Prime Shaquille O'Neal

[Lebron23]

Prime Shaq would Barbecue Chicken Prime Wilt Chamberlain and Bill Russell.
https://youtu.be/EH6aD02ElsY?si=W5PyC5AeX9THvqUM

[Gudo]

And people often forget that about Shaq

[SouBeachTalents]

Shaq was a better Finals performers than Kobe.

[Phoenix]

Meh, not even top 20 all-time.

https://d2w9rnfcy7mm78.cloudfront.net/21956353/original_1ce6394f7a783f8133b28f7f60002c30.gif?1684 877490

[k0kakw0rld]

Prime Shaq would Barbecue Chicken Prime Wilt Chamberlain and Bill Russell.
https://youtu.be/EH6aD02ElsY?si=W5PyC5AeX9THvqUM

Prime Hakeem > Prime Shaq

[John8204]

Unstoppable...except for those six times he got swept in the playoffs

[sdot_thadon]

I think prime Shaq was the 1st top ten guy we ever penalized because we somehow thought he should be even better. Let thar sink in.


Prime Hakeem > Prime Shaq

Im a Dream guy through and through. he definitely had a better bag of moves and was a greater defender but Shaq could literally put an entire squad in foul trouble 5 minutes into the 1st qtr. He was something different altogether. The pressure he put on teams was unique to him in NBA history.

Oh and anyone else hear Kobe catch a stray from commentary like 1:20 in?

[RRR3]

Unstoppable...except for those six times he got swept in the playoffs
Meltdown

[SouBeachTalents]

Unstoppable...except for those six times he got swept in the playoffs
Stockton was better.

[sdot_thadon]

Stockton was better.

And Hornacek

[John8204]

Stockton was better.

Well they played against each other 9 times in the playoffs and Stockton won 8 of them....so 8 is greater than 1.

[SouBeachTalents]

Well they played against each other 9 times in the playoffs and Stockton won 8 of them....so 8 is greater than 1.
Exactly.

[tpols]

We'll probably never see another Shaq again. He was a 7+ foot gorilla of a human being. Its almost comical how big he was and yet still surprisingly fluid with great coordination.

[tpols]

Well they played against each other 9 times in the playoffs and Stockton won 8 of them....so 8 is greater than 1.


:oldlol:

David smoking Goliath yet again.

[j3lademaster]

Stockton was better.

I’d totally root for Stockton though. Dud looks like the estate appraiser my mortgage co sent over, while Shaq looks like a freak created in a Jurassic Park lab to play basketball.

[Phoenix]

Stockton was better.

Barely cracks the top 10 centers ever, and I mean barely.

[Phoenix]

Dennis Johnson is 6-0 in the playoffs against Michael Jordan.

:lebronamazed:

[RRR3]

Dennis Johnson is 6-0 in the playoffs against Michael Jordan.

:lebronamazed:
Proof he's better according to Dumbass8204

[Phoenix]

Proof he's better according to Dumbass8204

Lebron is 5-11 against Tony Parker. BRB, I'm gonna have to rethink this whole thing now.

[Phoenix]

Hakeem is 7-11 against Gary Payton in the playoffs.

[SouBeachTalents]

Jokic is 4-8 against Caruso

[RRR3]

What sad is we can keep posting these all day but he will NEVER admit he's wrong. Obsessive haters never give an inch.

[Phoenix]

Giannis is 4-11 vs Kyle Lowry in the playoffs. He's now out of my top 50.

[John8204]

Proof he's better according to Dumbass8204

VORP
1. LeBron James 156.61
2. Michael Jordan* 116.05
3. John Stockton* 106.53

16. Magic Johnson* 79.97
17. Larry Bird* 77.24
18. Shaquille O'Neal* 75.51
19. Stephen Curry 74.73

Box Plus/Minus
6. David Robinson* 7.47
7. Larry Bird* 6.89
8. John Stockton* 6.84
9. Giannis Antetokounmpo 6.74
10. Chris Paul 6.59

22. Clyde Drexler* 5.41
23. Tracy McGrady* 5.20
24. Shaquille O'Neal* 5.15
25. Karl Malone* 5.14
26. Manu Ginóbili* 5.00

Win Shares
18. John Stockton* .2087
19. Shaquille O'Neal* .2081

Hey maybe if you call me dumb enough times the facts will change...and the most dominant player of all-time could make it to week 2 against 18 and 19 year olds.

[RRR3]

Duh-uhhh-uhh-uhhh
:lol

[John8204]

:lol


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VfGSd-tikH4&list=RDVfGSd-tikH4&start_radio=1

[RRR3]

I’m honestly just laughing at how stupid you are. No one agrees with you maybe ask yourself why that is. No one on earth agrees with you. Not even Stockton. I’m sorry Shaq had sex with your girlfriend but it’s fine to get over it.

[SouBeachTalents]

Damn, Stockton's one of the 10 greatest players of all time, better than Hakeem, Kobe, Curry, Giannis etc.

CP3 & Robinson are also top 5 all time.

[RRR3]

Damn, Stockton's one of the 10 greatest players of all time, better than Hakeem, Kobe, Curry, Giannis etc.

CP3 & Robinson are also top 5 all time.
:roll: :roll: :roll:

[John8204]

I’m honestly just laughing at how stupid you are. No one agrees with you maybe ask yourself why that is. No one on earth agrees with you. Not even Stockton. I’m sorry Shaq had sex with your girlfriend but it’s fine to get over it.

Really because I just feel bad for a grown man who's arguments are "everyone else is doing it" "your a dummy head" "I bet your girlfriend banged him".

[RRR3]

Really because I just feel bad for a grown man who's arguments are "everyone else is doing it" "your a dummy head" "I bet your girlfriend banged him".
How do you STILL not get that when you say things like "John Stockton>Shaq" people are going to respond in kind? Are you actually unaware that's an insane statement? That is like if I said Bob Cousy was better than Wilt.

[RRR3]

https://i.imgflip.com/a2ue86.jpg

[Phoenix]

VORP
1. LeBron James 156.61
2. Michael Jordan* 116.05
3. John Stockton* 106.53

16. Magic Johnson* 79.97
17. Larry Bird* 77.24
18. Shaquille O'Neal* 75.51
19. Stephen Curry 74.73
20. Hakeem Olajuwon 74.22

Box Plus/Minus
6. David Robinson* 7.47
7. Larry Bird* 6.89
8. John Stockton* 6.84
9. Giannis Antetokounmpo 6.74
10. Chris Paul 6.59

22. Clyde Drexler* 5.41
23. Tracy McGrady* 5.20
24. Shaquille O'Neal* 5.15
25. Karl Malone* 5.14
26. Manu Ginóbili* 5.00
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30. Hakeem Olajuwon 4.65

Win Shares PER 48
18. John Stockton* .2087
19. Shaquille O'Neal* .2081
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52. Hakeem Olajuwon .1767

Hey maybe if you call me dumb enough times the facts will change...and the most dominant player of all-time could make it to week 2 against 18 and 19 year olds.

Since I like keeping receipts for some of the dumbest arguments made on this site, I've taken the liberty of adding Hakeem's career rankings in those categories since you were arguing for him over Shaq a few weeks ago( which at least is a conversation unlike this retarded argument for Stockton). Interesting because the same 'facts' you use for Stockton over Shaq, Shaq has over Hakeem. Win shares per 48 is particularly brutal if we're going off that metric. I also find it interesting that you clearly go on basketball reference to pick out any numbers you can apply a '2 is more than 1' argument when it suits you,the first category on the all-time leaders page under advanced stats is PER. Shaq is 5th, Hakeem is 20th, Stockton 41st. Odd that you leapfrog right over that.

[Phoenix]

Damn, Stockton's one of the 10 greatest players of all time, better than Hakeem, Kobe, Curry, Giannis etc.

CP3 & Robinson are also top 5 all time.

Hell James Harden is like top 15 based on his logic.

[John8204]

Since I like keeping receipts for some of the dumbest arguments made on this site, I've taken the liberty of adding Hakeem's career rankings in those categories since you were arguing for him over Shaq a few weeks ago( which at least is a conversation unlike this retarded argument for Stockton). Interesting because the same 'facts' you use for Stockton over Shaq, Shaq has over Hakeem. Win shares per 48 is particularly brutal if we're going off that metric. I also find it interesting that you clearly go on basketball reference to pick out any numbers you can apply a '2 is more than 1' argument when it suits you,the first category on the all-time leaders page under advanced stats is PER. Shaq is 5th, Hakeem is 20th, Stockton 41st. Odd that you leapfrog right over that.

Well as I've said before for me the trio of Hakeem/Shaq/Robinson are all neck and neck. And David Robinson actually has better numbers than those two at certain points. Part of this is the eye test because we saw a healthy Shaq compete against an older Hakeem and Olajuwon swept him. Hakeem has better variety of accounting numbers than Shaq

Hakeem
Points - 16
Rebounds - 15
Steals -11
Blocks - 1

Shaq
Points - 11
Rebounds - 16
Blocks - - 9

Now why are Hakeem's numbers in win/shares, VORP, etc lower than Shaq's. Well I think the reasonable answer would be Shaq team hoped to play with MVP's and Hakeem spent the majority of his career with one franchise. Had Hakeem played with four MVP's perhaps his team success would have been better. Also when you look at Defensive win shares, Shaq is 12th amongst centers, Hakeem is 4th. Shaq is actually next to Stockton in Defensive Win Shares...but Stockton is the 2nd highest PG on that list behine Kidd.

The final thing I would say that Hakeem has over Shaq is the comparison between what they did in college. Olajuwon made the final four and the championship game while Shaq couldn't even crack the sweet sixteen.

[RRR3]

Well as I've said before for me the trio of Hakeem/Shaq/Robinson are all neck and neck. And David Robinson actually has better numbers than those two at certain points. Part of this is the eye test because we saw a healthy Shaq compete against an older Hakeem and Olajuwon swept him. Hakeem has better variety of accounting numbers than Shaq

Hakeem
Points - 16
Rebounds - 15
Steals -11
Blocks - 1

Shaq
Points - 11
Rebounds - 16
Blocks - - 9

Now why are Hakeem's numbers in win/shares, VORP, etc lower than Shaq's. Well I think the reasonable answer would be Shaq team hoped to play with MVP's and Hakeem spent the majority of his career with one franchise. Had Hakeem played with four MVP's perhaps his team success would have been better. Also when you look at Defensive win shares, Shaq is 12th amongst centers, Hakeem is 4th. Shaq is actually next to Stockton in Defensive Win Shares...but Stockton is the 2nd highest PG on that list behine Kidd.

The final thing I would say that Hakeem has over Shaq is the comparison between what they did in college. Olajuwon made the final four and the championship game while Shaq couldn't even crack the sweet sixteen.
Goalpost moving the last report of a desperate troll.

[SouBeachTalents]

Well as I've said before for me the trio of Hakeem/Shaq/Robinson are all neck and neck. And David Robinson actually has better numbers than those two at certain points. Part of this is the eye test because we saw a healthy Shaq compete against an older Hakeem and Olajuwon swept him. Hakeem has better variety of accounting numbers than Shaq

Hakeem
Points - 16
Rebounds - 15
Steals -11
Blocks - 1

Shaq
Points - 11
Rebounds - 16
Blocks - - 9

Now why are Hakeem's numbers in win/shares, VORP, etc lower than Shaq's. Well I think the reasonable answer would be Shaq team hoped to play with MVP's and Hakeem spent the majority of his career with one franchise. Had Hakeem played with four MVP's perhaps his team success would have been better. Also when you look at Defensive win shares, Shaq is 12th amongst centers, Hakeem is 4th. Shaq is actually next to Stockton in Defensive Win Shares...but Stockton is the 2nd highest PG on that list behine Kidd.

The final thing I would say that Hakeem has over Shaq is the comparison between what they did in college. Olajuwon made the final four and the championship game while Shaq couldn't even crack the sweet sixteen.
The amount of effort you put into trolling is wild :lol

[Phoenix]

Well as I've said before for me the trio of Hakeem/Shaq/Robinson are all neck and neck. And David Robinson actually has better numbers than those two at certain points. Part of this is the eye test because we saw a healthy Shaq compete against an older Hakeem and Olajuwon swept him. Hakeem has better variety of accounting numbers than Shaq

Hakeem
Points - 16
Rebounds - 15
Steals -11
Blocks - 1

Shaq
Points - 11
Rebounds - 16
Blocks - - 9

Now why are Hakeem's numbers in win/shares, VORP, etc lower than Shaq's. Well I think the reasonable answer would be Shaq team hoped to play with MVP's and Hakeem spent the majority of his career with one franchise. Had Hakeem played with four MVP's perhaps his team success would have been better. Also when you look at Defensive win shares, Shaq is 12th amongst centers, Hakeem is 4th. Shaq is actually next to Stockton in Defensive Win Shares...but Stockton is the 2nd highest PG on that list behine Kidd.

The final thing I would say that Hakeem has over Shaq is the comparison between what they did in college. Olajuwon made the final four and the championship game while Shaq couldn't even crack the sweet sixteen.

1) You saw a peak Hakeem sweep a young Shaq. Shaq actually played better against Hakeem than David Robinson in 95 and Ewing in 94, both of whom were in their primes. Shaq also beat Hakeem 3-1 in 99. He was past his prime by then but he made third team, and you're crediting Hakeem with beating pre-prime Shaq sooooo.....

2) So you're penalizing Shaq because he played with MVPs. He had about 3 seasons of an MVP level Kobe( 2001-2003), 2 seasons of MVP level Wade( 2006 and 2007), 1 full season of Nash( 08) and 1 season of Lebron( 09). Garnett was past his prime in 2011. Stockton played with Karl Malone who was an MVP level player for 14 years( 88-01). So if you want to play that game, Stockton had access to an MVP level player for several more seasons than Shaq did. Shaq was pretty much the defacto MVP level player on his teams from 93 to 06. By virtue of Stockton and Malone playing practically their entire career together and being blessed with good health, there's really no evidence to say what Stockton actually would do in a situation where he actually had to carry a team. Fair guess is he couldn't, because he was a great floor general but he was still at best a complimentary talent who had access to the entirety of Malone's career. We actually have numbers to say that during Shaq's prime, the team were able to withstand periods of Kobe and Wade being out, but not Shaq:

The Lakers were 41-12 with Shaq and without Kobe:
https://www.statmuse.com/nba/ask/shaq-record-without-kobe-on-lakers

Kobe was 23-25 between 2000-2004, the period when he was an all-NBA level player, with the Lakers and Shaq was out:
https://www.statmuse.com/nba/ask?q=kobe+record+without+shaq+on+lakers+1999-00+to+2003-04

We also have evidence that Shaq maintained and even increased his numbers without or without those guys. We had a thread on this site about that a few weeks ago:

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?522127-Shaq-s-effect-on-Kobe-amp-Wade-s-shooting-percentages

3) John Stockton never made the sweet 16 either, but you only make it a talking point for Shaq. If Shaq had Clyde Drexler he probably goes far in the NCAA. History shows us that SHaq with one great guard is pretty much a championship contender.

I'll continue to say, you're full of shit on the topic.

[tpols]

Out of the three its pretty apparent Shaq had more help than David Robinson or Hakeem. The trio of Penny Kobe Wade is > Duncan or Clyde by themselves. Not to mention all the team hopping he did at the end of his career chasing rings which Hakeem and Drob didn't do.

[John8204]

Goalpost moving the last report of a desperate troll.

Basketball isn't measured in single metrics. You do have numbers that support Hakeem over Shaq and their are numbers that support Stockton over Shaq. I can also make an argument without insulting you, you don't seem able to do that.


1) You saw a peak Hakeem sweep a young Shaq. Shaq actually played better against Hakeem than David Robinson in 95 and Ewing in 94, both of whom were in their primes. Shaq also beat Hakeem 3-1 in 99. He was past his prime by then but he made third team, and you're crediting Hakeem with beating pre-prime Shaq sooooo.....

1 David Robinson 29 SAS 73 901 1050 0.858 81 38.0 27.6 10.8 2.9 1.7 3.2 .530 .300 .774 17.5 .273
2 Shaquille O'Neal 22 ORL 12 605 1050 0.576 79 37.0 29.3 11.4 2.7 0.9 2.4 .583 .000 .533 14.0 .230
3 Karl Malone 31 UTA 14 532 1050 0.507 82 38.1 26.7 10.6 3.5 1.6 1.0 .536 .268 .742 13.8 .212
4 Patrick Ewing 32 NYK 2 230 1050 0.219 79 37.0 23.9 11.0 2.7 0.9 2.0 .503 .286 .750 9.6 .157
5 Hakeem Olajuwon 32 HOU 1 147 1050 0.140 72 39.6 27.8 10.8 3.5 1.8 3.4 .517 .188 .756 10.7 .181

1 Charles Barkley 29 PHO 59 835 980 0.852 76 37.6 25.6 12.2 5.1 1.6 1.0 .520 .305 .765 14.4 .242
2 Hakeem Olajuwon 30 HOU 22 647 980 0.660 82 39.5 26.1 13.0 3.5 1.8 4.2 .529 .000 .779 15.8 .234
3 Michael Jordan 29 CHI 13 565 980 0.577 78 39.3 32.6 6.7 5.5 2.8 0.8 .495 .352 .837 17.2 .270
4 Patrick Ewing 30 NYK 4 359 980 0.366 81 37.1 24.2 12.1 1.9 0.9 2.0 .503 .143 .719 10.6 .170
5 Dominique Wilkins 33 ATL 0 54 980 0.055 71 37.3 29.9 6.8 3.2 1.0 0.4 .468 .380 .828 10.5 .191
6 David Robinson 27 SAS 0 33 980 0.034 82 39.2 23.4 11.7 3.7 1.5 3.2 .501 .176 .732 13.2 .197
7 Shaquille O'Neal 20 ORL 0 30 980 0.031 81 37.9 23.4 13.9 1.9 0.7 3.5 .562 .000 .592 10.4 .163

1 Hakeem Olajuwon 31 HOU 66 889 1010 0.880 80 41.0 27.3 11.9 3.6 1.6 3.7 .528 .421 .716 14.3 .210
2 David Robinson 28 SAS 24 730 1010 0.723 80 40.5 29.8 10.7 4.8 1.7 3.3 .507 .345 .749 20.0 .296
3 Scottie Pippen 28 CHI 7 390 1010 0.386 72 38.3 22.0 8.7 5.6 2.9 0.8 .491 .320 .660 11.2 .194
4 Shaquille O'Neal 21 ORL 3 289 1010 0.286 81 39.8 29.3 13.2 2.4 0.9 2.9 .599 .000 .554 16.9 .252
5 Patrick Ewing 31 NYK 1 255 1010 0.252 79 37.6 24.5 11.2 2.3 1.1 2.7 .496 .286 .765 13.1 .211

I'd argue that Shaq was in his peak when he was in Orlando and that period of time he was consistently in the MVP race with Hakeem. He might have been "young" but he wasn't young enough to be kept off the Top 50 list.


2) So you're penalizing Shaq because he played with MVPs. He had about 3 seasons of an MVP level Kobe( 2001-2003), 2 seasons of MVP level Wade( 2006 and 2007), 1 full season of Nash( 08) and 1 season of Lebron( 09). Garnett was past his prime in 2011. Stockton played with Karl Malone who was an MVP level player for 14 years( 88-01). So if you want to play that game, Stockton had access to an MVP level player for several more seasons than Shaq did. Shaq was pretty much the defacto MVP level player on his teams from 93 to 06.

Big difference between the three was Stockton and Hakeem stayed on their teams...Shaq left a championship level team to play with MVP's. Everyone rips Lebron for playing with Wade and Bosh to win titles. Shaq ran around the league looking for the best teammates he could leaving championship level teams because he wasn't good enough to win with Kobe/Wade/Penny.

And from 93/96 he played with the following all-stars - Penny, Jones, Kobe, Rodman, Payton, Malone, Mourning, Wade...and he did that on three different teams. All of those players were All-Stars without Shaq.



3) John Stockton never made the sweet 16 either, but you only make it a talking point for Shaq. If Shaq had Clyde Drexler he probably goes far in the NCAA. History shows us that SHaq with one great guard is pretty much a championship contender.

Stockton also played for a small team in Gonzaga during the time period when the NCAA tournament took 12 not 16 spots. And your argument falls apart that Shaq didn't play with a top guard when he did in Chris Jackson who was a top five pick

[John8204]

https://i.imgflip.com/a2ue86.jpg

Maybe you should ask yourself why it's so easy for me to make fact based arguments against Shaq and why you need to reduce yourself to insults, and poor attempts at japes. If you have attack someone on a personal level because you don't have the facts to support your case what does that say about you? I don't need to reduce myself to hyperbole to get my point across. I'll say this my goal might not be to win you over but making sound arguements I think other people see that and know. They might not speak up for me because why deal with being bullied and ridiculed but the facts and history and going to rest in their brains.

[Phoenix]

Basketball isn't measured in single metrics. You do have numbers that support Hakeem over Shaq and their are numbers that support Stockton over Shaq. I can also make an argument without insulting you, you don't seem able to do that.



1 David Robinson 29 SAS 73 901 1050 0.858 81 38.0 27.6 10.8 2.9 1.7 3.2 .530 .300 .774 17.5 .273
2 Shaquille O'Neal 22 ORL 12 605 1050 0.576 79 37.0 29.3 11.4 2.7 0.9 2.4 .583 .000 .533 14.0 .230
3 Karl Malone 31 UTA 14 532 1050 0.507 82 38.1 26.7 10.6 3.5 1.6 1.0 .536 .268 .742 13.8 .212
4 Patrick Ewing 32 NYK 2 230 1050 0.219 79 37.0 23.9 11.0 2.7 0.9 2.0 .503 .286 .750 9.6 .157
5 Hakeem Olajuwon 32 HOU 1 147 1050 0.140 72 39.6 27.8 10.8 3.5 1.8 3.4 .517 .188 .756 10.7 .181

1 Charles Barkley 29 PHO 59 835 980 0.852 76 37.6 25.6 12.2 5.1 1.6 1.0 .520 .305 .765 14.4 .242
2 Hakeem Olajuwon 30 HOU 22 647 980 0.660 82 39.5 26.1 13.0 3.5 1.8 4.2 .529 .000 .779 15.8 .234
3 Michael Jordan 29 CHI 13 565 980 0.577 78 39.3 32.6 6.7 5.5 2.8 0.8 .495 .352 .837 17.2 .270
4 Patrick Ewing 30 NYK 4 359 980 0.366 81 37.1 24.2 12.1 1.9 0.9 2.0 .503 .143 .719 10.6 .170
5 Dominique Wilkins 33 ATL 0 54 980 0.055 71 37.3 29.9 6.8 3.2 1.0 0.4 .468 .380 .828 10.5 .191
6 David Robinson 27 SAS 0 33 980 0.034 82 39.2 23.4 11.7 3.7 1.5 3.2 .501 .176 .732 13.2 .197
7 Shaquille O'Neal 20 ORL 0 30 980 0.031 81 37.9 23.4 13.9 1.9 0.7 3.5 .562 .000 .592 10.4 .163

1 Hakeem Olajuwon 31 HOU 66 889 1010 0.880 80 41.0 27.3 11.9 3.6 1.6 3.7 .528 .421 .716 14.3 .210
2 David Robinson 28 SAS 24 730 1010 0.723 80 40.5 29.8 10.7 4.8 1.7 3.3 .507 .345 .749 20.0 .296
3 Scottie Pippen 28 CHI 7 390 1010 0.386 72 38.3 22.0 8.7 5.6 2.9 0.8 .491 .320 .660 11.2 .194
4 Shaquille O'Neal 21 ORL 3 289 1010 0.286 81 39.8 29.3 13.2 2.4 0.9 2.9 .599 .000 .554 16.9 .252
5 Patrick Ewing 31 NYK 1 255 1010 0.252 79 37.6 24.5 11.2 2.3 1.1 2.7 .496 .286 .765 13.1 .211

I'd argue that Shaq was in his peak when he was in Orlando and that period of time he was consistently in the MVP race with Hakeem. He might have been "young" but he wasn't young enough to be kept off the Top 50 list.



Big difference between the three was Stockton and Hakeem stayed on their teams...Shaq left a championship level team to play with MVP's. Everyone rips Lebron for playing with Wade and Bosh to win titles. Shaq ran around the league looking for the best teammates he could leaving championship level teams because he wasn't good enough to win with Kobe/Wade/Penny.

And from 93/96 he played with the following all-stars - Penny, Jones, Kobe, Rodman, Payton, Malone, Mourning, Wade...and he did that on three different teams. All of those players were All-Stars without Shaq.



Stockton also played for a small team in Gonzaga during the time period when the NCAA tournament took 12 not 16 spots. And your argument falls apart that Shaq didn't play with a top guard when he did in Chris Jackson who was a top five pick

1) Shaq and Hakeem are interchangeable as far as rankings. In fact, I've said on here multiple times that I don't really do rankings. I do 'tiers', and Hakeem and Shaq are to me on the same tier of greatness. And no, Shaq was not in his peak in Orlando, no moreso than Hakeem was in his peak in 86 when he got to the finals. Shaq came into the NBA as a dominant force and immediately put up numbers. Stockton at no point in time was ever a MVP level player so regardless of whatever advanced stats you can pull up, or doing stupid shit like saying 'Stockton beat 8-1 in the playoffs' as if he was the driving force in those series and not Malone who was literally the MVP of the league, he's not in this conversation. Because if you use the numbers you're pulling in the manner you're applying them, as someone said earlier you'd have to make cases for someone like Chris Paul being a top 10-15 player all-time. I've also made plenty of posts to you without insulting, but it's reached the point where you don't argue in good faith so I'm not inclined to spare calling you a dumbass troll. It's how you operate when it comes to talking about Shaq. I'm perfectly ok with someone ranking Hakeem over Shaq. Hell, I might rank Hakeem over Shaq depending on what day of the week it is, I've done it before. But this idea that Stockton is ahead of Shaq, or that Shaq isn't a top 20 player is where you get into straight trolling bullshit. I've told you before, the critiques you have on Shaq are valid points if someone is arguing that he's the GOAT. Those little nitpicks are what keep him out of THAT conversation. You go to the extreme end and say he's not even a top 20 all-time player and at this point, I think you enjoy the attention it brings you, regardless of your whining about being insulted.

2) I think you mean 93-06, not 93-96 but out of those players, this is where you are disingenuous. Where those players were in their careers is more important than just throwing out their names. Alonzo Mourning was a role player with Shaq, after his kidney issues, WELL past his prime. Rodman's best days were well behind him as well. Payton was 36 and on the decline, Malone was 40. Jones was a solid player, made a couple all-star teams, lets not act like he was some transcendent talent. I could be equally as flippant and just throw out a bunch of names that Hakeem played with ignoring all context about what levels he and/or those players were at when he played with them: Charles Barkley, Scottie Pippen, Kevin Willis, Steve Francis,Antonio Davis, and Vince Carter. You mean to tell me Hakeem couldn't make the finals with an MVP in Charles Barkley and Clyde Drexler in 97? With Barkley and Pippen in 99? Stupid logic, right? Like you arguing that Shaq played with the 'allstar' Alonzo Mourning( and the funny thing is, Mourning in 06 was MUCH further from his best days than Barkley and Pippen were when Hakeem played with them).

The only real difference makers you're listing there based on what they were at that point are Penny, Kobe and Wade. Which 'championship level' teams did he leave to play with MVPs outside of Lebron and Nash( when he was well past his prime)? When he left the Heat they got bounced in the first round by the Bulls. When he left the Lakers Wade was a 2nd year player, he hadn't established himself as a superstar until Shaq got there ( and they possibly go all the way their very first year if Wade doesn't get injured against the Pistons, the same team that smacked the Lakers the year before). The other part that is disingenuous about just throwing out Penny, Wade and Kobe's names, is none of those guys were guaranteed superstars when they paired with Shaq. They were all young, promising talents that showed potential, but that still had to be realized on the court. You, and others, talk as if Kobe joining the Lakers in 1996 was guaranteed to produce something. He was a project coming into the NBA out of high school. Perhaps prodigious in talent and projected to be an all-star but that still had to be realized on the court and there's no guarantee it works out. Hell, MJ wasn't projected to be what he became coming into the NBA. People like to argue this shit like it was written in the stars.

3) Shaq had one year with Chris Jackson,Jackson was a sophomore with Shaq as the freshman. His 2nd year when he was player of the year, Jackson was in the NBA. Hakeem had two years of Drexler as well as Michael Young who was the teams leading scorer his final year. I don't see what relevance college has in a conversation about who the greatest NBA players are. Alot of great NBA players did nothing in college, and alot of great college players who won did nothing in the NBA.

[Phoenix]

Maybe you should ask yourself why it's so easy for me to make fact based arguments against Shaq and why you need to reduce yourself to insults, and poor attempts at japes.

And as I've said to you before, it's not the facts, its the conclusions. If we used the 'facts' you're using here, you could make cases for alot of guys being top 10 players who are barely top 30. James Harden by your metrics should be at worst top 15 based on the facts of some of his advanced stats rankings, but nobody who wants to be taken seriously would argue that on account of winshares, Vorp and whatever else you're using.

Stop playing victim with your 'why you insulting me, I can argue without doing it' shtick. It's lame as hell and you honestly come off as a bitch with how often you whine about being insulted.

[RRR3]

And as I've said to you before, it's not the facts, its the conclusions. If we used the 'facts' you're using here, you could make cases for alot of guys being top 10 players who are barely top 30. James Harden by your metrics should be at worst top 15 based on the facts of some of his advanced stats rankings, but nobody who wants to be taken seriously would argue that on account of winshares, Vorp and whatever else you're using.

Stop playing victim with your 'why you insulting me, I can argue without doing it' shtick. It's lame as hell and you honestly come off as a bitch with how often you whine about being insulted.
People insult you when you make blatant troll statements, what a shock :rolleyes: I don't engage in legitimate debates with trolls, anyone doing a modicum of research can see Shaq was more impactful than ****ing Stockton. https://xrapm.com/table_pages/RAPM_29y.html Here's a stat that is far more comprehensive than the ones he listed which are just box score based, and lo and behold Shaq is ahead of Stockton. :rolleyes:

And before that idiot says this stat proves Stockton is top 10 or whatever, learn to interpret stats. It's a measure of how well you play your role more than anything else, Stockton simply didn't have the same responsibilities of many other superstars because he wasn't asked to score much. Plus he was a pretty bad playoff dropper, the opposite of Shaq.

[John8204]

1) Shaq and Hakeem are interchangeable as far as rankings. In fact, I've said on here multiple times that I don't really do rankings.

Shaq came into a great situation, Hakeem came into a rebuild. We seem to agree on Hakeem and Shaq being close together in the rankings.


Stockton at no point in time was ever a MVP level player

I think Chris Paul is very close in rankings to Shaq, they are basically at the same positions on all-time lists (outside top five for their position). Now it is true Stockton didn't get the media love that Malone but we have historical perspective. Malone was chasing Kareem he was one of only 5 guys that was near 30K in points. At the time Malone was more valuable but we have historical perspective now...we know what Stockton did was much tougher (putting up 13+ APG per season, playing 82 games year after year). I don't rank guys in tiers I go generation and position.


I've also made plenty of posts to

And yet here I am still speaking to you, not insulting you, listening to you and addressing your points. What is a good faith conversation in your eyes? I have no problem or issue with people ranking Shaq over Stockton, but I don't agree with it. I do have an issue with your inability to stay on topic. You seem to want to create some sort of NBA algebra X might have beaten Y but what about C. You don't do rankings you do tiers...well Shaq, Stockton, Hakeem, and CPIII are all basically within 10 spots alltime in my opinion. Seems to be what you want.


I've done it before. But this idea that Stockton is ahead of Shaq, or that Shaq isn't a top 20 player is where you get into straight trolling bullshit. I've told you before, the critiques you have on Shaq are valid points if someone is arguing that he's the GOAT. Those little nitpicks are what keep him out of THAT conversation. You go to the extreme end and say he's not even a top 20 all-time player and at this point, I think you enjoy the attention it brings you, regardless of your whining about being insulted.


I don't enjoy the attention, I enjoy the validation that it's so hard for most of you to talk about facts. I think the difference between my feelings on the situation over yours is I don't exclude generations of players. I believe you are I are likely around the same age the difference is I don't add extra weight to players of that generation.


2) I think you mean 93-06, not 93-96 but out of those players, this is where you are disingenuous. Where those players were in their careers is more important than just throwing out their names. Alonzo Mourning was a role player with Shaq, after his kidney issues, WELL past his prime. Rodman's best days were well behind him as well. Payton was 36 and on the decline,


How many of those names did Hakeem play with during his good years and how many during his decline. You choose to exclude the 06 and later Shaq which would include, Nash, Stoudamire, Lebron, Pierce, Garnett, Allen, and Rondo. You want it both ways, you want to ignore the context of Shaq's later teammates but then use Hakeem at the end of his career. Here are the teams Shaq was on during his MVP "years"

Orlando - Penny, Grant, Scott, Anderson
Los Angeles - Glen Rice, Derek Harper, Derek Fisher, Kobe Bryant, Eddie Jones, Nick Van Exel, Gary Payton, Karl Malone, Mitch Richmond,
Miami - Gary Payton, Jayson Williams, Dwanye Wade, Alonzo Mourning, Eddie Jones, Steve Smith, Christian Laetner, and Antonie Walker

You going to tell me that Stockton or Hakeem had anywhere near that level and access to talent that Shaq had during his career. The man had Pat Riley and Jerry West building teams around him to get to titles.


The only real difference makers you're listing there based on what they were at that point are Penny, Kobe and Wade. Which 'championship level' teams did he leave to play with MVPs outside of Lebron and Nash( when he was well past his prime)? When he left the Heat they got bounced in the first round by the Bulls. When he left the Lakers Wade was a 2nd year player, he hadn't established himself as a superstar until Shaq got there ( and they possibly go all the way their very first year if Wade doesn't get injured against the Pistons, the same team that smacked the Lakers the year before). The other part that is disingenuous about just throwing out Penny, Wade and Kobe's names, is none of those guys were guaranteed superstars when they paired with Shaq. They were all young, promising talents that showed potential,

Orlando won 60 games the season before he left, Lakers won 57. Also Penny, Wade, and Kobe were not these young prospects when they played with Shaq. Penny made the 96 Olympic Team, Kobe was offered the 00 one, and Wade made the 04 team. It doesn't really pass the mustard to claim that they weren't that great but also they were good enough to make the "dream teams". You don't ask promising players to play on the National team, you pick great players to play on the national team.


but that still had to be realized on the court. You, and others, talk as if Kobe joining the Lakers in 1996 was guaranteed to produce something. He was a project coming into the NBA out of high school. Perhaps prodigious in talent and projected to be an all-star but that still had to be realized on the court and there's no guarantee it works out. Hell, MJ wasn't projected to be what he became coming into the NBA. People like to argue this shit like it was written in the stars.


In 2 years he was an All-Star in 3 years he made the MVP cut and 4 years he was on Olympic shortlist. Calling him a project is a bit of a stretch. Also let's not act like MJ wasn't a big deal, the guy was coming off a national championship and an Olympic gold medal you are talking about him like he was Jokic or Giannis and nobody saw him coming.



3) Shaq had one year with Chris Jackson,Jackson was a sophomore with Shaq as the freshman. His 2nd year when he was player of the year, Jackson was in the NBA. Hakeem had two years of Drexler as well as Michael Young who was the teams leading scorer his final year. I don't see what relevance college has in a conversation about who the greatest NBA players are. Alot of great NBA players did nothing in college, and alot of great college players who won did nothing in the NBA.

You were the one who said if Shaq had a great guard he would have won...he had a great guard he didn't win. The only all-timers I've seen with worse collegiate records are John Stockton who played for Gonzaga and Julius Erving who played for Amherst. LSU kinda a bigger deal than Gonzaga and Amherst. You can say his college resume doesn't matter but if you actually looked into it you'll see 95% of the NBA greats performed better than he did.

[John8204]

1) Shaq and Hakeem are interchangeable as far as rankings. In fact, I've said on here multiple times that I don't really do rankings.

Shaq came into a great situation, Hakeem came into a rebuild. We seem to agree on Hakeem and Shaq being close together in the rankings.


Stockton at no point in time was ever a MVP level player

I think Chris Paul is very close in rankings to Shaq, they are basically at the same positions on all-time lists (outside top five for their position). Now it is true Stockton didn't get the media love that Malone but we have historical perspective. Malone was chasing Kareem he was one of only 5 guys that was near 30K in points. At the time Malone was more valuable but we have historical perspective now...we know what Stockton did was much tougher (putting up 13+ APG per season, playing 82 games year after year). I don't rank guys in tiers I go generation and position.


I've also made plenty of posts to

And yet here I am still speaking to you, not insulting you, listening to you and addressing your points. What is a good faith conversation in your eyes? I have no problem or issue with people ranking Shaq over Stockton, but I don't agree with it. I do have an issue with your inability to stay on topic. You seem to want to create some sort of NBA algebra X might have beaten Y but what about C. You don't do rankings you do tiers...well Shaq, Stockton, Hakeem, and CPIII are all basically within 10 spots alltime in my opinion. Seems to be what you want.


I've done it before. But this idea that Stockton is ahead of Shaq, or that Shaq isn't a top 20 player is where you get into straight trolling bullshit. I've told you before, the critiques you have on Shaq are valid points if someone is arguing that he's the GOAT. Those little nitpicks are what keep him out of THAT conversation. You go to the extreme end and say he's not even a top 20 all-time player and at this point, I think you enjoy the attention it brings you, regardless of your whining about being insulted.


I don't enjoy the attention, I enjoy the validation that it's so hard for most of you to talk about facts. I think the difference between my feelings on the situation over yours is I don't exclude generations of players. I believe you are I are likely around the same age the difference is I don't add extra weight to players of that generation.


2) I think you mean 93-06, not 93-96 but out of those players, this is where you are disingenuous. Where those players were in their careers is more important than just throwing out their names. Alonzo Mourning was a role player with Shaq, after his kidney issues, WELL past his prime. Rodman's best days were well behind him as well. Payton was 36 and on the decline,


How many of those names did Hakeem play with during his good years and how many during his decline. You choose to exclude the 06 and later Shaq which would include, Nash, Stoudamire, Lebron, Pierce, Garnett, Allen, and Rondo. You want it both ways, you want to ignore the context of Shaq's later teammates but then use Hakeem at the end of his career. Here are the teams Shaq was on during his MVP "years"

Orlando - Penny, Grant, Scott, Anderson
Los Angeles - Glen Rice, Derek Harper, Derek Fisher, Kobe Bryant, Eddie Jones, Nick Van Exel, Gary Payton, Karl Malone, Mitch Richmond,
Miami - Gary Payton, Jayson Williams, Dwanye Wade, Alonzo Mourning, Eddie Jones, Steve Smith, Christian Laetner, and Antonie Walker

You going to tell me that Stockton or Hakeem had anywhere near that level and access to talent that Shaq had during his career. The man had Pat Riley and Jerry West building teams around him to get to titles.


The only real difference makers you're listing there based on what they were at that point are Penny, Kobe and Wade. Which 'championship level' teams did he leave to play with MVPs outside of Lebron and Nash( when he was well past his prime)? When he left the Heat they got bounced in the first round by the Bulls. When he left the Lakers Wade was a 2nd year player, he hadn't established himself as a superstar until Shaq got there ( and they possibly go all the way their very first year if Wade doesn't get injured against the Pistons, the same team that smacked the Lakers the year before). The other part that is disingenuous about just throwing out Penny, Wade and Kobe's names, is none of those guys were guaranteed superstars when they paired with Shaq. They were all young, promising talents that showed potential,

Orlando won 60 games the season before he left, Lakers won 57. Also Penny, Wade, and Kobe were not these young prospects when they played with Shaq. Penny made the 96 Olympic Team, Kobe was offered the 00 one, and Wade made the 04 team. It doesn't really pass the mustard to claim that they weren't that great but also they were good enough to make the "dream teams". You don't ask promising players to play on the National team, you pick great players to play on the national team.


but that still had to be realized on the court. You, and others, talk as if Kobe joining the Lakers in 1996 was guaranteed to produce something. He was a project coming into the NBA out of high school. Perhaps prodigious in talent and projected to be an all-star but that still had to be realized on the court and there's no guarantee it works out. Hell, MJ wasn't projected to be what he became coming into the NBA. People like to argue this shit like it was written in the stars.


In 2 years he was an All-Star in 3 years he made the MVP cut and 4 years he was on Olympic shortlist. Calling him a project is a bit of a stretch. Also let's not act like MJ wasn't a big deal, the guy was coming off a national championship and an Olympic gold medal you are talking about him like he was Jokic or Giannis and nobody saw him coming.



3) Shaq had one year with Chris Jackson,Jackson was a sophomore with Shaq as the freshman. His 2nd year when he was player of the year, Jackson was in the NBA. Hakeem had two years of Drexler as well as Michael Young who was the teams leading scorer his final year. I don't see what relevance college has in a conversation about who the greatest NBA players are. Alot of great NBA players did nothing in college, and alot of great college players who won did nothing in the NBA.

You were the one who said if Shaq had a great guard he would have won...he had a great guard he didn't win. The only all-timers I've seen with worse collegiate records are John Stockton who played for Gonzaga and Julius Erving who played for Amherst. LSU kinda a bigger deal than Gonzaga and Amherst. You can say his college resume doesn't matter but if you actually looked into it you'll see 95% of the NBA greats performed better than he did.

[Baller234]

I don't think Hakeem and Shaq are interchangeable. I don't really think there's a case for Shaq unfortunately.

The gap is really small, he's the best center Hakeem ever faced, but my eyes never told me he was better.

[Phoenix]

snipped due to exceeding word limit

PART 1

1) Shaq didn't come into a great situation, what on earth are you talking about?? The Magic won 21 games the year before Shaq arrived. How is that a great situation but Hakeem joining Ralph Sampson before he got injured is a rebuild? Also, how are we in agreement that Hakeem and Shaq are close in the rankings? Where do you have Hakeem ranked, because you're on record as Shaq being out of your top 20.

2) Even from a historical perspective POV, the only people in the history of the NBA with more points than Malone are Lebron and Kareem. Kobe never got there. Durant may not. Who said Malone was chasing Kareem? Has he stated that was his intent goal? You talk about Stockton playing 82 games for 20 years, you realize Malone basically did the same thing right? He played 19 seasons, ten 82 games, five 81 games, two 80 games, the lockout year he played 49 out of 50, and his final year he was injured and played 42. Outside of that final season, Malone was every bit the iron-man Stockton was, in a more physically demanding role to boot. You do realize that before Lebron and KD came along, Malone was the only guy who averaged 11 seasons straight of 25ppg, right? Kareem didn't do that. Jordan didn't do that( mostly because he retired, but the point remains).

3) You want a cookie for talking to me? If you choose to keep responding that's on you. I could just as easily ignore you, and that's on me. But I'm going to address you however I choose to address you whenever I choose to do so. You can either deal with that reality, or ignore me, but my pattern of talking to you isn't going to change because you don't like being called a troll. A good faith conversation is when you don't make intellectually dishonest talking points like saying Shaq played with Alonzo Mourning who is an all-star, when the version of Zo Shaq played with was very far from being an all-star. So you say I have an issue staying on topic. I stay very much on topic. You just make sweeping statements or throw names on a page without any sort of context, so this is where it comes in that you're either not good at arguing or you're trolling.

4) Many of us deal in facts here. The point is, what conclusions are drawn from those facts. Shaq was an MVP level player. John Stockton wasn't. That's not an opinion. it's facts based on Shaq literally winning an MVP and routinely being an MVP candidate based on rankings, and Stockton not being one. What's in question here is whose set of facts better convey a more realistic position based on common opinion. MVPs, Finals MVPs, all-nba awards, all-stars, stat averages are the things the basketball community has determined most convey who the greatest players are. Net outcomes. Of course those things require context as well, but generally those who check those boxes are considered the cream of the crop. Shaq has all of those things to be in the conversation. You're here with an extreme position using other criteria to go against the common opinion. Vorp, winshares, plus/minus etc etc. Yes they're 'facts', but they're facts that taken at face value can lead to unintended consequences. Unless you want to argue that someone like James Harden is a top 15 player, because your 'facts' would actually draw that conclusion in the same way you're using it to prop up Stockton. If I wanted to take those categories literally, James Harden should be ranked over someone like Kobe because he's ahead of him in those areas. Unintended consequences. But then you throw in a bunch of other things and then it just becomes a jumbled mess of inconsistencies that just falls apart the more you try to explain it. My advice to you, whatever you choose to do with it, stick with tier rankings like I do. Because the way you actually like to view these things actually lend themselves to ranking guys in tiers than trying to rank in sequence. Stockton is 16th, Shaq is 22nd etc etc. Nah, your arguing logic doesn't support ranking like that. Obviously can't tell you what to do, but it honestly makes more sense with how you judge these things. And I get it, as you said before, you like the validation because we don't engage in facts as you say, which is false .You enjoy being the outsider with your Shaq take. That's your validation and your motivation, a sense that someone is acknowledging anything you have to say, by saying John Stockton is better than Shaq or that Shaq is not top 20. For you, for your ego, saying Shaq is better than Stockton or Shaq is a top 10 player wouldn't serve you, because that opinion just falls in line with everyone elses. Anyone who claims to enjoy validation for whatever reason on an internet message board is missing it in real life. Let me remind you of this post you made a few years ago:

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?510011-My-issues-with-Shaq-as-an-quot-all-time-quot-great

You're aware enough of the controversy of your view on the topic to make a thread about it. You know the response it would get, and you're not interested in what anyone else has to say about it. 3ball does the same shit. You want all of us to know this is what you think, as boldly and loudly as possible. Because otherwise, nobody here would know or care about your existence.

5) Are you really this dense? You do realize I was playing YOUR game there. I listed those names and literally said WHERE THOSE PLAYERS ARE IN THEIR CAREERS IS MORE IMPORTANT THAN JUST PUTTING NAMES ON A PAGE. You literally just listed off a bunch of names like Alonzo Mourning, Gary Payton, Rodman.... those guys were WELL past their prime when Shaq played with them. This is what I mean by arguing in good faith.....you don't. Period. So how the fukk are you now trying to criticize me for doing the shit that you do?! :oldlol: Especially when I made a point of SAYING that I was being flippant and just threw out a bunch of names and ignored context. I didn't exclude 06( really 07), Shaq was past his MVP days by then, and not only was Shaq near 40 on the Celtics, Garnett, Allen and Pierce were all past their all-star days as well. So, when I listed off those players like Vince Carter I'M AWARE that would be a stupid arguing point because Hakeem was at the end of his career in 02. AGAIN, I did that because YOU are the one who throws out names without the context of what the players were at that point in their careers. You did the same shit a few weeks ago arguing that the Pistons 89 title carries value because they 'beat HOFers' in Mchale, Parish and Dennis Johnson ignoring that those guys were all at the tail-end of their primes or out of them completely, while ignoring that the Pistons themselves had HOFers in Isiah, Dumars and Rodman who were all in their primes. Or you say they beat 'Jordan and Pippen' in 89 as if Pippen wasn't a 2nd year player and not even remotely close to his prime yet. This is the shit you do, you've been called on it enough and you keep doing it, so you're either dense..or a troll. Or both, then cry when you get insulted which is also part of your schtick. If you're close to the same age as me, I find that hard to believe because nobody my age is as thin-skinned as you present.

[Phoenix]

PART 2

6) Orlando won 60 games and lost in the ECFs. The Lakers lost 4-1 in the finals and if you were following the controversy surrounding the team at that point, you'd know why Shaq left. It had basically become a 'him or me' situation with Kobe.

When I talk about Penny, Wade and Kobe as prospects, I mean COMING INTO THE NBA. This is where the lines between you trolling and just being dense become blurred. Shaq joined Wade in his 2nd season. Wade was pretty much the only one out of the 3 that we had some kind of idea of where he was trending( his rookie year). Kobe joined Shaq as a rookie out of high school, and averaged 7 points off the bench. Because he maxed out and became a star after 4 years doesn't change the reality that he wasn't predicted to be a top 9-12 player ever coming into the NBA. Ditto for Penny, who joined the Magic with Shaq already on the team. Whose to say back in 95 that he didn't go the way of Ben Simmons? Him being on the 96 Dream team has nothing to do with how good people thought he would be once he actually entered the league. Again, you're arguing with the benefit of hindsight as to what they became. WE DID NOT know how good those guys would be when they came into the league. Jordan was projected to be a perennial all-star but nobody knew when he came in that he was gonna end up the GOAT. Multiple people over the years are on record as saying they knew Jordan would be good, maybe even great, but not THAT. I don't think you grasp that only a select few people have come into the NBA with ridiculous levels of hype, at least in the last 40 years. Shaq in 92. Lebron in 03. Wemby in 23. You could probably put Zion in that category but you see how that's played out.

7) I didn't say Shaq would win with Chris Jackson. I said if you paired prime Shaq with a star guard they're a contender. So to spell it out for you, if you had 91 and 92 Shaq who was the college player of the year playing next to Chris Jackson, he'd probably have done better in the NCAA. Again, Shaq was a freshman and had one year of Chris Jackson in 90. If anything, that's more on Chris Jackson than Shaq that year as to what they did in college. His 2nd and 3rd years were when he was actually elite in college( same as Hakeem), but that version of Shaq didn't play with Jackson. You couldn't even name one guy Shaq had with him his final two years of college. So again, the lines between you being dense or trolling is obscured, because you have an annoying habit of talking around what is being said, or misrepresenting what was said. This is a serious question. Are you a native English speaker? As in, is it your first language? Because that would explain why you seem to fundamentally misunderstand the context of what is being said.

[Phoenix]

People insult you when you make blatant troll statements, what a shock :rolleyes: I don't engage in legitimate debates with trolls, anyone doing a modicum of research can see Shaq was more impactful than ****ing Stockton. https://xrapm.com/table_pages/RAPM_29y.html Here's a stat that is far more comprehensive than the ones he listed which are just box score based, and lo and behold Shaq is ahead of Stockton. :rolleyes:

And before that idiot says this stat proves Stockton is top 10 or whatever, learn to interpret stats. It's a measure of how well you play your role more than anything else, Stockton simply didn't have the same responsibilities of many other superstars because he wasn't asked to score much. Plus he was a pretty bad playoff dropper, the opposite of Shaq.

I'm to the point of thinking he's actually a worse troll than 3ball. Because John plays it completely straight-faced. He'll say shit like Shaq joining the 21 win Magic is a 'great situation' while Hakeem starting his career off with Ralph Sampson is a 'rebuild' lol. Dude is shameless. Sampson and Hakeem were the original Twin Towers and probably would have won a few titles if the former had stayed healthy, considering they made the finals in their 2nd year, took out the DEFENDING CHAMPION LAKERS in 5 games and took a GOAT level Celtics team 6 games.

[ShawkFactory]

Well as I've said before for me the trio of Hakeem/Shaq/Robinson are all neck and neck. And David Robinson actually has better numbers than those two at certain points. Part of this is the eye test because we saw a healthy Shaq compete against an older Hakeem and Olajuwon swept him. Hakeem has better variety of accounting numbers than Shaq

Hakeem
Points - 16
Rebounds - 15
Steals -11
Blocks - 1

Shaq
Points - 11
Rebounds - 16
Blocks - - 9

Now why are Hakeem's numbers in win/shares, VORP, etc lower than Shaq's. Well I think the reasonable answer would be Shaq team hoped to play with MVP's and Hakeem spent the majority of his career with one franchise. Had Hakeem played with four MVP's perhaps his team success would have been better. Also when you look at Defensive win shares, Shaq is 12th amongst centers, Hakeem is 4th. Shaq is actually next to Stockton in Defensive Win Shares...but Stockton is the 2nd highest PG on that list behine Kidd.

The final thing I would say that Hakeem has over Shaq is the comparison between what they did in college. Olajuwon made the final four and the championship game while Shaq couldn't even crack the sweet sixteen.

This is an absolutely wild post :lol

Cooper Flagg made the final four and Kevin Durant didn't. The Great White Hope is off to a great start!

[Phoenix]

This is an absolutely wild post :lol

Cooper Flagg made the final four and Kevin Durant didn't. The Great White Hope is off to a great start!

He's a classic troll. First he sets up arbitrary markers to exclude the player he's arguing against, even if those markers end up making cases for someone else that he didn't intend. Then he backtracks when you point out the fallacy and tapdances around what you're saying to take the conversation elsewhere. He does it enough to where you then call him a troll, then he plays the victim role and says 'why are you attacking me? I'm arguing with #facts and you can't.' Never mind that in most cases you are using fact based info yourself. Its like, to use a geographic analogy, you started the conversation in America but by the time you're finished you end up in eastern Europe.

This is what arguing with this dude amounts to:

Jackass8204: John Stockton is ahead of Shaq on the all-time list

You: Shaq won MVP, 2 scoring titles, 3 FMVPs, 4 rings, 14 time all-NBA.. Stockton was never an MVP level player

Jackass8204: Yes but Stockton is ahead of him in VORP and Win shares

You: Ok, but career VORP is really an accumulated stat and not really indicative of comparing two players in a vacuum. Plus by that reasoning Chris Paul and James Harden are ahead of Shaq and Shaq is ahead of Hakeem

Jackass8204: Well they're close in my rankings, but James Harden averaged over 30 and Hakeem swept Shaq

You: Um ok, Shaq had a year of 29.7 if you want to be pedantic, two years of 29ppg, and averaged over 30 in multiple finals runs. Plus Hakeem never averaged over 30 either and Shaq was 23 facing him at his peak

Jackass8204: Yes but Hakeem made it to the final four. Also some of those Laker playoff runs officiating was questionable so I can't give him full credit for those titles. That's why I have Kobe over him

You: Wait, if the titles are tainted for Shaq wouldn't they also be tainted for Kobe? They were on the same team

Jackass8204: Kobe won two titles without Shaq and he averaged 30 in a season

You: Why do you keep harping on 30ppg? Stockton never averaged that

Jackass8204: No but Stockton has multiple 13 assist seasons plus he beat Shaq in the playoffs 8-1

You: Stockton beat him? Wasn't Malone the guy averaging 30 and 10 in those matchups? How did 'Stockton beat Shaq'?

Jackass8204: Look I'm entitled to my opinion. Plus Shaq left two championship contenders

You: Ok, but you have Lebron in your top 4. Didn't he do the same thing?

Jackass8204: Yes but Lebron has 4 MVPs, Shaq only has 1

You: Ok so if MVPs are now important, why is Stockton ahead of Shaq? You're a troll dude.

Jackass8204: I'm using #facts to make my argument, why are you insulting me? :cry:

This is 3ball behavior, except Jackass8204 ends it by crying victim when you call him out. Actually its worse because I think 3ball operates with some level of self-awareness about what he's doing. This dude plays it completely straight-faced and is so slippery he must have been a regular at Diddy parties. I'd actually respect him more if he just said he doesn't like Shaq personally, as opposed to the retarded mental gymnastics he resorts to.

[RRR3]

He's a classic troll. First he sets up arbitrary markers to exclude the player he's arguing against, even if those markers end up making cases for someone else that he didn't intend. Then he backtracks when you point out the fallacy and tapdances around what you're saying to take the conversation elsewhere. He does it enough to where you then call him a troll, then he plays the victim role and says 'why are you attacking me? I'm arguing with #facts and you can't.' Never mind that in most cases you are using fact based info yourself. Its like, to use a geographic analogy, you started the conversation in America but by the time you're finished you end up in eastern Europe.

This is what arguing with this dude amounts to:

Jackass8204: John Stockton is ahead of Shaq on the all-time list

You: Shaq won MVP, 2 scoring titles, 3 FMVPs, 4 rings, 14 time all-NBA.. Stockton was never an MVP level player

Jackass8204: Yes but Stockton is ahead of him in VORP and Win shares

You: Ok, but career VORP is really an accumulated stat and not really indicative of comparing two players in a vacuum. Plus by that reasoning Chris Paul and James Harden are ahead of Shaq and Shaq is ahead of Hakeem

Jackass8204: Well they're close in my rankings, but James Harden averaged over 30 and Hakeem swept Shaq

You: Um ok, Shaq had a year of 29.7 if you want to be pedantic, two years of 29ppg, and averaged over 30 in multiple finals runs. Plus Hakeem never averaged over 30 either and Shaq was 23 facing him at his peak

Jackass8204: Yes but Hakeem made it to the final four. Also some of those Laker playoff runs officiating was questionable so I can't give him full credit for those titles. That's why I have Kobe over him

You: Wait, if the titles are tainted for Shaq wouldn't they also be tainted for Kobe? They were on the same team

Jackass8204: Kobe won two titles without Shaq and he averaged 30 in a season

You: Why do you keep harping on 30ppg? Stockton never averaged that

Jackass8204: No but Stockton has multiple 13 assist seasons plus he beat Shaq in the playoffs 8-1

You: Stockton beat him? Wasn't Malone the guy averaging 30 and 10 in those matchups? How did 'Stockton beat Shaq'?

Jackass8204: Look I'm entitled to my opinion. Plus Shaq left two championship contenders

You: Ok, but you have Lebron in your top 4. Didn't he do the same thing?

Jackass8204: Yes but Lebron has 4 MVPs, Shaq only has 1

You: Ok so if MVPs are now important, why is Stockton ahead of Shaq? You're a troll dude.

Jackass8204: I'm using #facts to make my argument, why are you insulting me? :cry:

This is 3ball behavior, except Jackass8204 ends it by crying victim when you call him out. Actually its worse because I think 3ball operates with some level of self-awareness about what he's doing. This dude plays it completely straight-faced and is so slippery he must have been a regular at Diddy parties. I'd actually respect him more if he just said he doesn't like Shaq personally, as opposed to the retarded mental gymnastics he resorts to.
He's going to have an absolute meltdown about you insulting him now, watch.

[Phoenix]

He's going to have an absolute meltdown about you insulting him now, watch.

I can only hope :lol

[SouBeachTalents]

You guys need to stop insulting John8204, he's entitled to his opinion.

[RRR3]

You guys need to stop insulting John8204, he's entitled to his opinion.
True it’s completely reasonable to think Shaq isn’t top 20, the guy wasn’t even good enough to make the final 4 ffs.