"Duos" like Shaq/Kobe or Bron/AD have close ppg, so MJ's 15 more than Pip isn't a duo

[3ba11]

,
It's a 1-man team:



CAREER FINALS

Jordan..... 34 ppg... 6.0 apg... 2.8 TO.. 48%.. goat clutch
Pippen..... 19 ppg... 5.9 apg... 3.3 TO.. 42%.. zero clutch (worst-ever)


CAREER PLAYOFFS WITH BULLS

Jordan..... 33 ppg... 5.7 apg... 3.1 TO.. 49%
Pippen..... 18 ppg... 5.3 apg... 2.9 TO.. 45%

[1987_Lakers]

What about Wilt and Jerry West?

Sam Jones averaged around 10 more PPG than Bill Russell, but Russell was the undisputed best player.

[3ba11]

.






What about Wilt and Jerry West?



Wilt was way past prime like 2010 Shaq, so it doesn't really count

And Pippen was never elite in any category, so don't compare him to Wilt and Russell's 25 rpg and 10 blocks - Pippen's defense was similar to Igoudala, Butler or Marion and can't be compared to goat defensive bigs . So you're reaching big time.






Sam Jones averaged around 10 more PPG than Bill Russell, but Russell was the undisputed best player.




"Duos" refers to a duo of comparable offensive stars on 1 team.. Russell's defense wouldn't qualify as being a duo anymore than Lebron and Ben Wallace...

Also, it's become common knowledge that the 2-pointer era lacked spacing, so defense won titles and MVP's could be defenders like Russell, Unseld and others... Otoh, once 3-pointer basketball began, 45 of 45 MVP's have been dominant offensive players, so we know that Russell wouldn't be MVP-caliber in today's game.. That's why his 11 chips aren't relevant to offensive/modern basketball, which requires offensive dominance to be the best, or anywhere near.

[1987_Lakers]

Wilt was way past prime like 2010 Shaq, so it doesn't really count


Wilt won FMVP in '72, 2010 Shaq isn't coming close to doing that.

[SouBeachTalents]

Stockton & Malone were famously also never a duo too.

[3ba11]

Stockton & Malone were famously also never a duo too.


Goat floor generals count as a duo like Kareem/Magic or Stockton/Malone, but the reality is that both of these duos frequently averaged the same PPG, such as Stockton carrying the Jazz to the 97' Finals with 21/11 and the historic walk-off in Barkley's face.. Stockton also turned into Michael Jordan in clutch-time - literally - Stockton and Jordan stand alone the clutch-time stats for 1997 Playoffs and Finals.

So again, only Pippen never got anywhere near Jordan and never took over or got doubled, so it wasn't a "duo" - it was a 1-man team

[3ba11]

[youtube]
https://youtube.com/shorts/58K770Ld-kg?si=NSUSnJW9E6ULw8CU

[youtube]
https://youtube.com/shorts/4LMxdMV97LU?si=0Tf7AX0HU4wvbddM




Skip to 5:21 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-0GmTWyplOc&t=05m21s) mark:



[youtube]
https://youtu.be/-0GmTWyplOc?si=hXrhBjndY34WOC_k




Pippen cratered outside the triangle in Houston despite being healthy for the first time since his injury in 97', while his dunk frequency remained the same as previous years:



https://i.makeagif.com/media/7-15-2022/7D0vE4.gif


Pippen entered the league as a 7.9 ppg rookie and he never reached 15 ppg outside the triangle - he simply learned the triangle to barely scrape 20 ppg on bad efficiency.

And Pippen grew by leaps and bounds alongside MJ - few rookies have ever grown that fast - for example, we know that zero players grew into meaningful producers on Lebron's watch... So the idea that Jordan was holding Pippen down is false due to Pippen's historic growth alongside MJ, and also Pippen playing to capacity alongside MJ, aka Pippen had lower PPG + APG in 94' than his highs alongside MJ in 92', so Pippen was already playing at capacity alongside MJ, or pretty close.

[3ba11]

.
We can demonstrate how weak Pippen was by looking at the 2009 season of Lebron's career.

Specifically, Lebron's drive-heavy attack only won 45 games in 2008 and needed all-star spacing to win 66 + MVP in 2009 (and 2013)... Essentially, Lebron's stiff-arm game can't win 60 + MVP without great spacing, so Pippen's bricklaying would be an inferior sidekick than Mo was.. And the Cavs already had better-ranked defense (3rd) than the 1st three-peat Bulls (#7).. Accordingly, Mo's elite spacing was the ideal sidekick for Lebron, while Pippen told Rachel Nichols that he can't provide the spacing that certain players need and actually compared himself to a bad Westbrick fit - skip to 2:01 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XmBbmIE_Kxc&t=121s) mark:



[youtube]
https://youtu.be/XmBbmIE_Kxc?si=CCiQAOSyncBY71z8



So Pippen could never provide the spacing to open up Lebron's stiff-arm game and win 66 games.. Therefore, Mo was a better teammate for Lebron than Pippen would be... Now if Pippen was a dominant scorer, than his dominance could supersede the bad fit.. But Pippen only averaged 17.8 in 1991, which is the same as Mo in 2009, so the bad fit is EVERYTHING.. It's simply a fact that pippen's historic bricklaying and lack of "closing" ability is the worst fit possible for LeChoke's stiff-arm.

[SouBeachTalents]

Goat floor generals count as a duo like Kareem/Magic or Stockton/Malone, but the reality is that both of these duos frequently averaged the same PPG, such as Stockton carrying the Jazz to the 97' Finals with 21/11 and the historic walk-off in Barkley's face.. Stockton also turned into Michael Jordan in clutch-time - literally - Stockton and Jordan stand alone the clutch-time stats for 1997 Playoffs and Finals.

So again, only Pippen never got anywhere near Jordan and never took over or got doubled, so it wasn't a "duo" - it was a 1-man team
Well, I'm not about to try to refute as blatant a lie as Stockton frequently averaging the same ppg as Malone, but you're welcome for the attention of this reply anyway.

[3ba11]

Well, I'm not about to try to refute as blatant a lie as Stockton frequently averaging the same ppg as Malone, but you're welcome for the attention of this reply anyway.


Magic and Kareem averaged similar PPG all the time, while Stockton did in the biggest series of their career (97' WCF) and routinely led in clutch-time.

But the point is that goat producers of APG can be part of a duo, which is why Stockton/Malone and Magic/Kareem were always called a duo.

But Pippen barely reached 5-7 APG and was never elite in PPG, APG or RPG, so he isn't part of a "duo" like you say Stockton or Russell, or Wilt are... Again, Pippen can't be compared to all-time floor generals or goat defensive centers... and he doesn't qualify for duo via ppg either, so MJ/Pippen weren't a duo

[Tavr]

MJ carried massive scoring weight during the late 80s and for several postseason runs during the second-threepeat. No doubt about it.


And Pippen was never elite in any category,

When you say 'category' are you talking about statistics or just in general? I think one could argue there were years Pippen was elite defensively. Do you disagree?

[3ba11]

MJ carried massive scoring weight during the late 80s and for several postseason runs during the second-threepeat. No doubt about it.



When you say 'category' are you talking about statistics or just in general? I think you could argue there were years Pippen was elite defensively. Do you disagree?


Pippen wasn't elite in PPG, RPG or APG - if the bulls needed elite APG of 8-11 per game, Jordan was the only option - Jordan was the only guy on the team with a breakdown handle, or elite passing ability... Pippen barely scraped 5 APG

[Tavr]

Pippen wasn't elite in PPG, RPG or APG - if the bulls needed elite APG of 8+ assists, Jordan was the only option - Jordan was the only guy on the team with a breakdown handle, or elite passing ability.

So statistical categories. Yeah... I mean, no argument there.

[3ba11]

[youtube]
https://m.youtube.com/shorts/sOj-k3ogQew




So statistical categories. Yeah... I mean, no argument there.


And I would ask you where opposing SF's say Pippen locked them down... I've never heard Grant Hill, Glenn Robinson, Dominique , Jamal Mashburn or Chris Mullin laud Pippen's defense because they all destroyed him.

Pippen was a great defender but it's been overrated over the years - the media couldn't compliment his offense, so they got good at lauding his defense,- hence the overrating.. it's that simple... And also playing alongside MJ and the winning spotlight - career 2nd options don't get media accolade with losing teams and normally in need tremendous winning spotlight to make All-NBA

[Tavr]

And I would ask you where opposing SF's say Pippen locked them down... I've never heard Grant Hill, Glenn Robinson, Dominique , Jamal Mashburn or Chris Mullin laud Pippen's defense because they all destroyed him.

Pippen was a great defender but it's been overrated over the years - the media couldn't compliment his offense, so they got good at lauding his defense,- hence the overrating.. it's that simple... And also playing alongside MJ and the winning spotlight - career 2nd options don't get media accolade with losing teams and normally in need tremendous winning spotlight to make All-NBA

Conversely, I watched Pippen clamp Mark Jackson in one of the games from that conference finals. Have also seen Pippen shut down Barkley in a regular-season game during the mid 90s. Broader point though, I'm not saying he was some lockdown defender, but I also don't think you can simply gauge that end off man defense. Pippen was always praised for his HELP defense and there are testimonials of that all over the internet. I'm sure you know that though.

And definitely agree that Pippen gets overrated. No more so than bringing him up as the player Jordan 'needed' to win a playoff series. :lol

[StrongLurk]

Pip went 6/6 in the finals. Easily Co-GOAT of the 90's.

[Full Court]

Pip went 6/6 in the finals. Easily Co-GOAT of the 90's.

Man, Pippen has a WAAAAAAYYYYYY better finals record than LeShrivel. :roll:

Lebron in the 90s wouldn't even be Jordan's B side.

[1987_Lakers]

Wilt won FMVP in '72, 2010 Shaq isn't coming close to doing that.

3ball dodged this.

Bron fam wins again

[warriorfan]

3ball dodged this.

Bron fam wins again

you are 5’8”

[3ba11]

Conversely, I watched Pippen clamp Mark Jackson in one of the games from that conference finals. Have also seen Pippen shut down Barkley in a regular-season game during the mid 90s. Broader point though, I'm not saying he was some lockdown defender, but I also don't think you can simply gauge that end off man defense. Pippen was always praised for his HELP defense and there are testimonials of that all over the internet. I'm sure you know that though.

And definitely agree that Pippen gets overrated. No more so than bringing him up as the player Jordan 'needed' to win a playoff series. :lol


Mark Jackson was the slowest point guard in NBA history - the fact that he's your example makes my point.. Pippen never locked down anyone good as the primary defender... Only Jordan did.

[RRR3]

Mark Jackson was the slowest point guard in NBA history - the fact that he's your example makes my point.. Pippen never locked down anyone good as the primary defender... Only Jordan did.
Stupidball still doesn't realize that team defense is more impactful than man to man :yaohappy:

[1987_Lakers]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eOoWZNp0AlA

GOAT perimeter defender.

Ben Taylor already exposed MJ's overrated defense.

[1987_Lakers]

Kawhi & Pippen are the only perimeter players ever to lead the league in Defensive Rating.

Players who usually lead the league in that department are big men who play on good/elite defensive teams.

The fact that Pippen led the league in DRTG in '95 with no Horace & with MJ missing 65 games should tell you how good he was on the defensive end. Bulls still had the #2 defense that season. Kawhi at least had Duncan.

[Tavr]

Mark Jackson was the slowest point guard in NBA history - the fact that he's your example makes my point.. Pippen never locked down anyone good as the primary defender... Only Jordan did.

A few things...

1. Mark Jackson is 6th all-time in assists and one of the best ever at his position. Barkley was also mentioned, but apparently you missed that. All of this is really beside the point though.

2. You nor I never claimed Pippen was a "lock down" defender. And we both agree he gets overrated in these discussions. With that being said though, surely you take into account help/team defense, which in most cases is both more important and impactful.