2004 Finals Loss definitely is on Kobe

[gengiskhan]

Given the most dominant team SUPER DUPER LAL team in NBA history

NBA's Most dominant Big man Shaq was still 32 yo. shooting 60%FG in Finals dominating.

Gary Payton was still 35 yo. Malone was also there in the line up.

Kobe still choked having the best line up ever in the NBA history to clean SWEEP title.

Kobe's fake MJ wannabe ego in quest of stealing FMVP from Shaq choked away the easiest title win in the NBA history.

[Lakers Legend#32]

Don't forget Payton pouted in that series.

[gengiskhan]

Don't forget Payton pouted in that series.

nobody pouted like Kobe at 38%FG.

gtfoutta here loser.

[Lebron23]

Yes

[ELITEpower23]

Still top 15 doe

BR even ranked Kobe at 11

[ImKobe]

Rest of the team combined shot worse than Kobe lol, and Kobe was playing while hurt

Malone was injured and Payton struggled in the triangle which is why they lost. No help around KB/Shaq meant there just wasn't enough offense to compete with the Pistons. Lakers' defense and their lack of help cost them that series. As much as Shaq produced in single coverage he was a turnstile on defense.

[jayfan]

Rest of the team combined shot worse than Kobe lol, and Kobe was playing while hurt

Malone was injured and Payton struggled in the triangle which is why they lost. No help around KB/Shaq meant there just wasn't enough offense to compete with the Pistons. Lakers' defense and their lack of help cost them that series. As much as Shaq produced in single coverage he was a turnstile on defense.


Kobe wasn't playing hurt. Stop it.


The Lakers' excuse tree for '04 never ceases to sprout new branches.

.

[ImKobe]

Kobe wasn't playing hurt. Stop it.


The Lakers' excuse tree for '04 never ceases to sprout new branches.

.

Kobe had surgeries going into the '04 season and got injured in the middle of it.

Duncan won Finals mvp averaging less points on almost identical efficiency as Kobe (47.1%TS for Duncan vs 45.6% for Kobe) vs. those Pistons a year later.

[ShawkFactory]

Kobe had surgeries going into the '04 season and got injured in the middle of it.

Duncan won Finals mvp averaging less points on almost identical efficiency as Kobe (47.1%TS for Duncan vs 45.6% for Kobe) vs. those Pistons a year later.

Come on...

[Phoenix]

Kobe had surgeries going into the '04 season and got injured in the middle of it.



Probably wasn't a great idea taking 29 more shots than Shaq, then.

[ImKobe]

Probably wasn't a great idea taking 29 more shots than Shaq, then.

Shaq took 30 more FTs. I keep having to say this but Shaq was not the same Shaq in '04... he significantly upped his volume as is in the Finals and really didn't have more to give. Their worst loss in the series came when Kobe barely shot the ball at all. Kobe also played more minutes than Shaq.

[SouBeachTalents]

Shaq took 30 more FTs. I keep having to say this but Shaq was not the same Shaq in '04... he significantly upped his volume as is in the Finals and really didn't have more to give. Their worst loss in the series came when Kobe barely shot the ball at all. Kobe also played more minutes than Shaq.
For real, Kobe had a good series, people need to get off his back.

[Phoenix]

Shaq took 30 more FTs. I keep having to say this but Shaq was not the same Shaq in '04... he significantly upped his volume as is in the Finals and really didn't have more to give. Their worst loss in the series came when Kobe barely shot the ball at all. Kobe also played more minutes than Shaq.

If Shaq wasn't the same Shaq in 2004( and I know he wasn't, in fact I'd say he wasn't quite the same in 03 either), then Kobe wouldn't have been the same Kobe if he was injured, yeah? He shot too much at too low efficiency. Also, Shaq played 43 minutes a game to Kobe's 46, that's not enough of a time difference to justify Kobe taking an extra 6 shots a game, especially at 38%. The worst loss in the series came about when neither Shaq nor Kobe shot the ball much, but in the game you're referring to Kobe was 4 out of 13, so if he shot any more they'd probably have lost by 30 instead of 20.


Hell, Kobe himself is on record as saying that series was on him:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I0ucJPJr4OY&ab_channel=THELAIR

Here's Chauncey Billips clearly outlining the Pistons strategy,:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kt9N79-VlFo&t=202s&ab_channel=ALLTHESMOKE

[imdaman99]

That Pistons team was dominant on defense. They were not simply gonna allow Shaq to drop 40 pts on 60% shooting. We act like all Kobe had to do was give the ball to Shaq and the Lakers were easily winning that series. Nope. Pistons matched up well against them. Legit players at every position and great bench.

[ImKobe]

If Shaq wasn't the same Shaq in 2004( and I know he wasn't, in fact I'd say he wasn't quite the same in 03 either), then Kobe wouldn't have been the same Kobe if he was injured, yeah? He shot too much at too low efficiency. Also, Shaq played 43 minutes a game to Kobe's 46, that's not enough of a time difference to justify Kobe taking an extra 6 shots a game, especially at 38%. The worst loss in the series came about when neither Shaq nor Kobe shot the ball much, but in the game you're referring to Kobe was 4 out of 13, so if he shot any more they'd probably have lost by 30 instead of 20.


Hell, Kobe himself is on record as saying that series was on him:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I0ucJPJr4OY&ab_channel=THELAIR

Here's Chauncey Billips clearly outlining the Pistons strategy,:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kt9N79-VlFo&t=202s&ab_channel=ALLTHESMOKE

Who else was taking those shots? Malone's injured and old, Payton's old and not really good in the triangle, role players couldn't make shots and they're up against a generational defense. They were going to live or die by Kobe like they did for most of the season. It's 18 minutes of difference where they're usage rate is almost identical with Kobe having 2% more which makes sense.

Of course Kobe took accountability as he should, but the people arguing that the Lakers would've done any better if he didn't shoot are smoking on something because it was evident in this series that they simply didn't have enough offense to win against them. Kobe shot poorly sure, he was actually decent in 4th quarters, well above in efficiency compared to his first 3 quarters, and they simply couldn't get stops for example in Game 4 where KB had 8 points on 3/6 shooting 2/2 FT while Shaq had 13 points on 5/6 FG & 3/6 FT. They scored 24 points but the Pistons scored 32 and they lost by 8 and the series was over. You see the issue right there though. Their two best players score almost all of the points in the 4th and the Pistons beat them because they have two double-digit scorers in the 4th + Chauncey adding 8 of his own.

Lakers got outrebounded by a significant margin and the Pistons got to the line 12 more times per game, and it wasn't just because Ben Wallace was a poor FT shooter, he only took 34 of their 171 FTAs. I don't see how Kobe shooting less fixes these problems.

[1987_Lakers]

That Pistons team was dominant on defense. They were not simply gonna allow Shaq to drop 40 pts on 60% shooting. We act like all Kobe had to do was give the ball to Shaq and the Lakers were easily winning that series. Nope. Pistons matched up well against them. Legit players at every position and great bench.

The Pistons strategy was to play Shaq one on one with a much smaller Ben Wallace, Shaq was actually feasting everytime he got the ball, but Kobe was too focused on playing hero ball.

Kobe is for sure the #1 reason why we lost, he was awful.

[Phoenix]

Who else was taking those shots? Malone's injured and old, Payton's old and not really good in the triangle, role players couldn't make shots and they're up against a generational defense. They were going to live or die by Kobe like they did for most of the season. It's 18 minutes of difference where they're usage rate is almost identical with Kobe having 2% more which makes sense.

Of course Kobe took accountability as he should, but the people arguing that the Lakers would've done any better if he didn't shoot are smoking on something because it was evident in this series that they simply didn't have enough offense to win against them. Kobe shot poorly sure, he was actually decent in 4th quarters, well above in efficiency compared to his first 3 quarters, and they simply couldn't get stops for example in Game 4 where KB had 8 points on 3/6 shooting 2/2 FT while Shaq had 13 points on 5/6 FG & 3/6 FT. They scored 24 points but the Pistons scored 32 and they lost by 8 and the series was over. You see the issue right there though. Their two best players score almost all of the points in the 4th and the Pistons beat them because they have two double-digit scorers in the 4th + Chauncey adding 8 of his own.

Lakers got outrebounded by a significant margin and the Pistons got to the line 12 more times per game, and it wasn't just because Ben Wallace was a poor FT shooter, he only took 34 of their 171 FTAs. I don't see how Kobe shooting less fixes these problems.

Its funny how Malones age and Paytons triangle inefficiencies weren't hurdles to getting to the finals. It's being brought up now to mask Kobes shooting woes. Who else was taking those shots, you ask? Problem is, a player taking the highest shots on low volume can disrupt the entire flow of an offense. Role players feed off the stars and how do you expect the lesser players to develop any kind of rhythm with one guy taking nearly a 1/3 of the shots on shit efficiency? As great as the Pistons were defensively, let's not act like they were the only elite defensive team LA faced that playoff run. The Spurs were the top ranked defensive team that year, had a more balanced offense than Detroit, and LA took them out in 6.

Now to be clear, do I think feeding Shaq more changes the outcome of the series? No, I do think ultimately it was a bad matchup, but the way Kobe played took them further away from any hope of even making it competitive. Chauncey Bilips, the finals MVP, is telling you straight up they basically played to Kobes ego by trapping him and gambling that he would resort to hero ball which he did, because Kobe was very much in the mode of wanting to prove he was the man at that point and the main catalyst behind the Lakers winning another title with that core. And even with that, you can't help yourself but keep up a novel's worth of excuses whenever Kobe is concerned.

[SouBeachTalents]

Its funny how Malones age and Paytons triangle inefficiencies weren't hurdles to getting to the finals. It's being brought up now to mask Kobes shooting woes. Who else was taking those shots, you ask? Problem is, a player taking the highest shots on low volume can disrupt the entire flow of an offense. Role players feed off the stars and how do you expect the lesser players to develop any kind of rhythm with one guy taking nearly a 1/3 of the shots on shit efficiency? As great as the Pistons were defensively, let's not act like they were the only elite defensive team LA faced that playoff run. The Spurs were the top ranked defensive team that year, had a more balanced offense than Detroit, and LA took them out in 6.

Now to be clear, do I think feeding Shaq more changes the outcome of the series? No, I do think ultimately it was a bad matchup, but the way Kobe played took them further away from any hope of even making it competitive. Chauncey Bilips, the finals MVP, is telling you straight up they basically played to Kobes ego by trapping him and gambling that he would resort to hero ball which he did, because Kobe was very much in the mode of wanting to prove he was the man at that point and the main catalyst behind the Lakers winning another title with that core. And even with that, you can't help yourself but keep up a novel's worth of excuses whenever Kobe is concerned.
He genuinely can never admit that Kobe ever played poorly. It's always a litany of excuses, often comically flimsy.

[Phoenix]

He genuinely can never admit that Kobe ever played poorly. It's always a litany of excuses, often comically flimsy.

Yep, he's the one Kobe fan you can count on to excuse any and everything with Kobe. I dont think even Tpols is that obsessed.

[Tavr]

Wasn't Malone hurt in those finals? I remember he missed a game or two because of a shoulder injury. Either way, he was a complete shell of himself. That's one big reason the Lakers got thumped.

Another reason was Kobe's chucking and poor shot selection. The Lakers should've made a concentrated effort to keep feeding the ball to Shaq, who lowkey had a decent series. In Game 4, Shaq had 36 & 20 on 16/21 (72%FG). That statline is a callback to PEAK Shaq. I'll be honest...it looked like Kobe was gunning for that MVP :lol

[Phoenix]

Another reason was Kobe's chucking and poor shot selection. The Lakers should've made a concentrated effort to keep feeding the ball to Shaq, who lowkey had a decent series. In Game 4, Shaq had 36 & 20 on 16/21 (72%FG). That statline is a callback to PEAK Shaq. I'll be honest...it looked like Kobe was gunning for that MVP :lol

Now be careful, lest you be overrun with 100 ImKobe excuses.

[gengiskhan]

Wasn't Malone hurt in those finals? I remember he missed a game or two because of a shoulder injury. Either way, he was a complete shell of himself. That's one big reason the Lakers got thumped.

Another reason was Kobe's chucking and poor shot selection. The Lakers should've made a concentrated effort to keep feeding the ball to Shaq, who lowkey had a decent series. In Game 4, Shaq had 36 & 20 on 16/21 (72%FG). That statline is a callback to PEAK Shaq. I'll be honest...it looked like Kobe was gunning for that MVP :lol

Kobe is the saboteur of 2004 Finals.
Deep down, Both Phil and Shaq knows it.

One thing many NBA Fans dont understand.
the real obstacle in winning NBA finals is jitters and panic.

Just like 1991 NBA Finalist Bulls had in Game 1.
but 2004 LAL already 3-peated. Blueprint to win another ring was well established.

Go thru 31 yrs old peak prime Shaq and let him get his 34 ppg. 4th FMVP.
With Kobe get his 22 ppg with his support. LAL win in 5-6 games max.

instead, Kobe said he'll get to 32 ppg and FMVP even if series go 7 games.
Let Shaq get 27 ppg with support and LAL are so deep they will win 7th game.

The Kobe design backfired. LAL got backdoor swept.
2004 Kobe chokejob is worst than 2007 LBJ loss or 2011 LBJ chokejob.

2004 LAL was guaranteed win with peak prime 31 Yrs old Shaq collecting 4th FMVP.

[jayfan]

Kobe is the saboteur of 2004 Finals.
Deep down, Both Phil and Shaq knows it.

One thing many NBA Fans dont understand.
the real obstacle in winning NBA finals is jitters and panic.

Just like 1991 NBA Finalist Bulls had in Game 1.
but 2004 LAL already 3-peated. Blueprint to win another ring was well established.

Go thru 31 yrs old peak prime Shaq and let him get his 34 ppg. 4th FMVP.
With Kobe get his 22 ppg with his support. LAL win in 5-6 games max.

instead, Kobe said he'll get to 32 ppg and FMVP even if series go 7 games.
Let Shaq get 27 ppg with support and LAL are so deep they will win 7th game.

The Kobe design backfired. LAL got backdoor swept.
2004 Kobe chokejob is worst than 2007 LBJ loss or 2011 LBJ chokejob.

2004 LAL was guaranteed win with peak prime 31 Yrs old Shaq collecting 4th FMVP.


Deep? That Lakers team had absolutely no depth whatsoever.

.

[ImKobe]

Its funny how Malones age and Paytons triangle inefficiencies weren't hurdles to getting to the finals. It's being brought up now to mask Kobes shooting woes. Who else was taking those shots, you ask? Problem is, a player taking the highest shots on low volume can disrupt the entire flow of an offense. Role players feed off the stars and how do you expect the lesser players to develop any kind of rhythm with one guy taking nearly a 1/3 of the shots on shit efficiency? As great as the Pistons were defensively, let's not act like they were the only elite defensive team LA faced that playoff run. The Spurs were the top ranked defensive team that year, had a more balanced offense than Detroit, and LA took them out in 6.

Now to be clear, do I think feeding Shaq more changes the outcome of the series? No, I do think ultimately it was a bad matchup, but the way Kobe played took them further away from any hope of even making it competitive. Chauncey Bilips, the finals MVP, is telling you straight up they basically played to Kobes ego by trapping him and gambling that he would resort to hero ball which he did, because Kobe was very much in the mode of wanting to prove he was the man at that point and the main catalyst behind the Lakers winning another title with that core. And even with that, you can't help yourself but keep up a novel's worth of excuses whenever Kobe is concerned.

Malone's woes? He got INJURED and RETIRED, he barely played past Game 2, he would've been their hustle guy who could've limited Sheed's output and given them the spark they needed on offense to open things up, he was instrumental to their success all year.

GP gave them next to nothing because he struggled running the offense in the half court. So Lakers essentially got nothing out of the 3rd & 4th options but apparently it's all on one guy shooting just slightly worse than he did in the previous 3 rounds. Sure.

Again, Lakers had their worst loss when Kobe did not play hero ball and took just 13 shots. What did the rest of the guys do? Nothing. When the opposing team is getting to the line 30+ times a game and is destroying you on the offensive glass there might be issues outside of Kobe that you should be worried about.

[Phoenix]

Malone's woes? He got INJURED and RETIRED, he barely played past Game 2, he would've been their hustle guy who could've limited Sheed's output and given them the spark they needed on offense to open things up, he was instrumental to their success all year.

GP gave them next to nothing because he struggled running the offense in the half court. So Lakers essentially got nothing out of the 3rd & 4th options but apparently it's all on one guy shooting just slightly worse than he did in the previous 3 rounds. Sure.

Again, Lakers had their worst loss when Kobe did not play hero ball and took just 13 shots. What did the rest of the guys do? Nothing. When the opposing team is getting to the line 30+ times a game and is destroying you on the offensive glass there might be issues outside of Kobe that you should be worried about.

Reread what I said. I said Kobe's woes, not Malones.

The game where Kobe took 13 shots, Shaq took 14. It wasn't the worst loss because Kobe alone barely shot, its also because Shaq barely shot. Difference being, Shaq was 7/14 and Kobe was 4/13. No amount of worn, tired excuses on your end is going to make that look any better. What's funny about your logic, you say the Lakers worst loss came when Kobe barely shot. Their only win occurred when both Kobe and Shaq had a great game. Malone and Payton weren't factors in that game. So that leads credence to the idea that Shaq and Kobe BOTH playing well gives the Lakers a punching chance in that series, even with Malone and Payton as non-factors the other role players would have better stepped up if their role wasn't relegated to standing around waiting for Kobe to treat them as last second bailout options. Role players need structure and being in some kind of offensive rhythm.

Look at these sequences:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fEbaO_rUqYI&t=39s&ab_channel=NobodyTouchesJordan

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3M0_X4HfxZQ

How many times is Kobe trying to shoot over Tayshawn Prince here and missing badly while the rest of the team stands there watching?

Furthermore, we have an immediate point of comparison the next year with a 2nd year Dwayne Wade playing better against the same Pistons team that Kobe struggled against and the Heat were actually were up 3-2 until he injured his wrist. That Heat team was also not deep in offensive talent yet they played the Pistons much better. Hell, in game 5 of that series the Heat won with Wade only scoring 15 points, Shaq had 20/5 so not like he had a dominant showing.

So again, someone shotjacking 25+ shot attempts at 38% can absolutely disrupt the flow of an offense. Kobe was more interested in trying to go Jordan mode and couldn't, while his lesser teammates stood around waiting to figure out if he was gonna try and shoot over double teams, beat Tayshawn Prince one on one or pass to them at the last minute once the clock has been exhausted. Of course the team is going to play like shit as a collective unde those conditions.

[Phoenix]

Also ImKobe, the Pistons beat the Heat 80-49 in offensive rebounds( since you mentioned them killing the Lakers in that category, the same holds true for the Heat series), including all three games Miami won. And also out-assisted them 147-114. And again, were down 3-2 until Wade got injured in game 6.

The Heat shot more free throws, because for starters Wade was actually attacking the heart of the defense instead of playing patty-cake on the perimeter.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cNtn7Z99Ztc&ab_channel=KentBlazemore

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_9-MrsN5vRw&ab_channel=currychou%28SCURRY30%29

This is 2nd year, pre-prime Wade here and Shaq a year further removed from his peak Laker days.

[ImKobe]

Also ImKobe, the Pistons beat the Heat 80-49 in offensive rebounds( since you mentioned them killing the Lakers in that category, the same holds true for the Heat series), including all three games Miami won. And also out-assisted them 147-114. And again, were down 3-2 until Wade got injured in game 6.

The Heat shot more free throws, because for starters Wade was actually attacking the heart of the defense instead of playing patty-cake on the perimeter.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cNtn7Z99Ztc&ab_channel=KentBlazemore

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_9-MrsN5vRw&ab_channel=currychou%28SCURRY30%29

This is 2nd year, pre-prime Wade here and Shaq a year further removed from his peak Laker days.

This is 2005, after they changed the rules which made it easier for perimeter players to get to the rim, benefiting players such as Wade and Kobe.. It's a poor argument.

Putting the 2004 series on one player is just people doing the classic Kobe hater trope, it's boring. He could've played better and they could've lost in 6 games instead sure, but they weren't winning the series with just 2 guys vs. an ATG defensive team that had 4-5 guys giving a good performance nightly.

[Phoenix]

This is 2005, after they changed the rules which made it easier for perimeter players to get to the rim, benefiting players such as Wade and Kobe.. It's a poor argument.

Putting the 2004 series on one player is just people doing the classic Kobe hater trope, it's boring. He could've played better and they could've lost in 6 games instead sure, but they weren't winning the series with just 2 guys vs. an ATG defensive team that had 4-5 guys giving a good performance nightly.

That seems like a pretty easy cop-out excuse to make, but Prince's defense on Kobe wasn't based on hand-checking to impede his path to the rim. He was mostly slightly sagging off him and then using his length to challenge his shots or try to funnel him into areas of the court where the defense could trap. The 2005 rule changes wouldn't have affected Princes individual defense, and it really started with him, so Kobe in 2005 would have largely employed the same strategy of trying to shoot over him and struggled, simply by virtue of being more jump-shot oriented than Wade. Yes, 2005 perimeter rules made it easier to attack the rim but Kobe had access to those same rules in the late 2000s and struggled against the same Celtics defense that Wade individually carved up, without anyone like Shaq to take the heat off. And ultimately, whether it was 2004 or 2005, Kobe and Wade faced the same wall of interior defense with the Wallace boys. Your well of excuses is mostly dried up.

Nobody is perfect. There's isn't a single player past or present that hasn't had a shit series or games. I saw Jordan go 3-18 against the Knicks in 93 and 9-35 against the Heat in 97. My fandom of players doesn't prevent me from calling out when they played like crap. It happens..... accept it and move on. Every fan of every player ever has to at some point.

[RRR3]

That seems like a pretty easy cop-out excuse to make, but Prince's defense on Kobe wasn't based on hand-checking to impede his path to the rim. He was mostly slightly sagging off him and then using his length to challenge his shots or try to funnel him into areas of the court where the defense could trap. The 2005 rule changes wouldn't have affected Princes individual defense, and it really started with him, so Kobe in 2005 would have largely employed the same strategy of trying to shoot over him and struggled, simply by virtue of being more jump-shot oriented than Wade. Yes, 2005 perimeter rules made it easier to attack the rim but Kobe had access to those same rules in the late 2000s and struggled against the same Celtics defense that Wade individually carved up, without anyone like Shaq to take the heat off. And ultimately, whether it was 2004 or 2005, Kobe and Wade faced the same wall of interior defense with the Wallace boys. Your well of excuses is mostly dried up.

Nobody is perfect. There's isn't a single player past or present that hasn't had a shit series or games. I saw Jordan go 3-18 against the Knicks in 93 and 9-35 against the Heat in 97. My fandom of players doesn't prevent me from calling out when they played like crap. It happens..... accept it and move on. Every fan of every player ever has to at some point.
Seriously imagine being so arrogant as to think your favorite player is incapable of playing like shit :lol Every player ever has had games where they embarrassed themselves. It's life.

[Phoenix]

Seriously imagine being so arrogant as to think your favorite player is incapable of playing like shit :lol Every player ever has had games where they embarrassed themselves. It's life.

When one is at the level where their entire forum persona is wrapped around one particular person, right down to the username, this is the net result. Blind, unwavering, and embarrassing levels of allegiance.

[Lebron23]

Tayshaun Prince shut down Kobe in that series

[gengiskhan]

Tayshaun Prince shut down Kobe in that series

definitely not the point.

All 25 yrs old Kobe with gifted 3-peat thanks to Shaq had to do is collect as many free assists as possible thru Shaq's 57%FG in 2004 Finals.

Kobe ball hogged to the tilt. Helped Prince plaster kobe to the ground like cartoon.

Prince aint that almighty defensively. Kobe's choking and ball hogging made him look all that great defensively.