What did Lebron do without joining a 1st option & franchise player from another team? [Archive] - Message Board Basketball Forum

3ba11

04-18-2025, 04:48 PM

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He did nothing because history shows that Lebron, SGA, Luka, Trae and other ball-dominators:

- can't win with normal rosters of 1 franchise player (needs 1st options from other teams)

- can't produce "great teams", such as dynasties (3 in 5), or dominant title runs (4 losses or less)

- can't develop young players*

- aren't elite off-ball players as required by the ball movement systems that every dynasty used

* they increase everyone's assisted field goals (assisted rate), aka "turn everyone into spot-up shooter", which craters their assists and causes low assist teams over time.. These low assist teams caused assist deficits for every series loss of Lebron's playoff career, so weak ball movement is the Achilles' heel of Lebron's game and all ball-dominators.

Meticode

04-18-2025, 04:55 PM

I'm not sure who's more insufferable. The LeBron stans or the ones that hate him so much they talk about him more than the stans do.

Hey Yo

04-18-2025, 05:14 PM

LeBron has his own dynasty.... 2 teams, 3 titles, 3fmvp in 5yrs.

bizil

04-18-2025, 05:18 PM

Personally, I NEVER has problem with Bron going to South Beach. He did all he could do with the Cavs the first go around. They said he tried to get top free agent to join him with the Cavs. Then when you see KG, PP, and Ray joined up, it DOESN'T TAKE ROCKET SCIENCE to know the Cavs would gonna be outgunned. When he got the Cavs to the Finals vs. the Spurs that was a miracle. But KG-Pierce-Ray TRUMPED the Pistons. Because you another level of offensive firepower TO GO WITH that great Celtics defense. KG-Pierce-Ray were superstar level players while the Pistons didn't feature one superstar level player.

What Kd did going to GSW was WAY WORSE!! I don't knock KD for wanting to leave OKC. BUT OKC was right there. Competitive nature wise, we wanted to see KD come back at GSW and get over the hump. BUT if he wanted to leave to take down GSW, that would have been fine by me. Sorry I just don't see legends of KD's caliber OR HIGHER doing what he did. Would been like MJ joining the Pistons back in the day. Or Dr. J joining the Lakers. They wanna KICK THE TEAM'S ASS that breaks their heart! By any means necessary!! Because their teams were close to the finish line. And GSW vs. OKC was looking to be the DEFINITIVE RIVALRY out West going forward. But if KD wanted to leave OKC DON'T JOIN GSW!!

Hoon

04-18-2025, 05:31 PM

Full Court

04-18-2025, 06:40 PM

LeBron has his own dynasty.... 2 teams, 3 titles, 3fmvp in 5yrs.

^Low standards.

Never three-peated. Most choke jobs of all time by FAR. More losing when it counts than winning.

"His own dynasty..."

https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Fc.tenor.com%2FyOlQSuNZQKIAAAAM%2F laughing-michael-jordan.gif&f=1&nofb=1&ipt=4d64bb1aebde06e0735e0d4b94b5a355d47b9ef2ac32c1 e7fe43920c16e90f67

ShawkFactory

04-18-2025, 06:42 PM

Holy shit :lol

3ba11

04-18-2025, 07:09 PM

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05' HUGHES......... 21.6 PER... 0.157 WS/48... 3.7 VORP... 4.3 BPM... 22/6/5.... 1st Team All-Defense
90' PIPPEN........... 16.3 PER... 0.087 WS/48... 3.0 VORP... 1.8 BPM... 16/6/5.... No All-Defense

KD’s move just felt different. LeBron had squeezed every last drop out of Cleveland, so joining Miami to chase a ring made sense. But when KD jumped to Golden State, it felt like he hopped on the rival’s team instead of battling them.

Kyrie is the first sidekick to outplay the league MVP, and Lebron had 6 straight preseason favorites from 11' to 16', which is twice as many as the previous record... So Lebron had unprecedented help that required someone to respond and KD did.. Lebron's problem is that his "cancer skillset" (described in the OP) is a perennial loser with every type of good team, such as preseason favorites (3-4), Finals teams (4-6), all-star teammates (4-7), and 1 or 2 seeds (4-5).

And to make his first playoffs, Lebron needed the East all-star center and an acquisition that was better than 1990 Pippen on both sides of the ball (above)... MJ would obviously 3-peat with all that... Yet Lebron only had a 45-win team until he added another all-star in 2009 and then a 20k scorer that outplayed Lebron in the 07' 1st Round (Jamison)..

So it's pretty nice to have a better scorer than Pippen as your THIRD option and then better defensive ranking than the 1st three-peat Bulls.. FYI - Lebron didn't get all-defense until 2009, so those great Cavs' defenses were due to teammates with all-defense on their resume (Ben Wallace, Varejao, Snow, Hughes), while Zydrunas averaged 2 blocks.

Full Court

04-18-2025, 09:47 PM

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05' HUGHES......... 21.6 PER... 0.157 WS/48... 3.7 VORP... 4.3 BPM... 22/6/5.... 1st Team All-Defense
90' PIPPEN........... 16.3 PER... 0.087 WS/48... 3.0 VORP... 1.8 BPM... 16/6/5.... No All-Defense

Kyrie is the first sidekick to outplay the league MVP, and Lebron had 6 straight preseason favorites from 11' to 16', which is twice as many as the previous record... So Lebron had unprecedented help that required someone to respond and KD did.. Lebron's problem is that his "cancer skillset" (described in the OP) is a perennial loser with every type of good team, such as preseason favorites (3-4), Finals teams (4-6), all-star teammates (4-7), and 1 or 2 seeds (4-5).

And to make his first playoffs, Lebron needed the East all-star center and an acquisition that was better than 1990 Pippen on both sides of the ball (above)... MJ would obviously 3-peat with all that... Yet Lebron only had a 45-win team until he added another all-star in 2009 and then a 20k scorer that outplayed Lebron in the 07' 1st Round (Jamison)..

So it's pretty nice to have a better scorer than Pippen as your THIRD option and then better defensive ranking than the 1st three-peat Bulls.. FYI - Lebron didn't get all-defense until 2009, so those great Cavs' defenses were due to teammates with all-defense on their resume (Ben Wallace, Varejao, Snow, Hughes), while Zydrunas averaged 2 blocks.

Nobody in the history of the sport has acheived so little while being given so much. History will not be kind to him after he retires.

John8204

04-19-2025, 06:41 AM

KD’s move just felt different. LeBron had squeezed every last drop out of Cleveland, so joining Miami to chase a ring made sense. But when KD jumped to Golden State, it felt like he hopped on the rival’s team instead of battling them.

I think it's pretty obvious the differences between Lebron going to Miami and KD going to GSW. The Warriors were a championship team and the Thunder were title contenders. The Cav's it was just Lebron he wasn't going to get over the hump with that team. Also it's not like Bosh and Wade were doing great work on their own, I think they won a single playoff series between them (after Shaq left Miami)

BarberSchool

04-19-2025, 06:50 AM

https://i.ibb.co/N63H0nz7/IMG-2967.jpg

HylianNightmare

04-19-2025, 07:21 AM

As a sebum hater I'll admit dragging those bums to the finals in 07was impressive

ImKobe

04-19-2025, 07:27 AM

It's facts. He won nothing without teaming up with Wade, Kyrie, AD and now Luka. All those guys were franchise players who were 1st options and in their primes.

It's crazy to me that Jordan won 6 without ever having a franchise superstar-level player as a teammate.

bizil

04-21-2025, 07:35 PM

MJ is still the GOAT in my eyes. While I consider Pip an all time great and a top 10 GOAT SF, he WASN'T an alpha dog level scorer. On top of the supestars u named, Bron ALSO played with K Love and Bosh. Two guys ALWAYS getting at least 20+ PPG and 10+ RPG consitently before teaming with Bron. They are ALSO superior scorers to Pippen. The TWO BEST SCORERS MJ played with on the Bulls were Orlando Woolridge and and Pippen. When it comes to all the dynasty type of teams in NBA history (Russ Celtics, Showtime Lakers, Bird Celtics, MJ's Bulls, Shaq-Kobe Lakers, Duncan Spurs, Steph's GSW), MJ BY FAR had the least amount of offensive firepower on his side. It's not even CLOSE! Also Bron has NEVER BEEN a part of a dynasty.

MJ was the UTLIMATE BLEND of alpha dog scoring ability, killer instinct, and all around ability. MJ put u a 30+PPG, 8APG, and 8RPG season BEFORE Pippen because of age. That's where MJ was taking his game to. So MJ was putting up Bron-esque numbers back in the 80's. Only Oscar was putting up those type of numbers before MJ at the time.

If Pip NEVER came of age, MJ would have put up MORE OF THOSE SEASONS! And just to shut EVERYBODY'S MOUTH, he could have put up a triple double season at some point just like Oscar. BUT once Pip came of age and Phil put in the triangle, it enable MJ to PLAY IN THE FLOW more while still dominating. Pip was on par with MJ or close in terms of rebounding, defense, and passing ability.

And would end up redefining the SF position by TRULY STAMPING the point forward type of star. So Pip could be the dominant floor game guy (defense, rebounding, passing) while MJ could save energy to dominate scoring. BECAUSE HE WAS THE ONLY ALPHA DOG SCORER in the Bulls, it was what for was best for business. MJ ONLY PLAYED with two HOFers in their prime. Pip and Rodman. When you look at the other top 10 GOAT legends, that's BY FAR is the least amount of HOF caliber help.

On one hand I don't blame Bron for leaving the Cavs and Heat to look for greener pastures. What KD did was WAS WEAKER than what Bron did. BUT in a GOAT debate, ALL THE CARDS ARE ON THE DAMN TABLE!! If Bron had 7-8 rings at this point ON TOP of the numbers he has now, I would give him the GOAT title. That would have beee enough to SUPERCEDED him jumping from team to team. People gotta realize if you pass MJ by, THAT MEANS you are the GOAT of American teams sports. Not just the NBA! Hell for that matter, I got Brady over Bron on the GOAT AMERICAN team sports charts too.

k0kakw0rld

04-21-2025, 11:18 PM

Meticode

04-22-2025, 07:21 AM

LeBron won an NBA title without another superstar and for a city that never had a NBA Championship in it's 46 year history up until that point.

3ba11

04-22-2025, 10:23 AM

I think it's pretty obvious the differences between Lebron going to Miami and KD going to GSW. The Warriors were a championship team and the Thunder were title contenders. The Cav's it was just Lebron he wasn't going to get over the hump with that team. Also it's not like Bosh and Wade were doing great work on their own, I think they won a single playoff series between them (after Shaq left Miami)

Bullshit.

Lebron had an unprecedented advantage that required another unprecedented advantage to compete (KD's Warriors)... The only difference is that Lebron's unprecedented advantage lasted twice as long from 11-16' vs 17-19'.

Again, Kyrie is the first sidekick to outplay the league MVP, and Lebron had 6 straight preseason favorites from 11' to 16', which is twice as many as the previous record... So Lebron had unprecedented help that required someone to respond and KD did

3ba11

04-22-2025, 10:28 AM

SGA who plays like MJ/Kobe can't win with normal rosters because his team wasn't built organically?

Chet, J Dub, Aaron Wiggins, Cason Wallace (traded on draft day), Jaylin Williams. All drafted not recruited. SGA plays next to 0 all nba player. (Maybe J Dub but that marks his 1st season at that level.

SGA is a dumb ball-dominator with a 20% assisted rate - he's only assisted on 20% of his FG's compared to 45-60% for MJ or Kobe.. MJ and Kobe were the goat OFF-guards that played off-ball, while SGA is super-ball-dominant (live dribbling) and therefore scores mostly unassisted by teammates (solo missions).

If you think that SGA and MJ play the same, then you should find another hobby because you have no idea what you're watching. It's like being unable to tell the difference between an orange and a mango

ShawkFactory

04-22-2025, 12:43 PM

SGA is a dumb ball-dominator with a 20% assisted rate - he's only assisted on 20% of his FG's compared to 45-60% for MJ or Kobe.. MJ and Kobe were the goat OFF-guards that played off-ball, while SGA is super-ball-dominant (live dribbling) and therefore scores mostly unassisted by teammates (solo missions).

If you think that SGA and MJ play the same, then you should find another hobby because you have no idea what you're watching. It's like being unable to tell the difference between an orange and a mango

Kobe was in the 32-40% assisted rate most of his career. Had a couple one-offs in the low 40s. But yea..

FKAri

04-22-2025, 12:50 PM

What did Lebron do without joining a 1st option & franchise player from another team?

Won more rings than anyone in NBA history

sdot_thadon

04-22-2025, 12:52 PM

Again, Kyrie is the first sidekick to outplay the league MVP, and Lebron had 6 straight preseason favorites from 11' to 16', which is twice as many as the previous record... So Lebron had unprecedented help that required someone to respond and KD did

Oddly enough it seems Kyrie was only able to achieve this level of play alongside Lebron, strange coincidence isn't it? After leaving the cavs Kyrie played with Tatum, Brown, Kd, Harden, and Luka. Yet was only able to reach that level with one guy......hmm.

3ba11

04-22-2025, 04:02 PM

Kobe was in the 32-40% assisted rate most of his career. Had a couple one-offs in the low 40s. But yea..

There's a massive difference between 20% (SGA) and a guy that averaged 42% and reached high 40's... It's night and day so you made my point by bringing up how much lower SGA's assisted rate is compared to Kobe - Kobe was never in the 20's

3ba11

04-22-2025, 04:04 PM

Oddly enough it seems Kyrie was only able to achieve this level of play alongside Lebron, strange coincidence isn't it? After leaving the cavs Kyrie played with Tatum, Brown, Kd, Harden, and Luka. Yet was only able to reach that level with one guy......hmm.

Kyrie outplayed "young MJ" to make the Finals without Lebron, which Pippen couldn't do (make the Finals without Jordan)...

And Pippen had a 17 point lead in the 4th quarter and still couldn't make it without MJ... Meanwhile, 3 of Lebron's teammates made the Finals without him (Kyrie, Wade, Love).

SouBeachTalents

04-22-2025, 04:08 PM

Kyrie outplayed "young MJ" to make the Finals without Lebron, which Pippen couldn't do (make the Finals without Jordan)...

And Pippen had a 17 point lead in the 4th quarter and still couldn't make it without MJ... Meanwhile, 3 of Lebron's teammates made the Finals without him (Kyrie, Wade, Love).
So did Jordan's, actually, 4 of his made it without him (Rodman, Grant, Harper, Kerr)

3ba11

04-22-2025, 04:15 PM

So did Jordan's, actually, 4 of his made it without him (Rodman, Grant, Harper, Kerr)

A bunch of "horry's", so who cares.

Pippen didn't, while Kyrie, Wade and Love did....

And Wade/Kyrie made it by dominating (something Pippen never did), and outplaying the league's top players (something Pippen wasn't even EXPECTED to do).

SouBeachTalents

04-22-2025, 04:24 PM

3ba11

04-22-2025, 04:30 PM

"Dominating" Kyrie: 22/4/5 on 57%TS
1991-1993 Pippen: 20/8/6 on 54%TS

Not even including the massive gap in defense. Pippen also crushes him in advanced metrics, and outscored Ewing, Isiah, Magic & Price h2h as well.

You just showed how peak Pippen scored less on less efficiency than an old and banged-up Kyrie, with literally zero clutch - Luka would never make the Finals with Pippen... Pippen's scoring ability in the halfcourt was Jared Vanderbilt

3ba11

04-22-2025, 04:52 PM

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Kyrie vs "MJ" (Ant) in 2024 WCF

27.0 on 49%... goat clutch (made Finals without Lebron)

When Lebron finally beat his bully (Celtics) in the 2011 ECF

Wade....... 30 and 6 APG
Lebron..... 28 and 5 APG

Wade and Kyrie made the Finals without Lebron by dominating

SouBeachTalents

04-22-2025, 05:14 PM

You just showed how peak Pippen scored less on less efficiency than an old and banged-up Kyrie, with literally zero clutch - Luka would never make the Finals with Pippen... Pippen's scoring ability in the halfcourt was Jared Vanderbilt
But those numbers would equal 16/3 in prior eras

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?521342-Does-Cade-Cunningham-have-the-potential-to-be-a-top-10-point-guard-of-all-time&p=14994993&viewfull=1#post14994993

John8204

04-22-2025, 07:34 PM

Bullshit.

Lebron had an unprecedented advantage that required another unprecedented advantage to compete (KD's Warriors)... The only difference is that Lebron's unprecedented advantage lasted twice as long from 11-16' vs 17-19'.

Again, Kyrie is the first sidekick to outplay the league MVP, and Lebron had 6 straight preseason favorites from 11' to 16', which is twice as many as the previous record... So Lebron had unprecedented help that required someone to respond and KD did

You keep acting like Lebrons teammates were world beaters. Wade won a title with a top ten all-time PG and C and then did nothing else until Lebron. Bosh was a 1 and done guy, AD is a 1 and done guy, Kyrie is a Hall of Famer who has played with the best in the league and still no ring without Lebron. Love wasn't even making the playoffs and now he's a bench dude.

3ba11

04-24-2025, 07:04 PM

You keep acting like Lebrons teammates were world beaters. Wade won a title with a top ten all-time PG and C and then did nothing else until Lebron. Bosh was a 1 and done guy, AD is a 1 and done guy, Kyrie is a Hall of Famer who has played with the best in the league and still no ring without Lebron. Love wasn't even making the playoffs and now he's a bench dude.

If Jordan averaged 26 on 35% to lose a 7 game series (with 5 TO's), it would be considered a historic choke, yet that's what Lebron did in 2008 Playoffs, and also 2006... Then he lost as historic favorite in 2009 and 2010, while getting 22 on 35% in 2007 (6 TO's).. So Lebron was horrific until he joined Wade, while Wade was already FMVP and taught Lebron how to win...

You say that Wade wasn't good, but he was 1st option over Lebron in the 2011 Playoffs, which included leading the Heat when Lebron finally beat his bully (the Celtics) in those playoffs, and then leading the Finals vs Dirk (who he already beat in 06' - only Lebron prevented victory in 11')... That's like Bird coming along and carrying Jordan when the bulls finally beat the Pistons in 91'.

So you're comprehensively wrong.

SouBeachTalents

04-24-2025, 07:05 PM

But those numbers would equal 16/3 in prior eras

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?521342-Does-Cade-Cunningham-have-the-potential-to-be-a-top-10-point-guard-of-all-time&p=14994993&viewfull=1#post14994993
This.

3ba11

04-24-2025, 07:15 PM

This.

Kyrie dominated "young MJ" in the 2024 WCF to make the Finals without Lebron:

27.0 on 49%... goat clutch (made Finals without Lebron)

Pippen never dominated or made the Finals without Jordan...

Wade also made the Finals without lebron (by dominating)

3ba11

04-24-2025, 07:17 PM

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Thread Cliffs

thread titlie

RRR3

04-24-2025, 07:24 PM

Kyrie dominated "young MJ" in the 2024 WCF to make the Finals without Lebron:

27.0 on 49%... goat clutch (made Finals without Lebron)

Pippen never dominated or made the Finals without Jordan...

Wade also made the Finals without lebron (by dominating)
But that's only like 16 PPG in the 90s.

3ba11

04-24-2025, 07:34 PM

But that's only like 16 PPG in the 90s.

we're talking non-system points, while Pippen wasn't even a 15 ppg scorer outside the system that he grew up in and learned to get 15-20 flow points or transition... Pippen's halfcourt scoring ability outside the triangle was below Draymond (who can space the floor) or maybe about like Jared Vanderbilt (just a dunker)

ShawkFactory

04-24-2025, 07:37 PM

But that's only like 16 PPG in the 90s.

Obviously we’d have to figure out a way for Pippen to be exempt from the conversion math here :lol

RRR3

04-24-2025, 07:45 PM

we're talking non-system points, while Pippen wasn't even a 15 ppg scorer outside the system that he grew up in and learned to get 15-20 flow points or transition... Pippen's halfcourt scoring ability outside the triangle was below Draymond (who can space the floor) or maybe about like Jared Vanderbilt (just a dunker)
So MJ only won rings in one system? System player. Not top 300 imo. I'd take Jordan Poole over MJ

3ba11

04-24-2025, 07:46 PM

Obviously we’d have to figure out a way for Pippen to be exempt from the conversion math here :lol

And obviously, 27 ppg of clutch domination over "young MJ" is simply much better than Pippen ever played, which is why Kyrie made the Finals without Lebron, while Pippen had a goat choke to trick off a 17 point lead in the 4th... It's night and day.. you fell for a fraud.

3ba11

04-24-2025, 07:48 PM

So MJ only won rings in one system? System player. Not top 300 imo. I'd take Jordan Poole over MJ

Since Lebron perennially loses with every cast and can't produce a dynasty, 3-peat or 70 wins regardless of who we put around him, he's objectively inferior to MJ (vastly)... #fakedebate... #shannongoesdown... #bronsupportersareliars

RRR3

04-24-2025, 07:52 PM

sob sob sob sob WAHHHHHHHHHHH baby want bottle
:biggums:

ShawkFactory

04-24-2025, 07:53 PM

And obviously, 27 ppg of clutch domination over "young MJ" is simply much better than Pippen ever played, which is why Kyrie made the Finals without Lebron, while Pippen had a goat choke to trick off a 17 point lead in the 4th... It's night and day.. you fell for a fraud.

I fell for Pippen?

3ba11

04-24-2025, 08:11 PM

I fell for Pippen?

Pippen is part of the Lebron Fraud.

30 years after the fact, new fans use his ceremonial All-NBA awards that no one knew about or paid any attention to back then, to say that he's a great player... However, these same 30 years have shown that secondary producers and winning sidekicks like Pippen, Dumars, Klay, Parker, Pau, Ginobili and even Worthy get inflated by the winning spotlight, so they don't get All-NBA until they win titles first.. This is a common trend... Nonetheless, history shows that Pippen never played about a prime Larry Nance or Iguodala level, and the unprecedented winning spotlight simply inflated him... Otherwise he would be Harvey Grant.. He couldn't even average 15 ppg outside the system - Houston was literally appalled at how bad he was and how disappointed they were with him... so after signing him to a historic contract, they gave him away for a box of crackers.. He was just a dunker.

SouBeachTalents

04-24-2025, 08:22 PM

RRR3

04-24-2025, 08:23 PM

It's been firmly established that you need to knock like 8 points off of todays number based off OP's own formula, so 27 ppg is like 19 points tops, less than what Pippen was averaging for several title runs.
This. Kyrie would be Dana Barros at best in the 90s based on what OP tells me.

3ba11

04-24-2025, 08:25 PM

It's been firmly established that you need to knock like 8 points off of todays number based off OP's own formula, so 27 ppg is like 19 points tops, less than what Pippen was averaging for several title runs.

Nothing has been established.. your comment on the era difference was referring to Kyrie's 22 ppg playoff average, and you were STUNNED when i pointed out Kyrie's dominant WCF over "young MJ".

RRR3

04-24-2025, 08:25 PM

Nothing has been established.. you were originally referring to Kyrie's 22 ppg playoff average and were STUNNED when i pointed out Kyrie's dominnat WCF over "young MJ".
14 PPG in 90s NBA. Dana Barros.

SouBeachTalents

04-24-2025, 08:27 PM

Nothing has been established.. your comment on the era difference was referring to Kyrie's 22 ppg playoff average, and you were STUNNED when i pointed out Kyrie's dominant WCF over "young MJ".
It certainly has been

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?521342-Does-Cade-Cunningham-have-the-potential-to-be-a-top-10-point-guard-of-all-time&p=14994993&viewfull=1#post14994993

3ba11

04-24-2025, 08:34 PM

It certainly has been

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?521342-Does-Cade-Cunningham-have-the-potential-to-be-a-top-10-point-guard-of-all-time&p=14994993&viewfull=1#post14994993

Regular season.. that's different obviously... The playoffs are a lot closer - MJ won't average 50 in the playoffs.

And the issue is domination - Kyrie could dominate at the top level that we like to see from perimeter stars, while Pippen was mostly a dunker, hustler/defender type... This forced MJ to carry the load and no one ever won a bunch of chips with this type of sidekick (non-scorer).. They only did it in one-offs like Dirk in 2011 or Giannis in 2021, or Kawhi in 2019... no one ever win SIX that way, or even 3... Anyone that won 3 Finals needed a teammate to get 25 ppg or FMVP for at least 1 of the Finals, but Pippen peaked at 21 ppg and is 0/6 in FMVP (or matching Horry's gamescore from 95' Finals).