09' Mo outproduced 16' Klay

[3ba11]

09' MO......... 2.3 BPM... 0.165 WS.48... 3.1 VORP... 17.2 PER
16' KLAY...... 1.8 BPM... 0.144 WS/48... 2.5 VORP... 18.6 PER


Mo was growing by leaps and bounds every year, and his peak stats in 2009 were part of this yearly growth, but then injuries destroyed his career thereafter.

But it shouldn't matter that Mo had a short prime because Lebron was an OKC-level favorite with Mo in 2009 - Lebron caught the best version of Mo, and they were supposed to win in 2009... Unfortunately, Lebron was exposed at 38 ppg by being too ball-dominant at that scoring level to beat top teams, and he also had his first major choke, aka 7 TO's in the 4th of Game 4, which swung the series.. Lebron turned into a 12 TO per game player in clutch time of that series.. Lebron said himself that he "f*cked up and lost in 2009" - he said that himself.. He had no diversity back then, aka no post game, zero mid-range, weak jumper - only a downhill player.... Again, the upset loss in 2009 was like OKC losing to the Pacers in this year's Finals, so it was an all-time upset (-700 ffavorite).

Similar to Curry in 2016, Lebron was supposed to win the title in 2009, and Mo even outproduced 16' Klay... Infact, the CONSENSUS was that the 15' Warriors weren't a good roster, such as +2800 preseason odds and a lower producer than Hornacek at 2nd option.. So the 67 and 73 wins means that Curry did a goat thing, not Lebron.. Lebron doesn't deserve props for beating a 1-man team with the only "big 3" super-team in the league and the preseason favorite.. Ultimately, Curry has always needed less talent because his skillset produces better chemistry and ball movement.. It's intuitive..

[ShawkFactory]

09 Lebron outproduced ‘92 Jordan.

[sdot_thadon]

16 Klay played defense too.

[StrongLurk]

Curry choked in 2016 facing a healthy Lebron.

Curry also reduced Klay Thompson to a spot up role.

Curry also reduced Steve Kerr to a g-league level coach.

Curry also cried on the phone to KD and asked KD to help him beat Lebron.

It's intuitive...

[3ba11]

09 Lebron outproduced ‘92 Jordan.


Since dominant 1st options take the biggest chunk of the shots, their scoring style (aka ball-dominant vs off-ball) dictates brand of ball, fits, ball movement and team chemistry, so stats aren't the only consideration - the method of achieving the stats matters.

Otoh, 2nd options are essentially robots that follow the brand of ball dictated by the 1st option, so their stats can be compared directly.

And again, it shouldn't matter that Mo had a short prime cut short by injuries because Lebron was an OKC-level favorite with Mo in 2009 - Lebron caught the best version of Mo, and they were supposed to win in 2009... Unfortunately, Lebron was exposed at 38 ppg by being too ball-dominant at that scoring level to beat top teams, and he also had his first major choke, aka 7 TO's in the 4th of Game 4, which swung the series.. Lebron turned into a 12 TO per game player in clutch time of that series.. Lebron said himself that he "f*cked up and lost in 2009" - he said that himself.. He had no diversity back then, aka no post game, zero mid-range, weak jumper - only a downhill player.... Again, the upset loss in 2009 was like OKC losing to the Pacers in this year's Finals, so it was an all-time upset (-700 ffavorite).

[ShawkFactory]

Since dominant 1st options take the biggest chunk of the shots, their scoring style (aka ball-dominant vs off-ball) dictates brand of ball, fits, ball movement and team chemistry, so stats aren't the only consideration - the method of achieving the stats matters.

Otoh, 2nd options are essentially robots that follow the brand of ball dictated by the 1st option, so their stats can be compared directly.

And again, it shouldn't matter that Mo had a short prime cut short by injuries because Lebron was an OKC-level favorite with Mo in 2009 - Lebron caught the best version of Mo, and they were supposed to win in 2009... Unfortunately, Lebron was exposed at 38 ppg by being too ball-dominant at that scoring level to beat top teams, and he also had his first major choke, aka 7 TO's in the 4th of Game 4, which swung the series.. Lebron turned into a 12 TO per game player in clutch time of that series.. Lebron said himself that he "f*cked up and lost in 2009" - he said that himself.. He had no diversity back then, aka no post game, zero mid-range, weak jumper - only a downhill player.... Again, the upset loss in 2009 was like OKC losing to the Pacers in this year's Finals, so it was an all-time upset (-700 ffavorite).

Yes I get it, guys who aren't first options are all the same. Makes sense.

But Mo had by far the best year of his career based on the numbers you gave so doesn't it seem like the fit was great for him? No? Playoffs happened and the lack of defense and being dumb and severely undersized hurt them? No?

Fair enough.

[warriorfan]

+1

plus mo could handle the rock and pass

klay was better defender obviously but klay’s defense is historically overrated

plus mo had a modern day skillet that was in rarity back in 09’. He was one of tlhe elite guards of the Eastern Conference.

why do you think bron kept asking for more playmakers on the lakers?

he missed mo.

[ShawkFactory]

+1

plus mo could handle the rock and pass

klay was better defender obviously but klay’s defense is historically overrated

plus mo had a modern day skillet that was in rarity back in 09’. He was one of tlhe elite guards of the Eastern Conference.

why do you think bron kept asking for more playmakers on the lakers?

he missed mo.

Don't be a fool. If Mo Williams doesn't get traded to the Cavs literally none of us would ever remember who he was.

Fvck outta here with this "elite" shit :lol

[Carbine]

It's not historically overrated. Nobody is saying he was a generational defender, but he was very very close to being a deserving all NBA caliber defender for his years prior to injury.

You have a long history of down playing Klay though, which is very weird. It's like a Spurs fan shiting on Manu. Just weird weird shit to do as a fan for the Spurs/Warriors.

Agenda driven shit.

Anyways let's dig into the Mo thing and to a lesser extent big Z because those were his other 2 main guys. I want to say a look at how they did in the playoffs series they lost because ultimately that's what Lebron is given flake for - losing against Orlando and Boston.

Mo and Big Z accounted for 28.5 ppg between them on under 50TS which is very poor considering the team was on a 54TS

Add in the fact neither Big Z or Mo are known defenders of giving a lot of "intangible plays" like a Draymond would it's very easy for me to say this is shit help.


The following year when they lost against Boston:

It's now Mo and Jamieson. They combined for 25 on a hair over 50TS while the team shot 54.7TS

This is also clearly shit.

Thanks for this little exercise. It solidified that Lebron in fact had miserable help from his #2 and #3 options when they lost in those years.

[ShawkFactory]

It's not historically overrated. Nobody is saying he was a generational defender, but he was very very close to being a deserving all NBA caliber defender for his years prior to injury.

You have a long history of down playing Klay though, which is very weird. It's like a Spurs fan shiting on Manu. Just weird weird shit to do as a fan for the Spurs/Warriors.

Agenda driven shit.

Anyways let's dig into the Mo thing and to a lesser extent big Z because those were his other 2 main guys. I want to say a look at how they did in the playoffs series they lost because ultimately that's what Lebron is given flake for - losing against Orlando and Boston.

Mo and Big Z accounted for 28.5 ppg between them on under 50TS which is very poor considering the team was on a 54TS

Add in the fact neither Big Z or Mo are known defenders of giving a lot of "intangible plays" like a Draymond would it's very easy for me to say this is shit help.


The following year when they lost against Boston:

It's now Mo and Jamieson. They combined for 25 on a hair over 50TS while the team shot 54.7TS

This is also clearly shit.

Thanks for this little exercise. It solidified that Lebron in fact had miserable help from his #2 and #3 options when they lost in those years.

Solid exercise.

Given the numbers from the OP...'08 Mo Williams (before Cavs obviously) and '06 Smush Parker are not too dissimilar.

He was a God though that Lebron NEEDED.

[1987_Lakers]

It's not historically overrated. Nobody is saying he was a generational defender, but he was very very close to being a deserving all NBA caliber defender for his years prior to injury.

You have a long history of down playing Klay though, which is very weird. It's like a Spurs fan shiting on Manu. Just weird weird shit to do as a fan for the Spurs/Warriors.

Agenda driven shit.

Anyways let's dig into the Mo thing and to a lesser extent big Z because those were his other 2 main guys. I want to say a look at how they did in the playoffs series they lost because ultimately that's what Lebron is given flake for - losing against Orlando and Boston.

Mo and Big Z accounted for 28.5 ppg between them on under 50TS which is very poor considering the team was on a 54TS

Add in the fact neither Big Z or Mo are known defenders of giving a lot of "intangible plays" like a Draymond would it's very easy for me to say this is shit help.


The following year when they lost against Boston:

It's now Mo and Jamieson. They combined for 25 on a hair over 50TS while the team shot 54.7TS

This is also clearly shit.

Thanks for this little exercise. It solidified that Lebron in fact had miserable help from his #2 and #3 options when they lost in those years.

+1

[tpols]

16 Klay played defense too.


Barely.

2016 Kyrie killed him with bogut and dray out. Literally went off with Klay on him as primary defender.

https://i.pinimg.com/736x/5f/2f/c4/5f2fc44c326a3bb4c2cbeee980263d06.jpg

[3ba11]

doesn't it seem like the fit was great for him? No?





Mo's spacing was the perfect fit for LeDrive, which is why Lebron's stats skyrocketed across the board to MVP status - Mo's spacing made Lebron better and added 21 wins, while Pippen's bricklaying would be a horrible fit..

Pippen told Rachel Nichols that he can't space the floor or play that role, so Pippen can't elevate Lebron to 60 wins + MVP like elite shooters did in 09' and 13' (Mo and Ray)..







Playoffs happened





Mo's spacing produced the best chemistry that LeDrive ever had, but it still required Lebron to carry the scoring load in the playoffs, which Lebron can't do against top teams (too ball-dominant at high scoring levels)..

Accordingly, he lost with 18 o 38% from Mo, while MJ always won with that from Pippen and worse team defenses..






and the lack of defense





The 2009 Cavs had the #3 defense and a reputed defense that locked up teams throughout the 07' and 08' Playoffs - this included the 08' Celtics, who were locked up so much that they nearly lost despite 26 on 35% and 5 TO's from Lebron.






and being dumb





Lebron had the dumbest defensive blunder ever by guarding Courtney Lee to save energy, instead of his own position that was controlling the action (Hedo).

This defensive blunder cost the series on it's own, but Lebron's 7 TO's in the 4th of Game 4 also swung the series, along with excessive ball-dominance at high scoring levels and the worst clutch-time play of any all-timer - Lebron played well for 43 minutes but then disappeared in clutch-time, which lost three 4th quarter leads.. Lebron became a 12 TO per game player in clutch-time.






severely undersized hurt them? No?





What team are you talking about?.. The Cavs were huge.. And the only reason the Cavs lacked any size was because Lebron decided not to provide the size/length to guard Hedo and Rashard.

After the upset loss in 2009, Lebron was upset again in 2010 despite adding Jamison/Shaq to a 66-win league favorite - this is a mini version of adding KD to a 73-win team.. Jamison was a better scorer than Pippen, so it's pretty nice to have a better scorer than Pippen at 3rd option and better defenses than the 1st three-peat Bulls - Lebron had better help on both sides of the ball.

[Carbine]

Barely.

2016 Kyrie killed him with bogut and dray out. Literally went off with Klay on him as primary defender.

https://i.pinimg.com/736x/5f/2f/c4/5f2fc44c326a3bb4c2cbeee980263d06.jpg

This is how I know you are a troll. The game is very easily watchable for anyone to see the facts.

You choose to ignore them. I would say you're better than this but you're really not. This is par for the course for trollpols.

For anyone wondering:

Kyrie scores 11 points on Klay as the primary defender 28 vs other defenders. Two pts came off free throws.

This after the other thread where you +1 me saying Kobe wasn't given all of Reggies and some other players points when they were matched up. I don't care to find the response but you know which one it was which is all that matters.

[ShawkFactory]

Mo's spacing was the perfect fit for LeDrive, which is why Lebron's stats skyrocketed across the board to MVP status - Mo's spacing made Lebron better and added 21 wins, while Pippen's bricklaying would be a horrible fit..

Pippen told Rachel Nichols that he can't space the floor or play that role, so Pippen can't elevate Lebron to 60 wins + MVP like elite shooters did in 09' and 13' (Mo and Ray)..







Mo's spacing produced the best chemistry that LeDrive ever had, but it still required Lebron to carry the scoring load in the playoffs, which Lebron can't do against top teams (too ball-dominant at high scoring levels)..

Accordingly, he lost with 18 o 38% from Mo, while MJ always won with that from Pippen and worse team defenses..






The 2009 Cavs had the #3 defense and a reputed defense that locked up teams throughout the 07' and 08' Playoffs - this included the 08' Celtics, who were locked up so much that they nearly lost despite 26 on 35% and 5 TO's from Lebron.






Lebron had the dumbest defensive blunder ever by guarding Courtney Lee to save energy, instead of his own position that was controlling the action (Hedo).

This defensive blunder cost the series on it's own, but Lebron's 7 TO's in the 4th of Game 4 also swung the series, along with excessive ball-dominance at high scoring levels and the worst clutch-time play of any all-timer - Lebron played well for 43 minutes but then disappeared in clutch-time, which lost three 4th quarter leads.. Lebron became a 12 TO per game player in clutch-time.






What team are you talking about?.. The Cavs were huge.. And the only reason the Cavs lacked any size was because Lebron decided not to provide the size/length to guard Hedo and Rashard.

After the upset loss in 2009, Lebron was upset again in 2010 despite adding Jamison/Shaq to a 66-win league favorite - this is a mini version of adding KD to a 73-win team.. Jamison was a better scorer than Pippen, so it's pretty nice to have a better scorer than Pippen at 3rd option and better defenses than the 1st three-peat Bulls - Lebron had better help on both sides of the ball.

You actually took the time to do this?!

Jesus Christ dude you better be paid. You're objectively wrong but I respect the time I guess?

[tpols]

Klay simply wasnt good when it mattered most in the 2016 NBA Finals. He shot like shit with no injury and got lit up on defense. I dont care if you dont want to deal in facts.

[1987_Lakers]

This is how I know you are a troll. The game is very easily watchable for anyone to see the facts.

You choose to ignore them. I would say you're better than this but you're really not. This is par for the course for trollpols.

For anyone wondering:

Kyrie scores 11 points on Klay as the primary defender 28 vs other defenders. Two pts came off free throws.

This after the other thread where you +1 me saying Kobe wasn't given all of Reggies and some other players points when they were matched up. I don't care to find the response but you know which one it was which is all that matters.

tpols destroyed

[ShawkFactory]

Klay simply wasnt good when it mattered most in the 2016 NBA Finals. He shot like shit with no injury and got lit up on defense. I dont care if you dont want to deal in facts.

This is how you know someone has lost an argument.

[tpols]

Kyrie outplayed Klay by a massive margin in the 2016 playoffs H2H.

Its not really a disputable thing.

[1987_Lakers]

Did any of LeBron's teammates have this good of a performance during his early Cavs years?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-SPjJ197oKE

[3ba11]

You actually took the time to do this?!

Jesus Christ dude you better be paid. You're objectively wrong but I respect the time I guess?


Mo's spacing taught everyone for the first time what LeStiffArm can do with spacing, so Pippen wouldn't be a good sidekick or win 66 like Mo did.

But Mo still required the 1st option to carry the scoring load, which LeBallDominate can't do against top teams

All of this is historical record - there are DATES associated with everything I just said.. Lebron said himself that "I f*cked up in 09'.. We should've beaten the Magic"... His words..... and mine...

It's easy to forget that the Magic were missing their all-star guard Jameer Nelson, so the Magic had the injury excuse but still won - they were bigger underdogs than the Pacers vs OKC, but still won, for all the reasons MJ mentioned previously (LeBallDominate, LeButterfingers, aka clutch TO's and bad clutch efficiency = 3 lost leads in 4th... and LeDefense on Lee)

[tpols]

Kyrie literally went Wilt. So yea. Funny thing is he did it on Klay. If homeboy brought 5% of the energy he had in the thunder series into the Cavs matchup it would have been a wrap.

Its kind of crazy how Klay went off on a dominant thunder defense and was trash vs Cleveland who for a contender had a poor defensive rank.

He chose the perfect time to suck. :lol

A lot of yall know about that though.

[3ba11]

Kyrie outplayed Klay by a massive margin in the 2016 playoffs H2H.

Its not really a disputable thing.


Kyrie was equal-scoring partner to Lebron for the 2016 Playoffs - 1a/1b status with Lebron, so not too shabby... Kyrie outplayed Curry and young MJ on big stages, while Klay was a much lower producer than Hornacek

[tpols]

Kyrie was equal-scoring partner to Lebron for the 2016 Playoffs - 1a/1b status with Lebron, so not too shabby... Kyrie outplayed Curry and young MJ on big stages, while Klay was a much lower producer than Hornacek

A lot of Lebron stans dont realize this.

Imagine if John Stockton outplayed and outscored Michael Jordan AND Scottie Pippen H2H in the NBA Finals at the same time.

Thats what Kyrie did to both UMVP Curry and Klay.

Thats ****ing insane.

[warriorfan]

It's not historically overrated. Nobody is saying he was a generational defender, but he was very very close to being a deserving all NBA caliber defender for his years prior to injury.

You have a long history of down playing Klay though, which is very weird. It's like a Spurs fan shiting on Manu. Just weird weird shit to do as a fan for the Spurs/Warriors.

Agenda driven shit.

Anyways let's dig into the Mo thing and to a lesser extent big Z because those were his other 2 main guys. I want to say a look at how they did in the playoffs series they lost because ultimately that's what Lebron is given flake for - losing against Orlando and Boston.

Mo and Big Z accounted for 28.5 ppg between them on under 50TS which is very poor considering the team was on a 54TS

Add in the fact neither Big Z or Mo are known defenders of giving a lot of "intangible plays" like a Draymond would it's very easy for me to say this is shit help.


The following year when they lost against Boston:

It's now Mo and Jamieson. They combined for 25 on a hair over 50TS while the team shot 54.7TS

This is also clearly shit.

Thanks for this little exercise. It solidified that Lebron in fact had miserable help from his #2 and #3 options when they lost in those years.

Show me stats about klay’s defense

If you wanna hate on Mo and Jameson….2015 Finals Klay scored 16 ppg on .509 TS, this is while he was getting wide open looks as Curry was double teamed the majority of the time.


So take your “long history of downplaying klay” and shove it up your ass homie. I have a long history of telling it how it is.

Take your casual narratives and get up out of here.

[Axe]

1-9

[warriorfan]

Mo's spacing taught everyone for the first time what LeStiffArm can do with spacing, so Pippen wouldn't be a good sidekick or win 66 like Mo did.

But Mo still required the 1st option to carry the scoring load, which LeBallDominate can't do against top teams

All of this is historical record - there are DATES associated with everything I just said.. Lebron said himself that "I f*cked up in 09'.. We should've beaten the Magic"... His words..... and mine...

It's easy to forget that the Magic were missing their all-star guard Jameer Nelson, so the Magic had the injury excuse but still won - they were bigger underdogs than the Pacers vs OKC, but still won, for all the reasons MJ mentioned previously (LeBallDominate, LeButterfingers, aka clutch TO's and bad clutch efficiency = 3 lost leads in 4th... and LeDefense on Lee)

Mo could space plus create his own shot off the dribble…He was a legit baller. Its sad when lebron stans project and think everyone is being disingenuous and trolling like they are. Total disrespect to mo.

[ShawkFactory]

Mo could space plus create his own shot off the dribble…He was a legit baller. Its sad when lebron stans project and think everyone is being disingenuous and trolling like they are. Total disrespect to mo.

:oldlol:

Okay.

[1987_Lakers]

Show me stats about klay’s defense

If you wanna hate on Mo and Jameson….2015 Finals Klay scored 16 ppg on .509 TS, this is while he was getting wide open looks as Curry was double teamed the majority of the time.


So take your “long history of downplaying klay” and shove it up your ass homie. I have a long history of telling it how it is.

Take your casual narratives and get up out of here.

You said Bosh was better than Kobe.

[SouBeachTalents]

This is how I know you are a troll. The game is very easily watchable for anyone to see the facts.

You choose to ignore them. I would say you're better than this but you're really not. This is par for the course for trollpols.

For anyone wondering:

Kyrie scores 11 points on Klay as the primary defender 28 vs other defenders. Two pts came off free throws.

This after the other thread where you +1 me saying Kobe wasn't given all of Reggies and some other players points when they were matched up. I don't care to find the response but you know which one it was which is all that matters.
tpols didn't even try to refute the factual occurrence of this game :lol Slithered right back to 3ball like trolling.

I also love how Kyrie is Wilt for scoring 41, while Klay drops 37 in the same game in question and that's just never even brought up lol

[warriorfan]

tpols didn't even try to refute the factual occurrence of this game :lol Slithered right back to 3ball like trolling.

I also love how Kyrie is Wilt for scoring 41, while Klay drops 37 in the same game in question and that's just never even brought up lol

I love how Klay Thompson scores under 16 points per game on allen iverson type of inefficiency (actually way worse if you factor in league average), and you guys avoid it like the plague lol

[Tavr]

I love how Klay Thompson scores under 16 points per game on allen iverson type of inefficiency (actually way worse if you factor in league average), and you guys avoid it like the plague lol

Don't know about the poster you quoted, but LeBron fans will ignore everything that doesn't fit their narrative. And then expect you to agree with their ass backward logic. :oldlol:

I call them the casuals of basketball.

[sdot_thadon]

Hey Op, why those specific numbers instead of your usual go to like ppg? Strange change up even for a weirdo like you.

Klay............22.1 ppg -allstar, all nba
Mo.............17.8 ppg allstar injury replacement choice (guess the "winning spotlight" didn't quite work for him)

What about the oh so important post season though?

Klay.....24.3 ppg on 44/42/85, 19.5 PER, .143 WS/48, 4.2 BPM, 1.3 VORP
Mo......16.3 ppg on 41/37/77, 13.0 PER, .103 WS/48, 0.4 BPM, 0.3 VORP

Perhaps you meant some other type of outproducing not available to sane people. I see ya boi.

[warriorfan]

Hey Op, why those specific numbers instead of your usual go to like ppg? Strange change up even for a weirdo like you.

Klay............22.1 ppg -allstar, all nba
Mo.............17.8 ppg allstar injury replacement choice (guess the "winning spotlight" didn't quite work for him)

What about the oh so important post season though?

Klay.....24.3 ppg on 44/42/85, 19.5 PER, .143 WS/48, 4.2 BPM, 1.3 VORP
Mo......16.3 ppg on 41/37/77, 13.0 PER, .103 WS/48, 0.4 BPM, 0.3 VORP

Perhaps you meant some other type of outproducing not available to sane people. I see ya boi.

They basically played in different eras and Klay got to play on one of the best offenses of all time. He also can’t dribble or pass which Mo could do.


Don't know about the poster you quoted, but LeBron fans will ignore everything that doesn't fit their narrative. And then expect you to agree with their ass backward logic. :oldlol:

I call them the casuals of basketball.

Ya it’s wild. No consistency with their criteria.

[sdot_thadon]

They basically played in different eras and Klay got to play on one of the best offenses of all time. He also can’t dribble or pass which Mo could do.



Ya it’s wild. No consistency with their criteria.

And Mo couldn't play defense but Klay could. Mo was a good player that was never able to take the next step in his progression. Klay was able to do so. It is what it is.

[warriorfan]

Still waiting on those Klay Thompson defensive metrics.

[tpols]

Klay is better than Mo, but not by a lot. Dude was a 16 ppg Finals player in an easy era vs average or below average defenses. Thats weak. I still cant believe Curry carried that team to 4 rings and record breaking win totals. Klay isn't AD or Wade or Luka. He wasnt even able to match Kyrie H2H.

[StrongLurk]

Klay is better than Mo, but not by a lot. Dude was a 16 ppg Finals player in an easy era vs average or below average defenses. Thats weak. I still cant believe Curry carried that team to 4 rings and record breaking win totals. Klay isn't AD or Wade or Luka. He wasnt even able to match Kyrie H2H.

Curry barely beat an injury decimated 2015 Cavs and then KD cucked Curry in 17/18. Not trolling at all, that factually happened. KD literally would've got a 3rd FMVP in a row if his Achilles didn't give out.

[warriorfan]

Klay is better than Mo, but not by a lot. Dude was a 16 ppg Finals player in an easy era vs average or below average defenses. Thats weak. I still cant believe Curry carried that team to 4 rings and record breaking win totals. Klay isn't AD or Wade or Luka. He wasnt even able to match Kyrie H2H.

This.

What’s crazy is lebron stans will talk about Klay defense and not acknowledge he was a black hole who couldn’t dribble yet they don’t acknowledge mo had handle and a true rounded offensive game plus had dope shooting. They just auto throw him under the bus for his defense. It’s no way objective at all and it makes them a joke. Mo was legit one of the best guards on the Eastern Conference.

[1987_Lakers]

This.

What’s crazy is lebron stans will talk about Klay defense and not acknowledge he was a black hole who couldn’t dribble yet they don’t acknowledge mo had handle and a true rounded offensive game plus had dope shooting. They just auto throw him under the bus for his defense. It’s no way objective at all and it makes them a joke. Mo was legit one of the best guards on the Eastern Conference.

You're telling me Curry was outplayed by a spot up shooter in the 2019 Finals?

[sdot_thadon]

This.

What’s crazy is lebron stans will talk about Klay defense and not acknowledge he was a black hole who couldn’t dribble yet they don’t acknowledge mo had handle and a true rounded offensive game plus had dope shooting. They just auto throw him under the bus for his defense. It’s no way objective at all and it makes them a joke. Mo was legit one of the best guards on the Eastern Conference.

Notice you specified Mo was one of the best guards in the eastern conference, meanwhile Klay was one of the best guards in the league (all star/all nba) nobody's underrating Mo, he was a elite shooter that could get hot and give you 40 once in a blue moon, Klay was an elite shooter who could get hot and give you 40 more often and give you 60 once in a blue moon. Klay was given the best perimeter player to defend and Mo was a target on defense. Klay had some great playoff games. Did Mo? And Klay actually spent some of his best years as a 3rd option due to the whole Kd run. Its a low-key disrespectful comparison imo. Il tell you what if LeBron had Klay for his 1st cavs run id bet the house on his 1st chip coming way sooner. We were hoping he could get a guy like granger ffs. And **** Klay. :D

[warriorfan]

Ya being elite in the west isn’t the same as being elite in the historically weak east, there nullifying lebron’s perennial ecf champion achievement

[sdot_thadon]

Ya being elite in the west isn’t the same as being elite in the historically weak east, there nullifying lebron’s perennial ecf champion achievement

No slick talk here the difference is being one of the best in only the east vs.being one of the best in the whole league. Don't play stupid.

[warriorfan]

No slick talk here the difference is being one of the best in only the east vs.being one of the best in the whole league. Don't play stupid.
ya which discredits bron’s finals appearances because the east was so wack

you played yourself homie

[sdot_thadon]

ya which discredits bron’s finals appearances because the east was so wack

you played yourself homie

Boi you ain't too bright that doesn't have shit to do with the Lebron bs youre trying to shoe horn in there. Mo is only one of the best guards in the east because that was his level in the league as a whole. Klay was all nba for the same reason. You can only play stupid so many times until youre not playing anymore.

[warriorfan]

Boi you ain't too bright that doesn't have shit to do with the Lebron bs youre trying to shoe horn in there. Mo is only one of the best guards in the east because that was his level in the league as a whole. Klay was all nba for the same reason. You can only play stupid so many times until youre not playing anymore.

You tried to shade mo for being one of the best in the east because the east sucked, and your boy bron caught a stray.

[marLeY baLL]

MARLEY THUG

https://scontent-atl3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/461487685_10221855277286114_2228789687530415541_n. jpg?_nc_cat=110&ccb=1-7&_nc_sid=a5f93a&_nc_ohc=sDPC7Z9CcZ8Q7kNvwGdaQQf&_nc_oc=AdnjhiYmf1FyrNJyM8XeRYTOBebPYejSSVs0cS63GJU V_lTXwHBk6vF3C_x8at3PW0soinMhy4No1eFG3Atzvf_w&_nc_zt=23&_nc_ht=scontent-atl3-1.xx&_nc_gid=Ydzo4g6dsSYzW1vPlcsitQ&oh=00_AfR732l1igBfQazVewSgZduZ2VIOPbADPQ_Rk2GmxqcC Vw&oe=688E32B2

[sdot_thadon]

You tried to shade mo for being one of the best in the east because the east sucked, and your boy bron caught a stray.

Your words not mine. I never said he was only one of the best guards because the east was weak. Again my exact words were that was his level relative to the league, Klays level was clearly higher. I was actually happy when the cavs picked up Mo and my expectations tempered after seeing him throughout the season and what limitations he had. But yeah keep trying to force them square peg in the round hole idiot. Theres a reason most of the forum handle you how they do.

[warriorfan]

Your words not mine. I never said he was only one of the best guards because the east was weak. Again my exact words were that was his level relative to the league, Klays level was clearly higher. I was actually happy when the cavs picked up Mo and my expectations tempered after seeing him throughout the season and what limitations he had. But yeah keep trying to force them square peg in the round hole idiot. Theres a reason most of the forum handle you how they do.

Where is the Klay Thompson defensive data?

:lol

[Hey Yo]

Where is the Klay Thompson defensive data?

:lol

Where's the Mo Williams after 2010 data?

[warriorfan]

bron stans - “klay was an elite defender”

sources: trust me bro

[1987_Lakers]

Where's the Mo Williams after 2010 data?

LeBron made him. 43% 3 point shooter playing with LeBron. 36% career 3 point shooter without LeBron.

LeBron by himself was able to add an extra 2% on Mo's career 3pt%.

The LeBron effect.

[sdot_thadon]

Where is the Klay Thompson defensive data?

:lol

If you're a warriors fan do you really need numbers on a guy thats made all defense and been just outside of making the team several other times? You need data on the guy that routinely had to guard Curry's matchup cause Steph couldn't hold a purse? Do you really need numbers to prove a guy like Klay is better defensively than a guy like Mo who teams targeted similarly to how teams did Steph? Something wrong with you.

[Hey Yo]

LeBron made him. 43% 3 point shooter playing with LeBron. 36% career 3 point shooter without LeBron.

LeBron by himself was able to add an extra 2% on Mo's career 3pt%.

The LeBron effect.

And that's why Bird said he'd never trade for LeBron's teammates during his first stint in Cleveland.

[warriorfan]

If you're a warriors fan do you really need numbers on a guy thats made all defense and been just outside of making the team several other times? You need data on the guy that routinely had to guard Curry's matchup cause Steph couldn't hold a purse? Do you really need numbers to prove a guy like Klay is better defensively than a guy like Mo who teams targeted similarly to how teams did Steph? Something wrong with you.

Lebron stans have already said defensive teams don’t matter during your discredit kobe campaign

Show me the metrics of klay being an elite defender

[sdot_thadon]

Lebron stans have already said defensive teams don’t matter during your discredit kobe campaign

Show me the metrics of klay being an elite defender

Ive never said that. However I agree that Kobe probably got some reputation awards past his actual time of earning them. All the metrics you need as a "warriors fan" is who was klay always guarding? They were literally hiding Steph on defense using Klay.

[warriorfan]

Ive never said that. However I agree that Kobe probably got some reputation awards past his actual time of earning them. All the metrics you need as a "warriors fan" is who was klay always guarding? They were literally hiding Steph on defense using Klay.

Someone rivaling Lebron gets all defensive teams: “actually all defense doesn’t mean anything”

Someone who is a teammate of Lebron’s rival: “hey he made an all defense team….”

:roll:

Still waiting on those metrics

[3ba11]

Ive never said that. However I agree that Kobe probably got some reputation awards past his actual time of earning them. All the metrics you need as a "warriors fan" is who was klay always guarding? They were literally hiding Steph on defense using Klay.


MJ and Curry could carry the "star" category of scoring, so they required less stars and allowed GM's to get good defensive help and role players.. Essentially, their ability to carry the scoring load against top teams allows elite roster construction.. Otoh, Lebron's inability to successfully carry the scoring load against top teams requires more star help, thereby preventing elite roster construction, while his skillset of turning teammates into spot-up shooter further hampers roster construction.. Ultimately, his inability to carry the scoring load with sufficient brand of ball caused the massive upset loss to the 09' Magic.. (too ball-dominant at high scoring levels).

[3ba11]

The consensus was that the 15' Warriors weren't a good roster, such as +2800 preseason odds and a lower producer than Mo or Hornacek at 2nd option.. So the 67 and 73 wins means that Curry did a goat thing, not Lebron.. Lebron doesn't deserve props for beating a 1-man team with the only "big 3" super-team in the league and the preseason favorite.. Ultimately, Curry has always needed less talent because his skillset produces better chemistry and ball movement

[SouBeachTalents]

The consensus was that the 15' Warriors weren't a good roster, such as +2800 preseason odds and a lower producer than Mo or Hornacek at 2nd option.. So the 67 and 73 wins means that Curry did a goat thing, not Lebron.. Lebron doesn't deserve props for beating a 1-man team with the only "big 3" super-team in the league and the preseason favorite.. Ultimately, Curry has always needed less talent because his skillset produces better chemistry and ball movement
Curry needed to recruit a top 3 player to his 73 win team to win half his titles, in addition to a comical number of injuries for his first one.

I give him props for winning 67 games in 2015, but those first 3 titles are honestly not impressive, and the KD ones mean nothing. Someone like Mark Price is likely racking up titles on those KD Warrior teams.

[warriorfan]

Curry needed to recruit a top 3 player to his 73 win team to win half his titles, in addition to a comical number of injuries for his first one.

I give him props for winning 67 games in 2015, but those first 3 titles are honestly not impressive, and the KD ones mean nothing. Someone like Mark Price is likely racking up titles on those KD Warrior teams.

2011: negative ring
2012: lockout season vs 22 and 23 year old chokers, asterisk ring
2013: bron brick, bosh rebound, ray allen bang, asterisk ring
2016: adam silver collusion, asterisk ring
2020: Bubble plus anthony davis, asterisk ring


Bron sitting at -1 chips

[ShawkFactory]

We're STILL doing this?!

:facepalm

[3ba11]

2011: negative ring
2012: lockout season vs 22 and 23 year old chokers, asterisk ring
2013: bron brick, bosh rebound, ray allen bang, asterisk ring
2016: adam silver collusion, asterisk ring
2020: Bubble plus anthony davis, asterisk ring


Bron sitting at -1 chips


I honestly can't think of a single ring that I respect because he beat babies, then bailout, plus the 2nd option ring in 2020... And it's impossible to lose when your 2nd option is outplaying the league MVP, like Mathurin outplaying SGA or something - the Warriors were a +2800 roster and the 2nd option produced less than Mo or Hornacek, so Curry carried this low-producing cast to a shocking 67 wins, and then 73... It simply isn't impressive to beat a 1-man team with the only big 3 super-team and preseason fav

[1987_Lakers]

Imagine if LeBron teamed up with peak KD. You already have Bron haters acting like LeBron won titles with prime Wade, which wasn’t the case. KD would be a GOAT candidate in their minds.

[warriorfan]

I honestly can't think of a single ring that I respect because he beat babies, then bailout, plus the 2nd option ring in 2020... And it's impossible to lose when your 2nd option is outplaying the league MVP, like Mathurin outplaying SGA or something - the Warriors were a +2800 roster and the 2nd option produced less than Mo or Hornacek, so Curry carried this low-producing cast to a shocking 67 wins, and then 73... It simply isn't impressive to beat a 1-man team with the only big 3 super-team and preseason fav

Bron stans hate this. But it’s the hard truth.

[sdot_thadon]

I honestly can't think of a single ring that I respect because he beat babies, then bailout, plus the 2nd option ring in 2020... And it's impossible to lose when your 2nd option is outplaying the league MVP, like Mathurin outplaying SGA or something - the Warriors were a +2800 roster and the 2nd option produced less than Mo or Hornacek, so Curry carried this low-producing cast to a shocking 67 wins, and then 73... It simply isn't impressive to beat a 1-man team with the only big 3 super-team and preseason fav

Its crazy how much we talk about Kyrie performing great next to Lebron......but never question why he hasn't touched that level since.......

[warriorfan]

Its crazy how much we talk about Kyrie performing great next to Lebron......but never question why he hasn't touched that level since.......

Bro if you think bron was the reason for Kyrie doing anything you obviously didn’t watch the games or have a literal retard level iq. Bron and Kyrie did the my turn your turn style of ball. Bron wasnt gifting Kyrie tons of easy buckets. Kyrie has probably the goat handles and is elite and spectacular at finishing at the rim. Get out of here with this low iq nonsense. It’s embarrassing.

[SouBeachTalents]

Bro if you think bron was the reason for Kyrie doing anything you obviously didn’t watch the games or have a literal retard level iq. Bron and Kyrie did the my turn your turn style of ball. Bron wasnt gifting Kyrie tons of easy buckets. Kyrie has probably the goat handles and is elite and spectacular at finishing at the rim. Get out of here with this low iq nonsense. It’s embarrassing.
Kyrie hasn't come close to matching that performance in the playoffs since leaving Cleveland.

Since 2018 he goes from

26/5/6 on 60%TS in the regular season to
22/4/5 on 55% in the playoffs

That's a Harden/Embiid level drop. And a lot of that damage was done in first round series. Look how he's done against the truly elite teams of the league

2019 Bucks: 20/4/6 on 45%TS
2022 Celtics: 21/5/5 on 59%TS
2024 Thunder: 16/2/6 on 53%TS
2024 Celtics: 20/3/5 on 48%TS

He had one big series against the Wolves in 2024, outside of that, it's an inarguable pattern of having a huge drop off in performance in the playoffs without LeBron, esp against the elite teams of the league where he's frankly dogshit.

[warriorfan]

Kyrie hasn't come close to matching that performance in the playoffs since leaving Cleveland.

Since 2018 he goes from

26/5/6 on 60%TS in the regular season to
22/4/5 on 55% in the playoffs

That's a Harden/Embiid level drop. And a lot of that damage was done in first round series. Look how he's done against the truly elite teams of the league

2019 Bucks: 20/4/6 on 45%TS
2022 Celtics: 21/5/5 on 59%TS
2024 Thunder: 16/2/6 on 53%TS
2024 Celtics: 20/3/5 on 48%TS

He had one big series against the Wolves in 2024, outside of that, it's an inarguable pattern of having a huge drop off in performance in the playoffs without LeBron, esp against the elite teams of the league where he's frankly dogshit.

Did you watch those games?

[1987_Lakers]

Kyrie hasn't come close to matching that performance in the playoffs since leaving Cleveland.

Since 2018 he goes from

26/5/6 on 60%TS in the regular season to
22/4/5 on 55% in the playoffs

That's a Harden/Embiid level drop. And a lot of that damage was done in first round series. Look how he's done against the truly elite teams of the league

2019 Bucks: 20/4/6 on 45%TS
2022 Celtics: 21/5/5 on 59%TS
2024 Thunder: 16/2/6 on 53%TS
2024 Celtics: 20/3/5 on 48%TS

He had one big series against the Wolves in 2024, outside of that, it's an inarguable pattern of having a huge drop off in performance in the playoffs without LeBron, esp against the elite teams of the league where he's frankly dogshit.
Ether.

LeBron makes teammates better, they get worse on other teams.

Pippen, Grant, & Armstrong had career years immediately after MJ retired.

[ShawkFactory]

Bro if you think bron was the reason for Kyrie doing anything you obviously didn’t watch the games or have a literal retard level iq. Bron and Kyrie did the my turn your turn style of ball. Bron wasnt gifting Kyrie tons of easy buckets. Kyrie has probably the goat handles and is elite and spectacular at finishing at the rim. Get out of here with this low iq nonsense. It’s embarrassing.

Ugh fine...

Yes, he certainly helped Kyrie in those years. Think about the best thing that Kyrie did sa a young player(1 on 1 ball) and then all of the other gaps in his game at the time. Playing with Bron who could completely fill in all of those gaps from a defense, leadership, playmaking/pace-control standpoint allowed Kyrie to literally not have to worry about anything else other than what he did best. That is playing almost completely 1 on 1; not too many doubles sent his way when Bron was on the court...

Granted, he's gotten savvier overall and better as a floor general but in 2016 he was absolutely one of those guys that wasn't a positive in any game where his shot was off. Another granted...it often was on, particularly in that series. But he wasn't really all that well-rounded at the time and got better as a player overall in his time playing with Bron.

[warriorfan]

Ugh fine...

Yes, he certainly helped Kyrie in those years. Think about the best thing that Kyrie did sa a young player(1 on 1 ball) and then all of the other gaps in his game at the time. Playing with Bron who could completely fill in all of those gaps from a defense, leadership, playmaking/pace-control standpoint allowed Kyrie to literally not have to worry about anything else other than what he did best. That is playing almost completely 1 on 1; not too many doubles sent his way when Bron was on the court...

Granted, he's gotten savvier overall and better as a floor general but in 2016 he was absolutely one of those guys that wasn't a positive in any game where his shot was off. Another granted...it often was on, particularly in that series. But he wasn't really all that well-rounded at the time and got better as a player overall in his time playing with Bron.

Lot of words not a lot of substance.

They did my turn/your turn basketball.

[ShawkFactory]

Lot of words not a lot of substance.

They did my turn/your turn basketball.

Very few words.

Little insight.

[sdot_thadon]

Bro if you think bron was the reason for Kyrie doing anything you obviously didn’t watch the games or have a literal retard level iq. Bron and Kyrie did the my turn your turn style of ball. Bron wasnt gifting Kyrie tons of easy buckets. Kyrie has probably the goat handles and is elite and spectacular at finishing at the rim. Get out of here with this low iq nonsense. It’s embarrassing.

I shouldn't even pile on you've taken quite the spanking since this quote but alright. Why did his best postseason runs happen alongside Lebron? Both from a scoring and advanced metrics standpoint. Im sure hes gotten better as a player yet he cant do what he did alongside James? Also you jumped the gun saying Lebron got him easy buckets, he allowed Kyrie to do Kyrie without facing the full teeth of the defense. You guys can't make your minds up 1st Lebron ball turns everyone to spot up shooters but now it allows Kyrie to get his own buckets at the same volume he was able to as a no.1 in Boston. You suck at this.

[tpols]

Bro if you think bron was the reason for Kyrie doing anything you obviously didn’t watch the games or have a literal retard level iq. Bron and Kyrie did the my turn your turn style of ball. Bron wasnt gifting Kyrie tons of easy buckets. Kyrie has probably the goat handles and is elite and spectacular at finishing at the rim. Get out of here with this low iq nonsense. It’s embarrassing.

Wasn't Kyrie the 2nd option on a team that won the entire western conference with Luka? While Lebron couldn't even get out of the 1st round with Doncic? Thats interesting.

[sdot_thadon]

Wasn't Kyrie the 2nd option on a team that won the entire western conference with Luka? While Lebron couldn't even get out of the 1st round with Doncic? Thats interesting.

Meanwhile that run with Luka was inferior to the 2016 run with Lebron. He didn't "outplay the Celtics 1st option" like he so famously here did against the warriors. Bostons 1st option only averaged 22 just like Curry in 2016, so why couldn't Kyrie "outplay" him the same if it had nothing to do with Lebron? Literally higher almost all the way across the board alongside Lebron. "Bron ball" somehow weaponized Kyrie to an extent no one had been able to since. Unless you want to tell me Curry sucked is the reason Kyrie was able to be that guy. Something isnt being said here apparently.

[tpols]

Kyrie iced the same team that embarrassed Luka and Lebron last year in the 1st round to win the Western Conference. Youre acting like he couldnt play without LeBron or never did anything else again which means you might have amnesia because you forgot about something that happened only a little over a year ago.

[sdot_thadon]

Kyrie iced the same team that embarrassed Luka and Lebron last year in the 1st round to win the Western Conference. Youre acting like he couldnt play without LeBron or never did anything else again which means you might have amnesia because you forgot about something that happened only a little over a year ago.

Nah im acting Iike he was at his best next to Lebron, won a chip, and hasn't since. Good reason why you didn't directly answer my post. Again why didn't he "outperform " the Celtics 1st option in just the next round?

[sdot_thadon]

Kyrie iced the same team that embarrassed Luka and Lebron last year in the 1st round to win the Western Conference. Youre acting like he couldnt play without LeBron or never did anything else again which means you might have amnesia because you forgot about something that happened only a little over a year ago.

Nah im acting Iike he was at his best next to Lebron, won a chip, and hasn't since. Good reason why you didn't directly answer my post. Again why didn't he "outperform " the Celtics 1st option in just the next round?

[3ba11]

Nah im acting Iike he was at his best next to Lebron, won a chip, and hasn't since.





Kyrie only played 2 years with Luka and 2 years with KD, so he hasn't gotten to team-hop around like Lebron and get 15 years with Wade, Bosh, Kyrie, Love, AD and Luka.

So cut the crap - LeCoddle - Lebron has been coddled with the best help that anyone ever had - no one played with more #1 draft picks or franchise players that had their own team

And speaking of guys making other guys better - why don't you compare the RS and PO numbers of Lebron for 08' and 09', aka mo's spacing EXPLODED lebron's game.

[3ba11]

.
.
mo's spacing UNLOCKED lebron's game:




Regular season

08' Lebron....... 29.1 PER.... 10.9 BPM.... 0.242 WS/48..... 9.8 VORP
09' Lebron....... 31.7 PER.... 13.2 BPM.... 0.318 WS/48... 11.8 VORP


Playoffs

08' Lebron....... 24.3 PER... 10.1 BPM.... 0.187 WS/48.... 1.7 VORP
09' Lebron....... 37.4 PER... 17.2 BPM.... 0.399 WS/48.... 2.9 VORP



^^^^ due to that, every coach thereafter knew that Lebron NEEDS SPACING.. Otoh, guys with great jumpshooting from mid-range or three-point range can shoot over packed paints and don't need spacing, such as SGA, MJ, or Kobe.. i.e. MJ and Kobe won with bad 3-point shooting teams, while SGA's team shot horribly in the playoffs and Finals (30%).

Ultimately, lebron was LOCKED UP in the 07' and 08' Playoffs, but Mo's spacing saved Lebron from making it 3 years in a row... The success of Mo's all-star spacing shows that a historic bricklayer like Pippen could never unlock LeDrive's game and win 66 games.. Pippen literally told Rachel Nichols that he couldn't space the floor here (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XmBbmIE_Kxc&t=114s)

[SouBeachTalents]

.
.
mo's spacing UNLOCKED lebron's game:




Regular season

08' Lebron....... 29.1 PER.... 10.9 BPM.... 0.242 WS/48..... 9.8 VORP
09' Lebron....... 31.7 PER.... 13.2 BPM.... 0.318 WS/48... 11.8 VORP


Playoffs

08' Lebron....... 24.3 PER... 10.1 BPM.... 0.187 WS/48.... 1.7 VORP
09' Lebron....... 37.4 PER... 17.2 BPM.... 0.399 WS/48.... 2.9 VORP



^^^^ due to that, every coach thereafter knew that Lebron NEEDS SPACING.. Otoh, guys with great jumpshooting from mid-range or three-point range can shoot over packed paints and don't need spacing, such as SGA, MJ, or Kobe.. i.e. MJ and Kobe won with bad 3-point shooting teams, while SGA's team shot horribly in the playoffs and Finals (30%).

Ultimately, lebron was LOCKED UP in the 07' and 08' Playoffs, but Mo's spacing saved Lebron from making it 3 years in a row... The success of Mo's all-star spacing shows that a historic bricklayer like Pippen could never unlock LeDrive's game and win 66 games.. Pippen literally told Rachel Nichols that he couldn't space the floor here (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XmBbmIE_Kxc&t=114s)
ALL due to Mo

[3ba11]

ALL due to Mo


LeDrive's advanced stats were stagnant from 06' to 08', so Mo's all-star spacing was the key for LeDrive - it's intuitive.

Otoh, Mo's advanced stats were already growing by leaps and bounds prior to joining Lebron, so his continued improvement in 09' can be attributed to a pattern of existing growth.

After Lebron's stint with Mo, every coach and GM knew how to get those max stats out of Lebron, aka give his stiff-arm skillset the spacing it needs.

[SouBeachTalents]

LeDrive's advanced stats were stagnant from 06' to 08', so Mo's all-star spacing was the key for LeDrive - it's intuitive.

Otoh, Mo's advanced stats were already growing by leaps and bounds prior to joining Lebron, so his continued improvement in 09' can be attributed to a pattern of existing growth.

After Lebron's stint with Mo, every coach and GM knew how to get those max stats out of Lebron, aka give his stiff-arm skillset the spacing it needs.
Agreed, Mo basically elevated LeBron for mere all-star to the MVP caliber player he'd become. He did the same thing for every team he played for. Put Mo on the '86 Bulls and they would've beaten the Celtics.

[3ba11]

Agreed, Mo basically elevated LeBron for mere all-star to the MVP caliber player he'd become. He did the same thing for every team he played for. Put Mo on the '86 Bulls and they would've beaten the Celtics.


See that's the thing - Mo only got a couple seasons with Lebron and barely played with other superstars, while Lebron played with more stars than anyone in history..

Lebron had 15 seasons with franchise players that had their own team, such as Wade, Bosh, Kyrie, Love, AD and Luka - that's 6 franchise players that had their own team, and Lebron got 15 years with them - this is the most help ever.. Otoh, Mo got almost no time with other superstars... Btw, Lebron only had 1 sixty-win season in 15 tries with these franchise players, aka LeFraud.

[ShawkFactory]

Agreed, Mo basically elevated LeBron for mere all-star to the MVP caliber player he'd become. He did the same thing for every team he played for. Put Mo on the '86 Bulls and they would've beaten the Celtics.

I mean...look at it this way. If Mo fvcking Williams was all it took then it doesn't quite make the point he thinks :lol

Like..imagine Klay Thompson level spacing :applause:

[3ba11]

Like..imagine Klay Thompson level spacing :applause:






Klay doesn't work because he doesn't provide the playmaking help that Lebron needs... Lebron loves to get high-assist players that can handle a reduction in assists like Mo, Wade, and many more, so Klay's skills don't qualify to play next to Lebron - he's a tad better than Korver.

And tons of other guys like Pippen wouldn't fit with Lebron because he's a historic bricklayer - Lebron needs a great spacer like Mo or Ray Allen to win 60 and MVP... mo's spacing was CLEARLY a better sidekick for lebron than pippen's bricklaying would be, and zero clutch.

[ShawkFactory]

Klay doesn't work because he doesn't provide the playmaking help that Lebron needs... Lebron loves to get high-assist players that can handle a reduction in assists like Mo, Wade, and many more, so Klay's skills don't qualify to play next to Lebron - he's a tad better than Korver.

And tons of other guys like Pippen wouldn't fit with Lebron because he's a historic bricklayer - Lebron needs a great spacer like Mo or Ray Allen to win 60 and MVP.

Oh I see so it's SPECIFICALLY Mo Williams. Only Mo.

Holy shit you've always been a huge correlation = causation guy but this shit is next level :lol

[sdot_thadon]

.
.
mo's spacing UNLOCKED lebron's game:




Regular season

08' Lebron....... 29.1 PER.... 10.9 BPM.... 0.242 WS/48..... 9.8 VORP
09' Lebron....... 31.7 PER.... 13.2 BPM.... 0.318 WS/48... 11.8 VORP


Playoffs

08' Lebron....... 24.3 PER... 10.1 BPM.... 0.187 WS/48.... 1.7 VORP
09' Lebron....... 37.4 PER... 17.2 BPM.... 0.399 WS/48.... 2.9 VORP



^^^^ due to that, every coach thereafter knew that Lebron NEEDS SPACING.. Otoh, guys with great jumpshooting from mid-range or three-point range can shoot over packed paints and don't need spacing, such as SGA, MJ, or Kobe.. i.e. MJ and Kobe won with bad 3-point shooting teams, while SGA's team shot horribly in the playoffs and Finals (30%).

Ultimately, lebron was LOCKED UP in the 07' and 08' Playoffs, but Mo's spacing saved Lebron from making it 3 years in a row... The success of Mo's all-star spacing shows that a historic bricklayer like Pippen could never unlock LeDrive's game and win 66 games.. Pippen literally told Rachel Nichols that he couldn't space the floor here (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XmBbmIE_Kxc&t=114s)

What a dummy, 08 Cavs shot 35% from 3, 09 Cavs shot 39%. He had better shooting around him in 09. Not just Mo. And in the 0layoffs in 09 that % dipped. Btw love how you ran away from my question about Kyrie. Why was his best next to Lebron and why couldn't he reach that level anywhere else?

[3ba11]

What a dummy, 08 Cavs shot 35% from 3, 09 Cavs shot 39%. He had better shooting around him in 09. Not just Mo. And in the 0layoffs in 09 that % dipped. Btw love how you ran away from my question about Kyrie. Why was his best next to Lebron and why couldn't he reach that level anywhere else?


Mo was growing each year before joining Lebron, and then his career was cut short by injures after Lebron left - that's obvious and common knowledge.

But Lebron still caught the best version of Mo and became the league favorite with him, but he lost as an OKC-level favorite to the Magic... Even Lebron himself says that he "f*cked up" and should've won that series.. The Cavs had the #3 defense and Mo provided 18 on 38%, but Lebron couldn't win with this, even though Jordan always did.... Lebron has always needed more scoring help because he can't carry the scoring load vs top teams (too ball-dominant at high scoring levels).

And again, the answer to your question of "why didn't Player X win without Lebron" is that they sacrificed their prime for Lebron, and never played with other superstars after Lebron left, while Lebron has 15 seasons with other superstars like Wade, Bosh, Kyrie, Love, AD, Luka, and more (Ingram, Jamison, Zydrunas, Mo).. This is the most help than anyone ever had.

[warriorfan]

I mean...look at it this way. If Mo fvcking Williams was all it took then it doesn't quite make the point he thinks :lol

Like..imagine Klay Thompson level spacing :applause:

Bron would do his “need more playmakers” complaint that we heard when he joined the Lakers

[ShawkFactory]

Bron would do his “need more playmakers” complaint that we heard when he joined the Lakers

There wasn't a Klay Thompson on the '18 Cavs.

[SouBeachTalents]

Oh I see so it's SPECIFICALLY Mo Williams. Only Mo.

Holy shit you've always been a huge correlation = causation guy but this shit is next level :lol
Mo Williams was the true engine of those Cavs teams, hence the 7-27 record they had in games he played in 2011.

[sdot_thadon]

Mo Williams was the true engine of those Cavs teams, hence the 7-27 record they had in games he played in 2011.
No no you got it all wrong his prime had been used up by the following season. Everyone's prime ends the second they arent Lebrons teammate any longer.

[sdot_thadon]

Mo was growing each year before joining Lebron, and then his career was cut short by injures after Lebron left - that's obvious and common knowledge.

But Lebron still caught the best version of Mo and became the league favorite with him, but he lost as an OKC-level favorite to the Magic... Even Lebron himself says that he "f*cked up" and should've won that series.. The Cavs had the #3 defense and Mo provided 18 on 38%, but Lebron couldn't win with this, even though Jordan always did.... Lebron has always needed more scoring help because he can't carry the scoring load vs top teams (too ball-dominant at high scoring levels).

And again, the answer to your question of "why didn't Player X win without Lebron" is that they sacrificed their prime for Lebron, and never played with other superstars after Lebron left, while Lebron has 15 seasons with other superstars like Wade, Bosh, Kyrie, Love, AD, Luka, and more (Ingram, Jamison, Zydrunas, Mo).. This is the most help than anyone ever had.

Its a miracle the only player in history to get teammates primes is Lebron right. Not a bald guy with a perennial all nba all defensive sidekick in the 90s right? An all defensive 3rd option with goggles maybe? Then a dye jobbed all defensive team rebounding champ who was was dpoy?

[warriorfan]

Its a miracle the only player in history to get teammates primes is Lebron right. Not a bald guy with a perennial all nba all defensive sidekick in the 90s right? An all defensive 3rd option with goggles maybe? Then a dye jobbed all defensive team rebounding champ who was was dpoy?

Sorry, Lebron stans already debunked the all defensive team as being a dumb voting process and not legit while you spent years trying to discredit kobe

You can’t claim all defense teams mean nothing for years then turn around and keep trying to use it as a talking point for supporting cast members of a player who you are threatened by


Sorry, doesn’t work that way. Can’t have your cake and eat it too.

[sdot_thadon]

Sorry, Lebron stans already debunked the all defensive team as being a dumb voting process and not legit while you spent years trying to discredit kobe

You can’t claim all defense teams mean nothing for years then turn around and keep trying to use it as a talking point for supporting cast members of a player who you are threatened by


Sorry, doesn’t work that way. Can’t have your cake and eat it too.

You've never seen me type the words all defense means nothing. I dont ever try to exclude a player's accomplishments. Did Kobe not live up to the standard for those last few 1st teams on defense? Probably not, but it is what it is. Other people with the desire have already dove into the numbers and come to those conclusions.

[warriorfan]

You've never seen me type the words all defense means nothing. I dont ever try to exclude a player's accomplishments. Did Kobe not live up to the standard for those last few 1st teams on defense? Probably not, but it is what it is. Other people with the desire have already dove into the numbers and come to those conclusions.
Kobe > Bron

there’s two sides of the ball and bron has coasted his entire life on that side. Kobe > Bron as a complete basketball player, Deal with it homie.

Either fade bron for not making defense teams or fade kobe for making making teams but when he does it it’s “fraudulent”(while simultaneously not fading teammates on dudes who you think threaten bron’s legacy)

You are a biased clown who never played high level basketball in your life.

Not trying to be a dick but make like a tree and get the f. uck out of here

[sdot_thadon]

Kobe > Bron

there’s two sides of the ball and bron has coasted his entire life on that side. Kobe > Bron as a complete basketball player, Deal with it homie.

Either fade bron for not making defense teams or fade kobe for making making teams but when he does it it’s “fraudulent”(while simultaneously not fading teammates on dudes who you think threaten bron’s legacy)

You are a biased clown who never played high level basketball in your life.

Not trying to be a dick but make like a tree and get the f. uck out of here

There it is. You finally said what you wanted to say the whole time. Im proud of you. Unfortunately not many people agree, sadly I dont agree with you either. And like I said Ive never tried to remove any accomplishment from a debate or remove any player. Kobe was great, I was a fan day one. Lebron can do so many things Kobe simply couldn't do. Even with all those defensive team selections Lebron's defense at his peak was a level above Kobe's. Kobe was a great man defender that coasted in his later years even though he was still getting all defense nods. When he turned it on he could still defend at a high level just like what we've seen from LeBron towards the end of his prime on. I dont get why Kobe stans gotta be so angry and defensive over Lebron its weird af. Yall mu****as play better d than he ever did.

And im the biased one when all i really debate here is whether or not we judge everyone with the same scale. You clearly are emotionally upset over a basketball player. That must be that Mamba Mentality kicking in. I bet you were jutting your chin out as you typed that, how cute:kobe:

[3ba11]

There it is. You finally said what you wanted to say the whole time. Im proud of you. Unfortunately not many people agree,





except all the players






Lebron can do so many things Kobe simply couldn't do.





and vice versa.

kobe had great mid-range, so he could shoot over packed paints and didn't need spacing like LeDrive does.

Kobe could also score off screens and facilitate great ball movement..

this matters because it means he maintained brand of ball at high scoring levels and therefore carry the scoring load against top teams... the ability to carry the "star" category of scoring allows GM's to get defensive help.. So lebron's inability to carry the scoring load prevented elite roster construction, while his skillset of turning everyone into spot-up shooter further hampered roster construction and player development

Successfully carrying the scoring load on the championship level = defeating max defensive attention... kobe did this and lebron didn't.

[Axe]

2016 klay was a very useful help to his own team bt.


You are a biased clown who never played high level basketball in your life.
https://i.ibb.co/XZ5qVsYf/Screenshot-20250703-235925.jpg (https://i.ibb.co/JmpGnKz/IMG-20230528-095117.jpg)

[3ba11]

.
.
09' MO......... 2.3 BPM... 0.165 WS.48... 3.1 VORP... 17.2 PER
16' KLAY...... 1.8 BPM... 0.144 WS/48... 2.5 VORP... 18.6 PER


Thread Cliffs

By virtue of Klay being a much lower producer than guys like Hornacek or 09' Mo, Curry carried his team more than 09' Lebron.. So Curry should get credit for carrying a 1-man team just like Lebron or 07' Dirk.

The Curry Warriors were a 1-man team just like the 09' Cavs or 07' Mavs but the media misreported the team - they reported a +2800 preseason underdog roster as a "stacked" team after they won 67/73 games.. i.e. the biggest surprise team ever was suddenly "stacked", even though the sidekick was a low producer and lower than Hornacek/09' Mo

[Carbine]

You don't make much sense.

Regular season BPM had Dray at 5.5, Curry at 12. That's a 6.5 BPM difference in the regular season......

Lebron was 13.2 BPM and Mo was second on the team at 2.3 BPM a difference of 11 BPM

Playoffs are even more staggering.

Curry was 7 to Draymonds 5.2

Lebron was 18.5 to Ben Wallace 1.........

By your own numbers and arguments.... This is a joke. In favor of Lebron.

[Carbine]

Curry VORP 9.5
Draymond 5.3

Playoffs:

Curry 1.4
Draymond 1.7


Lebron VORP 11.8
Mo 3.1

Playoffs

Lebron 2.9
West 0.4



It just keeps getting worse for Curry and better for Lebron with the numbers you want to use. I want my time back....

[warriorfan]

Curry VORP 9.5
Draymond 5.3

Playoffs:

Curry 1.4
Draymond 1.7


Lebron VORP 11.8
Mo 3.1

Playoffs

Lebron 2.9
West 0.4



It just keeps getting worse for Curry and better for Lebron with the numbers you want to use. I want my time back....

Vorp is accumulating stat. More games you play, more mins you play, more vorp you get.

If you notice 3Ball doesn’t usually fall back on one metric which can always have flaws. There is no perfect metric. That is why we use a combination of them and take into account context to make an accurate judgement of performance.


Props to op for groundbreaking and narrative breaking content.

[Carbine]

I don't think you understand. No surprise with your agenda. All logic thrown out the window when it comes to Lebron or Curry.

Every stat 3ball used

VORP
PER
WS/48
BPM

They all paint the exact same picture. Lebron was miles ahead of whoever is second in each of those categories for the regular season and ahead even more in the post season.

Curry isn't even in the lead for the playoffs in some of these categories (4th is WS/48 and 2nd in VORP)

The picture that's trying to be painted here is not what he thinks it is.

[warriorfan]

I don't think you understand. No surprise with your agenda. All logic thrown out the window when it comes to Lebron or Curry.

Every stat 3ball used

VORP
PER
WS/48
BPM

They all paint the exact same picture. Lebron was miles ahead of whoever is second in each of those categories for the regular season and ahead even more in the post season.

Curry isn't even in the lead for the playoffs in some of these categories (4th is WS/48 and 2nd in VORP)

The picture that's trying to be painted here is not what he thinks it is.

You suck at talking sports.

[ShawkFactory]

You suck at talking sports.

"Fvck..you might be right" in warriofan language :lol

[warriorfan]

"Fvck..you might be right" in warriofan language :lol

No. There is a certain iq level that needs to be met for me to seriously acknowledge a post. I’m done teaching idiots basic concepts.

That minimum level was not met by Carbine so he’s not going to get a real response. He can try again and make a better post and I’ll think about it.

[ShawkFactory]

No. There is a certain iq level that needs to be met for me to seriously acknowledge a post. I’m done teaching idiots basic concepts.

That minimum level was not met by Carbine so he’s not going to get a real response. He can try again and make a better post and I’ll think about it.

Okay well you said this:


That is why we use a combination of them

As if those combinations are actually used all at once and not selectively based on whatever is trying to be said :lol

Tomorrow we'll be hearing about how someone is better than Pippen based on PPG and FG% in separate 6 series game series in different years.

I'm sure you've noticed how that "combination" is conspicuously absent here. Wouldn't fit. Right now it's all about VORP, PER, BPM, and WS over a regular season sample. That will change quick.

[3ba11]

I don't think you understand. No surprise with your agenda. All logic thrown out the window when it comes to Lebron or Curry.

Every stat 3ball used

VORP
PER
WS/48
BPM

They all paint the exact same picture. Lebron was miles ahead of whoever is second in each of those categories for the regular season and ahead even more in the post season.

Curry isn't even in the lead for the playoffs in some of these categories (4th is WS/48 and 2nd in VORP)

The picture that's trying to be painted here is not what he thinks it is.


Stats aren't enough when we're talking about 1st options, since the playing style/skillset of a 1st option dictates the team's brand of ball, chemistry, fits, and therefore the team's potential ceiling.. i.e. an off-ball player like Duncan, Curry, MJ or Shaq allow ball movement systems, as required for dynasties (the best basketball) - their superior chemistry elevates teammates to play to their maximum capacity.. Contrastingly, the ball-dominance of Luka and Lebron imposes spot-up roles that prevent chemistry and top teammate performance, with rare exception.

Finally, excessive ball-dominance can't beat top teams, so ball-dominators struggle to successfully carry the scoring load against top teams.. Their inability to carry the "star" category of scoring requires more stars, which prevents GM's from getting the right defenders/others, aka elite roster construction.. Without elite roster construction, ball-dominators can't win with "normal" rosters of 1 franchise player (organically).. This is why I predicted years ago that Luka would need to team up with other franchise players to win.. He has done this by teaming up with Kyrie and now Lebron.

TLDR: Unlike 1st options who dictate brand of ball, chemistry, roster construction and team ceiling, 2nd options are essentially stat robots that produce as much as they can within the 1st option's brand of ball - therefore, their stats can be compared directly, such as Mo vs Klay... Since Mo easily outproduced Klay, it confirms that Curry had a 1-man team just like 09' Lebron, and actually did more with less (73 wins with a lower producer than Mo)... Carry on

[Carbine]

But by your very own metrics, Klay was not the second best player on the team. Draymond was.

Either way, if you want to go that route, why are you limiting it to just the regular season?

The playoffs matter much more, considering this is where seasons end or continue on. If you're going to judge Lebron for failing to win (in the playoffs) then the playoff stats should carry BY FAR the most weight, if not all the weight.

Isn't it easier to make the argument that Mo absolutely shit himself like no other "second option" has in the last 25 years?

Using YOUR stats, MO was

VORP = 0.3 (I know this is a accumulation stat but 0.3 is awful)
BPM = 0.4
Ws/48 = .103
PER = 13

These are significant declines across the board for the time period in which you want to criticize Lebron for (losing in the playoffs)

[tpols]

I think the point is Klay and Dray were made by the warriors system. Dray much moreso than Klay... he was a 2nd round pick crashout that landed in the perfect scenario. Klay could at least be an All Star elsewhere but we're talking Jeff Hornacek production without the dimes.

The facts remain the facts though. The Cavs were +300 title favorites in 2010 and the Warriors were +2800 underdogs in 2015. They were underdogs in 2016 as well.

A gigantic mountain of a difference.

Guess who won?

[3ba11]

But by your very own metrics, Klay was not the second best player on the team. Draymond was.




Klay was 2nd option

And tons of bench guys or low usage guys have high advanced metrics - these stats are all based on an individual's offensive rating (ORTG), and the creators of these stats say that ORTG can only be compared among players with the same usage/role... So the advanced stats of Mo must be compared to players of similar usage/role, aka Klay.






Either way, if you want to go that route, why are you limiting it to just the regular season?





The point is that since Mo easily outproduced Klay, it confirms that Curry's 73-win team was a 1-man team just like 09' Lebron, and that Curry did more with less (73 wins with a lower producer than Mo)...

Since Curry's Warriors were a 1-man team, Lebron and Kyrie's upset win is a comparable achievement to Dwight or Baron's upsets of 1-man teams in 09' and 07'... Curry's team was like 07' Mavs or 09' Cavs, but simply won a few more games.. The Cavs upset win is actually less impressive than Dwight's or Baron's because they were 1-man teams and the Cavs were a big 3 preseason favorite.

[SouBeachTalents]

Funny how this 1 man team won 5 games without Curry in the playoffs, while straight up blowing teams out to boot, then came within an eyelash of winning the Finals despite Curry having one of the worst Finals ever for a superstar.

[SouBeachTalents]

I think the point is Klay and Dray were made by the warriors system. Dray much moreso than Klay... he was a 2nd round pick crashout that landed in the perfect scenario. Klay could at least be an All Star elsewhere but we're talking Jeff Hornacek production without the dimes.

The facts remain the facts though. The Cavs were +300 title favorites in 2010 and the Warriors were +2800 underdogs in 2015. They were underdogs in 2016 as well.

A gigantic mountain of a difference.

Guess who won?
Which supporting cast would you rather have, the 2010 Cavs or the 2015 Warriors?

[tpols]

Which supporting cast would you rather have, the 2010 Cavs or the 2015 Warriors?

All comes down to optimization. Nobody thought the 2015 warriors would win a title much less hit almost 70 wins.

Chemistry matters. Not just team hoppin.

[Carbine]

That's a really outlandish thing to say comparing the 09 Cavs and '16 Warriors sans Curry or Lebron

It's really, really, really bad.

Let's use your metrics:

09 Cavs

VORP:

Mo 3.1
West 2
Varejuo 1.5
Wallace 1.2

Nobody else above a 1




VORP '16 Warriors:

Dray 5.3
Klay 2.5
Bogut 1.6
Iggy 1.4

Nobody else above 1


This is over 50 percent better production from the Warriors other good players vs what the Cavs had in this category.



Let's check out BPM

'09 Cavs

Mo 2.3
West 1.7
Wallace 1.6
Varujo 0.6

'16 Warriors


Dray 5.5
Bogut 2.4
Thompson 1.8
Iggy 1.1

Well, they came somewhat close to doubling the production in this category.



WS/48

09 Cavs

.166 varejo
.165 mo
.151 big z
.142 west
.140 Wally z


'16 warrioes

.190 green
.180 Bogut
.171 ezeli
.145 Livingston
.144 Klay




The '07 Cavs is even more of a joke. They had nobody even reach a 2 VORP besides Lebron and just one person broke above a 1 BPM besides Lebron.

These stats are really unkind to a guy like Iggy as well. I watched these guys play all the time live during this time and Iggy was an extremely important player for them but these 3ball stats make it seem like he was a slightly below average NBA player.

[ShawkFactory]

That's a really outlandish thing to say comparing the 09 Cavs and '16 Warriors sans Curry or Lebron

It's really, really, really bad.

Let's use your metrics:

09 Cavs

VORP:

Mo 3.1
West 2
Varejuo 1.5
Wallace 1.2

Nobody else above a 1




VORP '16 Warriors:

Dray 5.3
Klay 2.5
Bogut 1.6
Iggy 1.4

Nobody else above 1


This is over 50 percent better production from the Warriors other good players vs what the Cavs had in this category.



Let's check out BPM

'09 Cavs

Mo 2.3
West 1.7
Wallace 1.6
Varujo 0.6

'16 Warriors


Dray 5.5
Bogut 2.4
Thompson 1.8
Iggy 1.1

Well, they came somewhat close to doubling the production in this category.



WS/48

09 Cavs

.166 varejo
.165 mo
.151 big z
.142 west
.140 Wally z


'16 warrioes

.190 green
.180 Bogut
.171 ezeli
.145 Livingston
.144 Klay




The '07 Cavs is even more of a joke. They had nobody even reach a 2 VORP besides Lebron and just one person broke above a 1 BPM besides Lebron.

These stats are really unkind to a guy like Iggy as well. I watched these guys play all the time live during this time and Iggy was an extremely important player for them but these 3ball stats make it seem like he was a slightly below average NBA player.

What are you talking about dude? Non-first options are stat robots that don’t contribute things on the court outside of that

:lol

[3ba11]

That's a really outlandish thing to say comparing the 09 Cavs and '16 Warriors sans Curry or Lebron

It's really, really, really bad.

Let's use your metrics:

09 Cavs

VORP:

Mo 3.1
West 2
Varejuo 1.5
Wallace 1.2

Nobody else above a 1




VORP '16 Warriors:

Dray 5.3
Klay 2.5
Bogut 1.6
Iggy 1.4

Nobody else above 1


This is over 50 percent better production from the Warriors other good players vs what the Cavs had in this category.



Let's check out BPM

'09 Cavs

Mo 2.3
West 1.7
Wallace 1.6
Varujo 0.6

'16 Warriors


Dray 5.5
Bogut 2.4
Thompson 1.8
Iggy 1.1

Well, they came somewhat close to doubling the production in this category.



WS/48

09 Cavs

.166 varejo
.165 mo
.151 big z
.142 west
.140 Wally z


'16 warrioes

.190 green
.180 Bogut
.171 ezeli
.145 Livingston
.144 Klay




The '07 Cavs is even more of a joke. They had nobody even reach a 2 VORP besides Lebron and just one person broke above a 1 BPM besides Lebron.

These stats are really unkind to a guy like Iggy as well. I watched these guys play all the time live during this time and Iggy was an extremely important player for them but these 3ball stats make it seem like he was a slightly below average NBA player.


Klay destroys Mo, so that offsets the minor gaps you showed above for the low usage players - Lebron and Mo's "others"' stack up pretty well despite Lebron lacking the skill to produce the teammate-elevating ball movement system that Curry produced..

Ultimately, splitting hairs over the stats of low usage "bit" players and system players makes my point about the Warriors and Cavs being 1-man teams.. As soon as you start comparing the stats of bums, you lost and proved that the Warriors/Cavs were 1-man teams.

Btw, Draymond is a low usage system player that wouldn't start on most teams if he was drafted anywhere outside of Curry's era-changing system and brand of ball - most players say this... Draymond simply had a good slot in the system - anyone has good plus minus in that role.. It"s similar to Kukoc being 4th in the league for plus/minus during the 2nd three-peat but then cratering to a massive negative in 1999 without a winning system to give him a winning position/role/advanced numbers.. This is how advanced stats work for low usage and low ppg players..

[3ba11]

.
Thread Cliffs

09' Lebron enjoyed better statistical production from his high usage/high ppg teammates (sidekick) than 16' Curry got from his sidekick.

However, Curry got slightly more production from replaceable low usage players, due to the equitable, ball movement system that his skillset allows... Systems are meant to boost the role players, and Curry's skillet allows such a system.. Every dynasty used a ball movement system that required an all-time off-ball player like Curry, Duncan, Shaq or MJ.

Ultimately, the 09' Cavs, 16' Warriors and 07' Mavs were 1-man teams that got upset in the playoffs.. The were also upset by 1-man teams (Dwight, Baron), except Lebron's big 3 preseason favorite super-teams (16' Cavs).

[Hey Yo]

If had to choose.... no team in the league would take Mo in their starting line-up for their upcoming 2010 season compared to Klay for their 2017 season.

Mo made 35 3pt'ers in 2009

Klay made 276 in 2016


Mo was better :roll:

[ShawkFactory]

Klay destroys Mo

Correct.

[3ba11]

If had to choose.... no team in the league would take Mo in their starting line-up for their upcoming 2010 season compared to Klay for their 2017 season.

Mo made 35 3pt'ers in 2009

Klay made 276 in 2016


Mo was better :roll:


Relative to the league in 2009 (before the 3-point boom), Mo was a top 3 shooter in the league based on 3-point makes and efficiency

This is why he provided more help than Klay based on BPM, WS/48 and VORP

Btw, Lebron is a guy that needs MAJOR playmaking help, so Mo fit the bill, while Klay was trash - he doesn't pass or get to the line, so he lacks the sophistication of Mo

Injuries destroyed Mo's career, but Lebron still got the best Mo (> Klay) and they were an OKC level favorite vs 1-star team in 09'.. Unfortunately, excessive ball-domination can't beat top teams, so Lebron can't carry the scoring load against top teams... Accordingly, he needs more than 18 on 38% (pippen level) - he needs all-time scorers like Wade, Kyrie, AD

[3ba11]

And the cherry on top is that Mo arrived on a 45-win team in 2009, but his spacing elevated Lebron's stats and game to 66 wins. . He taught everyone that LeDrive needs spacing to play his best and MVP caliber.. Otoh, great jumpshooters like MJ, SGA, Kobe and Curry can shoot over packed paints, so they can win with bad spacing/three-pt shooting... Accordingly, LeDrive's need for spacing is a weakness

[warriorfan]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K_9gGorAfqI

[SouBeachTalents]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?app=desktop&v=-SPjJ197oKE

With the season on the line Mo could never.

[warriorfan]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?app=desktop&v=-SPjJ197oKE

With the season on the line Mo could never.

Yeah bron would freeze him out if he started getting that hot. Bron would rather lose than give his teammates any shine, see 2011

[3ba11]

If we replaced 09' Mo with Klay, then Lebron would still need an additional player because the Cavs would have no secondary ball-handler after Lebron and Lebron needs a lot of playmaking help.. It's easy to forget that Jeff McGinnis led the Cavs in assists in 04', and then Lebron needed 5-10 APG guys like Snow, Hughes, Mo, Wade, Kyrie, Rondo and Luka.. he NEVER got by with a nothingburger in the playmaking department like Klorver

[3ba11]

If we replaced 09' Mo with Klay, then Lebron would still need an additional player because the Cavs would have no secondary ball-handler after Lebron and Lebron needs a lot of playmaking help.. It's easy to forget that Jeff McGinnis led the Cavs in assists in 04', and then Lebron needed 5-10 APG guys like Snow, Hughes, Mo, Wade, Kyrie, Rondo and Luka.. he NEVER got by with a nothingburger in the playmaking department like Klorver


Thread Cliffs

Lebron enjoyed better statistical production from Mo in 2009 than Curry got from Klay in 2016.. The 09' Cavs, 16' Warriors and 07' Mavs were simply 1-man teams that got upset in the playoffs.. they were also upset BY one-man teams (Dwight, Baron), except Lebron's big 3 preseason favorite super-team.. Heading into the 2015 season, Curry's Warriors were actually considered a horrible roster with +2800 preseason odds and a sidekick that under-produced 09' Mo or Hornacek.. So the results-oriented saying "73-win team" robs Curry of the 1-man carry-job that Lebron or Dirk got credit for with higher-producing teammates in 09' or 07'.

[Carbine]

If we replaced 09' Mo with Klay, then Lebron would still need an additional player because the Cavs would have no secondary ball-handler after Lebron and Lebron needs a lot of playmaking help.. It's easy to forget that Jeff McGinnis led the Cavs in assists in 04', and then Lebron needed 5-10 APG guys like Snow, Hughes, Mo, Wade, Kyrie, Rondo and Luka.. he NEVER got by with a nothingburger in the playmaking department like Klorver

He would still need an additional player and playerS because that team would have been the weakest champion sans their #1 player in the modern 3 pt line NBA.

[ShawkFactory]

Thread Cliffs

Lebron enjoyed better statistical production from Mo in 2009 than Curry got from Klay in 2016.. The 09' Cavs, 16' Warriors and 07' Mavs were simply 1-man teams that got upset in the playoffs.. they were also upset BY one-man teams (Dwight, Baron), except Lebron's big 3 preseason favorite super-team.. Heading into the 2015 season, Curry's Warriors were actually considered a horrible roster with +2800 preseason odds and a sidekick that under-produced 09' Mo or Hornacek.. So the results-oriented saying "73-win team" robs Curry of the 1-man carry-job that Lebron or Dirk got credit for with higher-producing teammates in 09' or 07'.

You thread-cliffed yourself 9 minutes after your post? Nice.

[3ba11]

He would still need an additional player and playerS because that team would have been the weakest champion sans their #1 player in the modern 3 pt line NBA.


Mo's spacing is what allowed LeDrive's stats to explode in 2009 and the team to increase from 45 to 66 wins - Pippen's bricklaying would never be the perfect fit that Mo was, just like Ingram, Hughes or Westbrook were bad fits that failed.

Pippen was a system player, while Mo could get 17 ppg and 6 apg without a system, or create his own shot in the halfcourt, or space the floor - Mo was simply a better scorer than Pippen, while the Cavs had better team defenses than the 1st three-peat Bulls.. The 07' Cavs also had better defensive ranking, which was long before Lebron made All-Defense, so the Cavs simply had a great defensive roster.

Even if you disagree that Mo was a better scorer than Pippen, Jamison easily was - he was a 20k scorer that outscored Lebron in the 07' 1st Round and was 14th for MVP in 2008 (considered better than Pau before Pau joined Kobe).. Jamison/Shaq were added to a 66-win league favorite.

But I openly concede that the 09' Cavs, 07' Mavs, 16' Warriors or 90's Bulls were 1-man teams... The issue is that if people referred to the 07' Mavs or 09' Cavs as "67-win teams", this would imply they were stacked, thereby robbing Lebron/Dirk of having carry-jobs and 1-man teams.. Similarly, saying "73-win team" robs Curry of having a carry-job and 1-man team, despite a +2800 roster and a sidekick that under-produced 09' Mo, 07' Howard, or Hornacek.

[1987_Lakers]

Mo's spacing is what allowed LeDrive's stats to explode in 2009 and the team to increase from 45 to 66 wins - Pippen's bricklaying would never be the perfect fit that Mo was, just like Ingram, Hughes or Westbrook were bad fits that failed.

Pippen was a system player, while Mo could get 17 ppg and 6 apg without a system, or create his own shot in the halfcourt, or space the floor - Mo was simply a better scorer than Pippen, while the Cavs had better team defenses than the 1st three-peat Bulls.. The 07' Cavs also had better defensive ranking, which was long before Lebron made All-Defense, so the Cavs simply had a great defensive roster.

Even if you disagree that Mo was a better scorer than Pippen, Jamison easily was - he was a 20k scorer that outscored Lebron in the 07' 1st Round and was 14th for MVP in 2008 (considered better than Pau before Pau joined Kobe).. Jamison/Shaq were added to a 66-win league favorite.

But I openly concede that the 09' Cavs, 07' Mavs, 16' Warriors or 90's Bulls were 1-man teams... The issue is that if people referred to the 07' Mavs or 09' Cavs as "67-win teams", this would imply they were stacked, thereby robbing Lebron/Dirk of having carry-jobs and 1-man teams.. Similarly, saying "73-win team" robs Curry of having a carry-job and 1-man team, despite a +2800 roster and a sidekick that under-produced 09' Mo, 07' Howard, or Hornacek.

'16 Warriors a one man team?

LOL

[3ba11]

'16 Warriors a one man team?

LOL


09' MO......... 2.3 BPM... 0.165 WS.48... 3.1 VORP... 17.2 PER
16' KLAY...... 1.8 BPM... 0.144 WS/48... 2.5 VORP... 18.6 PER


if people referred to the 07' Mavs or 09' Cavs as "67-win teams", this would imply they were stacked, thereby robbing Lebron/Dirk of having carry-jobs and 1-man teams..

Similarly, saying "73-win team" robs Curry of having a carry-job and 1-man team, despite a sidekick that under-produced 09' Mo, 07' Howard, or Hornacek.

The 15' Warriors were considered a horrible roster with +2800 preseason odds, so they shocked the league and took the league by storm in that regular season

[1987_Lakers]

Wasn't Draymond on his way to win FMVP if the warriors won in 2016?

I don't know why you always devalue defensive players.

NBA teams already tried your method of all scoring players with no defense (KD's Nets & Suns teams), and they failed miserably.

[SouBeachTalents]

Wasn't Draymond on his way to win FMVP if the warriors won in 2016?

I don't know why you always devalue defensive players.

NBA teams already tried your method of all scoring players with no defense (KD's Nets & Suns teams), and they failed miserably.
http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?489427-Breaking-The-Houston-Rockets-are-trading-James-Harden-to-the-Brooklyn-Nets&p=14226806&viewfull=1#post14226806

He also predicted the Suns would win the title in 2024 when they got swept in the first round :lol Just absolutely clueless about basketball.

[3ba11]

Wasn't Draymond on his way to win FMVP if the warriors won in 2016?

I don't know why you always devalue defensive players.

NBA teams already tried your method of all scoring players with no defense (KD's Nets & Sun's teams), and they failed miserably.


You're purposefully misunderstanding the points being made so you can hold onto false beliefs that you were told by someone on TV

First of all, my method isn't an all-scoring team... My method and every GM's dream is to get a player like Curry, Kobe or MJ that can carry the "star" category of scoring, thereby allowing GM's to fill out the roster with cheap defenders - this is a GM's dream, as opposed to having a guy that can't carry the scoring load and therefore needs a bunch of expensive star help..

In this case, it's common knowledge that excessive ball-domination can't beat top teams, so Lebron can't carry the scoring load against top teams.. This inability to carry the star category of scoring requires more stars, which prevents GM's from getting the right defenders/others, aka elite roster construction.. Without elite roster construction, Lebron can't win with normal rosters of 1 franchise player, aka organic.

Secondly, guys like Lebron would never be able to play with non-scorers like Rodman or Draymond - this is common knowledge.. Bron-ball needs a ton of scoring help, so it can't go 4 on 5.

Thirdly, bringing up low usage/low FGA players makes my point that the Warriors were a 1-man team.. Draymond was just a role player that was lucky to land in a goat system that Curry's skillet allowed

Low usage/low FGA players like Draymond only have positive plus/minus on winning teams... On a losing team, Draymond is a big negative - he simply got a good slot in the goat system... It's similar to Kukoc being 4th in the league in plus/minus but then -300 in 1999 without the system

[3ba11]

Wasn't Draymond on his way to win FMVP if the warriors won in 2016?





No because a Draymond-led team is a weak team - Dray needs to be at 5th or 6th option for a team to be any good, let alone 73 wins..

And the fact that Dray was the scoring leader instead of Klay further boosts my point about Klay (< 09' Mo).

In addition to Klay's ineptness, the reason the Warriors were so depleted by Game 7 is because of Curry's surgically-repaired MCL, which needed a rest after his hero-job against OKC... Meanwhile, Dray's suspension shut off the most well-oiled machine of all-time, and there simply wasn't enough time to get the engine back up to speed .. They had just enough gas in the tank for 73 wins + title, but the Dray suspension left then with an empty tank and job unfinished.. That's also partly why Dray was more motivated than anyone in Game 7 - it probably ruined their normal chemistry - again, they needed a little more time to get the engine back revving to full speed

[SouBeachTalents]

No because a Draymond-led team is a weak team - Dray needs to be at 5th or 6th option for a team to be any good, let alone 73 wins..

And the fact that Dray was the scoring leader instead of Klay further boosts my point about Klay (< 09' Mo).

In addition to Klay's ineptness, the reason the Warriors were so depleted by Game 7 is because of Curry's surgically-repaired MCL, which needed a rest after his hero-job against OKC... Meanwhile, Dray's suspension shut off the most well-oiled machine of all-time, and there simply wasn't enough time to get the engine back up to speed .. They had just enough gas in the tank for 73 wins + title, but the Dray suspension left then with an empty tank and job unfinished.. That's also partly why Dray was more motivated than anyone in Game 7 - it probably ruined their normal chemistry - again, they needed a little more time to get the engine back revving to full speed
They just ran into the GOAT

https://i.pinimg.com/736x/b3/75/c7/b375c7a409b2c1eaafcf56ef23a110b3--lebron-james-stats-nba-finals-.jpg

[3ba11]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/ClArCksWQAQ_EqP.jpg


Imagine if Mathurin dominated SGA, or Pippen dominated FMVP Barkley - it's impossible to lose when your sidekick dominates the current MVP - destroying the MVP is the most help possible, and Lebron is the only guy that ever had this kind of help..

The only reason the Cavs were down 1-3 is because Lebron wet the bed through 4 games (24 and 6 TO's per game).. That's the only reason a big 3 preseason favorite was losing to a 1-man team.. Lebron had a team with 3 franchise players versus a 1-man team that was carried to 70 wins, despite a sidekick that under-produced 09' Mo or Hornacek..




They just ran into the GOAT

https://i.pinimg.com/736x/b3/75/c7/b375c7a409b2c1eaafcf56ef23a110b3--lebron-james-stats-nba-finals-.jpg



^^^ baby-brained

It's called a statistical anomaly and a meaningless footnote in history.

Lebron had teammates match him in every category, so he never CARRIED any category.. It isn't even optimal to lead role player categories like rebounding, since teams want their role players doing the role player stuff.. Otoh, the ultimate carry-job is carrying the "star" category of scoring, thereby needing less stars and winning with cheap defenders/others, while facing max defensive attention (carrying scoring load)..

Accordingly, all of Jordan Finals destroy Lebron's, especially Jordan's 41.0 ppg in the 93' Finals while facing "all eyes on me" defensive attention (carrying scoring load) in a slower-paced series - this is far superior to Lebron's 29.7 ppg, while having an equal-scoring partner to attract equal defensive attention and CLOSE.. It's night and day.

Defeating max defensive attention (carrying scoring load) > defeating HALF defensive attention (equal-scoring partner & CLOSER)

[Carbine]

Who were the Warriors Cheap defenders?

Klay, Draymond, Iggy and Bogut all cost more against the cap than Curry did in 2016.

Here's a thought - they were far more than "defensive" players.

[3ba11]

Who were the Warriors Cheap defenders?

Klay, Draymond, Iggy and Bogut all cost more against the cap than Curry did in 2016.

Here's a thought - they were far more than "defensive" players.


Generally, the category with the biggest correlation to higher salaries is scoring - it's the "star" category... And..

* Bogut = Big Z or Ben Wallace

31 year old Iggy (1x all-star) = 31-year old Szczerbiak (1x all-star) -

* Klay < 09' Mo and easily Jamison

* DraySystem Green = all defensive heady Varejao or Ben Wallace, or even old Shaq



So again, "the phrase" 73-win team" implies a stacked team, which robs Curry of having the carry-job and 1-man teams that 07' Dirk or 09' Lebron got credit for (despite higher-producing teammates)... Curry was the only unanimous MVP ever FOR A REASON (1-man team)

[SouBeachTalents]

Generally, the category with the biggest correlation to higher salaries is scoring - it's the "star" category... And..

* Bogut = Big Z or Ben Wallace

31 year old Iggy (1x all-star) = 31-year old Szczerbiak (1x all-star) -

* Klay < 09' Mo and easily Jamison

* DraySystem Green = all defensive heady Varejao or Ben Wallace, or even old Shaq



So again, "the phrase" 73-win team" implies a stacked team, which robs Curry of having the carry-job and 1-man teams that 07' Dirk or 09' Lebron got credit for (despite higher-producing teammates)... Curry was the only unanimous MVP ever FOR A REASON (1-man team)
I think this is genuinely the worst post of the year.

[3ba11]

I think this is genuinely the worst post of the year.


The only difference between the teams is that Curry's off-ball game and ball movement chemistry allowed a goat system that elevated Iggy, Bogut, and Dray, while Lebron's ball-domination reduced Zydrunas, Varejao, Szczerbiak, Delonte, Jamison and others.. Otherwise, Zydrunas was comparable to Bogut, or Jamison easily better than Klay, or Varejao and Mo compare to Iggy and Dray... System-ball and winning simply makes Curry's teammates seem better than Lebron imposing spot-up roles and losing upon everyone

[3ba11]

.
Thread Cliffs

Saying that Jamison/Shaq were added to a 66-win league favorite robs Lebron of the carry-job in 09', while saying that KD was added to a 73-win team robs Curry of his carry-job despite lesser-producing teammates than 09' Lebron or 07' Dirk (stats in OP).. Accordingly, the proper way to say it is that "KD was added to a 1-man team that won 73 games".

This response was necessary because a "normal" roster of 1 franchise player can't compete with a super-team of 3 franchise players, and a +2800 preseason roster can't compete with someone that assembled a record 6 straight preseason favorites (the previous record was 3 straight)..

[3ba11]

The point was that the term "66-win team" implies that the 09' Cavs were a stacked team - that's the point... Same thing with "73-win team" even though Curry's high usage teammates (Klay )were lower producers than Lebron's (Mo)