Bleacher Report Top 100: 12be becomes 11be

[ELITEpower23]

Nice work Kobe.

Giannis, KD and Joker will push you to 14be soon.

[SouBeachTalents]

The last couple rankings posted here have been surprisingly respectable. While I obv don't agree with every rank, the ones that really jumped out to me were

Too high: Iverson, McHale, Walton, Schayes, Maravich

Too low: Pettit, Reed, Cowens, Butler, Parker

Walton should get an honorable top 100 spot due to how insane his peak was, but the guy legitimately had like elite seasons, absolutely absurd for him to be anywhere near the top 50.

On the flipside, its crazy how disrespected Butler gets on these lists, he has a borderline top 50 resume at this point and he's not even making the top 75-80.

[1987_Lakers]

Sidney Moncrief should have made the list.

[L.Kizzle]

Nice work Kobe.

Giannis, KD and Joker will push you to 14be soon.
Where the list at?

[Phoenix]

The last couple rankings posted here have been surprisingly respectable. While I obv don't agree with every rank, the ones that really jumped out to me were

Too high: Iverson, McHale, Walton, Schayes, Maravich

Too low: Pettit, Reed, Cowens, Butler, Parker

Walton should get an honorable top 100 spot due to how insane his peak was, but the guy legitimately had like elite seasons, absolutely absurd for him to be anywhere near the top 50.

On the flipside, its crazy how disrespected Butler gets on these lists, he has a borderline top 50 resume at this point and he's not even making the top 75-80.

Jimmy Butler is kind of hard to rank for me, because his playoff performances are so far above his seasons in some cases, its like if he played that way all season long he should have been in a few MVP conversations( as in, at least a handful of top 5 finishes), and probably more all-NBA teams. I agree that he's underrated, especially if he is being ranked as low as 75, but I'm not sure where to put him. Some players you could remove from the original top 50, but the league isn't going to do that. Some names in reality have long been passed over by more modern players. Like, I need a good explanation for why someone like Lenny Wilkins should be in the top 50 or ranked higher than Butler if the league actually evolved the list as the years go on( he's not the only name, he just comes to mind at the moment).

I have no clue what's a fair ranking for Kawhi either( though at least Kahwi has a few legit MVP level seasons and a couple of FMVPs to legitimize his play).

[L.Kizzle]

The last couple rankings posted here have been surprisingly respectable. While I obv don't agree with every rank, the ones that really jumped out to me were

Too high: Iverson, McHale, Walton, Schayes, Maravich

Too low: Pettit, Reed, Cowens, Butler, Parker

Walton should get an honorable top 100 spot due to how insane his peak was, but the guy legitimately had like elite seasons, absolutely absurd for him to be anywhere near the top 50.

On the flipside, its crazy how disrespected Butler gets on these lists, he has a borderline top 50 resume at this point and he's not even making the top 75-80.

How is Schayes too high, he should be higher.
He was the 2nd best player for the entire 1950s. Led team to the Finals as well.

Weird ranking.
75 Manu
86 Tony Parker

[Tavr]

I mean, this was composed by a bunch of bloggers (aka "staffers" of BR) just like anyone posting here. Not sure why people put so much credence into these random lists lol.

Anyway I wouldn't put Curry over Kobe. Although I'd possibly consider ranking Curry and Kobe over Hakeem and Bird.

[tpols]

The number 11 constitutes the notation 1.1.

That means Kobes not just number 1 or the best... that signifies an Uber GOAT.

The GOAT of GOATs.

[Phoenix]

In any case, here's the top 30 per the website. If someone wants to do the rest of the list knock yourself out.

1) MJ
2) Lebron
3) Kareem
4) Magic
5) Russell
6) Shaq
7) Duncan
8) Bird
9) Wilt
10) Steph
11) Kobe
12) Hakeem
13) Durant
14) Oscar
15) West
16) KG
17) Jokic
18) Dirk
19) Admiral
20) Dr.J
21) Moses
22) Mailman
23) D.Wade
24) Giannis
25) Barkley
26) Baylor
27) Isiah
28) Pippen
29) Stockton
30) CP3

[1987_Lakers]

If people are going to rank Magic ahead of Bird, they should have the same consistency and rank Jerry West ahead of Big O.

Big O probably had the better peak, much like Bird did over Magic.

West had better longevity and was clearly the better player when both were in their 30's.

[3ba11]

It's impossible for two top 5 guys to be on the same team and have a weak Finals record like Magic & Kareem..

So that means one of them isn't top 5, and it's obviously the ball-dominator

[ShawkFactory]

It's impossible for two top 5 guys to be on the same team and have a weak Finals record like Magic & Kareem..

So that means one of them isn't top 5, and it's obviously the ball-dominator

5-2 in the finals I think.

[SouBeachTalents]

Jimmy Butler is kind of hard to rank for me, because his playoff performances are so far above his seasons in some cases, its like if he played that way all season long he should have been in a few MVP conversations( as in, at least a handful of top 5 finishes), and probably more all-NBA teams. I agree that he's underrated, especially if he is being ranked as low as 75, but I'm not sure where to put him. Some players you could remove from the original top 50, but the league isn't going to do that. Some names in reality have long been passed over by more modern players. Like, I need a good explanation for why someone like Lenny Wilkins should be in the top 50 or ranked higher than Butler if the league actually evolved the list as the years go on( he's not the only name, he just comes to mind at the moment).

I have no clue what's a fair ranking for Kawhi either( though at least Kahwi has a few legit MVP level seasons and a couple of FMVPs to legitimize his play).
Even if you removed his playoff history completely, he would still have a resume of

5x All-NBA
6x All-Star
5x All-Defense

That's definitely comparable to guys like Pierce, Allen & Reggie, who are all in the top 50-60 range. Then when you factor in his playoff resume, two trips to the Finals, a shot away from a 3rd, multiple superstar and even historically great playoff performances and series. The one part he really comes up short is his longevity/counting stats, as he's a good 8-10,000 points away from those 3. But factoring in everything else, he should at least be in the same tier with those guys imo.

[SouBeachTalents]

5-2 in the finals I think.
Yep, Kareem was retired by '91, and you'd have to be a fakkit to include '89 when Kareem was 42 and Magic played 75 total minutes.

The fact they went 5-2 with Kareem being a shell of himself those last 2 Finals is ironically a testament to Magic.

[3ba11]

Even if you removed his playoff history completely, he would still have a resume of

5x All-NBA
6x All-Star
5x All-Defense

That's definitely comparable to guys like Pierce, Allen & Reggie, who are all in the top 50-60 range. Then when you factor in his playoff resume, two trips to the Finals, a shot away from a 3rd, multiple superstar and even historically great playoff performances and series. The one part he really comes up short is his longevity/counting stats, as he's a good 8-10,000 points away from those 3. But factoring in everything else, he should at least be in the same tier with those guys imo.


Imagine parsing players by media awards - i.e. letting Rachel Nichols, Skip Bayless and the group think of a few dozen journalism majors decide who is good at a sport they never played.

Just look at ACTUAL PERFORMANCE to determine who is good.. if a guy never dominated, then he isn't that good regardless of his media accolade... In Butler's case, he's obviously underrated because we saw him reach that top level of perimeter dominance many times in the playoffs

[Phoenix]

As I said in another thread last week,I don't see how Bird and Magic are 4 spots apart however one chooses to rank them.

[Phoenix]

Even if you removed his playoff history completely, he would still have a resume of

5x All-NBA
6x All-Star
5x All-Defense

That's definitely comparable to guys like Pierce, Allen & Reggie, who are all in the top 50-60 range. Then when you factor in his playoff resume, two trips to the Finals, a shot away from a 3rd, multiple superstar and even historically great playoff performances and series. The one part he really comes up short is his longevity/counting stats, as he's a good 8-10,000 points away from those 3. But factoring in everything else, he should at least be in the same tier with those guys imo.

55-60 is about the range I had in mind when I made that post but in that category of player, you tend to get wide variances across these lists and what logic is being applied is :confusedshrug:. I've see Drexler listed in the 50s and in this list he's 39th. The criteria tends to get more and more obscured the further you get away from the obvious names.

[3ba11]

55-60 is about the range I had in mind when I made that post but in that category of player, you tend to get wide variances across these lists and what logic is being applied is :confusedshrug:. I've see Drexler listed in the 50s and in this list he's 39th. The criteria tends to get more and more obscured the further you get away from the obvious names.


If a higher power came down from the sky and ranked the players, they wouldn't use media awards as a criteria and would laugh at the notion

It's all about using your own intelligence to determine who is best..
Relying on the group think of nerds is pretty dumb

[Phoenix]

If a higher power came down from the sky and ranked the players, they wouldn't use media awards as a criteria and would laugh at the notion

It's all about using your own intelligence to determine who is best..
Relying on the group think of nerds is pretty dumb

Fortunately I don't, but thanks for the tip.

[SouBeachTalents]

Fortunately I don't, but thanks for the tip.
And we both know he's used that in his arguments literally hundreds of times when it suits his agenda :lol

All-star Ilgauskas, COTY Mike Brown etc.

[tpols]

And we both know he's used that in his arguments literally hundreds of times when it suits his agenda :lol

All-star Ilgauskas, COTY Mike Brown etc.


Big Z was a bonafide All Star even without LeBron. You kiddies just dont know, but dude was legit. 7'3 with a wet jumper. And made the team on a nobody franchise in 2003.

[Phoenix]

And we both know he's used that in his arguments literally hundreds of times when it suits his agenda :lol

All-star Ilgauskas, COTY Mike Brown etc.

Don't forget the indomitable 09 Mo Williams

[Phoenix]

And we both know he's used that in his arguments literally hundreds of times when it suits his agenda :lol

All-star Ilgauskas, COTY Mike Brown etc.

Don't forget the indomitable 09 Mo Williams

[SouBeachTalents]

Big Z was a bonafide All Star even without LeBron. You kiddies just dont know, but dude was legit. 7'3 with a wet jumper. And made the team on a nobody franchise in 2003.
Dale Davis
Antonio Davis
Theo Ratliff
Shareef Abdur-Rahim
Jamaal Magloire

all made the All-Star team around that time as well. Now, do you believe this is because they were all legitimate all-stars, or a function of there being an incredibly weak level of players to fill that position in the East at that time.

[tpols]

Dale Davis
Antonio Davis
Theo Ratliff
Shareef Abdur-Rahim
Jamaal Magloire

all made the All-Star team around that time as well. Now, do you believe this is because they were all legitimate all-stars, or a function of there being an incredibly weak level of players to fill that position in the East at that time.


He made it multiple times dude. And did it with the ultimate "non winning spotlight".

If you can make All Star team on Cleveland you can make it anywhere. :lol Its the ultimate dogshit franchise to prove your worth on.

As far as his talent goes? He was like a fat porzingis. 7'3 and his biggest skill was his jumpshot. And it was wet. You dont see that too often guys way over 7 feet whose main skill was shooting. He would've been perfect for today's game.

If a guy like Sengun or Sabonis makes All Star I dont see a problem with Big Z making it.

[sdot_thadon]

Imagine parsing players by media awards - i.e. letting Rachel Nichols, Skip Bayless and the group think of a few dozen journalism majors decide who is good at a sport they never played.

Just look at ACTUAL PERFORMANCE to determine who is good.. if a guy never dominated, then he isn't that good regardless of his media accolade... In Butler's case, he's obviously underrated because we saw him reach that top level of perimeter dominance many times in the playoffs

What good does that do if they're just as dogshit at parsing what they see as you are? :oldlol:

[Baller234]

I will say this about media awards, even though you really shouldn't put much stock in them.

Winning MVP doesn't mean you were the best player in the league that year, but it probably means you were ONE of the best players that year. Same with COY. It's really hard to determine who the single best coach is each year, but chances are if you won COY you were at least in the discussion and you had a tremendous and notable year. Regardless of the award, if you were good enough to convince that many people to vote for you, then at least you had to be doing something right.

The only years that come to mind for me where the MVP winner wasn't even close to being in the discussion for best player was D-Rose and Westbrook. Honest to God I don't think either guy was even top 5 those years.

[L.Kizzle]

I will say this about media awards, even though you really shouldn't put much stock in them.

Winning MVP doesn't mean you were the best player in the league that year, but it probably means you were ONE of the best players that year. Same with COY. It's really hard to determine who the single best coach is each year, but chances are if you won COY you were at least in the discussion and you had a tremendous and notable year. Regardless of the award, if you were good enough to convince that many people to vote for you, then at least you had to be doing something right.

The only years that come to mind for me where the MVP winner wasn't even close to being in the discussion for best player was D-Rose and Westbrook. Honest to God I don't think either guy was even top 5 those years.

There wasn't 5 players better than Westbrook or Rose in those seasons.

[SouBeachTalents]

There wasn't 5 players better than Westbrook or Rose in those seasons.
2011
Dirk
LeBron
Dwight
Wade
KD

2017
LeBron
Curry
Kawhi
KD
Harden

You could MAYBE argue Rose over KD & Westbrook over Harden, though they’d still have valid arguments themselves. To claim they were better players than anyone else listed is just low IQ.

[Soundwave]

Magic is overrated in these lists because he has a great personality and helped "save the league" with Bird.

He isn't a better player than Kobe Bryant in his peak though, no way. Dude couldn't shoot, middling defender, average athleticism and moves. Fantastic passer, fine, but c'mon now. He won a lot of chips on a stacked roster.

Kevin Garnett is also overrated, same with Iverson. KG is not better than Jokic, Dirk, Karl Malone, or even David Robinson.

People are choosing personality in these cases over actual game.

[Axe]

So he still fails to crack the top 10, i see.


pretty dumb
http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/image.php?u=827668&dateline=1624237688&type=thumb (https://i.ibb.co/hX34jLs/IMG-20221001-103220.jpg)

[sdot_thadon]

Magic is overrated in these lists because he has a great personality and helped "save the league" with Bird.

He isn't a better player than Kobe Bryant in his peak though, no way. Dude couldn't shoot, middling defender, average athleticism and moves. Fantastic passer, fine, but c'mon now. He won a lot of chips on a stacked roster.

Kevin Garnett is also overrated, same with Iverson. KG is not better than Jokic, Dirk, Karl Malone, or even David Robinson.

People are choosing personality in these cases over actual game.

Correction, he orchestrated alot of chips, on a stacked roster.....in an era of stacked rosters. Magic is the ultimate floor general, he couldn't shoot.....until you needed a big bucket. He played average defense.....so did Bird. The Lakers dont win a single one without Magic, He was regarded higher than Mike for most of Mjs career, let that sink in. Magic is actually the origin of why Mikes 6 rings was supposed to be a big deal. Time does a funny thing to peoples views of the game.

[3ba11]

In the 90's, NO ONE THOUGHT pippen was anywhere near Ewing, Drexler, or Walton - they were dominant franchise players that carried teams, while Pippen was a secondary producer that never dominated or played above a Shawn Marion/Iguodala caliber... Pippen over Walton is probably the most ridiculous.

[SouBeachTalents]

In the 90's, NO ONE THOUGHT pippen was anywhere near Ewing, Drexler, or Walton - they were dominant franchise players that carried teams, while Pippen was a secondary producer that never dominated or played above a Shawn Marion or Iguodala caliber... Pippen over Walton is probably the most ridiculous.
Iguodala literally never averaged 20 ppg, which Pippen did multiple times, and trying to compare the playmaking abilities of Pippen & Marion is comical.

This is why you're a low IQ poster, you literally equate players on the sole basis of ppg.

[Phoenix]

In the 90's, NO ONE THOUGHT pippen was anywhere near Ewing, Drexler, or Walton - they were dominant franchise players that carried teams, while Pippen was a secondary producer that never dominated or played above a Shawn Marion/Iguodala caliber... Pippen over Walton is probably the most ridiculous.

What is a secondary producer?

[3ba11]

What is a secondary producer?


Someone that can't average elite stats in PPG, RPG, or APG

[3ba11]

Iguodala literally never averaged 20 ppg, which Pippen did multiple times, and trying to compare the playmaking abilities of Pippen & Marion is comical.

This is why you're a low IQ poster, you literally equate players on the sole basis of ppg.


Pippen can't rebound like Marion, while Iguodala was a clutch player and Finals MVP that could create his own shot, or average 15 outside the system.. Iggy could shoot too.

So Pippen has plenty of holes that they would fill, but the point is that Iggy, Marion and Pippen were similar player types - this was Pippen's caliber, but the winning spotlight inflates him to all-time status and media accolade... MJ won 6 with Shawn Marion and that's why he's goat.

[sdot_thadon]

In the 90's, NO ONE THOUGHT pippen was anywhere near Ewing, Drexler, or Walton - they were dominant franchise players that carried teams, while Pippen was a secondary producer that never dominated or played above a Shawn Marion/Iguodala caliber... Pippen over Walton is probably the most ridiculous.

Until 94......

[Phoenix]

Someone that can't average elite stats in PPG, RPG, or APG

And what would be elite in those categories?

[3ba11]

Until 94......


No one was surprised when Pippen choked in the playoffs and was outplayed by Ewing, or saw teammates lead the BPM and win share in the playoffs... It was extremely common for people to comment on Pippen and say he's big trash - it was standard for people to talk this way about Pippen - no one thought he was anywhere near Ewing, Drexler, Malone, Barkley, etc... You would've been laughed at for making those claims... it's like saying Shawn Marion is on the level of Kobe, Lebron and Duncan... Completely absurd.

[ShawkFactory]

And what would be elite in those categories?

Numbers just above what Pippen specifically averaged in each category :lol

[Phoenix]

And what would be elite in those categories?

3ball?

[sdot_thadon]

No one was surprised when Pippen choked in the playoffs and was outplayed by Ewing, or saw teammates lead the BPM and win share in the playoffs... It was extremely common for people to comment on Pippen and say he's big trash - it was standard for people to talk this way about Pippen - no one thought he was anywhere near Ewing, Drexler, Malone, Barkley, etc... You would've been laughed at for making those claims... it's like saying Shawn Marion is on the level of Kobe, Lebron and Duncan... Completely absurd.

Like I said until he effed around and finished 3rd place in the mvp vote over most of those guys.....thats when he started being recognized as one of the best in the world and Mj came back to play with an mvp candidate.....imagine that.

[SouBeachTalents]

Like I said until he effed around and finished 3rd place in the mvp vote over most of those guys.....thats when he started being recognized as one of the best in the world and Mj came back to play with an mvp candidate.....imagine that.
AND they added an All-NBA player in Rodman too, in addition to Pippen, the 6MOY and the GOAT coach.

Those are Durant level rings.

[sdot_thadon]

AND they added an All-NBA player in Rodman too, in addition to Pippen, the 6MOY and the GOAT coach.

Those are Durant level rings.

The 2nd 3peat bulls were definitely stacked, they had a former 20ppg guy as a defensive role player lol.

[3ba11]

Like I said until he effed around and finished 3rd place in the mvp vote over most of those guys.....thats when he started being recognized as one of the best in the world and Mj came back to play with an mvp candidate.....imagine that.


MVP voting has never been a player ranking - it's based on surprise factor, so tons of bums got 3rd like Blake Griffin or PG3... The Bulls were never a big story in 94' because everyone knew the Bulls were enjoying a honeymoon period and a bubble that would burst

At no point in the 90's did anyone think he was anywhere near real franchise players like Ewing, Drexler, Barkley, Malone, etc

Pippen choked in the playoffs and was outplayed by Ewing, or saw teammates lead the BPM and win share in the playoffs... It was extremely common for people to comment on Pippen and say he's big trash - it was standard for people to talk this way about Pippen - no one thought he was anywhere near Ewing, Drexler, Malone, Barkley, etc... You would've been laughed at for making those claims... it's like saying Shawn Marion is on the level of Kobe, Lebron and Duncan... Completely absurd.

[mr4speed]

Correction, he orchestrated alot of chips, on a stacked roster.....in an era of stacked rosters. Magic is the ultimate floor general, he couldn't shoot.....until you needed a big bucket. He played average defense.....so did Bird. The Lakers dont win a single one without Magic, He was regarded higher than Mike for most of Mjs career, let that sink in. Magic is actually the origin of why Mikes 6 rings was supposed to be a big deal. Time does a funny thing to peoples views of the game.

Until you needed a big bucket?? Magic in his own book titled "Touch" on pages 74-76 admits to being afraid to take the last shot of the game and this was after the 84 Finals which was Magic's 5th season. Where are the game winners from Magic before the 86-87 season? In 1981 vs Houston in the playoffs in the Forum in the deciding game, Magic's last shot was an airball. In the 1983 Finals vs the Sixers Magic shot 40.3% and set a then NBA Finals record with 24 turnovers for 4 games. To show Magic's lack of range in his first 6 years of shooting 3 pointers, Magic was 29 made of 164 shots = 17.68%. Yes, Magic got much better at shooting as his career developed but lets not get carried away. And Magic regarded as higher than Jordan for most of Jordan's career?? That was not the case at all at least in my circles. Bird was a better defender than Magic and Bird was a more complete player than Magic IMO and the gap here between the two players is too big. Magic's defensive weakness IMO must move him down this list, or must elevate Bird up the list.