Ok this is going viral right now. Shaq gives his top 10 players of all time.

[Im so nba'd out]

https://youtube.com/shorts/Ohzcaw-MlLQ?si=FOxUlrsAp5kfzj7R

1 MJ
2 Kobe (he's really listing himself at #2.)
3 LeBron
4 Magic
5 Bill Russell
6 Wilt
7 Bird
8 Hakeem
9 Tim Duncan
10 Dr J


What is yours?

Mines

1. MJ
2. Magic
3. Kareem
4. LeBron
5. Wilt
6.Bird
7.Hakeem
8.Shaq
9.Duncan
10. Curry

[Nowoco]

Ex-players all have agendas so I don't care what their top 10s are.

Kobe 2nd pretty much sums it up.

[Meticode]

https://youtube.com/shorts/Ohzcaw-MlLQ?si=FOxUlrsAp5kfzj7R

1 MJ
2 Kobe (he's really listing himself at #2.)
3 LeBron
4 Magic
5 Bill Russell
6 Wilt
7 Bird
8 Hakeem
9 Tim Duncan
10 Dr J


What is yours?

Mines

1. MJ
2. Magic
3. Kareem
4. LeBron
5. Wilt
6.Bird
7.Hakeem
8.Shaq
9.Duncan
10. Curry

This is why I don't care about people's lists. The fact Shaq has Kobe at #2 and then you don't have Kobe in the Top 10 at all is all the reason why these lists are stupid.

[warriorfan]

I actually like his list. The kobe is the controversial one. But if you throw out the kobe or drop him down a little then it seems pretty non hot take-ish. I personally don’t mind Kobe being very high. (Disclaimer not trying to argue with weirdos about it so don’t @ me)

[Baller234]

Kobe at #2 is not a hot take.

Leaving off Alcindor, now that's a hot take.

[1987_Lakers]

Dude left off Kareem. If I had to guess Kareem probably said something recently that hurt his feelings, we all know how petty Shaq is.

[Phoenix]

This is why I don't care about people's lists. The fact Shaq has Kobe at #2 and then you don't have Kobe in the Top 10 at all is all the reason why these lists are stupid.

Problem with the top 10 is there's like 15 guys who credibly are top 10 level players. That list above that doesn't have Kobe on it, when you look at the names picked it's kind of like, well Kobe is a legit top 10 pick but who do you take off? I think most people would think Curry is the easiest name to remove, but I'm not entirely sure about that either. Heck, Bill Russell isn't on that list either. I think Hakeem is one of the ten best players I've seen play, but his career gets a major boost from a very condensed peak between 1993 and 1995 when he got all of his major legacy accolades. Like, Curry's first and last championships as the best player are 7 years apart. That's pretty good as far as sustained greatness at that level. I just don't know how to judge these things anymore. The top 11-20 is even harder because there's an even bigger pool of 'not quite GOATs'. While also subjective, I think it's easier to pool players into the same tiers of greatness than it is trying to rank.

[Phoenix]

Dude left off Kareem. If I had to guess Kareem probably said something recently that hurt his feelings, we all know how petty Shaq is.

Shit I just realized that. :oldlol::facepalm

[warriorfan]

Kobe at #2 is not a hot take.

Leaving off Alcindor, now that's a hot take.

I didn’t even notice that tbh but yeah that is.

I think people can make some pretty decent player assassinations off of Kareem’s career though when looked under a certain context (not saying you can’t do this to all players but kareem is not immune.)

[Baller234]

I didn’t even notice that tbh but yeah that is.

I think people can make some pretty decent player assassinations off of Kareem’s career though when looked under a certain context (not saying you can’t do this to all players but kareem is not immune.)

No I agree. There are flaws on Lew's professional resume. I would probably have him top 10 still but I won't get emotional if someone puts him just outside of it.

I also think it's high time we have a discussion about drawing a line in the GOAT debate when it comes to eras. The pre-merger era and post-merger era should really be their own thing. Having to think about who's better between Steph Curry and Bill Russell is counter productive. Neither would be as great if they played in each other's era.

[Wally450]

He's got most of the correct people in there besides himself and KAJ.

[1987_Lakers]

No I agree. There are flaws on Lew's professional resume. I would probably have him top 10 still but I won't get emotional if someone puts him just outside of it.

Leaving Kareem off the top 10 is insane.

Even leaving him out of the top 5 is questionable.

[SouBeachTalents]

No I agree. There are flaws on Lew's professional resume. I would probably have him top 10 still but I won't get emotional if someone puts him just outside of it.

I also think it's high time we have a discussion about drawing a line in the GOAT debate when it comes to eras. The pre-merger era and post-merger era should really be their own thing. Having to think about who's better between Steph Curry and Bill Russell is counter productive. Neither would be as great if they played in each other's era.
These lists are subjective, but there's genuinely no argument you could make that would justifiably leave Kareem outside the top 10. His resume and production are simply undeniable.

[Baller234]

These lists are subjective, but there's genuinely no argument you could make that would justifiably leave Kareem outside the top 10. His resume and production are simply undeniable.

Magic was the leader of the Showtime Lakers.

[Baller234]

Leaving Kareem off the top 10 is insane.

Even leaving him out of the top 5 is questionable.

I will have you know that growing up as a young kid in the early 90's, nobody was saying this.

Lew was acknowledged as an all time great upon his retirement but it was not unanimous that he was the greatest ever. The names being tossed around were usually Wilt and Russell, with the edge going to Wilt I would say.

[GOBB]

I actually like his list. The kobe is the controversial one. But if you throw out the kobe or drop him down a little then it seems pretty non hot take-ish. I personally don’t mind Kobe being very high. (Disclaimer not trying to argue with weirdos about it so don’t @ me)

Yes you clearly need glasses. The fact you think the only controversial ranking was Kobe says it all. I blame you going around being a d*ckhead posting one liners that are cringe as the reasoning honestly. If you spent more time actually engaging in good basketball discussion more often? You’d look less of a fool. But hey man don’t let me interrupt you into doing what you do best. Have at it…

[GOBB]

People still listen Shaq? Respect his legacy. Respect what he’s done for people. Bout it.

[Phoenix]

I will have you know that growing up as a young kid in the early 90's, nobody was saying this.

Lew was acknowledged as an all time great upon his retirement but it was not unanimous that he was the greatest ever. The names being tossed around were usually Wilt and Russell, with the edge going to Wilt I would say.

I was a teenager by the 90s and Kareem was definitely part of that conversation. People didn't really gravitate towards him because of his style, personality and whanot, but just a general 'who are the greatest players ever?' barbershop debate? The names I usually heard were Kareem, MJ and Wilt, then by 93 and the 3peat it had shifted to MJ. I rarely heard Bill Russells name mentioned much, strangely enough.

[Hey Yo]

Magic was the leader of the Showtime Lakers.

He ran showtime but Cap was still Cap until 1987.

[Baller234]

I was a teenager by the 90s and Kareem was definitely part of that conversation. People didn't really gravitate towards him because of his style, personality and whanot, but just a general 'who are the greatest players ever?' barbershop debate? The names I usually heard were Kareem, MJ and Wilt, then by 93 and the 3peat it had shifted to MJ. I rarely heard Bill Russells name mentioned much, strangely enough.

Okay but you agree Wilt usually had the edge in those conversations, and now miraculously he's nowhere to be found on anyone's list.

I'm struggling to remember when Lew surpassed Wilt definitively in those conversations because it definitely wasn't the case when he retired or throughout the 90's. And sorry but if you ask me there's not a strong case for him over Russell either.

So I don't know why all of a sudden people act like he has a guaranteed spot on Mt. Rushmore.

[SouBeachTalents]

He ran showtime but Cap was still Cap until 1987.
He was still close to peak form until around '81 or so. After that, he was still elite for another 5 or so years. It was really '87 when he dropped off from All-NBA caliber. But imo he wasn't truly Kareem after those first 2 years they played together.

[Baller234]

He ran showtime but Cap was still Cap until 1987.

Okay great but like you said Magic ran the show. Without Magic it doesn't work. So if any sole player has to get the lion's share of the credit for the success of the Lakers, it's him.

I don't know how anyone could put him ahead of Magic off the strength of that alone. It's not like he had a fistful of jewelry before that.

Overall basketball career fine Alcindor might have a case because he's the best college player ever, but pros? His career was looking shaky before Earvin.

[SouBeachTalents]

Okay great but like you said Magic ran the show. Without Magic it doesn't work. So if any sole player has to get the lion's share of the credit for the success of the Lakers, it's him.

I don't know how anyone could put him ahead of Magic off the strength of that alone. It's not like he had a fistful of jewelry before that.

Overall basketball career fine Alcindor might have a case because he's the best college player ever, but pros? His career was looking shaky before Earvin.
Being a 5x MVP & champion before the age of 30 is having a shaky career now :lol By that standard literally every player in history minus 5-6 guys would be considered having a shaky career.

[GOBB]

I will have you know that growing up as a young kid in the early 90's, nobody was saying this.

Lew was acknowledged as an all time great upon his retirement but it was not unanimous that he was the greatest ever. The names being tossed around were usually Wilt and Russell, with the edge going to Wilt I would say.

Russell and Wilt were only mentioned by the people their age. Kareem surpassed them when people recognized he won and dominated at every level. As years pass on guys like Wilt and Russell are often left out as their generation of fans started to die off. As a teen you only listed wilt and Russell because you were told by older folks why they should be on such a top 10 list. You never watched either play back then. Your “social media” was word of mouth from people who did in fact watch them play. And thus like many you just adopt the fact hey they are top 10 ever. The comparable thing would be MJ. And how people who grew up along his time period will never concede to him not being the goat. The folks who challenge this are the fans who grew up on Lebron. I left out Kobe because the fan bases are intertwined to an extent. Which also is why Kobe over Lebron is prevalent in top 10 lists from folks who grew up with Kobe.

I have Wilt in my top 4 (4th) off the simple fact he changed the rules to the game. And dominated like no other. While I didn’t watch him play/or the league for that matter when he played (eye test). He's the only player I didn’t see that’s on my top 10 list.

[Phoenix]

Okay but you agree Wilt usually had the edge in those conversations, and now miraculously he's nowhere to be found on anyone's list.

I'm struggling to remember when Lew surpassed Wilt definitively in those conversations because it definitely wasn't the case when he retired or throughout the 90's. And sorry but if you ask me there's not a strong case for him over Russell either.

So I don't know why all of a sudden people act like he has a guaranteed spot on Mt. Rushmore.

I feel like Jordan's name became more prominent in that conversation after the 92 title. I remember the whispers starting in 1990 in the media, maybe even 89, before he had won anything which in retrospect was prisoner of the moment but I understand the tour de force that 80s MJ.

But Kareem's name came up plenty, Wilt was certainly far more prominent than he is now though, for sure. I feel like as time went along the next generation came along and started becoming more critical of Wilt, the same way you have an influx of people being more critical of MJ nowadays.

[Baller234]

Being a 5x MVP & champion before the age of 30 is having a shaky career now :lol By that standard literally every player in history minus 5-6 guys would be considered having a shaky career.

When I said "shaky" I was referring to his resume in terms of all time goat discussion. He won half those MVP's in a diluted league where half the talent was over in the ABA.

If he retires before 1980 with all those MVP's but just a single championship he won early in his career playing with Oscar, his career would not be viewed in anywhere near the same light.

[Nowoco]

I agree that Wilt's name was always around in the 90s. Rarely ever nowadays. The reasons are obvious though. You have to remember that players pre-1970s are based on legend rather than footage. What little footage there is isnt going to be sought by people these days. Wilt's 100 point game sums it up. Incredible achievement, likely to never to be equalled but there isnt footage of it so who really cares? It may as well be a fairytale. It's as relevant as something that happened 200 years ago. Same for Bill Russell. All anyone ever really says is "11 rings in 13 years". If Russell had two rings like Wilt, you would hear his name about as much as Sam Jones'. As I said, players built off legend.

So whenever anyone gives their top 10s, they shoehorn in either Wilt or Russell (sometimes both) somewhere between 5-10 because they feel they have to. Not based on anything they have seen. If Russell didnt have 11 rings, he wouldnt even make top 25s. How many players in anyone's top 25 averaged 15ppg on 44% shooting, at center?

Quite frankly, top 10s should be done from 1970 onwards. Draw a line under the dinosaur era that no-one's seen and no-one really cares about.

[Baller234]

I feel like Jordan's name became more prominent in that conversation after the 92 title. I remember the whispers starting in 1990 in the media, maybe even 89, before he had won anything which in retrospect was prisoner of the moment but I understand the tour de force that 80s MJ.

But Kareem's name came up plenty, Wilt was certainly far more prominent than he is now though, for sure. I feel like as time went along the next generation came along and started becoming more critical of Wilt, the same way you have an influx of people being more critical of MJ nowadays.

Time reveals context.

Wilt was highly skilled but his 'dominance' stemmed mostly from his physical advantages. We've seen plenty of great big men since then and none of them have come close to dominating on the same level, so fans began to doubt whether Wilt was truly as great as he was made out to be or if he was just way ahead of his time. MJ was a superior athlete than most but he was average height and dominated mostly on the strength of his skill and creativity, hence his method of dominance was deemed more impressive.

As for younger fans being more critical of MJ, I don't know what exactly there is to be critical of because his game was practically flawless and we haven't seen a single player since who measures up when it comes to scoring in isolation. The eye test alone still says MJ is better than all of the guys that came after him.

[jayfan]

I will have you know that growing up as a young kid in the early 90's, nobody was saying this.

Lew was acknowledged as an all time great upon his retirement but it was not unanimous that he was the greatest ever. The names being tossed around were usually Wilt and Russell, with the edge going to Wilt I would say.

The statement you quoted said KAJ is undeniably top 10.

You're saying no one was saying that in the early 90's? Seriously?

I don't know what country you grew up in, but here in the US, at that time, KAJ was the player most associated with the goat argument. A question about him being top 10 would have been (and still is) like questioning whether water is wet.

[warriorfan]

Yes you clearly need glasses. The fact you think the only controversial ranking was Kobe says it all. I blame you going around being a d*ckhead posting one liners that are cringe as the reasoning honestly. If you spent more time actually engaging in good basketball discussion more often? You’d look less of a fool. But hey man don’t let me interrupt you into doing what you do best. Have at it…

Go away.

[3ba11]

These lists are subjective, but there's genuinely no argument you could make that would justifiably leave Kareem outside the top 10. His resume and production are simply undeniable.


Titles is all that matters when we talk about resume.. it's all about titles and performance... Media awards and "resume" mean nothing. College certainly means nothing


That said, I have Kareem #4 based on titles and performance

[SouBeachTalents]

Titles is all that matters when we talk about resume.. it's all about titles and performance... Media awards and "resume" mean nothing. College certainly means nothing


That said, I have Kareem #4 based on titles and performance
Titles are all that matter to casual fans who can't judge players without relying on team results.

[GOBB]

Go away.

Right on cue

[GOBB]

30 years from now Kareem won’t be on a top 10 list. And that will be the norm. You can cry in heaven about it too. Maybe God will listen.


For Shaq tho? Literally no excuse for not having him top 10

[90sgoat]

Thats actually a solid list, so I didn't notice he left of Kareem lol. Definitely has to be a beef there.

If you swap Lebron and Dr. J and substitute Kareem for Dr. J, then it's pretty much a good list.

[ImKobe]

https://youtube.com/shorts/Ohzcaw-MlLQ?si=FOxUlrsAp5kfzj7R

1 MJ
2 Kobe (he's really listing himself at #2.)
3 LeBron
4 Magic
5 Bill Russell
6 Wilt
7 Bird
8 Hakeem
9 Tim Duncan
10 Dr J




One of the better lists, although Bran is ranked too high.

Bolded is just cope by the OP. Shaq has given Kobe props for the longest and knows he owes most of his success to him. He even said it when they won the title in 2001 that KB was the best player in the world.

[90sgoat]

I was a teenager by the 90s and Kareem was definitely part of that conversation. People didn't really gravitate towards him because of his style, personality and whanot, but just a general 'who are the greatest players ever?' barbershop debate? The names I usually heard were Kareem, MJ and Wilt, then by 93 and the 3peat it had shifted to MJ. I rarely heard Bill Russells name mentioned much, strangely enough.

I never really heard Kareem mentioned in Europe in the early 90s. Everyone knew MJ and Magic, people also knew Bird. I would say in the early 90s among basketball fans in Europe, those 3 were considered the GOATs.

[Phoenix]

Thats actually a solid list, so I didn't notice he left of Kareem lol. Definitely has to be a beef there.

If you swap Lebron and Dr. J and substitute Kareem for Dr. J, then it's pretty much a good list.

Outside of omitting Kareem and himself and including Dr.J( who Shaq is on record as being his childhood idol), all the names on that list are pretty much on every ones list, the order may differ but generally those are the players people recognize as the best of the best.

[90sgoat]

Outside of omitting Kareem and himself and including Dr.J( who Shaq is on record as being his childhood idol), all the names on that list are pretty much on every ones list, the order may differ but generally those are the players people recognize as the best of the best.

Yep, it's also fine if someone wants to include Dr. J in the top 10 rankings don't have to be stats and rings only. Dr. J was a huge icon and ambassador for basketball and both won titles and played a beautiful game while being a role model, so in terms of his impact, definitely top 10. Shaq also included Bird fairly high, I've seen Bird ranked lower, I'd put Bird in the top 5 for sure for similar reasons, impact, style of play.

[90sgoat]

Okay but you agree Wilt usually had the edge in those conversations, and now miraculously he's nowhere to be found on anyone's list.

I'm struggling to remember when Lew surpassed Wilt definitively in those conversations because it definitely wasn't the case when he retired or throughout the 90's. And sorry but if you ask me there's not a strong case for him over Russell either.

So I don't know why all of a sudden people act like he has a guaranteed spot on Mt. Rushmore.

I think Kareem really only became a big thing once Lebron began the focus on stats and people realized that he had scored so much more than anyone.

Other than that, you can definitely make the case that Kareem was more of a Karl Malone type of player. He wasn't a dominant champion like others on the top 10 list. Duncan has a more impressive resume as the main option than Kareem, the same with Shaq. Kareem had the skyhook, Malone had the midrange jumper.

[ShawkFactory]

I think Kareem really only became a big thing once Lebron began the focus on stats and people realized that he had scored so much more than anyone.

Other than that, you can definitely make the case that Kareem was more of a Karl Malone type of player. He wasn't a dominant champion like others on the top 10 list. Duncan has a more impressive resume as the main option than Kareem, the same with Shaq. Kareem had the skyhook, Malone had the midrange jumper.

Well that’s where it all becomes circumstantial. I wasn’t around so can’t say this for sure, I’m pretty sure Kareem was accepted as the best individual player in the league for the better part of a decade, which VERY few can say.

Before the Showtime era did he have an attitude problem and was he typically just out there for himself? You could make that argument but again, people are often a product of their environment. I think it’s far more likely that he was pissed off at the construction of the team and direction of the organization (and acted accordingly) more so than him just not being a winner. If he’s with a great org during that period that focused on the right things maybe things are different there.

[ShawkFactory]

I think Kareem really only became a big thing once Lebron began the focus on stats and people realized that he had scored so much more than anyone.

Other than that, you can definitely make the case that Kareem was more of a Karl Malone type of player. He wasn't a dominant champion like others on the top 10 list. Duncan has a more impressive resume as the main option than Kareem, the same with Shaq. Kareem had the skyhook, Malone had the midrange jumper.

Well that’s where it all becomes circumstantial. I wasn’t around so can’t say this for sure, I’m pretty sure Kareem was accepted as the best individual player in the league for the better part of a decade, which VERY few can say.

Before the Showtime era did he have an attitude problem and was he typically just out there for himself? You could make that argument but again, people are often a product of their environment. I think it’s far more likely that he was pissed off at the construction of the team and direction of the organization (and acted accordingly) more so than him just not being a winner. If he’s with a great org during that period that focused on the right things maybe things are different there.

[Nowoco]

The problem with Kareem is that he played on the Showtime Lakers. Magic was the face of the team, the orchestrator, the big smile, the personality. Everyone loved him. Kareem was aloof, moody, uncharismatic and although his game was incredibly effective, it was one dimensional and not fun to watch. No-one wanted to be Kareem, everyone wanted to be Magic. There's a reason no-one after him used the Skyhook.

That said people are trippin if they think Kareem wasn't in the GOAT convo in the 90s, he absolutely was. But you also have to remember there wasn't much GOAT talk in the 90s. People didnt care about that then. There wasn't a bunch of talking heads on TV everyday and douchebags on internet forums discussing it 24/7. But no doubt Wilt's name came up before Kareem's when I was growing up in the 90s and that was in LA!

[90sgoat]

The first time I've managed to find newspapers talk about the GOAT was from 1992 with MJ and then the Dream Team made basketball into a huge global success so people began caring more about legacy. I don't watch baseball but people still seem to associate Babe Ruth with the best ever or Wayne Gretzsky, but part of that is also that those sports peaked when they played.

Basketball wasn't as big when Kareem played and hasn't really been huge since MJ retired in the same way, so GOAT becomes more something with numbers and statistics.

It's like saying that Taylor Swift is the GOAT of pop, she probably sold more than Beatles and Michael Jackson, but she isn't anywhere near those two in impact on popular culture.

[GOBB]

The problem with Kareem is that he played on the Showtime Lakers. Magic was the face of the team, the orchestrator, the big smile, the personality. Everyone loved him. Kareem was aloof, moody, uncharismatic and although his game was incredibly effective, it was one dimensional and not fun to watch. No-one wanted to be Kareem, everyone wanted to be Magic. There's a reason no-one after him used the Skyhook.

That said people are trippin if they think Kareem wasn't in the GOAT convo in the 90s, he absolutely was. But you also have to remember there wasn't much GOAT talk in the 90s. People didnt care about that then. There wasn't a bunch of talking heads on TV everyday and douchebags on internet forums discussing it 24/7. But no doubt Wilt's name came up before Kareem's when I was growing up in the 90s and that was in LA!

You do realize his career started before LA right?

[GOBB]

I think Kareem really only became a big thing once Lebron began the focus on stats and people realized that he had scored so much more than anyone.

Other than that, you can definitely make the case that Kareem was more of a Karl Malone type of player. He wasn't a dominant champion like others on the top 10 list. Duncan has a more impressive resume as the main option than Kareem, the same with Shaq. Kareem had the skyhook, Malone had the midrange jumper.

You have bad takes when it comes to Kareem. I wish you would sit this one out, respectfully.

[Nowoco]

You do realize his career started before LA right?

No I wasnt aware of that! Thanks for educating me :coleman:

Right but who was watching? Most games werent even shot, let alone aired. The 1980s NBA boom had nothing to do with Kareem. It was in its lowest ebb for most of his prime.

[GOBB]

No I wasnt aware of that! Thanks for educating me :coleman:

Right but who was watching? Most games werent even shot, let alone aired. The 1980s NBA boom had nothing to do with Kareem. It was in its lowest ebb for most of his prime.

Your posts just keep reading like it started and ended with the Lakers. And his career prior was legendary but hey let’s leave that out. No one watched it. League was weak. Didn’t happen. Got it. Carry on…

[Nowoco]

Your posts just keep reading like it started and ended with the Lakers. And his career prior was legendary but hey let’s leave that out. No one watched it. League was weak. Didn’t happen. Got it. Carry on…

No-one has said any of that. We were talking about why Kareem wasnt the considered the runaway GOAT prior to MJ and gave reasons why that was the case.

[GOBB]

No-one has said any of that. We were talking about why Kareem wasnt the considered the runaway GOAT prior to MJ and gave reasons why that was the case.

Roger that

[John8204]

It's not a bad list...

1. MJ
2. Lebron
3. Wilt
4. Bird
5. KAJ
6. Magic
7. Bill
8. Mikan
9. Kobe
10. Oscar

As for when Kareem passed Wilt...it was really when Wilt died. Basketball is very politic based and the living guys gets the edge over the dead guys in the media. Wilt was always better than KAJ

[Baller234]

I keep seeing people openly acknowledge that Magic was the heart and soul of the Lakers so how could Lew possibly be ranked ahead of him?? How is it not even up for debate??

Magic has a case over him. Wilt has a case over him. Russell DEFINITELY has a case over him. I would argue others do as well, so I really don't know when Lew became this untouchable shoe-in on the hoops Mt. Rushmore.

[John8204]

I keep seeing people openly acknowledge that Magic was the heart and soul of the Lakers so how could Lew possibly be ranked ahead of him?? How is it not even up for debate??

Magic has a case over him. Wilt has a case over him. Russell DEFINITELY has a case over him. I would argue others do as well, so I really don't know when Lew became this untouchable shoe-in on the hoops Mt. Rushmore.

He made the division and conference finals four times with the Bucks.

[90sgoat]

I keep seeing people openly acknowledge that Magic was the heart and soul of the Lakers so how could Lew possibly be ranked ahead of him?? How is it not even up for debate??

Magic has a case over him. Wilt has a case over him. Russell DEFINITELY has a case over him. I would argue others do as well, so I really don't know when Lew became this untouchable shoe-in on the hoops Mt. Rushmore.

Basketball is a team sport so it's a fair argument.

Doesn't look as if Kareem was a leader or good teammate.

If it was the GOAT hookshot competition obviously he takes it.

[gengiskhan]

Kobe aint remotely close to being in Top 10 All Time...

1.GOAT
2.Kareem
3.Wilt
4.Magic
5.Bird
6.Hakeem
7.Russell
8.Shaq
9.Moses
10.LBJ
11.Dr J
12.Duncan
13.Oscar
14.Kobe

[Chick Stern]

Kobe aint remotely close to being in Top 10 All Time...

1.GOAT
2.Kareem
3.Wilt
4.Magic
5.Bird
6.Hakeem
7.Russell
8.Shaq
9.Moses
10.LBJ
11.Dr J
12.Duncan
13.Oscar
14.Kobe

Jordan swingers are so insecure

[guy]

I keep seeing people openly acknowledge that Magic was the heart and soul of the Lakers so how could Lew possibly be ranked ahead of him?? How is it not even up for debate??

Magic has a case over him. Wilt has a case over him. Russell DEFINITELY has a case over him. I would argue others do as well, so I really don't know when Lew became this untouchable shoe-in on the hoops Mt. Rushmore.

https://www.espn.com/sportscentury/athletes.html

I don’t know if people remember sportscentury which ESPN was doing at the turn of last century but they basically ranked all the athletes from the 1900s. People may not remember this, but it was a big deal at the time. And these lists weren’t just running rampant like they are today with the increased media. Jordan came in no. 1 overall and for NBA stars alone, he was followed by Wilt, Russell, Magic and then Kareem in that order. So Kareem was basically considered 5th at that point. None of those players have played since and Kareem’s pretty much jumped all of them as a consensus except for Jordan and even with Jordan there’s way more lists that put him above or on the level of Jordan.

His standing has absolutely increased over time, and maybe rightly so, that’s debatable either way. I’m assuming it is this new focus on longevity that has been brought on cause of LeBron and also some people trying to lower the standing of Jordan.

[Im Still Ballin]

It's not a bad list...

1. MJ
2. Lebron
3. Wilt
4. Bird
5. KAJ
6. Magic
7. Bill
8. Mikan
9. Kobe
10. Oscar

As for when Kareem passed Wilt...it was really when Wilt died. Basketball is very politic based and the living guys gets the edge over the dead guys in the media. Wilt was always better than KAJ

Respect for including Mikan. Probably the most disrespected all-time great. He gets marked down for era reasons when he played against Pettit, Schayes, Arizin, and a number of guys who played in the late '40s and early '50s into the '60s. Retired the season before Bill Russell came into the league.

I'm of the belief he'd be great in any era. Something like a heavier, stronger, more physical bully-ball offensively-slanted Tim Duncan. Or a more athletic, less skilled Jokic who'd draw way more fouls. A franchise centerpiece.

[GOBB]

Since when did people have Dr J in the top 10 or just outside of it? Lol

[Baller234]

Since when did people have Dr J in the top 10 or just outside of it? Lol

I don't think he's top 10 but I won't get emotional if someone puts him in.

2x ABA champ
3x ABA MVP (back to back to back)
1x NBA champ
1x NBA MVP
5x All-NBA 1st team

Arguably the best player of the 70's.

Won more and was more dominant than Lew in a shorter timespan.

Revolutionized the game.

[GOBB]

I don't think he's top 10 but I won't get emotional if someone puts him in.

2x ABA champ
3x ABA MVP (back to back to back)
1x NBA champ
1x NBA MVP
5x All-NBA 1st team

Arguably the best player of the 70's.

Won more and was more dominant than Lew in a shorter timespan.

Revolutionized the game.

Or people are just full of it. I think I’ll go with that instead

[Im so nba'd out]

One of the better lists, although Bran is ranked too high.

Bolded is just cope by the OP. Shaq has given Kobe props for the longest and knows he owes most of his success to him. He even said it when they won the title in 2001 that KB was the best player in the world.

I dont have anything against kobe. I am one of the few people who acknowledge that kobe carried them through the brutal west every year and after being worn down from that shaq would feast vs the weak ass east and steal finals mvp every time.

I have always stated that kobe and shaq were a Batman and Superman partnership not a batman and robin duo like Jordan/Pippen. Im not "coping" with anything.



Kobe and Shaq were the two best players in the league. This was not Jordan and a top 10 player in pippen. It was Curry and LeBron on the same team in the mid 2010's esque.

[gengiskhan]

Kobe will never be Top 10.
LBJ will never be Top 5. Barely Top 10. at #10.
Dr J will always be ahead of Kobe.

guy who revolutionizes the game and inspires GOAT will aleady be ahead of cheap copycat, shot jocker, a one trick pony.

[gengiskhan]

Jordan swingers are so insecure

whatever strokes your peepee.

Kobe will never be ahead of Dr J, guy who literally revolutionized the sport.
Kobe is Top 15. thats about it. He aint winning anything if he wasn't a LAL and shaq's little brother.

Go check out Moses's dominance. leagues ahead of Kobe's and LBJs.

3 x NBA Season MVP
1 x NBA Finals MVP (against Kareem).
6 x NBA Rebounding Champion

If Moses did not bumb into Bird's CELTICS and Magic's LAL, he would've had 3 FMVPs and 4 MVPs easily.

Compare to Moses, what has Kobe accomplished. nothing. a consolation MVP for 20 yrs of shot jocking.

[Phoenix]

Since when did people have Dr J in the top 10 or just outside of it? Lol

At some point he would have been. A GOAT 10 conversation in like 1990 would have probably been ( in no order) Wilt, Russell, Kareem, Dr. J, Oscar West, Magic, Bird, Moses and I'm guessing people would be advocating for MJ by then( since he first started getting GOAT talk around 89 before he had won anything). Mikan may have been in that discussion too. As time has gone on, new people entered that conversation ( Shaq, Duncan, Hakeem, Kobe) and certain players( like the aforementioned Mikan) are considered relics and harder to rank or get pushed out( Dr. J, Oscar West, Moses).

[GOBB]

At some point he would have been. A GOAT 10 conversation in like 1990 would have probably been ( in no order) Wilt, Russell, Kareem, Dr. J, Oscar West, Magic, Bird, Moses and I'm guessing people would be advocating for MJ by then( since he first started getting GOAT talk around 89 before he had won anything). Mikan may have been in that discussion too. As time has gone on, new people entered that conversation ( Shaq, Duncan, Hakeem, Kobe) and certain players( like the aforementioned Mikan) are considered relics and harder to rank or get pushed out( Dr. J, Oscar West, Moses).

Oh most definitely he was in the top 10 back then. His name rang bells here at the Spectrum.

[tontoz]

Kareem was MVP 3 times before going to LA. He won MVP his first two seasons in LA and yet again in his 5th season. There were 8 other times when he was top 5 in the MVP voting.

Magic didn't win his first MVP until '87 when Kareem was 39.

[jlip]

I will have you know that growing up as a young kid in the early 90's, nobody was saying this.

Lew was acknowledged as an all time great upon his retirement but it was not unanimous that he was the greatest ever. The names being tossed around were usually Wilt and Russell, with the edge going to Wilt I would say.

That's true and not completely true at the same time. Years ago on here, I did a thread that was one of the thousands that were deleted in the great ISH purge, but it detailed the Kareem G.O.A.T. conversation that was going on in the basketball world until the mid- late 80's. I'll post many of the links to the articles below, but from roughly 1981-1986 Kareem was getting a lot of G.O.A.T. talk. Prior to him, it was Russell. What seemed to happen is in the mid- late 80's as Kareem started getting older, the league began marketing younger, flashier, and more marketable players such as Magic, Bird, and Jordan, and the newer generation of fans who did not grow up watching prime Kareem and only knew him as the aging bald guy on the Lakers who does the boring and antiquated skyhook. They never knew him as the G.O.A.T candidate that the previous generation did. Kareem's removal from the G.O.A.T conversation in the 90's was not particularly a reflection on his greatness, but it was a testament to how powerful the new age of media and marketing was on the public's mind.

June 14, 1989- Pat Riley calls Kareem "the greatest player who ever lived (https://books.google.com/books?id=mloyAAAAIBAJ&pg=PA7&dq=kareem+greatest+player&article_id=1662,4112161&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwikw7bF7IODAxUZm2oFHcCqASQ4ChDoAXoECAMQA g#v=onepage&q=kareem%20greatest%20player&f=false)"

He said the same thing in 1985 even comparing Kareem to Wilt and Russell. (https://books.google.com/books?id=PX4gAAAAIBAJ&pg=PA12&dq=kareem+greatest+player&article_id=3166,1071324&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwikw7bF7IODAxUZm2oFHcCqASQ4ChDoAXoECAUQA g#v=onepage&q=kareem%20greatest%20player&f=false)

April 23, 1987- Hall of famer, Alex English refers to Kareem as "one of the greatest players ever to play the game, if not the greatest" (https://books.google.com/books?id=GGZPAAAAIBAJ&pg=PA8&dq=kareem+greatest+player&article_id=6105,5031513&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjmv7aq7YODAxVCk2oFHVEADic4FBDoAXoECA0QA g#v=onepage&q=kareem%20greatest%20player&f=false)

Feb. 8, 1986 - A panel of 60 basketball experts name Kareem the Greatest Player Ever (https://news.google.com/newspapers?id=UaNPAAAAIBAJ&sjid=PgYEAAAAIBAJ&pg=6990,4393247&dq=kareem+greatest+player+of+all+time&hl=en)

Dec. 8, 1981- Utah Jazz Coach Tom Nissalke calls Kareem the "greatest player ever to play this game." (https://books.google.com/books?id=qYRKAAAAIBAJ&pg=PA25&dq=kareem+greatest+player+of+all+time&article_id=5728,1914148&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjala_Sy4ODAxV0oWoFHRxCCt8Q6AF6BAgGEAI#v =onepage&q=kareem%20greatest%20player%20of%20all%20time&f=false)


July 31, 1979- New Lakers coach, Jack McKinney refers to Kareem as the "greatest player ever to play the game of basketball." (http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=jeguAAAAIBAJ&sjid=xjIDAAAAIBAJ&pg=3741,4242055&dq=kareem+greatest+player+of+all+time&hl=en)

[Chick Stern]

whatever strokes your peepee.

Kobe will never be ahead of Dr J, guy who literally revolutionized the sport.
Kobe is Top 15. thats about it. He aint winning anything if he wasn't a LAL and shaq's little brother.

Go check out Moses's dominance. leagues ahead of Kobe's and LBJs.

3 x NBA Season MVP
1 x NBA Finals MVP (against Kareem).
6 x NBA Rebounding Champion

If Moses did not bumb into Bird's CELTICS and Magic's LAL, he would've had 3 FMVPs and 4 MVPs easily.

Compare to Moses, what has Kobe accomplished. nothing. a consolation MVP for 20 yrs of shot jocking.
Mighty, mighty insecure.

Do you think he QUIT, or was SUSPENDED?

[Baller234]

That's true and not completely true at the same time. Years ago on here, I did a thread that was one of the thousands that were deleted in the great ISH purge, but it detailed the Kareem G.O.A.T. conversation that was going on in the basketball world until the mid- late 80's. I'll post many of the links to the articles below, but from roughly 1981-1986 Kareem was getting a lot of G.O.A.T. talk. Prior to him, it was Russell. What seemed to happen is in the mid- late 80's as Kareem started getting older, the league began marketing younger, flashier, and more marketable players such as Magic, Bird, and Jordan, and the newer generation of fans who did not grow up watching prime Kareem and only knew him as the aging bald guy on the Lakers who does the boring and antiquated skyhook. They never knew him as the G.O.A.T candidate that the previous generation did. Kareem's removal from the G.O.A.T conversation in the 90's was not particularly a reflection on his greatness, but it was a testament to how powerful the new age of media and marketing was on the public's mind.

June 14, 1989- Pat Riley calls Kareem "the greatest player who ever lived (https://books.google.com/books?id=mloyAAAAIBAJ&pg=PA7&dq=kareem+greatest+player&article_id=1662,4112161&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwikw7bF7IODAxUZm2oFHcCqASQ4ChDoAXoECAMQA g#v=onepage&q=kareem%20greatest%20player&f=false)"

He said the same thing in 1985 even comparing Kareem to Wilt and Russell. (https://books.google.com/books?id=PX4gAAAAIBAJ&pg=PA12&dq=kareem+greatest+player&article_id=3166,1071324&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwikw7bF7IODAxUZm2oFHcCqASQ4ChDoAXoECAUQA g#v=onepage&q=kareem%20greatest%20player&f=false)

April 23, 1987- Hall of famer, Alex English refers to Kareem as "one of the greatest players ever to play the game, if not the greatest" (https://books.google.com/books?id=GGZPAAAAIBAJ&pg=PA8&dq=kareem+greatest+player&article_id=6105,5031513&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjmv7aq7YODAxVCk2oFHVEADic4FBDoAXoECA0QA g#v=onepage&q=kareem%20greatest%20player&f=false)

Feb. 8, 1986 - A panel of 60 basketball experts name Kareem the Greatest Player Ever (https://news.google.com/newspapers?id=UaNPAAAAIBAJ&sjid=PgYEAAAAIBAJ&pg=6990,4393247&dq=kareem+greatest+player+of+all+time&hl=en)

Dec. 8, 1981- Utah Jazz Coach Tom Nissalke calls Kareem the "greatest player ever to play this game." (https://books.google.com/books?id=qYRKAAAAIBAJ&pg=PA25&dq=kareem+greatest+player+of+all+time&article_id=5728,1914148&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjala_Sy4ODAxV0oWoFHRxCCt8Q6AF6BAgGEAI#v =onepage&q=kareem%20greatest%20player%20of%20all%20time&f=false)


July 31, 1979- New Lakers coach, Jack McKinney refers to Kareem as the "greatest player ever to play the game of basketball." (http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=jeguAAAAIBAJ&sjid=xjIDAAAAIBAJ&pg=3741,4242055&dq=kareem+greatest+player+of+all+time&hl=en)

Good post, obviously I can't argue with any of this. I can only go off what I remember hearing as a kid in the 90's, both from the adults around me and also the so called experts in media.

That poll of 60 "experts" from that Dallas paper you provided is very strange.

- Lew won the poll with 18 out 60 votes
- Oscar was 2nd with 14 out of 60 votes
- Russell was 3rd with 13 out of 60 votes
- Wilt was 4th with 6 out of 60 votes.

So it was a tight race and Lew only won with 30% of the vote, but I'm really shocked they put Oscar at #2. I know you hear a lot of old timers argue he was the best they'd ever seen but I don't know how you can argue he was better than Wilt or Russell. I would love to hear some their explanations actually.

Lol this isn't concrete proof of anything whatsoever, but I just pulled out an old Beckett magazine from 1992. If you're not in the know Beckett was a basketball card price guide.

In September of 1992:

- Wilt's rookie card was trading for $1,500
- Lew's rookie card was trading for $750
- Russell's rookie card was trading for $500

What's noticeable about that is that Wilt and Russell's first card were found in the same set which was 8 years prior to Lew's, but Lew's rookie was still more desired than Russell's rookie.

But Wilt's card being double the price of Lew might be a sign where the public stood.