NO ONE THOUGHT the bulls were stacked in the 90's - it's 100% fabrication by new fans

[3ba11]

The Bulls lacked rim protection and scoring help, such as 3rd, 4th, or 5th scorers that every other team had - even bad teams... Kukoc, Longley, Kerr, Harper, and Rodman were role players that every team had... No one thought this was "stacked" and people viewed it as a thin roster.. It's simply FAKE NEWS by new fans and media to look back after 30 years and say 6 chips = stacked roster.. It's objectively false and nothing more than propaganda

[ShawkFactory]

In 1998 only, perhaps. But at that point pretty much every roster was "thin". Expansion taking its toll, ya know?

[3ba11]

Here's Magic and Isiah in 1993 saying that the Bulls rely on MJ too much and their casts were far better than the Bulls - they're comparing the Bulls to the 80's dynasties but it shows that the Bulls weren't stacked:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=N6og_pOVi2w&t=199s&pp=ygUXbWFnaWMgc2F5cyBtaiBnb2F0IDE5OTM%3D&t=32s

[3ba11]

In 1998 only, perhaps. But at that point pretty much every roster was "thin". Expansion taking its toll, ya know?


Again, you weren't there and are making stuff up.

The Knicks, Lakers, Sonics, Blazers, and Jazz weren't expansion teams and had far better rosters than the Bulls, while the Magic were expansion but had Shaq and rich man's Pippen (Penny) but couldn't win anything.

Let's look at the Knicks - Mark Jackson is an all-time floor general than destroys Paxson, while the Knicks had 4 Horace Grants and 2 guys to match or outplay Pippen (X-Man and Starks).. they're roster was far superior.

This is also true for the 97' Heat, who had better defensive personnel and more offensive help, such as better scorers than Pippen at 3rd option (Mashburn)... Meanwhile, the Sonics had Schrempf and Hawkins at 3rd and 4th option... The Blazers' and Lakers had 3rd, 4th, and 5th scorers and the Blazers had FAR greater defensive personnel and rankings

Again, you're simply lying.

[tpols]

The Bulls were massive pre season favorites to win the title in 1992, 1993, 1996, 1997, and 1998.

1991 was the only year they weren't.

[tpols]

In 1998 only, perhaps. But at that point pretty much every roster was "thin". Expansion taking its toll, ya know?

The Bulls were huge favorites to win the title in 1998. +140 odds. Next closest was Utah at +600.

[Baller234]

In 1998 only, perhaps. But at that point pretty much every roster was "thin". Expansion taking its toll, ya know?

Who the hell thought the Bulls were stacked during the first 3-peat?

Jordan - best player in the league
Pippen - complimentary player who developed into a star (but did not make all-star the first year they won)
Grant - good player but FAR from irreplaceable

After that it's straight up role players and plug in guys. They never had a solid big on the scoring end. Cartwright and Purdue were there to guard the other team's big.

Now defensively yes they were studs because Jordan-Pippen-Grant is a nightmare. But again outside of them that was it. Everyone else was expendable.

So I'm not seeing how this a stacked team. The 92-93 Suns, now THAT was a stacked team. The goat needed to average 40 a game in the finals just to beat them.

[tpols]

Who the hell thought the Bulls were stacked during the first 3-peat?

Jordan - best player in the league
Pippen - complimentary player who developed into a star (but did not make all-star the first year they won)
Grant - good player but FAR from irreplaceable

After that it's straight up role players and plug in guys. They never had a solid big on the scoring end. Cartwright and Purdue were there to guard the other team's big.

Now defensively yes they were studs because Jordan-Pippen-Grant is a nightmare. But again outside of them that was it. Everyone else was expendable.

So I'm not seeing how this a stacked team. The 92-93 Suns, now THAT was a stacked team. The goat needed to average 40 a game in the finals just to beat them.

The Suns were big betting underdogs to the Bulls in 1993 even with Charles Barkley.

You guys are making stuff up now and rewriting the narrative.

[Baller234]

The Suns were big betting underdogs to the Bulls in 1993 even with Charles Barkley.

You guys are making stuff up now and rewriting the narrative.

Rewriting the narrative? Lol you might wanna check the odds for the entire playoffs that year because going into the 1st round, the Suns were the betting favorite to win. The Bulls didn't even have homecourt in the East that year.

The general consensus probably changed after the Bulls won 4 straight against the Knicks in the ECF. The Suns were stacked but the Bulls had the GOAT and they were going in as repeat champs.

Anyone who denies that the Suns were stacked isn't being honest. Relative to the era they were a powerhouse.

[3ba11]

The Bulls were massive pre season favorites to win the title in 1992, 1993, 1996, 1997, and 1998.

1991 was the only year they weren't.


That's because Jordan had finally broke through and won the title, so he was favored every year after that (and came through).. it had nothing to do with a stacked roster and NO ONE THOUGHT THAT.. everyone thought the bulls' roster was thin during the first 3-peat, so you're just changing history - Magic/Isiah said the bulls were "only about MJ" (clips posted above), so you guys are just lying and spouting Klutch talking points.. you've been hypnotized and don't realize it.. The bulls were never considered stacked and they lacked the rim protector and scoring help that every other team had.. so again, you guys are just liars at this point

[3ba11]

The Bulls were huge favorites to win the title in 1998. +140 odds. Next closest was Utah at +600.


Because they already won 5, so of course they were favored in the 98' preseason...

This has nothing to do with their actual roster

Show me where the stars are?

Show me where they had 3rd, 4th, and 5th scorers like all their opponents?

The bulls were all MJ and not much else - the stats show that clearly

They're the only team to win a title with only 2 guys in double figures (97')

[tpols]

Rewriting the narrative? Lol you might wanna check the odds for the entire playoffs that year because going into the 1st round, the Suns were the betting favorite to win. The Bulls didn't even have homecourt in the East that year.

The general consensus probably changed after the Bulls won 4 straight against the Knicks in the ECF. The Suns were stacked but the Bulls had the GOAT and they were going in as repeat champs.

Anyone who denies that the Suns were stacked isn't being honest. Relative to the era they were a powerhouse.

The Bulls were big -240 favorites vs Pheonix Suns in the 1993 NBA Finals, my guy. And they were even bigger favorites at the start of the season.

Like what the **** are you talking about...? :lol

Seriously...

[tpols]

Because they already won 5, so of course they were favored in the 98' preseason...

This has nothing to do with their actual roster

Show me where the stars are?

Show me where they had 3rd, 4th, and 5th scorers like all their opponents?

The bulls were all MJ and not much else - the stats show that clearly

They're the only team to win a title with only 2 guys in double figures (97')

But you used title odds against Lebron for a million posts.

:biggums:

Keep it consistent at least.

[Kblaze8855]

https://i.ibb.co/KjZ0YJDk/IMG-1858.jpg

[Baller234]

The Bulls were big -240 favorites vs Pheonix Suns in the 1993 NBA Finals, my guy. And they were even bigger favorites at the start of the season.

Like what the **** are you talking about...? :lol

Seriously...

Who do you think you're fooling here? Why can't you just admit you jumped the gun? The finals odds doesn't mean the Bulls were the favorites the entire time. I already told you the Suns were the favorites to start the playoffs. You're free to look it up. The Suns had the best record in the league heading into the playoffs and the Bulls didn't have homecourt.

Is this really the hill you wanna die on? That the Suns weren't a great team?

[tpols]

Who do you think you're fooling here? Why can't you just admit you jumped the gun? The finals odds doesn't mean the Bulls were the favorites the entire time. I already told you the Suns were the favorites to start the playoffs. You're free to look it up. The Suns had the best record in the league heading into the playoffs and the Bulls didn't have homecourt.

Is this really the hill you wanna die on? That the Suns weren't a great team?

Bro they were favorites at the start and end of the season. Not just the Finals. The Bulls were +120 to win the title at the start of the season, nobody else was even close.

Im using the whole year sample size and then what the odds were when the two teams met up. It doesnt get anymore complete than that.

[Baller234]

Bro they were favorites at the start and end of the season. Not just the Finals. The Bulls were +120 at the start of the season, nobody else was even close. I'm using the whole year sample size.

Uh, okay? They were repeat champs. Of course they would be the obvious favorites. It doesn't mean they were a stacked team. They didn't have talent up and down the roster.

They just had the goat.

[tpols]

Uh, okay? They were repeat champs.


Oh now you surrender the point huh. :lol

[SouBeachTalents]

Rewriting the narrative? Lol you might wanna check the odds for the entire playoffs that year because going into the 1st round, the Suns were the betting favorite to win. The Bulls didn't even have homecourt in the East that year.

The general consensus probably changed after the Bulls won 4 straight against the Knicks in the ECF. The Suns were stacked but the Bulls had the GOAT and they were going in as repeat champs.

Anyone who denies that the Suns were stacked isn't being honest. Relative to the era they were a powerhouse.
Is Barkley, KJ missing half the year with injury and having by FAR the worst season of his prime & Majerle really that stacked of a team? Are we forgetting this team lost 7 times just on their way to the Finals, and actually trailed 2-0 in the first round to a 39 win Laker team.

I think you're letting nostalgic bias affect your judgement of this team a little bit.

[Baller234]

Oh now you surrender the point huh. :lol

The argument is whether or not the team was stacked.

[Baller234]

Is Barkley, KJ missing half the year with injury and having by FAR the worst season of his prime & Majerle really that stacked of a team? Are we forgetting this team lost 7 times just on their way to the Finals, and actually trailed 2-0 in the first round to a 39 win Laker team.

I think you're letting nostalgic bias affect your judgement of this team a little bit.

We can play that game all that day. The '08 Celtics got pushed to the brink by the 8th seed Hawks.

Determining whether a team is stacked or not has nothing to do with how they execute after the fact. A team is stacked if they are loaded with talent. If they fail to meet expectations that's an entirely different matter.

[3ba11]

But you used title odds against Lebron for a million posts.

:biggums:

Keep it consistent at least.


In 1992, the Bulls had the exact same roster that was considered underdogs in the 1991 preseason.. So it's the same underdog roster, but now it's favored because Jordan WON with that underdog roster.

So the roster wasn't favored for it's talent- it was favored because Jordan had shown he could win with it.

Otoh, Lebron's teams were preseason favorites from 2011 to 2016 based on talent alone, so the fall to Finals underdog is Lebron's fault - he couldn't produce a 60-win team despite having the favored roster.. Accordingly, I cite the odds for Lebron because he's given the best roster (preseason favorite) but then falls to underdog or loser for 6 straight years (except the Allen miracle).. It's bball 101 that teams win based on talent and/or chemistry, so Lebron's fall to underdog every proves that his chemistry is bad (worst-ever).

[SouBeachTalents]

We can play that game all that day. The '08 Celtics got pushed to the brink by the 8th seed Hawks.

Determining whether a team is stacked or not has nothing to do with how they execute after the fact. A team is stacked if they are loaded with talent. If they fail to meet expectations that's an entirely different matter.
But it's the results and the roster, the 2nd option had a down year and Majerle is for such a nice 3rd option, but stacked? I genuinely disagree with that assertion. The fact they struggled so mightily in the playoffs only strenghtens the argument this team really wasn't as talented as you're making them out to be.

[Wardell Curry]

Here's Magic and Isiah in 1993 saying that the Bulls rely on MJ too much and their casts were far better than the Bulls - they're comparing the Bulls to the 80's dynasties but it shows that the Bulls weren't stacked:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=N6og_pOVi2w&t=199s&pp=ygUXbWFnaWMgc2F5cyBtaiBnb2F0IDE5OTM%3D&t=32s

Ah yes, Magic and Isiah. The absolute beacons of truth, intelligence and wisdom for basketball analysis. lol lmao.

How'd the 94 Bulls do btw for such a shit team that was supposedly all MJ?

[3ba11]

How'd the 94 Bulls do btw for such a shit team that was supposedly all MJ?





Destroyed by Ewing in the 2nd Round and barely .500 the next season before MJ returned... The goat dynasty fell to barely.500 in no time

So pretty shitty

[3ba11]

Ah yes, Magic and Isiah. The absolute beacons of truth, intelligence and wisdom for basketball analysis. lol lmao.





They were stating the obvious that everyone already knew - the Bulls had a very thin roster

(that required MJ to average 41)]

It's easy to forget that the Bulls/Suns averaged exactly 106.7 ppg and 113.0 ortg, so all of the 41 ppg was needed, especially with Pippen at 46.9% true shooting (so he couldn't handle additional load)... By definition, if a team needs 41 ppg to win, then they have a thin roster

[Soundwave]

The Bulls were massive pre season favorites to win the title in 1992, 1993, 1996, 1997, and 1998.

1991 was the only year they weren't.

They weren't massive favorites in 1995-1996 going into that season. A lot of people favored the Orlando Magic, the Bulls were slightly favored but not by a huge margin (+350 for the Bulls, +400 for the Magic ... this is not a huge spread).

They would be clear favorites in 92, 93, 97, and 98, but there's nothing too shocking about that, they were defending champs and had Jordan, the best player ever, not too many people are going to bet against that.

[3ba11]

Jordan won with an underdog roster in 1991, so this exact same roster was favored thereafter

This is different from Lebron getting preseason favorite by forming a big 3 in 2011.

Now can we get off the preseason odds incompetent argument and deflection that tbums brought up?.

The Bulls had a thin roster based on lack of rim protection and massive deficit of scoring help compared to other rosters

[ShawkFactory]

Destroyed by Ewing in the 2nd Round and barely .500 the next season before MJ returned... The goat dynasty fell to barely.500 in no time

So pretty shitty

:lol

[3ba11]

:lol


^^^I feel like that's an alley, so I'll oop:



When Pippen met Ewing in the 94' Playoffs, Ewing proved easily superior, as expected:



EWING..... 18.7 gmsc... clutch in 4th
PIPPEN.... 15.6 gmsc... 3.0 on 20% in 4th quarter (https://i.makeagif.com/media/11-21-2021/jbCxdB.gif) and numerous HISTORIC chokes (https://i.makeagif.com/media/5-21-2024/21yvSq.gif)



https://i.makeagif.com/media/5-16-2025/pVPeW1.gif

https://i.makeagif.com/media/5-21-2024/21yvSq.gif

https://i.makeagif.com/media/4-28-2024/5EZjOa.gif



Pippen was never a franchise player that built a team from scratch... He was simply handed the goat dynasty, which he cratered to barely .500 in less than 18 months..

Any decent scorer would supplant Pippen as 1st option, so building around Pippen would restrict a team's capacity to add talent.. This is why secondary producers like Pippen, Klay, or Middleton aren't franchise players.

[SouBeachTalents]

Fun fact, the '94 Bulls won more regular season & playoff games without Jordan than the '03 Lakers did also coming off a 3peat with Shaq & Kobe.

[3ba11]

Btw, Ewing literally was literally Michael Jordan in the 4th quarter of the 94' 2nd Round

[3ba11]

Fun fact, the '94 Bulls won more regular season & playoff games without Jordan than the '03 Lakers did also coming off a 3peat with Shaq & Kobe.


You're saying that a flukey regular season and embarrassed in 2nd Round = 3-peat Shaq/Kobe

So that means you're wrong... When all the factors that propped the Bulls up in 94' regular season were no longer there (sleeping opponents, no expectation, honeymoon period), the Bulls were 2nd Round loser and barely.500 in 95' before MJ returned.

[SouBeachTalents]

You're saying that a flukey regular season and embarrassed in 2nd Round = 3-peat Shaq/Kobe

So that means you're wrong... When all the factors that propped the Bulls up in 94' regular season were no longer there (sleeping opponents, no expectation, honeymoon period), the Bulls were 2nd Round loser and barely.500 in 95' before MJ returned.
They also won more playoff games in '94 than they did with Jordan back in '95.

[ShawkFactory]

^^^I feel like that's an alley, so I'll oop:




I'm sure you don't..but you responded anyway :lol

Anyway, that series has been litigated how many times in the past? No need to do it again, everyone knows how it actually went down. Very tightly contested series that could have gone either way.

[3ba11]

I'm sure you don't..but you responded anyway :lol

Anyway, that series has been litigated how many times in the past? No need to do it again, everyone knows how it actually went down. Very tightly contested series that could have gone either way.


You're lying again... The Knicks were on their way to a 3-0 lead until the Kukoc miracle and Pippen sit-out fiasco, which adrenalized and changed the series... The Bulls started scraping and clawing to a 3-3 tie despite Pippen averaging 3.0 on 20% in the 4th quarter - the championship grit and brand was surviving in spite of Pippen.

And the series was never "litigated"... You made that up... The media loved the 3-peat Bulls and wanted them to win, so they were mad about the Hubert Davis foul and said it was a bad call... But a true "litigation" of the call and the series has never happened outside of my posts on this forum - the posts show the foul in slow-motion and still photo, while also showing Pippen's 4th quarter stats and the Ewing/Pippen stat comparison.. They also show gifs of various botched plays by Pippen, and even show Phil's reaction (pissed at Pippen).

So you're wrong every level because you take a bunch of journalism majors at their word about something they know nothing about.

[ShawkFactory]

You're lying again... The Knicks were on their way to a 3-0 lead until the Kukoc miracle and Pippen sit-out fiasco, which adrenalized and changed the series... The Bulls started scraping and clawing to a 3-3 tie despite Pippen averaging 3.0 on 20% in the 4th quarter - the championship grit and brand was surviving in spite of Pippen.

And the series was never "litigated"... You made that up... The media loved the 3-peat Bulls and wanted them to win, so they were mad about the Hubert Davis foul and said it was a bad call... But a true "litigation" of the call and the series has never happened outside of my posts on this forum - the posts show the foul in slow-motion and still photo, while also showing Pippen's 4th quarter stats and the Ewing/Pippen stat comparison.. They also show gifs of various botched plays by Pippen, and even show Phil's reaction (pissed at Pippen).

So you're wrong every level because you take a bunch of journalism majors at their word about something they know nothing about.

I....


...you what, just leave it Shawk. Just leave it.

[3ba11]

They also won more playoff games in '94 than they did with Jordan back in '95.


Pippen was horrific vs Ewing, so the Bulls produced a tight series in spite of Pippen and due to other factors like 3-peat chemistry... But their chemistry needed a training camp and regular season when MJ returned in 95' - that's the only reason they lost to the Magic (and then beat them 2014 Spurs-style in 96')

[StrongLurk]

I....


...you what, just leave it Shawk. Just leave it.

The guy is mentally ill. He'd start spouting the sky is green if it somehow made MJ look better and Pip/Lebron look worse.

[Duffy Pratt]

They won 55 games without the best player in the world. They were stacked.

[3ba11]

They won 55 games without the best player in the world. They were stacked.


Many bad teams win 55 games, especially in a one-off

When all the factors that propped up the Bulls during the 94' regular season were no longer there (sleeping opponents, no expectation, honeymoon period), the Bulls were 2nd Round loser and barely.500 in 95' before MJ returned.

Pippen was never a franchise player that built a team from scratch... He was simply handed the goat dynasty, which he cratered to barely .500 in less than 18 months..

Any decent scorer would supplant Pippen as 1st option, so building around Pippen would restrict a team's capacity to add talent.. This is why secondary producers like Pippen, Klay, or Middleton aren't franchise players

[Duffy Pratt]

Many bad teams win 55 games, especially in a one-off

When all the factors that propped up the Bulls during the 94' regular season were no longer there (sleeping opponents, no expectation, honeymoon period), the Bulls were 2nd Round loser and barely.500 in 95' before MJ returned.

Pippen was never a franchise player that built a team from scratch... He was simply handed the goat dynasty, which he cratered to barely .500 in less than 18 months..

Any decent scorer would supplant Pippen as 1st option, so building around Pippen would restrict a team's capacity to add talent.. This is why secondary producers like Pippen, Klay, or Middleton aren't franchise players

When Magic left the Lakers, they dropped 14 games.
When Walton got injured, Portland dropped 13 games.
When Russell retired, the Celtics dropped 15 games.
When Rose got injured, the Bulls dropped 11 games without him playing half the season, and then another 5 (to 16 total) the following year.
When the Celtics lost Reggie Lewis, they dropped 16 games.
When Shaq left the Lakers they dropped 22 games.
When LeBron left the Cavs they dropped 42 games, and then again they dropped 31 games.
When Oscar retired, the Bucks dropped 22 games.

When Jordan quit the Bulls, they dropped 2 games. They were stacked.

Spew all the BS you want.

How many games would Denver win if Jokic was injured for a year? How about the 94 Rockets without Hakeem? Or Dallas without Dirk? Anyone with half a brain knows that you are just pigheaded and wrong.\

[RRR3]

When Magic left the Lakers, they dropped 14 games.
When Walton got injured, Portland dropped 13 games.
When Russell retired, the Celtics dropped 15 games.
When Rose got injured, the Bulls dropped 11 games without him playing half the season, and then another 5 (to 16 total) the following year.
When the Celtics lost Reggie Lewis, they dropped 16 games.

When Jordan quit the Bulls, they dropped 2 games.

Spew all the BS you want.

How many games would Denver win if Jokic was injured for a year? How about the 94 Rockets without Hakeem? Or Dallas without Dirk? Anyone with half a brain knows that you are just pigheaded and wrong.\
MJ had less impact than Reggie Lewis, damn.

[Duffy Pratt]

MJ had less impact than Reggie Lewis, damn.

As a rookie, the Bulls went from 27-38 wins. Then he got hurt, and they dropped to 30 wins, and then up to 42 the following year when healthy again.

Then they built their championship roster and installed the triangle. With the stacked team they dropped only 2 games losing Jordan. Then they dropped to 500 losing Horace Grant (a change 3 Ball never mentions when talking about 94 and 95).

[Baller234]

But it's the results and the roster, the 2nd option had a down year and Majerle is for such a nice 3rd option, but stacked? I genuinely disagree with that assertion. The fact they struggled so mightily in the playoffs only strenghtens the argument this team really wasn't as talented as you're making them out to be.

Talent doesn't automatically mean results. A team can be talented on paper but still fall short of expectations. It happens all the time. More than just talent is required to win.

The 08 Celtics had way more talent than the 08 Hawks but they were still pushed to 7 games. Sometimes that's just the way it is. They still won. I'm not gonna dock points from the Suns just because they didn't cruise to the finals. They still made the finals.

I'm talking about the talent they had on the team. Talent wise the Suns were stacked compared to the rest of the league. Definitely more talent than the Bulls from top to bottom. They had 7 guys averaging double figures that year, led by an elite star player. The highest scoring offense in the league. Whether or not they lived up to expectations is an entirely different argument.

The moral of the story is that the Bulls were NOT stacked. There were other talented teams from that era. The difference was the Bulls had Jordan.

[3ba11]

As a rookie, the Bulls went from 27-38 wins. Then he got hurt, and they dropped to 30 wins, and then up to 42 the following year when healthy again.



Bulls were 21-43 without Jordan in his 2nd season, and 9-9 with him... But after Jordan surprised management by returning from injury so well in the 86' Playoffs, they cleaned house entering the next season by removing the top 2 options from the 86' regular season (Woolridge, Gervin).. It was okay for Jordan because he was entering his peak years and would still produce a .500 team with a worse cast than he had in 85'.

[3ba11]

Then they built their championship roster and installed the triangle. With the stacked team they dropped only 2 games losing Jordan. Then they dropped to 500 losing Horace Grant (a change 3 Ball never mentions when talking about 94 and 95).





The Bulls weren't viewed as a championship roster until they had won the title.

The same rosters that were preseason underdogs from 88' to 91' were now favorites thereafter once Jordan showed that he could win with them.. Once Jordan proved he could get rings with underdogs, the same rosters became favorites thereafter... This winning spotlight inflated low-producing and "underdog" teammates like Pippen to all-time status and media accolade, despite never playing above a Larry Nance or Iguodala caliber..

And the only guys to win with the pure triangle are MJ or his clone (Kobe), so winning with the triangle is a goat achievement - it isn't something anyone can do, or Lebron would've used it to win 6 titles... The Spurs and Warriors used hybrids and aspects of the triangle, and all these ball movement systems used by dynasties required ELITE off-ball players - this precludes ball-dominators like Lebron, Luka and SGA from ever having a dynasty.

[3ba11]

.
.
The only title team to win with only 2 double-figure scorers (1997 Bulls):




https://i.makeagif.com/media/5-20-2025/V0ZQE8.gif



Notice how 35-year old Rodman averaged 3/8 on 35% for the entire 97' Playoffs, which is why Kukoc was the starting PF for the 98' Playoffs and Rodman came off the bench..

With a legitimate 2nd scorer in the starting lineup for the first time ever, Kukoc was 2nd on the Bulls in 4th quarter scoring for the 98' Playoffs.. Any decent scorer easily supplants Pippen as 1st option or 2nd option, so building around Pippen restricts a team's capacity to add talent.. This is why secondary producers like Pippen, Klay, or Middleton aren't franchise players

[SouBeachTalents]

.
.
The only title team to win with only 2 double-figure scorers (1997 Bulls):




https://i.makeagif.com/media/5-20-2025/V0ZQE8.gif



Notice how 35-year old Rodman averaged 3/8 on 35% for the entire 97' Playoffs, which is why Kukoc was the starting PF for the 98' Playoffs and Rodman came off the bench..

With a legitimate 2nd scorer in the starting lineup for the first time ever, Kukoc was 2nd on the Bulls in 4th quarter scoring for the 98' Playoffs.. Any decent scorer easily supplants Pippen as 1st option or 2nd option, so building around Pippen restricts a team's capacity to add talent.. This is why secondary producers like Pippen, Klay, or Middleton aren't franchise players
Yet Pippen outscored everyone on the Hawks, outscored Zo and was only .5 points off from Hardaway, outscored Stockton by 5 ppg, and wasn't even that far off from Malone production wise in the Finals.

[Full Court]

In 1998 only, perhaps. But at that point pretty much every roster was "thin". Expansion taking its toll, ya know?

That is completely not true. I'm pretty sure the Bulls were even the underdogs in the '91 finals.

[SouBeachTalents]

That is completely not true. I'm pretty sure the Bulls were even the underdogs in the '91 finals.
Nope, the Bulls were -200 to win that series. It's pretty rare for the team with HCA to be the underdog in the Finals.

[97 bulls]

Maybe not the first 3peat team, but the 2nd was definitely stacked. You can't have an alltime great conversation about rebounding without Dennis Rodman being the focal point. You can't have a conversation about the alltime greatest defenders without Rodman and Pippen and Jordan. You can't have a conversation about the alltime great 3pt shooters without Steve Kerr. You can't have a conversation about the greatest coaches ever without Phil Jackson. You cant have an alltime great conversation about the best non american players without Toni Kukoc. And Jordan
is the GOAT.

72, 69, and 62 wins over a 3 year span. Take Jordan off the team? Still win 55 games. Pippen miss half the season? Still win 62 games. Rodman misses almost half the season? The Bulls still win 69 games

That team will have 7 Hall of farmers when it's all said and done. Jordan, Pippen, Rodman, Kukoc, Jackson, Tex Winter, and Steve Kerr. And Harper may get the nod eventually.

They're PG was a 20ppg that was related to playing a defensive role.

How can this team not be stacked?

[Baller234]

Maybe not the first 3peat team, but the 2nd was definitely stacked. You can't have an alltime great conversation about rebounding without Dennis Rodman being the focal point. You can't have a conversation about the alltime greatest defenders without Rodman and Pippen and Jordan. You can't have a conversation about the alltime great 3pt shooters without Steve Kerr. You can't have a conversation about the greatest coaches ever without Phil Jackson. You cant have an alltime great conversation about the best non american players without Toni Kukoc. And Jordan
is the GOAT.

72, 69, and 62 wins over a 3 year span. Take Jordan off the team? Still win 55 games. Pippen miss half the season? Still win 62 games. Rodman misses almost half the season? The Bulls still win 69 games

That team will have 7 Hall of farmers when it's all said and done. Jordan, Pippen, Rodman, Kukoc, Jackson, Tex Winter, and Steve Kerr. And Harper may get the nod eventually.

They're PG was a 20ppg that was related to playing a defensive role.

How can this team not be stacked?

Eh I will meet you halfway.

I think you could argue the second 3peat team was stacked, but half the guys you mentioned are irrelevant. Kukoc? Good player definitely, but far from being irreplaceable. Steve Kerr? He was a plug in guy. Great shooter obviously but he brought little else to the table. Definitely not irreplaceable. Not the only guy in the league that could wait for the ball and shoot 3's.

Obviously these guys contributed in their own way, and they deserve credit for making the Bulls as good as they were, but when discussing "stacked" teams I think you have to look at how many guys on the team are hard to replace. The guys where either no comps exist or there's only a small handful. So really it just boils down to Jordan, Pippen and Rodman. Of course you can throw Phil in there too I guess.

So yea definitely a GREAT team, but in terms of all time stacked teams? They only feel so stacked because Jordan was so dominant. Purely from a talent standpoint there are other teams throughout history I would put ahead of them.

[Full Court]

Nope, the Bulls were -200 to win that series. It's pretty rare for the team with HCA to be the underdog in the Finals.

What's your source on that?

[97 bulls]

Eh I will meet you halfway.

I think you could argue the second 3peat team was stacked, but half the guys you mentioned are irrelevant. Kukoc? Good player definitely, but far from being irreplaceable. Steve Kerr? He was a plug in guy. Great shooter obviously but he brought little else to the table. Definitely not irreplaceable. Not the only guy in the league that could wait for the ball and shoot 3's.

Obviously these guys contributed in their own way, and they deserve credit for making the Bulls as good as they were, but when discussing "stacked" teams I think you have to look at how many guys on the team are hard to replace. The guys where either no comps exist or there's only a small handful. So really it just boils down to Jordan, Pippen and Rodman. Of course you can throw Phil in there too I guess.

So yea definitely a GREAT team, but in terms of all time stacked teams? They only feel so stacked because Jordan was so dominant. Purely from a talent standpoint there are other teams throughout history I would put ahead of them.

As I've said many times, the proof is in the pudding. The Bulls are the only team that I remember that can say they were still very competitive without their best player. Not the Lakers, not the Celtics, not the Pistons.

Kukoc is a Hall of Fame talent. He's easily a 20/7/7 guy with his own team. Would they win a championship with him as the teams best player? No. But neither could Ginobli, or McHale, or Bosh, or Worthy or alot of other "talented" players on dynasty teams.

I see Kukoc led team as being a mid 40 to at best high 40 win team with him as the best player and having decent talent around him. Not Brent Barry and a 35 year old Ron Harper.

[plowking]

Dennis Rodman was 12th in MVP voting prior to joining the Bulls, and all NBA third team. Defensive third team.
Just want to point out Bosh has only ever made one All NBA team and it was well before joining the Heat.

Ron Harper was a 20/6/5 guy the year prior to joining the Bulls.
Toni Kukoc was the most hyped prospect coming out of Europe at the time.
Steve Kerr is one of the most automatic 3 point shots ever.

[red1]

bulls too stacked


everyone knows it. it's common knowledge that pippen carried the bulls to 55-wins.



helluva a squad, those bulls.

[red1]

Dennis Rodman was 12th in MVP voting prior to joining the Bulls, and all NBA third team. Defensive third team.
Just want to point out Bosh has only ever made one All NBA team and it was well before joining the Heat.

Ron Harper was a 20/6/5 guy the year prior to joining the Bulls.
Toni Kukoc was the most hyped prospect coming out of Europe at the time.
Steve Kerr is one of the most automatic 3 point shots ever.

and then when you look at the teams they were beating - not nearly as stacked


what was the best team that bulls beat? the jazz? the kareem-less past prime lakers?


competition was very weak back then tbh. bulls won 55-games and went game 7 of the ECF without a minute's contribution from mj.

[3ba11]

Nope, the Bulls were -200 to win that series. It's pretty rare for the team with HCA to be the underdog in the Finals.


favorite doesn't always = great roster or better roster... The 91' Bulls weren't favored in the preseason, but after MJ won with them, the same underdog roster was favored thereafter.

So MJ's ability to win with an underdog roster in 1991 is why they were favored thereafter..

Again, no one thought that crap roster was stacked - no one did, so you guys are just lying because you look back 30 years later and see 6 rings, so you say they were stacked.. But they weren't - they were the least productive and least-scoring cast of all-time.. They needed 41 ppg and goat stats from MJ to win... Magic, Isiah, Miller and all the players and coaches say they were a thin roster and it was all MJ.

Again, both the Suns and Bulls both averaged exactly 106.7 ppg and 113.0 ORTG, so Barkley's cast was FAR more productive than the Bulls... It isn't remotely close - the Bulls needed 41 from MJ, which proves they were a garbage cast that couldn't score.

[SouBeachTalents]

Those Bulls were stacked.

[3ba11]

Those Bulls were stacked.


They were a 1-man team that forced MJ to carry the load in every series.. No one else ever dominated of took over except MJ, and MJ dominated to a greater extent that anyone else in history.

Imagine Shai winning the Finals with Jaylen Williams making zero threes for the entire Finals.. That's what MJ did in 93', when Pippen clogged the lanes with 0% threes... He also had worst-ever efficiency for the 96' and 98' Playoffs.

[Baller234]

and then when you look at the teams they were beating - not nearly as stacked


what was the best team that bulls beat? the jazz? the kareem-less past prime lakers?


competition was very weak back then tbh. bulls won 55-games and went game 7 of the ECF without a minute's contribution from mj.

The bulls went to the eastern semis, not the conference finals.

But thanks for showing us all you're like 25.

[gengiskhan]

No team that is BACKCOURT built will ever be considered "stacked"

Bulls only really had TWO GUARD and POINT/SMALL FORWARD locked with ATGs. Thats it.

Entire Bulls FRONTCOURT was strictly "ok." Horace never developed a jump shot or post-up game.

Bulls ACILLIES HEEL was their weakest of the weak Center positions. they were all slow, journey men, old or just place holders.

[3ba11]

.
.
The only title team to win with only 2 double-figure scorers (1997 Bulls):




https://i.makeagif.com/media/5-20-2025/V0ZQE8.gif



^^^^ Definition of a 1-man team - no one thought this was stacked and it's a blatant lie to say that anyone did - it's a revision of history

[gengiskhan]

The bulls went to the eastern semis, not the conference finals.

But thanks for showing us all you're like 25.

Even if 1994 BULLS went to ECF had they beaten the 1994 NYK, 1994 IND and Reggie would've taken them out in 6 games.

Thats how clutch 1994 Reggie was.

[red1]

The bulls went to the eastern semis, not the conference finals.

But thanks for showing us all you're like 25.

typo


I usually write second round or ecsf



of course you couldnt refute the point

[red1]

The bulls went to the eastern semis, not the conference finals.

But thanks for showing us all you're like 25.

I've been posting since 2009 retard :oldlol:

[3ba11]

Thats how clutch 1994 Reggie was.







Reggie Miller drastically outperformed Pippen against the same playoff opponent 6 of 6 times:
.



R Miller vs. 90' Pistons..... 20.7 on 57%... 17.9 usage
Pippen. vs. 90' Pistons..... 16.6 on 43%... 20.4 usage

R Miller vs 93' Knicks....... 31.5 on 53%... 27.5 usage
Pippen. vs 93' Knicks....... 22.5 on 51%... 28.4 usage

R Miller vs 94' Knicks....... 24.7 on 44%... 30.1 usage
Pippen. vs 94' Knicks....... 21.7 on 41%... 31.7 usage

R Miller vs 95' Magic........ 25.9 on 52%... 26.2 usage
Pippen. vs 95' Magic........ 19.0 on 42%... 23.1 usage

R Miller vs 00' Lakers....... 24.3 on 41%... 25.0 usage
Pippen. vs 00' Lakers....... 15.1 on 43%... 19.5 usage
Pippen. vs 99' Lakers....... 18.3 on 33%... 23.5 usage

R Miller 98' ECF............... 17.4 on 41%... 21.1 usage
Pippen. 98' ECF............... 16.6 on 39%... 26.0 usage



In the 98' Playoffs, Kemp averaged 26 on 48% against the Pacers, compared to 16 on 39% for Pippen... Kemp carried Zydrunas to the playoffs that year, while Lebron missed the playoffs with the all-star version of Zydrunas i 05'.

[gengiskhan]

1993 BULLS UNDERachieved in 1993 reg season.

lost tons of 1-2 pt games. 1993 MJ and Pip were coming off grueling back-2-back RINGS deep seasons and also played 1992 Olympics.

1993 BULLS were easily 62-63 Win team instead settled for 57 Wins.


1994 BULLS OVERachieved. Pip and co played just like they'll played when MJ was there.

Bulls got Kukoc who won 3-4 games on game winner or buzzer beater itself.

1994 BULLS had ZERO expectations to win anything. which helped them play "loose" and "easy" ball with BJ becoming all-star too. along with Horace.

1994 BULLS had 3 All-stars along with versatile closer in Kukoc with 6'6" harper added as, poor stuttering version of MJ.

1994 BULLS should've won only 47-48 games but ended up with 55 Wins.

[3ba11]

.

Magic during the 1993 Finals:

"The Bulls rely on MJ too much, so we would beat them easily... Take me off the Lakers and MJ off the Bulls, and you would see - we would dominate them"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N6og_pOVi2w&t=32s



Isiah during the 1993 Finals:

"When you're talking about this Bulls team, you're really only talking about Michael Jordan... Yeah if you take him off the Bulls and me away from the Pistons, we're much better, but the fact is that we can't remove him - he's always there."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N6og_pOVi2w&t=01m34s[/I]




^^^ so there's Isiah saying that the Pistons had a much better cast, yet MJ still beat them... :confusedshrug:

The Bulls were underdogs in the 1991 preseason and then favored once MJ proved he could win produce a great team and win with this underdog cast.

[SouBeachTalents]

More good Isiah points


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4AAbRz6ZRS0&ab_channel=ESPN

[3ba11]

More good Isiah points


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4AAbRz6ZRS0&ab_channel=ESPN


Isiah said the Bulls were a 1-man team - that's what we're talking about, aka the bulls weren't stacked and no one thought that back then.

So Isiah's comments about Lebron to get revenge on MJ 30 years later are irrelevant to the truth being discussed itt that the Bulls were a1-man team and nowhere near "stacked"

[red1]

More good Isiah points


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4AAbRz6ZRS0&ab_channel=ESPN

used to have MJ as undisputed GOAT but now 3ball knocked him down to 1b status


3ball's posts exposed how stacked the bulls were as a team and how weak their competition was

[3ba11]

.
* Lowest-scoring cast of any title team

* No 3rd scorer and only 1 go-to player

* No rim protection in a big man league

* Contenders had 3x all-stars at 3rd option (Majerle, Nance, Aguirre), or All-NBA (Mashburn, Mason, Schrempf)

* Contenders had dominant "1b" sidekicks that averaged 25 ppg or 20/10 to carry their team to conference finals or Finals (97' Stockton, 92' Terry Porter, 1990 KJ, 93' or 96' Kemp/Payton, 87' X-Man)

* Anyone that won more than 2 Finals needed a teammate to get 25 ppg or FMVP for at least 1 of the Finals, but Pippen is 0/6 in FMVP and peaked at 21 ppg.

* Bulls were preseason underdog in 1991 and MJ won with this underdog roster, so the same roster was favorite thereafter.

* Lebron's teams become preseason favorites after he forms super-teams, while MJ's teams became preseason favorites by winning the title - MJ won when they were underdogs in 91' preseason, so the same roster was favored thereafter.

[SouBeachTalents]

used to have MJ as undisputed GOAT but now 3ball knocked him down to 1b status


3ball's posts exposed how stacked the bulls were as a team and how weak their competition was
I used to have Jordan as GOAT, but after evaluating how stacked his team was, esp for his era, he essentially just has a bunch of Durant rings.

[Axe]

I used to have Jordan as GOAT, but after evaluating how stacked his team was, esp for his era, he essentially just has a bunch of Durant rings.
What do you guys think of pointing out how stacked they are and then at the same time, say that they wouldn't have a shot against the 2017 warriors?

[plowking]

Can someone explain to me why 20/5/5 Ron Harper was allowed to go to the Bulls?

They were so good they essentially didn't even need him to play to this capacity.

So MJ basically had a Dwayne Wade level player as his 4th/5th option. Have we seen this level of stacked before?

[gengiskhan]

Can someone explain to me why 20/5/5 Ron Harper was allowed to go to the Bulls?

They were so good they essentially didn't even need him to play to this capacity.

So MJ basically had a Dwayne Wade level player as his 4th/5th option. Have we seen this level of stacked before?

Because 20/5/5 Ron Harper became 10/2/2 Ron Harper after knee injuries and ankle injuries.

Because he became a Journey men post injuries and was never the same player. He was a solid defender, good place holder who perfectly can fit within the "triangle offense" system who dont look to shot jock or ball hog ala DeadBe.

He was a perfect sub for 6'6" GOAT who was aging fast. and can play in tandum with both on court.

[Nowoco]

In 1998 only, perhaps. But at that point pretty much every roster was "thin". Expansion taking its toll, ya know?

Absolute bullshit. A myth perpetuated by idiots.

[Nowoco]

Bulls ACILLIES HEEL was their weakest of the weak Center positions. they were all slow, journey men, old or just place holders.

Look at all the starting centers on championship teams before and after the Bulls dynasty. Stop me when you see a trend.

1977 - Bill Walton
1978 - Wes Unseld
1979 - Jack Sikma
1980, 82, 85, 87, 88 - Kareem
1981, 84, 86 - Robert Parish
1983 - Moses Malone
1989, 90 - Bill Laimbeer
1999, 03 - David Robinson
2000, 01, 02 - Shaq

So basically every team had an ATG center. The exceptions being Sikma and Laimbeer who were both excellent players on deep, hard working teams.

So in an era where you had to have a great big man to win, Jordan won with Bill Cartwright and Luc Longley. Stacked team my ass.

[gengiskhan]

Look at all the starting centers on championship teams before and after the Bulls dynasty. Stop me when you see a trend.

1977 - Bill Walton
1978 - Wes Unseld
1979 - Jack Sikma
1980, 82, 85, 87, 88 - Kareem
1981, 84, 86 - Robert Parish
1983 - Moses Malone
1989, 90 - Bill Laimbeer
1999, 03 - David Robinson
2000, 01, 02 - Shaq

So basically every team had an ATG center. The exceptions being Sikma and Laimbeer who were both excellent players on deep, hard working teams.

So in an era where you had to have a great big man to win, Jordan won with Bill Cartwright and Luc Longley. Stacked team my ass.

Bull's Dynasty centers were literally a LIABILITY.

Cartwright cannot even stand up straight with those knocked knees. cannot attack the rim. cannot rebound. they needed horace rebounding so bad. Bill was literally a paint occupier. thats about it. slow, poor jump shot. always falling down. also very slow and old.

Longley played in slow motion. can barely move that 300 lb body. Can barely play defense. Can barely rebound. can barely block shot. always getting mouthful from MJ and Pippen.

and the funny thing is, BULLS went out and got 43 YO CHIEF. lol.

[Overdrive]

Pippen was horrific vs Ewing, so the Bulls produced a tight series in spite of Pippen and due to other factors like 3-peat chemistry... But their chemistry needed a training camp and regular season when MJ returned in 95' - that's the only reason they lost to the Magic (and then beat them 2014 Spurs-style in 96')

The only thing that 95 compared to 94 showed is that Horace Grant had more impact than Jordan. Once they got another defensive PF they were back on track.

[tpols]

The myth of MJ is slowly being unraveled. Turns out he was a fake tough guy. A loud mouthed, bald headed b!tch that Phil, Scottie, Horace, Dennis, Toni and many others had to carry while he kicked and screamed for all the glory himself.

[SouBeachTalents]

The myth of MJ is slowly being unraveled. Turns out he was a fake tough guy. A loud mouthed, bald headed b!tch that Phil, Scottie, Horace, Dennis, Toni and many others had to carry while he kicked and screamed for all the glory himself.
Don't forget a degenerate gambler and terrible baseball player

[Hey Yo]

Look at all the starting centers on championship teams before and after the Bulls dynasty. Stop me when you see a trend.

1977 - Bill Walton
1978 - Wes Unseld
1979 - Jack Sikma
1980, 82, 85, 87, 88 - Kareem
1981, 84, 86 - Robert Parish
1983 - Moses Malone
1989, 90 - Bill Laimbeer
1999, 03 - David Robinson
2000, 01, 02 - Shaq

So basically every team had an ATG center. The exceptions being Sikma and Laimbeer who were both excellent players on deep, hard working teams.

So in an era where you had to have a great big man to win, Jordan won with Bill Cartwright and Luc Longley. Stacked team my ass.

edit....misread the post

[SouBeachTalents]

Look at all the starting centers on championship teams before and after the Bulls dynasty. Stop me when you see a trend.

1977 - Bill Walton
1978 - Wes Unseld
1979 - Jack Sikma
1980, 82, 85, 87, 88 - Kareem
1981, 84, 86 - Robert Parish
1983 - Moses Malone
1989, 90 - Bill Laimbeer
1999, 03 - David Robinson
2000, 01, 02 - Shaq

So basically every team had an ATG center. The exceptions being Sikma and Laimbeer who were both excellent players on deep, hard working teams.

So in an era where you had to have a great big man to win, Jordan won with Bill Cartwright and Luc Longley. Stacked team my ass.
I'm not trying to argue semantics, but you cannot lump in Parish, '78 Unseld, late 80's Kareem & past prime Robinson with the likes of peak Walton, Moses & Shaq and pretend they were performing at an "ATG" level due to the name on the back of the jersey. Their actual performance frankly doesn't come close to warranting that label.

[3ba11]

I'm not trying to argue semantics, but you cannot lump in Parish, '78 Unseld, late 80's Kareem & past prime Robinson with the likes of peak Walton, Moses & Shaq and pretend they were performing at an "ATG" level due to the name on the back of the jersey. Their actual performance frankly doesn't come close to warranting that label.


It was a big man era, and the Bulls faced massive deficits every night at the center and PF positions - Longley, Cartwright, Horace and old Rodman were nothing compared to what they faced... The numbers in every Finals and conference finals tell the story - the Bulls were annihilated at the center and PF spots... They made this up with MJ's massive advantage over the opposing 1st option in every series.. This is a statistical fact - only MJ had meaningful advantages in scoring, efficiency, and clutch over his matchup.

A couple other important points itt - Lebron became a preseason favorite by forming a super-team in 2011, while MJ became a preseason favorite by winning the title first, and then he was preseason favorite thereafter (92' onwards).

Secondly, Lebron fans can't complain about being Finals underdog when Lebron fails to win 60 games with the preseason favorite from 2011-2016.. Let that sink in - his teams had the best talent (preseason favorite), but fell to underdog due to bad chemistry and brand of ball (bad basketball)... 2 + 2 = 4.

Finally, oddsmakers hated Lebron because he lost as the favorite for 3 straight years (09-11'), so they made his veteran super-team an underdog to baby Westbrick in 2012... So Lebron was a serial choker and bed-wetter when he choked in 2011 and people wondered if he would ever win... Otoh, Kobe was a 5x champion and the goat in many people's minds when he was swept in 2011 as an older player... Unlike Lebron, no one wondered whether Kobe would ever win because Kobe was a reputed assassin that destroyed the Spurs at 22-years old (33 on 53%), while Lebron choked against the Spurs (22 on 35% and 6 TO's).. Lebron choked so much that people thought he would never win... And he wouldn't have without the "decision" to team up with the #2 producer in the league and a 3rd option that was better than Pau.

[SouBeachTalents]

It was a big man era, and the Bulls faced massive deficits every night at the center and PF positions - Longley, Cartwright, Horace and old Rodman were nothing compared to what they faced... The numbers in every Finals and conference finals tell the story - the Bulls were annihilated at the center and PF spots... They made this up with MJ's massive advantage over the opposing 1st option in every series.. This is a statistical fact - only MJ had meaningful advantages in scoring, efficiency, and clutch over his matchup.

A couple other important points itt - Lebron became a preseason favorite by forming a super-team in 2011, while MJ became a preseason favorite by winning the title first, and then he was preseason favorite thereafter (92' onwards).

Secondly, Lebron fans can't complain about being Finals underdog when Lebron fails to win 60 games with the preseason favorite from 2011-2016.. Let that sink in - his teams had the best talent (preseason favorite), but fell to underdog due to bad chemistry and brand of ball (bad basketball)... 2 + 2 = 4.

Finally, oddsmakers hated Lebron because he lost as the favorite for 3 straight years (09-11'), so they made his veteran super-team an underdog to baby Westbrick in 2012... So Lebron was a serial choker and bed-wetter when he choked in 2011 and people wondered if he would ever win... Otoh, Kobe was a 5x champion and the goat in many people's minds when he was swept in 2011 as an older player... Unlike Lebron, no one wondered whether Kobe would ever win because Kobe was a reputed assassin that destroyed the Spurs at 22-years old (33 on 53%), while Lebron choked against the Spurs (22 on 35% and 6 TO's).. Lebron choked so much that people thought he would never win... And he wouldn't have without the "decision" to team up with the #2 producer in the league and a 3rd option that was better than Pau.
1-9

[Duffy Pratt]

It was a big man era, and the Bulls faced massive deficits every night at the center and PF positions - Longley, Cartwright, Horace and old Rodman were nothing compared to what they faced... The numbers in every Finals and conference finals tell the story - the Bulls were annihilated at the center and PF spots... They made this up with MJ's massive advantage over the opposing 1st option in every series.. This is a statistical fact - only MJ had meaningful advantages in scoring, efficiency, and clutch over his matchup.

A couple other important points itt - Lebron became a preseason favorite by forming a super-team in 2011, while MJ became a preseason favorite by winning the title first, and then he was preseason favorite thereafter (92' onwards).

Secondly, Lebron fans can't complain about being Finals underdog when Lebron fails to win 60 games with the preseason favorite from 2011-2016.. Let that sink in - his teams had the best talent (preseason favorite), but fell to underdog due to bad chemistry and brand of ball (bad basketball)... 2 + 2 = 4.

Finally, oddsmakers hated Lebron because he lost as the favorite for 3 straight years (09-11'), so they made his veteran super-team an underdog to baby Westbrick in 2012... So Lebron was a serial choker and bed-wetter when he choked in 2011 and people wondered if he would ever win... Otoh, Kobe was a 5x champion and the goat in many people's minds when he was swept in 2011 as an older player... Unlike Lebron, no one wondered whether Kobe would ever win because Kobe was a reputed assassin that destroyed the Spurs at 22-years old (33 on 53%), while Lebron choked against the Spurs (22 on 35% and 6 TO's).. Lebron choked so much that people thought he would never win... And he wouldn't have without the "decision" to team up with the #2 producer in the league and a 3rd option that was better than Pau.



When Jordan left, they still suffered under a relative weakness at power forward and center. And they lost the best player in the world without any compensation. But they won 55 games. On your estimation, without Jordan the Bullsshould have been truly terrible. They still took the Knicks to 7 games, and they had a regular season that was way better than expected.

BTW, who was the Jazz’s great center at the time? Or Portland’s? The only all time great center the Bulls faced in the playoffs was Ewing. And yes, truly great centers caused the Bulls problems. He had a losing record against Hakeem, and a .500 record against Robinson. But they played in the East, faced only Ewing,

[red1]

I used to have Jordan as GOAT, but after evaluating how stacked his team was, esp for his era, he essentially just has a bunch of Durant rings.

I would agree except kd is mentally weak and jordan is mentally an iron man


and physically an iron man too. I'm not a hater I can admit that mj was a different breed he just isnt the undisputed GOAT.


you give shaq a stacked squad like the bulls with that competition and he's clearing 6 rings easy. shaq actually played the spurs aka had a true rival.

[Nowoco]

When Jordan left, they still suffered under a relative weakness at power forward and center. And they lost the best player in the world without any compensation. But they won 55 games.

I love how Jordan haters always mention the 55 game season after he left like it's the ultimate gotcha moment.

That same season, the #1 seed were the Atlanta Hawks, who traded their top scorer halfway through the season, still won 57 games yet needed 5 games to beat the 8th seed and were bounced in the ESF.

RS records mean jack shit.

[3ba11]

I would agree except kd is mentally weak and jordan is mentally an iron man


and physically an iron man too. I'm not a hater I can admit that mj was a different breed he just isnt the undisputed GOAT.


you give shaq a stacked squad like the bulls with that competition and he's clearing 6 rings easy. shaq actually played the spurs aka had a true rival.


Shaq was swept 3 straight years with rich man' Pippen from 94' to 96'... He also had 2 other 20 ppg scorers with Nick Anderson and Dennis Scott, who were both snipers as well.. Then his 4 all-star Lakers were swept by the Jazz in 1998.. So no

[3ba11]

.
Starks used to dominate Hakeem:

https://i.makeagif.com/media/5-21-2025/2Y_xkq.gif


So did Jordan (next post):

[tpols]

I think thats kind of the point.

A literal grocery bagger from ShopRite was able to thrive back then and poster superstars. Bum era. So relative to the competition Bulls were king.

[3ba11]

.
.
MJ has a bunch of tip dunks on Hakeem:




https://i.makeagif.com/media/4-03-2025/F0bWCV.gif

https://i.makeagif.com/media/8-06-2015/EmAP5I.gif

https://i.makeagif.com/media/8-06-2015/g8uSQm.gif
https://i.makeagif.com/media/8-06-2015/IfDyl7.gif.

[SouBeachTalents]

Hakeem had the two most impressive title runs of the 90's

[red1]

Shaq was swept 3 straight years with rich man' Pippen from 94' to 96'... He also had 2 other 20 ppg scorers with Nick Anderson and Dennis Scott, who were both snipers as well.. Then his 4 all-star Lakers were swept by the Jazz in 1998.. So no

never compare kobe to pippen


if kobe was in the same league as jordan he'd have an actual rival



edit my bad you meant penny didnt see the years

[Nowoco]

Hakeem had the two most impressive title runs of the 90's

Not when the world’s best player is practising his baseball swing it isn’t. Same reason the 70s title don’t count when half of the best players in the world are in another league.

[3ba11]

.
.
Hakeem was scared to jump with MJ and visibly COWERED every time:




https://i.makeagif.com/media/8-06-2015/FoDgh7.gif

https://i.makeagif.com/media/1-14-2022/j4_bnN.gif

https://i.makeagif.com/media/4-03-2025/wbLkPB.gif

https://i.makeagif.com/media/3-04-2019/AKMw7q.gif




https://i.makeagif.com/media/5-24-2020/TZ-v5K.gif





When Jordan left, they still suffered under a relative weakness at power forward and center. And they lost the best player in the world without any compensation. But they won 55 games. On your estimation, without Jordan the Bullsshould have been truly terrible. They still took the Knicks to 7 games, and they had a regular season that was way better than expected.

BTW, who was the Jazz’s great center at the time? Or Portland’s? The only all time great center the Bulls faced in the playoffs was Ewing. And yes, truly great centers caused the Bulls problems. He had a losing record against Hakeem, and a .500 record against Robinson. But they played in the East, faced only Ewing,


MJ beat Alonzo twice and swept Shaq once, while also beating Ewing 4 times despite Pippen averaging 16 on 40% for 3 of the 4 times (89', 92', 96').. So MJ had no problem with great bigs.

Furthermore, both Vlade Divac and Sam Perkins averaged 17/9 and destroyed Horace/Cartwright in the 91' Finals, while Jerome Kersey destroyed Horace in the 92' Finals, and Barkley/Dumas destroyed him in 93'... Or Ewing/Oakley/Mason/X-Man destroy Horace from 89-93'.. Btw, the Blazers were stacked with perennial all-star and all-defender Buck Williams being a better player than Horace, along with 2x all-star Duckworth was at least equal.. Cliff Robinson outplayed Horace in the 92' Finals too.

And again, the Bulls were barely .500 in 1995, so the 94' regular season was nothing more than an okay record against sleeping opponents, but easily exposed in the playoffs and following season.. People forget that MJ's retirement came right before the season started and shocked everyone, so every opponent had family members call and cancel their trip to see them play - the biggest game of their careers and facing the Babe Ruth or "Ali" of basketball became the biggest letdown game of all-time... This is why no one cared about the Bulls in 1994.. Once the honey moon period was over and opponents woke up, the Bulls were 2nd Round losers and borderline .500 in 1995... Pippen cratered a 3-peat dynasty to barely .500 in less than 18 months.

[Duffy Pratt]

I love how Jordan haters always mention the 55 game season after he left like it's the ultimate gotcha moment.

That same season, the #1 seed were the Atlanta Hawks, who traded their top scorer halfway through the season, still won 57 games yet needed 5 games to beat the 8th seed and were bounced in the ESF.

RS records mean jack shit.

I defy you to point to a single post that shows I’m a Jordan hater. To be clear, I didn’t like Jordan at the time, but in much the same way I hated West, Havlicek, Magic, etc…. It was because he was so great that I disliked him so much, though I came to respect him more when he started buying into a team concept.

As for the regular season, it’s certainly not the only yardstick, but it’s far from meaningless. When Jordan was a rookie, the Bulls did better in the regular season. Next year, he got hurt, and they dropped 8 games (even worse when you look at the partial season), the next year with him back, they did even better. That’s at least some indication of Jordan’s positive impact on a truly bad squad. Then, when he retires the first time, the Bulls only drop 2 games. I’ve showed above many other examples of when a team loses their star suddenly, and they drop many more games than that. Makes it pretty clear to me that the supporting cast and system were better than you all are giving it credit for being.


I just don’t understand why you all have to deny that he played on a team, that the team was very good, and that it was built around him brilliantly to have complementary pieces. Instead, people continuously argue that everyone he played with was totally worthless when it was obviously not true to anyone at the time.

[red1]

I defy you to point to a single post that shows I’m a Jordan hater. To be clear, I didn’t like Jordan at the time, but in much the same way I hated West, Havlicek, Magic, etc…. It was because he was so great that I disliked him so much, though I came to respect him more when he started buying into a team concept.

As for the regular season, it’s certainly not the only yardstick, but it’s far from meaningless. When Jordan was a rookie, the Bulls did better in the regular season. Next year, he got hurt, and they dropped 8 games (even worse when you look at the partial season), the next year with him back, they did even better. That’s at least some indication of Jordan’s positive impact on a truly bad squad. Then, when he retires the first time, the Bulls only drop 2 games. I’ve showed above many other examples of when a team loses their star suddenly, and they drop many more games than that. Makes it pretty clear to me that the supporting cast and system were better than you all are giving it credit for being.


I just don’t understand why you all have to deny that he played on a team, that the team was very good, and that it was built around him brilliantly to have complementary pieces. Instead, people continuously argue that everyone he played with was totally worthless when it was obviously not true to anyone at the time.

dude everyone knows the bulls were an elite squad without jordan

everything proves it

you're being too considerate, just call it how it is



the bulls supporting roster alone was good enough to challenge the contenders of that era




without jordan

[3ba11]

dude everyone knows the bulls were an elite squad without jordan

everything proves it

you're being too considerate, just call it how it is



the bulls supporting roster alone was good enough to challenge the contenders of that era




without jordan


The 94' Bulls were the only team in the league that lacked a 2nd scorer in the starting lineup, but they survived this lack of talent because they were a fully-developed 3-peat dynasty that possessed 3-peat chemistry and know-how... Accordingly, the 55 wins = 3-peat chemistry against sleeping opponents, not a stacked cast.

Once the honeymoon was over and opponents woke up, the Bulls were exposed as 2nd Round losers and barely .500 in 95'... Pippen was never a franchise player that built a team from scratch... He was simply handed the goat dynasty, which he cratered to barely .500 in less than 18 months..

Any decent scorer would supplant Pippen as 1st option, so building around Pippen would restrict a team's capacity to add talent.. This is why secondary producers like Pippen, Klay, or Middleton aren't franchise players.

[ArbitraryWater]

What teams were considered stacked in the 90s, OP?

[Baller234]

Then, when he retires the first time, the Bulls only drop 2 games. I’ve showed above many other examples of when a team loses their star suddenly, and they drop many more games than that. Makes it pretty clear to me that the supporting cast and system were better than you all are giving it credit for being.

Comparing the 93-94 season to the 92-93 season is a selective comparison though and avoids the bigger picture. The Bulls only won 57 games in 92-93 because MJ and Pip were coming off the summer olympics and they were repeat champs having nothing left to prove. Phil Jackson is on record as saying it was tough to keep the team motivated that season and that they were coasting to the playoffs.

In 91-92 they won 67 games with virtually the same roster. That's the real measuring stick for what that team was capable of at full power.

[3ba11]

What teams were considered stacked in the 90s, OP?


91' Warriors

94' Warriors

92' Blazers

91' Pistons

93' Suns

96' Sonics (3 All-NBA players in 95')

96' Magic

95' Rockets

97' Heat

97' Bullets


the only main contender that is like the Bulls by living off chemistry is the Jazz... btw, it's easy to forget that the Bad Boy Pistons had 3x all-stars at every starting spot

[Hey Yo]

I would agree except kd is mentally weak and jordan is mentally an iron man


and physically an iron man too. I'm not a hater I can admit that mj was a different breed he just isnt the undisputed GOAT.


you give shaq a stacked squad like the bulls with that competition and he's clearing 6 rings easy. shaq actually played the spurs aka had a true rival.

Jordan was a mental midget. He said himself that was the reason he quit the league due to being mentally and physically spent.

[3ba11]

.
.
3x all-stars at 3rd option



Pistons - Aguirre
Suns - Majerle
Cavs - Nance



All-NBA at 3rd option:



Sonics - Schrempf
Heat - Mashburn
Hornets - Mason



"1b" at 2nd option that carried team to Finals or WCF:



1987 WCF Worthy................... 31 on 62%

1987 WCF X-Man.................... 25 on 47% (also outplayed Pippen in 92' 2nd Round)

1990 WCSF Kevin Johnson....... 22 and 11 apg (upset Magic's 1-seeded Lakers)

1992 WCF Porter..................... 26 and 8 APG (53% threes on 6 attempts)

1996 WCF Kemp..................... 20/10 on 69% (destroyed Malone)

1997 WCF Stockton................. 22 and 11 APG (series walk-off in Barkley's face)



Pippen wasn't a double-double guy like Stockton or a 20/10 guy like Kemp, KJ, Alonzo, Tim Hardaway, Payton, Larry Johnson and other 90's sidekicks or 1b's.. He couldn't dominate and take a team to the Finals or major victory like Porter, Stockton, KJ, and other 90's stars.. Btw, Kemp was 2nd-leading scorer when he destroyed Malone in the WCF to make the 96' Finals..

Also, the Knicks had Anthony Mason, Oakley and Charles Smith, who are equal or better than Horace Grant, while having X-Man outplay Pippen and Starks average the same 19 and 5 APG with all-defense that Pippen did (except WITH spacing and clutch).. They also had an all-time floor general in Mark Jackson, so the Knicks had a far superior roster than the Bulls.

[Duffy Pratt]

.
.
3x all-stars at 3rd option



Pistons - Aguirre
Suns - Majerle
Cavs - Nance



All-NBA at 3rd option:



Sonics - Schrempf
Heat - Mashburn
Hornets - Mason



"1b" at 2nd option that carried team to Finals or WCF:



1987 WCF Worthy................... 31 on 62%

1987 WCF X-Man.................... 25 on 47% (also outplayed Pippen in 92' 2nd Round)

1990 WCSF Kevin Johnson....... 22 and 11 apg (upset Magic's 1-seeded Lakers)

1992 WCF Porter..................... 26 and 8 APG (53% threes on 6 attempts)

1996 WCF Kemp..................... 20/10 on 69% (destroyed Malone)

1997 WCF Stockton................. 22 and 11 APG (series walk-off in Barkley's face)



Pippen wasn't a double-double guy like Stockton or a 20/10 guy like Kemp, KJ, Alonzo, Tim Hardaway, Payton, Larry Johnson and other 90's sidekicks or 1b's.. He couldn't dominate and take a team to the Finals or major victory like Porter, Stockton, KJ, and other 90's stars.. Btw, Kemp was 2nd-leading scorer when he destroyed Malone in the WCF to make the 96' Finals..

Also, the Knicks had Anthony Mason, Oakley and Charles Smith, who are equal or better than Horace Grant, while having X-Man outplay Pippen and Starks average the same 19 and 5 APG with all-defense that Pippen did (except WITH spacing and clutch).. They also had an all-time floor general in Mark Jackson, so the Knicks had a far superior roster than the Bulls.

But somehow having three guys who are first team all defense doesn’t count…

[Duffy Pratt]

Comparing the 93-94 season to the 92-93 season is a selective comparison though and avoids the bigger picture. The Bulls only won 57 games in 92-93 because MJ and Pip were coming off the summer olympics and they were repeat champs having nothing left to prove. Phil Jackson is on record as saying it was tough to keep the team motivated that season and that they were coasting to the playoffs.

In 91-92 they won 67 games with virtually the same roster. That's the real measuring stick for what that team was capable of at full power.

Please stop trotting out the dream team Olympics. A regular scrimmage run off season by Magic at UCLA was more arduous than anything the Dream Team faced (except perhaps in their own practices).

[ArbitraryWater]

91' Warriors

94' Warriors

92' Blazers

91' Pistons

93' Suns

96' Sonics (3 All-NBA players in 95')

96' Magic

95' Rockets

97' Heat

97' Bullets


the only main contender that is like the Bulls by living off chemistry is the Jazz... btw, it's easy to forget that the Bad Boy Pistons had 3x all-stars at every starting spot


Who considered these teams stacked and what made those teams more stacked than the Bulls?

[3ba11]

But somehow having three guys who are first team all defense doesn’t count…


The best players on a team must be good scorers - they don't have to be good defenders.

No amount of defense would stop AD from getting demoted and downgraded historically if he averaged 19.0 on 42% a Finals like Pippen did for 6 Finals (Finals career).

Scoring is the "star" category, so the inability to carry the "star" category forces the GM's to find more stars and prevents them from getting defensive help.. Let that sink in...

Again, the ability to carry the star category of scoring (Curry, MJ, Kobe) allows GM's to find more defensive help... Otoh, some guys are really ball-dominant at high scoring levels, so they can't carry the scoring load vs top teams (Lebron), so the GM must star help and can't sign good defenders.

[Hey Yo]

Rodman got multiple FMVP votes in 96 for avg. 7ppg.

Who else has had a 5th option getting FMVP votes?

[3ba11]

Rodman got multiple FMVP votes in 96 for avg. 7ppg.

Who else has had a 5th option getting FMVP votes?


Kemp got more FMVP votes and that was Rodman's assignment... So right there we see the folly of relying on a few dozen journalism majors to tell us about sports... That's why media awards like FMVP, MVP, and All-NBA mean nothing and you'll never hear me use them to make the case for Jordan... The only exception is when I point out that Jordan's MVP quality is the highest because all his MVP's have titles, scoring title and 1st team all defense - this is unprecedented and MJ did it 4 times - his only MVP that lacks a title has DPOY - so his MVP caliber is unprecedented.. by comparison, half of lebron's MVP's lack titles and they all lack scoring titles and DPOY, aka shyte mvp's

[Hey Yo]

Every James FMVP was unanimous. ZERO chance that his last option on offense in the starting lineup would take votes away from him.

Only Jordan had a 5th option getting FMVP votes.

[3ba11]

Every James FMVP was unanimous. ZERO chance that his last option on offense in the starting lineup would take votes away from him.

Only Jordan had a 5th option getting FMVP votes.


Half of Lebron's MVP's lack titles, and they all lack scoring title or DPOY

And Lebron's MVP frequency is HALF of Jordan's - 4/20 (20%) vs 6/15 (40%)

:confusedshrug:.. looks like you fell for the fugazi... not a real diamond like mj.. Jordan is the only guy with MVP/FMVP/scoring title/1st team defense, and he did it 4 times

[Duffy Pratt]

The best players on a team must be good scorers - they don't have to be good defenders.

No amount of defense would stop AD from getting demoted and downgraded historically if he averaged 19.0 on 42% a Finals like Pippen did for 6 Finals (Finals career).

Scoring is the "star" category, so the inability to carry the "star" category forces the GM's to find more stars and prevents them from getting defensive help.. Let that sink in...

Again, the ability to carry the star category of scoring (Curry, MJ, Kobe) allows GM's to find more defensive help... Otoh, some guys are really ball-dominant at high scoring levels, so they can't carry the scoring load vs top teams (Lebron), so the GM must star help and can't sign good defenders.

Five teams in history have had 3 first team all defense:

70 Knicks
76 Celtics
78 Blazers
83 Sixers and
96 Bulls

And guess what? All of them won the championship, except Portland, who probably would have repeated if Walton hadn’t gotten injured. But like I said, that doesn’t count, right…. Oh, and all of these teams were stacked.

On top of that, the 96 Bulls had 6th man of the year, and another guy who came in 7th for 6MOY, shooting just over 50% from three. But yeah, they sucked…

[Duffy Pratt]

Every James FMVP was unanimous. ZERO chance that his last option on offense in the starting lineup would take votes away from him.

Only Jordan had a 5th option getting FMVP votes.

Andre Igoudala would like a word with you.

And then you can chat with Wes Unseld.

[Nowoco]

On top of that, the 96 Bulls had 6th man of the year, and another guy who came in 7th for 6MOY, shooting just over 50% from three. But yeah, they sucked…

9th. Yeah on that. Magic Johnson got 9 votes for 6MOY despite playing just 32 games. Jordan finished 11th in MVP voting in 95 after playing 17 games.

Only a fool uses award voting to make a point.

[Hey Yo]

Andre Igoudala would like a word with you.

And then you can chat with Wes Unseld.

Iggy wasn't a starter in 2015 until game 4.

[Hey Yo]

Dbl post

[gengiskhan]

Don't forget a degenerate gambler and terrible baseball player

Much Much better than snitching on Shaq Daddy that bred him and "gifted" little beany trash 3 rings.

he still went on to become a serial rapist desspite all the 3 championship rings gifts.

Almighty himself had to intervene and save his daughter's young girlfriends from becoming a prey in the name of mamba academy.

this is much much worst than gambling and being terrible at baseball.

[gengiskhan]

Half of Lebron's MVP's lack titles, and they all lack scoring title or DPOY

And Lebron's MVP frequency is HALF of Jordan's - 4/20 (20%) vs 6/15 (40%)

:confusedshrug:.. looks like you fell for the fugazi... not a real diamond like mj.. Jordan is the only guy with MVP/FMVP/scoring title/1st team defense, and he did it 4 times

LeColluder collected Season MVPs in the very weak East Conf. running up 60 wins season after season. it was a cake walk.

he still colluded in the east conf for super team to collect 2 more season MVPs

LeColluder is nothng if he doesnt stack the deck for himself. He still lost 2011 finals. still lost 2014 finals. and had to be bailed out of 2013 finals thanks to Ray Allen 3.

[red1]

The 94' Bulls were the only team in the league that lacked a 2nd scorer in the starting lineup, but they survived this lack of talent because they were a fully-developed 3-peat dynasty that possessed 3-peat chemistry and know-how... Accordingly, the 55 wins = 3-peat chemistry against sleeping opponents, not a stacked cast.

Once the honeymoon was over and opponents woke up, the Bulls were exposed as 2nd Round losers and barely .500 in 95'... Pippen was never a franchise player that built a team from scratch... He was simply handed the goat dynasty, which he cratered to barely .500 in less than 18 months..

Any decent scorer would supplant Pippen as 1st option, so building around Pippen would restrict a team's capacity to add talent.. This is why secondary producers like Pippen, Klay, or Middleton aren't franchise players.

you are insane


truly insane

[Axe]

you are insane


truly insane
http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/image.php?u=827668&dateline=1624237688&type=thumb (https://i.ibb.co/qFwzgHS/IMG-20221027-192759.jpg)

[Duffy Pratt]

9th. Yeah on that. Magic Johnson got 9 votes for 6MOY despite playing just 32 games. Jordan finished 11th in MVP voting in 95 after playing 17 games.

Only a fool uses award voting to make a point.

Ok, so regular season record doesn’t matter. Awards voting doesn’t matter. I suppose Kerr shooting 50% from three for the season doesn’t matter. Nor Rodman leading the league in rebounding. This thread is about whether anyone at the time thought they were stacked. The fact that they had two guys getting votes for 6MOY is relevant. That they had three guys make first team all defense, and all three got mvp votes. You might argue that they sucked, but it’s pretty clear that some people thought they were stacked (and they were right).

[3ba11]

Five teams in history have had 3 first team all defense:

70 Knicks
76 Celtics
78 Blazers
83 Sixers and
96 Bulls

And guess what? All of them won the championship, except Portland, who probably would have repeated if Walton hadn’t gotten injured. But like I said, that doesn’t count, right…. Oh, and all of these teams were stacked.

On top of that, the 96 Bulls had 6th man of the year, and another guy who came in 7th for 6MOY, shooting just over 50% from three. But yeah, they sucked…


All those teams had ridiculous scoring help and far more scoring help than MJ..

So you made my point... MJ is the only guy that won multiple chips with weak scoring help - his 6 title runs had the lowest scoring casts of all-time

1970 Knicks had a starting lineup of 5 HOF that all averaged more career ppg than Pippen... Ditto the 76' Celtics and the 83' Sixers super-team.

So you made my point - everyone had great scoring help except MJ's 6 titles and a few one-offs (94' Hakeem, 03' Duncan, 06' Wade, 11' Dirk).

[3ba11]

The fact that they had two guys getting votes for 6MOY is relevant.







^^^ Means literally nothing... This isn't an indication of being stacked.. What an amazing reach by you and it makes the point clearly - you can't identify sufficient star help, so you claim that 7 ppg players are amazing and no one else has them...







the BadThat they had three guys make first team all defense,






Means nothing because the other teams that had this were stacked OFFENSIVELY (70' Knicks, 76' Celtics, 83' Sixers) - these teams were stacked to the brim offensively, while MJ was forced to win with trash offensive help by comparison.

And Rodman wasn't all-defense in 97' or 98', so MJ won 5 chips without it.

Your arguments simply aren't viable







some people thought they were stacked




Virtually no one did, and having a couple 9 ppg guys get votes for 6MOY doesn't change that, and it's probably the worst argument I've ever seen...

[3ba11]

.

Defensive Ranking

91' Pistons......... 4th
91' Lakers.......... 5th
91' Bulls............. 7th

92' Knicks......... 1st
92' Blazers........ 2nd
92' Bulls............ 4th

93' Knicks......... 1st
93' Suns ........... 9th
93' Bulls............ 7th



Thread Cliffs

During the 1st three-peat, the Bulls had lower defensive ranking than 5 of 6 Finals and ECF opponents, while having less scoring help than the majority of teams in the league..

This lack of scoring help produced the lowest-scoring casts of any title team and required MJ to produce goat production rates despite facing max defensive attention (carrying scoring load).

[97 bulls]

.

Defensive Ranking

91' Pistons......... 4th
91' Lakers.......... 5th
91' Bulls............. 7th

92' Knicks......... 1st
92' Blazers........ 2nd
92' Bulls............ 4th

93' Knicks......... 1st
93' Suns ........... 9th
93' Bulls............ 7th



Thread Cliffs

During the 1st three-peat, the Bulls had lower defensive ranking than 5 of 6 Finals and ECF opponents, while having less scoring help than the majority of teams in the league..

This lack of scoring help produced the lowest-scoring casts of any title team and required MJ to produce goat production rates despite facing max defensive attention (carrying scoring load).

All you're doing is cherrypicking stats. Which can be done for any team.

[Baller234]

Please stop trotting out the dream team Olympics. A regular scrimmage run off season by Magic at UCLA was more arduous than anything the Dream Team faced (except perhaps in their own practices).

Dude stop. Even if you wanna play that game, it's still irrelevant.

This narrative that the Bulls went from a 57 win team to a 55 win team without Jordan doesn't tell the whole story. That same core roster won 67 games the year before. Chalk it up to whatever you want. Phil said it himself that the team didn't have the same energy going into the following season. Not surprised the repeat champions didn't feel the need to go full throttle until the playoffs.

So in reality they went from winning 67 at their peak with Jordan to winning 55 without Jordan. To be fair none of this really matters because Pippen's sample size as the leader of the team was so small and only spanned 1.5 seasons, but let's be honest here the ceiling for the team was MUCH higher with Jordan.

[Duffy Pratt]

Dude stop. Even if you wanna play that game, it's still irrelevant.

This narrative that the Bulls went from a 57 win team to a 55 win team without Jordan doesn't tell the whole story. That same core roster won 67 games the year before. Chalk it up to whatever you want. Phil said it himself that the team didn't have the same energy going into the following season. Not surprised the repeat champions didn't feel the need to go full throttle until the playoffs.

So in reality they went from winning 67 at their peak with Jordan to winning 55 without Jordan. To be fair none of this really matters because Pippen's sample size as the leader of the team was so small and only spanned 1.5 seasons, but let's be honest here the ceiling for the team was MUCH higher with Jordan.

I agree that it doesn’t tell the whole story, and I agree that they were a much better team with Jordan.

But I don’t think they were a 67 win team after having won a 3-peat. Their third season in both 3-peats was 10 games off their peak. Repeated championships take a severe toll, not just on the star, but on the entire core of a team. That makes their winning 55 in the fourth year without Jordan even more remarkable. They were a solid team, but now beatable, without him. With Jordan, they were stacked.

[Baller234]

I agree that it doesn’t tell the whole story, and I agree that they were a much better team with Jordan.

But I don’t think they were a 67 win team after having won a 3-peat. Their third season in both 3-peats was 10 games off their peak. Repeated championships take a severe toll, not just on the star, but on the entire core of a team. That makes their winning 55 in the fourth year without Jordan even more remarkable. They were a solid team, but now beatable, without him. With Jordan, they were stacked.

Everyone knows the Bulls were on a mission that year to prove they could win without Jordan. Plus Pippen had a full summer's rest this time.

I'm just trying to expose the flaws in this 57 to 55 argument. It doesn't hold. The Bulls with Jordan at the helm were capable of winning 67 games and going all the way.

[97 bulls]

Everyone knows the Bulls were on a mission that year to prove they could win without Jordan. Plus Pippen had a full summer's rest this time.

I'm just trying to expose the flaws in this 57 to 55 argument. It doesn't hold. The Bulls with Jordan at the helm were capable of winning 67 games and going all the way.

The bottome line is that the Bulls were a championship team with Jordan. But at best a very good team without him.

[red1]

Michael Jordan told Phil Jackson that Scottie Pippen was the second-best player on the 1992 Dream Team: "He was a legitimate star"


https://sports.yahoo.com/article/michael-jordan-told-phil-jackson-023800350.html

[red1]

Michael Jordan Privately Told Phil Jackson In 1992 That Scottie Pippen ‘Was The Best All-Around Player’ On The Bulls

https://www.yardbarker.com/nba/articles/michael_jordan_privately_told_phil_jackson_in_1992 _that_scottie_pippen_was_the_best_all_around_playe r_on_the_bulls_but_he_never_said_it_to_pippen_that _wouldnt_be_like_him/s1_17038_42221025#:~:text=Jordan%2C%20considered%2 0by%20many%20to,0.9%20blocks%20next%20to%20Jordan.

[3ba11]

All you're doing is cherrypicking stats. Which can be done for any team.


During the 1st three-peat, Bulls had lower defensive ranking than 5 of 6 Finals and ECF opponents - this isn't cherry-picking - MJ simply had less defensive help than his Finals or ECF opponents, while having among the least scoring help in the league.

[3ba11]

The bottome line is that the Bulls were a championship team with Jordan. But at best a very good team without him.


Hundreds of bad teams have won 50 or even 60 games.. This is why a single regular season has never determined if a team was "good".. Obviously, there could be extenuating circumstances that could affect a single season, such as being the "letdown" game for opponents all year (sleeping opponents), or a low expectation/honeymoon period, or being a fully-developed 3-peat dynasty with a chip on their shoulder for 1 season.

Accordingly, the factors that actually determine if a team is good include playoff performance and also proving they weren't a fluke by having good regular seasons in future seasons - neither of these things happened - the Bulls collapsed in the playoffs with historic embarrassment, and then they were barely .500 in 1995 (the "real" bulls without MJ).

Pippen was never a franchise player that built a team from scratch... He was simply handed the goat dynasty, which he cratered to barely .500 in less than 18 months..

Any decent scorer would supplant Pippen as 1st option, so building around Pippen would restrict a team's capacity to add talent.. This is why secondary producers like Pippen, Klay, or Middleton aren't franchise players.

[3ba11]

.

Pippen bombed against the Knicks in 3 of 4 series:

1989 Pippen..... 15 on 40%
1992 Pippen..... 16 on 40%
1996 Pippen..... 15 on 33%


That's why Mark Jackson says that MJ "single-handedly" beat the Knicks:

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/bmmfP7xk8yQ

[3ba11]

.
.

Pippen bombed against the Knicks 3 times:

1989 Pippen..... 14 on 58%
1992 Pippen..... 16 on 40%
1996 Pippen..... 15 on 33%



That's why Mark Jackson says that MJ "single-handedly" beat the Knicks:

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/bmmfP7xk8yQ

[3ba11]

.
.
05' HUGHES...... 21.6 PER.... 4.3 BPM.... 0.157 WS/48.... 3.7 VORP.... 22/6/5... 1st Team All-D
90' PIPPEN........ 16.3 PER.... 1.8 BPM.... 0.087 WS/48.... 3.0 VORP.... 16/6/5... No All-D


When we compare Lebron's first playoff teams to Jordan's, we see that Jordan had a 1st-year team and no coaching, while Lebron had a well-coached, 3rd-year team that included the East all-star center and an acquisition that was better than 1990 Pippen on both sides of the ball (above).

Hughes was having his 2nd good season alongside the expert jumpshooting of Arenas (off-guard), but simply cratered alongside Lebron's ball-dominance that made him stand in the corner - this happened with many of Lebron's teammates like Hughes, Jamison, Bosh, Love, Westbrook, Ingram, Wade, IT, Clarkson and many more.

Furthermore, Lebron wasn't all-defense until 09', so the 07' Cavs had better defensive ranking than the 1st three-peat Bulls because their backcourt and frontcourt had all-defensive resumes (Snow, Hughes, Varejao, Ben Wallace), while Zydrunas blocked 2 shots per game.. This is more defensive and offensive help than MJ ever had.

Lebron "floor-raised" the Cavs to 45 wins in Year 5 (2008), so Mo didn't join a good team in 2009... Mo provided the all-star spacing that Lebron's stiff arm needs, which opened up Lebron's game and added 21 wins... Furthermore, the 2010 Cavs added a 20k scorer that outplayed Lebron in the 2007 1st Round (Jamison), so it's pretty nice to have a better scorer than Pippen at THIRD option and better defensive ranking than the 1st three-peat Bulls... Lebron could've won with this team in 2011 because there was a 1-star organic chip up for grabs that Dirk grabbed... But the Cavs would've had the reputed defense and chemistry that the Heat lacked to beat those Mavs..

[Axe]

Nope, the Bulls were -200 to win that series. It's pretty rare for the team with HCA to be the underdog in the Finals.
:oldlol:

He's truly an 8-year old c0cksucking casual who doesn't really know any shit about basketball lmao. (https://i.ibb.co/gDsySW3/IMG-20230603-203842.jpg)

[3ba11]

Nope, the Bulls were -200 to win that series.



* Lebron lost as a -700 favorite to a 1 star team (Dwight)

* Lebron lost as a -200 favorite to a 1-star team (Dirk)

* Lebron lost as a -200 favorite to a 23-year old loser (Ant)

* Lebron lost as a -500 favorite to a 50-win team of fossils (2010)



Otoh, MJ won when expected because he dominates clutch-time and is the most dominant player ever.. GOAT dominance was needed because the Pistons had 5 starters that were each 3x all-stars or better during their career, while the Bulls only had 2 all-stars and a much weaker bench...

Ultimately, Jordan swept the Bad Boy with 1 all-star, while Bird and Magic needed super-teams to barely hang with the Bad Boys... This is how everyone knew that MJ was much better than Magic and Bird - MJ was expected to beat the Bad Boys with little help, while Bird/Magic expected nail-biters despite having super-teams.

Ultimately, the Bulls were underdogs in the 91' preseason, but MJ won with them, so they were favored thereafter.

[3ba11]

I realized something today about Pippen - show me where opposing SF's say he's a great defender and hard to score on.. Show me where Dominique, Hill, Penny, Glenn Robinson, Mashburn, X-Man, Schrempf, Rice and other matchups rave about his defense... They never did... The only people that laud Pippen's defense are the media, teammates and coaches - they're forced to say nice things about Pippen and learned that it's easier to compliment his defense - this dynamic has drastically overrated his defense... No actual matchups praise Pippen because they all busted his a**.... Opposing SF's destroyed Pippen.... Watch Grant Hill vs Pippen - Hill scores on pippen like he's a CHILD... Dominique doubled Pippen in the 93" 1st Round (30 to 15)... X-Man dominated and bullied Pippen so that MJ had to confront X-Man in game 7.. Pippen never locked anyone down as the primary defender.. He wasn't feared ever.. Btw, the bulls had weaker defensive ranking than 5 of 6 ECF or Finals opponents during the first 3-peat (91' Pistons, 91' Lakers, 92' Knicks, 92' Blazers, 93' Knicks)... So the Bulls had weaker defenses than most contenders and among the weakest scoring help in the league.

[ShawkFactory]

I realized something today about Pippen

Oh?? Do tell!!

Actually...I take that back.

[97 bulls]

Hundreds of bad teams have won 50 or even 60 games.. This is why a single regular season has never determined if a team was "good".. Obviously, there could be extenuating circumstances that could affect a single season, such as being the "letdown" game for opponents all year (sleeping opponents), or a low expectation/honeymoon period, or being a fully-developed 3-peat dynasty with a chip on their shoulder for 1 season.

Accordingly, the factors that actually determine if a team is good include playoff performance and also proving they weren't a fluke by having good regular seasons in future seasons - neither of these things happened - the Bulls collapsed in the playoffs with historic embarrassment, and then they were barely .500 in 1995 (the "real" bulls without MJ).

Pippen was never a franchise player that built a team from scratch... He was simply handed the goat dynasty, which he cratered to barely .500 in less than 18 months..

Any decent scorer would supplant Pippen as 1st option, so building around Pippen would restrict a team's capacity to add talent.. This is why secondary producers like Pippen, Klay, or Middleton aren't franchise players.

How can a team that wins 50-60 games be considered bad? Lol And you said hundreds.

[MrFonzworth]

https://youtu.be/wv7aWMfcDlk?si=X3vXzr0ps5m_zxCX ��

[97 bulls]

During the 1st three-peat, Bulls had lower defensive ranking than 5 of 6 Finals and ECF opponents - this isn't cherry-picking - MJ simply had less defensive help than his Finals or ECF opponents, while having among the least scoring help in the league.

What about offensive rating? Where did Jordans teams rank?

[Baller234]

The bottome line is that the Bulls were a championship team with Jordan. But at best a very good team without him.

I'm not dogging the 93-94 team, clearly they were still pretty good without Jordan, but again it still doesn't tell the whole story. By that point the championship pedigree of the team had already been established and the core guys like Pippen and Grant had developed into veteran leaders.

Now ask yourself this, what does that first championship team in 90-91 accomplish without Jordan? I know it's an impossible what-if but do you still think they're that great of a team? Pippen and Grant were not in their true prime yet.

[gengiskhan]

How can a team that wins 50-60 games be considered bad? Lol And you said hundreds.

If the "conference" is very weak.

to top it off, if your "division" is even more very weak.

and you play 5-6 games in you division per team.

[97 bulls]

If the "conference" is very weak.

to top it off, if your "division" is even more very weak.

and you play 5-6 games in you division per team.

So was the conference weak in 93? Or 95? What does that say about Olajuwan winning with the Rockets in 94? Keep in mind that they needed a game 7 and horrific shooting game by John Starks to pull that out.

[Nowoco]

No team with one elite scorer on it is stacked. It would be like saying the 94 Rockets were stacked.

[97 bulls]

No team with one elite scorer on it is stacked. It would be like saying the 94 Rockets were stacked.

What do you consider "elite"?

[3ba11]

What do you consider "elite"?


Dominant scoring capability.. This includes leading your team to the conference finals or Finals, such as Terry Porter dominating the 92' WCF with 26/4/8 and 53% three-point shooting (6 attempts).... Porter did this to make the 90' Finals as wel... Every other notable sidekick did this as well - they dominated while leading their team to the conference finals or Finals, such as KJ, Worthy, X-Man, Kemp, Stockton, Porter and more... Otoh, Pippen was handed the perfect situation of a fully-developed 3-peat dynasty, yet he was destroyed by Ewing in the 2nd Round - Pippen averaged 3.0 on 20% in the 4th quarter of that series and had historic chokes.. He simply wasn't a 1st option and couldn't even average 15 ppg outside the system.

[97 bulls]

Dominant scoring capability.. This includes leading your team to the conference finals or Finals, such as Terry Porter dominating the 92' WCF with 26/4/8 and 53% three-point shooting (6 attempts).... Porter did this to make the 90' Finals as wel... Every other notable sidekick did this as well - they dominated while leading their team to the conference finals or Finals, such as KJ, Worthy, X-Man, Kemp, Stockton, Porter and more... Otoh, Pippen was handed the perfect situation of a fully-developed 3-peat dynasty, yet he was destroyed by Ewing in the 2nd Round - Pippen averaged 3.0 on 20% in the 4th quarter of that series and had historic chokes.. He simply wasn't a 1st option and couldn't even average 15 ppg outside the system.

Jorrans teammates weren't ever going to score more than him because Jordan wouldn't have allowed it.

Its clear that Jordan wanted to lead the league in scoring. When he told Carmello Anthony that all he needed to do was average 8 points per quarter.

In Jordans book 'Driven from Within' Jordan said he couldn't be friends with Orlando Woolridge and Quentin Dailey because they were scorers like him and he was stealing their thunder.

The Bulls were barely beaten by the Knicks in 94. If they had a Kendall Gill or a Latrell Sprewell instead of Pete Myers, I'm sure they'd have beaten the Knicks. Hell they scored more points than the Knicks. And if I remember correctly, Pippen did average 23ppg vs the number defense in the league that year. 25 vs the Cavs.

[Nowoco]

What do you consider "elite"?

Your mom's oral skills.

[3ba11]

Jorrans teammates weren't ever going to score more than him because Jordan wouldn't have allowed it.

Its clear that Jordan wanted to lead the league in scoring. When he told Carmello Anthony that all he needed to do was average 8 points per quarter.

In Jordans book 'Driven from Within' Jordan said he couldn't be friends with Orlando Woolridge and Quentin Dailey because they were scorers like him and he was stealing their thunder.

The Bulls were barely beaten by the Knicks in 94. If they had a Kendall Gill or a Latrell Sprewell instead of Pete Myers, I'm sure they'd have beaten the Knicks. Hell they scored more points than the Knicks. And if I remember correctly, Pippen did average 23ppg vs the number defense in the league that year. 25 vs the Cavs.


even WITH jordan, the bulls needed 7 games to beat the 92' Knicks, and then they were down 2-0 in 93' before MJ took over in the 1st quarter of Game 3 (when the game was competitive) and then 54 points in Game 4 to earthquake shift the series...

So it's a little more complicated than you're saying regarding Sprewell replacing him.. i.e. the Knicks were playing DOWN to the bulls in 94' without the king lion around - they were up 2-0 and then started playing with their food in Game 3 by getting down 22 in the 4th before nearly coming back until the kukoc save.

Btw, both the Bulls/Suns averaged 106.7 ppg and 113.0 ppg in the 93' Finals, so all of Jordan's 41 ppg was needed.. Pippen shot 46.9 true shooting and couldn't handle additional load - his hands were also full defensively with Barkley and Dumas shooting a million percent on him.,

Also, Pippen bombed against the Knicks in 3 of 5 series (89', 92', 96') and nearly caused loss each time - MJ won most series in spite of pippen.. MJ would've easily won titles from 88' to 90' with a big man or shooter to open the lanes like Schrempf, Elliot (who could also handle the ball).. Or the "Bad boy killer" worthy would obviously destroy the bad boys from 88-90'.. So pippen cost MJ a 3-peat from 88-90'.

[97 bulls]

even WITH jordan, the bulls needed 7 games to beat the 92' Knicks, and then they were down 2-0 in 93' before MJ took over in the 1st quarter of Game 3 (when the game was competitive) and then 54 points in Game 4 to earthquake shift the series...

So it's a little more complicated than you're saying regarding Sprewell replacing him.. i.e. the Knicks were playing DOWN to the bulls in 94' without the king lion around - they were up 2-0 and then started playing with their food in Game 3 by getting down 22 in the 4th before nearly coming back until the kukoc save.

Btw, both the Bulls/Suns averaged 106.7 ppg and 113.0 ppg in the 93' Finals, so all of Jordan's 41 ppg was needed.. Pippen shot 46.9 true shooting and couldn't handle additional load - his hands were also full defensively with Barkley and Dumas shooting a million percent on him.,

Also, Pippen bombed against the Knicks in 3 of 5 series (89', 92', 96') and nearly caused loss each time - MJ won most series in spite of pippen.. MJ would've easily won titles from 88' to 90' with a big man or shooter to open the lanes like Schrempf, Elliot (who could also handle the ball).. Or the "Bad boy killer" worthy would obviously destroy the bad boys from 88-90'.. So pippen cost MJ a 3-peat from 88-90'.

Jordan shot 3/18 in game 3. Stop it. And he took more shots than Pippen who was 10/12 (more proof that Jordan was gonna get his shots up regardless of how he or his teammates were playing). Jordan stunk up the joint that series other than that big 54 point game he had. Granted he was playing hurt.

Call it whatever. The Knicks needed 7 games and a bad call to dispatch the Bulls. Facts are facts. Its not far fetched to say that an improvement at SG would've turned the tide.

As has been proven. Jordan didn't need to score 40ppg in 93 vs the Suns, the Suns just couldn't stop him. The irony of you giving so much credit to Jordan for thr Bulls winning the 93 ECF because of 1 game and a quarter, but then bash Pippen for what he did in the 93 Finals? SMH

We can also say that Pippen saved Jordans legacy by bailing him out in 93. And Rodman saved him in 96. Pippen and the bench also saved Jordan in 92 vs the Trailblazers in the 4th quarter of game 6 seeing as how you put so much stock in quarters.

Its funny how you have such low standards for Jordan but cut Pippen absolutely no slack. And it's also funny that you always try to argue that Jordan scored all those points because he had to when Jordan himself said he did it because he wanted to. Even when he had scorers like Dailey, Woolridge and Gervin, he didn't want to share the spotlight with them. Pippen/Grant and then Pippen/Rodman were the perfect compliment to Jordan because they both can impact games without needing to take a much of shots.

[SouBeachTalents]

No team with one elite scorer on it is stacked. It would be like saying the 94 Rockets were stacked.
Exactly why the 2025 Suns > ‘96 Bulls

[Soundwave]

Jordan shot 3/18 in game 3. Stop it. And he took more shots than Pippen who was 10/12 (more proof that Jordan was gonna get his shots up regardless of how he or his teammates were playing). Jordan stunk up the joint that series other than that big 54 point game he had. Granted he was playing hurt.

Call it whatever. The Knicks needed 7 games and a bad call to dispatch the Bulls. Facts are facts. Its not far fetched to say that an improvement at SG would've turned the tide.

As has been proven. Jordan didn't need to score 40ppg in 93 vs the Suns, the Suns just couldn't stop him. The irony of you giving so much credit to Jordan for thr Bulls winning the 93 ECF because of 1 game and a quarter, but then bash Pippen for what he did in the 93 Finals? SMH

We can also say that Pippen saved Jordans legacy by bailing him out in 93. And Rodman saved him in 96. Pippen and the bench also saved Jordan in 92 vs the Trailblazers in the 4th quarter of game 6 seeing as how you put so much stock in quarters.

Its funny how you have such low standards for Jordan but cut Pippen absolutely no slack. And it's also funny that you always try to argue that Jordan scored all those points because he had to when Jordan himself said he did it because he wanted to. Even when he had scorers like Dailey, Woolridge and Gervin, he didn't want to share the spotlight with them. Pippen/Grant and then Pippen/Rodman were the perfect compliment to Jordan because they both can impact games without needing to take a much of shots.

The Sonics were never winning in 96 no matter what, lol. Series was over after that game 3 blow out, good for Seattle for making it look more respectable in the end than it was, but when you're down 3-0 in a series (2 of them being blow out wins) it's just a matter of which game you're getting eliminated in, not if you're getting eliminated. "Rodman won the series for the Bulls" is overstated, especially when Kemp was dunking all over Rodman and often having his way with him.

Game 3 '93 ECF was a terrible shooting night for Jordan from the field, but still he picked it up in other areas, 16/17 from the FT line and 11 assists, 8 boards, 2 steals, 2 blocks is definitely still an impact on the game. He also then obviously followed that game up with 54 points the next game even with a bad wrist.

96 Sonics were a massive step down from the Orlando Magic. Bulls were just playing with their food and wanted to win and celebrate in Chicago, not rainy Seattle. If Orlando played Seattle in the 96 Finals, they win in 6.

Honestly the Magic were the most talented roster overall of the 90s IMO.

Shaq, Penny, Grant, Nick Anderson, Dennis Scott is 5 scorers deep with Shaq being a dominant impact players.

But pure talent isn't everything.

As for the other examples, they're kind of irrelevant. Maybe losing Orlando Woolridge was stupid and premature on the Bulls part, they only gave it what? 90 games together? The reason Woolridge was dumped they quick to move on was because he was doing cocaine, obviously the Bulls realized they had to clean up their locker room as they stumbled into a golden goose generational talent in Jordan and couldn't have shit like that carrying on in the locker room. That was the correct call.

I think the Bulls were stupid to let Charles Oakley though. Bill Cartwright was a massively overrated stiff. They're a dumb management group that lucked into getting Jordan and Pippen and proof positive of that is the years after wards they never accomplished shit.

If Woolridge wasn't addicted to coke, he probably could have had himself a terrific career being a no.2 option for Jordan who knows.

[97 bulls]

The Sonics were never winning in 96 no matter what, lol. Series was over after that game 3 blow out, good for Seattle for making it look more respectable in the end than it was, but when you're down 3-0 in a series (2 of them being blow out wins) it's just a matter of which game you're getting eliminated in, not if you're getting eliminated. "Rodman won the series for the Bulls" is overstated, especially when Kemp was dunking all over Rodman and often having his way with him.

Game 3 '93 ECF was a terrible shooting night for Jordan from the field, but still he picked it up in other areas, 16/17 from the FT line and 11 assists, 8 boards, 2 steals, 2 blocks is definitely still an impact on the game. He also then obviously followed that game up with 54 points the next game even with a bad wrist.

96 Sonics were a massive step down from the Orlando Magic. Bulls were just playing with their food and wanted to win and celebrate in Chicago, not rainy Seattle. If Orlando played Seattle in the 96 Finals, they win in 6.

Honestly the Magic were the most talented roster overall of the 90s IMO.

Shaq, Penny, Grant, Nick Anderson, Dennis Scott is 5 scorers deep with Shaq being a dominant impact players.

But pure talent isn't everything.

As for the other examples, they're kind of irrelevant. Maybe losing Orlando Woolridge was stupid and premature on the Bulls part, they only gave it what? 90 games together? The reason Woolridge was dumped they quick to move on was because he was doing cocaine, obviously the Bulls realized they had to clean up their locker room as they stumbled into a golden goose generational talent in Jordan and couldn't have shit like that carrying on in the locker room. That was the correct call.

I think the Bulls were stupid to let Charles Oakley though. Bill Cartwright was a massively overrated stiff. They're a dumb management group that lucked into getting Jordan and Pippen and proof positive of that is the years after wards they never accomplished shit.

If Woolridge wasn't addicted to coke, he probably could have had himself a terrific career being a no.2 option for Jordan who knows.

The argument 3ball is making is that if Jordan had other great scorers around him, he'd have scaled his offensive output back. That he only scored like that because he had no choice because he was playing with offensive scrubs.

When Jordan played with the dreamteam, he took the most shots. Jordan frequently talked about how easy it is to score 30 a game when he said that it's just 8 points a quarter. Jordan clashed with other players that could fill it up in a hurry because he didn't want to share the offensive spotlight. Hell Jerry Stakhouse complained that MJ was a baballhog. Thats why guys like Pippen and Kukoc and Rodman and even Grant to a lesser extent.

Guys like 3ball know stats. Not basketball.

[Nowoco]

96 Sonics were a massive step down from the Orlando Magic.

I'm not having that at all. They were a 64 win team who had swept the two time champion Rockets and defeated a very tough Utah team who would obviously make the finals back to back. They were deep and had shooters. Some people say that the Sonics were the best finals team the Bulls played, it's just they ran into the best version of the 90s Bulls.

[97 bulls]

I'm not having that at all. They were a 64 win team who had swept the two time champion Rockets and defeated a very tough Utah team who would obviously make the finals back to back. They were deep and had shooters. Some people say that the Sonics were the best finals team the Bulls played, it's just they ran into the best version of the 90s Bulls.

I agree. That Sonics team was loaded. Go back and look at their win totals over the previous few seasons. They were legit.

[Da_Realist]

I'm not having that at all. They were a 64 win team who had swept the two time champion Rockets and defeated a very tough Utah team who would obviously make the finals back to back. They were deep and had shooters. Some people say that the Sonics were the best finals team the Bulls played, it's just they ran into the best version of the 90s Bulls.

Agree with this. The Sonics had the talent throughout the 90's but always disappointed in the playoffs because they couldn't handle the pressure of being expected to win. They lost to the Suns in 93. Flamed out against #8 Denver in 94. Gentleman swept by the Nick Van Exel Lakers in 95. By 96, no one believed in them anymore, despite the 64 wins. This is the year they caught lightning in a bottle and played to their level of talent and ran through the league. Then they played the 72 win Bulls, who no one expected them to beat. The Sonics played without pressure that year and it showed.

It's also not a coincidence that the Sonics played their best when they were down 3-0 in the series and no one thought they'd win a game. No expectations = Sonics best ball. They embarrassed the Bulls two straight games.

The next year, fans believe again. Sonics were bounced in the 2nd round. They implode shortly after that.

At their best, they were better than the other Bulls opponents. But their best came too late.

[Baller234]

The Sonics were a very good team but talent wise they weren't messing with the Magic. Payton and Kemp were a great 1-2 punch but Shaq and Penny were generational.

I wouldn't say they were a "massive step down" from the but yea they didn't have the all time potential that Orlando did.

[Nowoco]

Honestly the Magic were the most talented roster overall of the 90s IMO.

Shaq, Penny, Grant, Nick Anderson, Dennis Scott is 5 scorers deep with Shaq being a dominant impact players.


This part I do agree with. I honestly believe that the 90s Magic was the biggest what if/missed opportunity in NBA history. Even more than the 2012 Thunder breaking up. Because Harden as we know now would have always been a playoff choker.

But had Orlando just paid Shaq what he wanted no questions asked, they would have kept him. They disrespected him, were cheap and paid the price. Even if you consider that Penny still has the same injury problems later which some doubt because of the theory that he had to do too much after Shaq which caused them. Regardless, they could easily have found another PG to keep the Magic at the top. That team was young enough, talented enough and with no problems getting free agents to come to Florida to play with Shaq meant it was a certain dynasty missed. Hell, they got Grant Hill and T-Mac to sign and nearly Tim Duncan without Shaq!

The lowball of Shaq in 1996 cost the Magic rings, prestige and who knows where they would be right now if they'd kept him. Miami and Orlando would probably have switched histories with the Magic being Florida's team.

[Phoenix]

The Sonics were a very good team but talent wise they weren't messing with the Magic. Payton and Kemp were a great 1-2 punch but Shaq and Penny were generational.



I would have taken the Magic over the Sonics had they met in 96 finals. Lots of good matchups throughout, especially at the guard position ( Payton/Hawkins vs Penny/Anderson). The difference maker in this series is no answer for Shaq which also neutralizes Kemp. They even more decisively have an edge if Grant is playing and healthy.




But had Orlando just paid Shaq what he wanted no questions asked, they would have kept him. They disrespected him, were cheap and paid the price. Even if you consider that Penny still has the same injury problems later which some doubt because of the theory that he had to do too much after Shaq which caused them. Regardless, they could easily have found another PG to keep the Magic at the top. That team was young enough, talented enough and with no problems getting free agents to come to Florida to play with Shaq meant it was a certain dynasty missed. Hell, they got Grant Hill and T-Mac to sign and nearly Tim Duncan without Shaq!



Yeah, once the Bulls broke up nothing was getting in the way of Orlando at least getting back to the finals. Shaq being there of course shifts the landscape of the Western conference. You would have had the Spurs, Kings and Portland battling it out in the early 2000s. Hard to know if Penny's knee gives out regardless of Shaq( I'll take the view that it was a destined injury), but if it didn't the Magic with a prime Shaq/Penny combo definitely win some rings. And removing Penny from the equation, I imagine TMac at the very least goes to Orlando since that's his hometown. I assume Shaq remaining doesn't allow for them to also sign Grant Hill( not sure how the contracts would have worked out there). Maybe Tmac's back holds up a bit longer for a pairing with Shaq to get some rings between 2000-2005. Also, and this could just be an excuse, but Shaq claims he bulked up when he went to LA because of the frontlines he'd be facing. I wonder if he stays in the East that he mostly retains the slimmer physique he came into the league with, or if his conditioning issues were gonna happen regardless. Some interesting what-ifs regardless that would have changed some legacies. The Spurs may have actually won in at least one of the years that the Lakers won between 2000-2002, so maybe 6 rings if they still wins the other years? Duncan moves from like someone considered top 6-10 to definitely top 5. I don't know if Shaq threepeats with Tmac or Penny, I would guess those pairings produced 2 rings before something happens ( injury or whatever else). Tmac isn't just looked at as a guy who scored alot of points but couldn't get beyond the first round. Penny's legacy also gets a boost obviously.

[3ba11]

Jordan shot 3/18 in game 3. Stop it. And he took more shots than Pippen who was 10/12 (more proof that Jordan was gonna get his shots up regardless of how he or his teammates were playing). Jordan stunk up the joint that series other than that big 54 point game he had. Granted he was playing hurt.

Call it whatever. The Knicks needed 7 games and a bad call to dispatch the Bulls. Facts are facts. Its not far fetched to say that an improvement at SG would've turned the tide.

As has been proven. Jordan didn't need to score 40ppg in 93 vs the Suns, the Suns just couldn't stop him. The irony of you giving so much credit to Jordan for thr Bulls winning the 93 ECF because of 1 game and a quarter, but then bash Pippen for what he did in the 93 Finals? SMH

We can also say that Pippen saved Jordans legacy by bailing him out in 93. And Rodman saved him in 96. Pippen and the bench also saved Jordan in 92 vs the Trailblazers in the 4th quarter of game 6 seeing as how you put so much stock in quarters.

Its funny how you have such low standards for Jordan but cut Pippen absolutely no slack. And it's also funny that you always try to argue that Jordan scored all those points because he had to when Jordan himself said he did it because he wanted to. Even when he had scorers like Dailey, Woolridge and Gervin, he didn't want to share the spotlight with them. Pippen/Grant and then Pippen/Rodman were the perfect compliment to Jordan because they both can impact games without needing to take a much of shots.

In Game 3 of the 93' ECF, Jordan had 8 points and 6 assists in the 1st quarter, compared to 6 and 0 for Pippen... The game wasn't competitive after that and was out of hand early in the 2nd quarter.. This is why it was never reported as a Pippen save until 30 years later by Klutch media and fans.. It's false reporting..

And it doesn't matter how many games a team needed - the Knicks were much better than the 94' Bulls and won despite underperforming drastically - they still killed the bulls despite giving away 3 games, and Pippen was exposed/choked and outplayed by Ewing.

And the Bulls win the 96' Finals without Rodman, but not without Jordan.. Kemp dominated Rodman and got more FMVP votes

And why would I cut Pippen slack for playing horribly - there are a lot of bed-wetting and horrible play that MJ won IN SPITE of, such as the 96-98' Playoffs (17 on 41%), or his horrific splits in the 93' Finals (44/0/59), or getting demolished by X-Man, Schrempf, Penny, Larry Johnson, Juwan Howard, Dominique and many more... Pippen forced Jordan to average 41 ppg and 10-30 ppg more in every series - NO ONE is anywhere near this burden

[1987_Lakers]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Llgnf6gY_gM

[3ba11]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Llgnf6gY_gM




1st quarter

Jordan..... 8 points and 6 assists
Pippen..... 6 points and 0 assists

The game wasn't competitive after that, and it was reported as a Jordan save by the media (see the intro to Game 4)

[3ba11]

New fans don't realize that the bulls weren't losing Game 3 regardless who played, aside from Jordan.. They would've won that game without Pippen, for example, or Grant

[Da_Realist]

This part I do agree with. I honestly believe that the 90s Magic was the biggest what if/missed opportunity in NBA history. Even more than the 2012 Thunder breaking up. Because Harden as we know now would have always been a playoff choker.

But had Orlando just paid Shaq what he wanted no questions asked, they would have kept him. They disrespected him, were cheap and paid the price. Even if you consider that Penny still has the same injury problems later which some doubt because of the theory that he had to do too much after Shaq which caused them. Regardless, they could easily have found another PG to keep the Magic at the top. That team was young enough, talented enough and with no problems getting free agents to come to Florida to play with Shaq meant it was a certain dynasty missed. Hell, they got Grant Hill and T-Mac to sign and nearly Tim Duncan without Shaq!

The lowball of Shaq in 1996 cost the Magic rings, prestige and who knows where they would be right now if they'd kept him. Miami and Orlando would probably have switched histories with the Magic being Florida's team.

The Magic were definitely talented. But they didn't have the grit, the defense, the leadership or the heart needed to win. They didn't win a game against Houston in 95 even with all that young talent. I could argue Orlando had more talent than Houston but at the very least the two teams were even in that department. Houston was tougher and stronger mentally. Same with Chicago in 96. They got blown out by both teams and they lost huge leads to both teams. Lack of leadership and focus. Their talent wasn't enough. Then Shaq left Orlando, who would have been favorites to win it all for the next 5-6 seasons (as the Bulls got older). Shaq leaving showed that winning was not the highest priority to him. He blamed the money but I think he left because he didn't want the smoke blowing in from Chicago. So he left Orlando for an even more talented team in LA where he continued to get swept or beaten in 5 games until Kobe matured and Phil Jackson brought a winning mentality to the team and they both held Shaq accountable. That's when we saw the best version of Shaq...for a season or two.

But that Shaq would not have existed in Orlando because he was not self-motivated and no one else there would have lit a fire into him. So it all worked out for Shaq. He got his rings, his MVP and he climbed up the GOAT ladder but had he stayed in Orlando, even with all the talent on that team, they would have continued to be punked in the playoffs.

[Nowoco]

They didn't win a game against Houston in 95 even with all that young talent.

Factually accurate but if Nick the Brick Anderson makes one of those FTs, the Magic win game 1 and who knows what happens after that.

Going back to the Sonics a second, don't forget that they won 61 games in 1998 after Kemp left and in what became the bloodbath west featuring back to back finals Utah, Shaq and Kobe's Lakers, the twin tower Spurs, a decent Suns team and a very deep but raw Blazers roster.

[3ba11]

The Sonics were the best team in the league in 1994 with 64 wins, but they were historically upset by Dikembe's 8 seeded Nuggets... This was after the Sonics upset Hakeem in the 93' Playoffs and then lost an epic 7-game series to Barkley's Suns In the WCF.. They also had 3 All-NBA selections in 1995.

The point is the Sonics were a long-standing, battle-tested organic juggernaut just like the Rockets, so they would kill the newbie Magic just like the Rockets did..

ALL the western conference contenders were long-standing organic juggernauts that took turns winning the western bloodbath - this means that all of Jordan's Finals opponents were battle-tested warriors that were having their banner year with everything going for them - MJ beat 6 buzz saws in the Finals.. 6 freight trains.. He didn't get to face newbie teams in the Finals like Shaq's Magic, the 15' Warriors, 12' Thunder, or 20' Heat

[97 bulls]

In Game 3 of the 93' ECF, Jordan had 8 points and 6 assists in the 1st quarter, compared to 6 and 0 for Pippen... The game wasn't competitive after that and was out of hand early in the 2nd quarter.. This is why it was never reported as a Pippen save until 30 years later by Klutch media and fans.. It's false reporting..
You said all this already. Many times. My response is that no series is won in 1 quarter. And 1 game. The Bulls needed 4 games to get past a series. And outside of that one game and 1 quarter, Pippen outplayed Jordan. You say the 93 narrative that Pippen outplayed Jordan was created by Klutch Sports, was Marv Albert working for Klutch Sports? Because he also said that it was Pippen, not MJ that was the reason for the Knicks losing to the Bulls

[
And it doesn't matter how many games a team needed - the Knicks were much better than the 94' Bulls and won despite underperforming drastically - they still killed the bulls despite giving away 3 games, and Pippen was exposed/choked and outplayed by Ewing.
The Knicks needed 7 games and a bad call by a ref to beat the Bulls. They were evenly matched. You're acting as if they swept the Bulls. Lol


And the Bulls win the 96' Finals without Rodman, but not without Jordan.. Kemp dominated Rodman and got more FMVP votes
George Karl, Gary Peyton, and Shawn Kemp all said that it was Rodman that was the main reason the Bulls won. I'll take that over what some sportswriters think.



And why would I cut Pippen slack for playing horribly - there are a lot of bed-wetting and horrible play that MJ won IN SPITE of, such as the 96-98' Playoffs (17 on 41%), or his horrific splits in the 93' Finals (44/0/59), or getting demolished by X-Man, Schrempf, Penny, Larry Johnson, Juwan Howard, Dominique and many more... Pippen forced Jordan to average 41 ppg and 10-30 ppg more in every series - NO ONE is anywhere near this burden
Again, running the same broken play. Jordan himself said he didn't want to play with guys that were high volume scorers. He's routinely touted how scoring 30 is nothing more than averaging 8 quarters a game. If I remmeber correctly, he took more shots than the next two players on the Dream Team combined. Jordan WANTED to shoot the way he did. He was successful because he had players like Pippen and Rodman that could impact a game without having to take a bunch of shots.

[97 bulls]

In Game 3 of the 93' ECF, Jordan had 8 points and 6 assists in the 1st quarter, compared to 6 and 0 for Pippen... The game wasn't competitive after that and was out of hand early in the 2nd quarter.. This is why it was never reported as a Pippen save until 30 years later by Klutch media and fans.. It's false reporting..
You said all this already. Many times. My response is that no series is won in 1 quarter. And 1 game. The Bulls needed 4 games to get past a series. And outside of that one game and 1 quarter, Pippen outplayed Jordan. You say the 93 narrative that Pippen outplayed Jordan was created by Klutch Sports, was Marv Albert working for Klutch Sports? Because he also said that it was Pippen, not MJ that was the reason for the Knicks losing to the Bulls

[
And it doesn't matter how many games a team needed - the Knicks were much better than the 94' Bulls and won despite underperforming drastically - they still killed the bulls despite giving away 3 games, and Pippen was exposed/choked and outplayed by Ewing.
The Knicks needed 7 games and a bad call by a ref to beat the Bulls. They were evenly matched. You're acting as if they swept the Bulls. Lol


And the Bulls win the 96' Finals without Rodman, but not without Jordan.. Kemp dominated Rodman and got more FMVP votes
George Karl, Gary Peyton, and Shawn Kemp all said that it was Rodman that was the main reason the Bulls won. I'll take that over what some sportswriters think.



And why would I cut Pippen slack for playing horribly - there are a lot of bed-wetting and horrible play that MJ won IN SPITE of, such as the 96-98' Playoffs (17 on 41%), or his horrific splits in the 93' Finals (44/0/59), or getting demolished by X-Man, Schrempf, Penny, Larry Johnson, Juwan Howard, Dominique and many more... Pippen forced Jordan to average 41 ppg and 10-30 ppg more in every series - NO ONE is anywhere near this burden
Again, running the same broken play. Jordan himself said he didn't want to play with guys that were high volume scorers. He's routinely touted how scoring 30 is nothing more than averaging 8 quarters a game. If I remmeber correctly, he took more shots than the next two players on the Dream Team combined. Jordan WANTED to shoot the way he did. He was successful because he had players like Pippen and Rodman that could impact a game without having to take a bunch of shots.

[3ba11]

.
.
When Pippen met Ewing in the 94' Playoffs, Ewing proved easily superior, as expected:



EWING'.... 18.7 gmsc... clutch in 4th
PIPPEN.... 15.6 gmsc... 3.0 on 20% in 4th quarter (https://i.makeagif.com/media/11-21-2021/jbCxdB.gif) and numerous HISTORIC chokes (https://i.makeagif.com/media/5-21-2024/21yvSq.gif)



https://i.makeagif.com/media/5-16-2025/pVPeW1.gif

https://i.makeagif.com/media/5-21-2024/21yvSq.gif

https://i.makeagif.com/media/12-12-2021/LCBZJA.gif

https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/cache.php?img=https%3A%2F%2Fi.makeagif.com%2Fmedia %2F4-28-2024%2F5EZjOa.gif



Pippen was never a franchise player that built a team from scratch... He was simply handed the goat dynasty, which he cratered to barely .500 in less than 18 months..

Any decent scorer would supplant Pippen as 1st option, so building around Pippen would restrict a team's capacity to add talent.. This is why secondary producers like Pippen, Klay, or Middleton aren't franchise players.

[3ba11]

no game is won in 1 quarter.





They are all the time, and this one was.. You're disputing things that are public information - no one that watched the game said it was a Pippen save for 30 years... you just looked at a boxscore 30 years later after watching Nick Wright.. Admit it...

Anyone can watch the game and see that Pippen didn't save anything because it was a blowout... The only "save" required was MJ setting the tone from the outset when it was competitive, and then everyone rallied around that.. That's how it was reported for 30 years, so you're just lying and spouting Klutch propaganda..






The Knicks needed 7 games and a bad call by a ref to beat the Bulls. They were evenly matched. You're acting as if they swept the Bulls. Lol





Many 7 game series feature mismatched teams, such as the 2025 2nd Round between OKC and Denver, or the 2014 1st Round between the Mavs and Spurs, or the 1994 1st Round between the 64-win Sonics and Dikembe's 8-seed (the goat upset), or the 2008 1st and 2nd Round between the Celtics and Hawks/Cavs.

So you're comprehensively wrong, and it also wasn't a bad call (previous post).. smh.






George Karl, Gary Peyton, and Shawn Kemp all said that it was Rodman that was the main reason the Bulls won. I'll take that over what some sportswriters think.





MJ won the 98' Playoff run with Kukoc as the starting PF, while also 3-peating with Horace Grant and then winning in 97' with Rodman averaging 3/8 for the entire playoffs.

So the PF was a role player position for MJ and he could win with anyone remotely viable in Rodman's place... Otoh, the Bulls can't win without MJ.. We can confirm this because he did things in the 96' Finals that almost no one has ever done... i.e. 94' Hakeem, 00' Shaq', 03' Duncan and 06' Wade (the most dominant playoff runs ever) are the only guys that won Finals while carrying a low-producing sidekick (low scoring & efficiency, aka "bed-wetting")... This is the caliber of scoring required for the 96' and 98' Finals.. In addition to carrying bed-wetters in the Finals, it's also rare to carry the scoring load (defeat max defensive attention).. It's only been done in one-offs, except for MJ's 6 titles.









Again, running the same broken play. Jordan himself said he didn't want to play with guys that were high volume scorers. He's routinely touted how scoring 30 is nothing more than averaging 8 quarters a game. If I remmeber correctly, he took more shots than the next two players on the Dream Team combined. Jordan WANTED to shoot the way he did. He was successful because he had players like Pippen and Rodman that could impact a game without having to take a bunch of shots.






It's all about what the Bulls NEEDED from jordan... Stats confirm that they needed goat scoring from Jordan, such as his teammates' peak stats without him and with him..... or stats like the Suns/Bulls having equal PPG in the Finals and Pippen's horrific efficiency (so he couldn't handle additional load)... Or the 97' Bulls being the only title run that had only 2 guys in double-figures... Or all 6 of Jordan's titles featured the lowest-scoring casts of all-time..

These are ridiculous numbers that prove MJ carried low-producers and role players.. And there's more... Everyone in history required a teammate to lead the scoring for entire playoff runs, but MJ led Pippen in every SERIES by 10-30 ppg... Everyone in history that won more than 2 Finals needed a teammate to get 25 ppg or FMVP for at least 1 of the Finals, but Pippen peaked at 21 ppg and is 0/6 in FMVP (the most futility of any so-called "all-timer")... Kenny Smith sums it up perfectly here (https://www.youtube.com/shorts/58K770Ld-kg).

[97 bulls]

.
.
When Pippen met Ewing in the 94' Playoffs, Ewing proved easily superior, as expected:



EWING'.... 18.7 gmsc... clutch in 4th
PIPPEN.... 15.6 gmsc... 3.0 on 20% in 4th quarter (https://i.makeagif.com/media/11-21-2021/jbCxdB.gif) and numerous HISTORIC chokes (https://i.makeagif.com/media/5-21-2024/21yvSq.gif)



https://i.makeagif.com/media/5-16-2025/pVPeW1.gif

https://i.makeagif.com/media/5-21-2024/21yvSq.gif

https://i.makeagif.com/media/12-12-2021/LCBZJA.gif

https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/cache.php?img=https%3A%2F%2Fi.makeagif.com%2Fmedia %2F4-28-2024%2F5EZjOa.gif



Pippen was never a franchise player that built a team from scratch... He was simply handed the goat dynasty, which he cratered to barely .500 in less than 18 months..

Any decent scorer would supplant Pippen as 1st option, so building around Pippen would restrict a team's capacity to add talent.. This is why secondary producers like Pippen, Klay, or Middleton aren't franchise players.

Unfortunately, Pippen never got 10+ years to lead a team.

The irony of your argument is that you give Jordan literally all the credit for the Bulls 6 titles, then, say Pippen inherited a 3peat team. A team WITHOUT the player you say was the sole cause for the Bulls success.

As far as the call. It's widely considered one of the worst calls in NBA history. Darrell Garnettson said it was a terrible call

https://www.deseret.com/1994/10/13/19136065/garretson-says-call-on-pippen-in-playoff-game-was-terrible/

This is his Referee resume.
As a person who paved the way for modern NBA officiating, Darell Garretson started his career as a referee in the high school and college ranks before joining the NBA in 1967. Garretson spent 27 years blowing the whistle and during that time he officiated more than 2,000 NBA games including 41 NBA Finals games and five NBA All-Star games. Serving as the NBA Chief of Officiating Staff from 1981-1998, Garretson spearheaded changes being made to the league’s officiating and introduced the concept of “refereeing the defense,” the method whereby officials watch the defensive player rather than the basketball. He was instrumental in starting the first union for NBA referees, implementing the three-man officiating crew, and training new referees. Garretson was a fair and impartial judge on the court, traits that endeared him to players and coaches alike.

He also was the head of officiating for almost 20 years.

[97 bulls]

They are all the time, and this one was.. You're disputing things that are public information - no one that watched the game said it was a Pippen save for 30 years... you just looked at a boxscore 30 years later after watching Nick Wright.. Admit it...

Anyone can watch the game and see that Pippen didn't save anything because it was a blowout... The only "save" required was MJ setting the tone from the outset when it was competitive, and then everyone rallied around that.. That's how it was reported for 30 years, so you're just lying and spouting Klutch propaganda..

Bro, you're saying it was a blowout because of 1 quarter. If games are won in the 1st quarter, why do keep playing? Are you saying it was impossible for the Knicks to come back?









MJ won the 98' Playoff run with Kukoc as the starting PF, while also 3-peating with Horace Grant and then winning in 97' with Rodman averaging 3/8 for the entire playoffs.

So the PF was a role player position for MJ and he could win with anyone remotely viable in Rodman's place... Otoh, the Bulls can't win without MJ.. We can confirm this because he did things in the 96' Finals that almost no one has ever done... i.e. 94' Hakeem, 00' Shaq', 03' Duncan and 06' Wade (the most dominant playoff runs ever) are the only guys that won Finals while carrying a low-producing sidekick (low scoring & efficiency, aka "bed-wetting")... This is the caliber of scoring required for the 96' and 98' Finals.. In addition to carrying bed-wetters in the Finals, it's also rare to carry the scoring load (defeat max defensive attention).. It's only been done in one-offs, except for MJ's 6 titles.

The Bulls didnt play the Sonics in 97 or 98. You didnt respond to what was stated. George Karl, Shawn Kemp, and Gary Payton all said it was Rodman that beat them. Not Jordan. But since you bring up the other two Finals (using stats only without context). You always allude to Rodmans contributions. I've sent you actual video of Rodman shutting down Malone in 98. And you still stay with the same dumb reasoning. If Rodman wasn't there Malone kills the Bulls and ends up with at least 1 title.







It's all about what the Bulls NEEDED from jordan... Stats confirm that they needed goat scoring from Jordan, such as his teammates' peak stats without him and with him..... or stats like the Suns/Bulls having equal PPG in the Finals and Pippen's horrific efficiency (so he couldn't handle additional load)... Or the 97' Bulls being the only title run that had only 2 guys in double-figures... Or all 6 of Jordan's titles featured the lowest-scoring casts of all-time..

These are ridiculous numbers that prove MJ carried low-producers and role players.. And there's more... Everyone in history required a teammate to lead the scoring for entire playoff runs, but MJ led Pippen in every SERIES by 10-30 ppg... Everyone in history that won more than 2 Finals needed a teammate to get 25 ppg or FMVP for at least 1 of the Finals, but Pippen peaked at 21 ppg and is 0/6 in FMVP (the most futility of any so-called "all-timer")... Kenny Smith sums it up perfectly here (https://www.youtube.com/shorts/58K770Ld-kg).
Again, you keep running the same broken play. You said all this already. My response is what Jordan himself said. He scored those points because HE WANTED TO!!!! And what he did. Like when he was with the DreamTeam. And what the Bulls did without him in 94.


Let me ask you a question. On a percentage basis, with 100 being the best, how much credit do you give Jordan for the Bulls winning the first 3 titles?

[3ba11]

Bro, you're saying it was a blowout because of 1 quarter. If games are won in the 1st quarter, why do keep playing? Are you saying it was impossible for the Knicks to come back?









The Bulls didnt play the Sonics in 97 or 98. You didnt respond to what was stated. George Karl, Shawn Kemp, and Gary Payton all said it was Rodman that beat them. Not Jordan. But since you bring up the other two Finals (using stats only without context). You always allude to Rodmans contributions. I've sent you actual video of Rodman shutting down Malone in 98. And you still stay with the same dumb reasoning. If Rodman wasn't there Malone kills the Bulls and ends up with at least 1 title.







Again, you keep running the same broken play. You said all this already. My response is what Jordan himself said. He scored those points because HE WANTED TO!!!! And what he did. Like when he was with the DreamTeam. And what the Bulls did without him in 94.


Let me ask you a question. On a percentage basis, with 100 being the best, how much credit do you give Jordan for the Bulls winning the first 3 titles?


You're making my point by bringing up the Olympics because they obviously didn't need him to score and didn't need him to even be there, so of course his numbers are lower... but on the crappy bulls, he was required to be scoring champ every year and carry the scoring load (defeat max defensive attention) more than anyone ever has.

Furthermore, regardless of Jordan was stating how he fulfilled his team's goat scoring need (8 per quarter), or regardless of George Karl giving sound bites to the media to contribute to headline creation, the stats and teammate capability (non-scorers) show that Jordan's scoring was needed.. 41 ppg.. look it up.. both the bulls and suns averaged 106.7 for the series and Pippen had worst-ever efficiency (couldn't handle additional load).. so who cares what Jordan said about the how he fulfills his goat scoring burden because the stats and teammate capability (non-scorers) confirm that Jordan's goat scoring was needed

This is all very obvious and your arguments are bad

Btw, 35-year rodman < 33-year Ben Wallace or 2010 Shaq...

And Jordan gets more credit for the first 3 titles than anyone ever got for their titles... All 6 of his titles are bigger carry-jobs than all but 1 other Finals (94' Hakeem), when MJ wasn't in the league

[97 bulls]

You're making my point by bringing up the Olympics because they obviously didn't need him to score and didn't need him to even be there, so of course his numbers are lower... but on the crappy bulls, he was required to be scoring champ every year and carry the scoring load (defeat max defensive attention) more than anyone ever has.
Bro, youre confusing yourself with your own argument. You keep saying that Jordan scored those points because he had to. Meaning that if he had other great scorers around him, he'd have not had to score so much. And the only way he could score is he'd have to actually shoot the ball. On the Dream Team, Jordan played alongside some of the greatest scorers in NBA history. Why did he still take more shots than the next two GREAT SCORERS COMBINED? The answer is because he WANTED TO!!!!




Furthermore, regardless of Jordan was stating how he fulfilled his team's goat scoring need (8 per quarter), or regardless of George Karl giving sound bites to the media to contribute to headline creation, the stats and teammate capability (non-scorers) show that Jordan's scoring was needed.. 41 ppg..
look it up.. both the bulls and suns averaged 106.7 for the series and Pippen had worst-ever efficiency (couldn't handle additional load).. so who cares what Jordan said about the how he fulfills his goat scoring burden because the stats and teammate capability (non-scorers) confirm that Jordan's goat scoring was needed

This is all very obvious and your arguments are bad
He wasnt talking about the team needs, he was talking about HIS WANTS. For further proof, I direct you to the Bulls 94 season where they replaced him and his 30+ppg with a guy only scoring 8. And still were competitive. Keep in mind that Jordan didn't have an efficient series offensively. None of the Bulls did. The Sonics beat the Bulls in damn near every offensive metric. But they allowed Rodman to run a muck on the offensive boards. What reason does George Karl have to lie?


Btw, 35-year rodman < 33-year Ben Wallace or 2010 Shaq...

And Jordan gets more credit for the first 3 titles than anyone ever got for their titles... All 6 of his titles are bigger carry-jobs than all but 1 other Finals (94' Hakeem), when MJ wasn't in the league

Except for they weren't "carry jobs". He didn't have to be the teams best defender. He didn't have to be the team best rebounder, he didn't have to run the offense, he didn't have to anchor the defense. Keep in mind that im not talking about a playoff run, or a series, or a QUARTER (SMH). I'm talking about from the 1st game of the season to the Finals. Jordan had PLENTY OF HELP.

Again, answer the question, what percentage of credit do you give Jordan for the Bulls winning the first 3peat?

[97 bulls]

You're making my point by bringing up the Olympics because they obviously didn't need him to score and didn't need him to even be there, so of course his numbers are lower... but on the crappy bulls, he was required to be scoring champ every year and carry the scoring load (defeat max defensive attention) more than anyone ever has.
Bro, youre confusing yourself with your own argument. You keep saying that Jordan scored those points because he had to. Meaning that if he had other great scorers around him, he'd have not had to score so much. And the only way he could score is he'd have to actually shoot the ball. On the Dream Team, Jordan played alongside some of the greatest scorers in NBA history. Why did he still take more shots than the next two GREAT SCORERS COMBINED? The answer is because he WANTED TO!!!!




Furthermore, regardless of Jordan was stating how he fulfilled his team's goat scoring need (8 per quarter), or regardless of George Karl giving sound bites to the media to contribute to headline creation, the stats and teammate capability (non-scorers) show that Jordan's scoring was needed.. 41 ppg..
look it up.. both the bulls and suns averaged 106.7 for the series and Pippen had worst-ever efficiency (couldn't handle additional load).. so who cares what Jordan said about the how he fulfills his goat scoring burden because the stats and teammate capability (non-scorers) confirm that Jordan's goat scoring was needed

This is all very obvious and your arguments are bad
He wasnt talking about the team needs, he was talking about HIS WANTS. For further proof, I direct you to the Bulls 94 season where they replaced him and his 30+ppg with a guy only scoring 8. And still were competitive. Keep in mind that Jordan didn't have an efficient series offensively. None of the Bulls did. The Sonics beat the Bulls in damn near every offensive metric. But they allowed Rodman to run a muck on the offensive boards. What reason does George Karl have to lie?


Btw, 35-year rodman < 33-year Ben Wallace or 2010 Shaq...

And Jordan gets more credit for the first 3 titles than anyone ever got for their titles... All 6 of his titles are bigger carry-jobs than all but 1 other Finals (94' Hakeem), when MJ wasn't in the league

Except for they weren't "carry jobs". He didn't have to be the teams best defender. He didn't have to be the team best rebounder, he didn't have to run the offense, he didn't have to anchor the defense. Keep in mind that im not talking about a playoff run, or a series, or a QUARTER (SMH). I'm talking about from the 1st game of the season to the Finals. Jordan had PLENTY OF HELP.

Again, answer the question, what percentage of credit do you give Jordan for the Bulls winning the first 3peat?

[3ba11]

Bro, youre confusing yourself with your own argument. You keep saying that Jordan scored those points because he had to. Meaning that if he had other great scorers around him, he'd have not had to score so much. And the only way he could score is he'd have to actually shoot the ball. On the Dream Team, Jordan played alongside some of the greatest scorers in NBA history. Why did he still take more shots than the next two GREAT SCORERS COMBINED? The answer is because he WANTED TO!!!!




He wasnt talking about the team needs, he was talking about HIS WANTS. For further proof, I direct you to the Bulls 94 season where they replaced him and his 30+ppg with a guy only scoring 8. And still were competitive. Keep in mind that Jordan didn't have an efficient series offensively. None of the Bulls did. The Sonics beat the Bulls in damn near every offensive metric. But they allowed Rodman to run a muck on the offensive boards. What reason does George Karl have to lie?



Except for they weren't "carry jobs". He didn't have to be the teams best defender. He didn't have to be the team best rebounder, he didn't have to run the offense, he didn't have to anchor the defense. Keep in mind that im not talking about a playoff run, or a series, or a QUARTER (SMH). I'm talking about from the 1st game of the season to the Finals. Jordan had PLENTY OF HELP.

Again, answer the question, what percentage of credit do you give Jordan for the Bulls winning the first 3peat?


Jordan with help in Olympics........ 14 ppg
Jordan w/out help on Bulls............ 33 PPG

^^^ Jordan could've averaged 50 against Angola and Lithuania, but he simply scores less when he has more help... This is bball 101.... :confusedshrug:

His efficiency was weaker because in order to achieve the record blowouts, MJ carried the defensive load (5 SPG), and he was also the only scorer-passer on the team - the only guy that averaged high PPG and APG

Ultimately we agree that Jordan carried the goat scoring load... You're counter is that Grant was secretly a 20 PPG guy and Pippen were secretly a 25-30 PPG guy - and MJ simply took all.their shots... No one thinks that except you, because you have no real counter... Everyone knows that Grant was just a "banger", while Pippen's capability was 20 system points or transition, and less than 15 PPG outside the system... And his worst-ever efficiency further confirms that he couldn't handle additional load.. This is basic, ball 101 that you're pretending doesn't exist..

Btw, the reason this matters is that carrying the "star" category of scoring requires less star help, thus allowing GM's to acquire good defenders and role players.. Otoh, ball-dominators like Lebron choke in the clutch against Orlando and are too ball-dominant at high scoring levels to beat top teams - this inability to carry the scoring load requires GM's to get more stars and limits defensive help.. Accordingly Lebron's inability to carry the scoring load prevents elite roster construction, along with his skillset of turning everyone into spot-up shooter.

Carry on... And again, Jordan deserves more credit for his 6 titles than any titles that have ever been won, except Hakeem in 94'.. Everyone else had a "closer", go-to players, bevies of veteran scorers, or simply more star help.

[97 bulls]

Jordan with help in Olympics........ 14 ppg
Jordan w/out help on Bulls............ 33 PPG

^^^ Jordan could've averaged 50 against Angola and Lithuania, but he simply scores less when he has more help... This is bball 101.... :confusedshrug:
Im not talking about how many points he averged per game, I'm talking about how many shots he took per game. He led the Dream Team in FGAs. Why? He had plenth of scorers on his team. He took 14 per game. Barkely and Dexler took 18 together.


His efficiency was weaker because in order to achieve the record blowouts, MJ carried the defensive load (5 SPG), and he was also the only scorer-passer on the team - the only guy that averaged high PPG and APG
You mean like Scottie Pippen on the Bulls? The same Pippen that led the Dream Team in assists. Lol. You're making my point.


Ultimately we agree that Jordan carried the goat scoring load... You're counter is that Grant was secretly a 20 PPG guy and Pippen were secretly a 25-30 PPG guy - and MJ simply took all.their shots... No one thinks that except you, because you have no real counter... Everyone knows that Grant was just a "banger", while Pippen's capability was 20 system points or transition, and less than 15 PPG outside the system... And his worst-ever efficiency further confirms that he couldn't handle additional load.. This is basic, ball 101 that you're pretending doesn't exist..
Pippen definitely couldve averged 25ppg. But like with Jordan on the Dream Team, his efficiency would've suffered because of what hes was asked to do on defense. As well and running the teams offense and being the main help defender and rebounded etc.


Btw, the reason this matters is that carrying the "star" category of scoring requires less star help, thus allowing GM's to acquire good defenders and role players.. Otoh, ball-dominators like Lebron choke in the clutch against Orlando and are too ball-dominant at high scoring levels to beat top teams - this inability to carry the scoring load requires GM's to get more stars and limits defensive help.. Accordingly Lebron's inability to carry the scoring load prevents elite roster construction, along with his skillset of turning everyone into spot-up shooter.
Jordan WANTED to "carry" the scoring load the way he did. He didn't have to.


Carry on... And again, Jordan deserves more credit for his 6 titles than any titles that have ever been won, except Hakeem in 94'.. Everyone else had a "closer", go-to players, bevies of veteran scorers, or simply more star help.

How much credit do you give on a percentage basis? 40% credit? 50? 70? 90? How much credit do you give to the Jordan for the 1st 3 championships?

[Duffy Pratt]

Let me ask you this: Would you classify the voters for the Hall of Fame who put Pippen and Rodman in as “new fans” who were simply inventing a narrative, or did they think the Bulls were stacked?

[3ba11]

Let me ask you this: Would you classify the voters for the Hall of Fame who put Pippen and Rodman in as “new fans” who were simply inventing a narrative, or did they think the Bulls were stacked?


Rodman's HOF was based on DPOY's that he won in Detroit.. He otherwise averaged 4/8 on 37% in the 97' Playoffs, so those Bulls won the first "4 on 5" chip in history.. He wasn't even the starter in the 98' Playoffs.

And yes, HOF voters are swayed by winning spotlight and tradition of team basketball... But in other contexts, they say the Bulls were a 1-man team or all about MJ...

To refute me, citing media awards or voting can't win - only actual PERFORMANCE can counter the points I make... Unfortunately, Pippen never played above a Larry Nance or Iguodala caliber, but the unprecedented winning spotlight inflated him to all-time status and media accolade.

[Duffy Pratt]

Rodman's HOF was based on DPOY's that he won in Detroit.. He otherwise averaged 4/8 on 37% in the 97' Playoffs, so those Bulls won the first "4 on 5" chip in history.. He wasn't even the starter in the 98' Playoffs.

And yes, HOF voters are swayed by winning spotlight and tradition of team basketball... But in other contexts, they say the Bulls were a 1-man team or all about MJ...

To refute me, citing media awards or voting can't win - only actual PERFORMANCE can counter the points I make... Unfortunately, Pippen never played above a Larry Nance or Iguodala caliber, but the unprecedented winning spotlight inflated him to all-time status and media accolade.

False. Your claim is about what people thought at the time, not the actual performance. Until you show some contemporaneous reports that Pippen Rodman Kucok etc… were bad, you will not have established your claim here. You haven’t even tried to do this. Instead, you just repeatedly claim that they were bad because Jordan did all the scoring. Scoring, by itself, doesn’t win. Just look at the 80s Nuggets.

What people thought about the quality of the Bulls at the time is revealed much more by media awards and voting than it is by performance. People often judge performance wrong (witness Embiid’s MVP). But the fact that he won the MVP means that people thought he was good. But I shouldn’t expect otherwise from you; you always shift the ground of your claim. Oh, and by the way, since you made the claim, it’s up to you to provide some evidence for it.

[97 bulls]

Rodman's HOF was based on DPOY's that he won in Detroit.. He otherwise averaged 4/8 on 37% in the 97' Playoffs, so those Bulls won the first "4 on 5" chip in history.. He wasn't even the starter in the 98' Playoffs.

And yes, HOF voters are swayed by winning spotlight and tradition of team basketball... But in other contexts, they say the Bulls were a 1-man team or all about MJ...

To refute me, citing media awards or voting can't win - only actual PERFORMANCE can counter the points I make... Unfortunately, Pippen never played above a Larry Nance or Iguodala caliber, but the unprecedented winning spotlight inflated him to all-time status and media accolade.

Rodmans being in the Hall of Fame is because of his role on 5 championships, 7 rebounding titles, the 2 DPOY awards, and the multiple All Defense selections.

[3ba11]

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https://i.makeagif.com/media/3-29-2025/-nS3eW.gif






False. Your claim is about what people thought at the time, not the actual performance. Until you show some contemporaneous reports that Pippen Rodman Kucok etc… were bad, you will not have established your claim here.






I made numerous posts in this thread of players and coaches saying the Bulls were a 1-man team, and reposted a couple above.

Furthermore, Magic and Isiah CLEARLY TELL bob costas during the 93' Finals that the Bulls were all about MJ (Isiah's comments are the best and perfectly explain my point):

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=N6og_pOVi2w&t=35s


And again, Pippen's performance was horrible.... He averaged 15 on 33% against Dominique in the 93' Playoffs, or the X-Man debacle in the 92' Playoffs... He shot 0% on threes and 46.9 true shooting in the 93' Finals, and 17 on 41% for the 96-98' Playoffs... 19.0 on 42% for his Finals career... So the Bulls learned to win in spite of Pippen, and Pippen obviously cost the Bulls 3 rings from 88-90'.







You haven’t even tried to do this. Instead, you just repeatedly claim that they were bad because Jordan did all the scoring. Scoring, by itself, doesn’t win. Just look at the 80s Nuggets.






If AD averaged 19.0 on 42% in the Finals like Pippen's Finals career, no amount of defense would prevent AD from getting downgraded historically.. It would be considered a bed-wetting.

Secondly, carrying the "star" category of scoring requires less star help, thus allowing GM's to acquire good defenders and role players..

Otoh, ball-dominators like Lebron are too ball-dominant at high scoring levels to beat top teams - this inability to carry the scoring load requires GM's to get more stars and limits defensive help.. Accordingly Lebron's inability to carry the scoring load prevents elite roster construction, along with his skillset of turning everyone into spot-up shooter.

Finally, during the 1st three-pear, the Bulls had lower defensive ranking than 5 of 6 ECF and Finals opponents (91' Pistons , 91' Lakers, 92' Knicks, 92' Blazers, 93' Knicks)... So they had less defensive help than most contenders, and the worst scoring help in the league.








What people thought about the players is more reflected by media awards and voting than it is by performance. People often judge performance wrong (witness Embiid’s MVP). But the fact that he won the MVP means that people thought he was good.

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MJ won MVP, so he was good, while Pippen was like Joakim Noah or Blake Griffin, or many other dudes that were never actual candidates (never top 2)... Pippen was literally never talked about for MVP, aka "who will win it this year Robinson, Hakeem or Pippen".. That conversation never happened on this planet ever