What are some unpopular basketball beliefs that you have?

[1987_Lakers]

I'll start.

- Shawn Kemp was the best defender on the '96 Sonics, even over Gary Payton who won DPOY that season.

[Tavr]

-If MJ never retired in 93, he loses a Finals to Houston.

-Jokic, while incredibly skilled and high impact, is also overrated and difficult to rank all-time. Mainly due to the lack of competition at his position

-Prime Wade was every bit as good as Kobe and LeBron

-Stats are important, but equally overstated

[Axe]

That the thunder ended up being the 4th-6th seed in 2023, even though it's bright as daylight that it never happened at all.

[post]

jokic is goat and it's not close

[RRR3]

jokic is goat and it's not close
:facepalm

[SouBeachTalents]

I find it crazy how the two bad calls that went against Utah are never brought up when discussing Game 6

Titles/team results are very overrated when evaluating players

Iggy was the most deserving choice for FMVP

Dirk's 2011 title run is very overrated

Giannis had a top 10 peak of all time

[NBAGOAT]

Cp3 was better than kd in their primes. Magic were the best team Jordan faced in 90s

[Xiao Yao You]

Gobert, bum, cotm, sloan, stockton... you all know :rockon:

[Reggie43]

Stockton could have been a 25ppg scorer if he wanted to.

[Soundwave]

-If MJ never retired in 93, he loses a Finals to Houston.

-Jokic, while incredibly skilled and high impact, is also overrated and difficult to rank all-time. Mainly due to the lack of competition at his position

-Prime Wade was every bit as good as Kobe and LeBron

-Stats are important, but equally overstated

Knicks honestly should have won the 94 NBA Finals ... they had the Rockets beat and on the ropes, if John Starks shoots even 30% from the field for game 7, the Knicks win, he somehow managed to have an 11% from the field game, lmao. Can't even make that shit up.

If Jordan didn't retire I think they do win again because that Bulls team honestly probably would've been the most talented Bulls squad in their run overall. BJ Armstrong was still there with Horace Grant but you add Toni Kukoc as well, that's better than the '96 Bulls, Rodman wasn't as good as Grant + Armstrong combined.

[John8204]

The 77' Ring is the greatest championship of all-time.

Shaquille O'Neal was not the most dominant player of all-time, rather he was the most toxic that cost his teams more titles than he won.

Paul Arizin, Dolph Schayes, and George Mikan all belong in respective top ten lists based on positions.

The Basketball Hall of Fame needs to recognize Iggy, Robert Horry, Bill Laimbeer, Mark Jackson, Derek Fisher, and AC Green

[Phoenix]

Knicks honestly should have won the 94 NBA Finals ... they had the Rockets beat and on the ropes, if John Starks shoots even 30% from the field for game 7, the Knicks win, he somehow managed to have an 11% from the field game, lmao. Can't even make that shit up.

If Jordan didn't retire I think they do win again because that Bulls team honestly probably would've been the most talented Bulls squad in their run overall. BJ Armstrong was still there with Horace Grant but you add Toni Kukoc as well, that's better than the '96 Bulls, Rodman wasn't as good as Grant + Armstrong combined.

I definitely give the 94 Bulls that title, for all the reasons you said. They had 70 win potential talent-wise, but I think alot of what drove the 96 Bulls/MJ to reach that level was the loss to Orlando. Coming off the 93 title they wouldn't have had the same motivation, but they would have benefited from the roster upgrades, Pippen/BJ/Grant basically all hitting their stride and a still-prime 31 year old MJ.

The 95 season though? If Grant ends up leaving anyway, they're too exposed on the front-line against the likes of Shaq and Hakeem. You also figure going for a 5th straight, there's gonna be some fatigue/injury or general malaise that does them in.

[Phoenix]

Knicks honestly should have won the 94 NBA Finals ... they had the Rockets beat and on the ropes, if John Starks shoots even 30% from the field for game 7, the Knicks win, he somehow managed to have an 11% from the field game, lmao. Can't even make that shit up.

If Jordan didn't retire I think they do win again because that Bulls team honestly probably would've been the most talented Bulls squad in their run overall. BJ Armstrong was still there with Horace Grant but you add Toni Kukoc as well, that's better than the '96 Bulls, Rodman wasn't as good as Grant + Armstrong combined.

I definitely give the 94 Bulls that title, for all the reasons you said. They had 70 win potential talent-wise, but I think alot of what drove the 96 Bulls/MJ to reach that level was the loss to Orlando. Coming off the 93 title they wouldn't have had the same motivation, but they would have benefited from the roster upgrades, Pippen/BJ/Grant basically all hitting their stride and a still-prime 31 year old MJ.

The 95 season though? If Grant ends up leaving anyway, they're too exposed on the front-line against the likes of Shaq and Hakeem. You also figure going for a 5th straight, there's gonna be some fatigue/injury or general malaise that does them in.

[jayfan]

The 77' Ring is the greatest championship of all-time.

Shaquille O'Neal was not the most dominant player of all-time, rather he was the most toxic that cost his teams more titles than he won.

Paul Arizin, Dolph Schayes, and George Mikan all belong in respective top ten lists based on positions.

The Basketball Hall of Fame needs to recognize Iggy, Robert Horry, Bill Laimbeer, Mark Jackson, Derek Fisher, and AC Green

+1

Good/interesting takes. My dad still talks that Blazers team.

.

[pandiani17]

The 77' Ring is the greatest championship of all-time.

Shaquille O'Neal was not the most dominant player of all-time, rather he was the most toxic that cost his teams more titles than he won.

Paul Arizin, Dolph Schayes, and George Mikan all belong in respective top ten lists based on positions.

The Basketball Hall of Fame needs to recognize Iggy, Robert Horry, Bill Laimbeer, Mark Jackson, Derek Fisher, and AC Green

I don't agree with the titles part (he won 4 after all), but he should have won the MVP in 2001-2005 or so and be in the GOAT conversation. He was too lazy to do that, though. Anyway, here are my takes:

-Tim Duncan is Top-5 all-time and should be in GOAT conversations.
-If Derrick Rose didn't get injured he would won more Regular Season MVPs and also a championship with the Bulls.
-The 2004 Pistons were as good as the 2008 Celtics, but the players don't milk that ring as much as the Celtics' players.

[pandiani17]

The 77' Ring is the greatest championship of all-time.

Shaquille O'Neal was not the most dominant player of all-time, rather he was the most toxic that cost his teams more titles than he won.

Paul Arizin, Dolph Schayes, and George Mikan all belong in respective top ten lists based on positions.

The Basketball Hall of Fame needs to recognize Iggy, Robert Horry, Bill Laimbeer, Mark Jackson, Derek Fisher, and AC Green

I don't agree with the titles part (he won 4 after all), but he should have won the MVP in 2001-2005 or so and be in the GOAT conversation. He was too lazy to do that, though. Anyway, here are my takes:

-Tim Duncan is Top-5 all-time and should be in GOAT conversations.
-If Derrick Rose didn't get injured he would won more Regular Season MVPs and also a championship with the Bulls.
-The 2004 Pistons were as good as the 2008 Celtics, but the players don't milk that ring as much as the Celtics' players.

[Full Court]

Weird, OP. Why didn't you include your unpopular opinions that the 2020 Heat were better than the 2025 Pacers? Or that Tom Brady is the biggest choker in NBA history?

:lol

[John8204]

I don't agree with the titles part (he won 4 after all), but he should have won the MVP in 2001-2005 or so and be in the GOAT conversation. He was too lazy to do that, though. Anyway, here are my takes:

-Tim Duncan is Top-5 all-time and should be in GOAT conversations.
-If Derrick Rose didn't get injured he would won more Regular Season MVPs and also a championship with the Bulls.
-The 2004 Pistons were as good as the 2008 Celtics, but the players don't milk that ring as much as the Celtics' players.

Orlando would have won multiple titles if he was loyal, Lakers would have won more, Heat would have won more, Celtics would have won more. But he was too lazy/toxic and sabotaged those organizations and teams

[1987_Lakers]

I find it crazy how the two bad calls that went against Utah are never brought up when discussing Game 6

Titles/team results are very overrated when evaluating players

Iggy was the most deserving choice for FMVP

Dirk's 2011 title run is very overrated

Giannis had a top 10 peak of all time

I think that's how most people felt at the time. As the years have gone by, people who never watched or forgot details of that series just assume Iggy shouldn't have won it because they look at the raw stats in that series. I remember Curry getting clamped by Dellavedova at certain points, Warriors were struggling. The moment Iggy got into the starting lineup it changed everything.

[SouBeachTalents]

I think that's how most people felt at the time. As the years have gone by, people who never watched or forgot details of that series just assume Iggy shouldn't have won it because they look at the raw stats in that series. I remember Curry getting clamped by Dellavedova at certain points, Warriors were struggling. The moment Iggy got into the starting lineup it changed everything.
It's genuinely the biggest revisionist history of a subject I can remember. You go back to any thread at the time and Iggy was getting majority support for FMVP over Curry. Now people look at the boxscore and act like that was some complete robbery, that series is a very good example of when stats can be deceptive, or don't tell the whole story.

[Im Still Ballin]

Like Thorpesaurous, I'd take peak McHale over Barkley, Malone, and Dirk. I'd also take him over Davis & maybe even Giannis and KG. I highly value his two-way impact - the rim protection, the defensive versatility, and the resilient half-court post offense. I'd rank him on par with Dirk as the best on offense and only clearly below Duncan and Garnett on defense. Here's how it'd look if I had to rank by tiers:

OFFENSE
Tier 1: Dirk, McHale
Tier 2: Barkley, Davis, Giannis, Duncan
Tier 3: Malone, Garnett

DEFENSE
Tier 1: Duncan, Garnett
Tier 2: Davis, Giannis, McHale
Tier 3: Malone, Dirk, Barkley


I think they're both a little overrated. Malone is a better defender, but he's an on ball defender. He wasn't a good help defender at all for a PF. And offensively, he's consistent, but he lacked the creativity that most great players had.
Barkley is an anomaly. He's as difficult a cover as the leagues probably ever seen. Too quick and crafty for PFs, and too strong for SFs. And at times, he was quicker and had more ball skills than even SFs, and could overpower even the best PFs. But defensively, his size was always an issue. He had to go after everything, shots and rebounds, so much, that he was often out of position. It wasn't as much an issue of effort as it's made out to be. At his peak, I'd definitely take him over Malone. But I don't think either of them is as good as Duncan, or even McHale.


Duncan's game most resemble's McHales. And my preference for both of them stems from their both being better at defending the rim. Obviously there's a lot of projection with McHale not being a number one option, but none of the other guys would have been either with Bird on their team. And only Duncan has proven that he could win it on his own, so if Mchale were a number one option on a team, he wouldn't have to even win a title to prove he was in the neighborhood of Malone and Barkley. Barkley is clearly the hardest to defend in the group.


I know I'm in limited company with my opinion of McHale, and that's completely understandable. It's just something I've believed for a long time. And I don't put much weight into any of those kinds of quotes that players make. But it's always fun to read Barkley's ramblings, and Andrew Toney was a monster.


In terms of historical achievement, it's obviously Malone.

But as someone who saw both guys, if it were my team I'd take McHale in a heartbeat. McHale is one of the most unique ability vs. numbers guys ever because of how much he bent himself for the good of the team.

Malone to me was maybe the best player ever at getting and making the easy shots. Weather it was using his physicality to get way deep in the post to make an easy shot. Outrunning his opponent, which he's really underrated at. And obviously just finding space in that pick and roll. But his game lacked much in the way of counters. If those handful of things were taken away, he didn't adjust well.

McHale's post game could serve as an offensive foundation. It would've been nice had he been a better passer, but that to me is a smaller sin. And defensively the gap is enormous. McHale has a great rep as a rim protector, but is underrated as a perimeter guy before he destroyed his ankle playing through the playoffs on a broken foot.

My fondness of McHale is admittedly higher than pretty much anyone. I'd take him over Barkley for similar defensive reasons. And I'd consider him over Garnett, who's an all time defender and an excellent offensive player, but his game on that end has some of the same flaws as Malone's in that while it's very versatile, it lacked some of the forcefulness that McHale's post game had that feels more foundational.

McHale would be a fascinating player as a center in the current league. He could be a switching machine. Something like Jo Noah on that end, and a more efficient Zack Randolph on the other.


I am saying Malone isn't an offensive foundation. And I know that seems weird considering the ridiculous number of points he scored.

But it's your second point that is the reason. I do care how easy the points were, because it's exactly that reason that I have concerns running an offense through him. And I think it defines some of his post season failures because teams knew they could change looks at him and effect his play. I think that's the reason so many of the big situations those Jazz teams were in, the ball wound up in Stockton or even Jeff Hornacek's hands. They may make a decision to go to Karl, but it was more often or not their decision.

And like I said, if we're doing a historical list, some kind of a ranking, then Malone is clearly ahead. But if I'm running the team and I get to choose between these two skill sets, I'd take McHale.


Originally Posted by Thorpesaurous View Post
http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/sho...1#post14733610

McHale injured his foot that season and was never quite the same defender. This young McHale could switch onto perimeter guys about as effectively as any big I've ever seen, like in the KG range. I think McHale is criminally underrated, not in terms of historically, like achievement wise, but in terms of skill set. I would personally take him over Barkley and Karl Malone. And because of his post game consistency, I could be talked into over KG, from a team building perspective, if you caught me on the right night. His numbers just don't pop because of the quality of team he played on. The only real weakness is he wasn't a great passer. It was in him. You'd see it in spots. But there was so much ball going around on that team, and he was so good in the post, that when it did get into him, it didn't often come out. I think he could stretch his range out some, and would be a more willing passer in a different setting, and would be a great center in the modern game, because he'd score super efficiently with the spacing, and he'd be super switchable defensively.



McHale is tricky, because of the careers of other guys he can't possibly rank above 7 or so. But if I'm starting a team, I'd take him over most of the guys ranked ahead of him based on his peak and particular skill set.

In response to:


People usually have Duncan as the greatest PF of all time... then there's the giant mess of trying to rank KG, Dirk, Barkley and Malone (lately it seems KG and Dirk are more often than not placed above Barkley and Malone due to the spectacular second half of their careers, but it's still close enough to be debatable). Throw in Bob Pettit somewhere and you've got 6 PFs in the 25ish greatest players of all time.

But where do you rank Kevin McHale, who used to be seen as one of the all-time greatest at the position? Is he your next on the list? How would you round out your top 10 all time PF list?

Just to set the context, Kevin McHale is a 7 time all-star, 3 time champion, 2 time 6th man of the year, 3 time member of the all defensive first team, and widely acknowledged as one of the (if not the) greatest low post scorers in the history of the game, including a year scoring 26 ppg on 66 TS% (the words "second option" don't do him justice, and he probably would have been the first option on most teams... certainly he would be on most teams today).

[1987_Lakers]

- Magic should have won FMVP in '88, probably not unpopular, but nobody ever talks about it.

- Kobe wouldn't even be top 20 if he never played for the Lakers, maybe not even top 25.

- Dennis Rodman gets praised for his cancerous ways as a player. Shouldn't have made top 75.

- Jason Kidd is the GOAT defensive PG

- Steve Nash's back to back MVPs were deserving. Shaq in particular has made it a mission campaigning that they were not.

[Im Still Ballin]

Dirk probably should've won MVP in 2005-06.

[j3lademaster]

The 77' Ring is the greatest championship of all-time.

Shaquille O'Neal was not the most dominant player of all-time, rather he was the most toxic that cost his teams more titles than he won.

Paul Arizin, Dolph Schayes, and George Mikan all belong in respective top ten lists based on positions.

The Basketball Hall of Fame needs to recognize Iggy, Robert Horry, Bill Laimbeer, Mark Jackson, Derek Fisher, and AC Green
The catch 22 with Shaq is that the reason his teams were in positions to compete for titles every season was because he was so dominant in the first place.

[1987_Lakers]

Dirk probably should've won MVP in 2005-06.

I’ll never forget Dirk receiving his ‘07 MVP award just days after losing to the 8th seed Warriors in the first round.

[1987_Lakers]

https://youtu.be/6YLRpSM77X8

[highwhey]

Like Thorpesaurous, I'd take peak McHale over Barkley, Malone, and Dirk. I'd also take him over Davis & maybe even Giannis and KG. I highly value his two-way impact - the rim protection, the defensive versatility, and the resilient half-court post offense. I'd rank him on par with Dirk as the best on offense and only clearly below Duncan and Garnett on defense. Here's how it'd look if I had to rank by tiers:

OFFENSE
Tier 1: Dirk, McHale
Tier 2: Barkley, Davis, Giannis, Duncan
Tier 3: Malone, Garnett

DEFENSE
Tier 1: Duncan, Garnett
Tier 2: Davis, Giannis, McHale
Tier 3: Malone, Dirk, Barkley

do you just go around saving people's posts? this is some weird level obsession considering this forum has no search function.

[Axe]

It's genuinely the biggest revisionist history of a subject I can remember. You go back to any thread at the time and Iggy was getting majority support for FMVP over Curry. Now people look at the boxscore and act like that was some complete robbery, that series is a very good example of when stats can be deceptive, or don't tell the whole story.
Lol those same people also probably tried to prop up his two high-scoring games in the 2021 play-ins where his team ended up losing. Can't win at all without a decent sidekick. Same story goes for other superstars as well.

[Im Still Ballin]

do you just go around saving people's posts? this is some weird level obsession considering this forum has no search function.

I used the DuckDuckGo search engine to find all McHale threads on ISH. There's like less than ten, and Thorpesaurous has posted the same take on several of them. He's a highly respected poster who I believe played college ball. I think his opinion is worth mentioning if it aligns with my perspective.

Google sucks for searching ISH.

[John8204]

The catch 22 with Shaq is that the reason his teams were in positions to compete for titles every season was because he was so dominant in the first place.

He "dominated" until he came across a better team and then he got swept. He got swept 7 or 8 times..Wilt gets trashed for "choking" but he was losing long series to super teams.

[Full Court]

That the thunder ended up being the 4th-6th seed in 2023, even though it's bright as daylight that it never happened at all.

Yeah, I remember when you said that. It was a completely idiotic take, but not at all surprising coming from you. Probably one of the reasons you were voted dumbest poster in ISH history.

[rmt]

I’ll never forget Dirk receiving his ‘07 MVP award just days after losing to the 8th seed Warriors in the first round.

Yes - bittersweet. Perfect example of why they should announce MVP earlier.

[1987_Lakers]

Yeah, I remember when you said that. It was a completely idiotic take, but not at all surprising coming from you. Probably one of the reasons you were voted dumbest poster in ISH history.

I didn't know what he was talking about, but the way you responded just confirms it was something you said, lol.

[L.Kizzle]

I'll start.

- Shawn Kemp was the best defender on the '96 Sonics, even over Gary Payton who won DPOY that season.
Shawn Kemp was an underrated defender. Most people rate big man defense higher than perimeter defense.

[1987_Lakers]

Shawn Kemp was an underrated defender. Most people rate big man defense higher than perimeter defense.

Not only that, but when Marcus Smart won DPOY, it was pretty obvious during the Finals that Robert Williams was Boston's best defender.

[L.Kizzle]

The 77' Ring is the greatest championship of all-time.

Shaquille O'Neal was not the most dominant player of all-time, rather he was the most toxic that cost his teams more titles than he won.

Paul Arizin, Dolph Schayes, and George Mikan all belong in respective top ten lists based on positions.

The Basketball Hall of Fame needs to recognize Iggy, Robert Horry, Bill Laimbeer, Mark Jackson, Derek Fisher, and AC Green
When you say recognize, do you mean voted in as a player or as a contributor?
There are certain player like Wayne Embry voted in not as a player but as a contributor (even though he had a case to make it as a player.)

Should Derek Fisher be recognized over someone like Marques Johnson?

[Full Court]

I didn't know what he was talking about, but the way you responded just confirms it was something you said, lol.

:roll: Nice try. Bronie fluffers just keep on taking Ls.

[L.Kizzle]

Like Thorpesaurous, I'd take peak McHale over Barkley, Malone, and Dirk. I'd also take him over Davis & maybe even Giannis and KG. I highly value his two-way impact - the rim protection, the defensive versatility, and the resilient half-court post offense. I'd rank him on par with Dirk as the best on offense and only clearly below Duncan and Garnett on defense. Here's how it'd look if I had to rank by tiers:

OFFENSE
Tier 1: Dirk, McHale
Tier 2: Barkley, Davis, Giannis, Duncan
Tier 3: Malone, Garnett

DEFENSE
Tier 1: Duncan, Garnett
Tier 2: Davis, Giannis, McHale
Tier 3: Malone, Dirk, Barkley
McHale would lead his teams to many 44-win seasons of he didn't have Bird, Parish and Dennis Johnson on his squad.

Switch Kevin McHale with Buck Williams on the Nets in the 80s and those are the wins he getting.

[Wally450]

I truly don't believe that Zaza purposely put his foot underneath Kawhi's ankle.

People gave Zaza so much shit for that and not a peep was made when LMA did it to Klay in a game later that series.

It was because Kawhi was ballin on the Warriors and the injury changed the entire series and he missed the remainder of the series.

[Axe]

I didn't know what he was talking about, but the way you responded just confirms it was something you said, lol.
vvv

Yeah, it wouldn't surprise me if they make somewhere 4th-6th seed this year. Solid team.
:oldlol:


I truly don't believe that Zaza purposely put his foot underneath Kawhi's ankle.

People gave Zaza so much shit for that and not a peep was made when LMA did it to Klay in a game later that series.

It was because Kawhi was ballin on the Warriors and the injury changed the entire series and he missed the remainder of the series.
The clip showing it surely looked suspicious though. At least kawhi was able to avenge that loss in the 2019 finals but pachulia wasn't there anymore.

[SouBeachTalents]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VSkBTLdNhv0&ab_channel=TheYoungManandTheThree

Lue made what I think is a great point regarding the infamous AI stepover. He calls him Doug Collins by mistake, but if Marv Albert doesnt have his emphatic "Then steps OVER Tyronn Lue" call, you could make a valid argument that play doesn't become nearly as iconic as it did.

[Full Court]

vvv

:oldlol:


The clip showing it surely looked suspicious though. At least kawhi was able to avenge that loss in the 2019 finals but pachulia wasn't there anymore.

^Throwing a bitch fit because he got outed for being borderline retarded. Minus the borerline.

:lebronamazed:

Dumbest. poster. in. ISH. history.

[StrongLurk]

Jokic is better than Bird ever was.

[Phoenix]

I don't agree with the titles part (he won 4 after all), but he should have won the MVP in 2001-2005 or so and be in the GOAT conversation. He was too lazy to do that, though. Anyway, here are my takes:

-Tim Duncan is Top-5 all-time and should be in GOAT conversations.
-If Derrick Rose didn't get injured he would won more Regular Season MVPs and also a championship with the Bulls.
-The 2004 Pistons were as good as the 2008 Celtics, but the players don't milk that ring as much as the Celtics' players.

I don't think that's an unpopular take, or at least not a controversial one. Frankly he ticks all the boxes but for whatever reason when people talk about all-time peaks, I never see his name mentioned. But just look at his first 6-7 years. Dude was like an MVP level, all-NBA performer out the gate and winning titles from his 2nd year. One could argue his prime coinciding with the Shaq/Kobe Lakers probably cost him 2 titles.

His lack of flash and understated personality have unfairly cost him legacy points, because frankly he SHOULD be top 5. Like his career wasn't any worse than someone like Bird or Magic, but he doesn't get the 'they saved the NBA' boost that those two gate( which is not to say they're undeserving, just that Duncan rightly belongs in that class of player in terms of floor impact, individual and team accolades).

[Axe]

Orlando would have won multiple titles if he was loyal, Lakers would have won more, Heat would have won more, Celtics would have won more. But he was too lazy/toxic and sabotaged those organizations and teams
https://i.ibb.co/SXmzJnfD/Screenshot-20250703-235925.jpg (https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRPZqPRPHIF2xVI5uiUFQ7DcZyo3SNqM MQAlw&usqp=CAU)

[Tavr]

Knicks honestly should have won the 94 NBA Finals ... they had the Rockets beat and on the ropes, if John Starks shoots even 30% from the field for game 7, the Knicks win, he somehow managed to have an 11% from the field game, lmao. Can't even make that shit up.

If Jordan didn't retire I think they do win again because that Bulls team honestly probably would've been the most talented Bulls squad in their run overall. BJ Armstrong was still there with Horace Grant but you add Toni Kukoc as well, that's better than the '96 Bulls, Rodman wasn't as good as Grant + Armstrong combined.

The Knicks could have absolutely beat Houston, but John Starks had a knack for coming up short in big games.

All of that is beside the point though. If Chicago isnt ousted in 1994, they likely are in 95 versus Houston who had also just acquired Drexler (nevermind the fact Houston and especially Hakeem always matched up well vs Chicago). At some point fatigue and burnout play a factor, and I dont see the Bulls running the tables for 5 straight.

That's one finals 90s fans were definitely robbed of.

[Phoenix]

The Knicks could have absolutely beat Houston, but John Starks had a knack for coming up short in big games.

All of that is beside the point though. If Chicago isnt ousted in 1994, they likely are in 95 versus Houston who had also just acquired Drexler (nevermind the fact Houston and especially Hakeem always matched up well vs Chicago). At some point fatigue and burnout play a factor, and I dont see the Bulls running the tables for 5 straight.

That's one finals 90s fans were definitely robbed of.

It makes you wonder...if they win 91-94( so 4 straight), then lose to Houston....do they still win 96-98? Like, how much did MJ being away for 94 and most of 95 preserve his legs for that 2nd run? Or maybe they win 96 and 97 but have nothing left for 98. Interesting to see a 'what if' scenario where MJ doesn't retire and what that means for the championship picture from 93-98.

[John8204]

When you say recognize, do you mean voted in as a player or as a contributor?
There are certain player like Wayne Embry voted in not as a player but as a contributor (even though he had a case to make it as a player.)

Should Derek Fisher be recognized over someone like Marques Johnson?

Fisher is number 2 all time in playoff wins, Jackson is top ten in assits, Laimbeer has 5 championships, Green has the consecutive start record, Horry has the most titles of any living player, Iggy has a medal, four rings and an MVP. Those men belong in the Hall

[L.Kizzle]

Fisher is number 2 all time in playoff wins, Jackson is top ten in assits, Laimbeer has 5 championships, Green has the consecutive start record, Horry has the most titles of any living player, Iggy has a medal, four rings and an MVP. Those men belong in the Hall

You didn't answer the question.
Are they going in as a player or as a contributor? There are many ways to be voted in as a Hall of Famer.

And, you're saying AC Green should be in the Hall of Fame over Amare Stoudemire because he played in 1000+ consecutive games?

[Xiao Yao You]

Fisher is number 2 all time in playoff wins, Jackson is top ten in assits, Laimbeer has 5 championships, Green has the consecutive start record, Horry has the most titles of any living player, Iggy has a medal, four rings and an MVP. Those men belong in the Hall
Lambieer and jackson maybe. Thecrest :facepalm

[Im Still Ballin]

McHale would lead his teams to many 44-win seasons of he didn't have Bird, Parish and Dennis Johnson on his squad.

Switch Kevin McHale with Buck Williams on the Nets in the 80s and those are the wins he getting.

Bruh, don't disrespect peak McHale. You know what he scored in the playoffs from 1984-85 to 1987-88?

- 23.2 ppg
- 58.3% FG (120 FG+)
- 80.1% FT & 48.0% FTr
- 58.3% 2PT (118 2PT+)
- 64.0% TS (119 TS+)

A 77-game sample against incredibly tough opposition. The East in the '80s was like the West in the '00s and '10s. And yet, Kevin's scoring and efficiency went UP in the postseason. No defensive scheme or matchup could affect him. In that sense, only 2008-2011 Dirk compares.

[L.Kizzle]

Bruh, don't disrespect peak McHale. You know what he scored in the playoffs from 1984-85 to 1987-88?

- 23.2 ppg
- 58.3% FG (120 FG+)
- 80.1% FT & 48.0% FTr
- 58.3% 2PT (118 2PT+)
- 64.0% TS (119 TS+)

A 77-game sample against incredibly tough opposition. The East in the '80s was like the West in the '00s and '10s. And yet, Kevin's scoring and efficiency went UP in the postseason. No defensive scheme or matchup could affect him. In that sense, only 2008-2011 Dirk compares.
It didn't go up against Jeff Ruland tho.

[John8204]

You didn't answer the question.
Are they going in as a player or as a contributor? There are many ways to be voted in as a Hall of Famer.

And, you're saying AC Green should be in the Hall of Fame over Amare Stoudemire because he played in 1000+ consecutive games?

Not "over" Stoudemire but the value the Hall places on media awards and statistics over accomplishments is ridiculous

This season only 11 players managed to play the full season...Green did it for 3 decades

[Norcaliblunt]

Goal tending should be allowed.

Hockey and soccer are exciting because each goal is epic. Even football.

Basketball will become the most exciting sport in the world when dudes are taking it to 7 foot plus goal tenders every game creating posters.

[Im Still Ballin]

It didn't go up against Jeff Ruland tho.

I guess he was busy switching on to 1987 Michael Jordan and blocking his mid-range jump shot.

https://i.ibb.co/twHdF4Mg/391bfa2a3f714bbd8987aaf03eabb89a.gif

[Norcaliblunt]

AC green was just as good if not better than Rodman.

An Iron Man holier than thou player you can count on versus a demon team cancer who needed Goat players and coaches just to get dude to show up????

Easy Ac Green

[bullettooth]

Coaches are wildly overrated.

[ShawkFactory]

Not "over" Stoudemire but the value the Hall places on media awards and statistics over accomplishments is ridiculous

This season only 11 players managed to play the full season...Green did it for 3 decades

While very impressive, it was one accomplishment..

Was he ever even an allstar? I don't think you can put someone in the HOF who was a role player his whole career, despite the reliability.

[L.Kizzle]

I guess he was busy switching on to 1987 Michael Jordan and blocking his mid-range jump shot.

https://i.ibb.co/twHdF4Mg/391bfa2a3f714bbd8987aaf03eabb89a.gif

I used to block people half a foot shorter than me as well.

[Norcaliblunt]

Phoenix wins the chip in 2011 if they resign Amare.

[Im Still Ballin]

I used to block people half a foot shorter than me as well.

Don't act like you're not impressed.

[Norcaliblunt]

None of these are unpopular opinions just modest moderate bullshit.

[Im Still Ballin]

I guess he was busy switching on to 1987 Michael Jordan and blocking his mid-range jump shot.

https://i.ibb.co/twHdF4Mg/391bfa2a3f714bbd8987aaf03eabb89a.gif

Oh, would you look at that, another block on His Airness from the same game. Mike tried to take it to the rim this time.

https://i.ibb.co/kVk13wZj/fc2ce05d8f124a29a1e82d79ef6cd24e.gif

[Nowoco]

Shaquille O'Neal was not the most dominant player of all-time, rather he was the most toxic that cost his teams more titles than he won.


Agree with this.

Gary Payton is the most underrated player of all-time.

The 96-98 Utah Jazz were the second best team of the 90s and I'm not talking about out of teams who didnt win a chip, I'm talking second best period.

Robert Horry should be in the Hall of Fame.

[Tavr]

It makes you wonder...if they win 91-94( so 4 straight), then lose to Houston....do they still win 96-98? Like, how much did MJ being away for 94 and most of 95 preserve his legs for that 2nd run? Or maybe they win 96 and 97 but have nothing left for 98. Interesting to see a 'what if' scenario where MJ doesn't retire and what that means for the championship picture from 93-98.

Does Horace Grant leave if MJ never retires? Assuming Chicago has him for 95 it would have definitely made a difference versus Shaq and Orlando. Ditto against Houston. If not though? Then I really don't see how they overcome Orlando's frontline, but if they happened to, its just to meet Houston and overcome theirs. Tall task. Like you also mentioned, its pretty difficult to imagine a reality where Chicago isnt exhausted and running on fumes.

Assuming MJ never retired, I wouldn't bank on them making it all the way to 98. Much less winning it all (as they were constructed).

[Xiao Yao You]

While very impressive, it was one accomplishment..

Was he ever even an allstar? I don't think you can put someone in the HOF who was a role player his whole career, despite the reliability.

He was voted in once to karl malones dismay so not really

[L.Kizzle]

Robert Horry should be in the Hall of Fame.
For what?

[LAL]

Mike D'antoni's system made every point guard look better than they actually were

[Tavr]

Mike D'antoni's system made every point guard look better than they actually were

+1

[L.Kizzle]

Mike D'antoni's system made every point guard look better than they actually were
Who were some of his PGs besides Nash?

[Overdrive]

I think the impact of starplayers is overstated by almost everyone to some degree and thus I think every star player gets overrated. Even Jordan, Lebron etc.

Nobody can win alone, but people pit players against each as if they did.

[Xiao Yao You]

For what?


For showing up after the all star break

[L.Kizzle]

For showing up after the all star break

What about before All-Star Break?
Robert Horry has hit only 3 clutch shots in his career. Big Shot Bob is pretty mutch exaggerated.
One in Houston vs Spurs
Lakers vs Kings
Spurs vs Pistons

Robert Horry was the main piece in the Barkley to Houston trade and stunk up the joint for half a season. Was so bad in Phoenix they asked for Ced Ceballos back lol.

[ShawkFactory]

None of these are unpopular opinions just modest moderate bullshit.

It’s called a unpopular opinion, not a ridiculous statement that has no fundamental place even existing in the game.

Yea let’s make basketball a different sport. UNPOPULAR!

[Tavr]

Who were some of his PGs besides Nash?

Pretty sure Harden ran point a couple of years in Houston

https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/17644562/james-harden-becomes-full-point-guard-houston-rockets
https://www.statmuse.com/nba/ask/what-season-did-james-harden-play-point-guard

His numbers being inflated and/or overrated isn't exactly an unpopular opinion.

[SouBeachTalents]

It’s called a unpopular opinion, not a ridiculous statement that has no fundamental place even existing in the game.

Yea let’s make basketball a different sport. UNPOPULAR!
I genuinely can't tell if he's a troll or not, he constantly makes the absolute dumbest posts :lol

[Tavr]

I genuinely can't tell if he's a troll or not, he constantly makes the absolute dumbest posts :lol

I'm pretty open minded when it comes to basketball, but ya those posts were crazy lol

[L.Kizzle]

Pretty sure Harden ran point a couple of years in Houston

https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/17644562/james-harden-becomes-full-point-guard-houston-rockets
https://www.statmuse.com/nba/ask/what-season-did-james-harden-play-point-guard

His numbers being inflated and/or overrated isn't exactly an unpopular opinion.

Damn, forget he coached the Rockets and I'm here in Houston lol.

[Xiao Yao You]

What about before All-Star Break?
Robert Horry has hit only 3 clutch shots in his career. Big Shot Bob is pretty mutch exaggerated.
One in Houston vs Spurs
Lakers vs Kings
Spurs vs Pistons

Robert Horry was the main piece in the Barkley to Houston trade and stunk up the joint for half a season. Was so bad in Phoenix they asked for Ced Ceballos back lol.

Didnt come to play until after the all star break. Sounds like a hofer to me

[L.Kizzle]

Didnt come to play until after the all star break. Sounds like a hofer to me

Put in Steve Kerr and Tayshaun Prince the Hall as well. Bruce Bowen, Vinnie Johnson.

[Phoenix]

Does Horace Grant leave if MJ never retires? Assuming Chicago has him for 95 it would have definitely made a difference versus Shaq and Orlando. Ditto against Houston. If not though? Then I really don't see how they overcome Orlando's frontline, but if they happened to, its just to meet Houston and overcome theirs. Tall task. Like you also mentioned, its pretty difficult to imagine a reality where Chicago isnt exhausted and running on fumes.

Assuming MJ never retired, I wouldn't bank on them making it all the way to 98. Much less winning it all (as they were constructed).

Even with Grant in 95 I just don't think they beat Houston ( maybe they squeeze past Orlando). You're talking a team that pretty much would have had 6 deep playoff runs by then (assuming they win in 94, the 91-93 titles, and back to back ECFs in 89 and 90). But I'm figuring Grant staying around also means they don't land Rodman in 96, and he was a crucial part of that 96 run ( especially since he could play Shaq straight up for large stretches so Chicago could stay home on Orlando's shooters, and of course he was huge in the finals against Seattle).

[L.Kizzle]

Sam Jones doesn't get enough recognition for the Celtics Dynasty. Was probably the 2nd most important player after Russell. They didn't miss a beat after Cousy retired.

[GOBB]

I'll start.

- Shawn Kemp was the best defender on the '96 Sonics, even over Gary Payton who won DPOY that season.

Bwahahahahahaha let me guess. Can I? Can I? Ok here i go…

Def rtg! DEF RTG DEF RTG DEF RTG!!!


smh

[GOBB]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VSkBTLdNhv0&ab_channel=TheYoungManandTheThree

Lue made what I think is a great point regarding the infamous AI stepover. He calls him Doug Collins by mistake, but if Marv Albert doesnt have his emphatic "Then steps OVER Tyronn Lue" call, you could make a valid argument that play doesn't become nearly as iconic as it did.

Yeah no. The world is watching this series and saw AI step over Lue after Lue was guarding AI rather tightly which was noticeable to anyone who saw the matchup. No one even mentions the call. The optics is what everyone remembers. The still photo.

[warriorfan]

I find it crazy how the two bad calls that went against Utah are never brought up when discussing Game 6

Titles/team results are very overrated when evaluating players

Iggy was the most deserving choice for FMVP

Dirk's 2011 title run is very overrated

Giannis had a top 10 peak of all time


I think that's how most people felt at the time. As the years have gone by, people who never watched or forgot details of that series just assume Iggy shouldn't have won it because they look at the raw stats in that series. I remember Curry getting clamped by Dellavedova at certain points, Warriors were struggling. The moment Iggy got into the starting lineup it changed everything.


It's genuinely the biggest revisionist history of a subject I can remember. You go back to any thread at the time and Iggy was getting majority support for FMVP over Curry. Now people look at the boxscore and act like that was some complete robbery, that series is a very good example of when stats can be deceptive, or don't tell the whole story.

:roll:

This is mental illness.

[Baller234]

I don't think that's an unpopular take, or at least not a controversial one. Frankly he ticks all the boxes but for whatever reason when people talk about all-time peaks, I never see his name mentioned. But just look at his first 6-7 years. Dude was like an MVP level, all-NBA performer out the gate and winning titles from his 2nd year. One could argue his prime coinciding with the Shaq/Kobe Lakers probably cost him 2 titles.

His lack of flash and understated personality have unfairly cost him legacy points, because frankly he SHOULD be top 5. Like his career wasn't any worse than someone like Bird or Magic, but he doesn't get the 'they saved the NBA' boost that those two gate( which is not to say they're undeserving, just that Duncan rightly belongs in that class of player in terms of floor impact, individual and team accolades).

Duncan doesn't get mentioned in the pantheon discussions because he wasn't always the go-to guy offensively. He COULD be the guy on any given and definitely WAS the guy for a lot of it... but for some of those championship runs you also remember Parker and Manu being the guy.

Fair or not fair, it's held against him. Especially when he's being compared to players who were "the guy" every time they were on the floor.

[Phoenix]

Duncan doesn't get mentioned in the pantheon discussions because he wasn't always the go-to guy offensively. He COULD be the guy on any given and definitely WAS the guy for a lot of it... but for some of those championship runs you also remember Parker and Manu being the guy.

Fair or not fair, it's held against him. Especially when he's being compared to players who were "the guy" every time they were on the floor.

That doesn't seem to held against Magic, who was the main offensive guy for 2 of his 5 runs( and even by the time Kareem got old, Worthy had several series of being the leading scorer even after Magic became 'the guy'), or Bill Russell who was primarily defensive-oriented and wasn't 'the guy' offensively, and at some point people understood that while he warrants a place in the pantheons, 11 titles is such an era-specific thing that it would be impossible to duplicate( like Wilt scoring 500ppg) and needs to be contextualized. Kevin Mchale had a few playoff series where he led the team in scoring or he was damn near equal to Bird's output. Frankly, MJ is the only player in the generally recognized top 10 who led his team's scoring in every single playoff series.

That's just not a talking point that should carry any serious weight with Duncan. He shouldn't be perceived as less deserving of that status because he adjusted his game to let others shine. He probably could have forced always being the leading scorer if his ego required it, and if he was blessed with the foreknowledge that ceding a bit of scoring to teammates would have taken him out of these pantheon conversations years later ( and may have even lost them a title or two but hey, he scored more than anything else while losing!). Even in a year like 2007, Duncan was still the leading scorer for the season and playoffs for that run. Tony Parker doesn't end up in the position to win finals MVP if Duncan isn't there anchoring the entire thing. I mean the guy carried the team's scoring AND defense for pretty much a decade. Anyone saying 'well he wasn't always the go to guy' on the back-nine, especially when you look at the totality of his career, frankly shouldn't be discussing basketball.

[rmt]

Duncan doesn't get mentioned in the pantheon discussions because he wasn't always the go-to guy offensively. He COULD be the guy on any given and definitely WAS the guy for a lot of it... but for some of those championship runs you also remember Parker and Manu being the guy.

Fair or not fair, it's held against him. Especially when he's being compared to players who were "the guy" every time they were on the floor.

IMO, your memory is faulty. Duncan was the main offensive player for 4 of the Spurs' 5 rings - and had they won in 2013, he would have picked up another FMVP.

2005 RS
Duncan 20.3 pts 11.1 rebs 49.6%FG
Parker 16.4 pts 6.1 assts 48.2%FG
Manu 16 pts 3.9 assts 47.1%FG

2005 Playoffs
Duncan 23.6 pts 12.4 rebs 46.4%FG
Parker 17.2 pts 4.3 asst 45.4%FG
Manu 20.8 pts 4.2 asst 50.7%FG

2007 RS
Duncan 20 pts 10.6 rebs 54.6%FG
Manu 16.5 pts 3.5 asst 46.4%FG
Parker 18.6 pts 5.5 asst 52%FG

2007 Playoffs
Duncan 22.2 pts 11.5 rebs 52.1%FG
Manu 16.7 pts 3.7 asst 40.1%FG
Parker 20.8 pts 5.8 asst 48%FG

2013 NBA Finals
Duncan 18.9 pts 12.1 rebs
Parker 15.7 pts 6.4 asst
Kawhi 14.6 pts 11.1 rebs
Manu 11.6 pts 4.3 asst

[LAL]

Who were some of his PGs besides Nash?

Harden wasn't playing the same way for Mchale before D'antoni. He loved playing for him, did miracles for his numbers.

And Jeremy Lin had no chance of getting in the nba but was lucky the knicks were desperate enough to give him a 10day and even luckier it was Mike D'antoni and they had no point guards and injuries. Even Chris Duhon would get a triple double here and there.

Steve Nash would've been Dallas Steve Nash without D'antoni. We know he was a great shooter and incredible passer in transition but very slow, not the greatest handles, bad defender etc.. nowhere near the greatest pg's, Mark Price level if it wasn't for D'antoni. Dude was a 14ppg 11apg type player, couldn't win and only gets praised as if he made shawn marion and stoudamire all stars.. Marbury did that and he was actually better but that's life.

[dankok8]

I'll start.

- Shawn Kemp was the best defender on the '96 Sonics, even over Gary Payton who won DPOY that season.

Actually the best defender on those Sonics teams may have been Nate McMillan.

[warriorfan]

Actually the best defender on those Sonics teams may have been Nate McMillan.

Even though the creator admits it’s a flawed stat, I’m pretty sure Nate McMillan has the highest DBPM ever. Or he’s really far up there at least.

[Xiao Yao You]

Harden wasn't playing the same way for Mchale before D'antoni. He loved playing for him, did miracles for his numbers.

And Jeremy Lin had no chance of getting in the nba but was lucky the knicks were desperate enough to give him a 10day and even luckier it was Mike D'antoni and they had no point guards and injuries. Even Chris Duhon would get a triple double here and there.

Steve Nash would've been Dallas Steve Nash without D'antoni. We know he was a great shooter and incredible passer in transition but very slow, not the greatest handles, bad defender etc.. nowhere near the greatest pg's, Mark Price level if it wasn't for D'antoni. Dude was a 14ppg 11apg type player, couldn't win and only gets praised as if he made shawn marion and stoudamire all stars.. Marbury did that and he was actually better but that's life.

Marbury was more talented not better

[GOBB]

Actually the best defender on those Sonics teams may have been Nate McMillan.

Best defender but didn’t play many minutes? Maybe he had an Alex Caruso impact. I remember him being a good defender for sure. Never felt he was the best on those teams.

[Xiao Yao You]

Best defender but didn’t play many minutes? Maybe he had an Alex Caruso impact. I remember him being a good defender for sure. Never felt he was the best on those teams.

Most versatile anyway. Could play and defend 3 positions

[LAL]

Marbury was more talented not better
NJ/Phoenix Marbury was actually better than Dallas Nash, There's nothing Nash did Marbury
couldn't, not vice versa honestly. I can only imagine many good to great point guards playing
on that same team in the same system.

[post]

:facepalm

from a certain perspective he is

i also believe jordan is goat but that's not unpopular

same for lebron

[Xiao Yao You]

NJ/Phoenix Marbury was actually better than Dallas Nash, There's nothing Nash did Marbury
couldn't, not vice versa honestly. I can only imagine many good to great point guards playing
on that same team in the same system.

He didnt do winning better. Could have stuck with kg and went down as a great. Instead only china and you see it that way

[Baller234]

IMO, your memory is faulty. Duncan was the main offensive player for 4 of the Spurs' 5 rings - and had they won in 2013, he would have picked up another FMVP.

2005 RS
Duncan 20.3 pts 11.1 rebs 49.6%FG
Parker 16.4 pts 6.1 assts 48.2%FG
Manu 16 pts 3.9 assts 47.1%FG

2005 Playoffs
Duncan 23.6 pts 12.4 rebs 46.4%FG
Parker 17.2 pts 4.3 asst 45.4%FG
Manu 20.8 pts 4.2 asst 50.7%FG

2007 RS
Duncan 20 pts 10.6 rebs 54.6%FG
Manu 16.5 pts 3.5 asst 46.4%FG
Parker 18.6 pts 5.5 asst 52%FG

2007 Playoffs
Duncan 22.2 pts 11.5 rebs 52.1%FG
Manu 16.7 pts 3.7 asst 40.1%FG
Parker 20.8 pts 5.8 asst 48%FG

2013 NBA Finals
Duncan 18.9 pts 12.1 rebs
Parker 15.7 pts 6.4 asst
Kawhi 14.6 pts 11.1 rebs
Manu 11.6 pts 4.3 asst

You're helping to make my point. The gap in scoring isn't big at all. It goes to show you that offensively it wasn't just Timmy and his backup band.

There were plenty of games and plenty of crunch time moments where it was Parker or Manu taking over.

[LAL]

He didnt do winning better. Could have stuck with kg and went down as a great. Instead only china and you see it that way
Sure but Nash didn't win either, with Dirk or those amazing Phoenix lineups.

Anyway i'm sure Nash has gotten 2x mvp level better after the age of 32 with his
14/11 and Jobless undrafted Jeremy Lin just jumped off his friends couch to average
25/9 for nine straight games for the ****ing Knicks.

[Phoenix]

You're helping to make my point. The gap in scoring isn't big at all. It goes to show you that offensively it wasn't just Timmy and his backup band.

There were plenty of games and plenty of crunch time moments where it was Parker or Manu taking over.

It actually makes the point that Duncan typically paced the team in scoring while also anchoring the defense, and Manu/Parker's scoring were ancillary by-products of that. They simply didn't have the same across the board responsibility and overall impact, and as said earlier your criticism can be levied against any GOAT level player in some form except MJ. He's literally the only top 10 player who was always his teams leading scorer for the season and every playoff series. Take a look at Duncan's basketball reference page. Literally, his final season at 40 is the ONLY time he wasn't either on the MVP ballot, an all-star, all NBA or all-defense. Scaling back his scoring so that other teammates can shine( and result in more chips) is an unfair and extremely vacuous criticism.

[Xiao Yao You]

Sure but Nash didn't win either, with Dirk or those amazing Phoenix lineups.

Anyway i'm sure Nash has gotten 2x mvp level better after the age of 32 with his
14/11 and Jobless undrafted Jeremy Lin just jumped off his friends couch to average
25/9 for nine straight games for the ****ing Knicks.

Suns were close. Marbury got his cba rings!!!

[SouBeachTalents]

:roll:

This is mental illness.
It's just the facts bro, Curry being robbed of FMVP in 2015 is complete revisionist history. Look at what was being said at the time, and this isn't even factoring in Curry not receiving a single vote for FMVP.

https://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?t=1392234

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?379344-Who-s-GSW-s-Finals-MVP-thus-far

https://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=1392999&view=viewpoll

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CHrSQ7FUEAAYyEJ.jpg

[Tavr]

Damn, forget he coached the Rockets and I'm here in Houston lol.

:lol


Even with Grant in 95 I just don't think they beat Houston ( maybe they squeeze past Orlando). You're talking a team that pretty much would have had 6 deep playoff runs by then (assuming they win in 94, the 91-93 titles, and back to back ECFs in 89 and 90). But I'm figuring Grant staying around also means they don't land Rodman in 96, and he was a crucial part of that 96 run ( especially since he could play Shaq straight up for large stretches so Chicago could stay home on Orlando's shooters, and of course he was huge in the finals against Seattle).

Agree on all counts. When I mentioned Grant "making a difference", I was thinking more along the lines of helping versus the tall timber. Actually stopping Shaq and/or Hakeem is another story. Don't think they win in 95 either way.

[GOBB]

Most versatile anyway. Could play and defend 3 positions

Yeah I remember his ability to guard 3 positions. Nate was definately a dog on defense.

[LAL]

Suns were close. Marbury got his cba rings!!!

Suns were close! No finals but close.

Damn forgot Marbury had a pretty great career in both NBA and China, won a professional
basketball championship too.

[Xiao Yao You]

Suns were close! No finals but close.

Damn forgot Marbury had a pretty great career in both NBA and China, won a professional
basketball championship too.

I think a couple and maybe even a statue

[Phoenix]

:lol



Agree on all counts. When I mentioned Grant "making a difference", I was thinking more along the lines of helping versus the tall timber. Actually stopping Shaq and/or Hakeem is another story. Don't think they win in 95 either way.

Yeah. Plus Horry was the starting PF on the 95 Rockets as a stretch 4, so presumably while he was nimble enough to close out on the perimeter, that also takes him out of the paint leaving the Bulls even more vulnerable. The Rockets in general were a tough matchup for Chicago, though I don't subscribe to the idea that their regular season record (Houston dominated the H2H during those years) means they automatically beats Chicago in every instance. There were younger, fresher versions of the Bulls that I would take in a playoff matchup against the 95 Rockets, namely 92, 93, and 94. But we agree that by 95 the accumulation of all those deep prior runs and physical matchups against the likes of Detroit and NY would have likely taken its toll.

[LAL]

I think a couple and maybe even a statue

I know and Nash doesn't have a professional men's basketball championship. Not even a finals
trip for such a great.

I was being sarcastic in previous post

[iamgine]

Any version of Team USA / Dream Team is a lot worse than a good NBA team.

[Phoenix]

Any version of Team USA / Dream Team is a lot worse than a good NBA team.

So, for example, last years Team USA is worse than the current Knicks?

[iamgine]

So, for example, last years Team USA is worse than the current Knicks?

Yes

[Baller234]

It actually makes the point that Duncan typically paced the team in scoring while also anchoring the defense, and Manu/Parker's scoring were ancillary by-products of that. They simply didn't have the same across the board responsibility and overall impact, and as said earlier your criticism can be levied against any GOAT level player in some form except MJ. He's literally the only top 10 player who was always his teams leading scorer for the season and every playoff series. Take a look at Duncan's basketball reference page. Literally, his final season at 40 is the ONLY time he wasn't either on the MVP ballot, an all-star, all NBA or all-defense. Scaling back his scoring so that other teammates can shine( and result in more chips) is an unfair and extremely vacuous criticism.

Did Duncan "scale back" his scoring so that other could shine or did he actually need those players to lean on in those moments? Maybe it's both. Either way I agree it's not a valid criticism because the goal is to win and not score.

But that's not the question. The question is how come his name doesn't get tossed around with guys like MJ, Kobe, Bron, Bird, Magic, etc. despite being so consistent and winning so many championships. Personally I just think it comes down to the eye test. Duncan had the fundamentals but you could make the argument there wasn't anything "special" to his game. He beats you but he does so quietly and methodically.

What else can it be? It's not like there's some wild conspiracy to derail Duncan's legacy. He was never controversial or offensive and he always made himself easy to like. I just think the greatness of those other players is more obvious and pronounced. There was something more special about their game that was more visible to the naked eye.

[Phoenix]

Did Duncan "scale back" his scoring so that other could shine or did he actually need those players to lean on? Maybe it's both. Either way I agree it's not a valid criticism because the goal is to win and not score.

But that's not the question. The question is how come his name doesn't get tossed around with guys like MJ, Kobe, Bron, Bird, Magic, etc. despite being so consistent and winning so many championships. Personally I just think it comes down to the eye test. Duncan had the fundamentals but you could make the argument there wasn't anything "special" to his game. He beats you but he does so quietly and methodically.

What else can it be? It's not like there's some wild conspiracy to derail Duncan's legacy. He was never controversial or offensive and he always made himself easy to like. I just think the greatness of those other players is more obvious and pronounced. There was something more special about their game that was more visible to the naked eye.

I know what the question was, since I asked it. And I've never heard the premise that he's not part of the greater GOAT conversation because he ceded scoring 10 years into his career until you brought it up. Maybe I'm not in the circles where that's a talking point. You ask if he needed to lean on those players but who was he leaning on in like, 2003? 2nd year Parker? Rookie Manu? Robinson who retired after they won? Who's to say it wasn't a greater strategic move to spread out scoring a bit because it increased the chances of the team being a consistent contender vs forcing the ball into Duncan to drop 25 a night? Who's to say its not the inverse of your point where it was his presence that opened up the game for them to score more, instead of it being a reliance? Duncan proved himself before those two came into the league. You're arguing the chicken or the egg.

His game wasn't flashy nor was his personality, and I think that is mostly why he tends to be overlooked. But this notion that this is the case because Manu and Parker took on greater scoring roles as he aged? Sorry, not buying that for a dollar. Maybe to appreciate Duncan, you have to be more clued into the nuances of the game and not as gullible to a more casual eye of who looks great on sport-center highlight reels, but that's not a failing on his part.

[Phoenix]

Yes

I see. Someone else will have the strength on this fine Friday afternoon to give that one energy.

[warriorfan]

It's just the facts bro, Curry being robbed of FMVP in 2015 is complete revisionist history. Look at what was being said at the time, and this isn't even factoring in Curry not receiving a single vote for FMVP.

https://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?t=1392234

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?379344-Who-s-GSW-s-Finals-MVP-thus-far

https://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=1392999&view=viewpoll

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CHrSQ7FUEAAYyEJ.jpg

No one cares about low iq lebron stan opinions.

[LAL]

I know what the question was, since I asked it. And I've never heard the premise that he's not part of the greater GOAT conversation because he ceded scoring 10 years into his career until you brought it up. Maybe I'm not in the circles where that's a talking point. You ask if he needed to lean on those players but who was he leaning on in like, 2003? 2nd year Parker? Rookie Manu? Robinson who retired after they won? Who's to say it wasn't a greater strategic move to spread out scoring a bit because it increased the chances of the team being a consistent contender vs forcing the ball into Duncan to drop 25 a night? Who's to say its not the inverse of your point where it was his presence that opened up the game for them to score more, instead of it being a reliance? Duncan proved himself before those two came into the league. You're arguing the chicken or the egg.

His game wasn't flashy nor was his personality, and I think that is mostly why he tends to be overlooked. But this notion that this is the case because Manu and Parker took on greater scoring roles as he aged? Sorry, not buying that for a dollar. Maybe to appreciate Duncan, you have to be more clued into the nuances of the game and not as gullible to a more casual eye of who looks great on sport-center highlight reels, but that's not a failing on his part.

I hate bron stans and how hard you guys fight for Duncan, Shaq and Pippen.

No you don't have a more "nuanced view and better eye" than the guy who said Duncan wasn't as special offensively than the top 5 and some others.

What's wrong with you bron stans, even Spurs fans don't defend him like this. You do it for lebum's legacy, we know.

[Tavr]

No one cares about low iq lebron stan opinions.

Not sure they're LeBron stans who took to those polls, but even at that time, I remember there being a lot of debate on Curry being robbed. Saying thats "revisionist history" is completely incorrect. And ironically revisionism. I personally think Steph shouldlve won it just based on the criteria they've used since Jerry West.

Gotta wonder why they went astray?

[Phoenix]

I hate bron stans and how hard you guys fight for Duncan, Shaq and Pippen.

No you don't have a more "nuanced view and better eye" than the guy who said Duncan wasn't as special offensively than the top 5 and some others.

What's wrong with you bron stans, even Spurs fans don't defend him like this. You do it for lebum's legacy, we know.

Bitch shut the fukk up. You trying to spin every conversation and person here into a 'Bron stan' is corny as hell. You act like he and Rich Paul ran bukkake on someone in your family. Is that what this is about? I don't and never have given a shit about Lebron James and as I said to you in another topic, you constantly bringing him up in discussions where there's not even a hint of him being discussed is about you, nobody else.

[LAL]

Bitch shut the fukk up. You trying to spin every conversation and person here into a 'Bron stan' is corny as hell. You act like he and Rich Paul ran bukkake on someone in your family. Is that what this is about? I don't and never have given a shit about Lebron James and as I said to you in another topic, you constantly bringing him up in discussions where there's not even a hint of him being discussed is about you, nobody else.

Sure bro tim duncan didn't need help from
Parker Manu or Kawhi and he could've averaged
35 past his prime but didn't want to. Great
eye compared to us sportscenter hightlight watchers.

[Phoenix]

Sure bro tim duncan didn't need help from
Parker Manu or Kawhi and he could've averaged
35 but didn't want to. Great eye compared to us
Sportscenter hightlight watchers.

Who said he didn't need help? Which all-timer hasn't? Again, whatever prompts you to drag Lebron into spaces where there's zero reason to is your problem.

[warriorfan]

Not sure they're LeBron stans who took to those polls, but even at that time, I remember there being a lot of debate on Curry being robbed. Saying thats "revisionist history" is completely incorrect. And ironically revisionism. I personally think Steph shouldlve won it just based on the criteria they've used since Jerry West.

Gotta wonder why they went astray?

Agreed. I was going to ignore those posts but when they started talking about revisionist history….that was just a bridge too far.

The reason they went astray? Well it’s an award voted by the media, and the media crafts their narratives they think will be the most popular. In this case it’s an all about Lebron James narrative. Some of them tried to give the MVP to him, but a lot ended up giving it to iggy which was pretty much a low key vote for Lebron. Iggy winning it was a way of the media circling it back around and making everything still about James.

[LAL]

Who said he didn't need help? Which all-timer hasn't? Again, whatever prompts you to drag Lebron into spaces where there's zero reason to is your problem.


Who's to say it wasn't a greater strategic move to spread out scoring a bit because it increased the chances of the team being a consistent contender vs forcing the ball into Duncan to drop 25 a night? Who's to say its not the inverse of your point where it was his presence that opened up the game for them to score more, instead of it being a reliance? Duncan proved himself before those two came into the league. You're arguing the chicken or the egg.

His game wasn't flashy nor was his personality, and I think that is mostly why he tends to be overlooked. But this notion that this is the case because Manu and Parker took on greater scoring roles as he aged? Sorry, not buying that for a dollar. Ma
No need to discredit his fmvp teammates and Manu. Even Danny Green almost won it in 2013. You guys just pick and choose who you want to defend.

[Hey Yo]

If Reinsdorf didn't own the White Sox.... no way Jordan walks away in the middle of his Bulls contract and look for a team who might hopefully sign him.

With Jerry owning the White Sox, MJ gets to be the highest paid minor leaguer by still collecting his Bulls checks.

Then MLB goes on strike. Jerry isn't going to just let Mike do nothing and still collect checks so he has no choice but to comeback to play for the Bulls the remainder of the 1995 season.

[Hey Yo]

Agreed. I was going to ignore those posts but when they started talking about revisionist history….that was just a bridge too far.

The reason they went astray? Well it’s an award voted by the media, and the media crafts their narratives they think will be the most popular. In this case it’s an all about Lebron James narrative. Some of them tried to give the MVP to him, but a lot ended up giving it to iggy which was pretty much a low key vote for Lebron. Iggy winning it was a way of the media circling it back around and making everything still about James.

15-66

[Phoenix]

No need to discredit his fmvp teammates and Manu.

Except that's not discrediting them. It's saying that Manu and Parker's contributions to those teams from the mid 2000s on doesn't diminish Duncan's greatness. It's saying that featuring Manu and Parker in scoring diversified the team offense, and made them more dangerous than forcing the ball into Duncan and kept them a contender over 15 years. Ballers argument was that Duncan needed to lean on those guys scoring, and my counter was to say why isn't it the inverse? Where is the line drawn between Duncan opening up the game for those guys, vs him benefiting from them? And even if its the latter, why does that make him any less great? Magic isn't less great because Worthy won the 88 finals MVP and often led the team in scoring. Bird isn't less great because he had years with Mchale averaging 26 a night. And if the net result of sharing the ball more was they won a title, isn't that the point? So yes, there is nuance here and then there is boiling things down to very simple, low hanging fruit talking points. Not to discount that Baller himself doesn't even agree with the idea that the extent of Duncan's greatness depends on the roles Manu and Parker played as the years passed, he's just saying this is his perception of why OTHERS downplay him.

None of that undermines that Duncan was 15x all-nba, 15x all-defense, 2 time MVP just in terms of individual accolades, and won two titles with Finals MVPs before Manu or Parker become anything else to all-star caliber players. So you can take away the final 2 rings that he didn't win FMVP for because you want to assign greater credit to Parker/Manu/Kawhi, and his career is still comfortably top 10. It's weird for a Kobe/LA fan to downplay how good he was to push a narrative that he's being overrated to boost Lebron. Really fukking weird, but do you.

[Norcaliblunt]

It’s called a unpopular opinion, not a ridiculous statement that has no fundamental place even existing in the game.

Yea let’s make basketball a different sport. UNPOPULAR!

Ok let’s just regurgitate the same wannabe edgy takes fools have had for 20 plus years?

Stfu sucker.

[Norcaliblunt]

Here’s an unpopular opinion.

Jordan, LeBron, and Kobe are all not top 5.

Let’s go pages.

[fsvr54]

Lebron and Giannis are allowed to travel and push-off on most drives of their career. They're not as good as they are manufactured.

Almost ALL players carry the ball on every single dribble.

[Phoenix]

Lebron and Giannis are allowed to travel and push-off on most drives of their career. They're not as good as they are manufactured.

Almost ALL players carry the ball on every single dribble.

Shit that's like the opposite of unpopular lol. That's a pretty widely held viewpoint. I mean, almost 'all' players and 'every' dribble is a bit over the top, but alot of today's moves are definitely only possible because they've swallowed the whistle on alot of things that would have been considered a travel/carry years ago.

[Tavr]

Agreed. I was going to ignore those posts but when they started talking about revisionist history….that was just a bridge too far.

The reason they went astray? Well it’s an award voted by the media, and the media crafts their narratives they think will be the most popular. In this case it’s an all about Lebron James narrative. Some of them tried to give the MVP to him, but a lot ended up giving it to iggy which was pretty much a low key vote for Lebron. Iggy winning it was a way of the media circling it back around and making everything still about James.

Its a bizarre claim considering MOST people here watched that series, and likely argued it on this very forum. :lol Sports talk shows around the freaking world debated whether Iguodala deserved it. I'm not going to say it was some elaborate "Pro LeBron" conspiracy, but you are 100% correct with them pushing a narrative. Back in 2015, LeBron was wildfire when it pertained to driving NBA interest.

[warriorfan]

Its a bizarre claim considering MOST people here watched that series, and likely argued it on this very forum. :lol Sports talk shows around the freaking world debated whether Iguodala deserved it. I'm not going to say it was some elaborate "Pro LeBron" conspiracy, but you are 100% correct with them pushing a narrative. Back in 2015, LeBron was wildfire when it pertained to driving NBA interest.

Yes. It was very controversial at the time. Acting like it was hands down Iguodala in June of 2015 and anyone questioning it now is “revisionist history” is just insane and laughable. Even more so because the posters who were peddling that were legit watching at the time and were there. It’s revisionist history calling what really happened revisionist history. Lol.

I’m not saying it’s any sort of conspiracy really. If Media guys think they are going to get more views by crafting a narrative a certain way, they will do it. Like you said LeBron in 2015 was the cash cow in this regard.

The actual narrative that a team that came out of nowhere got to the Finals and faced a Lebron James superteam who had some untimely injuries was not the most compelling storyline. They would rather craft it as a LeBron vs all odds and he was going to find a way to win somehow until Iguodala miraculously steps up to deny him. That’s not what happened but it is way more dramatic and sells better.

9/10 times the answer is money.

[1987_Lakers]

The only reason it was controversial in your mind is because you prematurely made a "Curry Finals MVP" celebration thread moments before they gave it to Iggy.

LeBron got more FMVP votes than Curry, in fact Curry didn't receive a single vote.:oldlol:

[warriorfan]

The only reason it was controversial in your mind is because you prematurely made a "Curry Finals MVP" celebration thread moments before they gave it to Iggy.

LeBron got more FMVP votes than Curry, in fact Curry didn't receive a single vote.:oldlol:

Yeah, that’s the only reason.

Not like he dictated blitz traps from 30 feet out all game every game and still managed to beat them.

You talked about box score earlier which is hilarious because Steph is one of the number one guys where it comes to box scores not showing his true value due to his goat spacing and goat number of hockey assists which don’t get recorded.

You try to craft this “shut down by delly narrative” which is ridiculous since he was being hard doubled every time in half court situations from way behind the 3 point line. Trying to imply delly shut him down individually is just inaccurate and disingenuous. The entire Cavs team defensive gameplan was to deny Curry at any cost and let the others beat us. Guess what even with the strat to go all in on Curry. Klay Thompson scored under 16 ppg on an absolutely dreadful, worse than allen iverson, 51% TS.

Yet you guys wanna glaze Thompson as best second option ever when he can’t score 16 ppg on league average efficiency while Curry is legit getting double teamed 24/7.

You are a clown.

[1987_Lakers]

The 77' Ring is the greatest championship of all-time.

One of the most impressive for sure.

Blazers played and beat the two best defensive teams in the league during the first two rounds, a peak Kareem in the WCF & a stacked Sixers team in the Finals after being down 0-2.

[warriorfan]

Steph scored 26 ppg on 59% TS while seeing aggressive double teams the entire series and Lebron stans try to fade him

Klay scores under 10 points less on 51% TS while seeing wide open looks and the same guys glaze him as this next level elite second option

Lebron stans are literally the worst

[Hey Yo]

I remember they were neck and neck, KD and Steph," Young recalled on a recent episode of "Gil's Arena," featuring host Gilbert Arenas. "And then Steph had one bad game and KD was hitting. [In the] locker room, Steph's head was down, damn near in tears -- after a win.

"He wanted to win that [award]. KD was trying to give it to him. KD had won it the year before so he was trying to give it to him. But Steph couldn't make a shot. He had like the lowest he's scored in the Finals. But it was a sweep."

https://x.com/GilsArenaShow/status/1800671137111941171?s=19

[rmt]

Sure bro tim duncan didn't need help from
Parker Manu or Kawhi and he could've averaged
35 past his prime but didn't want to. Great
eye compared to us sportscenter hightlight watchers.

If I missed a Spurs' game, looked at the box score and Duncan had more than 20/10, I knew that he had to step it up because his teammates were sucking that night. TD didn't care about scoring - he cared about winning. All great players need help, and he had the patience to WAIT a long time for Manu, Parker and Kawhi (all so raw) to mature.

His was a career of sustained excellence (sans 2011 when he had plantar fasciitis and suffering from Pop's fascination with Bonner/Blair). Plus hearing that Richard Jefferson commentate the entire NBA Finals reminded me of those "lost" drought years, but TD stuck it out and was rewarded with the icing on the cake - a beautiful 2014 Finals.

[warriorfan]

I remember they were neck and neck, KD and Steph," Young recalled on a recent episode of "Gil's Arena," featuring host Gilbert Arenas. "And then Steph had one bad game and KD was hitting. [In the] locker room, Steph's head was down, damn near in tears -- after a win.

"He wanted to win that [award]. KD was trying to give it to him. KD had won it the year before so he was trying to give it to him. But Steph couldn't make a shot. He had like the lowest he's scored in the Finals. But it was a sweep."

https://x.com/GilsArenaShow/status/1800671137111941171?s=19

You are the only guy I know with an IQ lower than Nick Young. :roll:

[rmt]

You are the only guy I know with an IQ lower than Nick Young. :roll:

LOL - since I'm not a guy and you obviously don't know me, it's questionable what you know about my IQ.

My apologies, Warriorfan. Blame it on old eyes - bleary in the morning.

[L.Kizzle]

Penny Hardaways peak is overrated. I'm supposed to get excited over 20/7/4 over 2 seasons.

Maurice Stokes career and tragedy should get mentioned more often.

[Manny98]

Gobert, bum, cotm, sloan, stockton... you all know :rockon:

So what is your actual take?

Anyways

2017 Cavs are the best offensive team in NBA history and would beat 90% of teams that won a championship they got unlucky and ran into the greatest team of all time

Curry deserved finals MVP in both 2015 & 2017

The top Euro league teams can beat the top NBA teams in a 7 game series

[Xiao Yao You]

Cant quit me!

[1987_Lakers]

I'll start.

- Shawn Kemp was the best defender on the '96 Sonics, even over Gary Payton who won DPOY that season.

Best player on those Sonics teams as well.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ud4RNjjwg_8


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RfDmNdN-8FA

[Nowoco]

Penny Hardaways peak is overrated. I'm supposed to get excited over 20/7/4 over 2 seasons.


20pts was a lot for anyone back then, almost unheard of for a PG. Plus the way he orchestrated that team and the athleticism was off the chart. A complete unicorn.

[97 bulls]

Basketball fans are the most inconsistent in their line of reasoning when it comes to their logic about how they perceive players. 90-95 percent debate like a female would.

[L.Kizzle]

20pts was a lot for anyone back then, almost unheard of for a PG. Plus the way he orchestrated that team and the athleticism was off the chart. A complete unicorn.
Tim Hardaway avg 23 and 11 and couldn't dunk.

[warriorfan]

LOL - since I'm not a guy and you obviously don't know me, it's questionable what you know about my IQ.

My apologies, Warriorfan. Blame it on old eyes - bleary in the morning.

Was posting at Hey Yo, not you

[Nowoco]

Tim Hardaway avg 23 and 11 and couldn't dunk.

Taking a lot more shots and with less efficiency. Run TMC may as well have had Mike D'Antoni coaching them.

[L.Kizzle]

Taking a lot more shots and with less efficiency. Run TMC may as well have had Mike D'Antoni coaching them.

46 % ain't that bad when shooting five 3's in like 1991. Unheard of back then lol.

[warriorfan]

Taking a lot more shots and with less efficiency. Run TMC may as well have had Mike D'Antoni coaching them.

Timmy was a beast and had the best non carry crossover.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mEULrOSvmXY

Funniest thing about this I think it was a preseason game. He was a competitor in every sense of the word and that goes along way.

[guy]

If Jordan doesn’t get hurt, the 02 Wizards would’ve made the playoffs and could’ve realistically gotten to the Finals, only to get destroyed by the Lakers. Has just as much, if not more to do with how incredibly weak the East was as it does to do with Jordan’s greatness.

[Phoenix]

Penny Hardaways peak is overrated. I'm supposed to get excited over 20/7/4 over 2 seasons.

Maurice Stokes career and tragedy should get mentioned more often.

Eh, I mean I was always of the view that Grant Hill was a hair better in the mid/late 90s and just had a bit more size and versatility to go with comparable athleticism. But I wouldn't go as far as saying Penny's peak was overrated, for no other reason that he didn't really have one. Unless you're saying the best we saw from him is what you're calling overrated? Penny was 24 for the 96 season, Derrick Rose was 23 his MVP year, Tmac was 23 for the 03 season. We really never got to see the 'peaks' of any of them. Penny's peak should have really started at the exact time his knees went out, around 98 or so. Maybe he does benefit a bit from the 'what if' aspect of things, but we can't act like there wasn't a period in that 95/96 timeframe when he was matching up with Jordan and Pippen and not giving them the business at times.

We saw in real time how good he actually was 2-3 years in without boiling it down to the numbers you dropped. And he gave a glimpse of what he was capable of when Shaq was out for part of the 96 season, 26/6/5 in 28 games. It's very obvious he was well-positioned to be the leagues best guard and probably the league's face (or it would have been him and Hill battling for that) bridging the 2nd phase of MJs career and when Kobe took off.

[plowking]

If Jordan doesn’t get hurt, the 02 Wizards would’ve made the playoffs and could’ve realistically gotten to the Finals, only to get destroyed by the Lakers. Has just as much, if not more to do with how incredibly weak the East was as it does to do with Jordan’s greatness.


So a hypothetical that didn't come close to occuring is a statement to Jordan's greatness?

Right.

[Mask the Embiid]

Most players in the nba couldnt function without a pick. They would be helpless even with handchecking and playing physical defense banned. They need switches and or screens to score.


If the nba ever banned PnR a lot of your favorite players would be out of the league within 3 years.

[Norcaliblunt]

Jordan vs LeBron vs Curry vs Pippen vs your mom 12 plus pages of so called unpopular opinions.

Y’all are a disgrace to the human race.

[1987_Lakers]

Sam Jones doesn't get enough recognition for the Celtics Dynasty. Was probably the 2nd most important player after Russell. They didn't miss a beat after Cousy retired.

Prime for prime Hal Greer may have been better. Better all-around for sure.

I was doing some research on Greer years ago and was surprised how well his defense was regarded. Jones was just a scorer.

[Baller234]

Eh, I mean I was always of the view that Grant Hill was a hair better in the mid/late 90s and just had a bit more size and versatility to go with comparable athleticism. But I wouldn't go as far as saying Penny's peak was overrated, for no other reason that he didn't really have one. Unless you're saying the best we saw from him is what you're calling overrated? Penny was 24 for the 96 season, Derrick Rose was 23 his MVP year, Tmac was 23 for the 03 season. We really never got to see the 'peaks' of any of them. Penny's peak should have really started at the exact time his knees went out, around 98 or so. Maybe he does benefit a bit from the 'what if' aspect of things, but we can't act like there wasn't a period in that 95/96 timeframe when he was matching up with Jordan and Pippen and not giving them the business at times.

We saw in real time how good he actually was 2-3 years in without boiling it down to the numbers you dropped. And he gave a glimpse of what he was capable of when Shaq was out for part of the 96 season, 26/6/5 in 28 games. It's very obvious he was well-positioned to be the leagues best guard and probably the league's face (or it would have been him and Hill battling for that) bridging the 2nd phase of MJs career and when Kobe took off.

Yea this is why I hate hyper focusing on stats. Penny is one of the most special players my eyes have seen in my 32 years watching basketball.

The word that comes to mind with Penny for me is "poise". Whenever he had the ball you just trusted him to make the right decision. Plus he could beat you 1 on 1.

He always looked like he had total control of the game.

[1987_Lakers]

'92 Dream Team would lose against the 2012 USA Basketball team

- Peak LeBron
- Peak CP3
- Kobe

KD & Carmelo who were monsters in international play.

Only weak spot was their big men. But Chandler was coming off a DPOY award.

[Nowoco]

'92 Dream Team would lose against the 2012 USA Basketball team

- Peak LeBron
- Peak CP3
- Kobe

KD & Carmelo who were monsters in international play.

Only weak spot was their big men. But Chandler was coming off a DPOY award.

You say that so flippantly. They would have no answer to absolute prime David Robinson and Ewing. Not to mention Malone.

[1987_Lakers]

You say that so flippantly. They would have no answer to absolute prime David Robinson and Ewing. Not to mention Malone.

Chandler doesn't bring much offense but at least he is a proven defender and a big body you could throw at D-Rob/Ewing. I can see LeBron not doing so bad on Malone. Can't imagine Magic guarding CP3. Bird would be damn near unplayable guarding LeBron, Durant, & Melo.

What people have to keep in mind is that Durant & Melo were probably better international players than NBA players, especially Melo.

2012 team has more shooting and more versatile defenders from top to bottom. The '92 team had 4-5 players who got heavy minutes who could be defensive liabilities at times, especially Magic & Bird.

[Xiao Yao You]

Than you play pippen, stockton, mullin, drexler, barkley, mj. They had plenty of options

[Full Court]

'92 Dream Team would lose against the 2012 USA Basketball team

- Peak LeBron
- Peak CP3
- Kobe

KD & Carmelo who were monsters in international play.

Only weak spot was their big men. But Chandler was coming off a DPOY award.

Lol no chance.

[E_Stamkos]

'92 Dream Team would lose against the 2012 USA Basketball team

- Peak LeBron
- Peak CP3
- Kobe

KD & Carmelo who were monsters in international play.

Only weak spot was their big men. But Chandler was coming off a DPOY award.

As is the case with most comparisons between eras, it's difficult to assess due to external factors. Are we assuming the Dream Team has all the same evolutionary benefits as those in 2012? Are we playing 90s ball where every top tier team was rolling out an all star center?

Nevertheless, in a 7 game series, it's likely going the distance with these 2 stacked rosters. Interesting to think about though.

[Reggie43]

2012 would get ragdolled inside the paint against Barkley, Malone, Drob and Ewing. Tyson Chandler is not built for that type of competition and wasnt even that good of a defender to begin with.

[John8204]

'92 Dream Team would lose against the 2012 USA Basketball team

- Peak LeBron
- Peak CP3
- Kobe

KD & Carmelo who were monsters in international play.

Only weak spot was their big men. But Chandler was coming off a DPOY award.

Was old Pippen shutting down Kobe in that WCF series?

Magic/Jordon/Pippen/Barkley/Robinson are some big boys

[Phoenix]

The bigs are pretty much the main difference with Dream Team 92 and most of the other teams. The 96 team is the one that would give the 92 bigs all they could handle, with Hakeem, Admiral, Shaq, and late prime Malone/Barkley. Vs the 2012 team, I would be running through Ewing, Robinson, Malone and Barkley from the outset to get the opposing bigs out of the game and open things up for Jordan/Drexler/Pippen to attack the paint with little resistance. The more modern teams would have the edge of incorporating the 3 more, and the pre 2012 teams simply weren't build that way, so it's never an X's and O's matchup with the whole '3>2' aspect of modern basketball.

In these matchups I figure they'd take turns beating each other over a series. Just depends who shows up that given day and which team better executes the X's and O's.

[1987_Lakers]

The bigs are pretty much the main difference with Dream Team 92 and most of the other teams. The 96 team is the one that would give the 92 bigs all they could handle, with Hakeem, Admiral, Shaq, and late prime Malone/Barkley. Vs the 2012 team, I would be running through Ewing, Robinson, Malone and Barkley from the outset to get the opposing bigs out of the game and open things up for Jordan/Drexler/Pippen to attack the paint with little resistance. The more modern teams would have the edge of incorporating the 3 more, and the pre 2012 teams simply weren't build that way, so it's never an X's and O's matchup with the whole '3>2' aspect of modern basketball.

In these matchups I figure they'd take turns beating each other over a series. Just depends who shows up that given day and which team better executes the X's and O's.

Speaking of ‘96. I think they won their games by a bigger margin of victory compared to ‘92. The ‘92 team was obviously great, but some just look at the names on the roster and consider them unstoppable without even bringing up Magic and Bird were past their primes at that point, especially Bird. Both were retired from the NBA at that point.

2012 in my view is basically the perfect FIBA team. They lacked size compared to the 90s teams but that didn’t stop them from handling the Gasol brothers and Ibaka in the gold medal game.

[Nowoco]

Speaking of ‘96. I think they won their games by a bigger margin of victory compared to ‘92. The ‘92 team was obviously great, but some just look at the names on the roster and consider them unstoppable without even bringing up Magic and Bird were past their primes at that point, especially Bird. Both were retired from the NBA at that point.

Magic was only really slightly past his prime. He balled out at the Olympics. He was still really good when he came back in 1996 when he was about 30lbs heavier than his playing weight. The only member of the team that was there because of the name was Bird but that only because his back was shot. He still played well and was efficient.

The 1992 Dream Team had no weakness. Everyone was in their prime, great defenders, unlimited scoring, camaraderie. The full package in every way. The 2012 team was great but as you said, its bigs were Tyson Chandler and college AD. It just can't compare for that reason alone. It can't even compare to 96. The only thing that hurts the 96 Dream Team is that the members of the 92 team on it were slightly worse, older versions of themselves and of course, the best player in the world wasn't on it.

[Phoenix]

I'm surprised as part of MJs comeback tour, he didn't play on that 96 team. That said, the 96 team had prime Pippen, Penny and Grant Hill as established all-nba level guys, Payton coming off the finals and DPOY, Reggie and Richmond for spacing, Stockton was older but he was healthy unlike 92. MJ aside, that's a better overall collection of perimeter guys. Barkley and Malone were older but the Mailman was closer to his prime than Sir Charles was, Hakeem and Robinson weren't quite their 93-95 selves but obviously still elite( and I'd probably take 96 Robinson over his 92 version just from the experience edge), and 24 year old Shaq. I think that team on paper gives the 92 team way more problems, even when you consider the more modern teams perimeter-cetric approach. 92 can't leverage an interior edge on 96.

[guy]

So a hypothetical that didn't come close to occuring is a statement to Jordan's greatness?

Right.

I literally said right before that it has just as much if not more to do with the east being as weak as it was.

Unpopular beliefs usually don’t have a lot of strong evidence behind it. That's why they’re unpopular. That’s kind of the point of the topic. :oldlol:

[1987_Lakers]

1992 team averaged 117 PPG while giving up 74 ppg

2012 team averaged 116 PPG while giving up 83 ppg

'92 Dream team faced 9 NBA players in the Olympics

'12 Team team faced 29 NBA players in the Olympics

[Manny98]

Prime Chris Paul was better than Prime Magic Johnson and would easily have 5 rings if got to play on a team as stacked as the 80s Lakers

[Axe]

Jordan vs LeBron vs Curry vs Pippen vs your mom 12 plus pages of so called unpopular opinions.

Y’all are a disgrace to the human race.
https://i.ibb.co/XZ5qVsYf/Screenshot-20250703-235925.jpg (https://i.ibb.co/RpQNPqx/IMG-20221122-211833.jpg)

[L.Kizzle]

Prime Chris Paul was better than Prime Magic Johnson and would easily have 5 rings if got to play on a team as stacked as the 80s Lakers

Lol, Magic is like a foot taller than dude. Imagine Paul shooting a skyhook over Parish and McHale in the Finals.

[Xiao Yao You]

Lol, Magic is like a foot taller than dude. Imagine Paul shooting a skyhook over Parish and McHale in the Finals.

Imagine him playing center with kareem out. Poor manny :roll:

[1987_Lakers]

Lol, Magic is like a foot taller than dude. Imagine Paul shooting a skyhook over Parish and McHale in the Finals.

Imagine '92 version Magic playing defense.

[Xiao Yao You]

Imagine '92 version Magic playing defense.


When he was retired with hiv

[1987_Lakers]

When he was retired with hiv

Thought we were kinda discussing '92 vs '12.


Idk if the Lakers still win 5 rings with CP3 instead of Magic, but I can see them easily winning at least 3-4 with a healthy CP3.

Lakers were stacked and played in a cake walk conference. Only time the West seemed to have had some legit teams in that era was in '88, Utah & Dallas gave the Lakers hell in those playoffs.

[Xiao Yao You]

Thought we were kinda discussing '92 vs '12.


Idk if the Lakers still win 5 rings with CP3 instead of Magic, but I can see them easily winning at least 3-4 with a healthy CP3.

Lakers were stacked and played in a cake walk conference. Only time the West seemed to have had some legit teams in that era was in '88, Utah & Dallas gave the Lakers hell in those playoffs.

They were so loaded they couldnt win before or after magic. Maybe he made eveyone better? :rolleyes:

[Hey Yo]

Imagine him playing center with kareem out. Poor manny :roll:

Magic playing center that game is a myth. He repped LA on the opening tip and that was the extent of it.

[Hey Yo]

Imagine '92 version Magic playing defense.

Is there any version of Magic playing defense?

[1987_Lakers]

Is there any version of Magic playing defense?

Early 80's Magic wasn't bad. He got way worse as he aged. By the early 90's, he was damn near atrocious.

[Xiao Yao You]

Magic playing center that game is a myth. He repped LA on the opening tip and that was the extent of it.

Him carrying them to a title as a rookie without kareem who couldnt carry them on the sidelines a myth too?

[Hey Yo]

Him carrying them to a title as a rookie without kareem who couldnt carry them on the sidelines a myth too?

Don't care who you think carried who.... just letting you know your post I quoted earlier is a myth.

[Xiao Yao You]

Don't care who you think carried who.... just letting you know your post I quoted earlier is a myth.

Kareem was out. Magic scored 42 or something. Anyone think someone else carried them? :coleman:

[Hey Yo]

Kareem was out. Magic scored 42 or something. Anyone think someone else carried them? :coleman:

Wilkes put up 37-10 and was LA's leading scorer until Magic was getting hacked on purpose which led to FTA's

[Xiao Yao You]

Points are points. Wilkes and kareem werent winning until the rook sgowed up

[sdot_thadon]

20 odd years ago I came to the conclusion that Bill Russell = Ben Wallace just looking at numbers. How stupid young people can be.:facepalm