Old/Lakers Lebron has been as good as anyone in the league

[StrongLurk]

Since old Lebron has joined the Lakers, he's made all-nba team EVERY year, and has one championship/finals mvp.

Only Jokic and Giannis have been better than Lebron if we look at 2019-2025.

No one else has more all-nbas/rings/FMVPs than old Lebron since he joined the Lakers in 2019 :lol

[3ba11]

Lebron's stats represent losing basketball and this losing brand requires teammates to dominate, aka Lebron can't carry weak help over top teams - he never beat top 5 SRS team with weak scoring and efficiency from a sidekick.. Otoh, jordan's cast performed badly too, but jordan could carry weak help over top teams, so the cast doesn't get blamed like Lebron's does.

Lebron's bad chemistry and bad brand of ball requires joining 1st options and franchise players from other teams, so he can't win with true 2nd options like Klay, Middleton, or Pippen.

[dankok8]

I made a long data-driven post on RealGM about Lakers Lebron. Basically my stance is that Lebron was never consistently a top 5 player in the league since he joined the Lakers, with the only exception being the 2020 postseason. If you want to say that means he has unfair expectations put on him, that's fine with me. That's why you wouldn't see me making any "Lebron choked" type threads. I just don't think he's that good the last few years to expect him to dominate.

Might as well share the whole thing here:



Ok here is the concrete data. Note that I included many impact metrics that like Lebron so I'm not cherrypicking by any means. If there are any you feel that I missed, please post them.

Raw ON/ON-OFF (BBR)

2019: +2.4/+8.2
2020: +9.0/+9.9
2021: +8.6/+10.6
2022: -2.1/+2.1
2023: +5.1/+8.8
2024: +4.1/+9.9
2025: -0.3/-5.3

Average: +3.6/+6.0

RAPM (The Basketball Database)

2019: 2.64 (19th)
2020: 4.78 (4th)
2021: 3.95 (8th)
2022: 0.39 (201st)
2023: 3.33 (15th)
2024: 0.60 (86th)
2025: N/A

xRAPM (xrapm.com)

2019: 5.3 (10th)
2020: 6.8 (3rd)
2021: 6.6 (1st)
2022: 5.4 (8th)
2023: 4.3 (16th)
2024: 5.1 (8th)
2025: 2.2 (50th)

Luck Adjusted-ON/OFF (The Basketball Database)

2019: 9.3 (94th percentile) ~15th
2020: 8.0 (91st percentile) ~20th
2021: 10.4 (94th percentile) ~15th
2022: 3.3 (74th percentile) ~75th
2023: 10.6 (94th percentile) ~15th
2024: -3.3 (43rd percentile) ~160th

With ~300 players per season, 94th percentile means there is roughly 15 or so players above him.

RAPTOR (NBArapm)

2019: 5.6 (16th)
2020: 7.8 (4th)
2021: 6.5 (9th)
2022: 4.7 (14th)

LEBRON (NBArapm)

2019: 4.9 (9th)
2020: 5.5 (4th)
2021: 5.3 (6th)
2022: 3.4 (14th)
2023: 4.1 (10th)
2024: 3.0 (19th)
2025: 2.3 (25th)

MAMBA (NBArapm)

2019: 6.1 (6th)
2020: 7.7 (3rd)
2021: 7.5 (2nd)
2022: 6.9 (4th)
2023: 5.9 (10th)
2024: 6.5 (5th)
2025: 2.6 (42nd)

DARKO (NBArapm)

2019: 6.0 (4th)
2020: 6.4 (2nd)
2021: 6.4 (2nd)
2022: 5.5 (3rd)
2023: 4.2 (12th)
2024: 4.6 (12th)
2025: 3.7 (12th)

Lebron James ON Court ORtg (rORtg) Regular Season / Playoffs (NBA.com)

2019: 111.6 (+1.2) / -------
2020: 114.6 (+4.0) / 118.1 (+6.7)
2021: 115.0 (+2.7) / 111.4 (+0.1)
2022: 113.2 (+1.2) / -------
2023: 118.5 (+3.7) / 114.4 (+1.1)
2024: 119.7 (+4.4) / 112.4 (-0.6)
2025: 112.7 (-1.0) / 108.7 (-2.1)

The only "top 5 offensive player" type number is the 2020 PS.

Regular Season Accolades

2019: 3rd Team, 11th in MVP
2020: 1st Team, 2nd in MVP
2021: 2nd Team, 13th in MVP
2022: 3rd Team, 10th in MVP
2023: 3rd Team, no MVP votes
2024: 3rd Team, no MVP votes

So yes 2019 is a clear season of decline. Even if we disregard the fact that he missed 27 games which is a third of the season, his average rank in all the impact metrics above is 11th. That is a massive decline from prime Lebron.

2020 is a bounceback season of sorts but it's kind of a weird year where many other stars were injured, namely Steph and Durant. Lebron finished an average of 5th in the above metrics in 2020 so you can pencil him in as top 5 but it's not super clear cut. It's not unreasonable to put five other names over him based on the regular season alone.

2021 is the year he looks pretty good with an average ranking of 6th in above metrics before the Solomon Hill injury but you can't just discount the injury. We are talking about being consistently top 5 and he wasn't top 5 for that entire regular season considering all the missed games and his play post-injury. A healthy Lebron could be top 5 but that's a hypothetical.

2022 is just a horrible down year. Nothing much to add there. Ends up 45th on average.

2023 he ends up 13th on average. Again misses a lot of games like the last few years too.

2024 he ends up 48th on average.

2025 we still don't have all the numbers because all the sites haven't been updated but he's unlikely to finish higher than in 2024.

If we look at the PS, he looks great in 2020 arguably the BITW. But he missed the playoffs completely in 2019 and 2022 and looks mediocre in 2021, 2023, 2024 and 2025. I would argue he isn't top 5 in any postseason as a Laker minus 2020 and the Lakers' offenses in the PS also couldn't even eclipse league average level. Either way, he definitely doesn't meet the criteria for consistently top 5.

[StrongLurk]

I made a long data-driven post on RealGM about Lakers Lebron. Basically my stance is that Lebron was never consistently a top 5 player in the league since he joined the Lakers, with the only exception being the 2020 postseason. If you want to say that means he has unfair expectations put on him, that's fine with me. That's why you wouldn't see me making any "Lebron choked" type threads. I just don't think he's that good the last few years to expect him to dominate.

Might as well share the whole thing here:

No other nba player has more all-nbas/rings/FMVPs than old Lebron since he joined the Lakers in 2019. Lakers Lebron is mostly the OLD/out of prime version, yet only 2 players are demonstrably better over the last 7 years lol.

[dankok8]

No other nba player has more all-nbas/rings/FMVPs than old Lebron since he joined the Lakers in 2019. Lakers Lebron is mostly the OLD/out of prime version, yet only 2 players are demonstrably better over the last 7 years lol.

So just because no team won more than 1 title since 2019, there are only 2 better players? Horrible logic.

[ImKobe]

Since old Lebron has joined the Lakers, he's made all-nba team EVERY year, and has one championship/finals mvp.

Only Jokic and Giannis have been better than Lebron if we look at 2019-2025.

No one else has more all-nbas/rings/FMVPs than old Lebron since he joined the Lakers in 2019 :lol

They gave him All-NBA in seasons where he played like 50 games and missed POs he's a fraud

hasn't been able to close games in the Playoffs 3 straight years his team has always been in it in the 4th

now that he's old on top of his choking he's also not able to stay healthy, gonna be 41 next season with a bad knee

[Full Court]

OP is delusional. He hasn't deserved all NBA. The dude's been a net negative.

[StrongLurk]

So just because no team won more than 1 title since 2019, there are only 2 better players? Horrible logic.

No other nba player has more all-nbas/rings/FMVPs.

Giannis/Jokic have MVPS/DPOY as well so they get the nod over old man James.

[StrongLurk]

They gave him All-NBA in seasons where he played like 50 games and missed POs he's a fraud

hasn't been able to close games in the Playoffs 3 straight years his team has always been in it in the 4th

now that he's old on top of his choking he's also not able to stay healthy, gonna be 41 next season with a bad knee

Lebron deserved all his all-nba nods.

Also you talk about the last 3 playoffs years, but what has Giannis done in the last 3 years? What has KD done? What has Curry done? What has Kawhi done? What has Embiid done? Plenty of other stars haven't done anything noteworthy in the playoffs over the last 3 years.

Regardless, my thread is about the last 7 years.

[dankok8]

No other nba player has more all-nbas/rings/FMVPs.

Giannis/Jokic have MVPS/DPOY as well so they get the nod over old man James.

Dude.. That's technically true because of the 2020 postseason. That's the only time in a Lakers uniform that Lebron was top 5 and actually had a good case for best in the world. But in terms of consistency, your proclamation doesn't jive with reality. Other people have played clearly better than old Lebron apart from Jokic/Giannis. Guys like Embiid, Luka, Steph, Tatum, SGA... They were/are all getting multiple 1st Team selections and then there's a few more guys debatable like Kawhi, Jimmy, KD, Davis etc.

I'd say that Lebron since 2018-19 has a good top 10 argument over that span but that's about it.

[ArbitraryWater]

Dude.. That's technically true because of the 2020 postseason. That's the only time in a Lakers uniform that Lebron was top 5 and actually had a good case for best in the world. But in terms of consistency, your proclamation doesn't jive with reality. Other people have played clearly better than old Lebron apart from Jokic/Giannis. Guys like Embiid, Luka, Steph, Tatum, SGA... They were/are all getting multiple 1st Team selections and then there's a few more guys debatable like Kawhi, Jimmy, KD, Davis etc.

I'd say that Lebron since 2018-19 has a good top 10 argument over that span but that's about it.


Not an actual argument.


And if you think anyone here but luka was better than Bron during this span, we need to revoke your bball license :lol

[tpols]

The Lakers have been getting spanked in the West. Like... what's their playoff record the past 15 games? They're 3-12 or something. Getting rocked.

Lebron has put up stats but if you're losing like that what are they worth? There's been an unprecedented amount of 4Q chokes by him and his teammates.

[StrongLurk]

The Lakers have been getting spanked in the West. Like... what's their playoff record the past 15 games? They're 3-12 or something. Getting rocked.

Lebron has put up stats but if you're losing like that what are they worth? There's been an unprecedented amount of 4Q chokes by him and his teammates.

We are talking 2019-now, not just the last 3 years.

[StrongLurk]

Dude.. That's technically true because of the 2020 postseason. That's the only time in a Lakers uniform that Lebron was top 5 and actually had a good case for best in the world. But in terms of consistency, your proclamation doesn't jive with reality. Other people have played clearly better than old Lebron apart from Jokic/Giannis. Guys like Embiid, Luka, Steph, Tatum, SGA... They were/are all getting multiple 1st Team selections and then there's a few more guys debatable like Kawhi, Jimmy, KD, Davis etc.

I'd say that Lebron since 2018-19 has a good top 10 argument over that span but that's about it.

Have any of the guys you listed ACCOMPLISHED more than Lebron over this time span? I say yes to Jokic/Giannis, but YOU need to actually go into detail about these other players accomplishments. Don't just list names...that doesn't do anything. For those players you named, list their total all-nbas, rings, FMVPs, MVPs, since 2018/2019.

Hell, Lebron at 40 was actually better than Luka/Ant in the Minnesota series. Lebron will also get another all-nba team and he was olympic MVP literally last summer lol.

[tpols]

We are talking 2019-now, not just the last 3 years.

He didn't do anything in 2019, 2021 or 2022 either. That doesn't help your case. :lol

Those years collectively were actually worse than the past few.

[StrongLurk]

He didn't do anything in 2019, 2021 or 2022 either. That doesn't help your case. :lol

Those years collectively were actually worse than the past few.

Making all-nba teams is "doing nothing"? Okay so what is "doing something" in your opinion then?

If you want rings/FMVPS, no one more has then Lebron either in his Lakers tenure.

No one in this thread is actually providing DETAILS of how OTHER players accomplished more than Lebron.

You guys just throw out names or cherry pick certain years against Lebron :lol

[tpols]

Making all-nba teams is "doing nothing"? Okay so what is "doing something" in your opinion then?

If you want rings/FMVPS, no one more has then Lebron either in his Lakers tenure.

Dude making All NBA teams on a 33-49 team doesn't mean shit. Thats worth about as much as the All Defense teams old Kobe used to make. You're just not making a good case here.

2019, 2021, and 2022 were disasters. 2023, 2024, and 2025 all ended in sweeps basically. 2-12. He has produced great and moved extremely well but given the star talent they had I feel like the Lakers should've had way more team success. The bs bubble is the only thing they dominated and that was an extremely compromised situation and environment.

[StrongLurk]

Dude making All NBA teams on a 33-49 team doesn't mean shit. Thats worth about as much as the All Defense teams old Kobe used to make. You're just not making a good case here.

2019, 2021, and 2022 were disasters. 2023, 2024, and 2025 all ended in sweeps basically. 2-12. He has produced great and moved extremely well but given the star talent they had I feel like the Lakers should've had way more team success. The bs bubble is the only thing they dominated and that was an extremely compromised situation and environment.

Bro, LIST the players who have accomplished more than Lebron since 2018/19. You can't just ignore comparing players in this thread lol.

Only Jokic and Giannis have clearly done more in this time period.

How about YOU list other players and provide details about their accomplishments.

[3ba11]

All-NBA guys can still be perennial losers, and that's what Lebron is.

[tpols]

The list since 2019 would probably be Jokic, Giannis, Curry, Butler, AD, Luka, and Lebron. Those are the top playoff performers over the past 5 years. So yea... Lebrons up there with the best because he is one of the best. The criteria you're using is exxagerative though.

[StrongLurk]

The list since 2019 would probably be Jokic, Giannis, Curry, Butler, AD, and Lebron. Those are the top playoff performers over the past 5 years. So yea... Lebrons up there with the best because he is one of the best. The criteria you're using is exxagerative though.

Lebron has 7 all-nbas since 2018/19, plus a ring/FMVP.

Curry has 6 all-nbas since 2018/19, plus a ring/FMVP. So Lebron has a small edge here.

Butler has 3 all-nbas, but no ring/FMVP. 2 finals appearances is solid though, but less than what Lebron has accomplished overall.

AD only has 2 all-nbas, plus AD doesn't have a FMVP. Clearly less accomplished.

SOOO tpols, like I said, only Giannis and Jokic are more accomplished than Lebron. This is why it's ridiculous when people say Lebron's Lakers tenure has been a failure lol. If that is the case, then only 2 players have successful tenures since 2018/19...

[3ba11]

he is one of the best.


not anymore.

luka and a goat lob threat like AD might've won 60-70 games together for example, or anyone that wasn't a massive negative like Lebron... 50 wins is horrible with teammates like luka or AD.

"one of the best" cannot lose in the 1st Round with AD and Luka... So lebron hasn't been one of the best since 2020, otherwise, he's been a massive underachiever by missing the play-in with a stud like Westbrook.

"one of the best" would get the most out of Westbrook, like Jokic - Jokic is one of the best, while Lebron is nowhere near.

[tpols]

It has been a failure team wise. They've been getting smoked every single year except for one.

It was just explained to you awards can be bogus. Citing old Kobes All Defense teams as an analogy. It's just the league repping their stars and money makers.

And Dank0 showed you the RAPM data has Lebron nowhere near this exclamatory pedestal you have him on.

[StrongLurk]

It has been a failure team wise. They've been getting smoked every single year except for one.

It was just explained to you awards can be bogus. Citing old Kobes All Defense teams as an analogy. It's just the league repping their stars and money makers.

And Dank0 showed you the RAPM data has Lebron nowhere near this exclamatory pedestal you have him on.

Dank0's data is Lebron centric, so we don't know which players have consistently been better. We'd need to see that same data for like 10 other players and then aggregate it all.

What I HAVE proved, is Lebron has been incredibly accomplished since he joined the Lakers compared to his peers. Again my main point is that the people claiming Lebron's Lakers tenure has been a failure simply are ignorant haters.

[dankok8]

Have any of the guys you listed ACCOMPLISHED more than Lebron over this time span? I say yes to Jokic/Giannis, but YOU need to actually go into detail about these other players accomplishments. Don't just list names...that doesn't do anything. For those players you named, list their total all-nbas, rings, FMVPs, MVPs, since 2018/2019.

Hell, Lebron at 40 was actually better than Luka/Ant in the Minnesota series. Lebron will also get another all-nba team and he was olympic MVP literally last summer lol.

Luka - 5x All-NBA 1st Team; better player than Lebron since 2021 by a large margin and already a top 5 guy in 2020

Tatum - 3x All-NBA 1st Team; best player on a championship team, best player on another finalist; better player than Lebron since 2021

Embiid - MVP, 1x All-NBA 1st Team, 3x All-NBA 2nd Team; not really a much better player in the playoffs but much better in the regular season since 2021

Steph - 2x All-NBA 1st Team, 2x All-NBA 2nd Team; best player on a championship team, best player on another finalist; better player than Lebron every year except 2020

SGA - MVP, 3x All-NBA 1st Team; if he has considerable playoff success, he easily eclipses Lebron; his current season is way better than anything Lebron did as a Laker; he's also clearly the better player the last three or four years

Lebron has only 1st Team and one 2nd Team. #2 in MVP voting in 2020 but then not even top 9 in any other season. Practically zero team success outside of 2020. Everyone except Embiid has had more consistent team success in the playoffs.

Guys like Kawhi and KD missed too much time with injuries but they peaked in 2019 and 2021 at a similar level to Lakers Lebron in 2020 and then currently are around the same level too. I tend to penalize injuries so push comes to shove, I'd give Lebron the edge for being more durable. Jimmy I'm not sold on because he just doesn't try in the regular season but others may disagree. Playoffs only, one can argue Jimmy is better than Lebron since 2019 for sure.

[dankok8]

Dank0's data is Lebron centric, so we don't know which players have consistently been better. We'd need to see that same data for like 10 other players and then aggregate it all.

What I HAVE proved, is Lebron has been incredibly accomplished since he joined the Lakers compared to his peers. Again my main point is that the people claiming Lebron's Lakers tenure has been a failure simply are ignorant haters.

Everyone except SGA who only peaked recently is consistently better in the above metrics since 2019. So Jokic, Giannis, Luka, Embiid, Tatum and Steph.

[StrongLurk]

Everyone except SGA who only peaked recently is consistently better in the above metrics since 2019. So Jokic, Giannis, Luka, Embiid, Tatum and Steph.

Well Embiid is off this list cause he's an actual playoff choker who hasn't done anything the playoffs. Plus he is always hurt. Like literally he is a joke of a superstar.

Tatum is great, but no one is taking Tatum over Lebron since 2018/19. At least I'm not.

Luka has no ring/FMVP, so he is out.

Again, Steph is great and close to Lebron for sure. With that said, Lebron has one more all-nba since 18/19 than Curry and same around of rings/FMVPs.

The fact that OLD Lebron is this competitive is insane.

[tpols]

Dank0's data is Lebron centric, so we don't know which players have consistently been better. We'd need to see that same data for like 10 other players and then aggregate it all.

What I HAVE proved, is Lebron has been incredibly accomplished since he joined the Lakers compared to his peers. Again my main point is that the people claiming Lebron's Lakers tenure has been a failure simply are ignorant haters.

Yes Lebron is a GOAT level player along with a handful of other guys. Why are you saying this like you're preaching to us some huge revelation. This has vibes of when you were trying to tell how Jokic was great in late 2023 when it was already extreme common knowledge.

You have a "nostradamus complex".

Captain hindsight.

LMAO.

[StrongLurk]

Luka - 5x All-NBA 1st Team; better player than Lebron since 2021 by a large margin and already a top 5 guy in 2020

Tatum - 3x All-NBA 1st Team; best player on a championship team, best player on another finalist; better player than Lebron since 2021

Embiid - MVP, 1x All-NBA 1st Team, 3x All-NBA 2nd Team; not really a much better player in the playoffs but much better in the regular season since 2021

Steph - 2x All-NBA 1st Team, 2x All-NBA 2nd Team; best player on a championship team, best player on another finalist; better player than Lebron every year except 2020

SGA - MVP, 3x All-NBA 1st Team; if he has considerable playoff success, he easily eclipses Lebron; his current season is way better than anything Lebron did as a Laker; he's also clearly the better player the last three or four years

Lebron has only 1st Team and one 2nd Team. #2 in MVP voting in 2020 but then not even top 9 in any other season. Practically zero team success outside of 2020. Everyone except Embiid has had more consistent team success in the playoffs.

Guys like Kawhi and KD missed too much time with injuries but they peaked in 2019 and 2021 at a similar level to Lakers Lebron in 2020 and then currently are around the same level too. I tend to penalize injuries so push comes to shove, I'd give Lebron the edge for being more durable. Jimmy I'm not sold on because he just doesn't try in the regular season but others may disagree. Playoffs only, one can argue Jimmy is better than Lebron since 2019 for sure.

You just listed a bunch of guys with less accomplishments than Lebron since 2018/19. Thanks for proving my point.

[StrongLurk]

Yes Lebron is a GOAT level player along with a handful of other guys. Why are you saying this like you're preaching to us some huge revelation. This has vibes of when you were trying to tell how Jokic was great in late 2023 when it was already extreme common knowledge.

You have a "nostradamus complex".

Captain hindsight.

LMAO.

I'm not preaching directly to you perse. I'm preaching to the large amount of people who claim Lebron's Lakers tenure is a failure, despite ignoring Lebron's old age and ignoring the lack of achievements by his peers.

[StrongLurk]

Lebron vs Steph since the 2018/19 playoffs.

Lebron: 53 games, 25.8 PER, 61.4 TS%, .203 WS/48, 9.4 BPM.

Curry: 63 games, 22.4 PER, 60.8 TS%, .172 WS/48, 6.3 BPM

:lol

Not including Embiid, SGA, Luka, or Tatum since none of them have a Ring AND FMVP since 2018/19.

[dankok8]

Well Embiid is off this list cause he's an actual playoff choker who hasn't done anything the playoffs. Plus he is always hurt. Like literally he is a joke of a superstar.

Tatum is great, but no one is taking Tatum over Lebron since 2018/19. At least I'm not.

Luka has no ring/FMVP, so he is out.

Again, Steph is great and close to Lebron for sure. With that said, Lebron has one more all-nba since 18/19 than Curry and same around of rings/FMVPs.

The fact that OLD Lebron is this competitive is insane.

Embiid has averaged 25.5/10.6/3.1 on 58.9 %TS in the playoffs since 2019 while being an elite rim protector. He took a step back from his regular seasons but that isn't saying much because he has had some historic regular seasons. In the 7-year span, the man has put up 29.2/11.3/3.9 on 62.1 %TS with elite rim protection. No way has Lakers Lebron been consistently better than Embiid. That's a crazy take.

I don't want to repeat what I said blow for blow for the other players. Go look at those websites I linked and check the metrics. All those guys scored consistently better than Lakers Lebron. All of them... The only exception is SGA who entered his prime a couple of seasons ago but his peak this year is pretty otherworldly so it's almost a foregone conclusion he eclipses Lakers Lebron after this season.

[StrongLurk]

Embiid has averaged 25.5/10.6/3.1 on 58.9 %TS in the playoffs since 2019 while being an elite rim protector. He took a step back from his regular seasons but that isn't saying much because he has had some historic regular seasons. In the 7-year span, the man has put up 29.2/11.3/3.9 on 62.1 %TS with elite rim protection. No way has Lakers Lebron been consistently better than Embiid. That's a crazy take.

I don't want to repeat what I said blow for blow for the other players. Go look at those websites I linked and check the metrics. All those guys scored consistently better than Lakers Lebron. All of them... The only exception is SGA who entered his prime a couple of seasons ago but his peak this year is pretty otherworldly so it's almost a foregone conclusion he eclipses Lakers Lebron after this season.

Bro, stop. Embiid hasn't touched playoff Lakers Lebron. Embiid has the biggest drop-off of all time from regular season to postseason for any MVP winner.

Lebron vs Steph vs Embiid since the 2018/19 playoffs.

Lebron: 53 games, 25.8 PER, 61.4 TS%, .203 WS/48, 9.4 BPM

Curry: 63 games, 22.4 PER, 60.8 TS%, .172 WS/48, 6.3 BPM

Embiid: 51 games, 22.8 PER, 58.9 TS%, .148 WS/48, 4.5 BPM

Seriously why is everyone so ignorant about Lebron's Lakers tenure? When factoring in regular season and playoffs, ONLY Jokic and Giannis have been clearly better. I've proven this over and over again, but I shouldn't have to. It should be clear to people paying attention.

[ArbitraryWater]

The Lakers have been getting spanked in the West. Like... what's their playoff record the past 15 games? They're 3-12 or something. Getting rocked.

Lebron has put up stats but if you're losing like that what are they worth? There's been an unprecedented amount of 4Q chokes by him and his teammates.

Really? Cause all I remember:

2019: 4th seed at time of injury with shit roster, crushed b2b champs GSW in GS
2020: Champs
2021: on pace for Championship before injury, led the Suns(eventual Finalists)
2022: injury depleted season
2023: WCF baby, 0-4 and were up in all 4 4th quarters, terribly scheduled series with games every other day throughout on an older ish team that just came off 2 6-game series.
2024: R1 draw vs. def Champs, lost in 5 on 2 miracle losses, unlucky draw.
2025: R1 loss indeed, reason was the incomplete/short roster, again 1 miracle loss (game 4)

[ImKobe]

Lebron deserved all his all-nba nods.

Also you talk about the last 3 playoffs years, but what has Giannis done in the last 3 years? What has KD done? What has Curry done? What has Kawhi done? What has Embiid done? Plenty of other stars haven't done anything noteworthy in the playoffs over the last 3 years.

Regardless, my thread is about the last 7 years.

He's been 3rd team All-NBA his last 3 seasons lol and only had one 1st and 2nd team in this whole stretch. The Bran slurping needs to stop. He's so good at padding his numbers but the actual impact just hasn't been there since 2020. He's been washed since he got injured in that 2021 season.

[dankok8]

Bro, stop. Embiid hasn't touched playoff Lakers Lebron. Embiid has the biggest drop-off of all time from regular season to postseason for any MVP winner.

Lebron vs Steph vs Embiid since the 2018/19 playoffs.

Lebron: 53 games, 25.8 PER, 61.4 TS%, .203 WS/48, 9.4 BPM

Curry: 63 games, 22.4 PER, 60.8 TS%, .172 WS/48, 6.3 BPM

Embiid: 51 games, 22.8 PER, 58.9 TS%, .148 WS/48, 4.5 BPM

Seriously why is everyone so ignorant about Lebron's Lakers tenure? When factoring in regular season and playoffs, ONLY Jokic and Giannis have been clearly better. I've proven this over and over again, but I shouldn't have to. It should be clear to people paying attention.

I gave you a comprehensive post with so many metrics and context and you are responding with PER, BPM and WS/48.

This isn't worth my time.

[ArbitraryWater]

He's been 3rd team All-NBA his last 3 seasons lol and only had one 1st and 2nd team in this whole stretch. The Bran slurping needs to stop. He's so good at padding his numbers but the actual impact just hasn't been there since 2020. He's been washed since he got injured in that 2021 season.


Son, stop trolling. If this was Kobe, youd be singing a much different tune.


Bron just bested prime Doncic and Edwards in a playoff series.




https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oX_kES6PWlk



Man at 40 almost dropped a 30 point triple double while playing elite Defense and without any breaks 46 minutes man he's a different animal ...


No impact my ass. If the lakers had a bench, he would have completed a road comeback right here.

[ImKobe]

Son, stop trolling. If this was Kobe, youd be singing a much different tune.


Bron just bested prime Doncic and Edwards in a playoff series.




https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oX_kES6PWlk





No impact my ass. If the lakers had a bench, he would have completed a road comeback right here.

"elite defense" LOL you must not be watching the same game, or you only pay attention to the highlights

"if the lakers had a bench", brother they were better with him on the bench all season, including Playoffs

[ArbitraryWater]

"elite defense" LOL you must not be watching the same game, or you only pay attention to the highlights

"if the lakers had a bench", brother they were better with him on the bench all season, including Playoffs

Thats not even my comment, thats the top comment from the video.

Everyone must be imagining things. Brons defense nearly won them the game at the end. Outstanding stops, steals and one "blocked by James!" moment.


Why do you think he had to play 46 minutes? Or he didnt have to and the lakers would have thrived otherwise? What is Redick not getting?

Try to be a little rational.

[Wardell Curry]

Thats worth about as much as the All Defense teams old Kobe used to make.

And young Kobe to be fair.

Kobe had a few years of his career where he was an extremely good defender, mostly in the first three peat, but as his offensive responsibility grew his defense fell off a cliff. It wasn't that he wasn't capable of being that defender anymore. Of course he was. It's that virtually nobody in league history can carry the offense of a team and maintain being a deserving recipient of 1st team All-NBA Defense. And he was no exception.

But what Kobe did do, specifically, was typically play stellar defense in matchups that he considered to be a threat to him and also typically in nationally televised games where everyone was watching.

He was not out there playing a season's worth of games of good defense to the point that it would warrant 9 seasons of 1st team All Defense. It didn't happen. He got the overwhelming majority of those nods from reputation and choosing key moments to play defense.

Certainly by the 2004 season he was no longer 1st team worthy and if my memory serves me correctly he wasn't in 2003 either. I remember watching a specific game in 2003 where Orlando was in Los Angeles and Kobe did a whole lot of nothing in the first three quarters on either side of the ball. Then in the 4th quarter he started going on an offensive burst while also playing extremely tough defense on McGrady and the broadcasters ranted on and on about how great he was defensively and clearly the best player in the league. But it's like we'd been watching an entirely different game for the first three quarters because he straight up coasted until it mattered. He had that luxury because of his team.

He got 6 1st Defense nods after Shaq. Are we really going to act like Kobe put his best defensive years post Shaq? Give me a break. lol.

The media members that vote do not watch the entirety of the league for a season.

[Wardell Curry]

Coaches don't watch the entire league for a season either. How could they?

Nobody does.

Probably only the top 1% of NBA fans are educated enough to make statements about who should be winning All-Defense teams. I'm not talking about coaches or media members. Literally fans. And that means nobody on InsideHoops since most of us are just on here talking shit.

Maybe that Orlando game was 2004, I don't remember.

Edit: Yeah I looked it up, it was definitely 2004. Mother****er didn't guard McGrady and had 1 point and 2 assists in the entire first half of the game.

[ImKobe]

Why do you think he had to play 46 minutes? Or he didnt have to and the lakers would have thrived otherwise? What is Redick not getting?

Try to be a little rational.


In none of these games did the Lakers do worse in the non-Lebron minutes. How am I being irrational here?

You had plenty of evidence going into Game 4 that Lebron would run out of gas in the 4th in previous games where JJ decided him to play that entire quarter. This happened in Game 2 and Game 3. They had a 10-point lead going into the 4th and you can't give Lebron any rest? They rested him for almost 2 minutes in the 1st Q and did just fine with Vanderbilt subbing in for him. Why couldn't they have done the same to open up the 4th?

[StrongLurk]

I gave you a comprehensive post with so many metrics and context and you are responding with PER, BPM and WS/48.

This isn't worth my time.

Keep crying buddy, your metrics/contexts showed those players achieved less than Lebron has. Also you need to include playoff metrics as well.

Literally only Giannis and Jokic have clearly been better than Lakers Lebron.

You can try to lump in Tatum, Luka, Curry if you want. Lebron has still done more/been better than them but I think those three players have been great themselves obviously. Don't even bother throwing in SGA or Embiid though...just stop.

Again, the main point is that old Lebron has been high competitive/successful during his Lakers tenure compared to his peers. There is no denying this. Bron, as the oldest player in the league for a 3rd year in a row, will at least get ANOTHER all-nba team award this year. And Lebron has a serious argument for being the most impactful player in the Lakers/Wolves series despite the Lakers losing.

[dankok8]

Keep crying buddy, your metrics/contexts showed those players achieved less than Lebron has. Also you need to include playoff metrics as well.

Literally only Giannis and Jokic have clearly been better than Lakers Lebron.

You can try to lump in Tatum, Luka, Curry if you want. Lebron has still done more/been better than them but I think those three players have been great themselves obviously. Don't even bother throwing in SGA or Embiid though...just stop.

Again, the main point is that old Lebron has been high competitive/successful during his Lakers tenure compared to his peers. There is no denying this. Bron, as the oldest player in the league for a 3rd year in a row, will at least get ANOTHER all-nba team award this year. And Lebron has a serious argument for being the most impactful player in the Lakers/Wolves series despite the Lakers losing.

All those players I listed got more 1st Team selections and finished higher in MVP voting. They all scored consistently higher in those impact metrics.

[FKAri]

Literally only Giannis and Jokic have clearly been better than Lakers Lebron.

lol. This year I'll easily take Tatum and SGA. Bron has been incredible for a 40 year old. No need to exaggerate.

[StrongLurk]

lol. This year I'll easily take Tatum and SGA. Bron has been incredible for a 40 year old. No need to exaggerate.

This thread is specifically measuring Lebron's entire Lakers tenure starting with the 18/19 season. Lebron has more all-nbas than Tatum and a FMVP over him, plus Lebron has been measurably better as a playoff performer than Tatum over the last 7 years.

[StrongLurk]

All those players I listed got more 1st Team selections and finished higher in MVP voting. They all scored consistently higher in those impact metrics.

Except they all have less all-nba awards overall, and some of them don't have a ring or FMVP, which is huge.

The biggest thing is Lebron has been a better playoff performer, and FINALS performer (for those who even made it). Some of these players may have higher, but shorter, peaks than Lebron in recent years for sure, but they aren't better over the last 7 years factoring in playoffs which is incredibly important.

Even if you disagree for some reason, you literally still have to place old/out of prime Lebron as a top 8 player overall during his Lakers tenure, which is insane given his age/mileage.

[dankok8]

Except they all have less all-nba awards overall, and some of them don't have a ring or FMVP, which is huge.

The biggest thing is Lebron has been a better playoff performer, and FINALS performer (for those who even made it). Some of these players may have higher, but shorter, peaks than Lebron in recent years for sure, but they aren't better over the last 7 years factoring in playoffs which is incredibly important.

Even if you disagree for some reason, you literally still have to place old/out of prime Lebron as a top 8 player overall during his Lakers tenure, which is insane given his age/mileage.

Top 8 is reasonable and you wouldn't see much pushback from me. And yes it is impressive.

Top 3 as you're seemingly arguing is not reasonable though.

[StrongLurk]

Top 8 is reasonable and you wouldn't see much pushback from me. And yes it is impressive.

Top 3 as you're seemingly arguing is not reasonable though.

My stance is Lebron CAN be argued as 3rd best, or at least, 3rd most "accomplished". It's not hyperbole, it's factual. I think we agree Jokic and Giannis are easily top 2 over everyone, but 3-8 has a lot more wiggle room.

Obviously Lebron's impact over time is lessening as he ages and another year of Lebron probably makes my arguments tougher. But we will see.

I just watched him be an elite two way superstar vs the Wolves defense. Sure they lost, but Lebron was still elite. Giannis also lost his series, but he was an absolute monster. Too many dumb people are simply basing EVERYTHING on who won or lost with no context at all lol.

[dankok8]

My stance is Lebron CAN be argued as 3rd best, or at least, 3rd most "accomplished". It's not hyperbole, it's factual. I think we agree Jokic and Giannis are easily top 2 over everyone, but 3-8 has a lot more wiggle room.

Obviously Lebron's impact over time is lessening as he ages and another year of Lebron probably makes my arguments tougher. But we will see.

I just watched him be an elite two way superstar vs the Wolves defense. Sure they lost, but Lebron was still elite. Giannis also lost his series, but he was an absolute monster. Too many dumb people are simply basing EVERYTHING on who won or lost with no context at all lol.

No he can't be argued as 3rd best. Other guys have way more high end accolades and simply played at a higher level.

You're moving goalposts. Here you say people only care about who won and who lost but then someone like Luka isn't better than Lebron despite getting 5x 1st Team selections, finishing way higher in MVP voting and beating him in impact metrics because he didn't win a ring. Very inconsistent.

Also, pump the brakes. Lebron had ONE elite game against Minnesota in Game 3.

[StrongLurk]

No he can't be argued as 3rd best. Other guys have way more high end accolades and simply played at a higher level.

You're moving goalposts. Here you say people only care about who won and who lost but then someone like Luka isn't better than Lebron despite getting 5x 1st Team selections, finishing way higher in MVP voting and beating him in impact metrics because he didn't win a ring. Very inconsistent.

Also, pump the brakes. Lebron had ONE elite game against Minnesota in Game 3.

Other guys do not have way more high end accolades. Lebron literally snagged a FMVP for crying out loud. Luka has been great but he has not been demonstrably better than Lebron in the playoffs over the last 7 years. Shit Lebron was literally JUST BETTER than Luka in the Wolves series lol. Only Jokic, Giannis, and Tatum have been better than Lebron in the 1st round.

Also, Lebron was 100% elite in BOTH game 3 and 4 in Minnesota. In both games combined, Lebron averaged 33/11/6 with 5 stocks on 76.8 TS%. Bro had a 35 game score, 155 ORTG, 16.5 BPM lol. He was literally torching the Wolves on offense and defense.

[dankok8]

Other guys do not have way more high end accolades. Lebron literally snagged a FMVP for crying out loud. Luka has been great but he has not been demonstrably better than Lebron in the playoffs over the last 7 years. Shit Lebron was literally JUST BETTER than Luka in the Wolves series lol. Only Jokic, Giannis, and Tatum have been better than Lebron in the 1st round.

Also, Lebron was 100% elite in BOTH game 3 and 4 in Minnesota. In both games combined, Lebron averaged 33/11/6 with 5 stocks on 76.8 TS%. Bro had a 35 game score, 155 ORTG, 16.5 BPM lol. He was literally torching the Wolves on offense and defense.

Game 4 was a solid performance and that's it. He played 46 minutes and put up just 27 points and couldn't close out the game.

Luka has been demonstrably better in the regular season and playoffs. Significantly better each year since 2021. 1st Team All-NBA, top 6 in MVP voting, putting up >30/8/8 in the playoffs. Stop with this nonsense. Even this year an injured Luka is still the more impactful player. Lakers have sucked with Lebron and without Luka on the floor but flourished with Luka and without Lebron. And that trend continued in the series against Minny.

[dankok8]

Other guys do not have way more high end accolades. Lebron literally snagged a FMVP for crying out loud. Luka has been great but he has not been demonstrably better than Lebron in the playoffs over the last 7 years. Shit Lebron was literally JUST BETTER than Luka in the Wolves series lol. Only Jokic, Giannis, and Tatum have been better than Lebron in the 1st round.

Also, Lebron was 100% elite in BOTH game 3 and 4 in Minnesota. In both games combined, Lebron averaged 33/11/6 with 5 stocks on 76.8 TS%. Bro had a 35 game score, 155 ORTG, 16.5 BPM lol. He was literally torching the Wolves on offense and defense.

Game 4 was a solid performance and that's it. He played 46 minutes and put up just 27 points and couldn't close out the game.

Luka has been demonstrably better in the regular season and playoffs. Significantly better each year since 2021. 1st Team All-NBA, top 6 in MVP voting, putting up >30/8/8 in the playoffs. Stop with this nonsense. Even this year an injured Luka is still the more impactful player. Lakers have sucked with Lebron and without Luka on the floor but flourished with Luka and without Lebron. And that trend continued in the series against Minny.

[StrongLurk]

Game 4 was a solid performance and that's it. He played 46 minutes and put up just 27 points and couldn't close out the game.

Luka has been demonstrably better in the regular season and playoffs. Significantly better each year since 2021. 1st Team All-NBA, top 6 in MVP voting, putting up >30/8/8 in the playoffs. Stop with this nonsense. Even this year an injured Luka is still the more impactful player. Lakers have sucked with Lebron and without Luka on the floor but flourished with Luka and without Lebron. And that trend continued in the series against Minny.

Except all impact stats show Lebron was better than Luka in their playoff series.

It's hilarious you trying to downplay game 4. Since when is 27/12/8/3/3 on 79.8 TS%, with a 158 ORTG, 33.2 gamescore and 13.8 BPM not a FANTASTIC ****ing game? It was easily one of the best games out of ALL 1st round playoff series, not just the Lakers/Wolves series. It's Lebron's 32nd highest gamescore of his 292 game playoff career. It was absolutely elite.

Tatum only has SIX career playoff games with a higher playoff gamescore. Only SIX. Luka only has five playoff games with a higher gamescore in his career lol.

You are just factually wrong on all levels by claiming Lebron's game 4 was just "solid".

[dankok8]

Except all impact stats show Lebron was better than Luka in their playoff series.

It's hilarious you trying to downplay game 4. Since when is 27/12/8/3/3 on 79.8 TS%, with a 158 ORTG, 33.2 gamescore and 13.8 BPM not a FANTASTIC ****ing game? It was easily one of the best games out of ALL 1st round playoff series, not just the Lakers/Wolves series. It's Lebron's 32nd highest gamescore of his 292 game playoff career. It was absolutely elite.

Tatum only has SIX career playoff games with a higher playoff gamescore. Only SIX. Luka only has five playoff games with a higher gamescore in his career lol.

You are just factually wrong on all levels by claiming Lebron's game 4 was just "solid".

Which impact stat one has Lebron over Luka? Don't say GameScore or PER cuz those aren't impact stats.

27/12/8 in 46 minutes is not a special game in today's NBA. And again, he couldn't close down the stretch. Had just 5 points in the 3rd Q, 0 points in the 4th.

Solid/good game is an accurate description.

[dankok8]

By the way, are you sure you wanna double down on that metric? This 2025 series is the first time in a Lakers uniform that Lebron has led a series in GameScore. Not even a single time in 2020, 2021, 2023, 2024...

[StrongLurk]

Which impact stat one has Lebron over Luka? Don't say GameScore or PER cuz those aren't impact stats.

27/12/8 in 46 minutes is not a special game in today's NBA. And again, he couldn't close down the stretch. Had just 5 points in the 3rd Q, 0 points in the 4th.

Solid/good game is an accurate description.

You are just being obtuse at this point. You are purposely not including TS% or blocks/steals lol. Enjoy your delusions buddy, I can't help you. If game 4 was just a "solid game", then basically no one in the history of playoff basketball have ever had a "good game".

Imagine thinking Lebron, even at 40 years, did not have a good series vs the Wolves..

Lebron: 25/9/6 with 3.8 stocks, 25.2 PER, 60.1 TS%, .198 WS/48, 9.5 BPM, 23.4 Gamescore, 18.5 Player Impact Estimate

Luka: 30/7/6 with 1.6 stocks, 21.3 PER, 60.8 TS%, .136 WS/48, 5.3 BPM, 21.5 Gamescore, 15.7 Player Impact Estimate

Ant: 27/8/6 with 1.6 stock, 22.6 PER, 53.3 TS%, .213 WS/48, 7.9 BPM, 21.5 Gamescore, 15.9 Player Impact Estimate

[hold this L]

If Leborn had a good series, they don't lose in 5.

[StrongLurk]

If Leborn had a good series, they don't lose in 5.

That's not how basketball works, which I know that you know.

[dankok8]

OP keeps using Game Score as his go to stat when Lebron only led one series in Game Score as a Laker and that's the 2025 1st Round.

I've posted comprehensive statistics, accolades etc. and Lebron looks fringe top 5 during the 2020 RS and arguably best in the world in the 2020 PS but in 2019, 2021, 2022, 2023, 2024, 2025 he definitively doesn't look like a top 5 player. Thus putting him 3rd over a 7-year span is lunacy.

[tpols]

By the way, are you sure you wanna double down on that metric? This 2025 series is the first time in a Lakers uniform that Lebron has led a series in GameScore. Not even a single time in 2020, 2021, 2023, 2024...

Who was leading all those series in gamescore then?

[StrongLurk]

OP keeps using Game Score as his go to stat when Lebron only led one series in Game Score as a Laker and that's the 2025 1st Round.

I've posted comprehensive statistics, accolades etc. and Lebron looks fringe top 5 during the 2020 RS and arguably best in the world in the 2020 PS but in 2019, 2021, 2022, 2023, 2024, 2025 he definitively doesn't look like a top 5 player. Thus putting him 3rd over a 7-year span is lunacy.

I've used far more than just game score dummy, also used ACCOMPLISHMENTS too. Lebron has been all-nba every year on the Lakers plus won a ring/FMVP. Most players can't say that, plus Lebron has plenty of advanced stats that paint him as a top 5-8 player over his Lakers tenure.

Seriously, no one has a CONCLUSIVE argument over old Lakers Lebron besides Giannis/Jokic. Those other players you mention have "some" argument, but nothing definitive at all. Worst case scenario, you'd throw in Luka, Curry, and Tatum with Lebron as a "carousel" of players who can be ranked 3-6 behind Giannis/Jokic.

Shai is too recent with limited playoff success so far, Embiid is a playoff disaster. Anthony Davis has also been great but frankly injuries have kept him slightly lower than Lebron. KD has been great too, but not quite at Lebron's level. Kawhi had WAY too many injuries.

[dankok8]

Who was leading all those series in gamescore then?

2020 POR: Davis
2020 HOU: Harden
2020 DEN: Davis
2020 MIA: Butler
2021 PHO: Booker
2023 MEM: Davis
2023 GSW: Davis
2023 DEN: Jokic (Lebron at #3 behind Murray as well)
2024 DEN: Jokic (Lebron at #3 behind Davis as well)

[dankok8]

I've used far more than just game score dummy, also used ACCOMPLISHMENTS too. Lebron has been all-nba every year on the Lakers plus won a ring/FMVP. Most players can't say that, plus Lebron has plenty of advanced stats that paint him as a top 5-8 player over his Lakers tenure.

Seriously, no one has a CONCLUSIVE argument over old Lakers Lebron besides Giannis/Jokic. Those other players you mention have "some" argument, but nothing definitive at all. Worst case scenario, you'd throw in Luka, Curry, and Tatum with Lebron as a "carousel" of players who can be ranked 3-6 behind Giannis/Jokic.

Shai is too recent with limited playoff success so far, Embiid is a playoff disaster. Anthony Davis has also been great but frankly injuries have kept him slightly lower than Lebron. KD has been great too, but not quite at Lebron's level. Kawhi had WAY too many injuries.

Lebron has 1st Team once in 2020. All others are 2nd (once) or 3rd Team (four times). When apart from 2020 was Lebron top 5? Which year?

[StrongLurk]

Lebron has 1st Team once in 2020. All others are 2nd (once) or 3rd Team (four times). When apart from 2020 was Lebron top 5? Which year?

Dude, I've responded with many different posts and you keep looking for more cherry picked data. You need to put all these players in the scope of the last 7 years in their entirety. I just explained that the only other true competitors are Luka, Curry, and Tatum. Luka doesn't have the ring/FMVP OR an MVP, while Curry has similar accolades but not as good production, same with Tatum. 2020 Lebron shits on every version of Tatum that has ever existed.

At WORST, old Lakers Lebron has been the 6th best/most accomplished player in the league since 2018/19.

We will just have to disagree here a bit, but obviously we agree old Lebron's Lakers tenure has been "successful" relative to his peers.

[3ba11]

Dude, I've responded with many different posts and you keep looking for more cherry picked data. You need to put all these players in the scope of the last 7 years in their entirety. I just explained that the only other true competitors are Luka, Curry, and Tatum. Luka doesn't have the ring/FMVP OR an MVP, while Curry has similar accolades but not as good production, same with Tatum. 2020 Lebron shits on every version of Tatum that has ever existed.

At WORST, old Lakers Lebron has been the 6th best/most accomplished player in the league since 2018/19.

We will just have to disagree here a bit, but obviously we agree old Lebron's Lakers tenure has been "successful" relative to his peers.


He's a stat-padder that plays losing basketball.. It's like if the Mavs let Klay Thompson shoot every time - his numbers would be passable (24/7/5 or something) but they would lose most games.. This is analogous to what is happening with Lebron since 2022.. He hasn't been a serious player that is serious about winning since then (since he lost a 2-1 lead to Booker).. The playoffs reveal this every year with catastrophic loss and goat choking in the 4th against Denver and now the T'Wolves.

[tpols]

2020 POR: Davis
2020 HOU: Harden
2020 DEN: Davis
2020 MIA: Butler
2021 PHO: Booker
2023 MEM: Davis
2023 GSW: Davis
2023 DEN: Jokic (Lebron at #3 behind Murray as well)
2024 DEN: Jokic (Lebron at #3 behind Davis as well)

Wow.

Stronglurk do you have a response for this?

This incorporates every playoff series Lebron played as a Laker.

[hold this L]

Wow.

Stronglurk do you have a response for this?

This incorporates every playoff series Lebron played as a Laker.

It's interesting that Lebron out East went to 8 finals in a row and then went o the west and has been able to make the final 1 out of 7 years :applause:

[hold this L]

That's not how basketball works, which I know that you know.
The Lakers were positive with Lebron off the court and a big negative with him on the court. Anybody who thinks he was great is either e LeStan or clinically blind. He wasn't bad, but he didn't have a great series.

[tpols]

It's interesting that Lebron out East went to 8 finals in a row and then went o the west and has been able to make the final 1 out of 7 years :applause:

It is amazing that the data overwhelmingly shows AD and Jokic >>> Lakers Lebron given the media sentiment, but I didn't expect to see Booker, Butler, and Harden of all people out producing him too. Murray as well.

This is an indictment I was unaware of. If I had to guess he would've split with AD at least.

[StrongLurk]

He's a stat-padder that plays losing basketball.. It's like if the Mavs let Klay Thompson shoot every time - his numbers would be passable (24/7/5 or something) but they would lose most games.. This is analogous to what is happening with Lebron since 2022.. He hasn't been a serious player that is serious about winning since then (since he lost a 2-1 lead to Booker).. The playoffs reveal this every year with catastrophic loss and goat choking in the 4th against Denver and now the T'Wolves.

No one has won more rings/FMVPs than Lebron James since he joined the Lakers. So based on your post, everyone in the league plays "losing basketball".

You are so easy to beat down I feel bad sometimes.

[StrongLurk]

The Lakers were positive with Lebron off the court and a big negative with him on the court. Anybody who thinks he was great is either e LeStan or clinically blind. He wasn't bad, but he didn't have a great series.

You should know "plus/minus" is just noise on a small sample size like a single playoff series.

Lebron actually has the highest "plus/minus" of all time in playoff history, so you don't want to go down that road.

[hold this L]

You should know "plus/minus" is just noise on a small sample size like a single playoff series.

Lebron actually has the highest "plus/minus" of all time in playoff history, so you don't want to go down that road.
Because he played in a garbage conference. How's his +/- in the West during the playoffs? Or record for that matter? Isn't he on a legendary 2-14 run in his last games? :applause:


8 years making NBA finals
24 playoff series
One 1st All NBA opponent

Easy to have the best +/- when your best opponents are Defrozen and the teletubby from Toronto.

[dankok8]

Dude, I've responded with many different posts and you keep looking for more cherry picked data. You need to put all these players in the scope of the last 7 years in their entirety. I just explained that the only other true competitors are Luka, Curry, and Tatum. Luka doesn't have the ring/FMVP OR an MVP, while Curry has similar accolades but not as good production, same with Tatum. 2020 Lebron shits on every version of Tatum that has ever existed.

At WORST, old Lakers Lebron has been the 6th best/most accomplished player in the league since 2018/19.

We will just have to disagree here a bit, but obviously we agree old Lebron's Lakers tenure has been "successful" relative to his peers.

Dude my point with asking that is for any player to be top 5 over a 7-year span, surely they have to be top 5 in more than one season...

Again, which season apart from 2020 was Lakers Lebron top 5?

[Meticode]

The endless paragraphs talking about someone you love to idolize or someone you loathe so much who doesn't even know you exist. All the reading above.

[3ba11]

No one has won more rings/FMVPs than Lebron James since he joined the Lakers. So based on your post, everyone in the league plays "losing basketball".

You are so easy to beat down I feel bad sometimes.


No star has 3 first round exits and 2 lotteries since 2021 - and since Lebron had a top 10 teammate during all of this, it's easily the worst of any star player

[StrongLurk]

Dude my point with asking that is for any player to be top 5 over a 7-year span, surely they have to be top 5 in more than one season...

Again, which season apart from 2020 was Lakers Lebron top 5?

No necessarily. Maybe Lebron was top 10 most of the time but some of those other players weren't even top 20. You are basically arguing for peak while I am arguing for consistency and accomplishments.

[StrongLurk]

No star has 3 first round exits and 2 lotteries since 2021 - and since Lebron had a top 10 teammate during all of this, it's easily the worst of any star player

Another lie by you, what's new?

[StrongLurk]

Because he played in a garbage conference. How's his +/- in the West during the playoffs? Or record for that matter? Isn't he on a legendary 2-14 run in his last games? :applause:


8 years making NBA finals
24 playoff series
One 1st All NBA opponent

Easy to have the best +/- when your best opponents are Defrozen and the teletubby from Toronto.

This is OLD/OUT of prime Lebron we are talking about. And again, you are having to cherry pick from the last 3 years. No one has won more rings/FMVPs or made more all-nba teams than Lebron over the last 7 years. It's ironic that you are trying to shit on OLD Lebron when he's done better than Curry since 2018/2019 lol.

[tpols]

2020 POR: Davis
2020 HOU: Harden
2020 DEN: Davis
2020 MIA: Butler
2021 PHO: Booker
2023 MEM: Davis
2023 GSW: Davis
2023 DEN: Jokic (Lebron at #3 behind Murray as well)
2024 DEN: Jokic (Lebron at #3 behind Davis as well)

Stronglurk you still haven't addressed this.

How could that happen in every single playoff series from a GOAT of the era you're talking about?

[StrongLurk]

Wow.

Stronglurk do you have a response for this?

This incorporates every playoff series Lebron played as a Laker.

Donkok did leave out the Wolves/Lakers series that Lebron lead in, but it's just one advanced metric. I am looking at all advanced metrics and all accomplishments since 2018/19. Besides Jokic and Giannis, you can cherry pick all kinds of data against all nba players. The key is what happened over 7 years at a high level. Literally no one would say Harden, Booker, Butler, Davis, or Murray have been better/accomplished more than Lebron over the last 7 years.

So many people in this thread, except for Dankok sometimes, are just cherry picking random things against Lebron and then not applying any criteria whatsoever to other players in the league.

Last reminder for tpols and everyone. If you think other players have done more than Lebron (except for Jokic/Giannis obviously), since 2018/19, then you need to COME WITH DATA.

You can't just look at Lebron and only nitpick him, you have to review his peers too.

[tpols]

We did come with data and results. You came with media accolades.

[StrongLurk]

We did come with data and results. You came with media accolades.

What data on Lebron's peers have you provided :lol.

All these data points are mostly Lebron centric, but that doesn't tell us about the specifics of other players. These "media accolades" involve other players too. Like how good was Tatum 2018-2021? What about SGA? Why does Embiid suck ass in the playoffs?

So many people are also just looking at the last 3 years...not Lebron's entire Lakers tenure.

I can't think of anybody that is CLEARLY over Lebron besides Jokic/Giannis. Guys like Curry and Luka have some arguments, I guess Tatum too although only recently become a true superstar in my opinion. KD/Kawhi can't compete. Anthony Davis does have a good argument on certain metrics no doubt, but he has been a bit more injury prone than Lebron.

My ultimate point which I've stated is that Lebron's Lakers tenure has clearly been very successful compared to his peers. A lot of the haters can't accept this main point.

[hold this L]

This is OLD/OUT of prime Lebron we are talking about. And again, you are having to cherry pick from the last 3 years. No one has won more rings/FMVPs or made more all-nba teams than Lebron over the last 7 years. It's ironic that you are trying to shit on OLD Lebron when he's done better than Curry since 2018/2019 lol.
You can include the 2020 PS, all of his post season runs with the Lakers in the last 7 years. How's his +/- there? Is it still following the same trend as when he was in the East?

Lebron is at +132 since the 2019 PS, Steph's at +340. As I said, it's easy to look good when your competition is fodder tier. It's also easy when you don't have to play against elite competition to get to NBA finals.

[tpols]

What data on Lebron's peers have you provided? :lol


Literally advanced data from every single playoff series as a Laker.

[StrongLurk]

You can include the 2020 PS, all of his post season runs with the Lakers in the last 7 years. How's his +/- there? Is it still following the same trend as when he was in the East?

Lebron is at +132 since the 2019 PS, Steph's at +340. As I said, it's easy to look good when your competition is fodder tier. It's also easy when you don't have to play against elite competition to get to NBA finals.

Great, I'm sure some role players are above other superstars for this category. Doesn't mean the role players are better. How about you provide the entire list so we can gauge all of Lebron's peers?

[StrongLurk]

Literally advanced data from every single playoff series as a Laker.

You need to aggregate that data from regular season and all of playoffs, and also measure accomplishments.

Honestly I'm getting busy here, will probably look at this tomorrow.

How about you give me a list of players who have for sure been better and accomplished more than Lebron since 2018/19 and some corresponding data. Or not, doesn't matter to me really.

As long as you agree Lebron's Lakers tenure has been successful compared to his peers (most of whom are actually at their peaks/primes).

[3ba11]

You need to aggregate that data from regular season and all of playoffs, and also measure accomplishments.

Honestly I'm getting busy here, will probably look at this tomorrow.

How about you give me a list of players who have for sure been better and accomplished more than Lebron since 2018/19 and some corresponding data. Or not, doesn't matter to me really.

As long as you agree Lebron's Lakers tenure has been successful compared to his peers (most of whom are actually at their peaks/primes).


the Lakers pulled off a historic heist to get AD, so they were the only team that was motivated in the bubble - no one else cared except the team that pulled off the heist.

so the bubble chip was never considered anything special, especially when AD carried the team to the Finals over Jokic, and led the NBA in playoff scoring.

aside from this fake chip that no one respects, Lebron failed more than any of his peers since 2019... Lebron produced a horrific lottery team in 2019 and needed AD to save the franchise - this is the worst among his peers (needing someone to save his lottery team)

[StrongLurk]

the Lakers pulled off a historic heist to get AD, so they were the only team that was motivated in the bubble - no one else cared except the team that pulled off the heist.

so the bubble chip was never considered anything special, especially when AD carried the team to the Finals over Jokic, and led the NBA in playoff scoring.

aside from this fake chip that no one respects, Lebron is a massive failure in LA - more than any of his peers since 2019... Lebron produced a horrific lottery team in 2019 and needed AD to save the franchise - this is the worst among his peers (needing someone to save his lottery team)

Your false reality copy pasta is boring. However, your tears streaming down your face when you typed this post are delicious.

[3ba11]

Your false reality copy pasta is boring. However, your tears streaming down your face when you typed this post are delicious.


You can't respond and resort to junior high nannynannybooboo talk.. So I'll take the win.

[tpols]

You need to aggregate that data from regular season and playoffs.

No we dont. It's already been established that making All NBA on lottery teams twice (2019 and 2022) doesn't count. It's an invalid media accolade that doesn't carry any weight. Nobody cares what guys a mile away from the playoffs produced.

And then as far as playoff aggregate, you were given that. Every single playoff series the Lakers played since 2018 Lebron was secondary to either his own teammate or an opponent in overall production. Except this year. Where he got spanked anyway.

[dankok8]

Here is ON and ON/OFF for some top 10 guys since 2019, first regular season then playoffs.

Regular Season ON/ON-OFF (2019-2025)

Lebron James: +3.6/+6.0
Stephen Curry: +6.6/+7.5
Luka Doncic: +3.4/+3.5
Joel Embiid: +7.8/+9.6
Anthony Davis: +2.7/+3.4
Jayson Tatum: +8.7/+5.6

Postseason ON/ON-OFF (2019-2025)

Lebron James: +3.7/+6.3
Stephen Curry: +5.2/+10.7
Luka Doncic: +1.0/+9.7
Joel Embiid: +6.8/+19.2
Anthony Davis: +6.0/+11.1
Jayson Tatum: +4.8/+4.3

In the regular season, Lebron is only ahead of Luka and Davis. In the postseason, he's only ahead of Tatum. In the playoffs in particular, guys are just beating him badly.

It's also evident that Embiid is a massive impact player including in the postseason.

[StrongLurk]

Here is ON and ON/OFF for some top 10 guys since 2019, first regular season then playoffs.

Regular Season ON/ON-OFF (2019-2025)

Lebron James: +3.6/+6.0
Stephen Curry: +6.6/+7.5
Luka Doncic: +3.4/+3.5
Joel Embiid: +7.8/+9.6
Anthony Davis: +2.7/+3.4
Jayson Tatum: +8.7/+5.6

Postseason ON/ON-OFF (2019-2025)

Lebron James: +3.7/+6.3
Stephen Curry: +5.2/+10.7
Luka Doncic: +1.0/+9.7
Joel Embiid: +6.8/+19.2
Anthony Davis: +6.0/+11.1
Jayson Tatum: +4.8/+4.3

In the regular season, Lebron is only ahead of Luka and Davis. In the postseason, he's only ahead of Tatum. In the playoffs in particular, guys are just beating him badly.

It's also evident that Embiid is a massive impact player including in the postseason.

Take Embiid out buddy, I've watched many of his playoff games and dude is just a massive choker. Seriously, it's a ridiculous take to think Embiid has been better than Bron since 2019.

Looking at this specific data, you are proving my thread. Lakers Lebron is still highly competitive with the best players in the league who have mostly been at their peak/primes. Curry is the only exception as he is getting older too.

Also need to give another shoutout to Dankok. Dude is the ONLY poster coming through with some good counterposts.

[StrongLurk]

No we dont. It's already been established that making All NBA on lottery teams twice (2019 and 2022) doesn't count. It's an invalid media accolade that doesn't carry any weight. Nobody cares what guys a mile away from the playoffs produced.

And then as far as playoff aggregate, you were given that. Every single playoff series the Lakers played since 2018 Lebron was secondary to either his own teammate or an opponent in overall production. Except this year. Where he got spanked anyway.

Many players make all-nbas while being on lottery teams. It's a non-point.

Your second point is only related to gamescore, there are plenty of other factors. Even if Lebron happened to be secondary in gamescore in those series, his own gamescore was still very high and was still outplaying others. Lebron ALSO has series of outplaying AD, Luka, Curry, Ant, Damian Lillard, Ja Morant via gamescore on the Lakers.

See what I mean when I say tpols, that you are ONLY focusing on Lebron, and even cherry picking any perceived "negative". You ignore all the other great players Lebron himself outplayed.

[Indian guy]

God what a dreadful post. I'm the biggest LeBron fan out there and the only season from 2019-2025 that multiple metrics would support as top 5 is 2020. Any truly knowledgeable LeBron fan SHOULD know that his body saw a noticeable decline post-2018 and there's a dramatic decline in his impact stats from 2019 onward. Look it up. And that's ok. He was already 34 when he joined LA and only about 4 players in NBA history managed to be Top 5 till their mid 30's (Kareem, MJ, Malone & LeBron himself). LeBron does have the strongest claim to having the best age 36-40 stretch ever, but he was never top 5 during that span. From 2019-2024 he's more of a Top 10 guy and Top 15 in 2025.

[StrongLurk]

God what a dreadful post. I'm the biggest LeBron fan out there and the only season from 2019-2025 that multiple metrics would support LeBron as a top 5 player is 2020. Any truly knowledgeable LeBron fan SHOULD know that his body saw a noticeable decline post-2018 and there's a dramatic decline in his impact stats from 2019 onward. Look it up. And that's ok. He was already 34 when he joined LA and only about 4 players in NBA history managed to be Top 5 till their mid 30's (Kareem, MJ, Malone & LeBron himself). LeBron does have the strongest claim to having the best age 36-40 stretch ever, but he was never top 5 during that span. From 2019-2024 he's more of a Top 10 guy and Top 15 in 2025.

You are making the same mistake. No one except for Jokic/Giannis have been top 5 the whole time since 2018/19. All these other players have similar "swings" over this time period. Lebron's is downward while some players are upward. They will average out similarly. Get it?

Many players have also had failures. Curry literally missed the playoffs two years in a row. Doncic missed the playoffs one year. Tatum never peaked as high as Lebron since 2018/2019. Embiid is a historic playoff choker. SGA only got good recently and has limited playoff success so far (SGA literally missed the playoffs 3 years in a row). KD has injuries and failed teams, missing the playoffs this year. Kawhi is hurt every year.

Like seriously look at the ENTIRE span of the last 7 years. It's hard to pick 5 guys will clearly better performances and accolades over Lebron.

[3ba11]

Like seriously look at the ENTIRE span of the last 7 years.





Lebron was horrific every year except 2020, so tons of guys did better than perennial lottery and 1st Round exit - that's what Lebron has been since 2019 except the bubble, which no one counts.

[StrongLurk]

Lebron was horrific every year except 2020, so tons of guys did better than perennial lottery and 1st Round exit - that's what Lebron has been since 2019 except the bubble, which no one counts.

No one counts the 90's, go cry wrapped in your MJ posters :roll:

[Indian guy]

btw, :oldlol: @ how vociferously the Kobe kids are coming in this thread. Their boy's last top 5 regular season came in 2009 at the age of 30 and he was done after that. Massive decline despite mOST sKiLLed eVer!! lol. LeBron was 35 in 2020 and not only turned in a top 5 regular season, but had one of the all time great playoff runs on top of it. There are levels to this shit. This is why LeBron only gets compared to MJ while nobody cares where Kobe ranks.

And good lord did it *** his fans up for eternity. You can tell LeBron ruined their lives to the point where they can't even leave 40 year old LeBron alone.

[dankok8]

God what a dreadful post. I'm the biggest LeBron fan out there and the only season from 2019-2025 that multiple metrics would support as top 5 is 2020. Any truly knowledgeable LeBron fan SHOULD know that his body saw a noticeable decline post-2018 and there's a dramatic decline in his impact stats from 2019 onward. Look it up. And that's ok. He was already 34 when he joined LA and only about 4 players in NBA history managed to be Top 5 till their mid 30's (Kareem, MJ, Malone & LeBron himself). LeBron does have the strongest claim to having the best age 36-40 stretch ever, but he was never top 5 during that span. From 2019-2024 he's more of a Top 10 guy and Top 15 in 2025.

Thank you. :applause:

I agree with absolutely everything you wrote.

[StrongLurk]

Like I said, Lebron is still as accomplished and talented as anybody since 2019 except for Giannis/Jokic.

Others in this thread tried to champion Tatum, Luka, and Curry, but once again none of those guys did anything more notable than Lebron this year. Lebron outplayed Luka vs the Wolves, Curry got hurt right as the second round started and was worse than Lebron was in round one, Tatum was actually solid in the playoffs but round 2 was a disaster with multiple massive chokes and then an unfortunate achilles injury.

And now Tatum won't even play next year.

So yeah, no one has more all-nbas/rings/FMVPs than Lakers Lebron. Jokic/Giannis get the edge due to actually superior stats and MVPs/DPOYs.

[FKAri]

God what a dreadful post. I'm the biggest LeBron fan out there
You're not even close. You don't have what it takes to be an elite Bron stan. It's a step up in competition that most fans aren't built to handle. You'll crumble and fold when face to face with a real Bron stan. Maybe in your block of the hood you can hold that title. But step out of your corner of the World and you'll get that crown snatched in a rapid and embarrassing manner.

[StrongLurk]

Lebron with another all-nba, only guy to do that at 39 and 40 years old, also coming off an Olympic MVP in between those :lol