SGA Is Already Better than Peak Lebron

[Full Court]

Aside from the fact that he's not a shrivelly fourth quarter choker, SGA is poised to win MVP, FMVP, and scoring title in the same season - something Lebron was never able to do.

He's poised to win a ring organically, without jumping to a stacked team. Something Lebron couldn't do.

He's already scored 3,000 points this season, regular and post season combined. Lebron never did that.

He's the best two-way player since Jordan. A better team player and more efficient than Kobe. And clearly better than Lebron ever was.

[1987_Lakers]

LeBron scored 2,999 points during the 2018 season/playoffs while dishing out considerably more assists than SGA.


And best two-way better since Jordan? LOL. Jordan wasn't even the best two way player in the 90's. That was Hakeem.

LeBron was better offensively/defensively during his back to back title run with Miami than SGA.

[TheMan]

LeBron scored 2,999 points during the 2018 season/playoffs while dishing out considerably more assists than SGA.


And best two-way better since Jordan? LOL. Jordan wasn't even the best two way player in the 90's. That was Hakeem.

LeBron was better offensively/defensively during his back to back title run with Miami than SGA.
That's debatable, Hakeem by nature of his position was more impactful as a defender, MJ was a lockdown perimeter defender and had the most blocks and steals for guards multiple times but on the offensive end, MJ was clearly the better offensive player. Hakeem never led the league in scoring while MJ has the most scoring titles ever while winning a DPOY. Both were beasts on both ends, Hakeem gets the nod on defense while MJ easily has the edge on offense.

[1987_Lakers]

That's debatable, Hakeem by nature of his position was more impactful as a defender, MJ was a lockdown perimeter defender and had the most blocks for guards multiple times but on the offensive end, MJ was clearly the better offensive player. Hakeem never led the league in scoring while MJ has the most scoring titles ever while winning a DPOY. Both were beasts on both ends, Hakeem gets the nod on defense while MJ easily has the edge on offense.

Overrated defender


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p5aNUS762wM

[TheMan]

Overrated defender


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p5aNUS762wM

I've seen that video, it's been debunked.

I saw his career, I don't need to watch biased videos to change the narrative after the fact. If it's true you're in your late 20s, you rely on videos to get your info whereas I don't but nice chatting wit ya, dawg :cheers:

[1987_Lakers]

Forgot to add his fraud 1988 DPOY award, where they credited him fake steals and blocks


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MD2kOti016U&t

[TheMan]

BTW, I don't agree with OP that current SGA is a better two way player than peak LeBron, I'm not seeing it...yet.

[SouBeachTalents]

BTW, I don't agree with OP that current SGA is a better two way player than peak LeBron, I'm not seeing it...yet.
If SGA is truly better than peak LeBron that would make him literally one of the 5 greatest players to ever play the game. I don't see him reaching those heights :lol

If you're talking strictly two way players, not just peaks, then that's a different convo, but LeBron aside it's still a pretty outlandish claim.

[TheMan]

If SGA is truly better than peak LeBron that would make him literally one of the 5 greatest players to ever play the game. I don't see him reaching those heights :lol

If you're talking strictly two way players, not just peaks, then that's a different convo, but LeBron aside it's still a pretty outlandish claim.

He's still only 26, if he wins this year, he'll have won the NBA title younger than Jordan or James. He still hasn't reached his peak, dude might go on a run that puts him in the convo...or he may not, hence my "yet".

[Full Court]

LeBron scored 2,999 points during the 2018 season/playoffs while dishing out considerably more assists than SGA.


And best two-way better since Jordan? LOL. Jordan wasn't even the best two way player in the 90's. That was Hakeem.

LeBron was better offensively/defensively during his back to back title run with Miami than SGA.


Overrated defender


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p5aNUS762wM


Forgot to add his fraud 1988 DPOY award, where they credited him fake steals and blocks


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MD2kOti016U&t

Meltdown. :roll:

Bronie fluffer is shook by SGA.

:lebronamazed:

[1987_Lakers]

Don Nelson

:lol

[Phoenix]

He's still only 26, if he wins this year, he'll have won the NBA title younger than Jordan or James. He still hasn't reached his peak, dude might go on a run that puts him in the convo...or he may not, hence my "yet".

Yes,it should be noted this is Shai's 7th season, same as when MJ won his first.

[ShawkFactory]

Aside from the fact that he's not a shrivelly fourth quarter choker, SGA is poised to win MVP, FMVP, and scoring title in the same season - something Lebron was never able to do.

He's poised to win a ring organically, without jumping to a stacked team. Something Lebron couldn't do.

He's already scored 3,000 points this season, regular and post season combined. Lebron never did that.

He's the best two-way player since Jordan. A better team player and more efficient than Kobe. And clearly better than Lebron ever was.

I think Jordan, Shaq, and Kareem are the only people to ever win a scoring title, MVP, and FMVP in the same year. So I guess that would make Shai better than everyone else who didn’t do that either :lol

Also..the Thunder ARE stacked. Just because Shai is one of the lucky guys to play with a great organization capable of building a stacked cast “organically” doesn’t mean they aren’t stacked.

I’m probably as big of an SGA fan as anyone on ISH btw. But stop it :lol

[sdot_thadon]

Modern fandom is so toxic. Instead of enjoying SGA and cheering him on to win his 1st title, we're setting him up agaisnt Mount Olympus already because apparently hes so head and shoulders above the current crop of stars we need to compare him to GOAT's. :facepalm Enjoy the show fellas, **** these weirdos.

[StrongLurk]

Fluffers!!! Hurdurrr!!!

[3ba11]

LeBron scored 2,999 points during the 2018 season/playoffs while dishing out considerably more assists than SGA.


And best two-way better since Jordan? LOL. Jordan wasn't even the best two way player in the 90's. That was Hakeem.

LeBron was better offensively/defensively during his back to back title run with Miami than SGA.


Lebron can't score compared to SGA - that's the issue - it's a big gap, so who cares about the assists

And Lebron isn't on any lists for 3k points in a season, or 3k + 600 assists, let alone winning titles like this, which only MJ did (and maybe SGA this year)..

Lebron also only needed 25 ppg to win the 2013 title because he had a super-team of 3 franchise players on 1 team... Lebron also averaged 16 on 39% for the first 3 games of the Finals to get a 1-2 deficit and need 7 games.. The Heat didn't win with Lebron on the floor in the 13' Finals (zero plus-minus and negative net rating).

[3ba11]

https://i.makeagif.com/media/6-09-2025/uvWBVA.gif



In addition to being the goat scorer, Jordan is also the goat playmaker:



https://i.makeagif.com/media/6-09-2025/5Ygdnu.gif


Only Jordan won titles while scoring 3k points (except 2000 Shaq), and only Jordan won a title with 3k points and 600 assists.

Given Jordan's singular level of domination, why should anyone be surprised that he won 6 chips as the best player (twice as many as anyone else in 3-pointer history)???.. His caliber of domination is unmatched

[Phoenix]

Modern fandom is so toxic. Instead of enjoying SGA and cheering him on to win his 1st title, we're setting him up agaisnt Mount Olympus already because apparently hes so head and shoulders above the current crop of stars we need to compare him to GOAT's. :facepalm Enjoy the show fellas, **** these weirdos.

It's the microwave generation. We can't just let a player cook over the course of their careers and then weigh it out. Nothing but instant results or else they fall short of players whose entire careers are already etched in stone. The discourse sucks....

[GOBB]

I've seen that video, it's been debunked.

I saw his career, I don't need to watch biased videos to change the narrative after the fact. If it's true you're in your late 20s, you rely on videos to get your info whereas I don't but nice chatting wit ya, dawg :cheers:

Yeah that video been debunked. Someone used this in an argument recently elsewhere. Eye test dawg eye test.

Offtopic but somewhat relatable is Randy moss never goes over the middle. One video posts how he doesn’t. Another Video debunks it. Tug of war. I watched Randy Moss. He ran over the middle.

[GOBB]

I think Jordan, Shaq, and Kareem are the only people to ever win a scoring title, MVP, and FMVP in the same year. So I guess that would make Shai better than everyone else who didn’t do that either :lol

Also..the Thunder ARE stacked. Just because Shai is one of the lucky guys to play with a great organization capable of building a stacked cast “organically” doesn’t mean they aren’t stacked.

I’m probably as big of an SGA fan as anyone on ISH btw. But stop it :lol

Define stacked. Usually what’s implied by a stacked team meaning it’s loaded with talent. To where backups can start for other teams. Or maybe that’s my definition of stacked? I never got the sense that the Thunder were stacked. To me they have been the model of how a team should be built and play. Not that I want 32 teams playing like okc. They are the anti 3 star team that others keep trying to do. “I got two stars just need one more star player”. Whole time they can’t even fill a roster due to salary issues. SGA has help. So he doesn’t need it. But I also don’t think his team is stacked either. But again definitions can differ on what stacked means.

[ShawkFactory]

Define stacked. Usually what’s implied by a stacked team meaning it’s loaded with talent. To where backups can start for other teams. Or maybe that’s my definition of stacked? I never got the sense that the Thunder were stacked. To me they have been the model of how a team should be built and play. Not that I want 32 teams playing like okc. They are the anti 3 star team that others keep trying to do. “I got two stars just need one more star player”. Whole time they can’t even fill a roster due to salary issues. SGA has help. So he doesn’t need it. But I also don’t think his team is stacked either. But again definitions can differ on what stacked means.

I think Cason Wallace and Caruso would start for all but maybe a handful of teams. Caruso perhaps no more than 3 he wouldn’t. Wiggins and Joe probably for over half too. Wiggins had 41 in a game this year :lol

If you remove Shai I think Jalen Williams could be a 24-25 ppg guy and they’d probably still win 45-48ish games with all the depth. Maybe a little more honestly.

If “stacked” means star players together then no I guess not but they’re amazingly constructed.

[GOBB]

I think Cason Wallace and Caruso would start for all but maybe a handful of teams. Caruso perhaps no more than 3 he wouldn’t. Wiggins and Joe probably for over half too. Wiggins had 41 in a game this year :lol

If you remove Shai I think Jalen Williams could be a 24-25 ppg guy and they’d probably still win 45-48ish games with all the depth. Maybe a little more honestly.

If “stacked” means star players together then no I guess not but they’re amazingly constructed.

Gotcha, I follow where you’re going with it. I agree they are amazingly constructed. I’m really interested in seeing how they look in 2 years whether they can keep everyone. Who they have to sacrifice that you figured were going to be apart of the core forever (Chet?). It’ll be interesting to see for a small market team.

[ShawkFactory]

Gotcha, I follow where you’re going with it. I agree they are amazingly constructed. I’m really interested in seeing how they look in 2 years whether they can keep everyone. Who they have to sacrifice that you figured were going to be apart of the core forever (Chet?). It’ll be interesting to see for a small market team.

Yea either Jalen or Chet will have to be gone unfortunately. Probably some combination or Joe, Wiggins, Wallace too.

They’ve done a great job of stacking picks in anticipation for this though. They’ve hit so well recently that I guess they’re banking on finding the right guys again. Wouldn’t put it past them.

[Full Court]

I think Cason Wallace and Caruso would start for all but maybe a handful of teams. Caruso perhaps no more than 3 he wouldn’t. Wiggins and Joe probably for over half too. Wiggins had 41 in a game this year :lol

If you remove Shai I think Jalen Williams could be a 24-25 ppg guy and they’d probably still win 45-48ish games with all the depth. Maybe a little more honestly.

If “stacked” means star players together then no I guess not but they’re amazingly constructed.

I agree with this. This is probably the best organic team since the '15 Warriors.

[Full Court]

Bu-bu-bu-bu-but TOM BRADY!!!

:roll:



Fluffers!!! Hurdurrr!!!

You sound like a triggered Bronie fluffer.

:lebroncry:

[Full Court]

It's the microwave generation. We can't just let a player cook over the course of their careers and then weigh it out. Nothing but instant results or else they fall short of players whose entire careers are already etched in stone. The discourse sucks....

It's not about that. We're seeing greatness, and agenda driven "fans", such as 1987_Lakers try to undermind and downplay because it hurts their own fake narrative they're trying to push.

[Phoenix]

It's not about that. We're seeing greatness, and agenda driven "fans", such as 1987_Lakers try to undermind and downplay because it hurts their own fake narrative they're trying to push.

I just would like to see players judged within the context of their eras, contemporaries and situations. It's getting nigh high impossible to compare players decades apart over near 80 years of NBA basketball. Makes it really hard to just enjoy what's happening in the moment because there's this weird need to be compared to the past ( I know it's not unique to basketball but it really feels so antagonistic in tone compared to some other sports).

[Hey Yo]

I agree with this. This is probably the best organic team since the '15 Warriors.

OKC didn't draft Shai... they're not organic, chico

[GOBB]

Yea either Jalen or Chet will have to be gone unfortunately. Probably some combination or Joe, Wiggins, Wallace too.

They’ve done a great job of stacking picks in anticipation for this though. They’ve hit so well recently that I guess they’re banking on finding the right guys again. Wouldn’t put it past them.

Yeah who can really argue with the track record of drafting replacement and/or trading for them even. Great situation to be in for a franchise.

[Full Court]

OKC didn't draft Shai... they're not organic, chico

^Incredibly low IQ take. OKC didn't draft a lot of their players. No team has drafted all their players. Organic means they developed their players rather than hunting for stars. Glad I could educate you.

[MrFonzworth]

If it weren't for Fat, OP would be the heaviest poster on the forum.

[Meticode]

Crazy talk.

[Full Court]

If it weren't for Fat, OP would be the heaviest poster on the forum.

You sound like this thread upset you. :lol

Here's a serious question though. On a scale of 1-10, with 10 being an utter meltdown, how upset were you about Lebron choking away the serious against the TWolves?

:roll:

[HoopsNY]

I've seen that video, it's been debunked.

I saw his career, I don't need to watch biased videos to change the narrative after the fact. If it's true you're in your late 20s, you rely on videos to get your info whereas I don't but nice chatting wit ya, dawg :cheers:

He just needs confirmation bias. He doesn't really care about actual analysis. Which Lakers fans you know hate Kobe?

[HoopsNY]

Aside from the fact that he's not a shrivelly fourth quarter choker, SGA is poised to win MVP, FMVP, and scoring title in the same season - something Lebron was never able to do.

He's poised to win a ring organically, without jumping to a stacked team. Something Lebron couldn't do.

He's already scored 3,000 points this season, regular and post season combined. Lebron never did that.

He's the best two-way player since Jordan. A better team player and more efficient than Kobe. And clearly better than Lebron ever was.

This is an absurd take. SGA isn't the defender that peak LeBron was, nor is his game as explosive as LeBron. If you want to isolate some seasons, then sure. But SGA isn't on the level of LeBron circa 2009-2014. In fact, I wouldn't say he's on the level of LeBron 2015-18, either.

[1987_Lakers]

I've seen that video, it's been debunked.

Debunked by who? Some obsessed MJ fan on youtube? :lol

[ImKobe]

He's a more complete player than peak Bron for sure. No weaknesses.

[HoopsNY]

Debunked by who? Some obsessed MJ fan on youtube? :lol

No, just about anyone who watched him play at any point of his career between 1988-93 could debunk it. You don't get to be a top 5 DPOY vote getter almost every year and being heralded by many analysts as being the best defensive player in the league (irrespective of truth) despite not being an elite big without actually being great defensively.

Gambling the passing lanes was a necessary consequence of not having elite shot blocking on the team back then. If you watched the Bulls, they were masterminds of the full court press. Their perimeter defense (including MJ's consistent harassment), put pressure on teams offensively. MJ was a constant pest because his speed and quickness allowed him to play elite help defense the way few guards could, and allowed him to cover almost the entire half-court set.

This was something mentioned by a lot of post players during that time, because they knew MJ was lurking and it made it more difficult to establish in the post, or perimeter guys to evade screens.

So while Taylor is correct, it's completely devoid of context, let alone the results that it yielded -- mainly an ECF appearance of finals appearance/title.

Individual stats and percentages don't tell the whole story, but you're entirely agenda driven so it doesn't surprise me that you saw something and used it to pull down MJ's position in basketball history.

[1987_Lakers]

No, just about anyone who watched him play at any point of his career between 1988-93 could debunk it. You don't get to be a top 5 DPOY vote getter almost every year and being heralded by many analysts as being the best defensive player in the league (irrespective of truth) despite not being an elite big without actually being great defensively.

Ben Taylor and his team watched over 200 MJ games to confirm this, he wasn't just nitpicking games. We saw Kobe make 12 All-Defensive teams, most of them were undeserving, I really don't put much stock into how high he finished into DPOY voting, we all know about his case in '88 where he was gifted fake steals and blocks to win the award. (Hakeem was more deserving that year)

We saw a 35 year old MJ finish 4th in DPOY voting in '98, over Tim Duncan

We saw him finish 2nd in '93, over David Robinson and Patrick Ewing who anchored a historic defense that year.

I'm supposed to believe these votings are accurate? LOL

[Im Still Ballin]

He's a more complete player than peak Bron for sure. No weaknesses.

Is he? Peak LeBron was pretty well-rounded. When was his peak, and what is meant by more complete? How do we contextualize this relative to position? James' size affords him a degree of versatility Gilgeous-Alexander can't hope to match, on offense and defense.

A simple look at Synergy Sports Tracking's play-type statistics shows us this to be true. Let's compare 2013-14 LeBron to 2024-25 Shai:


PPP = points per possession; volume = number of possessions per game; POE = points over expectation (league average)

Points Over Expectation is a metric that highlights how much more efficient a player is than what we can expect from league average performance in each play.

2013-14 LeBron RS

Isolation: 97th percentile PPP, 99th percentile volume, 2nd POE rank
PnR Ball Handler: 100th percentile PPP, 73rd percentile volume, 8th POE rank
Spot-up: 91st percentile PPP, 48th percentile volume, 41st POE rank
Transition: 94th percentile PPP, 99th percentile volume, 2nd POE rank
PnR Roll Man: 90th percentile PPP, 21st percentile volume, 34.5th POE rank
Cut: 92nd percentile PPP, 71st percentile volume, 18th POE rank
Hand-off: N/A
Off Screen: 70th percentile PPP, 73rd percentile volume, 56th POE rank
Putback: 94th percentile PPP, 60th percentile volume, 25th POE rank
Post-up: 99th percentile PPP, 84th percentile volume, 4th POE rank

2013-14 LeBron PO

Isolation: 95th percentile PPP, 98th percentile volume, 2nd POE rank
PnR Ball Handler: 92nd percentile PPP, 80th percentile volume, 4th POE rank
Spot-up: 68th percentile PPP, 54th percentile volume, 50th POE rank
Transition: 98th percentile PPP, 95th percentile volume, 1st POE rank
PnR Roll Man: 88th percentile PPP, 62nd percentile volume, 15th POE rank
Cut: 100th percentile PPP, 74th percentile volume, 2nd POE rank
Hand-off: 62nd percentile PPP, 15th percentile volume, 41th POE rank
Off Screen: 75th percentile PPP, 79th percentile volume, 20th POE rank
Putback: 98th percentile PPP, 63rd percentile volume, 4.5th POE rank
Post-up: 100th percentile PPP, 89th percentile volume, 1st POE rank

2024-25 Shai RS

Isolation: 99th percentile PPP, 100th percentile volume, 1st POE rank
PnR Ball Handler: 99th percentile PPP, 99th percentile volume, 1st POE rank
Spot-up: 95th percentile PPP, 30th percentile volume, 27th POE rank
Transition: 86th percentile PPP, 99th percentile volume, 3rd POE rank
PnR Roll Man: N/A
Cut: 87th percentile PPP, 45th percentile volume, 43rd POE rank
Hand-off: 97th percentile PPP, 51st percentile volume, 18th POE rank
Off Screen: 65th percentile PPP, 48th percentile volume, 65th POE rank
Putback: 100th percentile PPP, 31st percentile volume, 12th POE rank
Post-up: 72nd percentile PPP, 69th percentile volume, 34th POE rank

2024-25 Shai PO

Isolation: 67th percentile PPP, 89th percentile volume, 7th POE rank
PnR Ball Handler: 88th percentile PPP, 97th percentile volume, 1st POE rank
Spot-up: 7th percentile PPP, 18th percentile volume, 104th POE rank
Transition: 80th percentile PPP, 93rd percentile volume, 2nd POE rank
PnR Roll Man: N/A
Cut: N/A
Hand-off: N/A
Off Screen: N/A
Putback: 19th percentile PPP, 27th percentile volume, 26th POE rank
Post-up: 100th percentile PPP, 14th percentile volume, 1st POE rank

[Im Still Ballin]

In my opinion, Peak Miami LeBron is a more complete PF/SF than current Shai is a PG/SG. And in general, irrelevant of position. Positionally speaking, it's close; non-positionally? Comfortably James.

[dankok8]

The video that 1987_Lakers posted is by Ben Taylor from Thinking Basketball. Ben's view on Jordan's defense is very nuanced. It's not like he is hating on MJ. He said he is a clearly positive defender but has problematic tendencies particularly gambling for steals which my own eye test confirmed. MJ did at times gamble for steals which led to defensive breakdowns. No doubt about it. But that doesn't mean he still wasn't a great defender. He was.

Was he better than top tier defensive bigs like Hakeem, Robinson, and Ewing? Of course not. But that's a standard that no non-big could ever meet. MJ is still an elite perimeter defender but perimeter guys just don't touch bigs in terms of impact.

[1987_Lakers]

The video that 1987_Lakers posted is by Ben Taylor from Thinking Basketball. Ben's view on Jordan's defense is very nuanced. It's not like he is hating on MJ. He said he is a clearly positive defender but has problematic tendencies particularly gambling for steals which my own eye test confirmed. MJ did at times gamble for steals which led to defensive breakdowns. No doubt about it. But that doesn't mean he still wasn't a great defender. He was.

Was he better than top tier defensive bigs like Hakeem, Robinson, and Ewing? Of course not. But that's a standard that no non-big could ever meet. MJ is still an elite perimeter defender but perimeter guys just don't touch bigs in terms of impact.

Correct. Ben Taylor basically still calls him an All-NBA defender, just not all-time great.

[HoopsNY]

Ben Taylor and his team watched over 200 MJ games to confirm this, he wasn't just nitpicking games. We saw Kobe make 12 All-Defensive teams, most of them were undeserving, I really don't put much stock into how high he finished into DPOY voting, we all know about his case in '88 where he was gifted fake steals and blocks to win the award. (Hakeem was more deserving that year)

We saw a 35 year old MJ finish 4th in DPOY voting in '98, over Tim Duncan

We saw him finish 2nd in '93, over David Robinson and Patrick Ewing who anchored a historic defense that year.

I'm supposed to believe these votings are accurate? LOL

Sorry, but you're once again showing how you're agenda driven.

1- I didn't argue the entirety of MJ's career. You conveniently highlighted 1998 whereas I mentioned '88-'93.

2- You then specify 1988, but only to tear down the DPOY. Nowhere did I say he in fact deserved it over Hakeem. I don't care that his steals and blocks may have been inflated. That wasn't my point. The point is that he was an elite defender between '88-'93.

You're focusing on the DPOY, meanwhile in '87 he averaged nearly the same amount of steals and blocks (2.9/1.5) without the discrepancy. In fact, he averaged almost the same amount of blocks that season whether home or away.

The DPOY award doesn't matter to me. I merely said he consistently finished top 5 because he was an elite defensive player.

3- Where does Taylor say he was an overrated defensive player, or that he wasn't great? Maybe I missed it.

4- You're mentioning '93 like I believe he was the best. I don't. That's why I put in parenthesis (irrespective of truth). I'm saying this is how he was viewed. It's why when Phil wanted to stop KJ from lighting up in the finals, he switched MJ onto him and KJ got shudown. Mike Fratello in the telecast goes onto say, "they put the best defensive player in the league on Kevin Johnson...."

Was he actually the best defensive player? No. I don't believe he was. But that's about all there was to the extent of him being "overrated."

But that's not what you're interested in. You want to make yourself believe that MJ was just an ordinary defensive player and maybe even just "good." To you, overrated is merely because of accolades being awarded, not actual impact on the game.

[HoopsNY]

The video that 1987_Lakers posted is by Ben Taylor from Thinking Basketball. Ben's view on Jordan's defense is very nuanced. It's not like he is hating on MJ. He said he is a clearly positive defender but has problematic tendencies particularly gambling for steals which my own eye test confirmed. MJ did at times gamble for steals which led to defensive breakdowns. No doubt about it. But that doesn't mean he still wasn't a great defender. He was.

Was he better than top tier defensive bigs like Hakeem, Robinson, and Ewing? Of course not. But that's a standard that no non-big could ever meet. MJ is still an elite perimeter defender but perimeter guys just don't touch bigs in terms of impact.

Right, but even then, I think Taylor is forgetting the type of defensive schemes that Chicago played, and the fact that Chicago didn't have elite shot blocking and relied a lot on three quarter court and full court presses.

Chicago's perimeter defenders were in your face from the jump (at least in the 3peat years) to make it difficult to develop entry passes. MJ lurked on the wings a lot but had the lateral quickness and speed for help defense, but gambled a lot because he was that good at recovering for help defense.

I believe it speaks more about the style of Chicago's defensive schemes than it did about MJ's passing lane gambles.

Either way, Taylor isn't tearing MJ down, he's simply being critical of where MJ's defense showed to have some negative impact. But it's a far cry from what 1987 is consistently trying to do.

[1987_Lakers]

Either way, Taylor isn't tearing MJ down, he's simply being critical of where MJ's defense showed to have some negative impact. But it's a far cry from what 1987 is consistently trying to do.

My only statement is that he was overrated defensively, and you basically proved my point. You had Mike Fratello calling him the best defender in the league in 1993, when Hakeem was at his absolute peak at that end and who many consider the best defender since the merger. My points about the DPOY voting in 1993 & 1998 kind of prove my point as well.

Not to mention you have articles today naming MJ the GOAT defender
https://clutchpoints.com/nba/nba-stories/25-greatest-defenders-nba-history-ranked





This one shows how overrated he is by fans, they have MJ ahead of guys like KG, Duncan, & Robinson.
https://www.ranker.com/list/the-best-nba-defensive-players-of-all-time-v1/jeffnorth

I feel for the most part, most media/fans will have MJ as a top 10 defender ever. And that to me tells me he is overrated on that end, because he doesn't sniff the top 10.

He is the GOAT offensive player and an All-NBA defender, but nowhere near as impactful defensively as the other all-time great defenders.

[gengiskhan]

Not even close.

LBJ is "generational" talent.

SGA is not.

The thread should've been SGA already better than EuroTrash, Luka.

[Full Court]

Not even close.

LBJ is "generational" talent.

SGA is not.

The thread should've been SGA already better than EuroTrash, Luka.

He's better than both of them.

And the "generational" talent is also the biggest choker in the history of the sport.

[1987_Lakers]

The funny thing is if you watched the game, Indiana was hunting SGA on defense, similar to how the Cavs hunted Curry during their Finals. OKC is loaded with defenders so it makes sense to go at SGA, but this is the best two way player "since Jordan"?? A guy who gets hunted on defense??

Players were scared to go at peak LeBron.

[ImKobe]

The funny thing is if you watched the game, Indiana was hunting SGA on defense, similar to how the Cavs hunted Curry during their Finals. OKC is loaded with defenders so it makes sense to go at SGA, but this is the best two way player "since Jordan"?? A guy who gets hunted on defense??

Players were scared to go at peak LeBron.

KD, even in 2012, went at Bron in the Finals and there was nothing Bron could do to stop him lol.

They're not hunting SGA because he's not a good defender, they're going at him to make him work harder so he's less effective overall. I'm sure you knew that already.

[John8204]

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/2BF_KRNCzRM

In defense of Lebron...I'm not going to forget the double no call. If this series goes seven...I don't know

[Full Court]

KD, even in 2012, went at Bron in the Finals and there was nothing Bron could do to stop him lol.

They're not hunting SGA because he's not a good defender, they're going at him to make him work harder so he's less effective overall. I'm sure you knew that already.

I'm pretty sure he didn't know that already. He's not very smart, and he obviously feels threatened by SGA, knowing that he's already better than peak Lebron. Good job trying to educate him though. You're spot on. They're also hunting him hoping he gets into foul trouble.

[1987_Lakers]

KD, even in 2012, went at Bron in the Finals and there was nothing Bron could do to stop him lol.

They're not hunting SGA because he's not a good defender, they're going at him to make him work harder so he's less effective overall. I'm sure you knew that already.

He's Kevin Durant, but KD got most of his numbers in garbage time in those Finals. LeBron actually did a good job on him. And they are going at SGA because he is their weakest perimeter defender, doesn't make him a bad defender, but nonetheless they are attacking him. Calling SGA the best two way player in the last 30 years or so is flat out one of the dumbest things I have ever heard on this site.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d8x8BGcFYJE

[ShawkFactory]

KD, even in 2012, went at Bron in the Finals and there was nothing Bron could do to stop him lol.

They're not hunting SGA because he's not a good defender, they're going at him to make him work harder so he's less effective overall. I'm sure you knew that already.

Is that how you remember it? :lol

He scored on Bron for sure. He was an unstoppable scorer lol.

Certainly didn't 'hunt" for that matchup lol

[GOBB]

Sorry, but you're once again showing how you're agenda driven.

1- I didn't argue the entirety of MJ's career. You conveniently highlighted 1998 whereas I mentioned '88-'93.

2- You then specify 1988, but only to tear down the DPOY. Nowhere did I say he in fact deserved it over Hakeem. I don't care that his steals and blocks may have been inflated. That wasn't my point. The point is that he was an elite defender between '88-'93.

You're focusing on the DPOY, meanwhile in '87 he averaged nearly the same amount of steals and blocks (2.9/1.5) without the discrepancy. In fact, he averaged almost the same amount of blocks that season whether home or away.

The DPOY award doesn't matter to me. I merely said he consistently finished top 5 because he was an elite defensive player.

3- Where does Taylor say he was an overrated defensive player, or that he wasn't great? Maybe I missed it.

4- You're mentioning '93 like I believe he was the best. I don't. That's why I put in parenthesis (irrespective of truth). I'm saying this is how he was viewed. It's why when Phil wanted to stop KJ from lighting up in the finals, he switched MJ onto him and KJ got shudown. Mike Fratello in the telecast goes onto say, "they put the best defensive player in the league on Kevin Johnson...."

Was he actually the best defensive player? No. I don't believe he was. But that's about all there was to the extent of him being "overrated."

But that's not what you're interested in. You want to make yourself believe that MJ was just an ordinary defensive player and maybe even just "good." To you, overrated is merely because of accolades being awarded, not actual impact on the game.

Good post

[Full Court]

He's Kevin Durant, but KD got most of his numbers in garbage time in those Finals. LeBron actually did a good job on him. And they are going at SGA because he is their weakest perimeter defender, doesn't make him a bad defender, but nonetheless they are attacking him. Calling SGA the best two way player in the last 30 years or so is flat out one of the dumbest things I have ever heard on this site.


Translation: "I'm angry!! Full Court said SGA was better than my sweet prince!!!! :cry:"

:roll: Just cry it out, Dudley.

:lebroncry:

And here's a pro tip for you. AI tools are getting very capable. You can try using them to figure out what an advanced stat is. :roll:

[Hey Yo]

^Incredibly low IQ take. OKC didn't draft a lot of their players. No team has drafted all their players. Organic means they developed their players rather than hunting for stars. Glad I could educate you.

No it doesn't.... your dumbass thought SGA was drafted by OKC :oldlol:

[1987_Lakers]

No it doesn't.... your dumbass thought SGA was drafted by OKC :oldlol:

:roll:

[Full Court]

No it doesn't.... your dumbass thought SGA was drafted by OKC :oldlol:

Nice strawman. You don't know what "organic" means just like Dudley doesn't know what an advanced stat is.

Bronie fluffers = lowest IQ demographic on earth. :lol

[red1]

Nice strawman. You don't know what "organic" means just like Dudley doesn't know what an advanced stat is.

Bronie fluffers = lowest IQ demographic on earth. :lol

get a life loser.



such a weird dude.

[Full Court]

get a life loser.



such a weird dude.

^Tells Full Court to get a life....while melting down because SGA is better than his sweet prince. :roll:

Cry it out, cupcake.

[warriorfan]

apu1 will stan lebron over his canadian boys

dude is a loser cuck

[bullettooth]

LeBronze nut huggers fuming in this thread.

Facts hurt :(

[bullettooth]

apu1 will stan lebron over his canadian boys

dude is a loser cuck


I knew that useless gobshite was from Brampton! LMAO

https://media.tenor.com/mRU5ypGWaKwAAAAM/indian.gif

[3ba11]

He's the best ball-dominator in a league of ball-dominators.

But in prior eras, we saw another ball-dominator in Lebron have a lottery record against ball movement teams like the Warriors, Spurs, Magic and Mavs, so SGA would have this same fate if there were more ball movement teams today... But in a league of ball-dominators, one of them has to win .. :confusedshrug:... This is why SGA is the first ball-dominator to win with "organic" roster of 1 franchise player... (although Jaylen is probably headed towards franchise player status).

[StrongLurk]

He's the best ball-dominator in a league of ball-dominators.

But in prior eras, we saw another ball-dominator in Lebron have a lottery record against ball movement teams like the Warriors, Spurs, Magic and Mavs, so SGA would have this same fate if there were more ball movement teams today... But in a league of ball-dominators, one of them has to win .. :confusedshrug:... This is why SGA is the first ball-dominator to win with "organic" roster of 1 franchise player... (although Jaylen is probably headed towards franchise player status).

You are crying more tears because you are wrong once again. Plenty of non-ball dominant teams exist and lost in these playoffs :lol

The Pacers themselves lead the league is passes/ball movement per game and play a high assist style offense. You are just dumb because you don't factor in defense at all. Thunder aren't winning because of SGA, they win because they have a top 3 defense since 2000...

[red1]

^Tells Full Court to get a life....while melting down because SGA is better than his sweet prince. :roll:

Cry it out, cupcake.

I'm making money and I look great and I get all the hoes

I'm doing alright son



how about you?


dont lie to yourself.



just look in the mirror and tell the truth. :oldlol:

[red1]

LeBronze nut huggers fuming in this thread.

Facts hurt :(


apu1 will stan lebron over his canadian boys

dude is a loser cuck



this website is where broke losers hate on 40 year old billionaires because they arent even worth $100k :oldlol:



you losers just live on your keyboards obsessed with a man who's literally just better than you at life :oldlol:



sad story. :cheers:

[bullettooth]

this website is where broke losers hate on 40 year old billionaires because they arent even worth $100k :oldlol:



you losers just live on your keyboards obsessed with a man who's literally just better than you at life :oldlol:



sad story. :cheers:

https://i.postimg.cc/MTHP0YM4/derp.png

[warriorfan]

https://i.postimg.cc/MTHP0YM4/derp.png

Young Apu has 100,000k rupees

[Full Court]

I'm making money and I look great and I get all the hoes

I'm doing alright son



how about you?


dont lie to yourself.



just look in the mirror and tell the truth. :oldlol:

You sound really insecure. "Oooo oooo ooo, I need to try to convince people on a forum that I'm successful. I need them to believe meee!!!"

Major loser vibes. No wonder you're a Bronie fluffer. Yep, checks out. Losers gravitate toward other losers. :lol

[Full Court]

He's the best ball-dominator in a league of ball-dominators.

But in prior eras, we saw another ball-dominator in Lebron have a lottery record against ball movement teams like the Warriors, Spurs, Magic and Mavs, so SGA would have this same fate if there were more ball movement teams today... But in a league of ball-dominators, one of them has to win .. :confusedshrug:... This is why SGA is the first ball-dominator to win with "organic" roster of 1 franchise player... (although Jaylen is probably headed towards franchise player status).

SGA is not a ball dominator in the sense that Lebron or Luka are. OKC plays really good team ball, and they have their share of good ball movement, even if it's not to the level of Kerr's Warriors. It's a great team system they have going.

[1987_Lakers]

SGA is not a ball dominator in the sense that Lebron or Luka are. OKC plays really good team ball, and they have their share of good ball movement, even if it's not to the level of Kerr's Warriors. It's a great team system they have going.

SGA was more of a ball dominator than Luka & LeBron this season.

https://www.nba.com/stats/players/touches?SeasonType=Regular%20Season&dir=D&sort=AVG_DRIB_PER_TOUCH


Brunson & SGA led the league in average dribbles per touch & average seconds per touch.

[Full Court]

SGA was more of a ball dominator than Luka & LeBron this season.

https://www.nba.com/stats/players/touches?SeasonType=Regular%20Season&dir=D&sort=AVG_DRIB_PER_TOUCH


Brunson & SGA led the league in average dribbles per touch & average seconds per touch.

Just another case of you not knowing what you're watching. All you can do is pull up a stat, that is no more than marginally relevant in this case, and not understand any context behind it.

[1987_Lakers]

Just another case of you not knowing what you're watching. All you can do is pull up a stat, that is no more than marginally relevant in this case, and not understand any context behind it.

Just another case of you going with old narratives without having a clue to what is going on today.

[Full Court]

Just another case of you going with old narratives without having a clue to what is going on today.

How much credibility would you give someone who says the 2020 Heat are better than the 2025 Pacers?


Oh wait....it was you that said that. :roll:


Dumb dumb Dudley. Using a silly stat that shows Curry having 1/2 of a dribble less per touch than Donovan Mitchell as the single measure of ball dominance. :roll: Tom Brady-esque.

[1987_Lakers]

How much credibility would you give someone who says the 2020 Heat are better than the 2025 Pacers?


Oh wait....it was you that said that. :roll:


Dumb dumb Dudley. Using a silly stat that shows Curry having 1/2 of a dribble less per touch than Donovan Mitchell as the single measure of ball dominance. :roll: Tom Brady-esque.

Yes, both teams (Miami & Indiana) won 2 games in the Finals (so far). So I don't see a problem with my statement.

You on the other hand thought OKC had a 3-1 lead last night. :lol

[Full Court]

Yes, both teams (Miami & Indiana) won 2 games in the Finals (so far). So I don't see a problem with my statement.

You on the other hand thought OKC had a 3-1 lead last night. :lol

This is exactly the kind of idiotic statement that gives you your reputation on here for being a low IQ moron. Absolutely zero ability to critically think. :lol

Proof that being a Bronie fluffer deteriorates your brain. :confusedshrug:

[1987_Lakers]

This is exactly the kind of idiotic statement that gives you your reputation on here for being a low IQ moron. Absolutely zero ability to critically think. :lol

Proof that being a Bronie fluffer deteriorates your brain. :confusedshrug:

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?514823-Dumbest-Poster-on-ISH-2023-Edition

/thread

[tpols]

Yes, both teams (Miami & Indiana) won 2 games in the Finals (so far). So I don't see a problem with my statement.

You on the other hand thought OKC had a 3-1 lead last night. :lol

With Bam out it was a joke. The Heat were at the bottom of their gas tank. Indiana looks to be there too.

[SouBeachTalents]

If both teams were healthy, I think it'd be a relative tossup. With the Heat missing key players throughout the series, even with Butler balling, Indy's the better team.

[red1]

Young Apu has 100,000k rupees

started 2009 bitch - started before you and 10k less posts than you :oldlol:

went to university and worked 6 different high paying sales jobs since I started posting - shoutout insidehoops for the streams and entertainment :oldlol:

[red1]

You sound really insecure. "Oooo oooo ooo, I need to try to convince people on a forum that I'm successful. I need them to believe meee!!!"

Major loser vibes. No wonder you're a Bronie fluffer. Yep, checks out. Losers gravitate toward other losers. :lol

you sound weak.


like literally. physically weak.


and broke.






sucks to be you :oldlol:

[red1]

You sound really insecure. "Oooo oooo ooo, I need to try to convince people on a forum that I'm successful. I need them to believe meee!!!"

Major loser vibes. No wonder you're a Bronie fluffer. Yep, checks out. Losers gravitate toward other losers. :lol

lebron is a loser? dude is a 40 year old billionaire. :oldlol:




dude could miss every shot and he'd be a champ :oldlol:

[Full Court]

lebron is a loser? dude is a 40 year old billionaire. :oldlol:




dude could miss every shot and he'd be a champ :oldlol:

No amount of money he can amass can erase the fact that he has the most choke jobs of all time. Truth hurts.

:lebroncry:

[Full Court]

you sound weak.


like literally. physically weak.


and broke.






sucks to be you :oldlol:

More of that insecurity. :roll:

You might be one of 8ball's alts. Both of you are Canadian Bronie fluffers, and both of you reek of insecurity.

Losers attract losers. :confusedshrug:

[red1]

No amount of money he can amass can erase the fact that he has the most choke jobs of all time. Truth hurts.

:lebroncry:

I disagree


spoken like an unemployed broke boy who doesnt have the brains to start his own business


1 billion goes a long way :oldlol:

[red1]

More of that insecurity. :roll:

You might be one of 8ball's alts. Both of you are Canadian Bronie fluffers, and both of you reek of insecurity.

Losers attract losers. :confusedshrug:

youre a child.



a sad child. :oldlol:

[Full Court]

youre a child.



a sad child. :oldlol:

You sound like a bitch.

Serious question: are you a bitch?

[red1]

broke boyyyyy


money in the bank



just a ran a 10 and I'm athletic as a ****kkk





he's a broke boyyyyy



he's a bummmmmmmmm

[red1]

athletic and I have money


just a straight up a winner


shit I'm kinda like - lebron no cap!!!!!!!!



much shorter and much poorer but 6'1 great job and I'm doing my thing - I'm happy with that :lebronamazed:



how you doing in life? :lebroncry::crazysam:

[Full Court]

athletic and I have money


just a straight up a winner


shit I'm kinda like - lebron no cap!!!!!!!!



much shorter and much poorer but 6'1 great job and I'm doing my thing - I'm happy with that :lebronamazed:



how you doing in life? :lebroncry::crazysam:

^Constantly trying to impress random internet people. Definition of insecure loser. :lol

As I keep pointing out, very fitting that you're a fan of a mentally weak choker. Totally fits.

:lebroncry:

[red1]

I flex all the time. its what I do!


thanks for confirmed that you're broke and that you're physically weak :oldlol:



probably overweight too :oldlol:

[Full Court]

I flex all the time. its what I do!


thanks for confirmed that you're broke and that you're physically weak :oldlol:



probably overweight too :oldlol:

All of this coping you're trying to do...you're really not taking your hero's premature exodus from the post season well, are you? :roll:

Bronie fluffers are such a pathetic lot.

:lebroncry:

[Walk on Water]

LeBron scored 2,999 points during the 2018 season/playoffs while dishing out considerably more assists than SGA.


And best two-way better since Jordan? LOL. Jordan wasn't even the best two way player in the 90's. That was Hakeem.

LeBron was better offensively/defensively during his back to back title run with Miami than SGA.



How was LeBron’s defense in 2018? By bringing up Hakeem, you’re just doing a typical LeBron redirect tactic.

[talkingconch]

He's not even close

[Walk on Water]

Overrated defender


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p5aNUS762wM


Not sure why you support LeBron when the majority of people with brains know the truth that he no Jordan. Why believe in stupid shit that isn’t true? It’s dumb man. LeBron ain’t it. It’s getting old.

[Walk on Water]

He's not even close

LeBron was never that good

[Full Court]

This thread certainly aged well.

[1987_Lakers]

Shot 8/27 in Game 7. Another choke by Full Court standards.

[Full Court]

Shot 8/27 in Game 7. Another choke by Full Court standards.

No question he pulled an offensive stinker, but he made up for it by being an absolute beast on the defensive end. Did you even watch the game?

We can chalk it up as a choke job though if you want. Now he only has 44 more before he matches LeShrivel. :lol

[Jasper]

this was a terrible finals .. a shooter got MVP in season as well as finals.

He has a lack of leadership , dimes and 3 pt shooting :facepalm

And by the way he should not be mentioned in any HOF players(.)

[Full Court]

this was a terrible finals .. a shooter got MVP in season as well as finals.

He has a lack of leadership , dimes and 3 pt shooting :facepalm

And by the way he should not be mentioned in any HOF players(.)

And yet he led his team to a championship.... :roll:

[Walk on Water]

Jordan had several years where he was the scoring leader, MVP and Finals MVP all in the same year. Why hasn't Lebron been able to do that? But SGA can? If LEBUM is so great.. why doesn't he do all this? Was he just lazy?

[Full Court]

Jordan had several years where he was the scoring leader, MVP and Finals MVP all in the same year. Why hasn't Lebron been able to do that? But SGA can? If LEBUM is so great.. why doesn't he do all this? Was he just lazy?

Nah, it had nothing to do with laziness. Lebron's just a tier below those other two.

[kawhileonard2]

Lebron stacked the deck, SGA didn't worked with what he had.