How can fouls ever be fairly called? Consequently, can flopping ever be "solved"?

[Wardell Curry]

Let's start with an example. For most players, if they run into a guy the size of Jokic, Jokic is not going to move if he's playing honest. If they run into Spud Webb with the same amount of force that they ran into Jokic, Spudd might go flying. It's literally just a force / mass / strength equation in some cases. Again, provided the players are playing honestly.

So what is a foul? Jokic didn't get fouled but Webb did? Does that even make sense? Webb is exponentially more likely to get the call with the same amount of force applied to him.

Nobody in the world is truly capable of accurately assessing the amount of force any particular player is absorbing all of the time without some notable physical manifestation of said force. That's where the flopping comes in and why players do it. They're more likely to get the call because the refs (no refs are) capable of knowing for sure.

And let's just say that the refs were robots capable of determining the precise amount of force absorbed, what is the "correct" amount of force to determine a foul? How is that even knowable? I contend that it is not knowable.

LeBron James and Shaquille O'Neal went through insane segments of their career getting absolutely hammered on a nightly basis with no calls because of their size relative to their primary defender and not reacting to it. Yes they both have flopped and so has Jokic but that's not the point. Look at Jokic's arms in any given game. He is getting beat the hell up and you can see the scratches on him on a nightly basis and this is never getting called because of his size and the fact that he rarely reacts.

The point is these guys take more physical punishment than you would truly have an appreciation for because of their size and strength making it not noticeable and the fact that they are usually not reacting most of the time.



At what point does contact cease to be "incidental"? Some players are physically capable of absorbing more punishment than others. How is it fair to them that they can just get raked and hit and no call? It's as if they are being punished for their physical gifts by the refs inability to accurately know. That's stupid.

Flopping is gay but so is the idea that it's fair for bigger guys to get hit more. Enter flopping.

[Baller234]

It always struck me odd that pickup games are less regulated than basketball at the highest professional level.

In pickup games you don't usually call a foul unless you were really hammered and it's undeniable. Mostly everything else is tolerated. You know you that if you drive to the rim you risk running into a wall and there's no referee to bail you out.

I didn't play organized ball until I was 12. One time I got an offensive rebound under the hoop but I was swarmed by defenders and couldn't get a clean layup off. So there I was struggling and trying to protect the ball, desperately looking for some type of way to make a pass... and my coach is screaming "GO UP!"

Obviously he was telling me to force my way into an impossible shot so I could initiate contact and go to the line, but that never even crossed my mind because I didn't know better and that wasn't basketball to me. That was when I learned the difference between organized ball and pickup ball. Honestly it doesn't align with the spirit of the game if you ask me. You shouldn't be rewarded just because you initiated contact.

Basketball is a contact sport, you should expect contact.

[Wardell Curry]

I agree with 100% of what you just said.

[FKAri]

Baseball's soon to get RoboUmps. I'm sure we'll have cameras and sensors everywhere in the future that can pick up travels, carry's, contact, holding, etc. Until then the refs are human and their limitations along with the gamesmanship it encourages is part of the game.


It always struck me odd that pickup games are less regulated than basketball at the highest professional level.

In pickup games you don't usually call a foul unless you were really hammered and it's undeniable. Mostly everything else is tolerated. You know you that if you drive to the rim you risk running into a wall and there's no referee to bail you out.

I didn't play organized ball until I was 12. One time I got an offensive rebound under the hoop but I was swarmed by defenders and couldn't get a clean layup off. So there I was struggling and trying to protect the ball, desperately looking for some type of way to make a pass... and my coach is screaming "GO UP!"

Obviously he was telling me to force my way into an impossible shot so I could initiate contact and go to the line, but that never even crossed my mind because I didn't know better and that wasn't basketball to me. That was when I learned the difference between organized ball and pickup ball. Honestly it doesn't align with the spirit of the game if you ask me. You shouldn't be rewarded just because you initiated contact.

Basketball is a contact sport, you should expect contact.

Somewhat agree but I think a distinction should be made between foul baiting(forcing opponent into compromising position) vs aiming to trick the official(flopping at no contact, fouling when the ref isn't looking, etc.)

I'm OK with the former but not the latter. I've heard some be OK with tricking officials too since it's "using all the tools available to you". I guess we all draw the line somewhere.

[04mzwach]

Flopping can be solved imho. Fouls will never be a science, but flopping should be penalized further. We need real time video review happening behind the scenes. Refs are human and they can't catch everything. We just limit what the video reviewers can actually review so the refs still have clear control of the game. Video reviewers would only review for foul related flopping.

[Meticode]

Flopping can be solved imho. Fouls will never be a science, but flopping should be penalized further. We need real time video review happening behind the scenes. Refs are human and they can't catch everything. We just limit what the video reviewers can actually review so the refs still have clear control of the game. Video reviewers would only review for foul related flopping.

What's the punishment?

[04mzwach]

Technical foul, free throw and possession seems fair. That would stop it. Who wants to risk it if the penalty is harsh.

[BarberSchool]

I contend it is knowable, but with current technology, would yield a 1-2min review every 7th play lol

So until advanced diagnostic camera work from all angles, is implemented, and analysis is near instantaneous, without disrupting the entertainment value …

… we just gotta socially shame MF’s super hard, and fine MF’s big numbers, when it’s egregious. As well as ejections, and suspensions without pay (penalty goes to charity of players choice) for what are deemed truly egregious flops.

[BarberSchool]

Technical foul, free throw and possession seems fair. That would stop it. Who wants to risk it if the penalty is harsh.
For a regular flop, this is good. Egregious, like the Embiid flop that tore up Danny Green’s knee, yields all that AND ejection, suspension without pay, and a much stronger social shame / reputation destruction culture… distinguishing ourselves from Fkn soccer.

[ArbitraryWater]

Why did you completely abandon your old account and stop talking about certain topics that would be associated with it/you?

[bdonovan]

We've never seen this volume of blown calls.

It is hilarious how inconsistent the refs have become; the players have no idea what to expect but perhaps are making so much money they don't really care.

The question you pose is a good one; but to me that's the least of our problems- whether there is enough or too much contact. Refs are missing much more than that.

Our problem is more basic- you have one ref calling fingernail fouls for some players and letting others get decked with no call - two refs in the SAME game.

Today's officiating is totally arbitrary. Only on review, do they ever get anything right. Adam Silver has dropped the ball on ref quality.

The first thing they should do is add 2 more refs - for a total of 5. This way, every offensive/defensive pair is being watched. Second, they will actually have the right view on adjudicating a play. With 3, they often can't see past other players to see what's going on.

Second, a second set of refs for reviews. Remote refs watch on video, with birds eye view that we have at home- which is far preferable to the on-the-floor view of refs who can't see past the 6'9" player obstructing what's going in the play they're supposed to judge. Remote refs "can blow the whistle" and stop play if they determine a foul. Remote refs can also instant review a floor refs call and overturn it- allowing more challenges that happen in 30 seconds or less.

Thing is- complaining breeds support; solutioning breeds complaint. People will find-fault and whine "too many refs!" or some simple objection. You wouldn't see the remote refs and they'll just be 2 more refs- but provide a fuller accounting of what's going on.

[bdonovan]

Flopping can be solved imho. Fouls will never be a science, but flopping should be penalized further. We need real time video review happening behind the scenes. Refs are human and they can't catch everything. We just limit what the video reviewers can actually review so the refs still have clear control of the game. Video reviewers would only review for foul related flopping.

I agree with real-time video review. Provides a bird's eye view like we see on TV. That's why we see more fouls than refs who can't see past the players who are blocking their view of the play.

Tech has gotten good enough that this kind of instant review can happen in 30 seconds or less. Even in real-time they can observe fouls the floor refs cant', and overturn bogus calls the floor refs call without seeing properly.