Stockton says LeBrons titles don’t have value

[eliteballer]

https://www.yahoo.com/sports/article/top-75-nba-player-throws-175054096.html

[Full Court]

Stockton is spot on, and anyone with half a brain would agree with him.

The truth hurts. :confusedshrug:

[John8204]

Well he didn't say they have no value just that they have lesser value than guys that win with teams that drafted and built championships through the draft.

11 seasons in Cleveland - 1 title
7 seasons in Los Angeles - 1 title
4 seasons in Miami - 2 titles

It's not like he's Shaq or Durant who left championship caliber teams. He couldn't beat superteams in Cleveland and Miami dumped it's stars.

With that said I value the Reggie Millers and John Stocktons who stayed on the one team, competed every year didn't inflate their numbers and did everything they could to win. And if Giannis and Jokic stay in Denver and Milkwaulkee those single rings will have a lot of value the same way Bill Walton's Portland has a lot of value.

[Lebron23]

Coming from a guy who never won an NBA championship
. And he averaged 9.7 ppg in the 1998 NBA finals.

[ReturnofJPR]

Coming from a guy who never won an NBA championship
. And he averaged 9.7 ppg in the 1998 NBA finals.

Exactly

[John8204]

Coming from a guy who never won an NBA championship
. And he averaged 9.7 ppg in the 1998 NBA finals.

Which is what a fourth option should do, 19 times taking Utah to the playoffs. The Jazz without Stockton have made the playofts 12 times

[ImKobe]

Which is what a fourth option should do, 19 times taking Utah to the playoffs. The Jazz without Stockton have made the playofts 12 times

They had the most 50+ win seasons before the Duncan Spurs took that record IIRC. Insanely consistent career but the teams weren't quite good enough to beat MJ. If Stockton had been on the Knicks instead I feel like they would've broken through, Jazz didn't have a great enough defense in the 90s. They had some elite defenses in the late 80s but fell off from elite to barely top 10 to mediocre.

Stockton gets underrated as the years go on. He outplayed prime Magic when they faced each other in '88 and the Lakers won in 7, and if a couple plays went the other way they maybe would've won it all that year.

[1987_Lakers]

They had the most 50+ win seasons before the Duncan Spurs took that record IIRC. Insanely consistent career but the teams weren't quite good enough to beat MJ. If Stockton had been on the Knicks instead I feel like they would've broken through, Jazz didn't have a great enough defense in the 90s. They had some elite defenses in the late 80s but fell off from elite to barely top 10 to mediocre.

Stockton gets underrated as the years go on. He outplayed prime Magic when they faced each other in '88 and the Lakers won in 7, and if a couple plays went the other way they maybe would've won it all that year.

Stockton's career proves LeBron might be the GOAT.

Nobody even values Stockton's peak that much, but his longevity alone is the reason why I see him ranked over so many other point guards that you could say had better peaks. LeBron also had a GOAT level peak along with the longevity though.

[SouBeachTalents]

Stockton's career proves LeBron might be the GOAT.

Nobody even values Stockton's peak that much, but his longevity alone is the reason why I see him ranked over so many other point guards that you could say had better peaks. LeBron also had a GOAT level peak along with the longevity though.
Look at this RGM poll

https://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=2470826

Virtually nobody would say Stockton was better at his peak than CP3, yet he's decisively winning the poll 64-36.

[1987_Lakers]

Look at this RGM poll

https://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=2470826

Virtually nobody would say Stockton was better at his peak than CP3, yet he's decisively winning the poll 64-36.

lol, I saw that poll the other day.

[Chick Stern]

Bulls second threepeat titles have no value. Weak, watered down league, shit finals opponents.

[Mask the Embiid]

https://i.postimg.cc/fLnyT2nt/IMG-0828.jpg

[SouBeachTalents]

https://i.postimg.cc/fLnyT2nt/IMG-0828.jpg
That's actually insane for a guy who won 17 playoff series in his career. including 5 trips to the conference finals and two Finals.

[j3lademaster]

Look at this RGM poll

https://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=2470826

Virtually nobody would say Stockton was better at his peak than CP3, yet he's decisively winning the poll 64-36.

Stockton doesn’t even have longevity on cp3 at this point.

[tpols]

https://i.postimg.cc/fLnyT2nt/IMG-0828.jpg

Stockton also has a better playoff +/- vs the Western Conference than Lebron James. Think about that...

West was brutal back then because superstars and players in general... all played. If you look at any Barkley Robinson Hakeem Clyde Malone Stockton run there all just brutal gauntlets against each other.

Kinda makes me think MJ got off a little easy. In the East who did he have to deal with? Pat Ewing and Reggie. The West was tougher. It was more of a gauntlet.

[SouBeachTalents]

Stockton also has a better playoff +/- vs the Western Conference than Lebron James. Think about that...

West was brutal back then because superstars and players in general... all played. If you look at any Barkley Robinson Hakeem Clyde Malone Stockton run there all just brutal gauntlets against each other.

Kinda makes me think MJ got off a little easy. In the East who did he have to deal with? Pat Ewing and Reggie. The West was tougher. It was more of a gauntlet.
Stockton was obviously better than LeBron. Like Kidd.

[Full Court]

Look at this RGM poll

https://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=2470826

Virtually nobody would say Stockton was better at his peak than CP3, yet he's decisively winning the poll 64-36.

There's no intelligent case for CP over Stockton. None.

[SouBeachTalents]

There's no intelligent case for CP over Stockton. None.
OK

[John8204]

https://i.postimg.cc/fLnyT2nt/IMG-0828.jpg

Playoff record without John Stockton for the Jazz 38-54

[3ba11]

.
Regular Season

Hornacek (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/h/hornaje01.html)'.... 17.7 PER.. 2.9 bpm.. 0.153 ws/48.. 42.1 vorp.. 15/3/5 on 58.2 ts
Klay (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/t/thompkl01.html)............ 16.4 PER.. 0.7 bpm.. 0.110 ws/48.. 14.4 vorp.. 19/3/2 on 57.5 ts


Playoffs

Hornacek (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/h/hornaje01.html)'.... 16.5 PER.. 3.1 bpm.. 0.145 ws/48.. 14.1 vorp.. 15/4/4 on 57.5 ts
Klay (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/t/thompkl01.html)............ 14.4 PER.. 0.7 bpm.. 0.091 ws/48.... 3.1 vorp.. 19/3/2 on 56.0 ts

[3ba11]

Stockton was considered better than Isiah in the late 80's and early 90's, so the Stockton/Malone duo was like Isiah/Duncan - a juggernaut - and they had a 3rd option in Hornacek that was a much bigger producer than Klay across the board (previous post).. So the Jazz were loaded, which is why they swept Shaq's 4 all-star Lakers and Duncan/Popovich/Robinson in 1998.

[ELITEpower23]

Stockton is a mega retard like OP.

[1987_Lakers]

There's no intelligent case for CP over Stockton. None.

:oldlol:

[Full Court]

There's no intelligent case for CP over Stockton. None.


:oldlol:

^Case in point. That's the most intelligent response Dudley has. :lol

[ShawkFactory]

There's no intelligent case for CP over Stockton. None.

Lol. There most certainly is.

[Phoenix]

The GOAT two PGs are Magic and Curry. You can pick the weeds out of Isiah, Stockton, Kidd, CP3 and Nash as far as arbitrary rankings go. Most recent bleacher list has Isiah 27th,Stockton 29th, CP3 30th, Kidd 33rd, and Nash at 35th. Big fukking whoop....they're on the same tier and how they're ranked depends on what side of the bed the voter rolled out of or if they got some the night before.

[SouBeachTalents]

The GOAT two PGs are Magic and Curry. You can pick the weeds out of Isiah, Stockton, Kidd, CP3 and Nash as far as arbitrary rankings go. Most recent bleacher list has Isiah 27th,Stockton 29th, CP3 30th, Kidd 33rd, and Nash at 35th. Big fukking whoop....they're on the same tier and how they're ranked depends on what side of the bed they rolled out of or if they got some the night before.
There's no intelligent case for CP over Stockton. None.

[1987_Lakers]

^Case in point. That's the most intelligent response Dudley has. :lol

You didn't put up an intelligent case for Stockton over CP3, why bother?

It's funny you put Stockton over CP3 considering you always say you value prime over longevity. Stockton only made 2 First All-NBA Teams compared to CP3's 4 (CP3 was also competing with Wade & Kobe to make the team). CP3 has five seasons where he finished top 5 in NBA MVP voting whereas Stockton has zero.

You just proved LeBron's case as the GOAT if you are taking Stockton.

[Phoenix]

I was just looking up CP3 and Stockton's career accolades myself. CP3 at his peak was actually considered a legit top 5-6 player. He was definitely top 10, I can't see any argument for him not being in the worst case. Stockton over his entire peak and prime, you could argue there were at least 10 guys over him. In the late 80s MJ, Magic, Bird, Barkley, Hakeem, Malone, Ewing, Drexler, Isiah, Mullin, Nique, then you could even throw in guys like Chambers, Worthy, KJ as being at least on his tier. In the early-mid 90s Magic/Bird drop off from retirement, Isiah leaves his prime and retires, Mullin and Nique fall off, but then Pippen ascends, Robinson and Shaq come in, KJ and Price are basically on the same level, Penny comes in, Grant Hill comes in, Payton hits his prime. I don't think there's a point where Stockton was ever a definitive top 10 player, as opposed to other GOAT level PGs who were all top 10 players at their peaks( some going as high as winning multiple MVP awards) or at least managing top 5 MVP finishes.

[beasted]

You didn't put up an intelligent case for Stockton over CP3, why bother?

It's funny you put Stockton over CP3 considering you always say you value prime over longevity. Stockton only made 2 First All-NBA Teams compared to CP3's 4 (CP3 was also competing with Wade & Kobe to make the team). CP3 has five seasons where he finished top 5 in NBA MVP voting whereas Stockton has zero.

You just proved LeBron's case as the GOAT if you are taking Stockton.

CP has been the leader of multiple choke jobs, and been totally absent when his team needed him (whether it's for health or not is irrelevant for me).

I think they are relatively even, but if I had to pick one, it's Stockton because he was tough as nails. CP3 is a flopping, brittle tyrant

[1987_Lakers]

CP has been the leader of multiple choke jobs, and been totally absent when his team needed him (whether it's for health or not is irrelevant for me).

I think they are relatively even, but if I had to pick one, it's Stockton because he was tough as nails. CP3 is a flopping, brittle tyrant

I've always been impressed by how he was able to transform teams upon his arrival.

- Made the Clippers relevant again.

- Rockets won 67 games the year they got him

- Somehow got OKC to the playoffs when expectations were low

- Helped Phoenix make the Finals

All these teams were worse without him. I also remember that one year he hit a game winner to knock the Spurs out of the playoffs, injuries unfortunately were always an issue and often came at the worst possible time.

With that said, when both were in their prime and healthy, CP3 was superior than Stockton, not even a debate.

[Carbine]

CP3 in and around his peak was universally a top 5 guy. Arguments for top 3.

Stockton was never that guy. As great as he was, never seen on that type of level.

[Baller234]

I'll just say this.

Growing up, with my own eyes, I thought Kidd and Nash were better than Stockton. They were the nucleus and the center of gravity for their teams and they did it without having a superstar scorer. I know Nash had Amare but when Amare went down in 06 the team barely missed a beat.

Point being, I think both Kidd and Nash could have thrived on the Jazz if they played with Malone for 15+ seasons. I don't think Stockton thrives the same on either the Nets or the Suns. He's still a great player, but I don't think the teams are reaching those same heights. Who knows maybe he could, I'm just telling you my opinion.

But I have to say, when Paul first broke onto the scene and made his name on the Hornets, my eyes told me he was better than them all.

[j3lademaster]

I’m taking Stockton over Cp3 because he’s more reliable, but both healthy Paul is easily better.

[Phoenix]

CP3 in and around his peak was universally a top 5 guy. Arguments for top 3.

Stockton was never that guy. As great as he was, never seen on that type of level.

Exactly, and there seems to be some revisionist history like he was, but as usual it's by those pushing agendas. Not only was he never really a top 10 player, there were periods where he wasn't even definitively the best PG even after Magic retired and Isiah fell off. Guys like KJ, Tim Hardaway and Mark Price were all neck and neck with him in the early 90s, to his credit Stockton outlasted them all but you'd think he was some MVP level player at some point, based on the discourse around here.




Point being, I think both Kidd and Nash could have thrived on the Jazz if they played with Malone for 15+ seasons. I don't think Stockton thrives the same on either the Nets or the Suns. He's still a great player, but I don't think the teams are reaching those same heights. Who knows maybe he could, I'm just telling you my opinion.



I've long been a proponent that early 90's Mark Price on that Jazz team could have gotten to the finals. He was deadly himself in the PNR but unlike Stockton, he actually could break a game open with his scoring/shooting so you would have had to really account for him looking for his offense as much as passing off to Mailman.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jivYXYIJk_k&ab_channel=Precision80

[beasted]

I've always been impressed by how he was able to transform teams upon his arrival.

- Made the Clippers relevant again.

- Rockets won 67 games the year they got him

- Somehow got OKC to the playoffs when expectations were low

- Helped Phoenix make the Finals

All these teams were worse without him. I also remember that one year he hit a game winner to knock the Spurs out of the playoffs, injuries unfortunately were always an issue and often came at the worst possible time.

With that said, when both were in their prime and healthy, CP3 was superior than Stockton, not even a debate.

Chris Paul collapses:

2008 Western Conference Semifinals: The New Orleans Hornets, led by Paul, lost in seven games to the San Antonio Spurs after being up 2-0 and having home court advantage.

2013 First Round: The Los Angeles Clippers lost in six games to the Memphis Grizzlies after holding a 2-0 series lead.

2015 Western Conference Semifinals: The Clippers lost in seven games to the Houston Rockets, famously collapsing after being up 3-1 in the series.

2016 First Round: The Clippers were up 2-0 against the Portland Trail Blazers but lost in six games. While Paul was injured in Game 4, this series is still often mentioned in discussions of his playoff struggles with leads.

2021 NBA Finals: The Phoenix Suns, with home court advantage, lost in six games to the Milwaukee Bucks after taking a 2-0 series lead.

John Stockton collapse:

1995 Playoffs: The Jazz blew a 2-1 lead with home-court advantage against the Houston Rockets and were eliminated in the first round

[Phoenix]

John Stockton collapse:

1995 Playoffs: The Jazz blew a 2-1 lead with home-court advantage against the Houston Rockets and were eliminated in the first round

1989 Playoffs: The 2nd seeded Jazz got swept by the 7th seeded Warriors

1990 Playoffs: The 4th seeded Jazz lose to the 5th seeded Suns

1992 Playoffs: Terry Porter takes a massive shit on Stockton enroute to the Blazers winning the series

1993 Playoffs: The Jazz go up 2-1 on the Sonics and lose in 5( could have closed it out in game 4 in Utah)

2001 Playoffs: The 4th seeded Jazz go up 2-0 on the 5th seeded Mavs, then proceed to lose the series.

[beasted]

1989 Playoffs: The 2nd seeded Jazz got swept by the 7th seeded Warriors

1990 Playoffs: The 4th seeded Jazz lose to the 5th seeded Suns

1992 Playoffs: Terry Porter takes a massive shit on Stockton enroute to the Blazers winning the series

1993 Playoffs: The Jazz go up 2-1 on the Sonics and lose in 5( could have closed it out in game 4 in Utah)

2001 Playoffs: The 4th seeded Jazz go up 2-0 on the 5th seeded Mavs, then proceed to lose the series.
I only included examples when CP lost with home court advantage and were up early. You including examples such as the Blazers (#1) beating the Jazz (#2), or Sonics beating the Jazz the following year, this can go really badly for CP getting destroyed given the number of 3-1 collapses alone. When talking about who has been on the end of worse colapses, there's likely no NBA great in a worse position than CP.

And 2001? Really guy? Helluva reach.

[Phoenix]

I only included examples when CP lost with home court advantage and were up early. You including examples such as the Blazers (#1) beating the Jazz (#2), or Sonics beating the Jazz the following year, this can go really badly for CP getting destroyed given the number of 3-1 collapses alone. When talking about who has been on the end of worse colapses, there's likely no NBA great in a worse position than CP.

And 2001? Really guy? Helluva reach.

Ok well even playing by your rules, the Jazz with HCA got swept in 89. Malone was first team all-NBA and Stockton 2nd. I'd say that's a monumental collapse. I also included the Blazers/Jazz series because Stockton got destroyed by Terry Porter. You're using the term 'Chris Paul' and 'John Stockton' collapses. So if you're assigning personal accountability to team results, then bringing up that Porter massively outplayed Stockton and that probably played a major role in the series outcome is fair game.

As for 2001, yes really 'guy'. Why is he discounted that year? Because he was 39? Paul was 36 in 2021, not exactly in his prime either. John was the starting PG playing 37 minutes a night and averaged 10/11 in that series. The Jazz went up 2-0 in a 5 game series, if he was a part of the first two wins then why is he excused from the final three losses?

[Full Court]

You didn't put up an intelligent case for Stockton over CP3, why bother?

It's funny you put Stockton over CP3 considering you always say you value prime over longevity. Stockton only made 2 First All-NBA Teams compared to CP3's 4 (CP3 was also competing with Wade & Kobe to make the team). CP3 has five seasons where he finished top 5 in NBA MVP voting whereas Stockton has zero.

You just proved LeBron's case as the GOAT if you are taking Stockton.

Lol. You put up a terrible argument. 3 of the 4 All NBA First Teams he got selected for were 2012-2014. Kobe was way past his prime by then. And in 2008, which was CP's other year, as well as 2012, Kobe was also All NBA First Team. So it's a disingenuous argument. You can't fool Full Court though.

Other people during that time period getting the All NBA nod over Wade were players like Tony Parker. Surely that means Parker is better than Wade, right? It's like saying "Tatum got All NBA First Team over Lebron James. BOOM! Tatum is better." Yeahhhhh, slow down there turbo man. LeShrivel was like 40 years old. Fact is, both Stockton and CP3 had 11 All NBA Team selections. And Stockton spent a good portion of his career getting All NBA Second Team behind......Magic. Yeah, in no universe does CP3 get the nod over Magic either.

The '92 Dream Team was considered the best team ever to step on the court. There was nobody trying to say that Stockton didn't belong on it. Behind Magic, he was the best PG in the world at the time.

[RRR3]

Ok well even playing by your rules, the Jazz with HCA got swept in 89. Malone was first team all-NBA and Stockton 2nd. I'd say that's a monumental collapse. I also included the Blazers/Jazz series because Stockton got destroyed by Terry Porter. You're using the term 'Chris Paul' and 'John Stockton' collapses. So if you're assigning personal accountability to team results, then bringing up that Porter massively outplayed Stockton and that probably played a major role in the series outcome is fair game.

As for 2001, yes really 'guy'. Why is he discounted that year? Because he was 39? Paul was 36 in 2021, not exactly in his prime either. John was the starting PG playing 37 minutes a night and averaged 10/11 in that series. The Jazz went up 2-0 in a 5 game series, if he was a part of the first two wins then why is he excused from the final three losses?
:applause::applause::applause:

[beasted]

Ok well even playing by your rules, the Jazz with HCA got swept in 89. Malone was first team all-NBA and Stockton 2nd. I'd say that's a monumental collapse. I also included the Blazers/Jazz series because Stockton got destroyed by Terry Porter. You're using the term 'Chris Paul' and 'John Stockton' collapses. So if you're assigning personal accountability to team results, then bringing up that Porter massively outplayed Stockton and that probably played a major role in the series outcome is fair game.

As for 2001, yes really 'guy'. Why is he discounted that year? Because he was 39? Paul was 36 in 2021, not exactly in his prime either. John was the starting PG playing 37 minutes a night and averaged 10/11 in that series. The Jazz went up 2-0 in a 5 game series, if he was a part of the first two wins then why is he excused from the final three losses?
Like I said, if we want to start counting the series that either guy was outplayed by an opponent on the way to losing, or lost (even when whey had no business being up against a better team) after a headstart regardless of seeding, but in collapse fashion (2 game lead), or lost in fashion (sweep or gentlemen sweep) CP3 will lose this by a country mile.

CP3 has memes made of his stupid shocked loss look since it is so common.

[1987_Lakers]

Lol. You put up a terrible argument. 3 of the 4 All NBA First Teams he got selected for were 2012-2014. Kobe was way past his prime by then. And in 2008, which was CP's other year, as well as 2012, Kobe was also All NBA First Team. So it's a disingenuous argument. You can't fool Full Court though.

Other people during that time period getting the All NBA nod over Wade were players like Tony Parker. Surely that means Parker is better than Wade, right? It's like saying "Tatum got All NBA First Team over Lebron James. BOOM! Tatum is better." Yeahhhhh, slow down there turbo man. LeShrivel was like 40 years old. Fact is, both Stockton and CP3 had 11 All NBA Team selections. And Stockton spent a good portion of his career getting All NBA Second Team behind......Magic. Yeah, in no universe does CP3 get the nod over Magic either.

The '92 Dream Team was considered the best team ever to step on the court. There was nobody trying to say that Stockton didn't belong on it. Behind Magic, he was the best PG in the world at the time.

What? Even though I felt he deserved to be on it, you must have missed the countless debates between media and fans saying Isiah should have been on the team over Stockton.

Stockton in his prime was missing All-NBA First Team to guys like Mark Price. There was one year where he made 3rd team while Kevin Johnson made 2nd. Even when Magic was retired guys like Penny & GP were selected to All-NBA Teams over Stockton. This was all in Stockton's prime too. Nobody was labeling Stockton a superstar, it is his longevity as to why he is ranked so high, this is pretty well known to any NBA fan as well.

Stockton never had to carry a team the way CP3 did, CP3 had more to his game, he could score at a much better rate than Stockton, finished 2nd in MVP voting one season behind Kobe, & made All-NBA First Team over Curry one year who was just entering his prime, are you gonna sit there with a straight face and tell me Stockton was capable of doing that? :oldlol:

Nobody in their right mind is taking prime Stockton over prime CP3.

[RRR3]

Stockton was a sidekick, giving him credit for his playoff series in comparison CP3's series as the lead guy is disingenuous af. His stats also went down a fair bit in the playoffs, he went from 60.8 TS% to 56.8 TS% regular season to playoffs. CP3 actually is more efficient in the playoffs, 58.3 TS% to 58.1% in the regular season. And he did it on higher volume by a good amount. I think most people agree CP3 was a better defender too? Like what is Stockton's argument besides passing, which is probably debatable anyways? We aren't comparing CP3 to some top 5 guy here, we're comparing him to John Stockton, the bar is not THAT high.

[Full Court]

What? Even though I felt he deserved to be on it, you must have missed the countless debates between media and fans saying Isiah should have been on the team over Stockton.

Stockton in his prime was missing All-NBA First Team to guys like Mark Price. There was one year where he made 3rd team while Kevin Johnson made 2nd. Even when Magic was retired guys like Penny & GP were selected to All-NBA Teams over Stockton. This was all in Stockton's prime too. Nobody was labeling Stockton a superstar, it is his longevity as to why he is ranked so high, this is pretty well known to any NBA fan as well.

Stockton never had to carry a team the way CP3 did, CP3 had more to his game, he could score at a much better rate than Stockton, finished 2nd in MVP voting one season behind Kobe, & made All-NBA First Team over Curry one year who was just entering his prime, are you gonna sit there with a straight face and tell me Stockton was capable of doing that? :oldlol:

Nobody in their right mind is taking prime Stockton over prime CP3.

Are you going to try to pretend that Payton, Penny, and KJ are scrubs or something? Gary Payton had a better peak than Chris Paul, and I'd probably take '95/'96 Penny over Chris Paul too.

[RRR3]

Are you going to try to pretend that Payton, Penny, and KJ are scrubs or something? Gary Payton had a better peak than Chris Paul, and I'd probably take '95/'96 Penny over Chris Paul too.
https://i.pinimg.com/originals/e8/33/de/e833de1df34cf8a9bd715d4bb486a6c8.gif

[1987_Lakers]

Are you going to try to pretend that Payton, Penny, and KJ are scrubs or something? Gary Payton had a better peak than Chris Paul, and I'd probably take '95/'96 Penny over Chris Paul too.

Yeah, this is wrong on so many levels. There is nothing Penny did better than CP3 besides finishing at the rim, CP3 was a superior shooter, defender, & a better playmaker. And I happen to believe GP is kind of overrated, CP3 destroys him as an offensive player and I believe his defensive impact is overstated.

Again, do you see a prime Stockton finishing 2nd in MVP voting behind Kobe and making an All-NBA First Team over Curry?

[beasted]

Stockton was a sidekick, giving him credit for his playoff series in comparison CP3's series as the lead guy is disingenuous af. His stats also went down a fair bit in the playoffs, he went from 60.8 TS% to 56.8 TS% regular season to playoffs. CP3 actually is more efficient in the playoffs, 58.3 TS% to 58.1% in the regular season. And he did it on higher volume by a good amount. I think most people agree CP3 was a better defender too? Like what is Stockton's argument besides passing, which is probably debatable anyways? We aren't comparing CP3 to some top 5 guy here, we're comparing him to John Stockton, the bar is not THAT high.

Not sure this is a measurement that is realistic. Are you suggesting that if CP3 and Malone were on the same team that CP3 would be the first option and Malone would be the sidekick?

All-time record low IQ take if so.

[RRR3]

Not sure this is a measurement that is realistic. Are you suggesting that if CP3 and Malone were on the same team that CP3 would be the first option and Malone would be the sidekick?

All-time record low IQ take if so.
No but I am suggesting CP3 wins more series if he has Karl Malone for his entire career instead of years of mid. Giving Stockton credit for series he won as the second best player and saying "see this proves he's better than series CP3 lost as the team's best player" doesn't make any sense.

[Full Court]

Yeah, this is wrong on so many levels. There is nothing Penny did better than CP3 besides finishing at the rim, CP3 was a superior shooter, defender, & a better playmaker. And I happen to believe GP is kind of overrated, CP3 destroys him as an offensive player and I believe his defensive impact is overstated.

Again, do you see a prime Stockton finishing 2nd in MVP voting behind Kobe and making an All-NBA First Team over Curry?

All NBA team selections are an interesting data point, but hardly definitive. There are anomalies, such as the Mark Price one you mentioned. Surely you don't think Mark Price has a better peak than Stockton? And if not, then you just have a really weak argument.

And I happen to believe that GP is kind of underrated.

[Full Court]

Not sure this is a measurement that is realistic. Are you suggesting that if CP3 and Malone were on the same team that CP3 would be the first option and Malone would be the sidekick?

All-time record low IQ take if so.

You have to keep in mind that RRR3 is known as one of the absolute dumbest posters on this board. So low IQ takes from him are expected.

[RRR3]

All NBA team selections are an interesting data point, but hardly definitive. There are anomalies, such as the Mark Price one you mentioned. Surely you don't think Mark Price has a better peak than Stockton? And if not, then you just have a really weak argument.

And I happen to believe that GP is kind of underrated.
Payton didn't have close to the offensive impact of Paul. 8.4 career RAPM for CP3 to 2.1 for Payton (admittedly missing some of his prime but still), 1987 is right, the stats show CP3 is a tier above.

[1987_Lakers]

All NBA team selections are an interesting data point, but hardly definitive. There are anomalies, such as the Mark Price one you mentioned. Surely you don't think Mark Price has a better peak than Stockton? And if not, then you just have a really weak argument.

And I happen to believe that GP is kind of underrated.

Mark Price's peak wasn't too far off Stockton's to be honest. I'd probably go Stockton, but Price's offensive game was so damn smooth, better scorer and shooter than Stockton & anchored some top tier offensive teams.

But you keep dodging the only question that is relevant. Does prime Stockton finish 2nd in MVP voting behind Kobe & make an All-NBA First Team over Curry?

[1987_Lakers]

1989 Playoffs: The 2nd seeded Jazz got swept by the 7th seeded Warriors

1990 Playoffs: The 4th seeded Jazz lose to the 5th seeded Suns

1992 Playoffs: Terry Porter takes a massive shit on Stockton enroute to the Blazers winning the series

1993 Playoffs: The Jazz go up 2-1 on the Sonics and lose in 5( could have closed it out in game 4 in Utah)

2001 Playoffs: The 4th seeded Jazz go up 2-0 on the 5th seeded Mavs, then proceed to lose the series.

I almost forgot about this. I remember watching some of that series over 10 years ago, Porter was damn near unstoppable, better than Drexler. Stockton himself layed an egg, didn't do much.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fc4SxdYmIu0

Porter & Price don't get talked about enough.

[Full Court]

Mark Price's peak wasn't too far off Stockton's to be honest. I'd probably go Stockton, but Price's offensive game was so damn smooth, better scorer and shooter than Stockton & anchored some top tier offensive teams.

But you keep dodging the only question that is relevant. Does prime Stockton finish 2nd in MVP voting behind Kobe & make an All-NBA First Team over Curry?

Again, this is just a weak argument. All NBA selections, and MVP selections for that matter are rarely without controversy, and many times first, second, and third All NBA selections are close enough to be interchangeable.

So who knows, Stockton may have gotten a nod over Curry. I mean, Curry got completely screwed out of Olympic MVP last year. You can't deny that there are politics involved in these awards that are voted on.

[RRR3]

The best Stockton finished ever? 7th in MVP voting. CP3 has done that NINE times, top 5 5 times, and top 3 twice. It's clear who was considered the higher ranked player relative to the league they played in. Not to mention CP3 is actually better playoff performer, Stockton's stats dropped quite a bit in the playoffs. Stockton wasn't some clutch performer.

[1987_Lakers]

Again, this is just a weak argument. All NBA selections, and MVP selections for that matter are rarely without controversy, and many times first, second, and third All NBA selections are close enough to be interchangeable.

So who knows, Stockton may have gotten a nod over Curry. I mean, Curry got completely screwed out of Olympic MVP last year. You can't deny that there are politics involved in these awards that are voted on.

Yea, this is cop out BS, I actually remember the 2008 race and Kobe & CP3 were neck and neck for much of the year. Kobe finally won most of the voters when the Lakers beat CP3 in the 80th game of the year in April. CP3 probably wins MVP if the Hornets beat the Lakers that game and finish with a better record than the Lakers.

The only time Stockton would be neck and neck with peak Kobe in an MVP race is in someone's dream. :lol

[Phoenix]

Like I said, if we want to start counting the series that either guy was outplayed by an opponent on the way to losing, or lost (even when whey had no business being up against a better team) after a headstart regardless of seeding, but in collapse fashion (2 game lead), or lost in fashion (sweep or gentlemen sweep) CP3 will lose this by a country mile.

CP3 has memes made of his stupid shocked loss look since it is so common.

No, 'we' don't want to do anything. 'Your' premise is basically who 'failed better' between two guys who never won anything. Both have series where they were ahead and lost, whether it be with or without HCA. I dont even think the two of them are apples to apples in terms of responsibilities because prime CP3 had a bigger role as a scorer as well as playmaking.

But to be clear, I actually do have Stockton over CP3 all time because of his longevity, consistency and career milestones( all time leader in assists and steals). But they are on the same tier. As a player head to head on both sides of the ball? To me CP3 is better. The reason I replied to you in the first place wasn't to say who warranted being ranked over whom, it's because you played it like Stockton only has one point of playoff collapse centered around your specific criteria, which is bullshit. You clearly went to reasonable lengths to research their playoff careers, so you would have seen the 2nd seed Jazz being swept by the 7th seeded Warriors in 89, and chose not to include it because you weren't interested in being remotely objective. Ditto for Porter handing him his ass head to head in 92. Your curated list of 'collapses' isn't the only scenarios that warrant discussion if you want to start nitpicking their playoff failures.

[tpols]

No but I am suggesting CP3 wins more series if he has Karl Malone for his entire career instead of years of mid. Giving Stockton credit for series he won as the second best player and saying "see this proves he's better than series CP3 lost as the team's best player" doesn't make any sense.

Given how hard CP3 has choked and how fragile hes been in the playoffs thats far from a certainty. Actually he'd probably win less in the playoffs given that and the loaded playoff comp the Jazz faced.

[Phoenix]

I almost forgot about this. I remember watching some of that series over 10 years ago, Porter was damn near unstoppable, better than Drexler. Stockton himself layed an egg, didn't do much.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fc4SxdYmIu0

Porter & Price don't get talked about enough.

Nope, especially Price. He's a footnote when talking about 90s stars but as someone who grew up a Bulls fan, I saw plenty of matchups against the Cavs and he was absolutely a giant pain in the ass to deal with. He was a more than capable passer in his own right( not Stockton level), had underrated quickness and handles, and a deadly shooter. He was the first 'marksman' PG I remember seeing in that Nash/Curry mold( of course those two took that to the next level years later).

[Full Court]

Yea, this is cop out BS, I actually remember the 2008 race and Kobe & CP3 were neck and neck for much of the year. Kobe finally won most of the voters when the Lakers beat CP3 in the 80th game of the year in April. CP3 probably wins MVP if the Hornets beat the Lakers that game and finish with a better record than the Lakers.

The only time Stockton would be neck and neck with peak Kobe in an MVP race is in someone's dream. :lol

It's a cop out from you. If your only case for CP being better is that he has more All NBA Firsts, especially when they have the same amount of total All NBA teams, and especially when Stockton was playing with Magic, then you've got nothing. Nada.

[1987_Lakers]

It's a cop out from you. If your only case for CP being better is that he has more All NBA Firsts, especially when they have the same amount of total All NBA teams, and especially when Stockton was playing with Magic, then you've got nothing. Nada.

I've basically named several points as to why CP3 was better, you on the other hand can't make any points as to why Stockton was better in his prime, basically everyone in this thread thinks you are wrong. You got nothing.

[1987_Lakers]

The '92 Dream Team was considered the best team ever to step on the court. There was nobody trying to say that Stockton didn't belong on it.

Let's not forget this statement, get a clue.:lol


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OKEfmCSBNHc


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RMbHvc7ymh0

[Lebron23]

Chris Paul is better than John Stockton
Prime Chris Paul is better than Prime John Stockton who averaged 9.7 ppg in the 1998 Finals. 12.8 ppg, .8 apg, 2.3 rpg in two NBA finals appearances. CP3 averaged 21.8 ppg, and 8.2 apg in the 2021 NBA Finals. Stockton is also never been a top 5 mvp candidate in his entire NBA career. Chris Paul finished 2nd in MVP voting behind Kobe in 2008. And in their best statistical season CP3 is also better you put CP3 with Karl Malone they would be winning multiple rings in the 1990's. CP3 also have more all NBA all star appearances, more all NBA first team, same numbers of all NBA team selection. Better defensive player (7x all NBA defensive first team, 0 all nba first team Stockton. CP3 9 all NBA defensive team team compared to Stockton's 5x all NBA defensive team selection. CP3 is also the better Better offensive player. They are both in the same tier as a passer with Stockton eclipcing him in durability. Best Statistical Season 2008 Chris Paul 22.8 ppg, 11 apg 2.8 spg. John Stockton 1990. 17.5 ppg 14.8 apg. 2.7 apg. Career stats CP3 17 ppg 9.2 rpg 4.4 rpg, 2.0 spg. John Stockton 13 ppg 10.5 apg, 2.2 rpg, playoffs Chris Paul 20.1 ppg, 8.3 apg, 4.9 rpg, 1.9 spg, John Stockton 13 ppg, 10 apg, 3.3 rpg 1.9 spg

[SouBeachTalents]

Chris Paul is better than John Stockton
Prime Chris Paul is better than Prime John Stockton who averaged 9.7 ppg in the 1998 Finals. 12.8 ppg, .8 apg, 2.3 rpg in two NBA finals appearances. CP3 averaged 21.8 ppg, and 8.2 apg in the 2021 NBA Finals. Stockton is also never been a top 5 mvp candidate in his entire NBA career. Chris Paul finished 2nd in MVP voting behind Kobe in 2008. And in their best statistical season CP3 is also better you put CP3 with Karl Malone they would be winning multiple rings in the 1990's. CP3 also have more all NBA all star appearances, more all NBA first team, same numbers of all NBA team selection. Better defensive player (7x all NBA defensive first team, 0 all nba first team Stockton. CP3 9 all NBA defensive team team compared to Stockton's 5x all NBA defensive team selection. CP3 is also the better Better offensive player. They are both in the same tier as a passer with Stockton eclipcing him in durability. Best Statistical Season 2008 Chris Paul 22.8 ppg, 11 apg 2.8 spg. John Stockton 1990. 17.5 ppg 14.8 apg. 2.7 apg. Career stats CP3 17 ppg 9.2 rpg 4.4 rpg, 2.0 spg. John Stockton 13 ppg 10.5 apg, 2.2 rpg, playoffs Chris Paul 20.1 ppg, 8.3 apg, 4.9 rpg, 1.9 spg, John Stockton 13 ppg, 10 apg, 3.3 rpg 1.9 spg
Perfectly put.

[Tavr]

I don't think you can use the argument "player x was top 10 in 1993 whereas player z was barely top 10 in 2015". Two completely different eras. :lol I mean, why pretend a top 10 is static.

Paul was the better player overall because of his scoring. Its really that simple. Stockton could also score (checkout that playoff series he had vs Golden State), but too often he was passive. When a defense got tight and you needed a go-to scorer, CP3 would regularly fill that void. Its no surprise he's had a handful of playoff series averaging ~25ppg.

[beasted]

No, 'we' don't want to do anything. 'Your' premise is basically who 'failed better' between two guys who never won anything. Both have series where they were ahead and lost, whether it be with or without HCA. I dont even think the two of them are apples to apples in terms of responsibilities because prime CP3 had a bigger role as a scorer as well as playmaking.

But to be clear, I actually do have Stockton over CP3 all time because of his longevity, consistency and career milestones( all time leader in assists and steals). But they are on the same tier. As a player head to head on both sides of the ball? To me CP3 is better. The reason I replied to you in the first place wasn't to say who warranted being ranked over whom, it's because you played it like Stockton only has one point of playoff collapse centered around your specific criteria, which is bullshit. You clearly went to reasonable lengths to research their playoff careers, so you would have seen the 2nd seed Jazz being swept by the 7th seeded Warriors in 89, and chose not to include it because you weren't interested in being remotely objective. Ditto for Porter handing him his ass head to head in 92. Your curated list of 'collapses' isn't the only scenarios that warrant discussion if you want to start nitpicking their playoff failures.
You overstate my effort. I honestly don't care that much to purposely omit anything, I'm just more familiar with Paul's failures.

[Phoenix]

You overstate my effort. I honestly don't care that much to purposely omit anything, I'm just more familiar with Paul's failures.

It was no more effort on my end to point out your omissions, but I'm glad you're now more informed on the matter.

[Axe]

I see braindead casuals out here who are obsessed with a perfect finals record trying to prop up a plumber or car mechanic who went 0-2 in the finals in his whole career. At least cp3 only lost one.

[Full Court]

Not surprised at all that the consensus dumbest (not to mention stinkiest) poster on ISH would pick the CP3 over Stockton.

Typical low IQ take from biggest loser on ISH. :confusedshrug:

[Axe]

I've basically named several points as to why CP3 was better, you on the other hand can't make any points as to why Stockton was better in his prime, basically everyone in this thread thinks you are wrong. You got nothing.


Let's not forget this statement, get a clue.:lol


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OKEfmCSBNHc


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RMbHvc7ymh0
https://c.tenor.com/ZQ6SDX4dBEUAAAAC/tenor.gif (https://i.ibb.co/JmpGnKz/IMG-20230528-095117.jpg)

[sdot_thadon]

https://c.tenor.com/ZQ6SDX4dBEUAAAAC/tenor.gif (https://i.ibb.co/JmpGnKz/IMG-20230528-095117.jpg)

Gotta keep in mind you guys are arguing with a dude who never watched Stockton play.

[Full Court]

Yep, it's time for stink Axe's


BITCH FIT.


:roll: And won TWO biggest loser on ISH polls.

:yaohappy:

[Axe]

Gotta keep in mind you guys are arguing with a dude who never watched Stockton play.
I completely agree with you, sdot. (https://i.ibb.co/g4tnXnv/IMG-20230626-052542.jpg)

[Full Court]

I completely agree with you, sdot. (https://i.ibb.co/g4tnXnv/IMG-20230626-052542.jpg)

Have you ever seen Lebron play? If you had, then you would know that he has the MOST CHOKE JOB OF ALL TIME!!!

:lebronamazed:

Must suck being a Bronie fluffer, huh?

:roll:

[1987_Lakers]

Let's not forget this statement, get a clue.:lol


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OKEfmCSBNHc


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RMbHvc7ymh0

Full court had no response.

Bron fam wins again.

[3ba11]

If Pippen ever dominated the sitting MVP to win a Finals, MJ wouldn't be considered goat.

The reason he's considered goat is his unprecedented dominance, which includes carrying the statistical load in every series

[Full Court]

Full court had no response.

Bron fam wins again.

Lol. That's as much of a "win" as you'll ever get. I'll concede that there was a debate back then about if Isiah should be on the team. I had forgotten about that. I think there were even rumors that it was because Jordan blackballed him or something.

But Thomas is most assuredly ranked higher than CP3 as well, so you lose again.

Full Court - 173
Bronie fluffers - 0


:lebronamazed:

[beasted]

Wait a second. Are there really idiots who have CP3 ahead of Isiah? Based on what?

Isiah led his team to 3 Finals and 2 other conference finals. Please don't try to sell me how the Pistons were just some juggernaut stacked with talent for those 5 years.

CP3 has been a career loser.

[ArbitraryWater]

Stockton also has a better playoff +/- vs the Western Conference than Lebron James. Think about that...

West was brutal back then because superstars and players in general... all played. If you look at any Barkley Robinson Hakeem Clyde Malone Stockton run there all just brutal gauntlets against each other.

Kinda makes me think MJ got off a little easy. In the East who did he have to deal with? Pat Ewing and Reggie. The West was tougher. It was more of a gauntlet.

We done with the 90s

[ArbitraryWater]

Wait a second. Are there really idiots who have CP3 ahead of Isiah? Based on what?

Isiah led his team to 3 Finals and 2 other conference finals. Please don't try to sell me how the Pistons were just some juggernaut stacked with talent for those 5 years.

CP3 has been a career loser.


Some people take analysis further than Kindergarten level counting.


I know, hard to believe, right?

[beasted]

Some people take analysis further than Kindergarten level counting.


I know, hard to believe, right?

How much adult-level brain power is needed when one guy spends all of his time failing so miserably?

CP3 has been to 2 conference finals over 19 years. Once was one of the most epic chokes in history to lose the series due directly to how soft and consistently injured CP3 is. The other time was due to an absurd amount of injuries where he needed to beat a Clippers team without Leonard, a Nuggets team without Murray, and Lakers missing Davis for time in the series and limping around the rest.

How can someone so consistent at failure be held in such high regard?

Nobody even considers Baylor a top 8 SF because of his constant failure, but CP3 gets a pass by simpletons who know no history of the game say so?

Winning has always been the ticket to the discussion of the best. If you lose you will always be an afterthought.

[RRR3]

How much adult-level brain power is needed when one guy spends all of his time failing so miserably?

CP3 has been to 2 conference finals over 19 years. Once was one of the most epic chokes in history to lose the series due directly to how soft and consistently injured CP3 is. The other time was due to an absurd amount of injuries where he needed to beat a Clippers team without Leonard, a Nuggets team without Murray, and Lakers missing Davis for time in the series and limping around the rest.

How can someone so consistent at failure be held in such high regard?

Nobody even considers Baylor a top 8 SF because of his constant failure, but CP3 gets a pass by simpletons who know no history of the game say so?

Winning has always been the ticket to the discussion of the best. If you lose you will always be an afterthought.
dafuq

[beasted]

dafuq

I can link to several articles that have LeBron, Durant, Bird, Erving, Leonard, Pippen, all basically universally ahead of him, and then a bunch more with a mixed bag in that 7th+ of Hondo, Barry, Carmelo, etc. Etc..

[3ba11]

I can link to several articles that have LeBron, Durant, Bird, Erving, Leonard, Pippen, all basically universally ahead of him, and then a bunch more with a mixed bag in that 7th+ of Hondo, Barry, Carmelo, etc. Etc..


most media dont know who baylor is

[beasted]

most media dont know who baylor is

Why don't they know him, but know Russell and Kareem and West, etc.? Ya think it has something to do with all the losing he did?

[1987_Lakers]

Wait a second. Are there really idiots who have CP3 ahead of Isiah? Based on what?

Isiah led his team to 3 Finals and 2 other conference finals. Please don't try to sell me how the Pistons were just some juggernaut stacked with talent for those 5 years.

CP3 has been a career loser.

Deflecting the argument from Stockton vs Paul to Isiah vs Paul I see. :lol

Phoenix already put you in your place.

Full court had no response to what I said.

Best to just let this thread die down.

[beasted]

Deflecting the argument from Stockton vs Paul to Isiah vs Paul I see. :lol

Phoenix already put you in your place.

Full court had no response to what I said.

Best to just let this thread die down.

What are you even talking about?

Serious question. I dont live on here, so I really don't know.

[3ba11]

Why don't they know him, but know Russell and Kareem and West, etc.? Ya think it has something to do with all the losing he did?

I'm sure he made Finals and completely dominated

His Finals record 61 pts still stands and withstood MJ

He was kind of a 1-man team just like people said Lebron was a losing 1-man team until he formed super-teams... Tbh, Baylor did far better than pre-decision Lebron.

[beasted]

I'm sure he made Finals and completely dominated

His Finals record 61 pts still stands and withstood MJ

He was kind of a 1-man team just like people said Lebron was a losing 1-man team until he formed super-teams... Tbh, Baylor did far better than pre-decision Lebron.

Be that as it may, consistent losers are never front of mind, except for Paul for some reason.

Someone please chime in to correct me if I'm wrong o n the general sentiment, but I get the impression that CP3 seems to be the highest ranked player to have never won a Finals or MVP, and less than 3 conference finals appearances.

[SouBeachTalents]

I'm sure he made Finals and completely dominated

His Finals record 61 pts still stands and withstood MJ

He was kind of a 1-man team just like people said Lebron was a losing 1-man team until he formed super-teams... Tbh, Baylor did far better than pre-decision Lebron.
The guy played with Jerry West and this dude is claiming he was a 1 man team. It's crazy how clueless you are about the sport :lol

[Axe]

Full court had no response.

Bron fam wins again.
:oldlol: (https://i.ibb.co/SxWM8PC/IMG-20230805-073843.jpg)

[sdot_thadon]

If Pippen ever dominated the sitting MVP to win a Finals, MJ wouldn't be considered goat.

The reason he's considered goat is his unprecedented dominance, which includes carrying the statistical load in every series
Whats funny is an argument could be made that Pippen outplayed the 3 time mvp, 3 time fmvp, 91 mvp runner up in Magic Johnson. Especially if we look at it through your retarded ass "scoring is the only thing that matters" lens. Scottie actually outscored everyone on the Lakers.......

[3ba11]

Whats funny is an argument could be made that Pippen outplayed the 3 time mvp, 3 time fmvp, 91 mvp runner up in Magic Johnson. Especially if we look at it through your retarded ass "scoring is the only thing that matters" lens. Scottie actually outscored everyone on the Lakers.......


Kyrie and Magic dominated, while Pippen has never dominated or achieved elite PPG, APG or clutch... There's no comparison of a Shawn Marion-level role to a team-carrying role like Magic, Kyrie or MJ

[SouBeachTalents]

The guy played with Jerry West and this dude is claiming he was a 1 man team. It's crazy how clueless you are about the sport :lol
How embarrassing.

[3ba11]

The guy played with Jerry West and this dude is claiming he was a 1 man team. It's crazy how clueless you are about the sport :lol


You think that a guy who produces lottery record against Finals teams is the greatest we've ever seen

So you're the clueless one that fell for a fraud (fraud victim)

This guy has a beta veneer and literally scared in the clutch, yet you couldn't see that and fell for media propaganda

You think ball-domination is good basketball and don't understand chemistry or teammate development

I could go on and on .. in short, you're short and never played ball... Everything you know about hoops, you heard from someone on tv

[ShawkFactory]

You think that a guy who produces lottery record against Finals teams is the greatest we've ever seen

So you're the clueless one that fell for a fraud (fraud victim)

This guy has a beta veneer and literally scared in the clutch, yet you couldn't see that and fell for media propaganda

You think ball-domination is good basketball and don't understand chemistry or teammate development

I could go on and on .. in short, you're short and never played ball... Everything you know about hoops, you heard from someone on tv

Skiiiirrrrrrttttt :lol

[SouBeachTalents]

Skiiiirrrrrrttttt :lol
3ball's claim: Elgin Baylor was a 1 man team despite playing virtually his entire career with a consensus top 15-20 player in Jerry West.

3ball's rebuttal: LeBron LeBron LeBron :lol

[Hey Yo]

Kyrie and Magic dominated, while Pippen has never dominated or achieved elite PPG, APG or clutch... There's no comparison of a Shawn Marion-level role to a team-carrying role like Magic, Kyrie or MJ

What year did Irving finish 3rd in MVP voting while also voted first team on both ends of the court?

[3ba11]

What year did Irving finish 3rd in MVP voting while also voted first team on both ends of the court?


the media doesn't differentiate between being gifted a dynasty versus building one.

Pippen was a 7 PPG rookie that grew into a Shawn Marion-level player - he could never build a team to 50 wins - he was simply handed the goat dynasty, which he cratered to early playoff exit and barely .500 by the time MJ returned.

So what year was Kyrie handed a fully-developed goat dynasty that he was free to destroy and get media accolade for it?... Kyrie was a true 1st option because he made all-star with a 30-win team, while 2nd options like Klay or Pippen need tremendous winning spotlight to get media accolade.

[Hey Yo]

But you said Jordan was the dynasty so how could a 6th round journeyman replace the dynasty and yet only lose 2 less games from the prior ssason??


What year did Irving finish 3rd in MVP voting while also voted first team on both ends of the court?

[3ba11]

But you said Jordan was the dynasty so how could a 6th round journeyman replace the dynasty and yet only lose 2 less games from the prior ssason??


What year did Irving finish 3rd in MVP voting while also voted first team on both ends of the court?


I answered your question - the media is influenced by the winning spotlight, aka Pippen is the only guy that got 3rd in MVP based solely on 55 wins... There wasn't a single thing he did that was 3rd that year.. It was simply his unprecedented winning spotlight of being a 3x champion alongside the GOAT... .Otherwise, no one in the league thought he was anywhere near Shaq, Hakeem, Robinson, Barkley, Malone, and many more franchise players - Pippen wasn't a franchise player - he was Shawn Marion that was handed a fully-developed dynasty.

So let me know when Kyrie is handed a 3-peat dynasty, otherwise, your question is dumb... the media's opinions mean no more than yours or mine in this forum- media accolade isn't an argument

Ultimately, neither kyrie nor Pippen can build a lottery team to 50+ wins, but at least Kyrie has the prodigal talent and statistical capacity to be a franchise player...Otoh, Pippen can't be a franchise player, aka any decent scorer will supplant Pippen as 1st option, so teams lack capacity to add talent if they're building around Pippen.

[Hey Yo]

Of course Pippen got enough MVP votes to finish 3rd cause nobody thought he could lead Chicago to the playoffs let alone 55 wins in his first year of being first option and having a huge amount of pressure to succeed. Especially while having a
6th round scub avg. 30mins a game in the starting role.


Kyrie led the Cavs to the least amount of wins combined his first 4 seasons.

[3ba11]

Of course Pippen got enough MVP votes to finish 3rd cause nobody thought he could lead Chicago to the playoffs let alone 55 wins in his first year of being first option and having a huge amount of pressure to succeed. Especially while having a
6th round scub avg. 30mins a game in the starting role.


Kyrie led the Cavs to the least amount of wins combined his first 4 seasons.


You're making my point... Due to the aforementioned "fanboy", "knee-jerk reaction", and shallow level of knowledge that the media has, MVP voting is largely based on surprise factor, aka 05' Nash, or pippen's 55 wins, or 11' Rose felt like a surprise that the media latched onto like he was their darling or something,.. Curry's unanimous MVP vote was also surprise factor of the paperboy next door.. Going forward, you should watch for it during the 2026 season - the media will latch onto their MVP candidate based on some compelling soundbite that some media member has about some player, and that player will be viewed with rose-color glasses thereafter.. This doesn't happen every year because some years the MVP is quite obvious.. But it happens in years like 2026, where SGA will have to move mountains to go b2b... In years like this, the media will be looking for anything that sparks their interest - a player could gimmick their way to MVP, which is kind of what Nash did in 05' with that hairdo - it turned him from boring accountant into grateful dead or nirvana or whatever.. Infact, now that I think about it, it's a shock that Pippen didn't win MVP in 94', given the massive surprise that 55 wins was - no one had bigger surprise factor, winning spotlight and cache (MJ) than Pippen, yet only 3rd??... I rest my case

[Hey Yo]

Nash, Rose, Curry already had 1st option experience and also didn't lose the best player of their era and replace him with a scrub 6th round pick fresh out of the Italian league.

Pippen definitely exceeded the expectations of the fans and the media. There's no way to frame it any other way without seeing you're blatantly being dumb by trying to prop up MJ.

[sdot_thadon]

Kyrie and Magic dominated, while Pippen has never dominated or achieved elite PPG, APG or clutch... There's no comparison of a Shawn Marion-level role to a team-carrying role like Magic, Kyrie or MJ

Don't dodge the post hoe. Youre so big on Kyrie outscoring Steph in 2016 when Scottie outscored everyone on the Lakers in the 1991 finals. And just for shits and giggles in the 2016 finals Klay scored more than anybody did for the Lakers in 1991.:kobe:

[3ba11]

Don't dodge the post hoe. Youre so big on Kyrie outscoring Steph in 2016 when Scottie outscored everyone on the Lakers in the 1991 finals. And just for shits and giggles in the 2016 finals Klay scored more than anybody did for the Lakers in 1991.:kobe:


I never said that Kyrie outscored Curry... I said that Kyrie dominated Curry while being an equal-scoring partner to Lebron and the "closer".

That's different than Pippen getting carried by a teammate and destroyed by Magic statistically, despite achieving 2 more points via worst-ever efficiency.. Of course zero clutch or 4th quarter production.

You're forgetting that when Wade outscored all the Spurs in the 2013 Finals, he was a near-equal scoring partner to Lebron and the "closer" similar to Kyrie.. So Wade and Kyrie were never carried like Pippen because they didn't force Lebron to defeat max defensive attention (carry the scoring load).

Carry on in ignorance if you must, but that means that guys who know the game like Stockton, Kenny Smith, Barkley, Shaq or 3ba11 will continue to set you straight.. Specifically, lebron's rings aren't worth anything because he skipped the development stages.. For example, it would've been easier for Jordan to dominate the ball and turn Pippen into spot-up shooter like Lebron did to Hughes, Jamison, Ingram or Westbrook, but instead jordan SACRIFICED and GOT BETTER, so he could play off-ball more and develop Pippen... Lebron skipped these tough stages, or actually he gave up a year early, since there was a 1-star organic chip up for grabs in 2011 - Dirk grabbed it, but the Cavs would've had the long-standing chemistry and reputed defense that the Heat lacked to beat those Mavs.

[SouBeachTalents]

That's different than Pippen getting carried by a teammate and destroyed by Magic statistically, despite achieving 2 more points via worst-ever efficiency
Pippen's worst ever efficiency in the '91 Finals: 52.7 TS%
Kobe's career Finals efficiency: 50.1 TS%


You're forgetting that when Wade outscored all the Spurs in the 2013 Finals,
Gasol outscored everyone on Orlando & Boston in the Lakers Finals wins.


he was a near-equal scoring partner to Lebron and the "closer" similar to Kyrie...
Claiming LeBron & Wade were equal scoring partners in their two Finals wins is like claiming SGA & Jalen Williams were. Nobody's buying that bullshit :lol

And I'd like to see you construct an argument for how Wade was in anyway the closer in 2013. 4th quarter scoring numbers in that series

LeBron: 54
Wade: 24

[3ba11]

https://i.ibb.co/qBBHvB1/chrome-d-EXe-R4x-E8t.jpg

[3ba11]

Pippen's worst ever efficiency in the '91 Finals: 52.7 TS%
Kobe's career Finals efficiency: 50.1 TS%





When I say that Pippen had worst-ever efficiency, I mean in general - he had worst-ever shooting splits for 3 title runs (see previous post).

A Shawn Marion level player like Pippen can't be compared to a Lebron level player in Magic (better than Lebron).

It's absurd







Gasol outscored everyone on Orlando & Boston in the Lakers Finals wins.





^^^ That doesn't really matter when it requires Kobe to average 10+ more than whatever you're saying Gasol did - again, everyone else in history gets an equal scoring partner to attract EQUAL defensive attention, while true goats defeat MAX defensive attention (carry scoring load).






Claiming LeBron & Wade were equal scoring partners in their two Finals wins is like claiming SGA & Jalen Williams were. Nobody's buying that bullshit :lol





if one guy is at 20 and the other is at 25, this doesn't qualify as carrying the scoring load.

Wade was within 5 ppg of Lebron for the 12' and 13' Finals, and then carried Lebron against the 11' Mavs and 11 Celtics






4th quarter scoring numbers in that series

LeBron: 54
Wade: 24


Now do that for 2011 Finals

I'll wait, along with Wade's 2nd FMVP and borderline top 10 status

[eliteballer]

#CherryPickedChips

[BarberSchool]

Bold statement for a dude with no chips, just a gold medal.

But I like it. And agree for the most part.