Ant is the best US player < MJ, Robinson, Shaq, Ewing, Malone, Barkley, and many more

[3ba11]

Since the best American player in today's NBA is Ant, and since he's a joke compared to MJ, Robinson, Shaq, Malone, Barkley, Ewing, Alonzo, Drexler, Penny, Kemp, Payton, Stockton, and about 20 other guys, it's confirmed that American basketball has cratered and is a complete joke compared to prior eras.

This cratering of American basketball more than offsets the rise in international players, since American players are still the majority of the NBA... This proves conclusively that today's NBA players are vastly inferior to prior eras.

[tpols]

All it proves is that the game has become far more global and much broader base of talent to choose from.

[Meticode]

Ant's not the best American player to me. He gets pushed into this light by the media because they want him to take the "Face of the League" torch when that torch isn't given, it's earned and taken by the player who wants it. No one wants it right now. Ever since those "He's similar to Jordan" comparisons came out a couple years ago he's been overblown.

He's a great player, a near superstar...athletic, skilled, can shoot and can be a great defender...but at times he feels like he doesn't take it seriously and he lacks competitive spirit doing things like buddy-buddying with LeBron during games and smiling when he should be pissed off at the situation.

[SouBeachTalents]

All it proves is that the game has become far more global and much broader base of talent to choose from.
Facts, much stronger than the plumber & mechanic era of the 90's.

[3ba11]

All it proves is that the game has become far more global and much broader base of talent to choose from.


Who cares about a larger base to choose from if the best source within that base (Americans) are nowhere near prior eras.

Americans make up most of the NBA, so if they're much worse than prior eras, then the whole NBA is much worse

Ultimately, since the best American player in today's NBA is Ant, and since he's a joke compared to MJ, Robinson, Shaq, Malone, Barkley, Ewing, Alonzo, Drexler, Penny, Kemp, Payton, Stockton, and about 20 other guys, it's confirmed that American basketball has cratered and is a complete joke compared to prior eras.

[SouBeachTalents]

Who cares about a larger base to choose from if the best source within that base (Americans) are nowhere near prior eras.

Americans make up most of the NBA, so if they're much worse than prior eras, then the whole NBA is much worse

Ant might not be a top 20 player in 1996, and this cratering of American basketball more than offsets the rise in international comp
Not top 20 when Juwan Howard was making All-NBA & Terrell Brandon was getting MVP votes.

Lmao

[3ba11]

Not top 20 when Juwan Howard was making All-NBA & Terrell Brandon was getting MVP votes.

Lmao


1996

Jordan, Hakeem, Shaq, Robinson, Barkley, Malone, Alonzo, Stockton, Penny, Payton, Magic, Kemp, Hill, Miller, Dikembe


^^^ that's 15 guys and at least 12 of them are 100% clearly better

Again, this massive cratering of the #1 source of NBA players (Americans) confirms that NBA players are worse today than prior eras.

Heck, today's guards have simpleton ball-dominant skillsets, while the bigs are soft as grapes and mainly PNR dunk skillsets - a joke

[3ba11]

Ant's not the best American player to me.





Who would you prefer?

Ja? lol

Tatum? lmao

Slim pickings boss .. American basketball is dead, so today's NBA has inferior players to previous eras

It's pretty simple

The issue is that today's hands-off, spaced-out beginner format produces weaker players... The guards have simpleton ball-dominant skillsets, while the bigs are soft as grapes and mainly PNR dunk skillsets - a joke

[Meticode]

Who would you prefer?

Ja? lol

Tatum? lmao

Slim pickings boss .. American basketball is dead, so today's NBA has inferior players to previous eras

It's pretty simple

The issue is today's hands-off, spaced-out beginner format produces weaker players... today's guards have simpleton ball-dominant skillsets, while the bigs are soft as grapes and mainly PNR dunk skillsets - a joke

While I hate to say it, it's probably Tatum honestly to me and I don't even like Tatum. He's more well-rounded and more accomplished than Edwards. Brunson is more skilled and efficient offensively than both of them, but his problem is defensively he's just not there like Edwards or Tatum is. Edwards has a higher ceiling than Tatum and he'll probably eventually pass him, but he's not better than Tatum to me right now, but he's right there.

You are correct. It's slim pickings. I don't disagree with there being a lack of American players, but that's partly because the eras of Curry and LeBron and Durant have passed now. Give it time.

[SouBeachTalents]

1996

Jordan, Hakeem, Shaq, Robinson, Barkley, Malone, Alonzo, Stockton, Penny, Payton, Magic, Kemp, Hill, Miller, Dikembe


^^^ that's 15 guys and at least 12 of them are 100% clearly better

Again, this massive cratering of the #1 source of NBA players (Americans) confirms that NBA players are worse today than prior eras.

Heck, today's guards have simpleton ball-dominant skillsets, while the bigs are soft as grapes and mainly PNR dunk skillsets - a joke
Did you really think you were going to sneak Magic into that list and not be called out for it :lol You're genuinely dumb if you thought that was the case.

It's very difficult to compare players from 30 years apart, but the only guys clearly better than Ant there are Jordan/Hakeem/Shaq/Robinson/Barkley/Malone, if we're talking specifically 1996, he is absolutely either arguable with or better than everyone else you listed.

[3ba11]

Did you really think you were going to sneak Magic into that list and not be called out for it :lol You're genuinely dumb if you thought that was the case.

It's very difficult to compare players from 30 years apart, but the only guys clearly better than Ant there are Jordan/Hakeem/Shaq/Robinson/Barkley/Malone, he is absolutely either arguable with or better than everyone else you listed.


Based on accomplishment and stats/domination, KJ was better than Ant

KJ made 2 WCF before Barkley arrived, which included s dominant upset over Magic's 1-seeded Lakers in 1990..

So we can add KJ to the list... So far, Ant is like the 15th best American player in 95'

[3ba11]

While I hate to say it, it's probably Tatum honestly to me and I don't even like Tatum. He's more well-rounded and more accomplished than Edwards. Brunson is more skilled and efficient offensively than both of them, but his problem is defensively he's just not there like Edwards or Tatum is. Edwards has a higher ceiling than Tatum and he'll probably eventually pass him, but he's not better than Tatum to me right now, but he's right there.

You are correct. It's slim pickings. I don't disagree with there being a lack of American players, but that's partly because

The eras of Curry and LeBron and Durant have passed now. Give it time.


^^^ See that's the rub here

Lebron, Curry and Durant grew up in the old school basketball.

It's this new hands-off, spaced-out beginner format that produces the weaker skillsets, so this won't change until the NBA brings back a tougher format that produces better players.. Currently, the more old-school formats in international play have less spacing and more physicality, which produces superior hoops instinct and pure scorers

[Meticode]

^^^ See that's the rub here

Lebron, Curry and Durant grew up in the old school basketball.

It's this new hands-off, spaced-out beginner format that produces the weaker skillsets, so this won't change until the NBA brings back a tougher format that produces better players.. Currently, the more old-school formats in international play have less spacing and more physicality, which produces superior hoops instinct and pure scorers

Then you're not comparing players, you're comparing eras.

[3ba11]

Then you're not comparing players, you're comparing eras.


I'm also making a general point that people say today's game has better players due to the rise of good international players, but this is more than offset by the cratering of American talent, as shown in the OP... Btw, it's a common sentiment among today's players and coaches that American basketball is dead... Tons of YouTube videos about it

[SouBeachTalents]

Based on accomplishment and stats/domination, KJ was better than Ant

KJ made 2 WCF before Barkley arrived, which included s dominant upset over Magic's 1-seeded Lakers in 1990..

So we can add KJ to the list... So far, Ant is like the 15th best American player in 95'
Ant's never made the WCF, so this is a good point.

[3ba11]

Ant's never made the WCF, so this is a good point.


My point is that it probably hadn't occurred to you that KJ was better than Ant, with the same number of WCF, except far more domination and consistency.

KJ also dominated Hakeem in 2 seven-game series in 94' and 95' Playoffs.. It was only an underperforming Barkley at 2nd option that wet the bed..

Ant isn't on this level.. And people act blind to how much help that he's had.. MJ won 6 chips with much less.

Then there's the stats like PER, etc where I'm pretty sure KJ comes out ahead too.

[AussieSteve]

This is one of the best argument's for LeBron > MJ.

It was MJ vs USA. I has been LBJ vs the world.

Imagine how many MVPs and rings Lebron wins in a league without Parker & Manu, Jokic, Doncic, Giannis, etc. etc.

[3ba11]

This is one of the best argument's for LeBron > MJ.

It was MJ vs USA. I has been LBJ vs the world.

Imagine how many MVPs and rings Lebron wins in a league without Parker & Manu, Jokic, Doncic, Giannis, etc. etc.


Hakeem, Shaq, and MJ are all better than Jokic, Doncic, and Giannis, while the best American player today has less accomplishments and stats than a young KJ (20-25th best American player).. The massive decline in American basketball from MJ to KJ easily offsets the rise in international players by a wide margin.

Accordingly, today's NBA players are inferior to previous eras, since the highest-caliber source of NBA players (Americans) has cratered in quality.

[AussieSteve]

Hakeem, Shaq, and MJ are all better than Jokic, Doncic, and Giannis, while the best American player today has less accomplishments and stats than a young KJ (20-25th best American player).. The massive decline in American basketball from MJ to KJ easily offsets the rise in international players by a wide margin.

Accordingly, today's NBA players are inferior to previous eras, since the highest-caliber source of NBA players (Americans) has cratered in quality.

This is a nonsense argument.

There is no logical reason why American players would have got worse. But the level of basketball globally has obviously improved.

It's part of MJs legacy, and his GOAT status, that he is a large part of why basketball exploded globally.

Your argument, that the best American players today are worse than previous eras, is much better explained by the fact that they just look worse next the best global players. Because the best global players are much, much better.

[AussieSteve]

THREAD CLIFFS: We can't compare accolades and rings between players today and players from the 1990s, because the standard of competition and number of truly elite players has been so dramatically increased by the globalisation of the game. Hence an MVP or championship objectively carries more value today.

[ShawkFactory]

My point is that it probably hadn't occurred to you that KJ was better than Ant, with the same number of WCF, except far more domination and consistency.

KJ also dominated Hakeem in 2 seven-game series in 94' and 95' Playoffs.. It was only an underperforming Barkley at 2nd option that wet the bed..

Ant isn't on this level.. And people act blind to how much help that he's had.. MJ won 6 chips with much less.

Then there's the stats like PER, etc where I'm pretty sure KJ comes out ahead too.

Hey, we’re all just being honest here.

:lol

[AussieSteve]

My point is that it probably hadn't occurred to you that KJ was better than Ant, with the same number of WCF, except far more domination and consistency.

KJ also dominated Hakeem in 2 seven-game series in 94' and 95' Playoffs.. It was only an underperforming Barkley at 2nd option that wet the bed..

Ant isn't on this level.. And people act blind to how much help that he's had.. MJ won 6 chips with much less.

Then there's the stats like PER, etc where I'm pretty sure KJ comes out ahead too.

If you removed all the Non-US players from the league, and replaced them with G-Leaguers, do you think Ant might have a higher PER? Better stats? More team success?

That's the league that KJ played in.

[3ba11]

If you removed all the Non-US players from the league, and replaced them with G-Leaguers, do you think Ant might have a higher PER? Better stats? More team success?

That's the league that KJ played in.


We can ignore stats and just look at performance... KJ upset Magic in 1990 and then made the Finals with Barkley.. He also averaged 28/5/9 in 2 different 7-game series vs Hakeem in 94' and 95'.

That's better than Ant.. Ant can't even dominate a series against SGA or Luka, let alone actually beat Magic and nearly Hakeem

So again, American basketball has cratered from MJ to KJ, which more than offsets the rise in international talent

[AussieSteve]

We can ignore stats and just look at performance... KJ upset Magic in 1990 and then made the Finals with Barkley.. He also averaged 28/5/9 in 2 different 7-game series vs Hakeem in 94' and 95'.

That's better than Ant.. Ant can't even dominate a series against SGA or Luka, let alone actually beat Magic and nearly Hakeem

So again, American basketball has cratered from MJ to KJ, which more than offsets the rise in international talent

But if there are teams in the league today that are much better top to bottom than Magic's Lakers, your point is nonsense. Yes KJ upset Magic, but would he have upset him if we take out a third of the Lakers roster and replaced them with better players?

EDIT: Also note..."we can ignore stats" closely followed by "He also averaged 28/5/9"... are we ignoring stats, or basing our arguments on them.

I'm ignoring stats. Because stats ARE irrelevant in a league with substantially different competition.

[3ba11]

But if there are teams in the league today that are much better top to bottom than Magic's Lakers, your point is nonsense. Yes KJ upset Magic, but would he have upset him if we take out a third of the Lakers roster and replaced them with better players?


Who says they're better top to bottom?.. You?

Vlade averaged 17/9 and 2.4 blocks against the 91' Bulls in the Finals and destroyed Grant - lets see what Chet does to smaller and less physical frontlines in these Finals.

You think Chet is better than Vlade?.. You're crazy

Of course Magic and Worthy are better than SGA and Jalen, while the Lakers also had an all-star PF in AC Green, and all-time defender Cooper, or 22 PPG Byron Scott.. Scott by himself compares to Jalen, but you have probably seen very little of Scott's freakish athleticism.

Accordingly, on what planet is a team better than the 90' or 91' Lakers "top to bottom".. It's absurd delusion that is rooted in Klutch Sports propaganda and subsequent hypnosis to say nonsensical things

So again, American basketball has cratered from MJ to KJ, which more than offsets the rise in international talent

Btw, I didn't even mention nearly all of the good players on those Lakers either

[SouBeachTalents]

Who says they're better top to bottom?.. You?

Vlade averaged 17/9 and 2.4 blocks against the 91' Bulls in the Finals and destroyed Grant - lets see what Chet does to smaller and less physical frontlines in these Finals.

You think Chet is better than Vlade?.. You're crazy

Of course Magic and Worthy are better than SGA and Jalen, while the Lakers also had an all-star PF in AC Green, and all-time defender Cooper, or 22 PPG Byron Scott.. Scott by himself compares to Jalen, but you have probably seen very little of Scott's freakish athleticism.

Accordingly, on what planet is a team better than the 90' or 91' Lakers "top to bottom".. It's absurd delusion that is rooted in Klutch Sports propaganda and subsequent hypnosis to say nonsensical things

So again, American basketball has cratered from MJ to KJ, which more than offsets the rise in international talent

Btw, I didn't even mention nearly all of the good players on those Lakers either
And Scottie Pippen outscored ALL of them :D

[fsvr54]

Ant is not better than Brunson, Haliburton or Towns.

[AussieSteve]

Who says they're better top to bottom?.. You?

Vlade averaged 17/9 and 2.4 blocks against the 91' Bulls in the Finals and destroyed Grant - lets see what Chet does to smaller and less physical frontlines in these Finals.

You think Chet is better than Vlade?.. You're crazy

Of course Magic and Worthy are better than SGA and Jalen, while the Lakers also had an all-star PF in AC Green, and all-time defender Cooper, or 22 PPG Byron Scott.. Scott by himself compares to Jalen, but you have probably seen very little of Scott's freakish athleticism.

Accordingly, on what planet is a team better than the 90' or 91' Lakers "top to bottom".. It's absurd delusion that is rooted in Klutch Sports propaganda and subsequent hypnosis to say nonsensical things

So again, American basketball has cratered from MJ to KJ, which more than offsets the rise in international talent

Btw, I didn't even mention nearly all of the good players on those Lakers either

3ball. This thread, that you started, suggests that USA players are worse now than in the 90s.

I'm saying that it only seems that way because the rest of the world caught up.

So, top to bottom, the league is stronger now and a KJ level player today would look worse than KJ did 35 years ago because he is, on average, playing against better players now.

To 90 Lakers may have been better than the 25 OKC, relative to their competition. But the competition is better now because the NBA now global.

This makes much more sense than saying "Ant is worse than KJ because he averaged less stats and couldn't make the finals, therefore American players are worse now"

[90sgoat]

3ball, don't you agree that Ant is a glorified Isaiah Rider? Except Rider was a much better dunker.

[GOBB]

Ant is not better than Brunson, Haliburton or Towns.

Oh look everyone. Hot takes just happened. Kewl, totally.

[Phoenix]

We can ignore stats and just look at performance... KJ upset Magic in 1990 and then made the Finals with Barkley.. He also averaged 28/5/9 in 2 different 7-game series vs Hakeem in 94' and 95'.

That's better than Ant.. Ant can't even dominate a series against SGA or Luka, let alone actually beat Magic and nearly Hakeem



You know that thing where you talk about defeating maximum defensive attention? Why are you slobbing off KJ against LA in a series where he averaged 22, Chambers averaged 21.6 and Hornacek 20.8? Bear in mind that both Chambers and Hornachek played less minutes( in the latter case, way less) so their point per minute was actually higher. KJ played 41.4 mins to score 22ppg, Hornachek played 32.2 minutes to score 20.8. Damn near 10 more minutes to score an extra point?! Also Magic averaged 30/12 on 61% TS in that series. By no metric did KJ outplay Magic here, Magic outproduced him with higher GmSc 4 out of 5 games, so it's moreso that the Suns beat the Lakers than KJ beating Magic. KJ actually didn't even lead the Suns in scoring the first 3 games. Game 1 Chambers scored 24 to KJs 9, Game 2 was Hornacek 18 to KJ's 12, Game 3 Chambers had 34, Hornacek 29 and KJ 22. The only thing which boasted KJs ppg that series were games 4 and 5, games the Suns won to close it out and in both cases Magic outscored KJ 43-30 in game 4, and 43-37 in game 5.

Also, KJ averaged 17.8 in the 93 playoffs. You give Scottie Pippen shit for a scoring series like that, but here it's taken as evidence that KJ is better than ANT? Like I really don't care who you think is better, but as par for the course your arguments are bullshit.

[3ba11]

You know that thing where you talk about defeating maximum defensive attention? Why are you slobbing off KJ against LA in a series where he averaged 22, Chambers averaged 21.6 and Hornacek 20.8? Bear in mind that both Chambers and Hornachek played less minutes( in the latter case, way less) so their point per minute was actually higher. KJ played 41.4 mins to score 22ppg, Hornachek played 32.2 minutes to score 20.8. Damn near 10 more minutes to score an extra point?! Also Magic averaged 30/12 on 61% TS in that series. By no metric did KJ outplay Magic here, Magic outproduced him with higher GmSc 4 out of 5 games, so it's moreso that the Suns beat the Lakers than KJ beating Magic. KJ actually didn't even lead the Suns in scoring the first 3 games. Game 1 Chambers scored 24 to KJs 9, Game 2 was Hornacek 18 to KJ's 12, Game 3 Chambers had 34, Hornacek 29 and KJ 22. The only thing which boasted KJs ppg that series were games 4 and 5, games the Suns won to close it out and in both cases Magic outscored KJ 43-30 in game 4, and 43-37 in game 5.

Also, KJ averaged 17.8 in the 93 playoffs. You give Scottie Pippen shit for a scoring series like that, but here it's taken as evidence that KJ is better than ANT? Like I really don't care who you think is better, but as par for the course your arguments are bullshit.


KJ had a lot of help, but not as much as Ant

Randle was an equal scoring partner, while Gobert is a 4x DPOY.. McDaniels is all-defense too and averaged 17 against the Lakers (Pippen)

So they both had great help, except KJ actually dominated Magic and Hakeem (and beat Magic), while Ant underwhelmed and lost to Luka last year and SGA this year.

[Phoenix]

KJ had a lot of help, but not as much as Ant

Randle was an equal scoring partner, while Gobert is a 4x DPOY.. McDaniels is all-defense too and averaged 17 against the Lakers (Pippen)

So they both had great help, except KJ actually dominated Magic and Hakeem (and beat Magic), while Ant underwhelmed and lost to Luka last year and SGA this year.

How was Randle an equal scoring partner? ANT averaged 28ppg to Randles 19 for the season, 25ppg to 21ppg for the playoffs. What schools did you attend growing up that taught you one number being clearly higher than another equates to them being equal or near equal? What does Gobert being the DPOY have to do with his offensive contributions when he averaged 8ppg for the playoffs? The kind of help you're referring to offensive help so Gobert has no place in the conversation.

Why do you continue to say KJ beat Magic when Magic outscored and outproduced him every game of that series? KJ had plenty of help. LITERALLY 2 other 20ppg scorers in Chambers/Hornacek as actual equal scoring partners while playing less minutes than him. If anything, KJ was the scoring help because both Chambers and Hornacek were better scorers in that series when you account for minutes played. You have zero argument to say KJ actually outplayed Magic, so you just repeat the same dumb shit. Magic outplayed KJ in that series, DECISIVELY, and would have won if he had the same degree of offensive help KJ did. Worthy was subpar for the series, going 10 for 40 in games 4 and 5. You think if Magic had Chambers and Hornacek dropping 21ppg a piece that he's losing? Fukk outta here with your bullshit. That would be like arguing Isiah beat Jordan instead of saying the Pistons beat the Bulls. Don't play dumb like you can't grasp the concept that the best player in a series can still end up on the losing side to a better team.

[JohnnySic]

Since the best American player in today's NBA is Ant, and since he's a joke compared to MJ, Robinson, Shaq, Malone, Barkley, Ewing, Alonzo, Drexler, Penny, Kemp, Payton, Stockton, and about 20 other guys, [/B]

Ant is better than Penny lol. Penny was like a Jimmy Butler/Paul George level player who gets remembered as a super-duper star for some reason, maybe because he got injured.

[3ba11]

How was Randle an equal scoring partner? ANT averaged 28ppg to Randles 19 for the season, 25ppg to 21ppg for the playoffs. What schools did you attend growing up that taught you one number being clearly higher than another equates to them being equal or near equal? What does Gobert being the DPOY have to do with his offensive contributions when he averaged 8ppg for the playoffs? The kind of help you're referring to offensive help so Gobert has no place in the conversation.

Why do you continue to say KJ beat Magic when Magic outscored and outproduced him every game of that series? KJ had plenty of help. LITERALLY 2 other 20ppg scorers in Chambers/Hornacek as actual equal scoring partners while playing less minutes than him. If anything, KJ was the scoring help because both Chambers and Hornacek were better scorers in that series when you account for minutes played. You have zero argument to say KJ actually outplayed Magic, so you just repeat the same dumb shit. Magic outplayed KJ in that series, DECISIVELY, and would have won if he had the same degree of offensive help KJ did. Worthy was subpar for the series, going 10 for 40 in games 4 and 5. You think if Magic had Chambers and Hornacek dropping 21ppg a piece that he's losing? Fukk outta here with your bullshit. That would be like arguing Isiah beat Jordan instead of saying the Pistons beat the Bulls. Don't play dumb like you can't grasp the concept that the best player in a series can still end up on the losing side to a better team.


In order to make the 2025 WCF, Randle and Ant were equal-scoring partners in WCSF against the Warriors, while Randle carried Ant in assists and led in gamescore... Otoh, for KJ to beat Magic and make the WCF, he needed to be an all-time floor general and carry the playmaking, while having 6 points higher in gamescore than all teammates.

Accordingly, KJ is better than Ant, or it's at least debateable... This confirms that American basketball has cratered from MJ to KJ, which more than offsets the rise in international talent and therefore confirms that today's NBA players are inferior to prior eras..

[tpols]

American basketball was kind of dumb but made up for it with athleticism.The freak talent athletes MJ, Shaq, Barkley, Malone, Ewing, Rodman and Robinson were something else though. They are on another level physically compared to todays stars. Imagine comparing them to skinny faggy SGA and Haliburton. It sounds cliche but dudes back in the day were tougher. Now we know why GOBB is always so mad.

[3ba11]

American basketball was kind of dumb but made up for it with athleticism.The freak talent athletes MJ, Shaq, Barkley, Malone, Ewing, Rodman and Robinson were something else though. They are on another level physically compared to todays stars. Imagine comparing them to skinny faggy SGA and Haliburton. It sounds cliche but dudes back in the day were tougher. Now we know why GOBB is always so mad.


preach brotha preach

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/1SHYG2jMQBQ


And Shai's midrange is nowhere near Kobe's as far as elevation, tough-shot-making, REPERTOIRE, turnaround ability, etc, etc..

[3ba11]

3ball, don't you agree that Ant is a glorified Isaiah Rider? Except Rider was a much better dunker.


Isiah Rider is a great example of Ant's caliber.

[3ba11]

3ball. This thread, that you started, suggests that USA players are worse now than in the 90s.

I'm saying that it only seems that way because the rest of the world caught up.

So, top to bottom, the league is stronger now and a KJ level player today would look worse than KJ did 35 years ago because he is, on average, playing against better players now.

To 90 Lakers may have been better than the 25 OKC, relative to their competition. But the competition is better now because the NBA now global.

This makes much more sense than saying "Ant is worse than KJ because he averaged less stats and couldn't make the finals, therefore American players are worse now"


KJ is superior to Jalen Brunson because KJ's athleticism would dominate more than Brunson does today.. Ditto Steve Francis and many more.. KJ is on that level, and so is Ant.. So your idea that there are many guards on KJ's level is wrong.. KJ was a Lillard, Wall or Ant-level player, which means that American basketball has cratered from MJ to KJ...

This confirms conclusively that NBA players are worse today than prior eras, since the cratering of the best source of players (America) more than offsets the rise in international players...

Ant is actually about as good as JR Rider or even Doug West, but the rules allow him to carry, while the easy-scoring format inflates his numbers.. Ant's problem is that he flies by the seat of his pants and lacks fundamentals.. He certainly isn't an all-time floor general and leader like KJ - he's much closer to Rider than KJ... And this is the best America has to offer, which is pathetic.. The best of American hoops has declined from MJ to KJ.

[tpols]

KJ is superior to Jalen Brunson because KJ's athleticism would dominate more than Brunson does today.. Ditto Steve Francis and many more.. KJ is on that level, and so is Ant.. So your idea that there are many guards on KJ's level is wrong.. KJ was a Lillard, Wall or Ant-level player, which means that American basketball has cratered from MJ to KJ...

This confirms conclusively that NBA players are worse today than prior eras, since the cratering of the best source of players (America) more than offsets the rise in international players...

Ant is actually about as good as JR Rider or even Doug West, but the rules allow him to carry, while the easy-scoring format inflates his numbers.. Ant's problem is that he flies by the seat of his pants and lacks fundamentals.. He certainly isn't an all-time floor general and leader like KJ - he's much closer to Rider than KJ... And this is the best America has to offer, which is pathetic.. The best of American hoops has declined from MJ to KJ.

KJ, yes. You've lost the plot with Steve Francis though. The intelligence gap between him and Brunson is far too vast.

[Phoenix]

In order to make the 2025 WCF, Randle and Ant were equal-scoring partners in WCSF against the Warriors, while Randle carried Ant in assists and led in gamescore... Otoh, for KJ to beat Magic and make the WCF, he needed to be an all-time floor general and carry the playmaking, while having 6 points higher in gamescore than all teammates.



In the WCSF he 'led' the GmSc 20.5 to ANTs 20.3 :oldlol:. Carrying him in assists is extremely hyperbolic, 7.4 to 5.6 isn't carrying. Using your dumb lingo they were equal assist partners. If you want to stretch what 'equal' is, I don't see why I can't. ANT outscored Randle 26.8 to 22.6 and out-assisted him 6.2 to 4.4 against the Lakers ( same margin in assists you say Randle 'carried' against GS) with a higher GmSc ( 21.5 to 16.3, an actual tangible difference) and against the Thunder ANT outscored him 23 to 17.4, out-assisted him 4.6 to 3( again, same margin you say Randle 'carried' him in assists against GS) and out GmSc 15.7 to 12. For the playoffs, ANT outscored Randle 25.3 to 21.7 and out-assisted 5.5 to 4.9.

BTW, since you're now parroting my usage of GmSc, something you never use as a measure of anything, you concede that Magic's GmSc of 26.7 to KJ's 21.8 as well as outscoring him 30.2 to 22, out-assisting him 12.2 to 11.2, and ( barely) out-rebounding him 5.8 to 5.6 shows that Magic was across the board superior to KJ, proving that 'KJ beat Magic' is a false premise, the Suns beat the Lakers. This is further evidenced by the fact that KJ's next three teammates had higher GmSc with Hornacek 15.9, Mark West 4.1, Chambers 11.9 than Magic did with Worthy 11.3, Green 11.1 and Scott 9.9, as well as KJ's next two scoring partners being better than Magic's with Chambers 21.6 and Hornaceks 20.8, to Magic getting 21.2 from Worthy and a paltry 13.2 from Scott, a huge dropoff from Hornacek. Accordingly, you've conceded KJ's teammates superiority to Magics in this series with superior PPG and GmSc.

[3ba11]

In the WCSF he 'led' the GmSc 20.5 to ANTs 20.3 :oldlol:. Carrying him in assists is extremely hyperbolic, 7.4 to 5.6 isn't carrying. Using your dumb lingo they were equal assist partners. If you want to stretch what 'equal' is, I don't see why I can't. ANT outscored Randle 26.8 to 22.6 and out-assisted him 6.2 to 4.4 against the Lakers ( same margin in assists you say Randle 'carried' against GS) with a higher GmSc ( 21.5 to 16.3, an actual tangible difference) and against the Thunder ANT outscored him 23 to 17.4, out-assisted him 4.6 to 3( again, same margin you say Randle 'carried' him in assists against GS) and out GmSc 15.7 to 12. For the playoffs, ANT outscored Randle 25.3 to 21.7 and out-assisted 5.5 to 4.9.

BTW, since you're now parroting my usage of GmSc, something you never use as a measure of anything, you concede that Magic's GmSc of 26.7 to KJ's 21.8 as well as outscoring him 30.2 to 22, out-assisting him 12.2 to 11.2, and ( barely) out-rebounding him 5.8 to 5.6 shows that Magic was across the board superior to KJ, proving that 'KJ beat Magic' is a false premise, the Suns beat the Lakers. This is further evidenced by the fact that KJ's next three teammates had higher GmSc with Hornacek 15.9, Mark West 4.1, Chambers 11.9 than Magic did with Worthy 11.3, Green 11.1 and Scott 9.9, as well as KJ's next two scoring partners being better than Magic's with Chambers 21.6 and Hornaceks 20.8, to Magic getting 21.2 from Worthy and a paltry 13.2 from Scott, a huge dropoff from Hornacek. Accordingly, you've conceded KJ's teammates superiority to Magics in this series with superior PPG and GmSc.


Ant and KJ both needed equal-scoring partners to make the WCF, except KJ carried the assist and gamescore load.

So KJ did more to make the WCF, while being a superior passer, leader and equal or better scorer.. He also has better stats like PER, BPM, etc, while also having a legendary playoff poster over an all-timer like Hakeem... Ant doesn't.

Regardless, there's a legit debate between KJ and Ant, which means that American basketball has cratered from KJ to MJ... This confirms that NBA players are worse today than prior eras, since the cratering of the best source of players (America) more than offsets the rise in international players...

[Phoenix]

Ant and KJ both needed equal-scoring partners to make the WCF, except KJ carried the assist and gamescore load.

So KJ did more to make the WCF, while being a superior passer, leader and equal or better scorer.. He also has a legendary playoff poster over a legend like Hakeem, while Ant doesn't.

Regardless, there's a legit debate between KJ and Ant, which means that American basketball has cratered from KJ to MJ... This confirms that NBA players are worse today than prior eras, since the cratering of the best source of players (America) more than offsets the rise in international players...

Except Randle wasn't an equal scoring partner. You can repeat that 100 times and the stats won't morph to make that true. And ANT ultimately out-assisted Randle as well over the course of the playoffs while out-scoring him and having decisive GmSc edges in 2 of 3 series, and equal against GS( 20.5 to 20.3 is more equal than anything you're trying to push as equal).

ANT never played Hakeem, so why would KJ having a legendary playoff poster over him be a relevant talking point? KJ played great against the Rockets but lost to the better team, same as Magic did against the Suns. Difference being that Hakeem was the best player on the floor vs the Suns and led the Rockets to victory, while KJ was inferior to Magic and won because he had more help as evidenced both by teammate GmSc and by having two equal scoring partners, while Magic had to carry both the scoring and playmaking for the Lakers. If Magic and KJ swapped teammates, the Lakers would have swept.

[3ba11]

Except Randle wasn't an equal scoring partner. You can repeat that 100 times and the stats won't morph to make that true. And ANT ultimately out-assisted Randle as well over the course of the playoffs while out-scoring him and having decisive GmSc edges in 2 of 3 series, and equal against GS( 20.5 to 20.3 is more equal than anything you're trying to push as equal).

ANT never played Hakeem, so why would KJ having a legendary playoff poster over him be a relevant talking point? KJ played great against the Rockets but lost to the better team, same as Magic did against the Suns. Difference being that Hakeem was the best player on the floor vs the Suns and led the Rockets to victory, while KJ was inferior to Magic and won because he had more help as evidenced both by teammate GmSc and by having two equal scoring partners, while Magic had to carry both the scoring and playmaking for the Lakers. If Magic and KJ swapped teammates, the Lakers would have swept.


In order to make the WCF, Ant and KJ had to win 2nd Round series.

In those 2nd Round series, Ant and KJ both had equal-scoring partners, except KJ carried the gamescore and assist load, while Ant was led by teammates in both.

So there's no comparison - KJ did more to make the WCF, which includes beating MVP Magic.

In the playoffs overall, Ant and KJ both had 20 PPG teammates, but KJ was an all-time floor general that carried the assists, while Ant had elite defensive help (aka the DPOY and another all-defensive player).. KJ was simply a better passer, leader and equal or better scorer.

Since there's a legit debate between KJ and Ant, we can say that American basketball has cratered from MJ to KJ... This confirms that NBA players are worse today than prior eras, since the cratering of the best source of players (America) more than offsets the rise in international players...

[Phoenix]

In order to make the WCF, Ant and KJ had to win 2nd Round series.

In those 2nd Round series, Ant and KJ both had equal-scoring partners, except KJ carried the gamescore and assist load, while Ant was led by teammates in both.

So there's no comparison - KJ did more to make the WCF, which includes beating MVP Magic.

In the playoffs overall, Ant and KJ both had 20 PPG teammates, but KJ was an all-time floor general that carried the assists, while Ant had elite defensive help (aka the DPOY and another all-defensive player).. KJ was simply a better passer, leader and equal or better scorer.



In order to make the 2nd round, ANT and KJ had to win the first round.

In that first round series, ANT outscored, out rebounded and out-assisted Randle and carried the GmSc, while KJ was outscored by Tom Chambers and Eddie Johnson carried the GmSc.

So there's no comparison- ANT did more to make the 2nd round than KJ did in 1990, since he only had Randle as scoring help while KJ had Chambers, Hornacek and Eddie Johnson sharing the scoring burden, which includes beating the Lakers the next round in spite of KJ being destroyed by Magic mano a mano.

In the playoffs overall, ANT and KJ both had 20ppg teammates, but KJ had it easier with 'carrying' the assists load since he didn't have to concentrate as much on scoring with multiple equal scoring partners. The actual leader of the Suns was Tom Chambers, he was the season scoring leader (27ppg to KJs 22), playoff scoring leader(22.2 to KJs 21.3) and was on the MVP ladder at #8, and KJ......wasn't.

[3ba11]

In order to make the 2nd round, ANT and KJ had to win the first round.

In that first round series, ANT outscored, out rebounded and out-assisted Randle and carried the GmSc, while KJ was outscored by Tom Chambers and Eddie Johnson carried the GmSc.

So there's no comparison- ANT did more to make the 2nd round than KJ did in 1990, since he only had Randle as scoring help while KJ had Chambers, Hornacek and Eddie Johnson sharing the scoring burden, which includes beating the Lakers the next round in spite of KJ being destroyed by Magic mano a mano.

In the playoffs overall, ANT and KJ both had 20ppg teammates, but KJ had it easier with 'carrying' the assists load since he didn't have to concentrate as much on scoring with multiple equal scoring partners. The actual leader of the Suns was Tom Chambers, he was the season scoring leader (27ppg to KJs 22), playoff scoring leader(22.2 to KJs 21.3) and was on the MVP ladder at #8, and KJ......wasn't.


By debating this so vigorously instead of your normal smug one-liner that you feel solves the case, you've proven that Ant vs KJ is infact debatable.

But since you won't address the larger point that American basketball cratered from MJ to KJ (or thereabouts), I made a separate thread dedicated to your derail of debating Ant vs KJ at 23 years old (and how they both had 2 straight WCF runs at that age) .. You can see that thread here (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?521772-Back-to-Back-Runs-to-the-WCF-at-22-23-Years-Old-KJ-vs-ANT)

[AussieSteve]

In the early 90s, there were 27 NBA teams and less than 5% of the players were international

Today there are 30 teams and around 30% of players are international.

So the ~25% worst players in the NBA have been replaced by better international players.

That's why the best US players today don't look as good as the best players from the 90s.

[Phoenix]

By debating this so vigorously instead of your normal smug one-liner that you feel solves the case, you've proven that Ant vs KJ is infact debatable.

But since you won't address the larger point that American basketball cratered from MJ to KJ (or thereabouts), I made a separate thread dedicated to your derail of debating Ant vs KJ at 23 years old (and how they both had 2 straight WCF runs at that age) .. You can see that thread here (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?521772-Back-to-Back-Runs-to-the-WCF-at-22-23-Years-Old-KJ-vs-ANT)

My choice to actually engage you on this topic doesn't prove anything about ANT vs KJ. In fact, I really don't care about your opinion on ANT vs KJ and who you think is better( which I said earlier). Most of my response to you lies in this idea that 'KJ beat Magic' and I proved that 1) Magic outplayed KJ and 2) KJs teammates outplayed Magics which is why the Suns beat the Lakers, not 'KJ beat Magic'. To say KJ beat Magic infers that KJ outplayed Magic and that was the deciding factor in the series outcome, which is objectively false. As for my normal smug one-liners, you really don't deserve anything else, but it's on my terms if I decide to actually give you the time of day.

The number of great American players and their fundamentals has dropped. This feels like a widely understood talking point in basketball circles, so you're not talking about anything new under the sun. So it's not a matter of I won't address the larger point, I don't disagree with it so there was nothing for me to address.

BTW, thanks for dedicating a thread to me that nobody bothered to respond to yet:oldlol:. Not sure how I 'derailed' this thread when my talking points were addressing YOUR comments, but tumbleweeds blowing through your tedious threads always warms my heart.

[sdot_thadon]

In the early 90s, there were 27 NBA teams and less than 5% of the players were international

Today there are 30 teams and around 30% of players are international.

So the ~25% worst players in the NBA have been replaced by better international players.

That's why the best US players today don't look as good as the best players from the 90s.

You'd think this would be a common sense given for anyone that watches the game, but delusional lunatics gonna ride their dead horses.

[3ba11]

.
.
Back-to-Back Runs to the WCF at 22-23 Years Old - KJ vs ANT



Regular Season

89' and 90' KJ (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/johnske02.html#1989-1990-sum:advanced).......... 21.5 PER... 0.191 WS/48... 4.6 OBPM... 0.0 DBPM... 59.1 TS (53.7 league avg (https://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_stats_per_game.html))
24' and 25' ANT (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/e/edwaran01.html#2024-2025-sum:advanced)........ 19.9 PER... 0.135 WS/48... 3.6 OBPM... 0.2 DBPM... 58.5 TS (57.8 league avg (https://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_stats_per_game.html))


Playoffs

89' and 90' KJ (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/johnske02.html#1989-1990-sum:advanced_post).......... 21.4 PER... 0.169 WS/48... 5.2 OBPM... 0.6 DBPM... 58.2 TS (54.1 league avg (https://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_stats_per_game.html))
24' and 25' ANT (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/e/edwaran01.html#2024-2025-sum:advanced_post)........ 21.3 PER... 0.163 WS/48... 4.7 OBPM... 1.7 DBPM... 58.1 TS (56.6 league avg (https://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_stats_per_game.html))



CONCLUSION:

KJ was better than the best American player today (Ant), so American basketball has cratered from MJ to KJ... This confirms that today's NBA players are worse than prior eras, since the cratering of the best source of players (America) more than offsets the rise in international players...




In the early 90s, there were 27 NBA teams and less than 5% of the players were international

Today there are 30 teams and around 30% of players are international.

So the ~25% worst players in the NBA have been replaced by better international players.

That's why the best US players today don't look as good as the best players from the 90s.


Americans are still the majority in the NBA, so if they're much worse, than the NBA is much worse... It's pretty simple

The reduction of American players from MJ to KJ proves that today's players are worse than prior eras

[90sgoat]

It also seems the american players have gotten less athletic.

I mentioned Isaiah Rider, because he was 6'5'' 215lbs basically Ant sized, but he was a far superior dunker. The same with Vince Carter, Penny Hardaway, Tracy McGrady, etc.

Today you have Julius Randle, back then you had Shawn Kemp, LJ, Barkley, Mason, Karl Malone, Rodman etc, just athletic phenoms, that are just not there today. 40 year Lebron is still the top dog in athleticism at the forward position.

Imo, probably there was a lot more roiding back in the 90s. Almost all of the 90s stars look roided, which makes it more difficult to win.

Another thing is that the AAU and college system is no longer selecting for good dunkers and finishers around the rim. Almost all players today pass out of any resistance around the rim. Almost no players can do up and unders, reverse layups, dunk over people - not through them etc.

People joke about John Starks, but forget Kevin Johnson just slamming it on Hakeem. You almost never see that today and players just pass the ball out.

[ShawkFactory]

It also seems the american players have gotten less athletic.

I mentioned Isaiah Rider, because he was 6'5'' 215lbs basically Ant sized, but he was a far superior dunker. The same with Vince Carter, Penny Hardaway, Tracy McGrady, etc.

Today you have Julius Randle, back then you had Shawn Kemp, LJ, Barkley, Mason, Karl Malone, Rodman etc, just athletic phenoms, that are just not there today. 40 year Lebron is still the top dog in athleticism at the forward position.

Imo, probably there was a lot more roiding back in the 90s. Almost all of the 90s stars look roided, which makes it more difficult to win.

Another thing is that the AAU and college system is no longer selecting for good dunkers and finishers around the rim. Almost all players today pass out of any resistance around the rim. Almost no players can do up and unders, reverse layups, dunk over people - not through them etc.

People joke about John Starks, but forget Kevin Johnson just slamming it on Hakeem. You almost never see that today and players just pass the ball out.

Thompson brothers.

Obviously they're wings and not true forwards but still.

[3ba11]

It also seems the american players have gotten less athletic.

I mentioned Isaiah Rider, because he was 6'5'' 215lbs basically Ant sized, but he was a far superior dunker. The same with Vince Carter, Penny Hardaway, Tracy McGrady, etc.

Today you have Julius Randle, back then you had Shawn Kemp, LJ, Barkley, Mason, Karl Malone, Rodman etc, just athletic phenoms, that are just not there today. 40 year Lebron is still the top dog in athleticism at the forward position.

Imo, probably there was a lot more roiding back in the 90s. Almost all of the 90s stars look roided, which makes it more difficult to win.

Another thing is that the AAU and college system is no longer selecting for good dunkers and finishers around the rim. Almost all players today pass out of any resistance around the rim. Almost no players can do up and unders, reverse layups, dunk over people - not through them etc.

People joke about John Starks, but forget Kevin Johnson just slamming it on Hakeem. You almost never see that today and players just pass the ball out.


Excellent point regarding players passing when there's traffic and resistance... The spaced-out beginner format can always get good looks so players have learned to avoid all traffic.. Otoh, the tougher formats of previous eras forced players to develop superior instinct and passing to thread needles in unspaced environments.. This is why today's players struggle internationally - their PNR skillset lacks the broader hoops instinct and repertoire to excel in tougher formats with less spacing.

[90sgoat]

Excellent point regarding players passing when there's traffic and resistance... The spaced-out beginner format can always get good looks so players have learned to avoid all traffic.. Otoh, the tougher formats of previous eras forced players to develop superior instinct and passing to thread needles in unspaced environments.. This is why today's players struggle internationally - their PNR skillset lacks the broader hoops instinct and repertoire to excel in tougher formats with less spacing.

Yep, these players are lost if they can't see an open shooter at the 3 point line. They end up dribbling in, then dribbling out again. Even someone like Ant is most a straight line driver, doesn't really dunk on people and rarely does acrobatic finishes. The new generation just go for the foul if there's someone in the paint.

[AussieSteve]

.

Americans are still the majority in the NBA, so if they're much worse, than the NBA is much worse... It's pretty simple

The reduction of American players from MJ to KJ proves that today's players are worse than prior eras

Or it proves that a quarter of americans who made the league 30 years ago wouldn't make it today, because they would be kept out by superior international players. Ie. The league is much better today.

To argue against this is 100% driven by what you want to be true, not objective reality

[AussieSteve]

Thread cliffs for 3ball

It was MJ vs the USA, but LBJ vs the world.

Hence a solid case can be built that LBJs achievements are greater.

MJ faced a league equivalent to removing >80% of the current international players and replacing them with G-Leaguers.

Dirk? Gone.
Jokic? Gone.
Manu and Parker? Gone.

How many rings for LBJ?

[3ba11]

.
Back-to-Back Runs to the WCF at 22-23 Years Old - KJ vs ANT



Regular Season

89' and 90' KJ (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/johnske02.html#1989-1990-sum:advanced).......... 21.5 PER... 0.191 WS/48... 4.6 OBPM... 0.0 DBPM... 59.1 TS (53.7 league avg (https://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_stats_per_game.html))
24' and 25' ANT (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/e/edwaran01.html#2024-2025-sum:advanced)........ 19.9 PER... 0.135 WS/48... 3.6 OBPM... 0.2 DBPM... 58.5 TS (57.8 league avg (https://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_stats_per_game.html))


Playoffs

89' and 90' KJ (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/johnske02.html#1989-1990-sum:advanced_post).......... 21.4 PER... 0.169 WS/48... 5.2 OBPM... 0.6 DBPM... 58.2 TS (54.1 league avg (https://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_stats_per_game.html))
24' and 25' ANT (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/e/edwaran01.html#2024-2025-sum:advanced_post)........ 21.3 PER... 0.163 WS/48... 4.7 OBPM... 1.7 DBPM... 58.1 TS (56.6 league avg (https://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_stats_per_game.html))




Or it proves that a quarter of americans who made the league 30 years ago wouldn't make it today, because they would be kept out by superior international players. Ie. The league is much better today.

To argue against this is 100% driven by what you want to be true, not objective reality


KJ was better than the best American player today (Ant), so American basketball has cratered from MJ to KJ... This confirms that today's NBA players are worse than prior eras, since the cratering of the best source of players (America) more than offsets the rise in international players...

[AussieSteve]

.
Back-to-Back Runs to the WCF at 22-23 Years Old - KJ vs ANT



Regular Season

89' and 90' KJ (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/johnske02.html#1989-1990-sum:advanced).......... 21.5 PER... 0.191 WS/48... 4.6 OBPM... 0.0 DBPM... 59.1 TS (53.7 league avg (https://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_stats_per_game.html))
24' and 25' ANT (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/e/edwaran01.html#2024-2025-sum:advanced)........ 19.9 PER... 0.135 WS/48... 3.6 OBPM... 0.2 DBPM... 58.5 TS (57.8 league avg (https://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_stats_per_game.html))


Playoffs

89' and 90' KJ (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/johnske02.html#1989-1990-sum:advanced_post).......... 21.4 PER... 0.169 WS/48... 5.2 OBPM... 0.6 DBPM... 58.2 TS (54.1 league avg (https://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_stats_per_game.html))
24' and 25' ANT (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/e/edwaran01.html#2024-2025-sum:advanced_post)........ 21.3 PER... 0.163 WS/48... 4.7 OBPM... 1.7 DBPM... 58.1 TS (56.6 league avg (https://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_stats_per_game.html))






KJ was better than the best American player today (Ant), so American basketball has cratered from MJ to KJ... This confirms that today's NBA players are worse than prior eras, since the cratering of the best source of players (America) more than offsets the rise in international players...

I don't see the basis on which you can say KJ is better than Ant. Because he had better PER?

That's a nonsense argument. I'd have better PER than Ant if you put me in a league against middle school kids.

KJ played in an inferior league. A league equivalent to removing all of the international players from today's league and replacing them with G-Leaguers. In that league, Ant would have much better stats, yes?

[3ba11]

I don't see the basis on which you can say KJ is better than Ant. Because he had better PER?

That's a nonsense argument. I'd have better PER than Ant if you put me in a league against middle school kids.

KJ played in an inferior league. A league equivalent to removing all of the international players from today's league and replacing them with G-Leaguers. In that league, Ant would have much better stats, yes?


MJ would have a 50 PER in 1996 if the best American players like Shaq were replaced by Ant/KJ and lesser American players.. Meanwhile, Hakeem, Robinson and MJ > Jokic, Giannis, SGA... So previous eras had better players because American talent was THAT great (better than everyone today) - that's how much American basketball has cratered.

[AussieSteve]

MJ would have a 50 PER in 1996 if the best American players like Shaq were replaced by Ant/KJ and lesser American players.. Meanwhile, Hakeem, Robinson and MJ > Jokic, Giannis, SGA... So previous eras had better players because American talent was THAT great (better than everyone today) - that's how much American basketball has cratered.

But why were American players better back then. Because their stats were better? Because they won more?

If that's the case, the obvious reason why they had better stats and won more is because the competition wasn't as strong.

If you removed all all the international players over the last 20 years and replaced them with G-Leaguers then lebron would have better stats and more championships. Using your logic, that would make him better. But it wouldn't, it would just have been that the competition was worse. Get it?

[sdot_thadon]

But why were American players better back then. Because their stats were better? Because they won more?

If that's the case, the obvious reason why they had better stats and won more is because the competition wasn't as strong.

If you removed all all the international players over the last 20 years and replaced them with G-Leaguers then lebron would have better stats and more championships. Using your logic, that would make him better. But it wouldn't, it would just have been that the competition was worse. Get it?

You gotta replace them with some grocery baggers too.....

[3ba11]

But why were American players better back then. Because their stats were better? Because they won more?

If that's the case, the obvious reason why they had better stats and won more is because the competition wasn't as strong.

If you removed all all the international players over the last 20 years and replaced them with G-Leaguers then lebron would have better stats and more championships. Using your logic, that would make him better. But it wouldn't, it would just have been that the competition was worse. Get it?


Players were better back then because anyone can see that Hakeem and Shaq dominated more than Jokic and were better.

Anyone can see that Duncan's fundamentals and dominance is superior to the rudimentary and non-closer Giannis..

And on and on... Anyone can see that MJ destroys Ant and that KJ is actually more comparable - this is true because anyone can determine that upsetting Magic, and making the Finals with Barkley, or having 2 dominant series vs the champion Rockets is equal or better than Ant's caliber thus far.. These things are intuitive.. So again, the cratering of the best source of hoops talent (America), which is still the current majority of the league, confirms that today's NBA players are worse than prior eras.