Jeff Teague Kobe wasn't like that defensively. The same guy who said Bron used HGH

[k0kakw0rld]

Jeff Teague says Kobe Bryant shouldn’t have been named to 12 All-Defensive teams

“I played Kobe, bro. He wasn’t guarding like that."

(via the Club 520 pod)

Of course some of y'all will believe what he says about LeBron because you hate him. However, I am pretty sure y'all will call this man disrespectful for saying what he said about Kobe.

And that's how this world works...
Hes a clown and anybody believing anything he says, he's also a clown period.

[1987_Lakers]

This is the only thing he is right about.

[fsvr54]

Jeff Teague started getting minutes in 2011 playoffs. 2000s Kobe played D not 2010s Kobe.

[1987_Lakers]

Jeff Teague started getting minutes in 2011 playoffs. 2000s Kobe played D not 2010s Kobe.

Kobe was still making All-Defensive teams in the 2010s which is insane. :lol

He was only great on defense from 2000-2002. I liked his defense in 2008 as well, other than that, he was always overrated on that end.

[Phoenix]

There are a handful of all-D teams that all but the most ardent Kobe stans would generally agree were 'reputation-based' as much as merit. When he was dropping 35 in the mid 2000's he weren't playing defense like he was in the early 00's nor the late 2000's. It's worse after 2010, first team over Sefolosha and Wade in 2010, in 2011 over Tony Allen, or on either team in 2012?

[jayfan]

He knows more about both than any of us ever will.


.

[FultzNationRISE]

Lotta great things can be said about Bean in terms of his talent, his accomplishments, his successful post-career life before the tragedy.

But the Kobe "great defensive player" narrative is one of the weirder myths in basketball, in my opinion.

[ImKobe]

He entered the league when KB was in the last year of his prime so he only faced a past-prime version for the most part. He wasn't going to go all out defending a nobody like Teague with all due respect.


Lotta great things can be said about Bean in terms of his talent, his accomplishments, his successful post-career life before the tragedy.

But the Kobe "great defensive player" narrative is one of the weirder myths in basketball, in my opinion.

He worked his ass off on D when he played on good teams. People only remember the past-prime version. There's plenty of footage available from his prime years going through his 2008-2010 Playoff run just on his defensive stuff if you haven't seen any of it. One of the best on-ball guard defenders ever when he wasn't slowed down by injuries. Defense is impossible to track statistically there's always stuff to choose from that could back up your bias. Some of the worst individual defenders can have great stats on D because they play on a good defensive team or they stack up just raw boxscore totals like rebounds. KB is known for being one of the most aggressive 1 on 1 defenders ever so that reputation carried him past his best years when his team defense suffered as is the case with Lebron as well.

[ImKobe]

There are a handful of all-D teams that all but the most ardent Kobe stans would generally agree were 'reputation-based' as much as merit. When he was dropping 35 in the mid 2000's he weren't playing defense like he was in the early 00's nor the late 2000's. It's worse after 2010, first team over Sefolosha and Wade in 2010, in 2011 over Tony Allen, or on either team in 2012?

He still played great individual defense in the mid-2000s, although at times he had to carry so much offensively that he couldn't put as much energy into his defense, and obviously seasons like 2004 and 2005 he wasn't healthy so he couldn't move as well on D. Still, the Lakers made him do less on offense for most of that Suns series in '06 so he could play better D and it almost won them the series until they choked in G6.

[FultzNationRISE]

He entered the league when KB was in the last year of his prime so he only faced a past-prime version for the most part. He wasn't going to go all out defending a nobody like Teague with all due respect.



He worked his ass off on D when he played on good teams. People only remember the past-prime version. There's plenty of footage available from his prime years going through his 2008-2010 Playoff run just on his defensive stuff if you haven't seen any of it. One of the best on-ball guard defenders ever when he wasn't slowed down by injuries. Defense is impossible to track statistically there's always stuff to choose from that could back up your bias. Some of the worst individual defenders can have great stats on D because they play on a good defensive team or they stack up just raw boxscore totals like rebounds. KB is known for being one of the most aggressive 1 on 1 defenders ever so that reputation carried him past his best years when his team defense suffered as is the case with Lebron as well.

Lebron had famous instances of shutting down MVP/FMVP caliber players. Derrick Rose, Paul Pierce, Tony Parker. His chasedown blocks were legendary, including a finals saving one against Iggy.

Can you name an example of when Kobe's defense on someone changed a series? Which specific elite players did he disrupt? For instance Reggie Miller scored 24 on 59TS% in the 2000 Finals. In the 2004 Conference Finals against the Spurs, Manu shot a team high 59TS%. I dont remember the playoff scenarios in Kobe's career when his defense really made a difference on someone. Can you name some of them?

I'm sure he had some nice defensive games here and there in the early 00's digging in against Quinton Richardson in a December game against the Clippers. But when was his defense ever a factor in a big playoff series?

[sdot_thadon]

There are a handful of all-D teams that all but the most ardent Kobe stans would generally agree were 'reputation-based' as much as merit. When he was dropping 35 in the mid 2000's he weren't playing defense like he was in the early 00's nor the late 2000's. It's worse after 2010, first team over Sefolosha and Wade in 2010, in 2011 over Tony Allen, or on either team in 2012?

Its just another case of the retard fan logic flip flops anytime Lebron is part of a discussion. Just the few posts below you show one saying


He entered the league when KB was in the last year of his prime so he only faced a past-prime version for the most part. He wasn't going to go all out defending a nobody like Teague with all due respect.


He worked his ass off on D when he played on good teams.

Yet these same dum dums will try and explain to us why Lebron's defense in his 41st year matters.

[Phoenix]

He still played great individual defense in the mid-2000s, although at times he had to carry so much offensively that he couldn't put as much energy into his defense, and obviously seasons like 2004 and 2005 he wasn't healthy so he couldn't move as well on D. Still, the Lakers made him do less on offense for most of that Suns series in '06 so he could play better D and it almost won them the series until they choked in G6.

Lol. You're not saying anything to dispute what I said. In fact when you say 'although at times he had to carry so much offensively that he couldn't put as much energy into his defense'..when I say 'he wasn't playing the same level of defense when he was dropping 35 as he was in the early 2000s'....perhaps I should have really spelled it out that as his offensive responsibilities grew he had to pick his spots more so he couldn't put the same level of energy into defense. Like, I thought I more or less said or at least inferred something similar to what you're saying, but I have to remember that some things need to be expressed in extremely simple terms on this site. Like, in 2006 none of his defensive metrics compared to the others on the first team suggest he had any business being there. And really, even a year like 2001 when he's considered to be a great defender the metrics don't back it up either, but I can also look at those numbers and see there are enough inconsistencies at times( for example Allen Iverson had a better Drtg in 2001 than Garnett on top of other players who wouldn't have been considered close to the defender), that there should be some allowances for eye-test and observable effort, and Kobe gave that in the early 2000s. Even if you didn't have numbers to go off, you would look at him and say.... that guy? He can play some defense. Mid 2000s? Much less on a game to game basis from an observable POV ON TOP OF no numbers supporting it.

[Carbine]

Lebron had famous instances of shutting down MVP/FMVP caliber players. Derrick Rose, Paul Pierce, Tony Parker. His chasedown blocks were legendary, including a finals saving one against Iggy.

Can you name an example of when Kobe's defense on someone changed a series? Which specific elite players did he disrupt? For instance Reggie Miller scored 24 on 59TS% in the 2000 Finals. In the 2004 Conference Finals against the Spurs, Manu shot a team high 59TS%. I dont remember the playoff scenarios in Kobe's career when his defense really made a difference on someone. Can you name some of them?

I'm sure he had some nice defensive games here and there in the early 00's digging in against Quinton Richardson in a December game against the Clippers. But when was his defense ever a factor in a big playoff series?

This narrative is such a low IQ way of thinking. Aren't we better than this nowadays?

You really think Kobe was on Manu for the entirety of his 59TS or Reggies every point off his 59TS?

It's time to level up. This type of post is elementary

[eliteballer]

He said Kobe is the best two way player ever: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=pg4xWFugzf8

[tpols]

This narrative is such a low IQ way of thinking. Aren't we better than this nowadays?

You really think Kobe was on Manu for the entirety of his 59TS or Reggies every point off his 59TS?

It's time to level up. This type of post is elementary


Not only that but he picked series Kobe missed games in due to injury. Very dishonest.

Kobes pinnacle defense was probably the 2008 Olympic team where he locked in on that end. 2008 Kobe in general peak Kobe. Teague played against a shell of him post 2011 when his athleticism nosedived.

[SouBeachTalents]

He said Kobe is the best two way player ever: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=pg4xWFugzf8
Now THAT's retarded.

[warriorfan]

Jeff Teague started getting minutes in 2011 playoffs. 2000s Kobe played D not 2010s Kobe.

End of thread

[k0kakw0rld]

End of thread
Who the hell is you?

[warriorfan]

Who the hell is you?

Go wipe your mom’s ass you ****** ass canadian bitch

[999Guy]

Kobe was still making All-Defensive teams in the 2010s which is insane. :lol

He was only great on defense from 2000-2002. I liked his defense in 2008 as well, other than that, he was always overrated on that end.

Define, ‘great’. Because Tony Allen was great, and there not a facet of defense Kobe was ever close to him in.

[StrongLurk]

Everyone knows this. Kobe was still an elite defender, but I'd give him 5 all-nba defense awards MAX. The fact that he has 12 is ridiculous lol. It would be one thing if he was like MJ racking up steals titles or like Dwade as the GOAT SG shot blocker, but Kobe wasn't like THAT. Not saying blocks/steals automatically equal good defense, but there is a correlation.

[k0kakw0rld]

Go wipe your mom’s ass you ****** ass canadian bitch
I know it's painful to witness a Canadian running your league but damn nxqqa, your tears are so salty :roll:

https://i.postimg.cc/RCYdG0JY/Screenshot-20250725-092807-Facebook.jpg (https://postimg.cc/hh9Vtcr8)

Your level of maturity on full display here. How does it feel to have your league being dominated by a Canadian, by the way? And international players. Change that shit to IBA (International basketball association) already. I mean Shai, Jokic, Luka, Giannis are running this league. :biggums:

[SouBeachTalents]

I know it's painful to witness a Canadian running your league but damn nxqqa, your tears are so salty :roll:

https://i.postimg.cc/RCYdG0JY/Screenshot-20250725-092807-Facebook.jpg (https://postimg.cc/hh9Vtcr8)

Your level of maturity on full display here. How does it feel to have your league being dominated by a Canadian, by the way? And international players. Change that shit to IBA (International basketball association) already. I mean Shai, Jokic, Luka, Giannis are running this league. :biggums:
It'd still be exclusive company regardless, but we both know you're including a completely bullshit award that's existed for 3 years to make this distinction.

[Hey Yo]

He said Kobe is the best two way player ever: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=pg4xWFugzf8

So when Teague says Kobe's D is overrated, it's "he never played against peak Kobe and doesn't know what he's talking about.

But now Teague says Kobe's the best two way player ever abd it turns into "Teague knows what he's talking about!!!

[Phoenix]

Everyone knows this. Kobe was still an elite defender, but I'd give him 5 all-nba defense awards MAX. The fact that he has 12 is ridiculous lol. It would be one thing if he was like MJ racking up steals titles or like Dwade as the GOAT SG shot blocker, but Kobe wasn't like THAT. Not saying blocks/steals automatically equal good defense, but there is a correlation.

I was thinking you could maybe stretch it to 7 but not all of them would be first teams. Definitely not 12, especially 9 of them being first team. He wasn't a great post defender, and often got caught out of position. His best attribute was man defense, had great anticipation and lateral movement, but it got to a point when, especially in that mid 00s period when he was carrying the offense, he would get up for the big matchups( Wade, Vince, AI, Tmac, Allen etc). In terms of night in, night out defense at that point? Definitely not consistent enough to be all-defensive.

[999Guy]

I was thinking you could maybe stretch it to 7 but not all of them would be first teams. Definitely not 12, especially 9 of them being first team. He wasn't a great post defender, and often got caught out of position. His best attribute was man defense, had great anticipation and lateral movement, but it got to a point when, especially in that mid 00s period when he was carrying the offense, he would get up for the big matchups( Wade, Vince, AI, Tmac, Allen etc). In terms of night in, night out defense at that point? Definitely not consistent enough to be all-defensive.He absolutely never had great lateral movement. He got beat off the dribble like mad at his quickest in 2000.

[Phoenix]

He absolutely never had great lateral movement. He got beat off the dribble like mad at his quickest in 2000.

That's relative. Compared to like prime MJ? No. Compared to other similar sized wings of his era? Everyone's gonna get torched multiple times defending a position where, in Kobe's prime, alot of the elite athletes resided. I mean who was beating him off the dribble like mad back in 2000? Iverson? Iverson crossed the shit out of everyone back then. I mean, I agree that Kobe is overrated as a defender in terms of all-defensive selections but lets not carried away. He wasn't historically great in terms of lateral movement, but it was great enough to make man defense basically the best part of his game from a defensive POV.

[Phoenix]

So this thread had me looking up some defensive stats from some of the early 2000's, notably with respects to Kobe's all-defensive team selections. In 2001, I would argue the 1st team shooting SG next to Jason Kidd should have been Eddie Jones who was 27th in DWS, 14th in DRtg, and 8th in DBPM. For comparison, Kobe was 94th, 119th and 110th respectively in those categories and made 2nd team. Even more egregiously, Gary Payton was 132nd, 157th and 126th in those categories and made first team. So maybe they were going off vibes or something back then, but based on those numbers ( and this is taking into account that they're just numbers that require context, something people bring up or ignore based on who they're arguing for or against), neither Payton or Kobe should have sniffed the all-defensive team that year.

EDIT: I just realized, did 2001 Kobe benefit from a......drumroll....... winning spotlight 2nd option/secondary producer vote?
https://media.tenor.com/a6Fby9Afx2EAAAAC/thierry-henry.gif

[Tavr]

So this thread had me looking up some defensive stats from some of the early 2000's, notably with respects to Kobe's all-defensive team selections. In 2001, I would argue the 1st team shooting SG next to Jason Kidd should have been Eddie Jones who was 27th in DWS, 14th in DRtg, and 8th in DBPM. For comparison, Kobe was 94th, 119th and 110th respectively in those categories and made 2nd team. Even more egregiously, Gary Payton was 132nd, 157th and 126th in those categories and made first team. So maybe they were going off vibes or something back then, but based on those numbers ( and this is taking into account that they're just numbers that require context, something people bring up or ignore based on who they're arguing for or against), neither Payton or Kobe should have sniffed the all-defensive team that year.

Its great that you looked back and did some research. One thing I would say though is to be careful using stats like DBPM/DRG/DWS. They are derived from the box score (blocks and steals) and heavily impacted by teammates and lineups, especially DRTG. Overall, you should look into defensive regularized adjusted plus minus or "DRAPM". It has its flaws like any other stat, but DRAPM uses regression, which help mitigate teammates (accounting for the influence of other players on the court) and the box-score (completely thrown out). As a result, it isolate a player's individual contribution to a team's success. You could say its "pure" impact, so long as you're taking minutes and possessions into consideration.

Since there is regression and noise in a 1 year sample, a good sample size would be the early 2000s. Like you mentioned. Around that time period (2000-2003 or 2000-2004 if you want to stretch it there), Kobe was a net plus. I haven't looked at Eddie Jones, Jason Kidd or Kobe's peers in comparison, but for a player of his caliber (top 2-3 nearly every year in ORAPM) that's very respectable.

[Phoenix]

Its great that you looked back and did some research. One thing I would say though is to be careful using stats like DBPM/DRG/DWS. They are derived from the box score (blocks and steals) and heavily impacted by teammates and lineups, especially DRTG. Overall, you should look into defensive regularized adjusted plus minus or "DRAPM". It has its flaws like any other stat, but DRAPM uses regression, which help mitigate teammates (accounting for the influence of other players on the court) and the box-score (completely thrown out). As a result, it isolate a player's individual contribution to a team's success. You could say its "pure" impact, so long as you're taking minutes and possessions into consideration.

Since there is regression and noise in a 1 year sample, a good sample size would be the early 2000s. Like you mentioned. Around that time period (2000-2003 or 2000-2004 if you want to stretch it there), Kobe was a net plus. I haven't looked at Eddie Jones, Jason Kidd or Kobe's peers in comparison, but for a player of his caliber (top 2-3 nearly every year in ORAPM) that's very respectable.

Oh I am, which is why I said *and this is taking into account that they're just numbers that require context, something people bring up or ignore based on who they're arguing for or against*. What I would say is that certain people here heavily use advanced stats to make their argument, but when it doesn't favor them they say 'bu bu but context'( not you, to be clear). In fairness, the Lakers that year were 21st in DRtg overall in 2001, so they weren't a good defensive team by any stretch and Kobe's individual metrics would fall victim to that.

Generally though, when you look at the DPOY selections you'll find that the winner tends to be highly ranked in those categories, thus within reason you'd expect the all-defensive selections to also be reflective of this( taking into account what you said). Of course you can sort through any year and find exceptions, so I stress 'generally'. Without that they'd have to be using some other value(s). Steals and blocks ( which in the case of steals, doesn't equate to being a great defender otherwise Allen Iverson would be all-defensive)? But Kobe's stats in those categories weren't elite either( 1.7spg is decent, 0.6 blocks isn't), so it does beg the question of what metrics were used, if any. Or were they going off something like observable effort, something pretty much impossible to quantify? I did look up his 2000 stats yesterday,he was 14th in DRtg, 10th in DWS and 24th in DBPM, and the Lakers were first overall in team DRtg so a rising tide effect. But in general, along with Shaq that year it should be easier to quantity their individual defensive efforts towards the teams overall elite ranking( both made all-defensive, Kobe on the first team and Shaq on the 2nd). A bit harder, or should be, to give someone all-defensive credit when your team is near the bottom of the league defensively.

It is interesting though, because for example the Suns in 2001 were the top ranked defensive team with the two primary defensive players being perimeter players, Kidd and Marion, and they both ranked highly in the aforementioned metrics. So while it's not an exact science, their individual metrics correlated with an elite team defense, not something you could say about the 2001 Lakers and Kobe's metrics, and you had guys like Derek Fisher, Rick Fox, Robert Horry, Horace Grant, Ron Harper on the team so it's curious that they weren't a great defensive team with most of the same personal from 2000. Some of that could be attributed to the level of effort Shaq gave defensively in 2000 vs 2001.

But I'm not picking on Kobe exclusively, because as I said Payton had even worse metrics in 2001 and the Sonics were an even worse defensive team( 24th ranked). So in these examples they're rating individual defense within the context of teams that weren't good defensively. I suppose it begs the question of, should someone on a lowly ranked defensive team warrant all-defensive selection unless their own raw stats( say steals, blocks, defensive rebounds) justify it at the individual level.

[Axe]

Kobe would have been better defensively if he's so good at making his shots sink off illegal and moving screens set by his own teammates bt.


Now THAT's retarded.
https://i.ibb.co/XZ5qVsYf/Screenshot-20250703-235925.jpg (https://i.ibb.co/RPktct9/IMG-20241018-113551.jpg)

[Tavr]

Oh I am, which is why I said *and this is taking into account that they're just numbers that require context, something people bring up or ignore based on who they're arguing for or against*. What I would say is that certain people here heavily use advanced stats to make their argument, but when it doesn't favor them they say 'bu bu but context'( not you, to be clear). In fairness, the Lakers that year were 21st in DRtg overall in 2001, so they weren't a good defensive team by any stretch and Kobe's individual metrics would fall victim to that.

Generally though, when you look at the DPOY selections you'll find that the winner tends to be highly ranked in those categories, thus within reason you'd expect the all-defensive selections to also be reflective of this( taking into account what you said). Of course you can sort through any year and find exceptions, so I stress 'generally'. Without that they'd have to be using some other value(s). Steals and blocks ( which in the case of steals, doesn't equate to being a great defender otherwise Allen Iverson would be all-defensive)? But Kobe's stats in those categories weren't elite either( 1.7spg is decent, 0.6 blocks isn't), so it does beg the question of what metrics were used, if any. Or were they going off something like observable effort, something pretty much impossible to quantify? I did look up his 2000 stats yesterday,he was 14th in DRtg, 10th in DWS and 24th in DBPM, and the Lakers were first overall in team DRtg so a rising tide effect. But in general, along with Shaq that year it should be easier to quantity their individual defensive efforts towards the teams overall elite ranking( both made all-defensive, Kobe on the first team and Shaq on the 2nd). A bit harder, or should be, to give someone all-defensive credit when your team is near the bottom of the league defensively.

It is interesting though, because for example the Suns in 2001 were the top ranked defensive team with the two primary defensive players being perimeter players, Kidd and Marion, and they both ranked highly in the aforementioned metrics. So while it's not an exact science, their individual metrics correlated with an elite team defense, not something you could say about the 2001 Lakers and Kobe's metrics, and you had guys like Derek Fisher, Rick Fox, Robert Horry, Horace Grant, Ron Harper on the team so it's curious that they weren't a great defensive team with most of the same personal from 2000. Some of that could be attributed to the level of effort Shaq gave defensively in 2000 vs 2001.

So when it comes to all-defensive teams and DPOYs it can get tough because of narratives. The media will hammer a talking point and it’ll run rampant through the season, which fans inevitably adopt. I’m not saying these awards don’t matter although the criteria implemented is weak and very inconsistent. Kobe making all-defensive teams past the 2010 season is a pretty good example of that.

The players mentioned who fair well in these advanced stats (and being reflected with the team rating) definitely makes sense. They also rank well in things like RAPM and that has nothing to do with the box score. I remember reading somewhere that a handful of voters in the media had VIP access to misc analytics (fans now pay to see this information). For example, shots altered in the paint, points allowed in the paint; shots altered by a player; field goals allowed on a player and so forth. These things line up with play-by-play data and generally are considered higher value.

By the way, both 2001 Kidd and Marion ranked well in DRAPM. Its 1 season and no doubt noisy however they were ~+1. That’s great for most perimeter players. I’m not surprised both had top tier DRTG though. Marion especially (rated #3). Not only did he accumulate many blocks and steals, but Phoenix was also elite defensively and that influences the individual rating. I mean, nobody thinks Marion was actually better on defense than Duncan... All stats have anomalies but come on lol.

On another note, I’m not JUST about the eye test but it's clearly most important. Honestly what beats watching film? I’d follow that up with a deep dive on impact to see how the data aligns with my opinion. Raw stats would probably be last on my priority and as we mentioned, they would need context and a lot of precaution :lol

[Phoenix]

So when it comes to all-defensive teams and DPOYs it can get tough because of narratives. The media will hammer a talking point and it’ll run rampant through the season, which fans inevitably adopt. I’m not saying these awards don’t matter although the criteria implemented is weak and very inconsistent. Kobe making all-defensive teams past the 2010 season is a pretty good example of that.

The players mentioned who fair well in these advanced stats (and being reflected with the team rating) definitely makes sense. They also rank well in things like RAPM and that has nothing to do with the box score. I remember reading somewhere that a handful of voters in the media had VIP access to misc analytics (fans now pay to see this information). For example, shots altered in the paint, points allowed in the paint; shots altered by a player; field goals allowed on a player and so forth. These things line up with play-by-play data and generally are considered higher value.

By the way, both 2001 Kidd and Marion ranked well in DRAPM. Its 1 season and no doubt noisy however they were ~+1. That’s great for most perimeter players. I’m not surprised both had top tier DRTG though. Marion especially (rated #3). Not only did he accumulate many blocks and steals, but Phoenix was also elite defensively and that influences the individual rating. I mean, nobody thinks Marion was actually better on defense than Duncan... All stats have anomalies but come on lol.

On another note, I’m not JUST about the eye test but it's clearly most important. Honestly what beats watching film? I’d follow that up with a deep dive on impact to see how the data aligns with my opinion. Raw stats would probably be last on my priority and as we mentioned, they would need context and a lot of precaution :lol

What you say about narratives often applies to the MVP award as well. Maybe about a month in the season, the media seems to 'select' an early favorite and tend to run with it. There's a 'paying dues' aspect often mentioned in these things. Case in point, this year there was very early buzz that this was SGA's year. And he was a deserving selection, but it got to a point when it was clear that Jokic couldn't do much to shine the light onto him. His numbers have been eye-popping for years now, but this season he added himself to the list of triple double seasons( and I would say it's probably the best one ever, taking into account his efficiency and the fact that it's a center doing it).

Kidd and Marion's 2001 selections were legit, both within a team context as well as an individual one ( I'm not sure if you were of the impression I was challenging their picks with your info on DRAPM, but we're on the same page there). I think if you want to get into the observable or eye test, they were legit choices. Their own individual numbers also speak to it; Marion averaged 8 defensive boards( nearly 11 overall), 1.7 steals and 1.6 blocks, across the board I would say those are great raw numbers for a small forward. J-Kidd averaged 5 defensive rebounds, 2.2 steals but only 0.3 blocks but again, a combination of raw and advanced numbers and eye test comes through here. Which circles us back to Kobe in 2001, in the absence of either his own raw defensive numbers being that great or the team defense overall, it would have had to be either an eye test thing or a reputation selection because again, I think they could have gone with Eddie Jones in 2001. But when you look at Kobe's 2000 year, there was probably some carry over even if the teams defensive rankings didn't reflect it, the voters felt his own individual effort didn't suffer. But as said earlier, Payton was probably the biggest 'reputation' based pick that year. He was still playing defense but I don't know about first team all-NBA level.

I have doubt that the media watches film that intensively. You have guys like Stephen A Smith and other daily talking heads like that with award votes, and hearing them talk you don't walk away with the sense that they are actually looking deep under the surface when making these decisions.

[Tavr]

What you say about narratives often applies to the MVP award as well. Maybe about a month in the season, the media seems to 'select' an early favorite and tend to run with it. There's a 'paying dues' aspect often mentioned in these things. Case in point, this year there was very early buzz that this was SGA's year. And he was a deserving selection, but it got to a point when it was clear that Jokic couldn't do much to shine the light onto him. His numbers have been eye-popping for years now, but this season he added himself to the list of triple double seasons( and I would say it's probably the best one ever, taking into account his efficiency and the fact that it's a center doing it).

Kidd and Marion's 2001 selections were legit, both within a team context as well as an individual one ( I'm not sure if you were of the impression I was challenging their picks with your info on DRAPM, but we're on the same page there). I think if you want to get into the observable or eye test, they were legit choices. Their own individual numbers also speak to it; Marion averaged 8 defensive boards( nearly 11 overall), 1.7 steals and 1.6 blocks, across the board I would say those are great raw numbers for a small forward. J-Kidd averaged 5 defensive rebounds, 2.2 steals but only 0.3 blocks but again, a combination of raw and advanced numbers and eye test comes through here. Which circles us back to Kobe in 2001, in the absence of either his own raw defensive numbers being that great or the team defense overall, it would have had to be either an eye test thing or a reputation selection because again, I think they could have gone with Eddie Jones in 2001. But when you look at Kobe's 2000 year, there was probably some carry over even if the teams defensive rankings didn't reflect it, the voters felt his own individual effort didn't suffer. But as said earlier, Payton was probably the biggest 'reputation' based pick that year. He was still playing defense but I don't know about first team all-NBA level.

I have doubt that the media watches film that intensively. You have guys like Stephen A Smith and other daily talking heads like that with award votes, and hearing them talk you don't walk away with the sense that they are actually looking deep under the surface when making these decisions.

Absolutely to the bold and I also agree with your Jokic/SGA point. There were definitely talks about Jokic winning his third straight, but post ASG they quickly died. This time, the media went to their "best player on the best team" narrative. With regards to '01 Marion and Kidd, I wasn't under the impression you were challenging my point. I actually wanted to expound on looking past raw numbers. That was all. I think we're more or less in agreement here.

Not all voters because there are a few who understand what they're talking about...but some...really don't watch film in a way they should. Its why they'll cling to x/y/z stats and dumb narratives. I get called a Westbrook hater all the time, but how he got MVP was all messed up. The media scrapped their criteria and awarded someone averaging a 'pretty' triple-double on a mediocre team. All in all, I'm not saying MVPs and DPOYs are arbitrary but the criteria certainly is. A little consistency would be great.

[k0kakw0rld]

It'd still be exclusive company regardless, but we both know you're including a completely bullshit award that's existed for 3 years to make this distinction.
It's only exclusive when none of your American players wins it...Next!

[j3lademaster]

It's only exclusive when none of your American players wins it...Next!

It honestly would have looked a lot more impressive without trying to weasel in the conf finals mvp thing. You know how many players won the scoring title, mvp and fmvp all in the same season? MJ, KAJ, Shaq and SGA. That is damn impressive company. No Kobe, no Bird, no Hakeem, no TD, no Lebron, no Wade, no Dirk, no Steph, no KD; just MJ, Shaq, KAJ and SGA.

[k0kakw0rld]

It honestly would have looked a lot more impressive without trying to weasel in the conf finals mvp thing. You know how many players won the scoring title, mvp and fmvp all in the same season? MJ, KAJ, Shaq and SGA. That is damn impressive company. No Kobe, no Bird, no Hakeem, no TD, no Lebron, no Wade, no Dirk, no Steph, no KD; just MJ, Shaq, KAJ and SGA.
Since the conference MVP does not matter. With or without does not change what you just said. It is absolutely impressive considering the fact that the man is the ONLY PG to do so.

[Phoenix]

Not all voters because there are a few who understand what they're talking about...but some...really don't watch film in a way they should. Its why they'll cling to x/y/z stats and dumb narratives. I get called a Westbrook hater all the time, but how he got MVP was all messed up. The media scrapped their criteria and awarded someone averaging a 'pretty' triple-double on a mediocre team. All in all, I'm not saying MVPs and DPOYs are arbitrary but the criteria certainly is. A little consistency would be great.

As historic as Westbrook's triple double season was in the context of it being the first since Oscar's heyday, him going on to do it 4 times or whatever the final count was diluted the significance of it. Jokic doing it this year, especially as a big as I said before, is insane. 30/13/10 with 32 PER and 66%TS may be the greatest non-MVP season ever( and one of the greatest in general, MVP or otherwise), at least in the modern era( post 1980) and was merely a blip on the radar.

[Tavr]

As historic as Westbrook's triple double season was in the context of it being the first since Oscar's heyday, him going on to do it 4 times or whatever the final count was diluted the significance of it. Jokic doing it this year, especially as a big as I said before, is insane. 30/13/10 with 32 PER and 66%TS may be the greatest non-MVP season ever( and one of the greatest in general, MVP or otherwise), at least in the modern era( post 1980) and was merely a blip on the radar.

Its also a testament to the lack of defense being played. The regular-season today more so than ever needs context (and an asterisk if you're comparing numbers across an era). Obviously LeBron isn't better than he was in Miami, but last year averaged the same points as a Laker lol. Imagine what he would do in his prime...

[Phoenix]

Its also a testament to the lack of defense being played. The regular-season today more so than ever needs context (and an asterisk if you're comparing numbers across an era). Obviously LeBron isn't better than he was in Miami, but last year averaged the same points as a Laker lol. Imagine what he would do in his prime...

Also averaged 30 back in 2022. Neither today's numbers nor the 60's can be compared to anything else. Frankly, I've said on here multiple times that there's been like 4-5 versions of the NBA over nearly 80 years. It's why I'm a big proponent of tier rankings over just ranking players in sequence. You can't compare someone from the 90s to the 60s just as you can't compare someone from today to the 90s. It's really about relative dominance against your peers, that's about the best you can do now.

[Tavr]

Also averaged 30 back in 2022. Neither today's numbers nor the 60's can be compared to anything else. Frankly, I've said on here multiple times that there's been like 4-5 versions of the NBA over nearly 80 years. It's why I'm a big proponent of tier rankings over just ranking players in sequence. You can't compare someone from the 90s to the 60s just as you can't compare someone from today to the 90s. It's really about relative dominance against your peers, that's about the best you can do now.

Just ridiculous :lol Ranking in tiers is actually a good idea, and I think we talked about that in another thread. I'm pretty big on Dwyane Wade and feel he's one of the most underrated players all-time. Implementing a tier system would give DWade a more "justified" ranking.