Nash's 05' season was MUCH WORSE than Stockton's entire prime

[3ba11]

2005 Nash................ 4.7 BPM.... 22.0 PER.... 0.203 WS/48... 4.4 VORP
88-97' Stockton ....... 8.0 BPM.... 22.7 PER.... 0.221 WS/48... 6.3-8.3 VORP


History shows that the high PER athletic force like Lebron or Karl Malone get MVP consideration, not the little setup guy like Stockton or Nash .. Nash actually had a 26 PER teammate and athletic force with Amare, but he got no consideration because the media flipped their normal criteria and decided to go with Nash...

And I promise you it was just the hair... Nash came into camp with a hippy haircut that suited him well and gave him an extra panache that the media fell in love with... All of a sudden Nash wasn't just the setup guy and poor man's Stockton - he became a cult-like figure and a perceived goat leader.. The boring Stockton never got this treatment, so the goat PG (according to Gary Payton and others) was forgotten in the voting each year.

This is why media awards are bullshit... i.e. Kenyon Martin never got a single all-defense, but all he needed early in the season was 1 media member to say "I think Kenyon is playing great defense and an all-defense level" - this would've snowballed by the end of the year so that he was a group-think SHOE-IN for all-defense...

This group-think is how Nash got MVP, and it's how other guys get left out - no one ever said "Kenyon is playing at an all-defense level" or "Stockton is playing at an MVP level", so they never developed the group-think to get considered... Stockton should've gotten a slick haircut to give him that extra panache, so the group think can begin like it did for Nash.

Carry on ... Btw, based on the Nash logic of giving MVP to the little setup guy over the athletic force, Stockton should've won MVP in 1995 and other years.

[SouBeachTalents]

2009-2018 LeBron: 9.7 BPM.... 29.1 PER.... 0.263 WS/48... 83.4 VORP

2001-2010 Kobe: 5.7 BPM.... 24.6 PER.... 0.197 WS/48... 57.6 VORP


Kobe's prime was MUCH WORSE than LeBron's. Carry on.

[3ba11]

2009-2018 LeBron: 9.7 BPM.... 29.1 PER.... 0.263 WS/48... 83.4 VORP

2001-2010 Kobe: 5.7 BPM.... 24.6 PER.... 0.197 WS/48... 57.6 VORP


Kobe's prime was MUCH WORSE than LeBron's. Carry on.


And Lebron got 4 MVP's to Kobe's 1, while Stockton was robbed and didn't get consideration because he's 1) short and 2) boring

[1987_Lakers]

2009-2018 LeBron: 9.7 BPM.... 29.1 PER.... 0.263 WS/48... 83.4 VORP

2001-2010 Kobe: 5.7 BPM.... 24.6 PER.... 0.197 WS/48... 57.6 VORP


Kobe's prime was MUCH WORSE than LeBron's. Carry on.

:roll:

[ShawkFactory]

I think the change from being a 20-something win team to best record in the league in one season and by and large the same roster had something to do with that narrative, no?

Not that he was actually the best player in the league though. Stars aligned for him that year in particular.

[Wardell Curry]

Nash shouldn't have won MVP in 05. I don't remember 06 but Kobe sure as hell was never the real MVP of the league, he just happened to win the award once.

LeBron should have won MVP from like 2007 through 2018 except that one Kevin Durant year.

Then Steph should have won MVP from arguably 2016 through 2021. I would entertain a debate of Steph vs LeBron for 16, 17 & 18.

The actual most valuable player doesn't change all that much from year to year. The media just likes to pretend it does.

[tpols]

Nash had 30 ppg playoff series in 2005. With 12 dimes a game.

The thing about Stockton is his scoring was super weak. He averaged single digits in multiple playoff series in his prime and crashed out at the end averaging like 11 ppg. No offense (and no pun intended) but Johnny boys scoring ability was trash.

Stockton was basically a shorter, poor man's Steve Nash with less scoring ability and the same passing affinity. Actually his passing may have been more genius because he led better team offemses as well. #1 rank almost every year. We know you love your team offense and assist ranks 3ball. Nash dominated that and added his own scoring to the mix.

[3ba11]

I think the change from being a 20-something win team to best record in the league in one season and by and large the same roster had something to do with that narrative, no?

Not that he was actually the best player in the league though. Stars aligned for him that year in particular.


Amare's coming out party was 2005 - look it up - that's the reason the Suns won, in addition to getting rid of cancers Marbury... Nash and his low production had very little to do with it

[SouBeachTalents]

Amare's coming out party was 2005 - look it up - that's the reason the Suns won, in addition to getting rid of cancers Marbury... Nash and his low production had very little to do with it
I'm sure Amar'e didn't benefit from having his PG go from Marbury to Nash, I'm sure his production would've still spiked and he'd be dropping 37 on Duncan's head if Marbury was still there.

[3ba11]

I think the change from being a 20-something win team to best record in the league in one season and by and large the same roster had something to do with that narrative, no?

Not that he was actually the best player in the league though. Stars aligned for him that year in particular.


False.

They got rid of "Cancerbury", while Amare had his coming out party as the new Karl Malone - he was the athletic force and statistical team leader that typically gets MVP consideration, while the lower-producing setup guy never does (i.e. Stockton or Nash)...

22-year Amare averaged 37 on 55% against the Spurs in the playoffs, so he was literally better than 22-year Lebron (22 on 35% and 6 TO's)... A team that gets a rich man's Lebron will obviously have a big turnaround and the rich man's Lebron with the gaudy PER will be the reason why.

Again, you guys are just repeating stuff that you heard on TV without looking into the facts yourself (so I have to do it, smh)

[ShawkFactory]

I'm sure Amar'e didn't benefit from having his PG go from Marbury to Nash, I'm sure his production would've still spiked and he'd be dropping 37 on Duncan's head if Marbury was still there.

:lol

Obviously we both know this is pointless.

[3ba11]

I'm sure Amar'e didn't benefit from having his PG go from Marbury to Nash, I'm sure his production would've still spiked and he'd be dropping 37 on Duncan's head if Marbury was still there.


The same thing goes for Malone, yet he got 3 straight MVP'S (except 2nd to MJ in 97').

So you guys are just wrong - the athletic force with the gaudy PER has always been viewed as the most valuable - the short little setup guy was never viewed as the most valuable until the media fell in love with the white guy with hippy hair.. period... The historical record proves me right... You guys just want to prop up your White Hope with the hippy hair .. it's pathetic, and it's even more pathetic to come on here and make bad excuses for your racism, smh... You guys are SAD

[3ba11]

:lol

Obviously we both know this is pointless.


Cut the act... 22-year old Amare was the 2nd coming of Len Bias and tracking to be the goat PF by dominating Duncan at 22 years old... His catastrophic injury in 06' stopped everything... But the 22-year Amare had exploded on the scene and he would do this with any good point guard at the time , like CP3... So the PG isn't the MVP - the MVP of the team is the guy that's better than Lebron and tracking to be the GOAT PF

[tpols]

I dont think Amare ever did anything without Nash. He was really good for a few months on the Knicks and then totally crashed out. Like... homie was trash after he left Nash and the Suns. His game was too basic. Poor passer. Poor defender. He had a little middy and was a great dunker but Steve could've turned Josh Smith into Amare Stoudamire.

[ShawkFactory]

Cut the act... 22-year old Amare was the 2nd coming of Len Bias and tracking to be the goat PF by dominating Duncan at 22 years old... His catastrophic injury in 06' stopped everything... But the 22-year Amare had exploded on the scene and he would do this with any good point guard at the time , like CP3... So the PG isn't the MVP - the MVP of the team is the guy that's better than Lebron and tracking to be the GOAT PF

No THAT was funny :lol

[3ba11]

I'm sure Amar'e didn't benefit from having his PG go from Marbury to Nash, I'm sure his production would've still spiked and he'd be dropping 37 on Duncan's head if Marbury was still there.


Amare was a freight train that would've won the title with CP3 or many other PG's.. So you don't know basketball and are literally a child when thinking about the game... There was only 1 athletic force that was already better than Lebron and tracking to be the GOAT PF before his injury in 06'.

So I'm right.. And it's literally the consensus - MOST PEOPLE think nash was undeserving... Most players, coaches and fans...

[StrongLurk]

OP can't keep Lebron's name out of his mouth. Mental illness is strong with OP.

[3ba11]

No THAT was funny :lol


Amare could've won and reached his maximum with Chauncey Billups, Tony Parker, Deron Williams, and Chris Paul, just to name a few point guards that were on par with Nash at the time, or even better.. Or he could've been like Barkley, Garnett, Duncan or many other bigs that dominated without good PG's for stretches of their career.. So again, Nash didn't deserve it.

[ShawkFactory]

Amare could've won and reached his maximum with Chauncey Billups, Tony Parker, Deron Williams, and Chris Paul, just to name a few point guards that were on par with Nash at the time, or even better.. Or he could've been like Barkley, Garnett, Duncan or many other bigs that dominated without good PG's for stretches of their career.. So again, Nash didn't deserve it.

Pssshhhhhhhh

He was like a more athletic but less skilled Boogie Cousins. Didn’t impact the game much at all outside of his numbers and doing his own thing.

Fvck outta here comparing him to Duncan or KG :lol

[3ba11]

Pssshhhhhhhh

He was like a more athletic but less skilled Boogie Cousins. Didn’t impact the game much at all outside of his numbers and doing his own thing.

Fvck outta here comparing him to Duncan or KG :lol


You should go back and re-watch Amare in 2005 - his jumper was automatic and already elite.

At 22 years old, he averaged 37 on 55% against the Spurs on a bevy of jumpers from all over the court - he never pounded the ball on the post, or dominated the ball for a nanosecond... Otoh, Nash was the ball-dominator that lost the series and put a lower ceiling on the team in general... Amare would've won titles with a non-ball-dominator with high assisted rate like Chauncey Billups or Curry, who allow more sophisticated brands of ball that win with less.

[3ba11]

.
Thread Cliffs


Stockton was a far superior basketball player to Nash, and this is also the consensus among players:

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/gts76duz3LU


Nash also didn't deserve his MVP's and was simply anointed by the media (media awards mean nothing)

[ShawkFactory]

You should go back and re-watch Amare in 2005 - his jumper was automatic and already elite.

At 22 years old, he averaged 37 on 55% against the Spurs on a bevy of jumpers from all over the court - he never pounded the ball on the post, or dominated the ball for a nanosecond... Otoh, Nash was the ball-dominator that lost the series and put a lower ceiling on the team in general... Amare would've won titles with a non-ball-dominator with high assisted rate like Chauncey Billups or Curry, who allow more sophisticated brands of ball that win with less.

Lol I’ve definitely watched some of those games more recently than you have. Amare was a play-finishing. He had no ability to create offense for others. Which is fine but don’t compare him to guys like Duncan :lol

If you go back and watch some of those games, Duncan was being doubled pretty much every time he touched the ball whereas the Spurs seemed pretty content to just let Amare get his knowing no one else would have anything. The Suns were at their most dangerous when the ball was moving all over the place.

[3ba11]

Lol I’ve definitely watched some of those games more recently than you have. Amare was a play-finishing. He had no ability to create offense for others. Which is fine but don’t compare him to guys like Duncan :lol

If you go back and watch some of those games, Duncan was being doubled pretty much every time he touched the ball whereas the Spurs seemed pretty content to just let Amare get his knowing no one else would have anything. The Suns were at their most dangerous when the ball was moving all over the place.


History shows that dominant bigs like Amare are considered more strongly for MVP than the short setup guy... But regardless, neither Nash nor Amare deserved MVP... Nash didn't deserve it because the dominant producer was Amare, while Nash's numbers were trash with the worst defense ever... But the Nash fraud shows how hypnotizing the media can be just by simply stating something a few times on TV and it catches on so another guy mentions it... And then another... It becomes "common knowledge" by the end of the year.. It's bs.

[3ba11]

If anyone deserves the "white hope" or "Nash treatment" for MVP, it's Stockton because at least Stockon had MVP-level numbers (APG, BPM, VORP, etc) and goat-level defense.

[ShawkFactory]

History shows that dominant bigs like Amare are considered more strongly for MVP than the short setup guy... But regardless, neither Nash nor Amare deserved MVP... Nash didn't deserve it because the dominant producer was Amare, while Nash's numbers were trash with the worst defense ever... But the Nash fraud shows how hypnotizing the media can be just by simply stating something a few times on TV and it catches on so another guy mentions it... And then another... It becomes "common knowledge" by the end of the year.. It's bs.

Who deserved the MVP in 05 then?

[3ba11]

Who deserved the MVP in 05 then?


We've always gone by the biggest producers that had a decent team record, so that means Dirk in 2005... 58 wins.. premium stats... Or Shaq... And honestly, Amare too, because the media could easily show a few instances of him completely dominating games with league-best athleticism and position this as "MVP" just like they did Nash's haircut... It's very easy for the media to do.. it's WHAT they do... Btw, I think you're downplaying the pre-injury Amare - he was basically like Shaq but with a jumper - he had 6 forty-point games and 29 thirty point games at 22 years old - he was a phenom and headed for greatness.. I wouldn't say this if his jumper wasn't lights out (at 22).

[ShawkFactory]

We've always gone by the biggest producers that had a decent team record, so that means Dirk in 2005... 58 wins.. premium stats... Or Shaq... And honestly, Amare too, because the media could easily show a few instances of him completely dominating games with league-best athleticism and position this as "MVP" just like they did Nash's haircut... It's very easy for the media to do.. it's WHAT they do... Btw, I think you're downplaying the pre-injury Amare - he was basically like Shaq but with a jumper - he had 6 forty-point games and 29 thirty point games at 22 years old - he was a phenom and headed for greatness.. I wouldn't say this if his jumper wasn't lights out (at 22).

Yea his middy jumper was solid for sure. But you certainly have a way with hyperbole :lol

He didn’t have much of a back-to-the-basket game at all really, much less Shaq level. Not that it was truly weak but he was best as a face-up guy and a rim runner.

Maybe like a smaller Embiid without the defense?

[3ba11]

Yea his middy jumper was solid for sure. But you certainly have a way with hyperbole :lol

He didn’t have much of a back-to-the-basket game at all really, much less Shaq level. Not that it was truly weak but he was best as a face-up guy and a rim runner.

Maybe like a smaller Embiid without the defense?


22-year old Shaq didn't have much of a back-to-the-basket shot-making either aside from dunks.. At least Amare could shoot all kinds of mid-range and FT's.

[ShawkFactory]

22-year old Shaq didn't have much of a back-to-the-basket shot-making either aside from dunks.. At least Amare could shoot all kinds of mid-range and FT's.

What? lol

Shaq could never remotely shoot and his whole half court offense was being skilled and dominant in the post.

[3ba11]

What? lol

Shaq could never remotely shoot and his whole half court offense was being skilled and dominant in the post.


Shaq was a dunker and bully-ball guy.. Amare could actually play more ways since he was elite at PNR

[ShawkFactory]

Shaq was a dunker and bully-ball guy.. Amare could actually playote ways since he was elite at PNR

Yea…

Amare was not. You’re the one who compared the two

[3ba11]

Yea…

Amare was not. You’re the one who compared the two


22-year Amare was headed for greatness and was better than 22-year Lebron.. 22-year Lebron had zero moves and zero shot - Amare was better mid-range shooter and better FT's ... Amare could dominate the Spurs while Lebron played worse than anyone ever has

I point out Amare being better than Lebron to demonstrate his greatness... he was far better than you're saying... Better than Lebron at that age... Goat athlete + feathery mid-range at 22 = len bias

[ShawkFactory]

22-year Amare was headed for greatness and was better than 22-year Lebron.. 22-year Lebron had zero moves and zero shot - Amare was better mid-range shooter and better FT's ... Amare could dominate the Spurs while Lebron played worse than anyone ever has

I point out Amare being better than Lebron to demonstrate his greatness... he was far better than you're saying... Better than Lebron at that age... Goat athlete + feathery mid-range at 22 = len bias

22 y/o Bron was a 30ppg scorer leading a backwoods team to the finals. I don’t think they’re situations were the same, my guy.

[04mzwach]

Amare was much better than you give him credit for. He could have been 30+ppg scorer until his knee. He was quick twitch like Shawn Marion yet powerful like Duncan. I'm not sure if we've ever had an athlete like Amare at center. He could have been an NBA legend. Watch some of his early day highlights. He was unstoppable. It's almost like teams gave up on defense in some of the games. Cut to the basket and launched himself in the air many times per game, not many people want to get in front of that. He was a freight train, bigger than Lebron but still fast. He did seem similar to Shawn Kemp. His free throw percentage was always good too, not the norm for centers. Dude could have been Shaq dominant with offense and good free throw shooting.

[Baller234]

Disclaimer: I think the MVP award is ultimately meaningless. It's the equivalent to winning an oscar.

Having said that, if you are going to play those games and give an award to the person who had the best overall regular season, then yes absolutely Nash was the best choice those years. It doesn't mean he was the singular best player but he damn sure had the best season.

If you're gonna give D'Antoni COY then you have give Nash MVP because I don't think there was another PG in the league outside of Nash from 04-07 who could run that system the way he did. Without Nash it doesn't work. Him being an elite passer and elite shooter is what made it work. The fact that Amare missed all of the following year and the team barely missed a beat is further testament to that.

I would say those Suns might best team of my lifetime not to win a championship. When they were at their peak, with Nash and Amare both going hard, and the stacked shooters... they were a GREAT team. At least offensively.

[NBAGOAT]

box score stats overrate stockton and underrate nash. Most of amares scoring was assisted, most of malones scoring was not. stockton passed to guys who made contested shots, nash was creating open shots for teammates and much more of a scoring threat. 88-94 stocktons statistical prime the jazz had a top 5 offense once. from 04-10 the lowest offense nash lead was 2nd in the league lol. stocktons only case is defense tbf its a good one but the 2 are not on same lvl offensively