Was Hakeem Olajuwon's post-up game a little overrated?

[Im Still Ballin]

His shooting percentages (FG%, 2PT%, TS%) were never as high as Shaq's, Kareem's, Barkley's, Dantley's, Wilt's, Jokic's, and McHale's. And yet, he's often considered the best in the post. My personal opinion is that, while still one of the pivot greats, his post-up game was overrated due to its aesthetic appeal. No one has a prettier low-post highlight reel than The Dream.

IMO, what hurt his back-to-the-basket game was shot selection and, to a lesser degree, passing. He wasn't as good at getting the high-percentage looks, often settling for that tough baseline fadeaway jump shot. His touch in the paint was very good, but a level below Jokic, McHale, Dantley, and Kareem—the gold standards. He wasn't a huge foul drawer, and his FT% was below league average.

[Real Men Wear Green]

No.

[Carbine]

Wtf kind of thread is this?

[Im Still Ballin]

Hakeem career 2pt%: 51.6
Kareem career 2pt%: 55.6
Shaq career 2pt%: 58.0
Wilt career 2pt%: 53.8
Barkley career 2pt%: 57.8
McHale career 2pt%: 55.8
Dantley career 2pt%: 54.0
Jokic career 2pt%: 60.4

[Kblaze8855]

Unless you have numbers that isolate actual postup shots from him facing up in the mid range, I’m not sure what those numbers really show.

When these shots don’t go in….


https://i.ibb.co/rGqJ3XMG/IMG-1747.gif

https://i.ibb.co/mV5yCygt/IMG-1749.gif

https://i.ibb.co/W4xg8gDY/IMG-1748.gif

Is that being a worse post scorer or just a worse scorer?

Barkley and Jokic are the only ones who shot threes and other than Jokic every player you mentioned had their primes and peak before shot tracking data to say from where inside the arc shots were taken so it would be pretty hard to say definitively wouldn’t it?

[Im Still Ballin]

Unless you have numbers that isolate actual postup shots from him facing up in the mid range, I’m not sure what those numbers really show.

No play-type player-tracking data prior to 2004-05. 2PT% and TS% are good general correlates for overall scoring efficiency. They're the best we can do, and they're worth a mention. They show that Hakeem had a lower 2PT% and TS% compared to the listed players. Why is that? Was he taking more difficult shots? Was he not as good at making shots?


When these shots don’t go in….


https://i.ibb.co/rGqJ3XMG/IMG-1747.gif

https://i.ibb.co/mV5yCygt/IMG-1749.gif

https://i.ibb.co/W4xg8gDY/IMG-1748.gif

Is that being a worse post scorer or just a worse scorer?

Both? There are definitely vague, subtle lines of demarcation between play types. e.g., what constitutes post-up play.


Barkley and Jokic are the only ones who shot threes and other than Jokic every player you mentioned had their primes and peak before shot tracking data to say from where inside the arc shots were taken so it would be pretty hard to say definitively wouldn’t it?

It would, and a discussion can be had.

[tontoz]

Hakeem is overrated in general, at least on offense. He settled for jumpers a lot and his jumper was mid.

When he was motivated and hitting his J he was incredible to watch but he wasn't a lunchpail guy who you could count on night in night out. He didnt always play well with others.

[tpols]

Hakeem career 2pt%: 51.6
Kareem career 2pt%: 55.6
Shaq career 2pt%: 58.0
Wilt career 2pt%: 53.8
Barkley career 2pt%: 57.8
McHale career 2pt%: 55.8
Dantley career 2pt%: 54.0
Jokic career 2pt%: 60.4


Yolk out here GOATing again.

I do agree with OP that Hakeems short comings are rarely highlighted, only his success is celebrated. He doesn't get one ounce of the microscope treatment other GOATs get.

[StrongLurk]

His peak is not overrated, but his general prime years have gotten overrated recently.

[Im Still Ballin]

Yolk out here GOATing again.

I do agree with OP that Hakeems short comings are rarely highlighted, only his success is celebrated. He doesn't get one ounce of the microscope treatment other GOATs get.

Here's what the 2PT% and TS% looks like relative to league average:

Hakeem: 106 2PT+, 103 TS+ (REGULAR SEASON); 109 2PT+, 106 TS+ (PLAYOFFS)
Kareem: 119 2PT+, 114 TS+ (REGULAR SEASON); 112 2PT+, 109 TS+ (PLAYOFFS)
Shaq: 123 2PT+, 111 TS+ (REGULAR SEASON); 119 2PT+, 107 TS+ (PLAYOFFS)
Wilt: 125 2PT+, 113 TS+ (REGULAR SEASON); 120 2PT+, 107 TS+ (PLAYOFFS)
Barkley: 119 2PT+, 114 TS+ (REGULAR SEASON); 113 2PT+, 109 TS+ (PLAYOFFS)
McHale: 113 2PT+, 112 TS+ (REGULAR SEASON); 114 2PT+, 115 TS+ (PLAYOFFS)
Dantley: 112 2PT+, 116 TS+ (REGULAR SEASON); 109 2PT+, 113 TS+ (PLAYOFFS)
Jokic: 116 2PT+, 112 TS+ (REGULAR SEASON); 105 2PT+, 107 TS+ (PLAYOFFS)

[Kblaze8855]

Hakeem is overrated in general, at least on offense. He settled for jumpers a lot and his jumper was mid.

When he was motivated and hitting his J he was incredible to watch but he wasn't a lunchpail guy who you could count on night in night out. He didnt always play well with others.


I would say he’s generally underrated and misunderstood. Those clips I posted. I made a while back in response to someone who was adamant that he didn’t shoot at all. That he was a strictly back to the basket post up player who would have no place in today’s league. Dude actually told me to show him five clips of Hakeem taking a midrange jump shot believing I couldn’t do it. He obviously didn’t know me at all, but he was so adamant and I was incredulous.

People legitimately don’t know shit about so many even relatively recent legends.

But I’d say he’s underrated overall because of his defense. 95% of the discussion around him is his beautiful post game when he was one of the freakiest defenders in history.

If someone wanted to argue that he was the greatest defensive player of all time once he stopped being such a foul Pro jumping jack, I might not agree, but I wouldn’t disagree enough to fight about it.

If you come up with a list of people, you think we’re better on offense the number of them who are as good on defense as well? We’re talking about top five all-time types like wilt or Jordan if you believe Jordan was as good on defense.

Maybe someone really high on David Robinson could say him as well but that’s about the worst name you can mention.

It’s hard for me to call someone overrated when they are at least a worthy nominee for the greatest player ever on defense, but they can also give you 30 something a game on a title run.

on ball in the post. Switching onto a guard if necessary. Blocking shots. Being an absolute pest off the ball. He was one of the few big men who had that Scottie Pippen move where he could transition from being posted up to fronting so fast he would steal the entry pass flat footed.

That guy was so so freakishly quick on defense for his size while also jumping out of the gym and having crazy timing blocking and changing shots.

He’s legitimately a goat tier defensive player, but his whole legacy is post moves.

[tontoz]

Thats why i specifically mentioned offense. He actually took a lot of jumpers and wasn't that good at making them. It is like he became a better offensive player after he retired and people forgot that he was frequently a black hole that bricked a lot of jumpers.

He won 1 MVP in his career and was top 3 only twice. I see people on here saying he is top 10 all time and i don't see it.

[Carbine]

It's because of his two post season runs, one of which was one of the biggest carry jobs of all time. He is one of the only players to have a claim as best offensive and best defensive player during his peak.

The players who played against him revere him. The players who played with him, perhaps even more so.

Robert Sorry "Hakeem is 100 times the player Tim was"

He played with both, at or near their peaks.

[Kblaze8855]

Thats why i specifically mentioned offense. He actually took a lot of jumpers and wasn't that good at making them. It is like he became a better offensive player after he retired and people forgot that he was frequently a black hole that bricked a lot of jumpers.

He won 1 MVP in his career and was top 3 only twice. I see people on here saying he is top 10 all time and i don't see it.

I think it’s pretty simple. There’s almost no one generally accepted in the top 10, who would appear to be on a different tier from him on the same floor. There are a few others you can say that about Who don’t generally get put up there but Moses is the only one of them who won as the man. Off the top of my head at least.

he’s justifiable just from a basketball perspective. But you add a couple rings on top of it?

Who else has the “ Well, yeah, if we’re just talking basketball…” Along with his level of winning and isn’t put up there?

Kevin Durant?

How many people we really talking about?

[L.Kizzle]

Is this a low-key Kevin McHale boost thread, looks like it.

[Meticode]

https://www.reactiongifs.com/r/tbt.gif

[FultzNationRISE]

Hakeem career 2pt%: 51.6
Kareem career 2pt%: 55.6
Shaq career 2pt%: 58.0
Wilt career 2pt%: 53.8
Barkley career 2pt%: 57.8
McHale career 2pt%: 55.8
Dantley career 2pt%: 54.0
Jokic career 2pt%: 60.4

Okay Chuck.

Damn.

[tontoz]

I think it’s pretty simple. There’s almost no one generally accepted in the top 10, who would appear to be on a different tier from him on the same floor. There are a few others you can say that about Who don’t generally get put up there but Moses is the only one of them who won as the man. Off the top of my head at least.

he’s justifiable just from a basketball perspective. But you add a couple rings on top of it?

Who else has the “ Well, yeah, if we’re just talking basketball…” Along with his level of winning and isn’t put up there?

Kevin Durant?

How many people we really talking about?


He won his first ring at 31. Prior to that he wasn't sniffing MVP. He was 3rd team All-NBA the year he won the title.

[SouBeachTalents]

He won his first ring at 31. Prior to that he wasn't sniffing MVP. He was 3rd team All-NBA the year he won the title.
He did make the Finals his 3rd year knocking off the showtime Lakers, the only team to beat them from '85-'88, and took 2 games off a consensus top 3-5 team of all time in the '86 Celtics.

Him being 3rd Team in '95 was a function of him being a center with Robinson & Shaq both having MVP caliber seasons, he's likely 1st Team if he plays any other position.

[tpols]

Okay Chuck.

Damn.


That was the most impressive of all considering he was only 6'5. Dantley as well I guess. Super crafty skill to do that.

[Kblaze8855]

Id say MVP can be sniffed from 2nd place which is where he finished the year before he won it. Not that It matters.

And I suspect a good 75% of the championships ever won didn’t involve beating a team as good as the 86 Lakers. Magic and Kareem only lost one of the time in the west and that was a three game series. The Rockets beat them in a real 7 game series.

I’d say he was pretty proven both in his youth and his later years. They lost to what might’ve been the best team ever against bird playing the best basketball of his life with a much superior team around him.

He got knocked out the next season putting up like 50/25. He did as much in the playoffs early in his career as some others in the top 15 range did in their entire careers as a teams franchise player.

What…would’ve be better getting a couple more second round exits in the middle nobody would care about?

[Kblaze8855]

He did make the Finals his 3rd year knocking off the showtime Lakers, the only team to beat them from '85-'88, and took 2 games off a consensus top 3-5 team of all time in the '86 Celtics.

Him being 3rd Team in '95 was a function of him being a center with Robinson & Shaq both having MVP caliber seasons, he's likely 1st Team if he plays any other position.


yeah, that’s kind of a weird take to me. Criticizing his all NBA ranking in a season where both of the people ahead of him had the most famous ass beatings of their entire career when they matched up?

And I don’t even think they got out played by as much as history remembers, but the series that both of them had against Hakeem is literally the career low light for both of those guys The very year after he had Ewing have one of the worst finals in history.

he was going against the absolute best of the best, and they all had the most embarrassing and notorious performances of their lives.

[tontoz]

Id say MVP can be sniffed from 2nd place which is where he finished the year before he won it. Not that It matters.

And I suspect a good 75% of the championships ever won didn’t involve beating a team as good as the 86 Lakers. Magic and Kareem only lost one of the time in the west and that was a three game series. The Rockets beat them in a real 7 game series.

I’d say he was pretty proven both in his youth and his later years. They lost to what might’ve been the best team ever against bird playing the best basketball of his life with a much superior team around him.

He got knocked out the next season putting up like 50/25. He did as much in the playoffs early in his career as some others in the top 15 range did in their entire careers as a teams franchise player.

What…would’ve be better getting a couple more second round exits in the middle nobody would care about?


He didn't finish 2nd or even 3rd in the MVP race until after he won his first ring at 31. How many guys in the top 10 all time werent even top 3 in the MVP race prior to age 31?

Jokic has 3 MVPs and he's only 29.

[Kblaze8855]

You might be right about 93 but I feel like he was second to Barkley that year and that isn’t the kind of thing I usually get wrong but I’m driving right now just doing talk to text so somebody else can check. It would be pretty unlike me to forget something like that.

[Kblaze8855]

And I don’t know what the ages have to do with anything anyway. You don’t really get extra credit for winning at some specific age. The exact years you won something and completely different leagues for completely different competition isn’t really a way to evaluate basketball players is it? Having gas like magic, bird and Jordan on the greatest teams of all time winning MVPs and rings isnt really saying much about somebody playing with Robert Reed and Maxwell.

What was he supposed to win in the late 80s and early 90s?

[tontoz]

You might be right about 93 but I feel like he was second to Barkley that year and that isn’t the kind of thing I usually get wrong but I’m driving right now just doing talk to text so somebody else can check. It would be pretty unlike me to forget something like that.


I might be a year off on the timing because i am supposed to be working lol. But still the point remains that during most of his prime he wasn't even a MVP finalist. He was typically 5-7 in the voting.He was 31 in '93.

[Im Still Ballin]

Is this a low-key Kevin McHale boost thread, looks like it.

Come on, bro. Do I really look like a poster with a plan? If I wanted to boost Kevin's post-up game at the expense of Hakeem's, I would've mentioned the 1986 NBA Finals. McHale put up 25.8 ppg on 57.3% 2PT and 62.9% TS in comparison to 24.7 ppg on 47.9% 2PT and 52.6% TS for Olajuwon.

Kevin won the battle of the post-up greats. Granted, Hakeem didn't guard McHale, but his help defense was too slow for Kevin's laser-quick catch-and-finish post possessions. On the flipside, McHale did guard Olajuwon, blocking him on a number of possessions in the post:

https://i.ibb.co/27s8kPBx/95ad5f43123a4289a224421f55818d99.gif
https://i.ibb.co/W49HW316/22cedf908e774efca204d979de9bf604.gif
https://i.ibb.co/Kjz3BgCJ/121d43a221b94310b43c463eabd184bf.gif

[Im Still Ballin]

https://i.ibb.co/ZpPLnt9V/e451de28dbb04465abc80b06b9a47d1a.gif
https://i.ibb.co/KcRcGvGQ/4a56deef0c8b4297a3d3623fb2c126bc.gif
https://i.ibb.co/JFbQR1Kp/396f7906ceb14edcb157b876154e989e.gif

[Im Still Ballin]

https://i.ibb.co/PZ1XgCWC/d33802db7cd2490fb8abe9c38cade6e1.gif

[Im Still Ballin]

That was a 23 year old Hakeem, though. Have to give him some grace. McHale was 28.

[Im Still Ballin]

Also, the 1995 NBA Finals H2H duel between post-up greats was largely a wash. dankok stat-tracked the 4 games a year ago; this was his analysis:


For much of the series, the two men guarded each other. In fact, for most of the time they were on the floor, they were matched up unless one of them was in foul trouble. In those instances, Orlando used Horace Grant on Hakeem and Houston used Charles Jones on Shaq. On a few possessions, both Hakeem and Shaq were switched onto other smaller players who contested them.

Apart from shooting, the tracking also includes fouls drawn and turnovers but I only included turnovers caused by the other player. For example, if Hakeem drew a charge on Shaq or stripped Shaq of the ball, I counted those but if Shaq threw a bad pass that got intercepted by Kenny Smith, I didn't count that.



Game 1: Orlando 118 - 120 Houston (OT)

Shaq: +6 ON, -8 OFF
Hakeem: -7 ON, +9 OFF

When Both ON: Orlando 90 - 77 Houston

When Defending Each Other
Shaq: 19 points, 7/12 shooting, 5/7 FT, 4 fouls drawn, 3 turnovers
Hakeem: 19 points, 8/17 shooting, 3/5 FT, 3 fouls drawn, 1 turnover



Game 2: Orlando 106 - 117 Houston

Shaq: -3 ON, -8 OFF
Hakeem: +5 ON, +6 OFF

When Both ON: Orlando 92 - 93 Houston

When Defending Each Other
Shaq: 18 points, 8/15 shooting, 2/2 FT, 2 fouls drawn, 1 turnover
Hakeem: 18 points, 8/19 shooting, 2/5 FT, 3 fouls drawn, 0 turnovers



Game 3: Houston 106 - 103 Orlando

Shaq: +1 ON, -4 OFF
Hakeem: +4 ON, -1 OFF

When Both ON: Houston 96 - 95 Orlando

When Defending Each Other
Shaq: 23 points, 10/16 shooting, 3/4 FT, 4 fouls drawn, 1 turnover
Hakeem: 16 points, 7/20 shooting, 2/3 FT, 2 fouls drawn, 0 turnovers



Game 4: Houston 113 - 101 Orlando

Shaq: -16 ON +4 OFF
Hakeem: +15 ON -3 OFF

When Both ON: Houston 106 - 87 Orlando

When Defending Each Other
Shaq: 18 points, 9/16 shooting, 0/0 FT, 3 fouls drawn, 3 turnovers
Hakeem: 17 points, 7/17 shooting, 2/2 FT, 2 fouls drawn, 2 turnovers *one 3pt make



Series Summary

Scoring Margin: Houston +28

Shaq: -12 ON -16 OFF
Hakeem: +17 ON +11 OFF

When Both ON: Houston +7

Per 100 Possessions

Shaq ON: 111.8 ORtg, 115.2 DRtg, -3.4 Net Rtg
Hakeem ON: 115.3 ORtg, 110.5 DRtg, +4.8 Net Rtg

Shaq OFF: 89.3 ORtg, 136.9 DRtg, -47.6 Net Rtg
Hakeem OFF: 134.9 ORtg, 104.0 DRtg, +30.9 Net Rtg

Shaq ON-OFF: +44.2 Net Rtg
Hakeem ON-OFF: -26.1 Net Rtg



Series Totals - Man Defense

Hakeem
Defended by Shaq: 70 points, 44.0 %TS (30/73 FG, 9/15 FT), 10 fouls drawn, 3 turnovers
Defended by Grant: 42 points, 62.6 %TS (18/30 FG, 6/8 FT), 4 fouls drawn, 2 turnovers
Defended by Others/Undefended: 19 points, 66.3 %TS (8/13 FG, 3/3 FT), 4 fouls drawn

Shaq
Defended by Hakeem: 78 points, 59.3 %TS (34/60 FG, 10/13 FT), 13 fouls drawn, 8 turnovers
Defended by Jones: 19 points, 60.4 %TS (6/10 FG, 7/13 FT), 8 fouls drawn, 3 turnovers
Defended by Others/Undefended: 15 points, 67.9 %TS (4/4 FG, 7/16 FT), 9 fouls drawn



Conclusions:

In the direct matchup, Shaq got the better of Hakeem scoring more on much higher efficiency and drawing more fouls on the other. Although Hakeem forced more turnovers on Shaq than vice versa, it's hard to say that Hakeem didn't lose the matchup.

it was a contrast of styles with Shaq overwhelming Hakeem with raw strength and athleticism and Hakeem getting the better of Shaq in face up situations beating him off the dribble and with his jukes, spins, and dream shakes.

As for who was the better overall player in the series, I'd probably call it a wash. Hakeem dominated when defended by Horace Grant who is a really good defender more so than Shaq dominated Charles Jones. Hakeem also had an edge in overall team defense although Shaq was quite good in this area himself. Shaq not only did a great job defending Hakeem but he blocked more shots than Olajuwon in the series and was very active defensively.

Ultimately the play of these two monsters isn't what determined the series. Excluding Drexler and Penny who in my opinion also played each other close to a draw, the supporting cast of the Rockets completely outplayed that of Orlando. Anderson after infamously missing the four free throws at the end of regulation in Game 1 was shook and never the same afterwards. Dennis Scott's shooting was off all series and he gave the team virtually nothing as well and since Anderson and Scott averaged around 40 mpg, that hurt the Magic a lot. On the other hand, the likes of Horry, Cassell, Elie and Kenny Smith were amazingly clutch, devastating in transition and shot the lights out from 3pt range. It was the Rockets' role players that won this series.

[Kblaze8855]

You wanna go one on one with the great one in a misleading clip off? You know I’ll make this the rest of my day. I have that little to do when it’s hot out and I’m actually at home.

I’ll make Kevin McHale the poster boy for the next “We done with the 90s!” trend And only you guys will know that I didn’t mean it.

[Baller234]

Kblaze where do you land on the Hakeem/Shaq debate?

[Kblaze8855]

Hakeem was a better total basketball player But that doesn’t mean he was more effective than Shaq at his peak for any number of reasons. Who I would take depends on the situation. It’s close enough that I can’t get mad at either choice. I do believe I would take Hakeem for right now but right now is a really small slice of history

[Kblaze8855]

Hakeem was a better total basketball player But that doesn’t mean he was more effective than Shaq at his peak for any number of reasons. Who I would take depends on the situation. It’s close enough that I can’t get mad at either choice. I do believe I would take Hakeem for right now but right now is a really small slice of history

[tontoz]

Hakeem would certainly be better off in this era on both ends. The spacing would allow him to get to the rim more and on defense he would be the perfect big that can protect the rim and defend guards on switches.

[Baller234]

Hakeem was a better total basketball player But that doesn’t mean he was more effective than Shaq at his peak for any number of reasons. Who I would take depends on the situation. It’s close enough that I can’t get mad at either choice. I do believe I would take Hakeem for right now but right now is a really small slice of history

Interesting. I only asked because I enjoyed your posts and it looked like you had a lot of perspective when it came to Hakeem. Having said that I don't know if I agree. It's very close I'm with you on that but think I can make a better case for Dream.

Shaq was more effective in his spot but he was more limited outside of it. Dream on the other hand could score in a more variety of ways and could also shoot free throws better when it counted. That on top of his defensive superiority and emotional maturity.

You said it depends on the situation. I'm curious, in what situation would you rather have Shaq on your team?

[sdot_thadon]

Not at all, Dream could operate and be effective from anywhere in the post in his prime. Perhaps the most complete post arsenal well ever see. He wasn't as willing a passer in his early career but became very good at passing out of doubles, I wanna say those rockets were the 1st to surround an elite paint threat with shooting and make you pick your poison. Low Post, Mid post and even occasionally from the high post. His efficiency might be a similar argument to Kobes perimeter game....complete bag but sometimes consists of less gimme buckets. He had every shot, hooks, fades, counters and at his best counters for your counters up to several times in the same possession. Think the post equivalent of Kyries handles.

[Xiao Yao You]

Playing 4 out around hakeem was certainly the latest evolvement in the game at the time.