Rich Paul: "MJ never had to leave the Chicago Bulls, MJ was never underdog in Finals"

[Drygon]

Rich Paul (agent & long-time friend of LeBron James): "Michael Jordan never had to leave the Chicago Bulls, MJ was never the underdog in any Finals. MJ never had a 24h/365 days news cycle. He never had shows built strictly to critisize him, MJ played for Dean Smith & Phil Jackson. And MJ had Krause"

https://streamable.com/qr4bd1

https://x.com/RichEisenShow/status/1925665938948366706

[3ba11]

Pippen was horrible from 88' to 90' and cost the Bulls titles, so MJ needed to leave after losing to the Celtics or the Pistons, yet he stayed and persevered.. The same lottery roster from 89' began a 3-peat in 91'..

Also, Lebron won 50-something games with the preseason favorite, so he fell to Finals underdog... He fell from preseason favorite to Finals underdog or loser from 11' to 16, except the Allen miracle..

Ultimately, MJ won without being preseason favorite in 1991, so he was favored thereafter... Otoh, oddsmakers hated Lebron because he lost as the favorite for 3 straight years (09-11'), so they made his veteran super-team an underdog to 22-year baby Westbrick in 2012... The point is that Lebron was a serial choker and bed-wetter when he choked in 2011 and people wondered if he would ever win

It's also worthwhile to mention that the Phoenix was favored to win the title entering the 93' Playoffs, but fell to underdog because an 8 seed took them the limit in the 1st Round.

[Wardell Curry]

Pippen was horrible from 88' to 90' and cost the Bulls titles, so MJ needed to leave after losing to the Celtics or the Pistons, yet he stayed and persevered.. The same lottery roster from 89' began a 3-peat in 91'..

Also, Lebron won 50-something games with the preseason favorite, so he fell to Finals underdog... He fell from preseason favorite to Finals underdog or loser from 11' to 16, except the Allen miracle..

Ultimately, MJ won without being preseason favorite in 1991, so he was favored thereafter... Otoh, oddsmakers hated Lebron because he lost as the favorite for 3 straight years (09-11'), so they made his veteran super-team an underdog to 22-year baby Westbrick in 2012... The point is that Lebron was a serial choker and bed-wetter when he choked in 2011 and people wondered if he would ever win

It's also worthwhile to mention that the Phoenix was favored to win the title entering the 93' Playoffs, but fell to underdog because an 8 seed took them the limit in the 1st Round.

https://c.tenor.com/Ar3v5pxeEzEAAAAC/tenor.gif

[GOBB]

Rich Paul (agent & long-time friend of LeBron James): "Michael Jordan never had to leave the Chicago Bulls, MJ was never the underdog in any Finals. MJ never had a 24h/365 days news cycle. He never had shows built strictly to critisize him, MJ played for Dean Smith & Phil Jackson. And MJ had Krause"

https://streamable.com/qr4bd1

https://x.com/RichEisenShow/status/1925665938948366706

Jesus Christ he tries so hard to convince people Bron is the goat. This forcing nature he has when it comes to bron, MJ and the goat? Just creates resentment. Wish he would shut the f*ck up sometime.

[Xiao Yao You]

Lebron had to leave teams? Mj never lost as the favorite

[Nowoco]

When Rich Paul was on First Take a while back I couldn't believe what I was seeing. He came across like a dull bumbling dribbling idiot. Had nothing to say and said it badly. I mean we all knew this anyway but it just proved that he would be bagging groceries if it wasn't for LeBron. If ever this quote summed someone up its Rich Paul.

"It is better to keep silent and be thought a fool than to speak and remove all doubt".

[2qr3]

https://youtu.be/UPm8_eBLmXA

I recently (2 days ago) watched this related, incredibly thought provoking and deeply insightful video, which was so profoundly compelling that it completely reshaped my perspective.

Its not entirely unrealistic or far fetched to imagine that Jordan could have 15 championships by assembling superteams, much like LeBron James.

Ok, maybe 15 is a little too much, but 12 or 13 if he didn't retire.

[Wally450]

https://c.tenor.com/Ar3v5pxeEzEAAAAC/tenor.gif

:oldlol:

[Full Court]

Rich Paul: ":cry::cry: [damage control]"

Full Court: "Lebron has by far the most choke jobs of all times."


:roll: Bronie fluffers lose again.

[guy]

They weren’t the underdog mainly cause of him. It’s absurd to me how people think LeBron being an underdog as much as he has been is some sort of check mark for him:oldlol:

[Da_Realist]

LeBron didn't have to leave either. He chose to. Many times.

[Full Court]

LeBron didn't have to leave either. He chose to. Many times.

Yep. Nobody in the history of the sport has acheived less with as much help as Lebron's had in his career.

[Baller234]

Lol if Jordan was never the underdog in the finals it would be because of him.

If you take any of the bulls finals and you trade Pippen for the other team's 2nd best player, I still think the bulls win most if not all of those championships just the same. It's an impossible what-if obviously but it's not hard to imagine at all.

Jordan could have won with any other star player as his #2 I think.

[guy]

People really think it’s more of an accomplishment and more impressive that the 2016 Cavs were 57-25 and down 3-1 and came back on the 73-9 Warriors vs if they were 73-9 and the warriors were 57-25 and they beat them in 6. Very warped way of looking at things.

[Nowoco]

There's almost a myth around that 2015-16 Warriors team. Like they were this unstoppable juggernaut cruising towards a chip until the Cavs came back. They had already choked in the WCF by going down 3-1 to OKC in the first place. Yeah they came back but the warning signs were there. Taking nothing away from the Cavs but OKC proved they were vulnerable and could be beat.

73 win teams shouldn't go 3-1 down and they certainly shouldn't choke a 3-1 lead. The 2016 Warriors were NOT the 2017 Warriors.

[gengiskhan]

MJ was UNDERDOG in 2 Finals

1998 NBA Finals with NO HCA
1993 NBA Finals with NO HCA

HCA has lots of benefits including being a favorite especially in an era where Game 6 and Game 7 are played AT HOME in a 2-3-2 format!.

something 2013 LBJ benefitted hugely from. 2013 SAS had to win Game 6 and Game 7 ON THE ROAD. After Brilliant Game 6, After almost winning Game 6 and Ring, After Ray Allen 3, 2013 SAS still played a brilliant Game 7 ON THE ROAD against all odds.

Nobody benefitted more than LBJ. Be it 2013 NBA Finals or 2016 Finals where Greene is suspended for 3 games.

[1987_Lakers]

MJ was UNDERDOG in 2 Finals

1998 NBA Finals with NO HCA
1993 NBA Finals with NO HCA

HCA has lots of benefits including being a favorite especially in an era where Game 6 and Game 7 are played AT HOME in a 2-3-2 format!.

something 2013 LBJ benefitted hugely from. 2013 SAS had to win Game 6 and Game 7 ON THE ROAD. After Brilliant Game 6, After almost winning Game 6 and Ring, After Ray Allen 3, 2013 SAS still played a brilliant Game 7 ON THE ROAD against all odds.

Nobody benefitted more than LBJ. Be it 2013 NBA Finals or 2016 Finals where Greene is suspended for 3 games.

If that's the case, the 2018 Warriors with KD/Curry were underdogs vs Houston

2015 Cavs were underdogs vs Atlanta.

:oldlol:

[StrongLurk]

If that's the case, the 2018 Warriors with KD/Curry were underdogs vs Houston

2015 Cavs were underdogs vs Atlanta.

:oldlol:

Bro said Draymond was suspended for 3 games in the 2016 finals :lol

[BigKobeFan]

Mj was never the underdog because hes the goat

[John8204]

Michael Jordan had a ton of advantages during his era that Lebron didn't have.

MJ only played against US players.

The Pippen Contract allowed the team to overspend on utility guys.

The salary cap was set up in a way where it didn't make financial sense for guys to leave their teams.

Dom tore his ACL, Bias died of cocaine, Magic got AIDS, Bird's back and McHales feet never recovered, Isiah's ankle blew up.

The worst teams in the league all got franchise guys (Hill, Shaq, Webber, Iverson, Kidd, Allen, Garnett). Once Shaq became a free agent and Duncan paired with Robinson...MJ split.

MJ was the best player of his generation but he played 10 years, Lebron put in 20. He weathered a tougher generation than MJ

[Wardell Curry]

Michael Jordan had a ton of advantages during his era that Lebron didn't have.

MJ only played against US players.

The Pippen Contract allowed the team to overspend on utility guys.

The salary cap was set up in a way where it didn't make financial sense for guys to leave their teams.

Dom tore his ACL, Bias died of cocaine, Magic got AIDS, Bird's back and McHales feet never recovered, Isiah's ankle blew up.

The worst teams in the league all got franchise guys (Hill, Shaq, Webber, Iverson, Kidd, Allen, Garnett). Once Shaq became a free agent and Duncan paired with Robinson...MJ split.

MJ was the best player of his generation but he played 10 years, Lebron put in 20. He weathered a tougher generation than MJ


MJ might be a better basketball player than LeBron and it might not even be close but this is all factually correct. The 6 titles argument is bullshit.

Not only that but the one team, The Rockets, that might have sent them packing based on matchups because of Hakeem who they struggled against? The Bulls were lucky enough to avoid.

MJ might be the best player ever but his set of circumstances all fell his way.

I will say I don't ever see him not tearing the 2011 Mavs apart though.

But then again I also don't see him taking those 2007 Cavs to the Finals nor does he take any games off of Golden State in 2015 given how he played most his career.

I think Jordan is better and a better ceiling raiser but I think LeBron was a better floor raiser.


What that means I don't know.

[Xiao Yao You]

Michael Jordan had a ton of advantages during his era that Lebron didn't have.

MJ only played against US players.

The Pippen Contract allowed the team to overspend on utility guys.

The salary cap was set up in a way where it didn't make financial sense for guys to leave their teams.

Dom tore his ACL, Bias died of cocaine, Magic got AIDS, Bird's back and McHales feet never recovered, Isiah's ankle blew up.

The worst teams in the league all got franchise guys (Hill, Shaq, Webber, Iverson, Kidd, Allen, Garnett). Once Shaq became a free agent and Duncan paired with Robinson...MJ split.

MJ was the best player of his generation but he played 10 years, Lebron put in 20. He weathered a tougher generation than MJ

A better generation? Most players used to spend 4 years in college. The league wasnt full of 19 year olds that arent ready for the league but play anyway because many teams are trying to lose games and dont care. Pretty much every game now is watered down by load management ad well. Hard to argue this is a better generation

[gengiskhan]

If that's the case, the 2018 Warriors with KD/Curry were underdogs vs Houston

2015 Cavs were underdogs vs Atlanta.

:oldlol:

You Full Retard.....

During NBA Finals era of 2-3-2. HCA meant every effing thing.

The peace of mind and confidence HCA finalist get, knowing, Game 6 and Game 7 are AT HOME and "we will close them out"

also knowing, rarely any finalist have won Game 3,4,5 aka 3 straight finals games in a row.....rarely, 1991 bulls did it.

1993 Barkley and Suns were so confident when they stole Game 5 in chicago, as they won 2 out of 3 Finals Games at chicago stadium (Game 3 and Game 5).

First of all series has to go into Game 5 and game 6 and game 7.......................we are not taking sweep here!

2-3-2 format made sure NBA Finals get to Game 6 or even Game 7. as 1-1 tied NBA Finals series meant nothing despite HCA stolen. next 3 games, home team lost atleast 1 game out of 3 in a row. means Game 6 is definitely on. also means. game 7 played at same vanue again and Home team wins finals.

[Baller234]

"As you can see these fourteen things all had to align perfectly and at the exact right time or else MJ would have just been another all-star..."

[gengiskhan]

Michael Jordan had a ton of advantages during his era that Lebron didn't have.

MJ only played against US players.

The Pippen Contract allowed the team to overspend on utility guys.

The salary cap was set up in a way where it didn't make financial sense for guys to leave their teams.

Dom tore his ACL, Bias died of cocaine, Magic got AIDS, Bird's back and McHales feet never recovered, Isiah's ankle blew up.

The worst teams in the league all got franchise guys (Hill, Shaq, Webber, Iverson, Kidd, Allen, Garnett). Once Shaq became a free agent and Duncan paired with Robinson...MJ split.

MJ was the best player of his generation but he played 10 years, Lebron put in 20. He weathered a tougher generation than MJ

MJ played aginst real street N*****rs, street thugs, druggies (mad max, anthony mason, oak man etc etc).

none of them european sissy white boys who would easily get r***ed in prison by n****rs could make it to playing 10 in NBA back than. too weak.

Pip was told never to sign that contract. he is a retard for doing so. also, I'll gladly take Pippen for Ewing, Pippen for Hakeem trade.

LBJ and Kobe and Wade had a luxury of playing with domiant big men, Shaq, Gasol, Bosh, AD, Dwight. MJ had no such luxury, NBA best big men make winning easy by grabbing tons of Rebound or putback dunks for LBJ, Kobe, Wade etc etc

1992 NYK peaked, 1993 NYK were legit CHAMPS on Paper. 1992 Olympics burned MJ out. 1994 Reggie and Pacers PEAKED. 1995 HEAT under Riley PEAKED, 1997 BULLS were modern day GSW, 1998 Pacers best team in IND history, 1997 Jazz PEAKED. 1993 SUNS peaked. 1994 ROCKETS peaked. 1992 BLazers PEAKED. 1994 SAS PEAKED, 1996 SONICS peaked. 1992 Bad Boys still very good. when barkley, malone, stockton, hakeem, Ewing, D'Rob, Mutumbo etc etc all big men and ATGs peaked, nobody cares of 'nique or Bias or old, washed up Magic or Bird or Isiah.

[tpols]

Guys...

I think we need to come to terms with the fact that Michael Jordan isn't who we thought he was.

Its like thinking Hulk Hogan was the greatest fighter ever and being serious about it.

:lol

It is going to be OK.

[warriorfan]

Michael Jordan had a ton of advantages during his era that Lebron didn't have.

MJ only played against US players.

The Pippen Contract allowed the team to overspend on utility guys.

The salary cap was set up in a way where it didn't make financial sense for guys to leave their teams.

Dom tore his ACL, Bias died of cocaine, Magic got AIDS, Bird's back and McHales feet never recovered, Isiah's ankle blew up.

The worst teams in the league all got franchise guys (Hill, Shaq, Webber, Iverson, Kidd, Allen, Garnett). Once Shaq became a free agent and Duncan paired with Robinson...MJ split.

MJ was the best player of his generation but he played 10 years, Lebron put in 20. He weathered a tougher generation than MJ

It’s not MJ’s fault he was born in a tougher era and was one of the only to come out of it in one piece. Only the strong survive.

[gengiskhan]

"As you can see these fourteen things all had to align perfectly and at the exact right time or else MJ would have just been another all-star..."

lol.

I still haven't mentioned how 1995 Magic PEAKED!

imagine the lineup of Shaq, Penny, Nick, Shaw, Horace etc will do to GSW, LBJs SUPER teams of today!

What did 1995 Shaq do. He was so scared of GOAT after 1995 sweep. He literally switched conferences neve to face GOAT in PlayOffs.

Thats the fear of GOAT when he wasnt even Young and in his prime.

GTFO with all dat weak shit.

[gengiskhan]

Guys...

I think we need to come to terms with the fact that Michael Jordan isn't who we thought he was.

Its like thinking Hulk Hogan was the greatest fighter ever and being serious about it.

:lol

It is going to be OK.

He Kobe and LBJ were in GOAT's Peak Prime.

Kobe would've raped lot more. venting out on NBA failures left, right and center. :lol

LBJ would've colluded in the European League. :lol

[3ba11]

.

MJ with 7 ppg rookie and 2nd option Oakley (rebounder)

vs

dynasty Celtics/Pistons/Laker



^^^ Rich Paul: "didn't have to leave doh"

[ShawkFactory]

.

MJ with 7 ppg rookie and 2nd option Oakley (rebounder)

vs

dynasty Celtics/Pistons/Laker



^^^ Rich Paul: "didn't have to leave doh"

Way to set yourself up with your talking points in the OP doh :applause:

[John8204]

It’s not MJ’s fault he was born in a tougher era and was one of the only to come out of it in one piece. Only the strong survive.

It is his fault that he left multiple times and didn't play the full 20 seasons. It's also his fault he cried and whined about Bill Laimbeer and they changed the game to take fighting and hard fouls out of the game. It's not Lebron's fault that Iphone's weren't around in the 90's to catch whatever drugs/gambling garbage MJ was doing.

Every generation in basketball is different, It's why I defend Mikan, Wilt, Tiny Archibald, Reggie, Maravich, Walton etc. If Basketball were run like Baseball I think Jordan would be a serving a life-time ban right now, not a former failed owner.

I understand front running hero worship but when MJ's brain turns to puddling near the end. I'm not going to be shocked to find out he threw games. I'll always rank him ahead of Lebron so don't worry MJ fanboys.

[3ba11]

It is his fault that he left multiple times and didn't play the full 20 seasons. It's also his fault he cried and whined about Bill Laimbeer and they changed the game to take fighting and hard fouls out of the game. It's not Lebron's fault that Iphone's weren't around in the 90's to catch whatever drugs/gambling garbage MJ was doing.

Every generation in basketball is different, It's why I defend Mikan, Wilt, Tiny Archibald, Reggie, Maravich, Walton etc. If Basketball were run like Baseball I think Jordan would be a serving a life-time ban right now, not a former failed owner.

I understand front running hero worship but when MJ's brain turns to puddling near the end. I'm not going to be shocked to find out he threw games. I'll always rank him ahead of Lebron so don't worry MJ fanboys.


Paul Pierce and Jimmy Butler are on popular gambling live streams losing hundreds of thousands.

No one cares.

Many NBA players drink and smoke weed on livestreams... It's nothing... Jordan's legend would only grow with glimpses of him in a high roller room constructed just for him to gamble millions... This would be in addition to his alien-like hangtime and nightly highlight reel of destroying today's softies... Imagine MJ dropping 56 on Stacey Augmon, I mean Jaden McDaniels, and it's a NIGHTLY THING for him to get 40+ on some poor sole in today's hands-off, spaced-out beginner format.. This would make up for any gambling, which no one cares about in 2025 and would only add to his legend.. Since when are we so pious in 2025 that "omg, Jordan's cigar smoking and dice games would get REVEALED" (clutching pearls).. gimme a break.. more fake news (that the social media generation would do anything but ENHANCE his legend, not detract from it).

Btw, before MJ retired in 1993, he already accomplished higher levels than Lebron ever did, such as 41 ppg to 3-peat, MVP + DPOY, and winning without joining opposing 1st options or franchise players (organically, i.e. development of chemistry & effective basketball, not additions of talent).

[Full Court]

It is his fault that he left multiple times and didn't play the full 20 seasons. It's also his fault he cried and whined about Bill Laimbeer and they changed the game to take fighting and hard fouls out of the game. It's not Lebron's fault that Iphone's weren't around in the 90's to catch whatever drugs/gambling garbage MJ was doing.

Every generation in basketball is different, It's why I defend Mikan, Wilt, Tiny Archibald, Reggie, Maravich, Walton etc. If Basketball were run like Baseball I think Jordan would be a serving a life-time ban right now, not a former failed owner.

I understand front running hero worship but when MJ's brain turns to puddling near the end. I'm not going to be shocked to find out he threw games. I'll always rank him ahead of Lebron so don't worry MJ fanboys.

If you were a reasonable and objective person, you'd also rank Bird, Magic, Wilt, Russell, Duncan, Hakeem, Shaq, and Curry in front of him too.

[Phoenix]

If you were a reasonable and objective person, you'd also rank Bird, Magic, Wilt, Russell, Duncan, Hakeem, Shaq, and Curry in front of him too.

Yeah good luck with that. This is the same guy who thinks Shaq is outside the top 25 all-time list.

[gengiskhan]

Yeah good luck with that. This is the same guy who thinks Shaq is outside the top 25 all-time list.

Shaq is Top 8 GOATs.

1. GOAT
2. Kareem
3. Magic
4. Wilt
5. Bird
6. Hakeem
7. Bill
8. Shaq Daddy (Kobe's real, biological father that bred him).

[3ba11]

.
Thread Cliffs


You can't whine about being Finals underdog when you barely win 50 game with the preseason favorite.

It's another hole in Lebron's resume that his Finals underdog status is due to weak regular season records and not his rosters, which are initially favored.

Lebron only won 50-57 games with the preseason favorite in 12', 14', 16', and 21', so he fell to underdog each year.. His teams were preseason favorite for a record 6 straight times from 11' to 16' (previous record was 3),

A pattern of falling to underdog despite favored talent/preseason favorites is a sign of a skillset that produces low team ceilings, similar to bad records on the championship level (Finals).. Lebron's ball-dominance or need to go "down-hill" turns everyone into spot-up shooter, which turns preseason favorites into underdog.

[1987_Lakers]

Thread cliffs

1-9

[Da_Realist]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cr7vHAeCg8w

[gengiskhan]

Thread cliffs

1-9

Thread Cliffs

9-0

[3ba11]

Thread cliffs

1-9



REVISED thread cliffs


Lebron's Finals underdog status is due to weak regular season records and not his rosters, since his rosters are initially favored as the preseason favorite.

Lebron's teams were preseason favorite for a record 6 straight times from 11' to 16' (previous record was 3) and also 2021... However, he only won 50-57 games with preseason favorites in 12', 14', 16', and 21', so he fell to underdog each year.

A pattern of falling to underdog despite favored talent is a sign of a skillset that produces low team ceilings, similar to bad records on the championship level (Finals).. Lebron's ball-dominance or need to go "down-hill" turns everyone into spot-up shooter and lacks ball movement or chemistry, thus underperforming favored talent (preseason favorites

[John8204]

Yeah good luck with that. This is the same guy who thinks Shaq is outside the top 25 all-time list.

20-25 and if you would kinda like to address all my issues with Shaq by all means.

I don't have Shaq in my top twenty, apparently this is a big enough deal for people to bring this up over and over again. Here are my ten reasons Shaq isn't a GOAT.

#1 - His rebounding numbers. Shaq is 15th in rebounds, he's allegedly the greatest most dominant big of all-time yet he's behind low tier guys like Dwight Howard, Walt Bellamy, Kevin Garnett, and Wes Unseld. 4 Centers that I have in the top 5 are also top 5 in this stat (Wilt, Moses, Bill, and Kareem) the other center I rank in the top five George Mikan average 13.4 RPG, Shaq only averaged 10.

#2 - His competition, Shaq's greatest accomplishment is his rings as he has four of them. He beat The Indiana Pacers, Philadelphia 76ers, New Jersey Nets, and Dallas Mavericks. Only Dallas with Dirk ever won a ring (thanks to a 37 year old Jason Kidd joining the team). His teams that won featured Kobe and Dwayne Wade along with a who's who list of supporting elite role players. Head to Head he lost to Hakeem Olajuwon's Rockets and Ben Wallaces Pistons.

#3 - He never averaged 30PPG in a season, once again the argument for Shaq is that he was the most dominant player in NBA history. Yet dozens of players have managed to hit the 30PPG threshold and Shaq never did...this was a driving force in his failure to win multiple MVP's.

#4 - He only has a single MVP, while Kobe was likely held back from winning the award because of his rape charge what's Shaq's excuse? He wasn't really competing for the MVP in an era when they piled on guys like Lebron, Jordan, Bird, Magic, or Wilt. The race was open every year and yet for some reason he was never respected enough by the media to get the award more than once.

#5 - The Sacramento Kings Series - 4 rings, 3 Finals MVP's you can remove two of those points after what was the worst called series in NBA history...also

#6 - The Portland Trailblazers Series - Another fixed series...one player benefited from two of the shadiest series in NBA history. The NBA also sabotaged the FBI investigation over game fixing we don't know how many refs would have gone down in Tim was able to wear a wire.

#7 - His weight, the NBA is filled with many great's none of them weighed 400lbs. The man had little self control and discipline plenty of players have weaknesses but how many of them had to do with food.

#8 - His ego, the Magic were a great team and a nice destination for players. Had he stayed on the team that drafted him he would have had great players come over the years to play with the big man. Well he left the Magic and followed Jerry West to Los Angeles who put together a championship level squad for Shaq...he could have stayed in Los Angeles and won 4-5-6 but he couldn't get along with Kobe. So he bounces over to Pat Riley and the team he built up in Miami wins a single title and I guess not believing he could beat the Celtics and Lebron he runs to the Phoenix Suns to play under D'antoni and try and beat Kobe...flops horribly. Then he ring chases with the teams that were better than him...Cleveland and Boston fails to win as a bench player. Shaq's a front runner who when his feelings got hurt he left a dynasty. I don't respect players that leave rings on the table.

#9 - His contemporaries....was Shaq better than KG? Nowitzki? Duncan? or Kobe? Look at Allen Iverson taking a team to the finals with far less talent than any season Shaq played. Jason Kidd did the same thing, won a chip when he was old but maintained his same level of productivity. Is there an argument for Shaq over Jordan and Hakeem? How about Duncan and Kobe? We saw how poorly he performed during his career even though he had all that talent, all of those calls, and all of that raw natural ability.

#10 - The changing of the rules/build of teams....Shaq only made 50% of his free throws so the league changed the rules to help him out. Shaq didn't have to play against the great centers of the 80's/70's/60's. Not a single center cracked the top 75 after Shaq.

Many of you think Shaq's great good for you...I don't I think he was very good. I believe in judging players based on their contemporaries in position and generation so for me Shaq not a high ranked player all-time.

[John8204]

If you were a reasonable and objective person, you'd also rank Bird, Magic, Wilt, Russell, Duncan, Hakeem, Shaq, and Curry in front of him too.

I would not include Duncan, Hakeem, Curry and Shaq in the GOAT discussion.

Mikan, Wilt, Bill, KAJ, Magic, Bird, Jordan, Lebron - those are the generational goats

[Phoenix]

20-25 and if you would kinda like to address all my issues with Shaq by all means.

I don't have Shaq in my top twenty, apparently this is a big enough deal for people to bring this up over and over again. Here are my ten reasons Shaq isn't a GOAT.

#1 - His rebounding numbers. Shaq is 15th in rebounds, he's allegedly the greatest most dominant big of all-time yet he's behind low tier guys like Dwight Howard, Walt Bellamy, Kevin Garnett, and Wes Unseld. 4 Centers that I have in the top 5 are also top 5 in this stat (Wilt, Moses, Bill, and Kareem) the other center I rank in the top five George Mikan average 13.4 RPG, Shaq only averaged 10.

#2 - His competition, Shaq's greatest accomplishment is his rings as he has four of them. He beat The Indiana Pacers, Philadelphia 76ers, New Jersey Nets, and Dallas Mavericks. Only Dallas with Dirk ever won a ring (thanks to a 37 year old Jason Kidd joining the team). His teams that won featured Kobe and Dwayne Wade along with a who's who list of supporting elite role players. Head to Head he lost to Hakeem Olajuwon's Rockets and Ben Wallaces Pistons.

#3 - He never averaged 30PPG in a season, once again the argument for Shaq is that he was the most dominant player in NBA history. Yet dozens of players have managed to hit the 30PPG threshold and Shaq never did...this was a driving force in his failure to win multiple MVP's.

#4 - He only has a single MVP, while Kobe was likely held back from winning the award because of his rape charge what's Shaq's excuse? He wasn't really competing for the MVP in an era when they piled on guys like Lebron, Jordan, Bird, Magic, or Wilt. The race was open every year and yet for some reason he was never respected enough by the media to get the award more than once.

#5 - The Sacramento Kings Series - 4 rings, 3 Finals MVP's you can remove two of those points after what was the worst called series in NBA history...also

#6 - The Portland Trailblazers Series - Another fixed series...one player benefited from two of the shadiest series in NBA history. The NBA also sabotaged the FBI investigation over game fixing we don't know how many refs would have gone down in Tim was able to wear a wire.

#7 - His weight, the NBA is filled with many great's none of them weighed 400lbs. The man had little self control and discipline plenty of players have weaknesses but how many of them had to do with food.

#8 - His ego, the Magic were a great team and a nice destination for players. Had he stayed on the team that drafted him he would have had great players come over the years to play with the big man. Well he left the Magic and followed Jerry West to Los Angeles who put together a championship level squad for Shaq...he could have stayed in Los Angeles and won 4-5-6 but he couldn't get along with Kobe. So he bounces over to Pat Riley and the team he built up in Miami wins a single title and I guess not believing he could beat the Celtics and Lebron he runs to the Phoenix Suns to play under D'antoni and try and beat Kobe...flops horribly. Then he ring chases with the teams that were better than him...Cleveland and Boston fails to win as a bench player. Shaq's a front runner who when his feelings got hurt he left a dynasty. I don't respect players that leave rings on the table.

#9 - His contemporaries....was Shaq better than KG? Nowitzki? Duncan? or Kobe? Look at Allen Iverson taking a team to the finals with far less talent than any season Shaq played. Jason Kidd did the same thing, won a chip when he was old but maintained his same level of productivity. Is there an argument for Shaq over Jordan and Hakeem? How about Duncan and Kobe? We saw how poorly he performed during his career even though he had all that talent, all of those calls, and all of that raw natural ability.

#10 - The changing of the rules/build of teams....Shaq only made 50% of his free throws so the league changed the rules to help him out. Shaq didn't have to play against the great centers of the 80's/70's/60's. Not a single center cracked the top 75 after Shaq.

Many of you think Shaq's great good for you...I don't I think he was very good. I believe in judging players based on their contemporaries in position and generation so for me Shaq not a high ranked player all-time.

Yadda yadda you made a thread a few years ago with the same talking points and I addressed them then. I'm not going through point for point again. Reasonable basketball minds and various publications consistently rank him as a top 10 player, so your odd little diatribes light years from just about everyone else's reality doesn't warrant the energy to address seriously. I just reference it for shits and giggles, not because I think it's actually worth arguing about( which again, I've already addresses in the past).

[John8204]

Yadda yadda you made a thread a few years ago with the same talking points and I addressed them then. I'm not going through point for point again. Reasonable basketball minds and various publications consistently rank him as a top 10 player, so your odd little diatribes light years from just about everyone else's reality doesn't warrant the energy to address seriously. I just reference it for shits and giggles, not because I think it's actually worth arguing about( which again, I've already addresses in the past).

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?510011-My-issues-with-Shaq-as-an-quot-all-time-quot-great

You did not...which makes you a liar. Once again I don't care if someone is a Shaq fan or not, I have my reasons and spelled those out. More than willing to discuss them with anyone. I do this as a grown man and I can do it without insulting anyone.

What I do not accept is lying, and you are a liar

[Phoenix]

I would not include Duncan, Hakeem, Curry and Shaq in the GOAT discussion.

Mikan, Wilt, Bill, KAJ, Magic, Bird, Jordan, Lebron - those are the generational goats

Mikan never averaged 30, isn't that a requisite for GOAT list based on your above list? Shaq came closer to this arbitrary mark than Mikan did, btw. You say you were too young for the 80s but speak as though you have extensive knowledge going back to the early days of the league, so tell us about Mikan's competition( something else you use to knock Shaq). Tell us also why you use 'fixed' series against Shaq, but don't apply that against Kobe who was also in those series. That's the problem with how you view Shaq, you use bullshit talking points against him that could also apply to other players that you rank above him.

[John8204]

Baller789
GimmeThat
Spurs m8
Axe
coastalmarker99
Wardell Curry
ImKobe
SATAN
1987_Lakers
Jasper
SouBeachTalents
Charlie Sheen
j3lademaster
FilmyCogTurner
Kblaze8855
dankok8
SaltyMeatballs
Reggie43
hateraid
Soundwave
RRR3
Overdrive

Here's the list of everyone who posted in that thread....you're name is not on that list. Why do Shaq fans need to lie about him? Why is it an issue that I'm not a fan of the man, I don't bring it up in other threads...you people bring it up. And it's obsession and weird...really...really...really weird.

[Phoenix]

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?510011-My-issues-with-Shaq-as-an-quot-all-time-quot-great

You did not...which makes you a liar. Once again I don't care if someone is a Shaq fan or not, I have my reasons and spelled those out. More than willing to discuss them with anyone. I do this as a grown man and I can do it without insulting anyone.

What I do not accept is lying, and you are a liar

It may not have been that thread but you have dropped that list a few times and I know I addressed it, point for point.

I don't accept trolls, and that's what you are. A weak beta who whenever challenged goes into your 'this is my opinion, I'm a grown man' bullshit. You argue like a little bitch.

[Phoenix]

Baller789
GimmeThat
Spurs m8
Axe
coastalmarker99
Wardell Curry
ImKobe
SATAN
1987_Lakers
Jasper
SouBeachTalents
Charlie Sheen
j3lademaster
FilmyCogTurner
Kblaze8855
dankok8
SaltyMeatballs
Reggie43
hateraid
Soundwave
RRR3
Overdrive

Here's the list of everyone who posted in that thread....you're name is not on that list. Why do Shaq fans need to lie about him? Why is it an issue that I'm not a fan of the man, I don't bring it up in other threads...you people bring it up. And it's obsession and weird...really...really...really weird.

It's weird that you use bullshit nitpicking points about Shaq that you don't use against anyone else. You have the gall to ask if Shaq is better than Iverson because the latter happened to take a team to the finals in one of the weakest conferences ever and never sniffed another one. Or let me guess, because he averaged over 30ppg.........while shooting 40%. Oh here's another one, Shaq shot 50% from the foul line.........but we'll act like Wilt didn't.

You and your arguments.....straight trash.

[John8204]

Mikan never averaged 30, isn't that a requisite for GOAT list based on your above list? Shaq came closer to this arbitrary mark than Mikan did, btw. You say you were too young for the 80s but speak as though you have extensive knowledge going back to the early days of the league, so tell us about Mikan's competition( something else you use to knock Shaq). Tell us also why you use 'fixed' series against Shaq, but don't apply that against Kobe who was also in those series. That's the problem with how you view Shaq, you use bullshit talking points against him that could also apply to other players that you rank above him.

Mikan won 7 championships, people didn't average 30 back then because of the shot clock wasn't created until Mikan came along. Shaq on the other hand played in the era when two other players (Wilt and Jordan) ended their careers with an average of 30 PPG. Mikan didn't play with MVP talent, Shaq played with 4 MVP's and even though he had 4 MVP's he only won 4 titles in 20 seasons.

Also I don't have Kobe in that group...although he did win two other titles while Shaq won another title against Dallas in another very shady series. Unless you are casually ignoring that they busted a ref for being on the take. His success was not only in the games he called but in the games other officials called. That entire era had a massive asterisk in it.

I don't understand your need to lie...it's very strange

[Phoenix]

Mikan won 7 championships, people didn't average 30 back then because of the shot clock wasn't created until Mikan came along. Shaq on the other hand played in the era when two other players (Wilt and Jordan) ended their careers with an average of 30 PPG. Mikan didn't play with MVP talent, Shaq played with 4 MVP's and even though he had 4 MVP's he only won 4 titles in 20 seasons.

Also I don't have Kobe in that group...although he did win two other titles while Shaq won another title against Dallas in another very shady series. Unless you are casually ignoring that they busted a ref for being on the take. His success was not only in the games he called but in the games other officials called. That entire era had a massive asterisk in it.

I don't understand your need to lie...it's very strange

George Mikan won 5 NBA titles, you're sneaking in ones he won in other leagues. I didn't ask you to state the number of titles. I asked you to talk about his competition. If you can shit on Shaq's competition as a point against him then you should be able to talk about Mikan's competition as a bullet point in his favor. I'm listening.

No, you don't have Kobe in the GOAT list but I know you have him over Shaq. Let's see your list again of the top 25 for laughs.

[3ba11]

It's easy to forget that the 2019 Lakers had Zubacs, Caruso, Josh Hart, Ingram, Kuzma, Rondo, and KCP, yet Lebron couldn't develop this into a champion like Jordan did far less help (Grant, BJ, Pippen)..

People simply forget that Lebron diluted the East with the "decision" to put the top 3 first options in the conference on 1 team, aka super-team, aka big 3, aka "not 6, not 7"... This dilution allowed him to win the 2013 East without facing a 50-win opponent, or the 14' ECF with only 22.8 ppg from Lebron... That's why I laugh when people praise Lebron for the 18' Playoffs for beating an injured team (no Kyrie) - he beat the injured, baby Celtics with a 3-time defending conference champion... The 1990 Sixers or 89' Knicks destroy them for example... People overrate this trash in 2018, so they were shocked when Lebron stunk in a non-manufactured conference in 2019.

[John8204]

George Mikan won 5 NBA titles, you're sneaking in ones he won in other leagues. I didn't ask you to state the number of titles. I asked you to talk about his competition. If you can shit on Shaq's competition as a point against him then you should be able to talk about Mikan's competition as a bullet point in his favor. I'm listening.

No, you don't have Kobe in the GOAT list but I know you have him over Shaq. Let's see your list again of the top 25 for laughs.

Those leagues came together to form the NBA, so they the competition became consistent. Seriously do you not know your basic history of the sport. I didn't mention "other" leagues like the NBA existed and you had other options. The man founded the league a league that mind you broke the integration line something baseball stars pushed against. Mikan was also the commissioner of the ABA which helped create the competition and expand the sport. You are being disrespectful to a man who literally did more for competition than any other player/figure in the history of basketball.

But the difference between Mikan and Shaq....Mikan won and Shaq didn't. Shaq won in a weak era and lost in the strong one. Mikan won during his entire run...that is dominance.

You bring up Wilt and the "nitpicking" that I make over Shaq's numbers. Wilt ended his career averaging 30 PPG, led the league in assists, blocks(they didn't count them but we know he did it), rebounds. In his 15 seasons in the league he made the NBA/Conference finals in like 66-75%. When things got tough he didn't leave his team to join up with MVP's year(Nash) after year(Lebron) after year(KG).

Also how am I the troll, I didn't bring up Shaq in this conversation. I don't go to people and say they think one way about an entirely different issue so they don't count. You lied several times in this conversation and still I address your issues.

[Phoenix]

Those leagues came together to form the NBA, so they the competition became consistent. Seriously do you not know your basic history of the sport. I didn't mention "other" leagues like the NBA existed and you had other options. The man founded the league a league that mind you broke the integration line something baseball stars pushed against. Mikan was also the commissioner of the ABA which helped create the competition and expand the sport. You are being disrespectful to a man who literally did more for competition than any other player/figure in the history of basketball.

But the difference between Mikan and Shaq....Mikan won and Shaq didn't. Shaq won in a weak era and lost in the strong one. Mikan won during his entire run...that is dominance.

You bring up Wilt and the "nitpicking" that I make over Shaq's numbers. Wilt ended his career averaging 30 PPG, led the league in assists, blocks(they didn't count them but we know he did it), rebounds. In his 15 seasons in the league he made the NBA/Conference finals in like 66-75%. When things got tough he didn't leave his team to join up with MVP's year(Nash) after year(Lebron) after year(KG).

Also how am I the troll, I didn't bring up Shaq in this conversation. I don't go to people and say they think one way about an entirely different issue so they don't count. You lied several times in this conversation and still I address your issues.

Your first sentence doesn't address the strength of Mikan's competition, which is what I asked about. You criticized Shaq's competition as weak, so by contrast you need to make a case for Mikan having relatively superior competition and to this point, you haven't. I'm not disrespecting Mikan at all, I'm specifically saying that you nitpick shit about Shaq that can also be applied to players you have ranked above him. If Mikan was so dominant then why didn't he average 30ppg one season? That's YOUR bullshit criteria, not mine. Then you skip around it by trying to bring other criteria into the picture while continuing to harp on Shaq's so called weaknesses. I think he has very clear personal failings, work ethic, conditioning, he could have been a better rebounder, though at his peak he was dropping 14 a night. And yes, his end of career team-hopping was below a player of his stature( though he's far from the only great player who did that. I bet you don't give Moses Malone shit for playing on 9 teams). But Shaq's failings and where he left things on the table is what keeps him from being a GOAT candidate, not to the point where he's not a top 20 player. That's just asinine.

I haven't lied at all in this conversation. If this board wasn't so shit with looking up older topics I would show you exactly the argument I had with you a few years ago where you dropped that long bitchfest against Shaq and I went back and forth with you about it.

Oh on the topic of lying, you namedropped Shaq in post #20 so you referenced his name in this topic before I did. I only mentioned his name and your opinion of him for shits and giggles, and as expected you got hooked on the line with your little bitchfest. It's too easy. :lol

[3ba11]

Lebron's Finals underdog status is due to weak regular season records and not his rosters, since his rosters are initially favored as the preseason favorite.

He only won 50-57 games with preseason favorites in 12', 14', 16', and 21', so he fell to underdog each year... Lebron's teams were preseason favorite for a record 6 straight times from 11' to 16' (previous record was 3) and also 2021.

A pattern of falling to underdog despite favored talent is a sign of a skillset that produces low team ceilings, similar to bad records on the championship level (Finals).. Lebron's ball-dominance or need to go "down-hill" turns everyone into spot-up shooter and lacks ball movement or chemistry, thus underperforming favored talent (preseason favorites).

[John8204]

Your first sentence doesn't address the strength of Mikan's competition, which is what I asked about. You criticized Shaq's competition as weak, so by contrast you need to make a case for Mikan having relatively superior competition and to this point, you haven't.

No the difference between Shaq and Mikan isn't that Mikan played against better guys but that he won. Shaq only won against weak competition he lost against strong competition. The narrative behind Shaq was he was the most dominant player of his generation some say of all-time. It's not about quality but the results.


I'm not disrespecting Mikan at all, I'm specifically saying that you nitpick shit about Shaq that can also be applied to players you have ranked above him. If Mikan was so dominant then why didn't he average 30ppg one season? That's YOUR bullshit criteria, not mine.

Nobody averaged 30PPG until Wilt did Shaq on the other hand Mikan led his leagues in scoring 5 times, Shaq did it twice, never breaking 30PPG. It's a big difference between setting a bench mark and hitting a bench mark. One player set the bench mark the other player couldn't hit it.


Then you skip around it by trying to bring other criteria into the picture while continuing to harp on Shaq's so called weaknesses. I think he has very clear personal failings, work ethic, conditioning, he could have been a better rebounder, though at his peak he was dropping 14 a night. And yes, his end of career team-hopping was below a player of his stature( though he's far from the only great player who did that. I bet you don't give Moses Malone shit for playing on 9 teams). But Shaq's failings and where he left things on the table is what keeps him from being a GOAT candidate, not to the point where he's not a top 20 player. That's just asinine.

I'm sorry am I nitpicking or skipping around on all the things Shaq did wrong during his career. I actually do not blame Moses for leaving his teams, because lets look at the context

Utah Stars (1974–1975) - team folded
Spirits of St. Louis (1975–1976) - league folded
Buffalo Braves (1976) - played two games with them
Houston Rockets (1976–1982) - sold the team and tanked
Philadelphia 76ers (1982–1986) - 76ers dumped their star because of-course they did
Washington Bullets (1986–1988) - traded to the bullets, left in free agency
Atlanta Hawks (1988–1991) - played out his contract
Milwaukee Bucks (1991–1993) - joined the team so he could start
Philadelphia (1993–1994) - backup and support Shawn Bradley
San Antonio Spurs (1994–1995) only team that would take him

Now let's look at Shaq
Orlando Magic - left the team that contended for titles for money
Los Angeles Lakers - left the team that was in a title run for money
Miami Heat - dumped by the team for being lazy
Phoenix Suns - made the team worse
Cleveland Cavs - left the team for the guys that beat him (Celtics)

Do I blame Shaq and not Moses...Moses wasn't sabotaging his teams he just wanted to play. Moses wasn't bouncing around the league trying to be a Laker, Celtic, Bull or Piston...he went to the teams that could have used him.


I haven't lied at all in this conversation. If this board wasn't so shit with looking up older topics I would show you exactly the argument I had with you a few years ago where you dropped that long bitchfest against Shaq and I went back and forth with you about it.

Oh on the topic of lying, you namedropped Shaq in post #20 so you referenced his name in this topic before I did. I only mentioned his name and your opinion of him for shits and giggles, and as expected you got hooked on the line with your little bitchfest. It's too easy. :lol

I was able to find my post and the thread, you weren't. I mentioned a dozen players. You claim that you aren't a liar and I'm troll and then you admit to trolling. You are a grown man and you want to talk about basketball but you can't so you act like a child.

[Phoenix]

No the difference between Shaq and Mikan isn't that Mikan played against better guys but that he won. Shaq only won against weak competition he lost against strong competition. The narrative behind Shaq was he was the most dominant player of his generation some say of all-time. It's not about quality but the results.


That makes no sense. You're equating Shaq's weak competition as who he faced in the finals while ignoring the Spurs, Kings, and Blazers squads in the West that the Lakers beat enroute. If Mikan played against better competition either individually or teamwise he probably doesn't win as many titles, so now you've moved the goalposts to 'it's not that Mikan played better guys but that he won'. So in essence, your argument is that the quality of competition only applies for Shaq but not Mikan. You're hilariously transparent. For you, it's about the results while ignoring context. You fast forward Mikan 10-15 years and his career then intersects with Wilt and Russell. Still think he's winning all those titles?

Who was Shaq battling at the center spot? Hakeem, Robinson, Ewing, Mourning, Mutumbo. What teams was he losing to during his prime? The 95 Rockets with peak Hakeem, 96 Bulls with MJ, 97/98 Jazz with Stockton and Malone, and the Spurs with Duncan and Robinson in 99 and 03. Now enlighten us on who Mikan was facing in 1948 that would be the same relative level of competition, either individually or team-wise.



Nobody averaged 30PPG until Wilt did Shaq on the other hand Mikan led his leagues in scoring 5 times, Shaq did it twice, never breaking 30PPG. It's a big difference between setting a bench mark and hitting a bench mark. One player set the bench mark the other player couldn't hit it.


Mikan averaged a high of 28.4ppg when his 2nd scorer was averaging 15. Shaq was dropping 29ppg with Penny Hardaway averaging 21, Nick Anderson 16, Horace Grant and Dennis Scott averaging 13( 95 Magic). Or dropping 29.7 in 2000 with Kobe dropping 22.5( most reasonable people would round that to 30 but this is you we're talking about), or 28.7 in 2001 with Kobe averaging 28.5. Shaq was competing with guys like David Robinson, Jordan, Iverson for scoring titles. How much do you think he would average at his apex if his second scorer was, say, Dennis Scott?

Who was Mikan competing with for those 5 scoring titles? Like in 1950 when he leads the league with 27.4, the 2nd scorer is 23.4 and the third guy is 17.8. That's the hill you want to die on??



I'm sorry am I nitpicking or skipping around on all the things Shaq did wrong during his career. I actually do not blame Moses for leaving his teams, because lets look at the context

Utah Stars (1974–1975) - team folded
Spirits of St. Louis (1975–1976) - league folded
Buffalo Braves (1976) - played two games with them
Houston Rockets (1976–1982) - sold the team and tanked
Philadelphia 76ers (1982–1986) - 76ers dumped their star because of-course they did
Washington Bullets (1986–1988) - traded to the bullets, left in free agency
Atlanta Hawks (1988–1991) - played out his contract
Milwaukee Bucks (1991–1993) - joined the team so he could start
Philadelphia (1993–1994) - backup and support Shawn Bradley
San Antonio Spurs (1994–1995) only team that would take him

Now let's look at Shaq
Orlando Magic - left the team that contended for titles for money
Los Angeles Lakers - left the team that was in a title run for money
Miami Heat - dumped by the team for being lazy
Phoenix Suns - made the team worse
Cleveland Cavs - left the team for the guys that beat him (Celtics)

Do I blame Shaq and not Moses...Moses wasn't sabotaging his teams he just wanted to play. Moses wasn't bouncing around the league trying to be a Laker, Celtic, Bull or Piston...he went to the teams that could have used him.



Anything Shaq did after Miami was basically post-prime. His prior 3 stints either led to finals( Magic) or rings( Lakers,Heat). He actually made the all-star team with the Suns at 36, you say he made the team worse but ignore that the reason they didn't make the playoffs in 09 was two of their starters, Amare and Jason Richardson, missing a combined 54 games to injury and they still won 46 games. Meanwhile Moses last all-star year was at 33 and he was basically washed after 34. I don't like how Shaq ended his career but at least he was going to teams with the intent to win a title. What was Moses doing averaging 5 points on the 94 Sixers team that won 25 games asides from collecting a check? Moses at 37/38 was expired, Shaq at the same stage was the starting center averaging 12/7 on a 61 win Cavs squad. Let's not glamorize Moses' last few years as part of your anti-Shaq crusade.



I was able to find my post and the thread, you weren't. I mentioned a dozen players. You claim that you aren't a liar and I'm troll and then you admit to trolling. You are a grown man and you want to talk about basketball but you can't so you act like a child.

Is that supposed to be a gotcha? It's your thread, you should be able to find it. :facepalm. Second, if you google 'John8204 insidehoops.com GOAT list', your thread pops up as the first link. The conversation I'm referencing where I addressed all your anti Shaq diatribe, I initially thought was in your thread but it was in a different random thread. And when I use the search option, I get some message saying my account isn't authorized or some bullshit so it's all but impossible to even try finding the conversation I'm referring to. But make no mistake, I've had multiple arguments with you about Shaq going back 2-3 years. If you want to say I'm a liar because I can't find the specific thread where I addressed your laundry list of anti-Shaq bitching point for point, whatever.....what some random idiot on a message board thinks I am is neither here nor there. But your anti Shaq nonsense is well known on this forum and you've been addressed by several posters on it, most calling it out as total nonsense ( like your own thread you linked here). Let me guess, your response is more reductive 'this is my opinion' bullshit? You still not sure about how the internet and message boards work?

Not sure where I admitted to trolling. A casual jab at your Shaq ranking isn't a troll. You mentioned a dozen players but point being, Shaq was one of them and you said you hadn't brought up his name prior in the thread, which you were wrong about. I didn't bring up Shaq's name to start a conversation about it, you bit and proceeded to challenge me to contest your copy and paste wall of trash. Which I said I've already replied to some time ago and wasn't interested in another back and forth because your Shaq take is so extremely biased and nit-picky to even debate in good faith, but congrats you've managed to suck me into another pointless exchange all the same.

[Phoenix]

John8204, since you say I lied about having addressed you extensively before with your Shaq takes....I was only wrong about it being within your specific thread but as you see below...

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?510535-Why-was-Kobe-ranked-over-Shaq-post-Death/page3

Nothing new under the sun with this discourse. :confusedshrug: