From the Shot on Ehlo blog: Bulls had a lost dynasty

[JBSptfn]

https://readjack.substack.com/p/undoing-the-dynasty-michael-magic

Good article about how the Lakers always have been able to re-tool over the years, while the 90's Bulls built a cul-de-sac dynasty that didn't have the vision, and is seen as the organization that did people like MJ and Pippen dirty by not keeping them after 1998.

Here's an excerpt:


Sure enough, Jackson did not return, and on January 13, 1999, with the NBA lockout ongoing, Michael Jordan announced his retirement. The dominoes fell from there in the most stunning roster changeover in NBA history:

January 15: Bulls name Floyd head coach

January 21: Bulls renounce the rights to six players including Jordan and Rodman and trade Steve Kerr to the Spurs

January 22: Bulls trade Pippen to the Rockets

January 23: Bulls trade Longley to the Suns

Incredibly and tragically, these 10 days ended up defining the franchise rather than the 10 years that came before them. The Lakers have always reloaded by either trading for or signing arguably the best player in the league (Wilt, Cap, Shaq, Bron) while also drafting franchise-changing Hall of Famer (Elgin, West, Magic, Kobe).

[pandiani17]

Actually, Jerry Krause wanted to build another championship team for scratch, to show that the Bulls' success was his doing and not the players' or PJs. That is why he drafted Elton Brand, Jamal Crawford, Marcus Fizer, Eddy Curry, Tyson Chandler, Jay Williams, etc. But building championship teams is not as easy as just tanking and getting top draft picks (see The Process of the Sixers). Anyway, they had a good thing going for them before D-Rose got injured, they reached the ECF and they were not far from the championship.

[JBSptfn]

Actually, Jerry Krause wanted to build another championship team for scratch, to show that the Bulls' success was his doing and not the players' or PJs. That is why he drafted Elton Brand, Jamal Crawford, Marcus Fizer, Eddy Curry, Tyson Chandler, Jay Williams, etc. But building championship teams is not as easy as just tanking and getting top draft picks (see The Process of the Sixers). Anyway, they had a good thing going for them before D-Rose got injured, they reached the ECF and they were not far from the championship.

Yeah, the Rose era was the only real good era they had since the 90's glory years.

Also, besides drafting the players you mentioned, I think they wanted to lure FA's around 2000 or so, but failed because of the perception that they screwed the people like MJ that won the titles.

[Da_Realist]

The Bulls never had a shot to become the Lakers. That's like saying Dwyane Wade blew a shot to be Michael Jordan. He was great but not that great. The Lakers are the gold standard in the NBA. They are in the most glamorous city, they have the perfect weather, reputed to have the most beautiful women, golf all year round, star power and Hollywood. Chicago has...Lake Michigan in the summer. The Lakers have the world's greatest players breaking their necks to play for them: Kareem left Milwaukee (Chicago Jr) to play for LA. Wilt left Philly to play for LA. Shaq left Orlando to play for LA. Kobe's agent made sure he played for LA and not Charlotte. They also had the savviest, wisest, GM in the league, Jerry West, for decades. That's not going to be duplicated. Chicago is Cleveland's prettier cousin but both of them get colder than a polar bear's toenails during the regular season. Los Angeles is just different. The Lakers are different.

[warriorfan]

Never been to Chicago but it sounds like it could be fun. The weather is a dealbreaker though. People I know from Chicago say it’s either so cold you wanna die or so hot you wanna die and not really a lot of decent weather in between.

[Axe]

The Bulls never had a shot to become the Lakers. That's like saying Dwyane Wade blew a shot to be Michael Jordan. He was great but not that great. The Lakers are the gold standard in the NBA. They are in the most glamorous city, they have the perfect weather, reputed to have the most beautiful women, golf all year round, star power and Hollywood. Chicago has...Lake Michigan in the summer. The Lakers have the world's greatest players breaking their necks to play for them: Kareem left Milwaukee (Chicago Jr) to play for LA. Wilt left Philly to play for LA. Shaq left Orlando to play for LA. Kobe's agent made sure he played for LA and not Charlotte. They also had the savviest, wisest, GM in the league, Jerry West, for decades. That's not going to be duplicated. Chicago is Cleveland's prettier cousin but both of them get colder than a polar bear's toenails during the regular season. Los Angeles is just different. The Lakers are different.
Lol the lakers weren't even originally in the nba bt, since in the inaugural season way back in the 40s they weren't members yet when the league started as baa. And the lakers name only got carried on when they moved to los angeles, as they were first based in minneapolis before due to thousands of lakes there apparently. I don't get how they've become so famous, prestigious and grand towards fans, coaches and players alike watching the league ever since. Most likely because of hollywood stuff. Teams like the knicks and the celtics feel much more original if anything but the media almost always tries to portrait the lakers as if they're the ones who started it all. Or the only team that matter so much. It's slightly like picking toyota only when it comes to cars, even though there are other good car brands in existence as well. That's why it feels a bit good seeing them miss the playoffs five straight times in the 2010s.

[Da_Realist]

Lol the lakers weren't even originally in the nba bt, since in the inaugural season way back in the 40s they weren't members yet when the league started as baa. And the lakers name only got carried on when they moved to los angeles, as they were first based in minneapolis before due to thousands of lakes there apparently. I don't get how they've become so famous, prestigious and grand towards fans, coaches and players alike watching the league ever since. Most likely because of hollywood stuff. Teams like the knicks and the celtics feel much more original if anything but the media almost always tries to portrait the lakers as if they're the ones who started it all. Or the only team that matter so much. It's slightly like picking toyota only when it comes to cars, even though there are other good car brands in existence as well. That's why it feels a bit good seeing them miss the playoffs five straight times in the 2010s.

I outlined why so many all time greats wanted to play for the Lakers. We're talking all time greats in their primes. That's the real reason the Lakers have become the gold standard. If Wilt, Kareem, Shaq and Kobe (who refused to play for Charlotte) had all played 10 years successively in Atlanta, the Hawks would be the gold standard. The lights attract the stars, the stars attract co-stars, free agents and coaches, the winning builds history and history builds the status. Then the status rebuilds itself.

[3ba11]

Actually, Jerry Krause wanted to build another championship team for scratch, to show that the Bulls' success was his doing and not the players' or PJs. That is why he drafted Elton Brand, Jamal Crawford, Marcus Fizer, Eddy Curry, Tyson Chandler, Jay Williams, etc. But building championship teams is not as easy as just tanking and getting top draft picks (see The Process of the Sixers). Anyway, they had a good thing going for them before D-Rose got injured, they reached the ECF and they were not far from the championship.


The bolded above is where everyone misremembers history - Rose's organic development to winning with "normal" rosters of 1 franchise player was stolen by Lebron's decision to form "super" teams of 3 franchise players.. This is the obvious historical record.. Lebron's "decision" stole organic chips from 11' Rose, 12' KD, 13' Duncan, and 16' Curry.. It provided the unprecedented help of 6 straight preseason favorites from 11' to 16' (previous high was 3), and a sidekick that outplayed the league MVP.. These unprecedented advantages required another unprecedented advantage to overcome it (KD's Warriors). yet the media pretends that Lebron's rings were normal and KD's were cheating.. The historical record disagrees and shows that they both obtained unprecedented advantages.. KD's is rings are actually legit because he was RESPONDING to an unprecedented advantage... He wasn't the creator that enjoyed 6 years as the only team with 3 franchise players on 1 team (super-team).. KD's advantage lasted half as long (17-19').. And many believe that Kyrie is on Curry's level in the Finals, so there was no talent deficit in the 17' Finals - the only deficit was "chemistry" because Lebron's skillset turns everyone into spot-up shooter.. This weak brand barely wins 50 games with the preseason favorite, thus falling to underdog or loser every year (11' to 16'), except the Allen miracle..

[Hey Yo]

I outlined why so many all time greats wanted to play for the Lakers. We're talking all time greats in their primes. That's the real reason the Lakers have become the gold standard. If Wilt, Kareem, Shaq and Kobe (who refused to play for Charlotte) had all played 10 years successively in Atlanta, the Hawks would be the gold standard. The lights attract the stars, the stars attract co-stars, free agents and coaches, the winning builds history and history builds the status. Then the status rebuilds itself.

He refused to play for Calipari and the Nets. He didn't want to play for any team except for the Lakers, he was a front runner.


The Lakers just needed Bryant to convince Calipari and the Nets that the high schooler wouldn't play for the Nets under any circumstance. According to Nash, Bryant's camp called him and Calipari and told them he wouldn't play for the Nets. Playing overseas in Italy was mentioned although Nash said he never bought it. There were, however, other factors conspiring against the Nets.

https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/14067829/how-kobe-bryant-almost-became-new-jersey-net-1996-nba-draft

[Hey Yo]

2011 Bulls were the 1 seed and favored over Miami. LeBron and Bosh played great that series... carried Wade's ass.

[3ba11]

2011 Bulls were the 1 seed and favored over Miami. LeBron and Bosh played great that series... carried Wade's ass.


It's a knock on Lebron that he failed to get the 1 seed in 2011 with the preseason favorite and the only super-team in the league.

Lebron's reduction of preseason favorites to weak regular season records and underdog status is one of the many reasons I have him outside of the top 10 all-time.

Again, Lebron's Finals underdog status is due to weak regular season records and not his rosters, since his rosters are initially favored as the preseason favorite.

Specifically, he only won 50-57 games with preseason favorites in 12', 14', 16', and 21', so he fell to underdog each year... Lebron's teams were preseason favorite for a record 6 straight times from 11' to 16' (previous record was 3) and also 2021.

A pattern of falling to underdog despite favored talent is a sign of a skillset that produces low team ceilings.. Bad records on the championship level (Finals) also indicate low team ceilings.. Lebron's ball-dominance or need to go "down-hill" turns everyone into spot-up shooter and lacks ball movement or chemistry, thus underperforming favored talent (preseason favorites).

[JBSptfn]

Kareem left Milwaukee (Chicago Jr) to play for LA.

He wanted to go to the Knicks, too. They screwed up, and didn't take the negotiations seriously enough. They offered cash, and Milwaukee didn't accept it.


Wilt left Philly to play for LA.

In 1968, he was traded to the Lakers because HC Jack Ramsay wanted a smaller team. Didn't work out. The Sixers were 9-73 five years later.


Shaq left Orlando to play for LA.

Don't know if that was completely on the up and up. With MJ back, I wonder if the league pushed him to LA to weaken Chicago's biggest rival in the East.

[kawhileonard2]

It's a knock on Lebron that he failed to get the 1 seed in 2011 with the preseason favorite and the only super-team in the league.

Lebron's reduction of preseason favorites to weak regular season records and underdog status is one of the many reasons I have him outside of the top 10 all-time.

Again, Lebron's Finals underdog status is due to weak regular season records and not his rosters, since his rosters are initially favored as the preseason favorite.

Specifically, he only won 50-57 games with preseason favorites in 12', 14', 16', and 21', so he fell to underdog each year... Lebron's teams were preseason favorite for a record 6 straight times from 11' to 16' (previous record was 3) and also 2021.

A pattern of falling to underdog despite favored talent is a sign of a skillset that produces low team ceilings.. Bad records on the championship level (Finals) also indicate low team ceilings.. Lebron's ball-dominance or need to go "down-hill" turns everyone into spot-up shooter and lacks ball movement or chemistry, thus underperforming favored talent (preseason favorites).

This!