Duncan would've won with Baron Davis & Jamal Crawford in place of Parker/Ginobili

[3ba11]

the point is that it's backwards to say that duncan NEEDED parker to win, when it's the secondary producers like Parker or Klay that needed a top 10 goat to win..

Accordingly, secondary producers like Klay or Parker are incredibly lucky to next to a top 10 goat and punch their ticket, since top 10 guys don't grow on trees and come along once or twice per era... Otoh, secondary producers that barely average 20 ppg like pippen, klay, etc are quite common... Accordingly, why would a rare top 10 goat that won with secondary producers "need" them, when they're everywhere and quite common?...

I'm sure Giannis would've won with any solid-scoring forward - it didn't have to be Middleton... Dirk could've developed chemistry with any solid SG - it didn't have to be Terry... Otoh, Terry needed a goat-level run from a goat like Dirk to win.. So the media and fans state things backwards (and we know why and when it started).

[SouBeachTalents]

This is the perfect example of OP’s low basketball IQ

[3ba11]

This is the perfect example of OP’a low basketball IQ


it's low IQ to say that a top 10 all-time player needed the secondary producer rather than vice versa.. It's the secondary producer that needs the top 10 all-time player, so they were incredibly lucky to land next to a rare top 10 player... Top 10 all-time players don't grow on trees and come along once or twice per era... Otoh, secondary producers that barely average 20 ppg like parker, pippen, klay, etc are quite common.

[Phoenix]

You don't say.

[3ba11]

You don't say.


So why do people say that the top 10 all-time player like MJ or Duncan "needed" secondary producers Parker or Pippen rather than vice versa??.. It's the secondary producers that needed a top 10 goat, and therefore were incredibly lucky to land next to one.. Top 10 goats don't grow on trees and come along once or twice per era... Otoh, secondary producers that barely average 20 ppg like parker, pippen, klay, etc are quite common... Accordingly, why would a rare top 10 guy that won with secondary producers so-called "need" them, when they're everywhere and quite common?...

I'm sure Giannis would've won with any solid-scoring forward - it didn't have to be Middleton... Dirk could've developed chemistry with any solid SG - it didn't have to be Terry... Otoh, Terry needed a goat-level run from a goat like Dirk to win.. So the media and fans state things backwards (and we know why and when it started).

[Xiao Yao You]

:roll:

[ShawkFactory]

Yea true. The “need” thing is always misplaced.

Kinda like how Jordan didn’t “need” to score however much he did. He just happened to because he was good at it.

Same thing.

[tpols]

Baron Davis is comparable to Parker but you've totally lost the plot comparing manu to Jamal Crawford. He also had David Robinson who was a 7 foot Pippen. And a GOAT coach. And Kawhi Leonard. Pretty decent help.

[Phoenix]

So why do people say that the top 10 all-time player like MJ or Duncan "needed" secondary producers Parker or Pippen rather than vice versa??.. It's the secondary producers that needed a top 10 goat, and therefore were incredibly lucky to land next to one.. Top 10 goats don't grow on trees and come along once or twice per era... Otoh, secondary producers that barely average 20 ppg like parker, pippen, klay, etc are quite common... Accordingly, why would a rare top 10 guy that won with secondary producers so-called "need" them, when they're everywhere and quite common?...

I'm sure Giannis would've won with any solid-scoring forward - it didn't have to be Middleton... Dirk could've developed chemistry with any solid SG - it didn't have to be Terry... Otoh, Terry needed a goat-level run from a goat like Dirk to win.. So the media and fans state things backwards (and we know why and when it started).

How interesting.

[1987_Lakers]

Lol, hell no.

[3ba11]

.
.
.
Regular Season

Hornacek (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/h/hornaje01.html)'.... 17.7 PER.. 2.9 bpm.. 0.153 ws/48.. 42.1 vorp on 33,964 min.. 15/3/5 on 58.2 ts
Klay (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/t/thompkl01.html)............ 16.4 PER.. 0.7 bpm.. 0.110 ws/48.. 14.4 vorp on 20,380 min.. 19/3/2 on 57.5 ts


Playoffs

Hornacek (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/h/hornaje01.html)'.... 16.5 PER.. 3.1 bpm.. 0.145 ws/48.. 14.1 vorp on 4766 min.. 15/4/4 on 57.5 ts
Klay (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/t/thompkl01.html)............ 14.4 PER.. 0.7 bpm.. 0.091 ws/48.... 3.1 vorp on 4570 min.. 19/3/2 on 56.0 ts


Klay & Dray hadn't been all-stars yet heading into the 2015 season

So the 15' Warriors had 1 perennial all-star (Curry) and the Jazz had 2 (Malone/Stockton), while Hornacek was far superior to Klay across the board (stats above)

So the Jazz > Curry Warriors... The Jazz nearly beat MJ twice and demolished Shaq's 4 all-star Lakers and Hakeem and Duncan/Popovich/Robinson, so they demolish Curry

[3ba11]

Baron Davis is comparable to Parker but you've totally lost the plot comparing manu to Jamal Crawford. He also had David Robinson who was a 7 foot Pippen. And a GOAT coach. And Kawhi Leonard. Pretty decent help.


The point is that fossil Robinson and Parker needed a top 10 goat to win, while Duncan's needs were obviously much less... Specifically, he would've had a 10/10 banger like fossil Robinson on any team, and he would've had a baby point guard with horrific numbers like 2003 Parker on any team.. Similarly, Curry or Jordan would've had lowly-regarded 1st-time all-stars like 2015 Klay or 1991 Pippen on any team.

That's the way to look at this, but it gets reversed and somehow it's the top 10 goat that "needed" specific secondary producers and low producers to win.. It's bonkers and complete BS as usual.

Look at Curry in 2015 - the warriors were +2800 in the preseason and no one thought it was a great roster... But once Curry won 70 with this underdog cast, suddenly they're "stacked"... So Curry gets no credit for completely carrying that team as a unanimous MVP... Instead, he's viewed as needing tons of help to win 70, which is false... Heck, Klay isn't even a great player - Hornacek destroys his production, for example (previous post), so Curry produced a dynasty with a sidekick that produced less than Hornacek.

[3ba11]

Lol, hell no.


Why not?

And if you don't like Baron and Jamal, who is good enough to replace baby Parker's 14 on 36% in the 2003 Finals and baby Ginobili's trash producion, or fossil Robinson's 10/10 caliber?.. These guys were the definition of "others" or "busriders"

Should I have gone lower than Baron? he's too good isn't he..... How about Luke Ridnour?... Ramon Sessions?

[highwhey]

:facepalm

[ShawkFactory]

.
.
.
Regular Season

Hornacek (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/h/hornaje01.html)'.... 17.7 PER.. 2.9 bpm.. 0.153 ws/48.. 42.1 vorp on 33,964 min.. 15/3/5 on 58.2 ts
Klay (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/t/thompkl01.html)............ 16.4 PER.. 0.7 bpm.. 0.110 ws/48.. 14.4 vorp on 20,380 min.. 19/3/2 on 57.5 ts


Playoffs

Hornacek (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/h/hornaje01.html)'.... 16.5 PER.. 3.1 bpm.. 0.145 ws/48.. 14.1 vorp on 4766 min.. 15/4/4 on 57.5 ts
Klay (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/t/thompkl01.html)............ 14.4 PER.. 0.7 bpm.. 0.091 ws/48.... 3.1 vorp on 4570 min.. 19/3/2 on 56.0 ts


Klay & Dray hadn't been all-stars yet heading into the 2015 season

So the 15' Warriors had 1 perennial all-star (Curry) and the Jazz had 2 (Malone/Stockton), while Hornacek was far superior to Klay across the board (stats above)

So the Jazz > Curry Warriors... The Jazz nearly beat MJ twice and demolished Shaq's 4 all-star Lakers and Hakeem and Duncan/Popovich/Robinson, so they demolish Curry

Did you just derail your own thread?

[3ba11]

Did you just derail your own thread?


I showed that Klay was a lower producer than Hornacek to show how little help Curry won with... The 2015 Warriors were +2800 in the preseason, so no one thought they were a good roster... But once Curry won 70 with this underdog cast, suddenly they're "stacked"...

So Curry gets no credit for completely carrying that team as a unanimous MVP... Instead, he's viewed as needing tons of help to win 70, which is false... Again, Klay isn't even a great player - Hornacek destroys his production, for example (previous post).

Again, Klay needed a top 10 goat, while Curry needed a sidekick that produced less than Hornacek

[ShawkFactory]

I showed that Klay was a lower producer than Hornacek to show how little help Curry won with... The 2015 Warriors were +2800 in the preseason, so no one thought they were a good roster... But once Curry won 70 with this underdog cast, suddenly they're "stacked"...

So Curry gets no credit for completely carrying that team as a unanimous MVP... Instead, he's viewed as needing tons of help to win 70, which is false... Again, Klay isn't even a great player - Hornacek destroys his production, for example (previous post).

Again, Klay needed a top 10 goat, while Curry needed a sidekick that produced less than Hornacek

They all need each other bro. That’s why it’s called a “team”, right? It’s a symbiotic relationship.

No, Rod Strickland and Jamal Crawford on the Spurs wouldn’t be remotely the same.

[3ba11]

They all need each other bro. That’s why it’s called a “team”, right? It’s a symbiotic relationship.

No, Rod Strickland and Jamal Crawford on the Spurs wouldn’t be remotely the same.


Parker, Klay and Pippen need top 10 goats to win, while top 10 goats obviously need a lot less ...

Top 10 goats just need a 15-20 PPG guy, so hundreds of guys in the annals of history

So that isn't the same... You guys just state it that way to protect Lebron because he actually DID need opposing franchise players (less replaceable guys) to win... He couldn't win with secondary producers like Klay, Ingram or Jamison and needed franchise players - it's a big distinction and it's why he's nowhere near goat.. And we know why he needs more talent - it's because his skillset produces weak chemistry.

Btw, if Duncan needed exactly Parker and Ginobili (no one else would do), then he isn't even a top 1000 player if he can't win with anyone else in history... I provided an example of Baron Davis, who is easily superior to Parker, and Crawford is comparable to Ginobili... Duncan could win with any decent guards like this because that's all Parker and Ginobili were.

[AussieSteve]

This thread is 100% evidence of how triggered OP is by the fact that he knows the league is way stronger now than when MJ played. And that LBJs competition was much tougher.

Parker and Manu are examples of how the influx of international talent, which didn't exist in the 90s, robbed LeBron of rings that he would otherwise have won, had the league stayed predominantly US only as it was in MJ's day.

Would MJ & Pippen have beaten TD, Parker and Manu? We'll never know because they never faced a team that good.

[ShawkFactory]

Parker, Klay and Pippen need top 10 goats to win, while top 10 goats obviously need a lot less ...

Top 10 goats just need a 15-20 PPG guy, so hundreds of guys in the annals of history

So that isn't the same... You guys just state it that way to protect Lebron because he actually DID need opposing franchise players (less replaceable guys) to win... He couldn't win with secondary producers like Klay, Ingram or Jamison and needed franchise players - it's a big distinction and it's why he's nowhere near goat.. And we know why he needs more talent - it's because his skillset produces weak chemistry.

Btw, if Duncan needed exactly Parker and Ginobili (no one else would do), then he isn't even a top 1000 player if he can't win with anyone else in history... I provided an example of Baron Davis, who is easily superior to Parker, and Crawford is comparable to Ginobili... Duncan could win with any decent guards like this because that's all Parker and Ginobili were.

Nobody is thinking about Lebron at this point like you are, brother.

[3ba11]

This thread is 100% evidence of how triggered OP is by the fact that he knows the league is way stronger now than when MJ played. And that LBJs competition was much tougher.

Parker and Manu are examples of how the influx of international talent, which didn't exist in the 90s, robbed LeBron of rings that he would otherwise have won, had the league stayed predominantly US only as it was in MJ's day.

Would MJ & Pippen have beaten TD, Parker and Manu? We'll never know because they never faced a team that good.


Since we know that the best American player today is Ant, and he's worse than KJ, I'm quite confident MJ would win 15 chips if the best American players from 1990 (Magic, Bird, Robinson,, etc) were replaced by Ant/KJ and worse..

The cratering of American basketball from MJ to KJ is why today's NBA players are worse than previous eras.. And who cares if you add Jokic, SGA and Giannis because Shaq, Hakeem and MJ are still superior.. Or Robinson or Duncan.. There were just BETTER PLAYERS in previous eras

[AussieSteve]

Since we know that the best American player today is Ant, and he's worse than KJ, I'm quite confident MJ would win 15 chips if the best American players from 1990 (Magic, Bird, Robinson,, etc) were replaced by Ant/KJ and worse..

The cratering of American basketball from MJ to KJ is why today's NBA players are worse than previous eras.. And who cares if you add Jokic, SGA and Giannis because Shaq, Hakeem and MJ are still superior.. Or Robinson or Duncan.. There were just BETTER PLAYERS in previous eras

You know who didn't make the league today because of Jokic, who would have made the league in MJ's day? A G-leaguer.

You know who didn't make the league today because of Giannis, who would have made the league in MJ's day? A G-leaguer.

You know who didn't make the league today because of SGA, who would have made the league in MJ's day? A G-leaguer.

But yes. MJs league was stronger :facepalm

[3ba11]

You know who didn't make the league today because of Jokic, who would have made the league in MJ's day? A G-leaguer.

You know who didn't make the league today because of Giannis, who would have made the league in MJ's day? A G-leaguer.

You know who didn't make the league today because of SGA, who would have made the league in MJ's day? A G-leaguer.

But yes. MJs league was stronger :facepalm


You know who replaces Shaq and MJ today?.. Ant and Ja.

The cratering of American players means that NBA players are worse today, since Americans are still the majority... if the majority of the league is worse (Americans), then there are worse players overall today

[3ba11]

Nobody is thinking about Lebron at this point like you are, brother.


Translation - you're right. I have nothing.. Lebron needed to team up with opponents, while MJ, Curry and others were good enough to win with "normal" rosters of 1 franchise player

[3ba11]

Kinda like how Jordan didn’t “need” to score .





So how would the bulls win then? Because everyone else was maxed out... Pippen shot 46.9 true shooting in the 93' Finals, so he couldn't handle additional load, so MJ was forced to average 41... Any cast that needs 41 from the star is a bad cast... (again, both the bulls and suns averaged exactly 106.7 PPG and 113.0 ortg in the 93' Finals)

[AussieSteve]

You know who replaces Shaq and MJ today?.. Ant and Ja.

The cratering of American players means that NBA players are worse today, since Americans are still the majority... if the majority of the league is worse (Americans), then there are worse players overall today

The best American players from the 90s are replaced by the best America players today.

The best international players today are replaced by G-League equivalents in the 90s

It's your contention that the best American players aren't as good as they were back then. But that's a narrative driven by your obsession with MJ. Its obvious to literally everyone else that the best American players today don't stand out or dominate as much as some of the 90s stars because the standard of the entire league has lifted, as a result of the globalisation of the game of basketball and the influx of high level international talent into the league.

[warriorfan]

Baron Davis was hall of fame level of talent, if San Antonio can get him locked in then it would happen.

[Lebron23]

Stockton and hornacek averaged 9.7 ppg and 10 ppg in the 1998 NBA finals

[Overdrive]

You know who replaces Shaq and MJ today?.. Ant and Ja.

The cratering of American players means that NBA players are worse today, since Americans are still the majority... if the majority of the league is worse (Americans), then there are worse players overall today

This is the dumbest take I've ever read.

[ImKobe]

This thread is 100% evidence of how triggered OP is by the fact that he knows the league is way stronger now than when MJ played. And that LBJs competition was much tougher.

Parker and Manu are examples of how the influx of international talent, which didn't exist in the 90s, robbed LeBron of rings that he would otherwise have won, had the league stayed predominantly US only as it was in MJ's day.

Would MJ & Pippen have beaten TD, Parker and Manu? We'll never know because they never faced a team that good.

'93 Suns were more stacked offensively than any prime Duncan team.

Also Lebron beat a washed Manu and an injured TP (needed a bailout), other than that he wasn't facing any international greats during his prime either. Jokic in 2020 is the closest thing and Jokic wasn't a top 3-5 player in the league at that point & AD carried the Lakers in that series as the best player on the court in 3 of the 4 wins.

[Hey Yo]

Parker, Klay and Pippen need top 10 goats to win, while top 10 goats obviously need a lot less ...

Top 10 goats just need a 15-20 PPG guy, so hundreds of guys in the annals of history

So that isn't the same... You guys just state it that way to protect Lebron because he actually DID need opposing franchise players (less replaceable guys) to win... He couldn't win with secondary producers like Klay, Ingram or Jamison and needed franchise players - it's a big distinction and it's why he's nowhere near goat.. And we know why he needs more talent - it's because his skillset produces weak chemistry.

Btw, if Duncan needed exactly Parker and Ginobili (no one else would do), then he isn't even a top 1000 player if he can't win with anyone else in history... I provided an example of Baron Davis, who is easily superior to Parker, and Crawford is comparable to Ginobili... Duncan could win with any decent guards like this because that's all Parker and Ginobili were.
Funny how a decent guard like Parker can easily win FMVP over Duncan. Poor Timmy got locked up by old Z to the tune of 44% from the field and a .483 ts%

[Baller234]

This thread is 100% evidence of how triggered OP is by the fact that he knows the league is way stronger now than when MJ played. And that LBJs competition was much tougher.

This argument is constantly being made but it does absolutely nothing to help Bron's case.

Yes the talent pool was deeper during Bron's era. Yes the teams were constructed with more depth and more overall talent. So while you could argue that Bron faced better teams, that would also mean he PLAYED on better teams.

Bron's championship teams had WAY MORE offensive firepower than anything Jordan could have dreamed of in the 90's.

[tpols]

We saw what happened when Duncan played with two knucklehead star scorers in the 2004 Olympics. Marbury and Iverson. It was a disaster.

Oh and Manu ironically enough was the guy that knocked them out.

[ShawkFactory]

Translation - you're right. I have nothing.. Lebron needed to team up with opponents, while MJ, Curry and others were good enough to win with "normal" rosters of 1 franchise player

Not even close. I do always get a chuckle out of you claiming a victory simply because someone doesn’t care to argue the same point over and over with you though.

[Baller234]

Yea you can't ignore the impact Manu and Parker had on those teams. Those guys were star level players who could take over a game at any given moment.

It's actually sick how underrated those guys are in the grand scheme of things. Not even a top 75 nod. Lol how many championships do you need to win?

[sdot_thadon]

Stupid is as stupid does.

[3ba11]

We saw what happened when Duncan played with two knucklehead star scorers in the 2004 Olympics. Marbury and Iverson. It was a disaster.

Oh and Manu ironically enough was the guy that knocked them out.


So even though Manu needed a top 10 goat to win, it's Duncan that needed Manu and not the other way around.

Basically, no one is actually good at basketball, since guys like Duncan, Jordan and Curry just happened to land alongside the only guys to ever lace up sneakers that they could win with.

That's the dumbest and most wrong way of thinking about something ever... smh . The OP stands... You just put it in granite

[3ba11]

.
.
Regular Season

Hornacek (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/h/hornaje01.html)'..... 17.7 PER.. 2.9 bpm.. 0.153 ws/48.. 42.1 vorp on 33,964 min.. 15/3/5 on 58.2 ts
Klay (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/t/thompkl01.html)............... 16.4 PER.. 0.7 bpm.. 0.110 ws/48.. 14.4 vorp on 20,380 min.. 19/3/2 on 57.5 ts


Playoffs

Hornacek (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/h/hornaje01.html)'..... 16.5 PER.. 3.1 bpm.. 0.145 ws/48.. 14.1 vorp on 4766 min.. 15/4/4 on 57.5 ts
Klay (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/t/thompkl01.html)............... 14.4 PER.. 0.7 bpm.. 0.091 ws/48.... 3.1 vorp on 4570 min.. 19/3/2 on 56.0 ts






Yes the teams were constructed with more depth and more overall talent.





Shaq > Curry

Penny > Klay

Horace, Nick Anderson, Dennis Scott > Warriors trash cast.. And the Magic weren't even a top 5 opponent during MJ's career.

The 2015 Warriors were +2800 in preseason odds, so no one thought they had a good roster, and they had a sidekick that produced less than Jeff Hornacek (above).

Curry simply carried those bums to 70 wins, but he gets no credit because today's low intelligence generation thinks that 70 wins = stacked.

So you're just repeating crap that you heard on TV.. That's literally what you did - you repeated something that you heard on TV... The reality is that Jordan's opponents were stacked from top to bottom, but you simply aren't familiar with the players... You don't know that Sam Perkins, Vlade, Elden Campbell, and AC Green were good players and made the 91' Lakers "stacked" from top to bottom... You don't know how stacked the 92' Blazers were... Furthermore, teams had better chemistry back then from playing together longer.. Everyone was a long-standing organic juggernaut.. So Jordan faced better teams and more finely-tuned rosters, while Lebron enjoyed a top-heavy league - he was lucky to have 1 of the 2 good teams with free trips to the Finals... He also had the only team with 3 franchise players, aka super-team, and a record 6 straight preseason favorites (previous high was 3).

[tpols]

So even though Manu needed a top 10 goat to win, it's Duncan that needed Manu and not the other way around.

Basically, no one is actually good at basketball, since guys like Duncan, Jordan and Curry just happened to land alongside the only guys to ever lace up sneakers that they could win with.

That's the dumbest and most wrong way of thinking about something ever... smh . The OP stands... You just put it in granite

Nah its moreso youre underestimating the intelligence level of Manu and Parker as it pertains to team basketball and how important they were to the spurs long success.

Putting hero AAU American ballers alongside Duncan would've just led to more Bronze medals.

Iverson / Starbury combo was considered more talented than B Diddy and Jamal Crawford. Iverson was an MVP.

[3ba11]

Nah its moreso youre underestimating the intelligence level of Manu and Parker as it pertains to team basketball and how important they were to the spurs long success.

Putting hero AAU American ballers alongside Duncan would've just led to more Bronze medals.

Iverson / Starbury combo was considered more talented than B Diddy and Jamal Crawford. Iverson was an MVP.


Parker wasn't intelligent and Popovich hated him for years until he finally learned how to stay under control.. This is well-known..

Baron was dimensions superior and a cerebral player that combined intelligence with smart charisma - Baron Davis is considered incredibly smart, so you must be conflating him with Steve Francis or something.. I picked Baron (and Rod Strickland initially) in part because they were smart..

Regarding Manu, he was a bull in a China shop and mostly a sparkplug off the bench - hardly irreplaceable

But the overriding point is that Parker and Manu need a top 10 goat to win, while Duncan just needed guys to fill a role - decent role players basically - Baron would be massive overkill tbh

[SouBeachTalents]

Parker wasn't intelligent and Popovich hated him for years until he finally learned how to stay under control.. This is well-known..

Baron was dimensions superior and a cerebral player that combined intelligence with smart charisma - Baron Davis is considered incredibly smart, so you must be conflating him with Steve Francis or something.. I picked Baron (and Rod Strickland initially) in part because they were smart..

Regarding Manu, he was a bull in a China shop and mostly a sparkplug off the bench - hardly irreplaceable

But the overriding point is that Parker and Manu need a top 10 goat to win, while Duncan just needed guys to fill a role - decent role players basically - Baron would be massive overkill tbh
Again, the guy is completely clueless, he has no idea what he's talking about :lol

He genuinely believes if two players average the same ppg they're equals, which is why he's actually trying to claim Jamal Crawford is as good/impactful as Manu.

If he were GM he'd build a team as stupidly as the Suns have.

[1987_Lakers]

Yea, you don't know Manu's game if you are just calling him a spark plug. He wasn't a Vinnie Johnson type of player. He could do so many things on the court.

[RRR3]

Again, the guy is completely clueless, he has no idea what he's talking about :lol

He genuinely believes if two players average the same ppg they're equals, which is why he's actually trying to claim Jamal Crawford is as good/impactful as Manu.

If he were GM he'd build a team as stupidly as the Suns have.
He might actually be the Suns gm

[Meticode]

Stupid is as stupid does.

https://i.imgflip.com/1o5fzt.gif

[3ba11]

Again, the guy is completely clueless, he has no idea what he's talking about :lol

He genuinely believes if two players average the same ppg they're equals, which is why he's actually trying to claim Jamal Crawford is as good/impactful as Manu.

If he were GM he'd build a team as stupidly as the Suns have.


No one said that.. Don't make stuff up.

Ginobili had his chance as a starter in 2011, while he was also the 1st option along with Parker during the 1st Round loss to Zach Randolph that year.

These types of ordinary results were standard after Duncan exited his prime and when Parker and Manu took over.. A massive drought began until Kawhi arrived.

Parker and Manu wouldn't get All-NBA with that caliber if they were on a young and losing franchise.. They were simply viewed differently by having a dynasty on their resume, since history shows that secondary-producing sidekicks don't make All-NBA without winning titles first (Pau, Pippen, Parker, Manu, Klay, Dumars, Worthy, many more)... All-NBA is reserved for guys that teams are building around, aka "franchise players" like Jokic, Curry, Luka, KAT, Bosh, Love, AD, etc.. These guys don't need playoff success to make All-NBA due to their dominance/stats.. Otoh, secondary producers normally need titles to get All-NBA.

So again, Baron Davis destroys Parker and was a cerebral leader with high peak capability... He was basically Donovan Mitchell but with a bigger body count (peak TMac, peak Dirk, and others)... He would win titles alongside Duncan, even without a "Manu" coming off the bench.

Ultimately, Parker and Manu needed a top 10 goat to win in Duncan, while Duncan obviously needed a lot less.. He actually won his first title with a past-prime Sean Elliot.. it's intuitive that top 10 goats are irreplaceable, not their casts.. MJ won the 2nd three-peat with an entirely new cast and so did Curry in 2022... Duncan won with fossils and babies in 2014..

[AussieSteve]

This argument is constantly being made but it does absolutely nothing to help Bron's case.

Yes the talent pool was deeper during Bron's era. Yes the teams were constructed with more depth and more overall talent. So while you could argue that Bron faced better teams, that would also mean he PLAYED on better teams.

Bron's championship teams had WAY MORE offensive firepower than anything Jordan could have dreamed of in the 90's.

That's a separate conversation.

My point is that to say the NBA was a higher standard in the 90s than it is now is objectively ludicrous, and driven solely by a pathological obsession to try and convince the world that MJ is the GOAT.

LBJ played with better players than MJ, and he played against better players than MJ. It's obvious that, if everyone is better, it is harder for the best to stand out to the same extent. For a player to stand out as much today as MJ did, he would without doubt need to be better than MJ was.

[ShawkFactory]

No one said that.. Don't make stuff up.

Ginobili had his chance as a starter in 2011, while he was also the 1st option along with Parker during the 1st Round loss to Zach Randolph that year.

These types of ordinary results were standard after Duncan exited his prime and when Parker and Manu took over.. A massive drought began until Kawhi arrived.

Parker and Manu wouldn't get All-NBA with that caliber if they were on a young and losing franchise.. They were simply viewed differently by having a dynasty on their resume, since history shows that secondary-producing sidekicks don't make All-NBA without winning titles first (Pau, Pippen, Parker, Manu, Klay, Dumars, Worthy, many more)... All-NBA is reserved for guys that teams are building around, aka "franchise players" like Jokic, Curry, Luka, KAT, Bosh, Love, AD, etc.. These guys don't need playoff success to make All-NBA due to their dominance/stats.. Otoh, secondary producers normally need titles to get All-NBA.

So again, Baron Davis destroys Parker and was a cerebral leader with high peak capability... He was basically Donovan Mitchell but with a bigger body count (peak TMac, peak Dirk, and others)... He would win titles alongside Duncan, even without a "Manu" coming off the bench.

Ultimately, Parker and Manu needed a top 10 goat to win in Duncan, while Duncan obviously needed a lot less.. He actually won his first title with a past-prime Sean Elliot.. it's intuitive that top 10 goats are irreplaceable, not their casts.. MJ won the 2nd three-peat with an entirely new cast and so did Curry in 2022... Duncan won with fossils and babies in 2014..

What about Baron Davis destroys Parker? They are about as similar level of players as it gets. Davis was more athletic but Parker was a little craftier. Evens out and one isn’t clearly better than the other at all..

[warriorfan]

Parker is hella nice and clutch but Baron is another level.

[ShawkFactory]

Parker is hella nice and clutch but Baron is another level.

Was he though? He was another level at certain things, mainly the flashy ones we like to clap at. Parker was better at things too. Absolutely no guard in the world at that time was a better finisher in the paint.

Davis also cut his cloth being the best player on the team and played like it. Parker had a different upbringing but wasn’t a worse player at the end of the day.

[3ba11]

Was he though? He was another level at certain things, mainly the flashy ones we like to clap at. Parker was better at things too. Absolutely no guard in the world at that time was a better finisher in the paint.

Davis also cut his cloth being the best player on the team and played like it. Parker had a different upbringing but wasn’t a worse player at the end of the day.


Regardless of who you prefer, there are possibly hundreds of guards in the play-by-play era alone that could've replaced Parker, and such as Wall, Mike Bibby, Chauncey - tons of guys... Andre Miller, Lowry, Conley - anyone even close to this caliber.. Probably Ridnour.. Jameer Nelson, who shot 45% on threes... Many more

[ShawkFactory]

Regardless of who you prefer, there are possibly hundreds of guards in the play-by-play era alone that could've replaced Parker, and such as Wall, Mike Bibby, Chauncey - tons of guys... Andre Miller, Lowry, Conley - anyone even close to this caliber.. Probably Ridnour.. Jameer Nelson, who shot 45% on threes... Many more

As someone who presumably played basketball at a high level..you should know that personality matches matter as much as anything else.

Would John Wall and Tim Duncan mesh well? I’m not so sure.

[1987_Lakers]

Ginobili had his chance as a starter in 2011, while he was also the 1st option along with Parker during the 1st Round loss to Zach Randolph that year.



wtf is this shit? Manu started most of the '05 playoffs, the entire '05 Finals and was the Spurs best offensive player in that Finals series.

[3ba11]

As someone who presumably played basketball at a high level..you should know that personality matches matter as much as anything else.

Would John Wall and Tim Duncan mesh well? I’m not so sure.


You have no idea how they would mesh.

John Wall was an impressionable kid that probably revered Duncan, and probably works better as a 2nd option than the top guy ... Duncan would make things so easy for the talented Wall, who might be able to execute Popovich's demands easier than a less-talented overachiever like Parker.

So again, we have no idea... Heck, people thought rookie Pippen's soft ass wouldn't mesh with a hard-ass like Jordan..

So again, regardless of who you prefer, there are possibly hundreds of guards in the play-by-play era alone that could've replaced Parker, such as Wall, Bibby, Chauncey - tons of guys... Andre Miller, Lowry, Conley, or anyone close to this caliber.. Probably Ridnour.. Jameer Nelson, who shot 45% on threes... Many more

Ultimately, Parker and Manu needed a top 10 goat to win in Duncan, while Duncan obviously needed a lot less.. He actually won his first title with a past-prime Sean Elliot.. it's intuitive that top 10 goats are irreplaceable, not their casts.. MJ won the 2nd three-peat with an entirely new cast and so did Curry in 2022... Duncan won with fossils and babies in 2014..

[ShawkFactory]

Well yea if your argument is that one of the greatest players of all time was more important than a standard really good player then I have no rebuttal lol. That’s kind of how it works…

There are also plenty of people throughout the history of the game who didn’t have that great meshing and/or talented folks on their team who might have been top 10 or whatever otherwise. Too many people focus just on results and ignore circumstance.

[tpols]

Tony Parker was probably the best little man finisher ever. His points in the paint totals for a PG were ridiculous especially when you consider he couldn't even dunk. Ridiculously slick, slippery, and crafty. On and off the court. :lol

[3ba11]

Tony Parker was probably the best little man finisher ever. His points in the paint totals for a PG were ridiculous especially when you consider he couldn't even dunk. Ridiculously slick, slippery, and crafty. On and off the court. :lol


He learned the system well and exactly when it was okay to drive - that was his whole problem - he wasn't talented enough to drive whenever he wants like say, Wall... Parker was always dribbling around like a chicken with his head cut off and Pop hated it.. Pop literally hated Parker for years because he played like a doofus.. I'm sure there are many articles describing Pop pulling his hair out over Parker

And his jumper was often broke.. Pop wins much easier with a great shooter like Chauncey, Jameer Nelson, tons of guys.. Luke Ridnour probably gets the system down quicker

Ultimately, Parker and Manu needed a top 10 goat to win via Duncan, while Duncan obviously needed a lot less.. He won his first title with a past-prime Sean Elliot.. He would've easily won with Chauncey or Jameer Nelson in Parker's place (top 150 guys).. it's intuitive that top 10 goats are irreplaceable, but not their casts.. MJ won the 2nd three-peat with an entirely new cast and so did Curry in 2022... Duncan won with fossils and babies in 2014..

[tpols]

None of those guys played like Tony Parker or had his craftiness and intelligence. He was a tiny French man dominating points in the paint. How does that happen? Because he was fox level clever.

If not for the miracle play with Ray Allen... Tony Parker has two FMVPs. And thats not a fluke. Very short list to do that twice.

[SouBeachTalents]

None of those guys played like Tony Parker or had his craftiness and intelligence. He was a tiny French man dominating points in the paint. How does that happen? Because he was fox level clever.

If not for the miracle play with Ray Allen... Tony Parker has two FMVPs. And thats not a fluke. Very short list to do that twice.
Duncan's winning FMVP if they win in 2013, Parker averaged 16 points on 15 shots and shot 47%TS in that series.

And I'm really not trying to sound like a hater, I'm just being real, Parker's FMVP over one of the worst Finals teams ever in a 4 game series is definitely in the lower tier of FMVP's. Duncan was clearly the Spurs best player all season & playoffs, and while I know advanced metrics aren't the end all be all, Manu's blow his away in both the regular season & playoffs.

[tpols]

You're using numbers from Game 7 and and OT G6 there that wouldnt exist if the miracle sequence that occurred didn't happen. Parkers numbers looked much better and he was leading scorer of the Spurs and engine of the offense and he hit the game winner daggers as well in the 2013 NBA Finals.

Additionally, Tony Parker also finished 6th in MVP voting on the year that season. Which was ahead of Duncan. You guys probably didn't know that but fluke FMVPs don't have top 10 MVP regular season finishes.

[tpols]

Imagine if Pau got more MVP votes than Kobe when they played together. (not fmvp... mvp)

Imagine if Pau knocked Kobe out of the Olympics as underdog.

Parker and Manu both have done that vs Tim Duncan.

[ShawkFactory]

Imagine if Pau got more MVP votes than Kobe when they played together. (not fmvp... mvp)

Imagine if Pau knocked Kobe out of the Olympics as underdog.

Parker and Manu both have done that vs Tim Duncan.

Kind of unfair to compare completely different circumstances. Pau and Kobe never played together when Pau was in his prime and Kobe was past his.

Kobe never played on a horribly constructed Team USA roster against the 2004 Argentinian team.

[tpols]

Kind of unfair to compare completely different circumstances. Pau and Kobe never played together when Pau was in his prime and Kobe was past his.

Kobe never played on a horribly constructed Team USA roster against the 2004 Argentinian team.

It was being argued that Duncan > Parker in that specific year 2013.

How did Tony Parker finish 6th in MVP voting? Duncan was 7th so its not like he was 1987 Bill Walton. He was still considered an elite player... Parker was just considered better. A lot of revisionist history here. That Spurs team could barely dribble the ball or create anything without Parker. There's a reason the sentiment was the way it was.

You're not going to see Pippen get MVP votes over Jordan. You're not going to see Klay get MVP votes over Curry. You're not going to see Pau or Odom get MVP votes over Kobe. We did see that happen with Tony Parker over Duncan.

And then Manu having an argument for being best player in the 2005 playoffs title run and knocking Duncan out personally in 2004 Olympics when Team USA was favored to win?

Nah...

Needs to be some perspective here.

[SouBeachTalents]

It was being argued that Duncan > Parker in that specific year 2013.

How did Tony Parker finish 6th in MVP voting? Duncan was 7th so its not like he was 1987 Bill Walton. He was still considered an elite player... Parker was just considered better. A lot of revisionist history here. That Spurs team could barely dribble the ball or create anything without Parker. There's a reason the sentiment was the way it was.

You're not going to see Pippen get MVP votes over Jordan. You're not going to see Klay get MVP votes over Curry. You're not going to see Pau or Odom get MVP votes over Kobe. We did see that happen with Tony Parker over Duncan.

And then Manu having an argument for being best player in the 2005 playoffs and knocking Duncan out personally in 2004 Olympics when Team USA was favored to win?

Nah...

Needs to be some perspective here.
Some perspective is needed, Duncan was 36 in 2013, Parker was 6 years younger. It wouldn't be inconceivable for an All-NBA caliber player who's much younger to finish higher in MVP voting than a top 10 ATG when he's reached his mid 30's.

And I was not arguing Duncan was better than Parker in 2013, I was stating that Duncan would've likely been FMVP had they sealed the deal in Game 6.

[ShawkFactory]

It was being argued that Duncan > Parker in that specific year 2013.

How did Tony Parker finish 6th in MVP voting? Duncan was 7th so its not like he was 1987 Bill Walton. He was still considered an elite player... Parker was just considered better. A lot of revisionist history here. That Spurs team could barely dribble the ball or create anything without Parker. There's a reason the sentiment was the way it was.

You're not going to see Pippen get MVP votes over Jordan. You're not going to see Klay get MVP votes over Curry. You're not going to see Pau or Odom get MVP votes over Kobe. We did see that happen with Tony Parker over Duncan.

And then Manu having an argument for being best player in the 2005 playoffs title run and knocking Duncan out personally in 2004 Olympics when Team USA was favored to win?

Nah...

Needs to be some perspective here.

Elite-ish. Not elite like he was in his prime..

Duncan was also a different type of player than Kobe/Jordan in that he was perfectly okay to sacrifice his numbers. Didn't care about getting shots if others were playing well, etc. Didn't care about anything individual.

Again, circumstances and personalities are just very different

[3ba11]

None of those guys played like Tony Parker or had his craftiness and intelligence. He was a tiny French man dominating points in the paint. How does that happen? Because he was fox level clever.

If not for the miracle play with Ray Allen... Tony Parker has two FMVPs. And thats not a fluke. Very short list to do that twice.


Duncan won with Avery Johnson in 99', and then Parker averaged 14/3/4 on 40% for the 03' Playoffs and Finals.. Parker had a 7.9 gamescore in the 03' Finals... Meanwhile, Robinson and Manu were both in single digits and worse than Parker.

So again, Baron Davis would win many titles with Duncan compared to that trash from Avery and Parker.. Luke Ridnour would easily win with Duncan.. Jameer Nelson... Maybe even a guy like Ramon Sessions, who I like more than Avery Johnson.

Ultimately, Parker and Manu needed a top 10 goat like Duncan to win, while Duncan obviously needed a lot less... He would've easily won with Chauncey or Jameer Nelson in Parker's place (top 150 guys).. it's intuitive that top 10 goats are irreplaceable, but not their casts.. MJ won the 2nd three-peat with an entirely new cast and so did Curry in 2022... Duncan won with fossils and babies in 2014..

[rmt]

None of those guys played like Tony Parker or had his craftiness and intelligence. He was a tiny French man dominating points in the paint. How does that happen? Because he was fox level clever.

If not for the miracle play with Ray Allen... Tony Parker has two FMVPs. And thats not a fluke. Very short list to do that twice.

I STRONGLY disagree. Duncan would have had 4 FMVPs and 6 rings (and Lebron would have one less of each and maybe all this LBJ GOAT talk would be less). To magnify, TP was 31 yrs old (closer to his prime) while TD was 37 years old.

2013 NBA Finals
Tim Duncan 18.9 pts 12.1 rebs 1.4 assts 0.9 stls 1.4 blks 49% FG%
Tony Parker 15.7 pts 1.9 rebs 6.4 assts 1.0 stls 0.1 blks 41% FG%

https://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/2013-nba-finals-spurs-vs-heat.html

[rmt]

You're using numbers from Game 7 and and OT G6 there that wouldnt exist if the miracle sequence that occurred didn't happen. Parkers numbers looked much better and he was leading scorer of the Spurs and engine of the offense and he hit the game winner daggers as well in the 2013 NBA Finals.

Additionally, Tony Parker also finished 6th in MVP voting on the year that season. Which was ahead of Duncan. You guys probably didn't know that but fluke FMVPs don't have top 10 MVP regular season finishes.


LOL - Parker was 6th in MVP voting and Duncan right behind him at 7th. If you're going to be picky, TD was 1st team All-NBA (45 1st team points) while TP was 2nd All-NBA (16 1st team points) and yes, I acknowledge the positional aspect of All-NBA teams.

Most Valuable Player 2012-13

1 LeBron James
2 Kevin Durant
3 Carmelo Anthony
4 Chris Paul
5 Kobe Bryant
6 Tony Parker
7 Tim Duncan

https://www.basketball-reference.com/awards/awards_2013.html

[rmt]

How refreshing to see a Duncan thread that goes multiple pages these days! Just too many days between Finals games.

[rmt]

You're using numbers from Game 7 and and OT G6 there that wouldnt exist if the miracle sequence that occurred didn't happen. Parkers numbers looked much better and he was leading scorer of the Spurs and engine of the offense and he hit the game winner daggers as well in the 2013 NBA Finals.

Additionally, Tony Parker also finished 6th in MVP voting on the year that season. Which was ahead of Duncan. You guys probably didn't know that but fluke FMVPs don't have top 10 MVP regular season finishes.

Not to belabor the point but (in reverse) regarding Parker's FMVP -

2006-07 NBA MVP voting

Rank Player Age Tm First Pts Won Pts Max Share G MP PTS TRB AST STL BLK FG% 3P% FT% WS WS/48
1 Dirk Nowitzki 28 DAL 83 1138 1290 0.882 78 36.2 24.6 8.9 3.4 0.7 0.8 .502 .416 .904 16.3 .278
2 Steve Nash 32 PHO 44 1013 1290 0.785 76 35.3 18.6 3.5 11.6 0.8 0.1 .532 .455 .899 12.6 .225
3 Kobe Bryant 28 LAL 2 521 1290 0.404 77 40.8 31.6 5.7 5.4 1.4 0.5 .463 .344 .868 13.0 .199
4 Tim Duncan 30 SAS 0 286 1290 0.222 80 34.1 20.0 10.6 3.4 0.8 2.4 .546 .111 .637 13.0 .230
5 LeBron James 22 CLE 0 183 1290 0.142 78 40.9 27.3 6.7 6.0 1.6 0.7 .476 .319 .698 13.7 .206
6 Tracy McGrady 27 HOU 0 110 1290 0.085 71 35.8 24.6 5.3 6.5 1.3 0.5 .431 .331 .707 8.6 .163
7 Chris Bosh 22 TOR 0 43 1290 0.033 69 38.5 22.6 10.7 2.5 0.6 1.3 .496 .343 .785 9.6 .174
8 Gilbert Arenas 25 WAS 0 31 1290 0.024 74 39.8 28.4 4.6 6.0 1.9 0.2 .418 .351 .844 10.8 .177
9T Carlos Boozer 25 UTA 0 7 1290 0.005 74 34.6 20.9 11.7 3.0 0.9 0.3 .561 .685 9.9 .185
9T Kevin Garnett 30 MIN 0 7 1290 0.005 76 39.4 22.4 12.8 4.1 1.2 1.7 .476 .214 .835 10.7 .171
11 Chauncey Billups 30 DET 0 4 1290 0.003 70 36.2 17.0 3.4 7.2 1.2 0.2 .427 .345 .883 11.4 .216
12T Shaquille O'Neal 34 MIA 0 3 1290 0.002 40 28.4 17.3 7.4 2.0 0.2 1.4 .591 .422 2.8 .119
12T Dwyane Wade 25 MIA 0 3 1290 0.002 51 37.9 27.4 4.7 7.5 2.1 1.2 .491 .266 .807 8.8 .219
14 Amar'e Stoudemire 24 PHO 0 2 1290 0.002 82 32.8 20.4 9.6 1.0 1.0 1.3 .575 .000 .781 11.2 .201
15T Carmelo Anthony 22 DEN 0 1 1290 0.001 65 38.2 28.9 6.0 3.8 1.2 0.4 .476 .268 .808 7.3 .140
15T Baron Davis 27 GSW 0 1 1290 0.001 63 35.3 20.1 4.4 8.1 2.1 0.5 .439 .304 .745 6.4 .139
15T Tony Parker 24 SAS 0 1 1290 0.001 77 32.5 18.6 3.2 5.5 1.1 0.1 .520 .395 .783 9.6 .185


2006-07 All-NBA teams

1st G Steve Nash 32 PHO 645 645 1 129 0 0 76 35.3 18.6 3.5 11.6 0.8 0.1 .532 .455 .899 12.6 .225
1st G Kobe Bryant 28 LAL 643 645 0.997 128 1 0 77 40.8 31.6 5.7 5.4 1.4 0.5 .463 .344 .868 13.0 .199
1st F Dirk Nowitzki 28 DAL 634 645 0.983 125 78 36.2 24.6 8.9 3.4 0.7 0.8 .502 .416 .904 16.3 .278
1st F Tim Duncan 30 SAS 573 645 0.888 94 80 34.1 20.0 10.6 3.4 0.8 2.4 .546 .111 .637 13.0 .230
1st C Amar'e Stoudemire 24 PHO 351 645 0.544 36 82 32.8 20.4 9.6 1.0 1.0 1.3 .575 .000 .781 11.2 .201
2nd F LeBron James 22 CLE 494 645 0.766 64 78 40.9 27.3 6.7 6.0 1.6 0.7 .476 .319 .698 13.7 .206
2nd C Yao Ming 26 HOU 333 645 0.516 38 48 33.8 25.0 9.4 2.0 0.4 2.0 .516 .000 .862 7.4 .220
2nd G Gilbert Arenas 25 WAS 295 645 0.457 0 74 39.8 28.4 4.6 6.0 1.9 0.2 .418 .351 .844 10.8 .177
2nd G Tracy McGrady 27 HOU 278 645 0.431 10 71 35.8 24.6 5.3 6.5 1.3 0.5 .431 .331 .707 8.6 .163
2nd F Chris Bosh 22 TOR 234 645 0.363 8 69 38.5 22.6 10.7 2.5 0.6 1.3 .496 .343 .785 9.6 .174
3rd G Dwyane Wade 25 MIA 241 645 0.374 1 51 37.9 27.4 4.7 7.5 2.1 1.2 .491 .266 .807 8.8 .219
3rd F Kevin Garnett 30 MIN 225 645 0.349 5 76 39.4 22.4 12.8 4.1 1.2 1.7 .476 .214 .835 10.7 .171
3rd F Carmelo Anthony 22 DEN 142 645 0.22 1 65 38.2 28.9 6.0 3.8 1.2 0.4 .476 .268 .808 7.3 .140
3rd C Dwight Howard 21 ORL 108 645 0.167 1 82 36.9 17.6 12.3 1.9 0.9 1.9 .603 .500 .586 9.7 .154
3rd G Chauncey Billups 30 DET 86 645 0.133 0 70 36.2 17.0 3.4 7.2 1.2 0.2 .427 .345 .883 11.4 .216
ORV F Carlos Boozer 25 UTA 127 645 0.197 0 74 34.6 20.9 11.7 3.0 0.9 0.3 .561 .685 9.9 .185
ORV C Shaquille O'Neal 34 MIA 70 645 0.109 3 40 28.4 17.3 7.4 2.0 0.2 1.4 .591 .422 2.8 .119
ORV G Jason Kidd 33 NJN 58 645 0.09 0 80 36.7 13.0 8.2 9.2 1.6 0.3 .406 .343 .778 9.3 .152
ORV C Marcus Camby 32 DEN 42 645 0.065 2 70 33.8 11.2 11.7 3.2 1.2 3.3 .473 .000 .729 7.6 .155
ORV F Shawn Marion 28 PHO 41 645 0.064 0 80 37.6 17.5 9.8 1.7 2.0 1.5 .524 .317 .810 12.0 .191
ORV G Allen Iverson 31 TOT 39 645 0.06 0 65 42.5 26.3 3.0 7.2 1.9 0.2 .442 .315 .795 6.2 .108
ORV G Tony Parker 24 SAS 39 645 0.06 0 77 32.5 18.6 3.2 5.5 1.1 0.1 .520 .395 .783 9.6 .185