Most guys in 90s had Stockton > Isiah, so Stockton/Malone is like having Isiah/Duncan

[3ba11]

plus a better producer than Klay at 3rd option (Hornacek), while also having a good defensive cast of Ostertag, Russell, and Shandon Anderson (in addition to all-defenders Stockton & Malone).

so the 98' Jazz were stacked, which is why they "gentlemen" swept Popovich/Duncan/Robinson and Shaq's 4 all-star Lakers.

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/1nl5hzIYWP4?app=desktop

[Hey Yo]

2015 LeBron lost his 2nd and 3rd option but still beat 4 All-Star Atlanta in the ECF.

[3ba11]

2015 LeBron lost his 2nd and 3rd option but still beat 4 All-Star Atlanta in the ECF.


Curry got no credit for beating the injured Cavs in 2015, yet Lebron's biggest accomplishment was beating the injured baby Celtics in 2018 (#13 SRS).

it's called a double standard.

regarding the 15' Hawks (#4 SRS) - JR Smith averaged 18 on 60% against them, so Lebron still never beat a top 5 SRS team with weak scoring & efficiency from a sidekick, aka he never carried weak help over top teams..

[sdot_thadon]

No ****ing body had Stockton over Isaiah in the 90s. He only made the dream team over zeke due to people being in their feelings. Stockton wasn't even really seen as a star he was a role player deluxe like Reeves.

[1987_Lakers]

No ****ing body had Stockton over Isaiah in the 90s. He only made the dream team over zeke due to people being in their feelings. Stockton wasn't even really seen as a star he was a role player deluxe like Reeves.

That's what I was thinking. Sure, most people have Stockton over Isiah now because of his longevity, but highly unlikely that was the case during the 90's.

[sdot_thadon]

That's what I was thinking. Sure, most people have Stockton over Isiah now because of his longevity, but highly unlikely that was the case during the 90's.

It's not even so much the longevity as it is the narrative imo. Zeke has been getting buried since the fall of the badboys and now people dont really see him for what he was during his era. I will say this if I have a dynamic scorer, Stockton is a better fit next to him, he'll stay out of the way and help the main guy get easier buckets and score when called upon. But if i dont have "the guy" im taking Zeke all day every day.

[John8204]

That's what I was thinking. Sure, most people have Stockton over Isiah now because of his longevity, but highly unlikely that was the case during the 90's.

Timing is also a huge factor, 80's had a ton of PG's but not too many legendary PF's. Malone set a new standard for the position and he was chasing Kareem. 00-10 we got more clarity in how you could have a bunch of Malone's but Stocktons were the rare ones.

[Baller234]

The Stockton slurping has really gotten insane, and I hate to say it because I loved Stockton as a player.

[sdot_thadon]

You see the purpose of the revisionist history in the thread title.....I cant beleive anyone who grew up watching 80s-90s ball could ever come to such a conclusion. Its that terrible.

[Full Court]

Stockton/Malone were one of the best duos in NBA history. They tend to get disparaged these days...almost always by Bronie fluffers who try to discredit Jordan's incredible accomplishments.

And the hilarious thing is that all they have to cling to is this phony narrative that "Bu-bu-bu-but Jordan had weak competition!!" When the fact is that the 2020 bubble ring was against the weakest finals team in the modern era, and possible the entire history of the sport.

[SouBeachTalents]

Stockton/Malone were one of the best duos in NBA history. They tend to get disparaged these days...almost always by Bronie fluffers who try to discredit Jordan's incredible accomplishments.

And the hilarious thing is that all they have to cling to is this phony narrative that "Bu-bu-bu-but Jordan had weak competition!!" When the fact is that the 2020 bubble ring was against the weakest finals team in the modern era, and possible the entire history of the sport.
They played together 18 years and won 0 rings, and you can only blame Jordan for 2 of those. Not impressed.

[Phoenix]

In the 90s? It's not even taken as gospel that he's ahead of Isiah now with the full context of their careers. In the 90s Isiah would have been coming off two titles as the best player, several all-star and all-NBA teams( that were cut off after 88 because of politics because he was at least 2nd team level until 90). Stockton in the 90s didn't really distinguish himself from the likes of Tim Hardaway, Kevin Johnson or Mark Price then later Gary Payton, Penny( healthy) and Jason Kidd. He was great but his health and consistency over 20 years accounts for a large part of his GOAT ranking, not because he was viewed as being the defacto best PG in his time. There was never a case where there weren't guys flat-out better or considered on the same level at different points. At their respective bests Isiah was quite clearly a better lead player and scorer on a contender on top of being an all-time elite floor general.

[3ba11]

In the 90s? It's not even taken as gospel that he's ahead of Isiah now with the full context of their careers. In the 90s Isiah would have been coming off two titles as the best player, several all-star and all-NBA teams( that were cut off after 88 because of politics because he was at least 2nd team level until 90). Stockton in the 90s didn't really distinguish himself from the likes of Tim Hardaway, Kevin Johnson or Mark Price then later Gary Payton, Penny( healthy) and Jason Kidd. He was great but his health and consistency over 20 years accounts for a large part of his GOAT ranking, not because he was viewed as being the defacto best PG in his time. There was never a case where there weren't guys flat-out better or considered on the same level at different points. At their respective bests Isiah was quite clearly a better lead player and scorer on a contender on top of being an all-time elite floor general.



1988

Stockton.... 2nd Team All-NBA
Isiaih......... nothing


1989

Stockton.... 2nd Team All-NBA
Isiaih......... nothing


1990

Stockton.... 2nd Team All-NBA
Isiaih......... nothing


1991

Stockton.... 2nd Team All-NBA
Isiaih......... nothing


1992

Stockton.... 2nd Team All-NBA
Isiaih......... nothing


* stockton was also All-Defense every year



^^^ Stockton was considered a phenom for averaging literally 14-15 APG for 5 straight seasons from 88' to 92'... During this period, he averaged 16/14 and 2.9 SPG with 37% on threes and 52% FG overall.

So again, Stockton was considered better than Isiah, which means the duo of Stockton/Malone should be considered like Isiah/Duncan.. Plus they had Hornacek at 3rd option and a defensive core of Ostertag, Russell and Shandon Anderson (plus Stockton and Malone were All-Defense).. It was a stacked team..

Btw, Malone won MVP with 1st team defense for 3 straight years from 97-99', except a 2nd to MJ in 98' for MVP... So Malone had a goat-level peak, if not for the Finals losses to the actual goat.

[SouBeachTalents]

Jordan lost 3 years in a row to a team whose best player wasn’t even All-NBA? Embarrassing

[Full Court]

That's what I was thinking. Sure, most people have Stockton over Isiah now because of his longevity, but highly unlikely that was the case during the 90's.

Big fan of Stockton, but he has no case for being ranked over Isiah. Stockton is up there with the greatest seconds of all time, but that's a level below the great firsts.

[3ba11]

.
.
Lebron can't carry weak help over top teams, even with a top team defense:



09' Mo Will vs #4 SRS Magic'............ 18 on 38%.......... #3 team defense




MJ could though - he always carried weak help over top teams, even with weaker team defenses than Lebron's Cavs had:



89' Pippen' vs #1 SRS Cavs'.............. 15 on 40%........ #11 team defense
96' Pippen' vs #2 SRS Sonics............ 16 on 34%.......... #1 team defense
97' Pippen' vs #4 SRS Heat'.............. 16 on 39%.......... #4 team defense
98' Pippen' vs #4 SRS Pacers............ 17 on 39%.......... #9 team defense
98' Pippen' vs #3 SRS Jazz'............... 16 on 41%.......... #9 team defense

96-98' Pippen entire playoffs............. 18 on 41%.......... #1, #4, #9 defenses

[Phoenix]

1988

Stockton.... 2nd Team All-NBA
Isiaih......... nothing


1989

Stockton.... 2nd Team All-NBA
Isiaih......... nothing


1990

Stockton.... 2nd Team All-NBA
Isiaih......... nothing


1991

Stockton.... 2nd Team All-NBA
Isiaih......... nothing


1992

Stockton.... 2nd Team All-NBA
Isiaih......... nothing

* stockton was also All-Defense every year



^^^ Stockton was considered a phenom for averaging literally 14-15 APG for 5 straight seasons from 88' to 92'... During this period, he averaged 16/14 and 2.9 SPG with 37% on threes and 52% overall during this period.

So again, Stockton was considered better than Isiah, which means the duo of Stockton/Malone should be considered like Isiah/Duncan.. Plus they had Hornacek at 3rd option and a defensive core of Ostertag, Russell and Shandon Anderson (plus Stockton and Malone were All-Defense).. It was a stacked team.

I literally just said Isiah stopped making all-NBA team because of the Bird comment. He was either first or 2nd team all-nba 5 straight years before that. Was he somehow worse from 88-90 while winning titles and FMVP? If your argument is that Stockton was better after like 92 when Isiah slowed down and then retired from injury? Yeah, ok. EDIT: I realized that I cut out the part about Bird. But Isiah not making the all-NBA team after 87 was politics, not basketball. Same reason Stockton got the Dream Team nod over him in 92.

But was his career considered better by the time the 90s rolled around, as in ranked higher on the GOAT list? No he wasn't. If you're boiling it down to high assist numbers, then he would have gotten first team all-nba over Price in 93( he averaged 12 to Price's 9). Which is funny coming from you, because 1) you heavily focus on scoring and Isiah was clearly a better scorer, and 2) you use Stockton's assist numbers as proof of superiority but you've called him a 'ball dominator' multiple times in other threads in the same light as Magic and Luka. You don't use that term as complimentary, so there's no reason why it would be a talking point to be better than Isiah now. I keep all the receipts for the bullshit you say. Stockton shot 52% but he wasn't the teams main focal point on offense and picked his spots. If he was on the Pistons they wouldn't have won, because Stockton was never that level of scorer and that Detroit team needed it. Stockton isn't going off for 25 points in the finals on a busted ankle. Or are you going to downplay that aspect now for the sake of this particular discussion, even if that runs contradictory to thousands of your other posts touting the importance of scoring ability?

BTW... Isiah himself was capable of 14 assists( 85) but also could score 21ppg to go with it. Stockton was never that level of threat as a scorer/passer.

[3ba11]

Jordan lost 3 years in a row to a team whose best player wasn’t even All-NBA? Embarrassing


For 5 straight seasons from 2006 to 2010, Lebron's Cavs lost to worse opponents than the Bad Boys.. This is despite having better defenses than the 1st three-peat Bulls and more/better scoring options.. The Cavs had a 20k scorer at 3rd option that once outscored Lebron in a head-to-head playoff series (Jamison).. They also had the East all-star center, a 22/5/5 all-defender acquisition, and an all-star spacer that added 21 wins in 09'.

To summarize, Lebron had better casts than the 1st three-peat Bulls but still lost to weaker opponents than the Bad Boys.. Otoh, Jordan carried 15 on 40% from his 2nd option over the #1 SRS team in the 89' Playoffs, aka he carried weak help over a top team, which Lebron has never done..

For example, Lebron failed to carry 18 on 38% from Mo over the #4 SRS Magic in 2009 despite having the #3 defense - MJ always won in this scenario - aka he always beat top teams with 18 on 38% from Pippen and a top defense (see previous post).. The reality is that Lebron never beat a top 5 SRS team with weak scoring & efficiency from a sidekick (never carried weak help over top teams).. Lebron also choked in winnable series like 26 on 35% with 5 TO's to lose in 7 games in 08', and then the 2010 meltdown as an OKC-level favorite.

[1987_Lakers]

Jordan lost 3 years in a row to a team whose best player wasn’t even All-NBA? Embarrassing

:oldlol:

[1987_Lakers]

Big fan of Stockton, but he has no case for being ranked over Isiah. Stockton is up there with the greatest seconds of all time, but that's a level below the great firsts.

I feel like with the introduction of analytics, it has made a lot of people look at Isiah in a negative light. He wasn't as efficient as some of the other all-time great point guards and he didn't bring much to the defensive end.

Peak Isiah was clearly the better player, but I still give Stockton the edge in terms of overall career. His longevity edge is too hard to ignore and it's not like peak Isiah was something out of this world, when Detroit won back to back titles he was a borderline top 10 player in the league.

[3ba11]

I literally just said Isiah stopped making all-NBA team because of the Bird comment. He was either first or 2nd team all-nba 5 straight years before that. Was he somehow worse from 88-90 while winning titles and FMVP? If your argument is that Stockton was better after like 92 when Isiah slowed down and then retired from injury? Yeah, ok. EDIT: I realized that I cut out the part about Bird. But Isiah not making the all-NBA team after 87 was politics, not basketball. Same reason Stockton got the Dream Team nod over him in 92.

But was his career considered better by the time the 90s rolled around, as in ranked higher on the GOAT list? No he wasn't. If you're boiling it down to high assist numbers, then he would have gotten first team all-nba over Price in 93( he averaged 12 to Price's 9). Which is funny coming from you, because 1) you heavily focus on scoring and Isiah was clearly a better scorer, and 2) you use Stockton's assist numbers as proof of superiority but you've called him a 'ball dominator' multiple times in other threads in the same light as Magic and Luka. You don't use that term as complimentary, so there's no reason why it would be a talking point to be better than Isiah now. I keep all the receipts for the bullshit you say. Stockton shot 52% but he wasn't the teams main focal point on offense and picked his spots. If he was on the Pistons they wouldn't have won, because Stockton was never that level of scorer and that Detroit team needed it. Stockton isn't going off for 25 points in the finals on a busted ankle. Or are you going to downplay that aspect now for the sake of this particular discussion, even if that runs contradictory to thousands of your other posts touting the importance of scoring ability?

BTW... Isiah himself was capable of 14 assists( 85) but also could score 21ppg to go with it. Stockton was never that level of threat as a scorer/passer.


In addition to missing All-NBA, Isiah was a bad defender compared to a perennial All-Defensive player and goat defender Stockton... Baron Davis describes here:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=yAn8uLhYjO8&pp=ygUhQmFyb24gRGF2aXMgdGFsa3MgYWJvdXQgU3RvY2t0b24 g0gcJCcEJAYcqIYzv

Payton said Stockton was the best PG ever and this opinion isn't uncommon... The goat PG's are Magic, Stockton, Isiah, and Curry, but Stockton was just unlucky for facing "Mr. Finals" in the Finals, so he's ringless.

[Phoenix]

In addition to missing All-NBA, Isiah was a bad defender compared to Stockton, as Baron Davis describes here:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=yAn8uLhYjO8&pp=ygUhQmFyb24gRGF2aXMgdGFsa3MgYWJvdXQgU3RvY2t0b24 g0gcJCcEJAYcqIYzv

Payton said Stockton was the best PG ever and this opinion isn't uncommon... Goat PG's are Magic, Stockton, Isiah, and Curry, but Stockton was just unlucky for facing Mr. Finals each time he made the Finals.

Stockton was tough and gritty but was also known as dirty, and got high steal numbers more because of anticipation to play the lanes than being some in your shorts defender. Really, unless you're talking about Gary Payton or Jason Kidd level PGs at the top of the key, the defensive difference between Isiah and Stockton wasn't going to be the deciding factor as to who was better or who takes their team further. Stockton's limitations as a scorer probably prevented the Jazz from more deep playoff runs. Frankly, it was probably the difference in why they couldn't win one of those finals series, especially 98.

[Full Court]

I feel like with the introduction of analytics, it has made a lot of people look at Isiah in a negative light. He wasn't as efficient as some of the other all-time great point guards and he didn't bring much to the defensive end.

Peak Isiah was clearly the better player, but I still give Stockton the edge in terms of overall career. His longevity edge is too hard to ignore and it's not like peak Isiah was something out of this world, when Detroit won back to back titles he was a borderline top 10 player in the league.

Basketball is way too nuanced of a sport to be able to interpret solely with analytics. I trust the eye test over analytics any day.

Isiah may have been borderline top ten, but that was during a time when the league was the most stacked it probably ever was. His competition for top dog was Bird, Magic, Jordan, Hakeem, Barkley, Malone, etc. That's a murderer's row if there ever was one.

[1987_Lakers]

Basketball is way too nuanced of a sport to be able to interpret solely with analytics. I trust the eye test over analytics any day.

Isiah may have been borderline top ten, but that was during a time when the league was the most stacked it probably ever was. His competition for top dog was Bird, Magic, Jordan, Hakeem, Barkley, Malone, etc. That's a murderer's row if there ever was one.

Bird missed the '89 season.

[Phoenix]

I'll give Isiah this.....in the 80s the title picture was dominated by bigger players. Kareem, Moses, Mchale, Parish, even Bird at 6'9 and Magic as a 6'8 unicorn at PG being able to see over the defense. Isiah was the least ideal player archetype to play a significant role on a championship team at that point, leading a more perimeter-centric offensive attack since the Pistons had no comparable post presence on the scale of some of the aforementioned bigs.

[Full Court]

Bird missed the '89 season.

Correct.

[Baller234]

Pistons under Zeke's leadership went to 3 straight finals and were a c*nt hair away from 3-peating.

Zeke's ability to dominate offensively and close out a game puts him above Stockton for me.

[Kblaze8855]

Im not Entirely sure I’ve ever heard anyone say out loud they thought Stockton was better than Isiah. I’ve read it on the Internet, but I’ve never heard those words. Whatever the truth of it is the idea that most thought it in the 90s is on the short list of the least true things you’ve ever said. And that’s saying something.

[SouBeachTalents]

Im not Entirely sure I’ve ever heard anyone say out loud they thought Stockton was better than Isiah. I’ve read it on the Internet, but I’ve never heard those words. Whatever the truth of it is the idea that most thought it in the 90s is on the short list of the least true things you’ve ever said. And that’s saying something.
Tbf this applies to virtually everything OP says, both never hearing it said in person and it being one of the least true things ever said.

[Tavr]

As a "third option" Jeff Hornacek gets a bit underlooked. He was a playoff riser during his prime, very efficient and lights out from 16 feet and out (took a lot of long jumpers). Like Stockton, though, I thought he could've been more aggressive.

[bison]

plus a better producer than Klay at 3rd option (Hornacek), while also having a good defensive cast of Ostertag, Russell, and Shandon Anderson (in addition to all-defenders Stockton & Malone).

so the 98' Jazz were stacked, which is why they "gentlemen" swept Popovich/Duncan/Robinson and Shaq's 4 all-star Lakers.

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/1nl5hzIYWP4?app=desktop


AND you're telling me Jordan beat these guys TWICE? In a row??

Basically Jordan had steep competitions in each of his finals run and did what Lebron did in 2016 but multiplied by six.

[Phoenix]

Tbf this applies to virtually everything OP says, both never hearing it said in person and it being one of the least true things ever said.

The most talked about PGs to my memory in the early 90s after Magic was like Tim Hardaway and Kevin Johnson. Everyone on the playground was trying the Utep 2step. People knew what Stockton was doing but like Kblaze said, there's extreme revisionist history that 'most' or even 'many' though he was better than Isiah unless you're talking about his last few seasons, or even generally recognized as the best PG at that time. You'd hear his name drop sometimes but Tim Hardaway and KJ doing like 22/11 on their teams was very much a part of those conversations. And as I've said here a few times, there was a short window of time where I'd take Mark Price over Stockton. If one were a 90s Bulls fan you were acutely aware of what a giant pain in the ass he was with those Cavs teams.

[SouBeachTalents]

The most talked about PGs to my memory in the early 90s after Magic was like Tim Hardaway and Kevin Johnson. Everyone on the playground was trying the Utep 2step. People knew what Stockton was doing but like Kblaze said, there's extreme revisionist history that 'most' or even 'many' though he was better than Isiah unless you're talking about his last few seasons, or even generally recognized as the best PG at that time. You'd hear his name drop sometimes but Tim Hardaway and KJ doing like 22/11 on their teams was very much a part of those conversations. And as I've said here a few times, there was a short window of time where I'd take Mark Price over Stockton. If one were a 90s Bulls fan you were acutely aware of what a giant pain in the ass he was with those Cavs teams.
You'd even have Penny & Payton thrown in there too.

[Phoenix]

You'd even have Penny & Payton thrown in there too.

Yes, moreso mid 90s when they entered that conversation but that taps into what I was saying on the first page. Magic and Isiah were better in the 80s. Magic retires in 91, and Isiah falls off from injury, so you'd think Stockton becomes the consensus best PG now, right? Nope, Tim Hardaway and KJ enter that conversation. Mark Price is first team all-nba over prime Stock in 93. Jordan is then out of the league and opens up a space for Stock on the first team in 94 and 95. Penny leaps to first team in 95. But then in 96, MJ is back and Penny has his best year so they're now the clear first team guards, with Payton right behind them. Kidd enters the league in 94 and is first team within 5 years. Stockton had a couple seasons where he was 'arguably' the best PG but he never had the position on lockdown. It wasn't like Magic, Jordan, Bird etc where they were the consensus best at their positions during their primes/peaks. You could probably say he was arguably the best in like 94 with Magic out, Isiah retiring, IIRC Hardaway was out, Price fell off from injury, Penny was a rookie etc etc. But even KJ had a case in 94, especially when you look at his playoff performance.

[Axe]

2 rings > 0 rings


Bird missed the '89 season.
https://c.tenor.com/ZQ6SDX4dBEUAAAAC/tenor.gif (https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRPZqPRPHIF2xVI5uiUFQ7DcZyo3SNqM MQAlw&usqp=CAU)

[Full Court]

^Stinky Bitch Tits making a low IQ post. Go figure. :lol


What a stinky idiot.

[3ba11]

Im not Entirely sure I’ve ever heard anyone say out loud they thought Stockton was better than Isiah. I’ve read it on the Internet, but I’ve never heard those words. Whatever the truth of it is the idea that most thought it in the 90s is on the short list of the least true things you’ve ever said. And that’s saying something.


In the 90's, when people were asked who the greatest point guards ever were, the standard answer was "Magic, Isiah, Stockton".. Stockton was often mentioned ahead of Isiah, but they were all mentioned in the same breath... Meanwhile, Stockton was All-NBA and All-defense from 88-92', while Isiah was neither.. So again, Stockton was generally considered better.. He also outplayed Isiah against the same comp in 1988 (see next post below).

[3ba11]

.
https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/cache.php?img=https%3A%2F%2Fs3.amazonaws.com%2Ftwo plustwo-actually-definitely-helping-stud%2Fuserimages%2F00puXgu.jpeg




^^^^ Stockton was the best player in the series:




Gamescore in 88' WCSF

Stockton'.... 24.5
Malone'...... 19.4
Magic'........ 17.1
Scot't......... 14.8
Worthy....... 14.6


Stats

Stockton'.... 19 ppg... 16 apg... 4.0 spg
Magic......... 18 ppg... 10 apg... 1.0 spg

* Isiah averaged 19.7 ppg and 9 apg with 2.9 spg against the Lakers in the Finals.



Again, Stockton/Malone was like having Isiah/Duncan

[1987_Lakers]

.
https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/cache.php?img=https%3A%2F%2Fs3.amazonaws.com%2Ftwo plustwo-actually-definitely-helping-stud%2Fuserimages%2F00puXgu.jpeg



^^^^ Stockton was the best player in the series:




Gamescore in 88' WCSF

Stockton'.... 24.5
Malone'...... 19.4
Magic'........ 17.1
Scot't......... 14.8
Worthy....... 14.6


Stats

Stockton'.... 19 ppg... 16 apg... 4.0 spg
Magic......... 18 ppg... 10 apg... 1.0 spg

* Isiah averaged 19.7 ppg and 9 apg with 2.9 spg against the Lakers in the Finals.



Again, Stockton/Malone was like having Isiah/Duncan

Even this argument is flawed because Stockton was not the player he was in '88-'92 compared to 1997 & 1998 when he faced the Bulls. He was past his prime. Wasn't even an All-star in '98.

[3ba11]

Even this argument is flawed because Stockton was not the player he was in '88-'92 compared to 1997 & 1998 when he faced the Bulls. He was past his prime. Wasn't even an All-star in '98.


98' Stockton was just like 90' Isiah because they were both in the later stage of their career and not as highly-regarded by the media (less media accolade).. But Stockton was still dominant in the 97' WCF to carry the Jazz to the Finals.. Stockton was also still playing great at 40 years old and cooking Gilbert Arenas or Baron Davis for example.

So the point remains that everyone in the 90's said that Magic/Stockton/Isiah were the top 3 PG's ever - they were all mentioned in the same breath, ALL THE TIME, as a standard - they were 3 peas in a pod.

So again, Stockton/Malone was like Isiah/Duncan... There's a reason that the Jazz could destroy Shaq's 4 all-star Lakers or Popovich/Duncan/Robinson - it's because they had a goat PG and a goat PF on the same team..

[Phoenix]

98' Stockton was just like 90' Isiah because they were both in the later stage of their career and not as highly-regarded by the media (less media accolade).. But Stockton was still dominant in the 97' WCF to carry the Jazz to the Finals.. Stockton was also still playing great at 40 years old and cooking Gilbert Arenas or Baron Davis for example.

So the point remains that everyone in the 90's said that Magic/Stockton/Isiah were the top 3 PG's ever - they were all mentioned in the same breath, ALL THE TIME, as a standard - they were 3 peas in a pod.

So again, Stockton/Malone was like Isiah/Duncan... There's a reason that the Jazz could destroy Shaq's 4 all-star Lakers or Popovich/Duncan/Robinson - it's because they had a goat PG and a goat PF on the same team..

You really think you're saying this shit around mostly a bunch of zoomers, don't you (well maybe you are, but some of us weren't born in 2000)? Isiah being 'less regarded' by the media in 1990 had nothing to do with his on-court play as I said above. He was blacklisted after the 'Bird would just be another good black player' comment. 1990 was 28-29 year old prime Isiah averaging 18/9/4/2 on 37mpg during the season, 21/8/6/2 in the playoffs, and winning the finals MVP averaging 28/7/5/2. His 1990 season numbers were par with his career averages. He didn't just drop from first team all-nba in 1987 to not even being able to crack the third team by 1990 because he was worse. You're really trying to tell me that he was less deserving of third team than his own teammate Joe Dumars that year? The only reason Isiah was in the 'later stages' of his career in 1990 was because he retired form injury in 1994. Nobody looked at him that year winning finals MVP and said 'oh yeah, it's time to put this guy out to pasture'. The fact that his exclusion off the 92 Dream Team in favor or Stockton due to 'reasons' is still a point of contention 33 years later is precisely because in a vacuum, going back to 1990 or 91 when these teams were being picked Isiah would have been the logical choice after Magic. Nobody was looking at Stockton averaging 17/14 going out in the first round and saying 'oh yeah, let's take this dude over the guy who just won finals MVP'.

Stockton in 1998 was 36 and VERY clearly on the downside of his career based on what he was doing on the floor, not politics. He was still very good and steady, but he had been passed by at this stage by guys like Payton and Kidd coming onto the scene. Tim Hardaway was 4th in MVP and first team all-NBA in 97. 98 Stockton wasn't an all-star, wasn't an all-NBA selection and averaging 12/9 playing 29mpg by this point, light-years away from his 17/14 production peaks. What you are actually arguing in both cases here, is that 1990 MJ couldn't get past a team whose best player wasn't all-NBA level, and in 1998 he beat a team who's 2nd best player wasn't even an all-star or all-nba player that year. Are these hills you wish to die on? Even if he was 'dominant' in the 97 WCFs, why wasn't he in the finals? You can't just chalk it up to the Bulls defense because that same defense allowed Mookie Blaylock to go off for 21/7/6 58% TS in the 2nd round and Rod Strickland to go off for 20/6/8 ( albeit on 49% TS) in the first. Hardaway struggled in the conference finals averaging 17/5/6 on 49% TS, but overall half of the PGs who would be considered worse played better against Chicago that playoff run. It's even worse in 98 when Sherman freakin Douglas can drop 18/8 57% on the Bulls in the first round and you have to round up to get Stockton to 10ppg. Dude started off Game 1 with 24 points and never sniffed a double digit game again until a whopping 10 points on 4/10 shooting in game 6. And that was the biggest reason why Utah couldn't get over the hump, whether Jordan was in the finals or not. For all of Stocktons floor general-ship in terms of running an offense, his lack of takeover scoring ability( something you value except for the purpose of this conversation), probably cost them at least one title. Frankly, the Bulls in 98 were vulnerable. Indiana had just taken them to 7. They needed MJ's heroics to scrap out game 6 in Utah. That series could have had a different outcome if their 'top 3 GOAT' PG actually produced remotely close to one, since you're here arguing that he was still good enough to have done so at that stage in his career. Who cares if he was cooking young Arenas or Baron Davis at 40. That's like the old fukker at the local gym using all the tricks he had learned over the years. What was he doing in game 3 of the 1998 finals?

The reason the Jazz 'destroyed' those Laker and Spurs team is because they were well-coached, well-oiled units and the Lakers/Spurs weren't ready for prime-time yet. The same Jazz team in 99 with Malone winning MVP couldn't get past a star-less Trailblazer squad. So it wasn't just that Jordan/Chicago stood in their way of winning titles. They couldn't do it in 94 and 95 with Jordan in mini-retirement nor could they do it when he left again in 98. You can't just say they were 'past their prime' in 99 because they were already past it in 98. Stockton even in his heyday couldn't break a game open with his scoring, he was steady and picked his spots, but he alone was never gonna beat you offensively, which is something the other great points of his era all had the ability to do ( Magic, Isiah, Price, KJ, Hardaway). Which is not to say he's not like top 4-5 all time at the position, but the revisionism on how he was viewed coming into the 90s after Isiah had spent the 80s battling and beating prime Magic, Bird and Jordan is bullshit.

In closing, the only way Stockton/Malone is in any way analogous to Isiah/Duncan when the Bulls played them in the finals is if you pretend that 1) 97/98 Stockton was close to prime Isiah or hell, even prime Stockton and 2) 97/98 Malone is on the level of prime Duncan when he was winning rings and Finals MVPs. Neither is remotely true.

[SouBeachTalents]

1998 Stockton couldn't even crack double digit scoring in the Finals, this was the level of competition Jordan was facing in the 90's :lol

[Manny98]

https://i.postimg.cc/RZqQyX2c/jazz-110113-17.jpg