finals again years later. They got beat in the first round as a 50 something win team with him and they got beat in the first round as a 60 win team after he retired.

They made the conference finals with him and then years after he retired.

Years after that, they finally broke through on a team that had 10 players he never played with.

pretty hard to paint a picture that he was the issue when it took a complete roster overhaul to do anything they didn’t do while he was there.

And I don’t care if he’s better than Gobert or not. Rudy Is definitely more mobile and he plays in an era where they don’t give stiffs like him the ball to do anything but dunk it so guys like him don’t get the chance to take away as much ad they used to.

he wouldn’t beat him out for a starting spot today. I’m sure in this completely different league. Which…again… Means absolutely nothing far as what he did in his league.




https://youtu.be/SKOV0u5_0N0?si=eJFz4apNl6nSEw69


And he had 9/14/7blocks and 3 assists previous time we played them.

I obviously couldn’t watch him play everyone else back in those days, but I watched him play the Bulls and he took us apart on a number of occasions. Not always with those numbers, but I actually remember watching the guy play and he was unbelievably disruptive.

You can argue it’s because the league he was in wouldn’t adjust but you can’t argue he wasn’t doing it, which is exactly why Malone Stockton and so many opponents say the exact same thing.

you can say they threw the ball into his hands all you want. If all it took the block 12 shots and change 20 more in the NBA was being tall teams could’ve replaced a lot of the stiffs with guys his size. There were an awful lot of bums who Chuck Nevitt didn’t displace.

there’s always been tall ass people walking around. Most of them won’t keep Michael Jordan out of the lane.

NBA caliber athletes look at people like that as a joke to dunk on. Being tall on its own, doesn’t make you intimidating to NBA athletes. Consistently being in the right place to disrupt drives and block shots makes you intimidating.

he was game planned against. Bad players in the NBA don’t have the opposing game plan adjusted to account for them.

You block or alter 20 shots you made a difference. And when your team still scores 110 it’s hard to say you kept them from scoring while you did it.

[Xiao Yao You]

You've been holding a grudge against that man since 1988?

:biggums:

Thinking someone was a bad coach is a grudge? Jazz would have beat the lakers and prevented the first repeat in 20 years if not for layden and ivaroni. Another of his favorite stiffs

[Xiao Yao You]

Nevitt didnt displaceanyone because he wasnt 290 lbs. And was on a great team with a real coach not a comedian. Bol certainly was more disruptive but no coach thought it was a good idea to have him play huge minutes

[Xiao Yao You]

Never painted the picture that he was the whole problem. Started with a cheap owner, a comedian in the front office hiring himself, hansen, paultz, ivaroni...