Chris Paul All-time Ranking?

[beasted]

As Chris Paul puts the finishing touches on a 20 year career, and also since he stated next year is his final season, there's a good chance he will wrap up his career without winning a ring.

It made me start to think about where he ranks. It feels like CP3 is very highly regarded amongst fans, almost too high.

I said in a recent thread that Paul feels as though he is the highest ranked player in NBA history that has never won an MVP, Finals MVP, title, nor played in more than 1 Finals.

Is that true? I know it is very specific criteria, but when I think of the others who fit that criteria (Ewing, McGrady, Carmelo, etc) It seems like people will find some excuse to have him higher ranked than them, and sometimes way higher ranked. I just don't get it honestly, but looking to hear back from others.

[SouBeachTalents]

I do feel on one hand CP3 gets a touch overrated, but the slander he gets, people claiming it's insane to rank him ahead of Isiah or Stockton is also ridiculous :lol

I'd have CP3 ranked around 30th all time, a little ahead of Ewing but roughly in the same tier. McGrady was (obv) an amazing talent and peaked higher as a player, but he has literally zero argument to be ranked ahead of CP3 all time. Melo doesn't even belong in the discussion, CP3 was clearly better and has a much better resume despite not winning a title

[Full Court]

As Chris Paul puts the finishing touches on a 20 year career, and also since he stated next year is his final season, there's a good chance he will wrap up his career without winning a ring.

It made me start to think about where he ranks. It feels like CP3 is very highly regarded amongst fans, almost too high.

I said in a recent thread that Paul feels as though he is the highest ranked player in NBA history that has never won an MVP, Finals MVP, title, nor played in more than 1 Finals.

Is that true? I know it is very specific criteria, but when I think of the others who fit that criteria (Ewing, McGrady, Carmelo, etc) It seems like people will find some excuse to have him higher ranked than them, and sometimes way higher ranked. I just don't get it honestly, but looking to hear back from others.

Yep, we see that on here by some of the lower IQ posters like 1987_Lakers and stinky Axe.



I do feel on one hand CP3 gets a touch overrated, but the slander he gets, people claiming it's insane to rank him ahead of Isiah or Stockton is also ridiculous :lol

I'd have CP3 ranked around 30th all time, a little ahead of Ewing but roughly in the same tier. McGrady was (obv) an amazing talent and peaked higher as a player, but he has literally zero argument to be ranked ahead of CP3 all time. Melo doesn't even belong in the discussion, CP3 was clearly better and has a much better resume despite not winning a title

It is.

[ralph_i_el]

He's tied for the 2nd most all star appearances for a point guard with Oscar and Isiah. Only Bob Cousy has more. Curry will likely join this group of 12x all stars next year. He did this during an elite era for point guards.

[beasted]

I do feel on one hand CP3 gets a touch overrated, but the slander he gets, people claiming it's insane to rank him ahead of Isiah or Stockton is also ridiculous :lol

I'd have CP3 ranked around 30th all time, a little ahead of Ewing but roughly in the same tier. McGrady was (obv) an amazing talent and peaked higher as a player, but he has literally zero argument to be ranked ahead of CP3 all time. Melo doesn't even belong in the discussion, CP3 was clearly better and has a much better resume despite not winning a title
I can already tell your list is insanely skewed to modern basketball and will have the Gervins of the world in the 50+ territory.

And to me, that's insane. You'll have a 4 time scoring champ a good 25+ slots worse than CP3 most likely. Nasty work.

[Baller234]

He might be the last great PG.

[1987_Lakers]

I have him behind, Curry, Magic, & Big O, ahead of all the rest.

There has never been a more complete PG than CP3.

Next tier would be....

5. Nash
6. Stoctkon
7. Frazier
8. Kidd
9. Isiah
10. GP

Isiah & GP are overrated to me.

[1987_Lakers]

Yep, we see that on here by some of the lower IQ posters like 1987_Lakers and stinky Axe.




It is.

Yet, you can't make a single argument as to why prime Stockton was better than CP3.

If you have Stockton ranked ahead of CP3, that is fine, but longevity would be the only reason why. And you don't want to admit that because of your anti LeBron agenda. :lol

[Phoenix]

Someone will say he's 28th. Another will say 35th. Then we'll spend alot of time arguing as if those numbers are further apart than they really are.

[1987_Lakers]

The years Isiah won a title. Not even including Magic & Stockton.

'89
Isiah Thomas: 18.2 pt, 8.3 ast, 3.4 rebounds, .528 TS%, 17.1 PER
Kevin Johnson: 20.4 pt, 12.2 ast, 4.2 reb, .597 TS%, 20.5 PER
Terry Porter: 17.7 pt, 9.5 ast, 4.5 reb, .555 TS%, 17.7 PER
Mark Price: 18.9 pt, 8.4 ast, 3.0 reb, .623 TS%, 20.6 PER
Fat Lever: 19.8 pt, 7.9 ast, 9.3 reb, .513 TS%, 20.6 PER

'90
Isiah Thomas: 18.4 pt, 9.4 reb, 3.8 reb, .501 TS%, 17.3 PER
Kevin Johnson: 22.5 pt, 11.4 ast, 3.6 reb, .585 TS%, 22.8 PER
Terry Porter: 17.6 pt, 9.1 ast, 3.4 reb, .597 TS%, 20.0 PER
Mark Price: 19.6 pt, 9.1 ast, 3.4 reb, .589 TS%, 21.1 PER
Fat Lever: 18.3 pt, 6.5 ast, 9.3 reb, .504 TS%, 19.9 PER

Even lost out FMVP to Dumars in '89 I believe. And we all know those Detroit teams were mostly known for their defense, Isiah was not a defender and to top it off he had a streaky jumper. People acting like Isiah was some top tier superstar when Detroit won those titles are sadly mistaken.

[beasted]

Someone will say he's 28th. Another will say 35th. Then we'll spend alot of time arguing as if those numbers are further apart than they really are.

Is he the best non-mvp, non-title-winner, who has only been to 1 Finals?

[Full Court]

Yet, you can't make a single argument as to why prime Stockton was better than CP3.

If you have Stockton ranked ahead of CP3, that is fine, but longevity would be the only reason why. And you don't want to admit that because of your anti LeBron agenda. :lol

It's pretty simple. Stockton was the best during a period of better competition at his position. Stockton is a legend. Paul was be largely forgotten when he retires.

[SouBeachTalents]

I can already tell your list is insanely skewed to modern basketball and will have the Gervins of the world in the 50+ territory.

And to me, that's insane. You'll have a 4 time scoring champ a good 25+ slots worse than CP3 most likely. Nasty work.
You genuinely made this assumption off of nothing :lol For the record I have Wilt & Russell top 5 and West & Oscar top 15, so big time swing and a miss Nostradumbass.

[RRR3]

It's pretty simple. Stockton was the best during a period of better competition at his position. Stockton is a legend. Paul was be largely forgotten when he retires.
Emotional arguments, meanwhile he offered facts.



Yikes.



Dull Court moment.

[1987_Lakers]

It's pretty simple. Stockton was the best during a period of better competition at his position. Stockton is a legend. Paul was be largely forgotten when he retires.

It's amazing how you still haven't given any of us any specific reasons.

"Better competition, he's a legend, CP3 will be forgotten" :lol

Come on man, that's something a kid would say.

[RRR3]

It's amazing how you still haven't given any of us any specific reasons.

"Better competition, he's a legend, CP3 will be forgotten" :lol

Come on man, that's something a kid would say.
Better competition is pretty dubious anyways, CP3 has played at the same time as the following PGs: Steph Curry, James Harden, Russell Westbrook, Jason Kidd, Steve Nash, Luka Doncic, Damian Lillard, Tony Parker, Kyrie Irving, John Wall, Deron Williams, Kyle Lowry, Chauncey Billups, Mike Conley, Kemba Walker, Isaiah Thomas, Derrick Rose, Rajon Rondo, Jrue Holiday, Jalen Brunson, SGA....

[Full Court]

Better competition is pretty dubious anyways, CP3 has played at the same time as the following PGs: Steph Curry, James Harden, Russell Westbrook, Jason Kidd, Steve Nash, Luka Doncic, Damian Lillard, Tony Parker, Kyrie Irving, John Wall, Deron Williams, Kyle Lowry, Chauncey Billups, Mike Conley, Kemba Walker, Isaiah Thomas, Derrick Rose, Rajon Rondo, Jrue Holiday, Jalen Brunson, SGA....

You're really reaching with some of those. John Wall? Deron Williams? Jrue Holiday? Mike Conley? Yeah, they're good, they're not in the same league as Stockton or Paul.

And you've listed at least four from Paul's generation who are better than him: Curry, Harden, Kidd, and SGA. You can make a case for Rose, Irving, and Nash too.

The only PGs better than Stockton in his generation were Magic and Thomas.

[1987_Lakers]

You're really reaching with some of those. John Wall? Deron Williams? Jrue Holiday? Mike Conley? Yeah, they're good, they're not in the same league as Stockton or Paul.

And you've listed at least four from Paul's generation who are better than him: Curry, Harden, Kidd, and SGA. You can make a case for Rose, Irving, and Nash too.

The only PGs better than Stockton in his generation were Magic and Thomas.

Past prime Nash & Kidd were not better than Paul.

Rose & Irving?

Paul was an old man when SGA was coming up.

:oldlol:

[Full Court]

Past prime Nash & Kidd were not better than Paul.

Rose & Irving?

Paul was an old man when SGA was coming up.

:oldlol:

That was a reply to RRR3. He brought up SGA lol.

Rose's peak was unquestionably better than Paul. Why would I be comparing Paul to PAST PRIME Nash and Kidd?

:biggums:

[1987_Lakers]

That was a reply to RRR3. He brought up SGA lol.

Rose's peak was unquestionably better than Paul. Why would I be comparing Paul to PAST PRIME Nash and Kidd?

:biggums:

His only statement was that CP3 played against those guys during his career.

You on the other hand made it seem like past prime Kidd & Nash were better than Paul. Your specific statement "From Paul's generation", implying CP3's prime.

Rose just has that 2011 season where he won MVP, which many people feel was a weak year for MVP candidates. 2011 was the only year he even made an All-NBA team. Pretty damn disingenuous to say he was better than CP3.

To top it off you named Kyrie as someone "arguably" better than CP3.

:roll:

[RRR3]

Whenever Dull Court tries to argue he just says retarded stuff and gets made fun of. That’s why he normally just trolls. Poor guy embarrasses himself when he tries to talk ball. Kyrie over CP3 :yaohappy:

[Full Court]

His only statement was that CP3 played against those guys during his career.

You on the other hand made it seem like past prime Kidd & Nash were better than Paul. Your specific statement "From Paul's generation", implying CP3's prime.

Rose just has that 2011 season where he won MVP, which many people feel was a weak year for MVP candidates. 2011 was the only year he even made an All-NBA team. Pretty damn disingenuous to say he was better than CP3.

To top it off you named Kyrie as someone "arguably" better than CP3.

:roll:


Whenever Dull Court tries to argue he just says retarded stuff and gets made fun of. That’s why he normally just trolls. Poor guy embarrasses himself when he tries to talk ball. Kyrie over CP3 :yaohappy:

:roll: Bitches are SHOOK.

Peak Rose was better than CP, and that's not even up for debate.

Kyrie carried his team to a championship. Meanwhile Paul is a notorious choker.

[ralph_i_el]

You're really reaching with some of those. John Wall? Deron Williams? Jrue Holiday? Mike Conley? Yeah, they're good, they're not in the same league as Stockton or Paul.

And you've listed at least four from Paul's generation who are better than him: Curry, Harden, Kidd, and SGA. You can make a case for Rose, Irving, and Nash too.

The only PGs better than Stockton in his generation were Magic and Thomas.

Because it was a weaker era for PGs....

[ralph_i_el]

That was a reply to RRR3. He brought up SGA lol.

Rose's peak was unquestionably better than Paul. Why would I be comparing Paul to PAST PRIME Nash and Kidd?

:biggums:

Unquestionably? 07-09 CP3 was better than MVP Rose. 2nd in MVP voting to Kobe impresses me about as much as Rose winning MVP as the 5th best player in the league.

[ralph_i_el]

Actually, **** it. CP3 was better than Rose when Rose won MVP. CP3 was better by every single metric if we go peak to peak. If you'd take peak Rose over peak CP3, you're on crack.

[ShawkFactory]

:roll: Bitches are SHOOK.

Peak Rose was better than CP, and that's not even up for debate.

Kyrie carried his team to a championship. Meanwhile Paul is a notorious choker.

Stop.

[1987_Lakers]

I don't think I've ever heard anyone say peak Rose was better than CP3.

Full court living in a fantasy. :lol

[1987_Lakers]

Because it was a weaker era for PGs....

I'm pretty sure there was around a 3-4 year period in the late 80's & early 90's where Kevin Johnson was considered better than Stockton by a shit ton of fans.

Stockton never really separated himself from the other point guards, even after Magic retired. It's his longevity as to why he is so highly regarded today. Stockton played against peak Magic and later down the road played against Jason Kidd, all while producing at a high level.

[tontoz]

I would say CP3 is a top 5 pg all time, certainly better than Isiah who is one of the most overrated players ive ever seen.

[1987_Lakers]

I would say CP3 is a top 5 pg all time, certainly better than Isiah who is one of the most overrated players ive ever seen.

Agree. His overall scoring to me is kind of mediocre. He could take over a game with scoring in ways Stockton & Kidd could not, but his overall efficiency is lackluster, Look at his '89 playoff run when Detroit won a title. 41 FG% & 48 TS%, that is Iverson level on less volume. :lol

I think a lot of that has to do with his size & the fact that he didn't have a consistent jumper which not many people realize. Career 76% FT shooter which is mediocre for a PG. I remember watching the famous Hoop Dreams documentary from the 90's, and the high school coach who coached Isiah was telling one of his present players at the time that he was already a better shooter than Isiah.

[tpols]

Below Magic, Curry, Jason Kidd, Isiah, and Steve Nash. So close to top 5 point guard.

[beasted]

Below Magic, Curry, Jason Kidd, Isiah, and Steve Nash. So close to top 5 point guard.
This is what a lot of people say, basically that he's ahead of every PG without an MVP and/or Finals MVP.

[tpols]

This is what a lot of people say, basically that he's ahead of every PG without an MVP and/or Finals MVP.

If he didn't underperform vs Milwaukee or get injured with Houston and LA in the playoffs a title or 2 couldve been won. But thats just what happened. He still had a great career.

[1987_Lakers]

Agree. His overall scoring to me is kind of mediocre. He could take over a game with scoring in ways Stockton & Kidd could not, but his overall efficiency is lackluster, Look at his '89 playoff run when Detroit won a title. 41 FG% & 48 TS%, that is Iverson level on less volume. :lol

I think a lot of that has to do with his size & the fact that he didn't have a consistent jumper which not many people realize. Career 76% FT shooter which is mediocre for a PG. I remember watching the famous Hoop Dreams documentary from the 90's, and the high school coach who coached Isiah was telling one of his present players at the time that he was already a better shooter than Isiah.

Dug a little deeper on that specific playoff run.

Isiah had a 1/9 shooting game vs Boston in game 3.
4/17 shooting vs the Bucks in game 1
3/18 shooting vs Chicago in game 1

Had 6 games during that run where he shot under 35%, Detroit still went 4-2 in those games. :lol

Played 17 games in that run, only had 4 games where he shot over 50%

We done with Isiah!

[j3lademaster]

Isiah is definitely a bit overrated, while Nash is underrated. The 07 Suns got truly robbed, no one can even argue that since Donaghy actually went to jail for rigging the series. Had the playoff pretender Deron Williams/ Boozer Jazz after and baby Lebron in the finals who only got there through overachieving and massive individual heroics against the Pistons. That Cavs team as a whole was trash for a finals team. Think about Nash's career in retrospect with that coveted fmvp to legitimize it. No one would question his 2 mvp's at that point despite him no better of a player than he actually was in our current timeline.

[Nowoco]

It's amazing how much difference titles make to ranking. If CP3 had two titles like Isiah, he would be no lower than #2 on any list. Maybe even ahead of Magic on some.

If Isiah didnt have two titles, he wouldn't make the top 15 point guards. Maybe even lower.

[SouBeachTalents]

Isiah is definitely a bit overrated, while Nash is underrated. The 07 Suns got truly robbed, no one can even argue that since Donaghy actually went to jail for rigging the series. Had the playoff pretender Deron Williams/ Boozer Jazz after and baby Lebron in the finals who only got there through overachieving and massive individual heroics against the Pistons. That Cavs team as a whole was trash for a finals team. Think about Nash's career in retrospect with that coveted fmvp to legitimize it. No one would question his 2 mvp's at that point despite him no better of a player than he actually was in our current timeline.
The worst part is in that Game 5 Amare (and Diaw) were suspended the Suns had an 8 point lead with under 6 minutes to go and lost by just 3 points.

You factor in the cupcakes they faced in the final 2 rounds, the '07 Spurs easily have one of weakest title runs ever.

'07 was an incredibly weak season, 3 legit contenders and one of them got destroyed by an 8 seed in the first round.

[jayfan]

It's amazing how much difference titles make to ranking. If CP3 had two titles like Isiah, he would be no lower than #2 on any list. Maybe even ahead of Magic on some.

If Isiah didnt have two titles, he wouldn't make the top 15 point guards. Maybe even lower.


But instead of having 2 titles, CP has 2 appearances - ever - in the conference finals.


:lol

[Lebron23]

Dug a little deeper on that specific playoff run.

Isiah had a 1/9 shooting game vs Boston in game 3.
4/17 shooting vs the Bucks in game 1
3/18 shooting vs Chicago in game 1

Had 6 games during that run where he shot under 35%, Detroit still went 4-2 in those games. :lol

Played 17 games in that run, only had 4 games where he shot over 50%

We done with Isiah!

And Jordan was losing to that guy.

[tontoz]

And Jordan was losing to that guy.

Isiah wasn't the guy that gave Jordan problems. It was the first team All-NBA defender guarding him, and DPOY guarding Pippen. It was Laimbeer/Mahorn/Salley guarding the paint. It was Aquirre and VJ providing instant offense.

That team was stacked.

[Phoenix]

Is he the best non-mvp, non-title-winner, who has only been to 1 Finals?

Who would be the main competitors for that 'honor'? Patrick Ewing comes to mind off the top of my head, for me he's become a bit underrated and he was really in a wrong place/time period with Jordan's Bulls and then Hakeem in 94. There's no shame in losing in either of those scenarios and at a push to answer whose better, outside of the fact that there is really little common ground to compare them I might actually lean Ewing, but CP3 tends to be rated higher and its not something I would really spend much time arguing about. Alot of people have forgotten that Ewing, Robinson and Hakeem were pretty damn close through 94 until Dream separated himself and then Shaq came along.

[j3lademaster]

The worst part is in that Game 5 Amare (and Diaw) were suspended the Suns had an 8 point lead with under 6 minutes to go and lost by just 3 points.

You factor in the cupcakes they faced in the final 2 rounds, the '07 Spurs easily have one of weakest title runs ever.

'07 was an incredibly weak season, 3 legit contenders and one of them got destroyed by an 8 seed in the first round.Probably did the Suns a favor suspending Diaw with the way he was playing lol. Jokes aside, that Amare suspension was obviously a big deal. Spurs got gifted free timeouts in the form of random ticky tack fouls whenever the Suns started to go on runs too, refs were killing Suns' momentum.

[Full Court]

His only statement was that CP3 played against those guys during his career.

You on the other hand made it seem like past prime Kidd & Nash were better than Paul. Your specific statement "From Paul's generation", implying CP3's prime.

Rose just has that 2011 season where he won MVP, which many people feel was a weak year for MVP candidates. 2011 was the only year he even made an All-NBA team. Pretty damn disingenuous to say he was better than CP3.

To top it off you named Kyrie as someone "arguably" better than CP3.

:roll:

You love to try to twist things. I said Rose had a higher peak than Paul. Which he clearly did. The problem was that his peak was pretty much....2011. He was never the same after his injury.

Bu then we get to something VERY interesting. So you use Paul being top five in MVP voting as your "proof" that he was better than Stockton.... but you discount Rose actually WINNING MVP - something Paul was never able to do.

:roll:

Of all the posters on here, did you really think that Full Court wasn't going to call you out on your BS?


:lebronamazed:

[1987_Lakers]

You love to try to twist things. I said Rose had a higher peak than Paul. Which he clearly did. The problem was that his peak was pretty much....2011. He was never the same after his injury.

Bu then we get to something VERY interesting. So you use Paul being top five in MVP voting as your "proof" that he was better than Stockton.... but you discount Rose actually WINNING MVP - something Paul was never able to do.

:roll:

Of all the posters on here, did you really think that Full Court wasn't going to call you out on your BS?


:lebronamazed:

I didn’t twist anything around. Those were your exact words. You clearly said “Paul’s generation” and then later played it off. This is a bigger blunder than your OKC is 3-1 statement.

And you still haven’t given any reasons as to why prime Stockton was better than Chris Paul. The moment you got pushed on that, you reverted back to trolling.

I think it’s pretty obvious to everywhere here you don’t know what you are talking about, I’m pretty sure even some of the CP3 doubters here are in embarrassment whenever you open your mouth, none of them have come to your aid.

[Full Court]

I didn’t twist anything around. Those were your exact words. You clearly said “Paul’s generation” and then later played it off. This is a bigger blunder than your OKC is 3-1 statement.

And you still haven’t given any reasons as to why prime Stockton was better than Chris Paul. The moment you got pushed on that, you reverted back to trolling.

I think it’s pretty obvious to everywhere here you don’t know what you are talking about, I’m pretty sure even some of the CP3 doubters here are in embarrassment whenever you open your mouth, none of them have come to your aid.

You're just bitter that Stockton spoke the truth about your hero's rings being the least meaningful rings of any all time great. Just admit it.

In fact, the only rings that are of less value than Lebron's (aside from the 2020 ring, which didn't actually count) are Durant's.

Now back to Chris Paul, he's a notorious post season choker. I penalize him for than when it comes to all time rankings. Of course, obviously you don't factor in choking, or you wouldn't have the greatest choker of all time as your supposed "GOAT". :lol


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EfZPHW_fuOI

[1987_Lakers]

And he still can't compare Stockton & CP3 and give a detailed response as to why Stockton is better.

Embarrassing :lol

[beasted]

It's amazing how much difference titles make to ranking. If CP3 had two titles like Isiah, he would be no lower than #2 on any list. Maybe even ahead of Magic on some.

If Isiah didnt have two titles, he wouldn't make the top 15 point guards. Maybe even lower.

Literally nobody would consider CP3 better than Magic with two titles. This is one of the stupidest things I've heard in a while. Without multiple MVPs and multiple titles, nobody can be close to Curry or Magic. That's the litmus test.

[beasted]

It's also a crazy reach to be talking about winning multiple titles when CP3 hasn't even been to multiple finals.

[RRR3]

It's also a crazy reach to be talking about winning multiple titles when CP3 hasn't even been to multiple finals.
Neither has Barkley, I don't see you whining about him being ranked top 20 by tons of people.

[Full Court]

And he still can't compare Stockton & CP3 and give a detailed response as to why Stockton is better.

Embarrassing :lol

^Dudley will always go with the choker. :lol Makes him feel better about his love for LeShrivel.

:lebronamazed:

[beasted]

Neither has Barkley, I don't see you whining about him being ranked top 20 by tons of people.

This stupid attempt at a counter argument transcended new heights of stupidity.

Nobody in this thread is using fantasies about Barkley to project where he would stand in all-time rankings in a made up alternate reality.

"B, bu, but if Hakeem won 4 titles he would be better than Shaq!" except he didn't win 4 titles. He didn't even lead his team to 6 Finals like Shaq did. This not even a flip of the coin hypothetical where it rewrites 1 event. This is pure fantasy rewriting several events in bulk. I think that's what irks me that it is so far from the reality of what it actually is when you change multiple events.

[k0kakw0rld]

I do feel on one hand CP3 gets a touch overrated, but the slander he gets, people claiming it's insane to rank him ahead of Isiah or Stockton is also ridiculous :lol

I'd have CP3 ranked around 30th all time, a little ahead of Ewing but roughly in the same tier. McGrady was (obv) an amazing talent and peaked higher as a player, but he has literally zero argument to be ranked ahead of CP3 all time. Melo doesn't even belong in the discussion, CP3 was clearly better and has a much better resume despite not winning a title
Isiah is a champion and a fmvp.

[1987_Lakers]

Isiah is a champion and a fmvp.

So is Wes Unseld.

[1987_Lakers]

^Dudley will always go with the choker. :lol Makes him feel better about his love for LeShrivel.

:lebronamazed:

Says the guy who has Wilt top 3 ever.

[RRR3]

This stupid attempt at a counter argument transcended new heights of stupidity.

Nobody in this thread is using fantasies about Barkley to project where he would stand in all-time rankings in a made up alternate reality.

"B, bu, but if Hakeem won 4 titles he would be better than Shaq!" except he didn't win 4 titles. He didn't even lead his team to 6 Finals like Shaq did. This not even a flip of the coin hypothetical where it rewrites 1 event. This is pure fantasy rewriting several events in bulk. I think that's what irks me that it is so far from the reality of what it actually is when you change multiple events.
Deflection. Why do you not have problems with Barkley being ranked highly?

[beasted]

Deflection. Why do you not have problems with Barkley being ranked highly?

Who says I have Barkley ranked highly? Anyone with Barkley top 20 is a total fool. For me he's behind Duncan, Malone, and Dirk at just PF.

[tpols]

Who says I have Barkley ranked highly? Anyone with Barkley top 20 is a total fool. For me he's behind Duncan, Malone, and Dirk at just PF.

Barkley was an MVP talent at a time of peak MJ and if not for John paxson you might be singing a different tune. Its crazy how role players can dictate rings sometimes.

[1987_Lakers]

Generally, I've seen Barkley on most top 25 lists. Him being behind Duncan, Malone, & Dirk is not a knock at all, all those guys are top 20 themselves, or at least have great arguments to be top 20.

Barkley's peak doesn't get talked about enough, all-time great offensive player, probably top 15 ever on that end, better than Hakeem, Malone, & Duncan on offense.

He almost won an MVP over peak MJ & Magic, actually got the most first place votes that year, but Magic still got the award

[Phoenix]

Barkley was an MVP talent at a time of peak MJ and if not for John paxson you might be singing a different tune. Its crazy how role players can dictate rings sometimes.

Maybe, it would have been a winner takes all game 7. I would have still bet on the Bulls, though.

[Phoenix]

Barkley was an MVP talent at a time of peak MJ and if not for John paxson you might be singing a different tune. Its crazy how role players can dictate rings sometimes.

Maybe, it would have been a winner takes all game 7. I would have still bet on the Bulls, though.

[Full Court]

Generally, I've seen Barkley on most top 25 lists. Him being behind Duncan, Malone, & Dirk is not a knock at all, all those guys are top 20 themselves, or at least have great arguments to be top 20.

Barkley's peak doesn't get talked about enough, all-time great offensive player, probably top 15 ever on that end, better than Hakeem, Malone, & Duncan on offense.

He almost won an MVP over peak MJ & Magic, actually got the most first place votes that year, but Magic still got the award

Hmmmmmm, so you're saying that MVPs matter? Interesting. Did you know that Derrick Rose has an MVP, while Chris Paul does not? :roll:

This is too easy.

[John8204]

Calling Chris Paul a choker is a bit of a joke, he went into the playoffs with Harden, Booker, and Griffin how did they do without him?

If Chris Paul had the talent and depth of Isiah Thomas team he would have won titles.

For PG's Magic and Oscar are 1 and 2 as those guys were 5 position players who carried their teams for a decade.

3 and 4 are Curry and Stockton, one being the best complimentary shooter of all time the other being one of the great endurance athletes to ever play the game.

5 and 6 should be Walt Frazier and Jason Kidd one guy took the worst team I had ever seen to the finals and was just the most consistent player for 15 straight seasons while Frazier balanced the hell out of those Knicks team

7 and 8 would be Isiah and CPIII, the knock on Isiah aside from the fact that he gets way too much credit for the Pistons is he only played 11 full seasons, Chris Paul is a 20 season player I think as a PG longevity should matter

9 and 10 would be Gary Payton and Tiny Archibald, Tiny was the 70's version of Oscar/Magic in that he was a team leader and his move to Boston really did launch that Celtic's 80's dynasty. Gary on the other hand did take 3 different teams to the finals during his run. I think the fact that he split time with Jason Williams in Miami was the trick to them winning.

11 and 12 would be Steve Nash and Bob Cousy, I don't really give Nash that much credit for MVP's because they were media awards and we all know why Kobe wasn't getting media awards at that time. Cousy was a legend for the Celtics but he really was just of that time player more so than a bunch of his contemporaries.

[1987_Lakers]

Hmmmmmm, so you're saying that MVPs matter? Interesting. Did you know that Derrick Rose has an MVP, while Chris Paul does not? :roll:

This is too easy.

Sure, but it's not the only factor. Nash has more MVPs than Kobe, I've never seen anyone rank him ahead of Kobe. CP3 during his prime was actually the best player on his team, unlike Stockton.

CP3 at his peak was considered a top 5 player in the league behind LeBron, Kobe, & Wade ('09), if you consider his peak 2012-2014, he was only behind LeBron & KD during that 3 year stretch, top 3. Stockton was not even cracking top 5 in any year, hell.....LeBron, Wade, Dwight, Dirk, & Durant were all considered better players than Rose in 2011.

If we are talking about primes, it isn't even a debate. CP3 was superior to Stockton, he could actually take over a game with his scoring, unlike Stockton and do it on great efficiency, he was a better defender, and during their primes he shits on Stockton in pretty much every advanced metric. We have yet to hear why you believe Stockton was better, lets hear it. Better yet...

Why do you have Wilt top 3 ever if you dislike chokers so much?

And why was Kyrie arguably better than CP3? :lol

[Nowoco]

Literally nobody would consider CP3 better than Magic with two titles. This is one of the stupidest things I've heard in a while.

Are you familiar with NBA fans?

[Baller234]

Barkley was an MVP talent at a time of peak MJ and if not for John paxson you might be singing a different tune. Its crazy how role players can dictate rings sometimes.

I love Barkley but what does "MVP talent" mean? I was too young so I couldn't tell you what people were thinking in real time, but I'm guessing that even back then nobody watched Barkley and thought he was better than Magic or Jordan. I'm sure he was exciting to watch in his own way, but I don't think anyone would have drafted him before those two. Plus you also had plenty of other great players during that 80's-90's era. Hard to say Barkley really separated himself from any of them. It's not like he was the clear #3 during those years either.

Barkley can't be top 20 all time. Too many champions, too many guys who were more dominant for longer periods of time, too many guys that were 1 of 1's during their day and had no peers.

[Full Court]

Sure, but it's not the only factor. Nash has more MVPs than Kobe, I've never seen anyone rank him ahead of Kobe. CP3 during his prime was actually the best player on his team, unlike Stockton.

CP3 at his peak was considered a top 5 player in the league behind LeBron, Kobe, & Wade ('09), if you consider his peak 2012-2014, he was only behind LeBron & KD during that 3 year stretch, top 3. Stockton was not even cracking top 5 in any year, hell.....LeBron, Wade, Dwight, Dirk, & Durant were all considered better players than Rose in 2011.

If we are talking about primes, it isn't even a debate. CP3 was superior to Stockton, he could actually take over a game with his scoring, unlike Stockton and do it on great efficiency, he was a better defender, and during their primes he shits on Stockton in pretty much every advanced metric. We have yet to hear why you believe Stockton was better, lets hear it. Better yet...

Why do you have Wilt top 3 ever if you dislike chokers so much?

And why was Kyrie arguably better than CP3? :lol

Guess what, if CP3 had played with Malone, he wouldn't have been the best on his team.

And the funny thing is, overwhelming consensus is in my favor here: https://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?t=2470826

Furthermore, you've just made yet another incorrect take. Stockton was a better defender.

[Manny98]

CP3 > Magic

That's a hill I am willing to die on

Better defender, better shooter, better ball handler, higher basketball IQ, better shooter

Elevated every star he's played with, unfortunately he had his prime year's wasted with garbage doc rivers as his coach

[Manny98]

He might be the last great PG.

Facts CP3 was a one of a kind talent who gets massively underrated because of ring culture

[tpols]

A little Ding Doing of a ting he is yea!

[1987_Lakers]

Guess what, if CP3 had played with Malone, he wouldn't have been the best on his team.

And the funny thing is, overwhelming consensus is in my favor here: https://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?t=2470826

Furthermore, you've just made yet another incorrect take. Stockton was a better defender.

Another blunder on your part. That thread you linked is talking All-time, not prime play.

And you basically ignored my other points. When was Stockton top 3 in the league like CP3 was? And I can see CP3 being better than Malone in some years or at least arguable, CP3 had a PER of 30 in 2009, that is something Karl never did. Malone's peak isn't even highly thought of anyways, he is another player who gets ranked high because of his longevity. Barkley, Hakeem, D-Rob, & even '90 Ewing all had better peaks.

And you say Stockton was the better defender, but cannot articulate why. CP3 made 7 All-Defensive First teams, compared to Stockton's 0. I would say they are closer on the defensive end than they are on the offensive end. Both top tier help defenders, but CP3 was the better man defender. When did you see CP3 get torched the way Stockton did vs Porter in 1992? CP3 was small, but built like a bull dog in his Clippers' years, he played physical defense, you could not bully him around, and he fought through screens very well. Stockton was a stick, who struggled against stronger players like Porter. Not only was CP3 more well rounded on defense, but he shits on Stockton as an offensive player, I've already stated my reasons. You on the other hand cannot.

It's amazing to me how you can't provide any points as to why Stockton was the better player in his prime. :lol

[tpols]

I'll never forget when he tried to frame Demarcus Cousins. Guy was always in trouble anyways and Chris picked on it. Hes a scumbag from a competitive perspective. Snake weasel type. Doesn't play totally straight up.

[1987_Lakers]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZUF_up90j9o

51 points on Stockton's head. :oldlol:

[warriorfan]

I'll never forget when he tried to frame Demarcus Cousins. Guy was always in trouble anyways and Chris picked on it. Hes a scumbag from a competitive perspective. Snake weasel type. Doesn't play totally straight up.

That gif always gets me. DMC’s reaction is hilarious.


Stockton is better than Chris Paul simply due to availability. They are at opposite ends of the spectrum in this regard. Stockton is one of the greatest ironman, Chris Paul not so much.

[beasted]

Barkley was an MVP talent at a time of peak MJ and if not for John paxson you might be singing a different tune. Its crazy how role players can dictate rings sometimes.

So, what? Duncan won 2 MVPs and 5 titles, and Dirk revolutionized the PF position as the first true stretch 4 winning an MVP and a title from 2 Finals trips, and Malone won 2 MVPs and got his team to the finals twice. All of them accomplished more.

I have Barkley somewhere between 35-40.

[SouBeachTalents]

So, what? Duncan won 2 MVPs and 5 titles, and Dirk revolutionized the PF position as the first true stretch 4 winning an MVP and a title from 2 Finals trips, and Malone won 2 MVPs and got his team to the finals twice. All of them accomplished more.

I have Barkley somewhere between 35-40.
And this dude was trying to shit talk my rankings, god damn :lol

Unless your ranking is entirely based off rings, there's no conceivable argument you could make to dump Barkley below the top 25, he simply was too great a player who has too good of a resume.

[1987_Lakers]

So, what? Duncan won 2 MVPs and 5 titles, and Dirk revolutionized the PF position as the first true stretch 4 winning an MVP and a title from 2 Finals trips, and Malone won 2 MVPs and got his team to the finals twice. All of them accomplished more.

I have Barkley somewhere between 35-40.

:roll:

[warriorfan]

And this dude was trying to shit talk my rankings, god damn :lol

Unless your ranking is entirely based off rings, there's no conceivable argument you could make to dump Barkley below the top 25, he simply was too great a player who has too good of a resume.

Barkley of course had tons of talent and skills but he wasn’t a good teammate or leader. He was notoriously lazy and basically had Steve Nash or worse levels of defense but while doing it at the 4 (which inherently has much more defensive responsibility than a PG)

Barkley is one of those guys who gets looked back with rose tinted glasses when people are watching his dope highlights. If you saw full games of his play it paints a very different picture.

[SouBeachTalents]

Barkley of course had tons of talent and skills but he wasn’t a good teammate or leader. He was notoriously lazy and basically had Steve Nash or worse levels of defense but while doing it at the 4 (which inherently has much more defensive responsibility than a PG)

Barkley is one of those guys who gets looked back with rose tinted glasses when people are watching his dope highlights. If you saw full games of his play it paints a very different picture.
I wouldn't disagree with any that, but do you actually believe he's outside the top 25-30?

[1987_Lakers]

Barkley of course had tons of talent and skills but he wasn’t a good teammate or leader. He was notoriously lazy and basically had Steve Nash or worse levels of defense but while doing it at the 4 (which inherently has much more defensive responsibility than a PG)

Barkley is one of those guys who gets looked back with rose tinted glasses when people are watching his dope highlights. If you saw full games of his play it paints a very different picture.

He was never an All-NBA defender, but his bad defense gets overstated, especially in his younger Philly years.

He got worse as he aged and always lacked effort, but Bird & Magic were damn near attrocious defenders as they aged, especially Magic, both are in the top 10.

Peak Barkley takes a shit on Karl Malone.

[tontoz]

For his career Barkley had higher BPM and win shares per 48 than Duncan, KG, Malone and Dirk.

[tpols]

So, what? Duncan won 2 MVPs and 5 titles, and Dirk revolutionized the PF position as the first true stretch 4 winning an MVP and a title from 2 Finals trips, and Malone won 2 MVPs and got his team to the finals twice. All of them accomplished more.

I have Barkley somewhere between 35-40.

MVP Charles Barkley was better than Duncan or Dirk. I've seen guys on this site take Klay Thomspson and Kyrie Irving over him in all time drafts though so nothing surprises me. A lot of yall are ignorant and have no clue.

[tpols]

Barkley of course had tons of talent and skills but he wasn’t a good teammate or leader. He was notoriously lazy and basically had Steve Nash or worse levels of defense but while doing it at the 4 (which inherently has much more defensive responsibility than a PG)

Barkley is one of those guys who gets looked back with rose tinted glasses when people are watching his dope highlights. If you saw full games of his play it paints a very different picture.

Nah bro... Barkley was a legit competitor. Its not like he played on trash teams and just put up stats. Dude was mean as ****, strong as an ox, and somehow had a feathery jumper from midrange. His teams were 1 game away from a title if not for the GOAT. Who was an even meaner bastard in Michael.

[RRR3]

So, what? Duncan won 2 MVPs and 5 titles, and Dirk revolutionized the PF position as the first true stretch 4 winning an MVP and a title from 2 Finals trips, and Malone won 2 MVPs and got his team to the finals twice. All of them accomplished more.

I have Barkley somewhere between 35-40.
:roll:

[Norcaliblunt]

Guys like Barkley and Chris Paul are choke artists.

Great players that can’t finish the job.

I’m a Suns fan, believe me I know.

Their rankings don’t even matter because at the end of the day they are both all time losers whose personalities determine their status.

[Full Court]

Another blunder on your part. That thread you linked is talking All-time, not prime play.

And you basically ignored my other points. When was Stockton top 3 in the league like CP3 was? And I can see CP3 being better than Malone in some years or at least arguable, CP3 had a PER of 30 in 2009, that is something Karl never did. Malone's peak isn't even highly thought of anyways, he is another player who gets ranked high because of his longevity. Barkley, Hakeem, D-Rob, & even '90 Ewing all had better peaks.

And you say Stockton was the better defender, but cannot articulate why. CP3 made 7 All-Defensive First teams, compared to Stockton's 0. I would say they are closer on the defensive end than they are on the offensive end. Both top tier help defenders, but CP3 was the better man defender. When did you see CP3 get torched the way Stockton did vs Porter in 1992? CP3 was small, but built like a bull dog in his Clippers' years, he played physical defense, you could not bully him around, and he fought through screens very well. Stockton was a stick, who struggled against stronger players like Porter. Not only was CP3 more well rounded on defense, but he shits on Stockton as an offensive player, I've already stated my reasons. You on the other hand cannot.

It's amazing to me how you can't provide any points as to why Stockton was the better player in his prime. :lol

I provided evidence that you haven't refuted multiple times. Go back and read, or keep pretending that you're actually putting up a coherent argument. :lol

CP is a very overrated defender. He got a lot of steals, sure, but if you look at defense holistically, Stockton was clearly better. Did you ever even watch Stockton play? I'm guessing not. He's a top 5 PG of all time. CP is not. Paul is probably a better pure scorer, but Stockton's role on his team wasn't that of a scorer. He elevated his team in a way Paul never did. In fact, Paul (as I've already mentioned multiple times) is a notorious choker. And your only response to that has been "Bu-bu-bu-bu-but WILT choked too!!!! :cry:"

https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Fmedia1.tenor.com%2Fm%2FH8akeoCjEZ sAAAAC%2Fincredulous-cormier.gif&f=1&nofb=1&ipt=bf2190c306ae74ba0151764fb4092573478f9f6e86db16 54fe42d9ee871ce664

[tpols]

Did Barkley play bad in the 1993 NBA Finals? He produced very well. MJ gonna MJ though. He would be a champion in today's soft ass league especially given all the injuries and easy paths.

[1987_Lakers]

I provided evidence that you haven't refuted multiple times. Go back and read, or keep pretending that you're actually putting up a coherent argument. :lol

CP is a very overrated defender. He got a lot of steals, sure, but if you look at defense holistically, Stockton was clearly better. Did you ever even watch Stockton play? I'm guessing not. He's a top 5 PG of all time. CP is not. Paul is probably a better pure scorer, but Stockton's role on his team wasn't that of a scorer. He elevated his team in a way Paul never did. In fact, Paul (as I've already mentioned multiple times) is a notorious choker. And your only response to that has been "Bu-bu-bu-bu-but WILT choked too!!!! :cry:"

https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Fmedia1.tenor.com%2Fm%2FH8akeoCjEZ sAAAAC%2Fincredulous-cormier.gif&f=1&nofb=1&ipt=bf2190c306ae74ba0151764fb4092573478f9f6e86db16 54fe42d9ee871ce664

How is it possible for someone to make so many statements and not back up anything they say? :lol

Why was CP3 an overrated defender? Why was Stockton a better defender? How did he elevate his teams in ways CP3 didn't? You just make claims and never back anything up.

[Norcaliblunt]

Did Barkley play bad in the 1993 NBA Finals? He produced very well. MJ gonna MJ though. He would be a champion in today's soft ass league especially given all the injuries and easy paths.

Dude missed critical free throws in game 5 of the 1995 western conference semifinals that would have sealed the series. Drexler literally had the flu that game, puking on the sidelines.

Barkley straight up chocked away 2 series against Houston in back to back years.

[Norcaliblunt]

As a real Suns fan, loosing against Houston in 95 is the hardest one ever.

More than 93, 07, or 2021.

And Barkley could have finished it in Game 5 but didn’t.

Whatever.

[SouBeachTalents]

Did Barkley play bad in the 1993 NBA Finals? He produced very well. MJ gonna MJ though. He would be a champion in today's soft ass league especially given all the injuries and easy paths.
Barkley was a consistently great playoff performer for nearly his entire prime, the only true marks that go against him were his series against Houston in '94 & '95, but I believe he was injured for one or both of those series.

Look what he was doing in '93

43/15/10 & 44/24 in the WCF
42/13 & 32/12/10 in the Finals

This is why I don't judge individual players by rings, they're much more circumstantial than we'd like to admit.

[tpols]

Dude missed critical free throws in game 5 of the 1995 western conference semifinals that would have sealed the series. Drexler literally had the flu that game, puking on the sidelines.

Barkley straight up chocked away 2 series against Houston in back to back years.

So losing to peak Hakeem?

And if Hakeem lost we'd be shitting on him. Oh wait thats not allowed. You cherry pick one game like dude didn't average a Shaq line in the playoffs.

[Norcaliblunt]

So losing to peak Hakeem?

And if Hakeem lost we'd be shitting on him. You cherry pick one game like dude didn't average a Shaq line in the playoffs.

He literally was up 3-1 and on the free throw line at the end of game 5 to finish the series and choked.

It is what it is.

I actually watched the series live. lol.

[tpols]

He literally was up 3-1 and on the free throw line at the end of game 5 to finish the series and choked.

It is what it is.

I actually watched the series live. lol.


Its on soight now buddy.

Period.

[Norcaliblunt]

Its on soight now buddy.

Period.

Lol. Come on buddy I love Barkley just as much as the next fan, but dude wasn’t all that. Just because he’s better than Malone, Dirk, and KG doesn’t mean we have to suck his dick and overlook his shortcomings.

I’m saying this as a life long Suns fan.

[Full Court]

How is it possible for someone to make so many statements and not back up anything they say? :lol

Why was CP3 an overrated defender? Why was Stockton a better defender? How did he elevate his teams in ways CP3 didn't? You just make claims and never back anything up.

You didn't answer the question. Did you ever actually see Stockton play?

[Norcaliblunt]

Stockton was great like how Pippen was great.

A very effective role player who never had to lead.

That’s just facts.

Stockton never had the chance to lead teams single handily like CP3, Nash, or Kidd did.

Kinda sucks that we only saw him with Malone in the Sloan system.

[1987_Lakers]

You didn't answer the question. Did you ever actually see Stockton play?

I've seen various 90's Utah games. You on the other hand are not even old enough to remember prime CP3. :oldlol:

[Jasper]

I have him behind, Curry, Magic, & Big O, ahead of all the rest.

There has never been a more complete PG than CP3.

Next tier would be....

5. Nash
6. Stoctkon
7. Frazier
8. Kidd
9. Isiah
10. GP

Isiah & GP are overrated to me.

cp3 most of had 3 mvp's ???

i have ranked all time in top 30...

you go figure out where this is in pg cred (with no chip appearances and no ring)

[Jasper]

ironically nash as a coach i believe cp3 would be a great coach.

[tpols]

Stockton was great like how Pippen was great.

A very effective role player who never had to lead.

That’s just facts.

Stockton never had the chance to lead teams single handily like CP3, Nash, or Kidd did.

Kinda sucks that we only saw him with Malone in the Sloan system.

Stockton likely would've been exposed outside sloans system. Still good player but hes basically mark price without a wet pull up jumper. Freestyle Stockton without PnR spam? Don't know how effective that would be.

Deron Williams and Carlos Boozer also fell apart after leaving Sloan and adopting freestyle offensive roles elsewhere.

[Jasper]

It's pretty simple. Stockton was the best during a period of better competition at his position. Stockton is a legend. Paul WILL be largely forgotten when he retires.

fixed


( will go down as brons friend) lol

[Full Court]

I've seen various 90's Utah games. You on the other hand are not even old enough to remember prime CP3. :oldlol:


"I've seen various 90's Utah games. :roll: So then the answer is no. Which explains why you think Paul was better. Come back after you educate yourself, Dudley.

https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=http%3A%2F%2F3.bp.blogspot.com%2F-ZWYNLq0UQ1c%2FUncJq-R1oiI%2FAAAAAAAAbhc%2FcAr9tcCYpTQ%2Fs1600%2FTom%2B Brady%2Bgoofy.png&f=1&nofb=1&ipt=c7059574b3ad57222b77cc4400338da7c33f38bbc19bf5 b9f9c53a5fd9b3353b

[1987_Lakers]

I think it's pretty obvious to everyone here that you didn't even watch Chris Paul in his prime.

"Stockton is better, I can't explain why, I just know" - fulltard.

Embarrassing. :lol

[Full Court]

I think it's pretty obvious to everyone here that you didn't even watch Chris Paul in his prime.

"Stockton is better, I can't explain why, I just know" - fulltard.

Embarrassing. :lol

^Bitch is SHOOK. :roll:

"I hate Stockton because he called out my precious Bronie!"

:lol Loser.

:lebronamazed:

[RRR3]

^Bitch is SHOOK. :roll:

"I hate Stockton because he called out my precious Bronie!"

:lol Loser.

:lebronamazed:
You resort to trolling every time your arguments get exposed as inadequate.

[Full Court]

You resort to trolling every time your arguments get exposed as inadequate.

^Oooooooooo, another shook bitch. :lol

Let me guess, you're also one of those low IQ bozos who thinks Paul is better?

:biggums:

[RRR3]

^Oooooooooo, another shook bitch. :lol

Let me guess, you're also one of those low IQ bozos who thinks Paul is better?

:biggums:
More trolling. Come on make an actual argument. What’s the evidence Stockton was better besides “I said so”?

[1987_Lakers]

Full court throughout this entire thread


It's pretty simple. Stockton was the best during a period of better competition at his position. Stockton is a legend. Paul was be largely forgotten when he retires.


And you've listed at least four from Paul's generation who are better than him: Curry, Harden, Kidd, and SGA. You can make a case for Rose, Irving, and Nash too.


I provided evidence that you haven't refuted multiple times. Go back and read, or keep pretending that you're actually putting up a coherent argument. :lol

CP is a very overrated defender. He got a lot of steals, sure, but if you look at defense holistically, Stockton was clearly better. Did you ever even watch Stockton play? I'm guessing not. He's a top 5 PG of all time. CP is not. Paul is probably a better pure scorer, but Stockton's role on his team wasn't that of a scorer. He elevated his team in a way Paul never did. In fact, Paul (as I've already mentioned multiple times) is a notorious choker. And your only response to that has been "Bu-bu-bu-bu-but WILT choked too!!!! :cry:"

https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Fmedia1.tenor.com%2Fm%2FH8akeoCjEZ sAAAAC%2Fincredulous-cormier.gif&f=1&nofb=1&ipt=bf2190c306ae74ba0151764fb4092573478f9f6e86db16 54fe42d9ee871ce664


Guess what, if CP3 had played with Malone, he wouldn't have been the best on his team.

Furthermore, you've just made yet another incorrect take. Stockton was a better defender.

A whole bunch of claims, absolutely nothing to back it up.

[RRR3]

Full court throughout this entire thread









A whole bunch of claims, absolutely nothing to back it up.
RAPM rates CP3 slightly higher as a defender, fwiw, and Stockton elevated his team where? As the second best player? :lol CP3 led rosters that would have missed the playoffs without him to the playoffs numerous times when did Stockton do that? Also, statistically speaking CP3 was easily a better playoff performer and he did it in an era with better competition at point guard as I already detailed. You'd have to use longevity to make the case for Stockton.

[Full Court]

More trolling. Come on make an actual argument. What’s the evidence Stockton was better besides “I said so”?

I guess you can't read either. Go back through this thread. I've answered the question multiple times.

No suprise at all the Bronie fluffers always side with the choker. :lol

[1987_Lakers]

John Stockton in his prime. Averaged a triple single on 45 TS% :lol

https://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/1996-nba-western-conference-finals-jazz-vs-supersonics.html

Imagine if prime CP3 had an atrocious series like this. The one series that comes to mind is his '09 series vs the Nuggets, but he wasn't even as bad as Stockton was here.

That's the problem with fans today, they are more familiar with present players failures while being completely ignorant to other past legends failures, because fans tend to promote more of their highlights.

[RRR3]

I guess you can't read either. Go back through this thread. I've answered the question multiple times.

No suprise at all the Bronie fluffers always side with the choker. :lol
You haven't done anything besides give opinions, I want facts. 1987 and I have given you facts, where are yours? What data supports Stockton as better?

Also the stats show Stockton as more of a choker....CP3 in the regular season? 17.0 PPG on 58.1 TS%. Playoffs? 20.0 PPG on 58.3 TS%. He actually got better scoring in the playoffs. Stockton though? He barely increased his scoring (13.1 PPG in regular season, 13.4 PPG) but his efficiency completely tanked (60.8 TS% to 56.8%). Btw Stockton lost THREE times in the FIRST round as the higher seed. Including in back to back years in the middle of his peak.

[RRR3]

John Stockton in his prime. Averaged a triple single on 45 TS% :lol

https://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/1996-nba-western-conference-finals-jazz-vs-supersonics.html

Imagine if prime CP3 had an atrocious series like this. The one series that comes to mind is his '09 series vs the Nuggets, but he wasn't even as bad as Stockton was here.

That's the problem with fans today, they are more familiar with present players failures while being completely ignorant to other past legends failures, because fans tend to promote more of their highlights.
Yeah but at least he "held" Payton to 21 PPG on amazing (relative to era) efficiency!

[Full Court]

Lol at Bronie fluffers grasping at straws.

Stocked averated around 14 APG for five years straight, including having the all time records for APG in a season. There's a reason most people have him the #2 PG of all time behind Magic. Of course, you'll choose to keep trying to make excuses because you're upset that he called out your precious Bronie. :lol

Truth hurts.

[1987_Lakers]

Lol at Bronie fluffers grasping at straws.

Stocked averated around 14 APG for five years straight, including having the all time records for APG in a season. There's a reason most people have him the #2 PG of all time behind Magic. Of course, you'll choose to keep trying to make excuses because you're upset that he called out your precious Bronie. :lol

Truth hurts.

All of a sudden Curry doesn't exist. Dude making false claims now.

Desperate.

[Full Court]

All of a sudden Curry doesn't exist. Dude making false claims now.

Desperate.

Curry will pass him up when he retires. He's still in his career though. Paul definitely won't pass him up. That ship has sailed.

Curry will probably pass up Lebron too when all is said and done. Probably already has.

:lebronamazed:

[1987_Lakers]

Curry will pass him up when he retires. He's still in his career though. Paul definitely won't pass him up. That ship has sailed.

Curry will probably pass up Lebron too when all is said and done. Probably already has.

:lebronamazed:

I know you are secretly fuming that I caught another one of your famous blunders.

[Full Court]

Lol at Bronie fluffers grasping at straws.

Stocked averated around 14 APG for five years straight, including having the all time records for APG in a season. There's a reason most people have him the #2 PG of all time behind Magic. Of course, you'll choose to keep trying to make excuses because you're upset that he called out your precious Bronie. :lol

Truth hurts.

See, throughout this thread I've posted numerous bits of evidence, and Dudley just ignores it and then laters tries to say it's just opinion. :roll: Bitch is SHOOK.

How about it, Dudley? Did you know that Stockton led the league in assists for 9 years straight? Did you also know that's one of the most valuable things a PG can do, unless you happen to also be a primary scorer like Harden?

[1987_Lakers]

See, throughout this thread I've posted numerous bits of opinions without backing any of them up

Pretty much.

[Full Court]

Lol at Bronie fluffers grasping at straws.

Stocked averated around 14 APG for five years straight, including having the all time records for APG in a season. There's a reason most people have him the #2 PG of all time behind Magic. Of course, you'll choose to keep trying to make excuses because you're upset that he called out your precious Bronie. :lol

Truth hurts.


See, throughout this thread I've posted numerous bits of evidence, and Dudley just ignores it and then laters tries to say it's just opinion. :roll: Bitch is SHOOK.

How about it, Dudley? Did you know that Stockton led the league in assists for 9 years straight? Did you also know that's one of the most valuable things a PG can do, unless you happen to also be a primary scorer like Harden?

BOOM. As expected, he's got no reply. I'll hit you with some more. :lol

Did you know that Stockton has more career assists per game than Paul?

Did you know that Stockton has more career steals per game than Paul?

Did you know that Stockton has a higher career field goal % than Paul?

Did you know that Stockton has a higher career 3-pt % than Paul?

Did you know that Stockton has waayyyyyyyy more durability than Paul?

In fact, did you know that Stockton played 82 games in a season 16 times? Did you know that Paul only did it once?

Suck on that for a while.

https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Fc.tenor.com%2Fy4fq2bJ0RJMAAAAC%2F damn.gif&f=1&nofb=1&ipt=ec2fed60e340ed3c436345e976ff2b46582139b880d527 e8df006186c2988abf

[1987_Lakers]

BOOM. As expected, he's got no reply. I'll hit you with some more. :lol

Did you know that Stockton has more career assists per game than Paul?

Did you know that Stockton has more career steals per game than Paul?

Did you know that Stockton has a higher career field goal % than Paul?

Did you know that Stockton has a higher career 3-pt % than Paul?

Did you know that Stockton has waayyyyyyyy more durability than Paul?

In fact, did you know that Stockton played 82 games in a season 16 times? Did you know that Paul only did it once?

Suck on that for a while.

https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Fc.tenor.com%2Fy4fq2bJ0RJMAAAAC%2F damn.gif&f=1&nofb=1&ipt=ec2fed60e340ed3c436345e976ff2b46582139b880d527 e8df006186c2988abf

So by this logic, Stockton is also better than Steph Curry

https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Fc.tenor.com%2Fy4fq2bJ0RJMAAAAC%2F damn.gif&f=1&nofb=1&ipt=ec2fed60e340ed3c436345e976ff2b46582139b880d527 e8df006186c2988abf

Another fail on your part.

[Full Court]

So by this logic, Stockton is also better than Steph Curry

https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Fc.tenor.com%2Fy4fq2bJ0RJMAAAAC%2F damn.gif&f=1&nofb=1&ipt=ec2fed60e340ed3c436345e976ff2b46582139b880d527 e8df006186c2988abf

Another fail on your part.

:roll: Oh wow. This is almost as dumb as your "Tom Brady is the biggest choker in the NBA....because LOGIC!"

Stockton is not better than Curry in all the areas I mentioned. Curry is the greatest shooter of all time. Paul is not. Curry has 4 rings. Paul has none. Curry has an FMVP. Paul is a notorious choker.

Man, Dudley's getting another beatdown. :lol

https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Fmedia.giphy.com%2Fmedia%2FfDQiG23 bfZsSk%2Fgiphy.gif&f=1&nofb=1&ipt=fe05989f3fb83f0cad3df58b9eca68666c9d7c1ad8c6a7 a2d48c0a77217e436a

[1987_Lakers]

:roll: Oh wow. This is almost as dumb as your "Tom Brady is the biggest choker in the NBA....because LOGIC!"

Stockton is not better than Curry in all the areas I mentioned. Curry is the greatest shooter of all time. Paul is not. Curry has 4 rings. Paul has none. Curry has an FMVP. Paul is a notorious choker.

Man, Dudley's getting another beatdown. :lol

https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Fmedia.giphy.com%2Fmedia%2FfDQiG23 bfZsSk%2Fgiphy.gif&f=1&nofb=1&ipt=fe05989f3fb83f0cad3df58b9eca68666c9d7c1ad8c6a7 a2d48c0a77217e436a


Lol at Bronie fluffers grasping at straws.

Stocked averated around 14 APG for five years straight, including having the all time records for APG in a season. There's a reason most people have him the #2 PG of all time behind Magic. Of course, you'll choose to keep trying to make excuses because you're upset that he called out your precious Bronie. :lol

Truth hurts.

So all of a sudden, Curry is better than Stockton. Make up your mind.

https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Fmedia.giphy.com%2Fmedia%2FfDQiG23 bfZsSk%2Fgiphy.gif&f=1&nofb=1&ipt=fe05989f3fb83f0cad3df58b9eca68666c9d7c1ad8c6a7 a2d48c0a77217e436a

[RRR3]

I genuinely think Full Court is mentally disabled. Using steals per game to measure defense jesus

[RRR3]

So all of a sudden, Curry is better than Stockton. Make up your mind.

https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Fmedia.giphy.com%2Fmedia%2FfDQiG23 bfZsSk%2Fgiphy.gif&f=1&nofb=1&ipt=fe05989f3fb83f0cad3df58b9eca68666c9d7c1ad8c6a7 a2d48c0a77217e436a
Like I said. FC is mentally disabled. Can't even remember what he said a second ago.

[Full Court]

I genuinely think Full Court is mentally disabled. Using steals per game to measure defense jesus

DESPERATION. :roll:

Bitch is SHOOK.

Fuming because Paul doesn't even have a case over Stockton.

:lebronamazed:

[Full Court]

So all of a sudden, Curry is better than Stockton. Make up your mind.

https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Fmedia.giphy.com%2Fmedia%2FfDQiG23 bfZsSk%2Fgiphy.gif&f=1&nofb=1&ipt=fe05989f3fb83f0cad3df58b9eca68666c9d7c1ad8c6a7 a2d48c0a77217e436a

That's how I know you're desperate. You lose the argument, so you always resort to trying to make a straw man. Show me where I ever said Stockton was better than Curry. Oh, right. You can't. :lol

Funny thing is, Curry and Stockton are BOTH better than Paul.

To be fair though, Paul doesn't have nearly as many choke jobs as LeShrivel.

:lebronamazed:

[1987_Lakers]

That's how I know you're desperate. You lose the argument, so you always resort to trying to make a straw man. Show me where I ever said Stockton was better than Curry. Oh, right. You can't. :lol

Funny thing is, Curry and Stockton are BOTH better than Paul.

To be fair though, Paul doesn't have nearly as many choke jobs as LeShrivel.

:lebronamazed:

I just did :oldlol:


Lol at Bronie fluffers grasping at straws.

Stocked averated around 14 APG for five years straight, including having the all time records for APG in a season. There's a reason most people have him the #2 PG of all time behind Magic. Of course, you'll choose to keep trying to make excuses because you're upset that he called out your precious Bronie. :lol

Truth hurts.

[1987_Lakers]

The fact that you thought most people had him #2 ahead of Curry just shows how dumb and out of touch you are.

[Full Court]

The fact that you thought most people had him #2 ahead of Curry just shows how dumb and out of touch you are.

Lol you're just trying to distract from the fact that you're getting destroyed. Curry is better than Stockton. I never said otherwise. And as I've proven multiple times, Stockton is clearly better than Paul.

No matter how much you try to deflect to Wilt or Curry, Full Court won't let it happen.

:hammertime:

[RRR3]

Lol you're just trying to distract from the fact that you're getting destroyed. Curry is better than Stockton. I never said otherwise. And as I've proven multiple times, Stockton is clearly better than Paul.

No matter how much you try to deflect to Wilt or Curry, Full Court won't let it happen.

:hammertime:
You've never destroyed anyone on here, you've been getting refuted in this thread with facts and haven't responded in kind except one time where you just cherry picked box score stats without even considering context or role. And that was only after dozens of posts from multiple people demanding you back up your claims.

You just troll because you can't actually make coherent arguments. Whenever you try to be serious you almost always make an embarrassing mistake or contradict yourself. It's like you genuinely struggle to operate at the basic level of most human beings. Of course you're too stupid to realize you're getting destroyed so you then gloat about your "win" despite the fact that literally everyone here thinks you're an idiot.

[Full Court]

You've never destroyed anyone on here, you've been getting refuted in this thread with facts and haven't responded in kind except one time where you just cherry picked box score stats without even considering context or role. And that was only after dozens of posts from multiple people demanding you back up your claims.

You just troll because you can't actually make coherent arguments. Whenever you try to be serious you almost always make an embarrassing mistake or contradict yourself. It's like you genuinely struggle to operate at the basic level of most human beings. Of course you're too stupid to realize you're getting destroyed so you then gloat about your "win" despite the fact that literally everyone here thinks you're an idiot.

You haven't refuted a single thing I've said. :lol

Nice try, moron.

https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Fus-tuna-sounds-images.voicemod.net%2F802d6ab6-8f82-4396-b7b5-9ac7074b6948-1707069266855.png&f=1&nofb=1&ipt=ea493350033b6728b4cb4490ed7ed483eea895d5bcbed9 add847c05cf96d0bd0

[RRR3]

“Chris Paul is a choker so Stockton is better”

>Except CP3’s stats got better in the playoffs while Stockton got worse”


“Well Stockton was a better defender”

>worse in DRAPM


“Well Stockton got more assists”

>because he shot less.


“Stockton played against more elite PGs”

>I already refuted this.


You have been refuted constantly you’re just too dim to even register it. Now you’ll resort to trolling again like you always do when you lose an argument.

[Full Court]

“Chris Paul is a choker so Stockton is better”

>Except CP3’s stats got better in the playoffs while Stockton got worse”


“Well Stockton was a better defender”

>worse in DRAPM


“Well Stockton got more assists”

>because he shot less.


“Stockton played against more elite PGs”

>I already refuted this.


You have been refuted constantly you’re just too dim to even register it. Now you’ll resort to trolling again like you always do when you lose an argument.

Lol. No you didn't. Nice try, but you lose yet AGAIN.

"Bu-bu-bu-bu-but RAPM!!!!!!"

Pretty sure just like Dudley, you've never actually seen Stockton play either.

You can try to deny it, but everybody knows CP shriveled up when it mattered.

Much like your hero Lebron. :roll:

[RRR3]

Better competition is pretty dubious anyways, CP3 has played at the same time as the following PGs: Steph Curry, James Harden, Russell Westbrook, Jason Kidd, Steve Nash, Luka Doncic, Damian Lillard, Tony Parker, Kyrie Irving, John Wall, Deron Williams, Kyle Lowry, Chauncey Billups, Mike Conley, Kemba Walker, Isaiah Thomas, Derrick Rose, Rajon Rondo, Jrue Holiday, Jalen Brunson, SGA....
Did you forget I made this post?

That's a more impressive list than the guys Stockton played against (there's a little overlap but not much).



Notice you couldn't refute anything I said btw Just "nuh uh!" to one point while ignoring the other 3. You continue to argue as if you are a child.

[Full Court]

Did you forget I made this post?

That's a more impressive list than the guys Stockton played against (there's a little overlap but not much).



Notice you couldn't refute anything I said btw Just "nuh uh!" to one point while ignoring the other 3. You continue to argue as if you are a child.

Yeah, that was an incredibly stupid argument you made, since about half the players you mentioned are better than Paul. :lol It makes my case more than it does yours. You can't find even close to that many better than Stockton during his era.

Curry > Paul
Nash > Paul
Doncic > Paul
Kidd > Paul
Kyrie > Paul
Rose > Paul
Brunson > Paul
SGA > Paul

So even if I were to concede that he had better competion, that "better competion" blows him out of the water anyway. :roll:

You can't make this stuff up.

[John8204]

“Chris Paul is a choker so Stockton is better”

>Except CP3’s stats got better in the playoffs while Stockton got worse”

CPIII was the 1 option in the playoffs for half his career, Stockton was the 3 or 4 option.



“Well Stockton was a better defender”

>worse in DRAPM

Better in win shares let's look at the two lists which is better company.

1. David Robinson* 3.05
2. Nikola Jokić 2.96
3. Nate McMillan 2.94
4. Mark Eaton 2.91
5. Draymond Green 2.90
6. Ben Wallace* 2.60
7. Tree Rollins 2.51
8. Kyle Anderson 2.50
9. Hakeem Olajuwon* 2.48
10. Bo Outlaw 2.46
11. George Johnson 2.45
12. Sam Lacey 2.43
13. Tim Duncan* 2.33
14. Marcus Camby 2.33
15. Andrei Kirilenko 2.30
16. Bobby Jones* 2.28
17. Giannis Antetokounmpo 2.21
18. Doc Rivers 2.19
19. John Salley 2.17
20. Kevin Garnett* 2.09
Rank Player DBPM
21. Joakim Noah 2.09
22. Don Buse 2.08
23. Michael Jordan* 2.05
24. Manu Ginóbili* 2.04
25. Kim Hughes 2.04
26. Chris Paul 2.03
27. Robert Horry 1.98
28. Thabo Sefolosha 1.97
29. Alvin Robertson 1.96
30. Rudy Gobert 1.95
31. Kawhi Leonard 1.94
32. John Stockton* 1.93

1. Bill Russell* 133.62
2. Tim Duncan* 106.34
3. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar* 94.49
4. Hakeem Olajuwon* 94.47
5. Wilt Chamberlain* 93.92
6. Karl Malone* 92.41
7. Kevin Garnett* 91.48
8. Elvin Hayes* 83.65
9. LeBron James 83.60
10. Patrick Ewing* 81.42
11. David Robinson* 80.14
12. Dwight Howard* 76.18
13. Artis Gilmore* 75.54
14. Jason Kidd* 75.14
15. John Havlicek* 74.08
16. Julius Erving* 73.81
17. Robert Parish* 72.98
18. Ben Wallace* 70.58
19. Dikembe Mutombo* 68.53
20. Scottie Pippen* 67.29
21. Shaquille O'Neal* 66.36
22. John Stockton* 64.93
23. Michael Jordan* 64.13
24. Wes Unseld* 64.11
25. Charles Oakley 63.34
26. Paul Pierce* 63.11
27. Dirk Nowitzki* 62.57
28. Nate Thurmond* 62.24
29. Buck Williams 61.79
30. Shawn Marion 61.27
31. Jack Sikma* 60.69
32. Moses Malone* 60.54
33. Chris Paul 59.78




“Well Stockton got more assists”

>because he shot less.


And that's the job of the PG


“Stockton played against more elite PGs”

>I already refuted this.

More elite PG's and better teams because they stayed together.


Now I would rank Curry ahead of Stockton but Curry and Stockton are behind Oscar and Magic, and Stockton is the best pure PG of the 4 them.

And people still care about John Stockton's game 20 years later, it has historical relevance I don't know if CPIII is going to have that. Stockton is the standard in which we measure PG's.

I'd like to hear why Jason Kidd and Walt Frazier aren't ahead of CPIII also

[1987_Lakers]

I really wonder how Stockton's career would have been without Malone. He got so many easy assists spamming pick & rolls with Malone.

I don't think he was as great of a passer as his assists totals make it seem, alot of his passes were generic, I feel like Magic, Nash, & Jokic had better overall court vision and made more spectacular passes. But overall, he was the definition of what a true point guard is, then CP3 came along and took it to another level.

What never gets talked about CP3 is his lack of turnovers. To average only 2.4 TOPG during his entire prime with the amount of times he had the ball is damn near impossible. Has to have the best Assist/Turnover ratio out of any all-time great PG.

[RRR3]

Yeah, that was an incredibly stupid argument you made, since about half the players you mentioned are better than Paul. :lol It makes my case more than it does yours. You can't find even close to that many better than Stockton during his era.

Curry > Paul
Nash > Paul
Doncic > Paul
Kidd > Paul
Kyrie > Paul
Rose > Paul
Brunson > Paul
SGA > Paul

So even if I were to concede that he had better competion, that "better competion" blows him out of the water anyway. :roll:

You can't make this stuff up.
Kyrie and Rose>Paul is pure trolling. Listen to yourself :facepalm

Nothing supports that.

[John8204]

I really wonder how Stockton's career would have been without Malone. He got so many easy assists spamming pick & rolls with Malone.

I don't think he was as great of a passer as his assists totals make it seem, alot of his passes were generic, I feel like Magic, Nash, & Jokic had better overall court vision and made more spectacular passes. But overall, he was the definition of what a true point guard is, then CP3 came along and took it to another level.

What never gets talked about CP3 is his lack of turnovers. To average only 2.4 TOPG during his entire prime with the amount of times he had the ball is damn near impossible. Has to have the best Assist/Turnover ratio out of any all-time great PG.

Stockton elevated other guys like Hornacek, Glen Malone, Thurl Bailey, etc. Malone was the first option because it was in the paint and easy percentage shot. If Barkley went to Utah and not Phoenix, Barkley would have put up better numbers, if Hakeem decided he wasn't happy in Houston Hakeem would have put up crazy numbers.

CPIII has done a great job not turning the ball over, he has incredible BBIQ but it's also a less physical game with weaker defensive options to play against.

[RRR3]

Glen Malone.

[Overdrive]

Stockton elevated other guys like Hornacek, Glen Malone, Thurl Bailey, etc. Malone was the first option because it was in the paint and easy percentage shot. If Barkley went to Utah and not Phoenix, Barkley would have put up better numbers, if Hakeem decided he wasn't happy in Houston Hakeem would have put up crazy numbers.

CPIII has done a great job not turning the ball over, he has incredible BBIQ but it's also a less physical game with weaker defensive options to play against.

Crazy that Stockton has not one, but two 3balls doing mental stunts for him.

Hornacek's stats declined when he came to Utah, Bailey was already in decline before he left and who tf is Glen Malone?

[RRR3]

Crazy that Stockton has not one, but two 3balls doing mental stunts for him.

Hornacek's stats declined when he came to Utah, Bailey was already in decline before he left and who tf is Glen Malone?
The poster you’re responding to says the guy in your avatar isn’t even top 20 btw. Stockton is better according to him.

[Full Court]

Kyrie and Rose>Paul is pure trolling. Listen to yourself :facepalm

Nothing supports that.

^Coming from the guy who thinks the only stat you need to compare two players' defense is DRAPM. :roll:

Try to do better. At ISH and at life.

Rose at his peak, short as it was, was better than any version of CP that ever stepped on the court.

Kyrie carried his team to a ring. CP carried his team to a choke.

Truth hurts.

:lebroncry:

[Baller234]

Stockton played alongside a top 5 scorer his entire career. Some early exits but also some deep playoff runs. A good to great team that was always in the mix. They made the finals back to back but that was after playing with each other for over TEN years.

Up until Houston, Paul never played with an upper tier scorer like Malone. When he finally got to play with Harden, that team almost went to the finals and took the Warriors to the brink. Whose to say Paul couldn't get it done with Harden if they had TEN prime years together???

Stockton is an all time great player, and sure if you wanna pick Stockton for your team over Paul because you saw something in him that was unique then go for it, you can't go wrong either way. They're both HOF point guards.

But my eyes tell me Paul was better. I think most people feel the same if they're being honest.

[warriorfan]

“Chris Paul is a choker so Stockton is better”

>Except CP3’s stats got better in the playoffs while Stockton got worse”


“Well Stockton was a better defender”

>worse in DRAPM


“Well Stockton got more assists”

>because he shot less.


“Stockton played against more elite PGs”

>I already refuted this.


You have been refuted constantly you’re just too dim to even register it. Now you’ll resort to trolling again like you always do when you lose an argument.

Stockton dwarfs Klay Thompson in DRAPM, so better put some respect on Stockton’s defense or you are poking tons of holes in your guys’ “Klay Thompson was an elite defender” false narrative.

[1987_Lakers]

Stockton was the master of the "Rondo" assist, didn't have the court vision of other all-time great passers.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-2pYNguS7Y4&t


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qJd5GmkmjDI&t


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9RqXf0jy0Ec&t

In my tracking sample, Stockton hit 3.5 “good” or “great” passes per 100 possessions — a formidable clip for his era, behind only Magic and Bird among ’80s and ’90s players on this list. However, he also missed an elite pass once per 100, leaving points on the scoreboard that the best passers would have found.

As a result of all this, his creation rates appear significantly lower than what his Box Creation predicts. He was an anomaly, a player functionally closer to Brevin Knight who had the ball so much and shot just enough 3-pointers to trip up the creation estimate. It’s almost as if Stockton should be a significantly larger offensive mass, but isn’t.

Overall, he was a very good, but not great passer. He uncorked a number of quality assists per game, but he missed too many elite passes.

[beasted]

Stockton played alongside a top 5 scorer his entire career. Some early exits but also some deep playoff runs. A good to great team that was always in the mix. They made the finals back to back but that was after playing with each other for over TEN years.

Up until Houston, Paul never played with an upper tier scorer like Malone. When he finally got to play with Harden, that team almost went to the finals and took the Warriors to the brink. Whose to say Paul couldn't get it done with Harden if they had TEN prime years together???

Stockton is an all time great player, and sure if you wanna pick Stockton for your team over Paul because you saw something in him that was unique then go for it, you can't go wrong either way. They're both HOF point guards.

But my eyes tell me Paul was better. I think most people feel the same if they're being honest.

I agree with this. Personally, neither player is in my top 30, nor top 3 of their position.

Back to my original premise, yes, I do believe CP3 might be the greatest loser of all time based on my limited criteria (no MVP, no title, 1 or less Finals). The best guys in that bracket are Paul, Ewing, Howard, Gervin, Wilkins, Regggie, Lillard, and I think it's close with Ewing and Howard, but could see why some would pick CP3 from this group.

[1987_Lakers]

https://thinkingbasketball.net/wp-content/uploads/2017/09/Stockton-scoring-v-Top-PGs-1024x658.png

As that chart hints at, the playoffs exposed these weaknesses in Stockton. In 87 postseason games against teams with a defensive rating under 105, Stockton averaged 13.5 points per 36 on 57 percent true shooting, down from 15.5 and 62 percent in the regular season against such competition. Perhaps most importantly, his Box Creation in those games was only around 5 per 100, more inline with the sampling from the scouting report and drastically below some of his regular season estimations. In other words, he wasn’t breaking down defenses the way his assist numbers would suggest.

We done with Stockton!

[tpols]

Stockton maxed his value out for what he was. A tiny white guy. Leads NBA history in dimes and robberies. It is insane what he did with his lack of physical tools. His mind steel sharp.

[Tavr]

CP3 has a decent argument over anyone not named Magic or Curry. At that position anyway...

[beasted]

I noticed a lot of this thread is focused on the CP3 vs Stockton debate, but interested to heard more on CP3vs Kidd. I have them as a deadlock, with a slight edge to Kidd, personally (who I also tip my hat above Stockton as well).

In his prime, better defender, floor general, but worse scorer than Paul. Did more with less leading 2 teams to the Finals as the man, and won an MVP.

[tpols]

I noticed a lot of this thread is focused on the CP3 vs Stockton debate, but interested to heard more on CP3vs Kidd. I have them as a deadlock, with a slight edge to Kidd, personally (who I also tip my hat above Stockton as well).

In his prime, better defender, floor general, but worse scorer than Paul. Did more with less leading 2 teams to the Finals as the man, and won an MVP.

Jason Kidd is the best rebounding guard of all time too when you look how many he scooped even averaging double digit boards vs ben Wallace pistons is stupid. Kidd was a big dude. Chris Small is pint sized but super savvy and stingy. His iq and skill are ridiculous.

[1987_Lakers]

I noticed a lot of this thread is focused on the CP3 vs Stockton debate, but interested to heard more on CP3vs Kidd. I have them as a deadlock, with a slight edge to Kidd, personally (who I also tip my hat above Stockton as well).

In his prime, better defender, floor general, but worse scorer than Paul. Did more with less leading 2 teams to the Finals as the man, and won an MVP.

Kidd is a better defender, rebounder, & passer than CP3, but Kidd was too much of a liability as a scorer, more so than Stockton. If we are talking just prime, I'm easily taking Kidd over Stockton, but his great limitations as a scorer with his lack of shooting & being pretty useless at times in the half court set is enough for me to take CP3.

And when did Jason Kidd win MVP? :lol

[beasted]

Kidd is a better defender, rebounder, & passer than CP3, but Kidd was too much of a liability as a scorer, more so than Stockton. If we are talking just prime, I'm easily taking Kidd over Stockton, but his great limitations as a scorer with his lack of shooting & being pretty useless at times in the half court set is enough for me to take CP3.

And when did Jason Kidd win MVP? :lol

He won an MVP in my imagination I guess. I could have sworn he did.

[Full Court]

Kidd is a better defender, rebounder, & passer than CP3, but Kidd was too much of a liability as a scorer, more so than Stockton. If we are talking just prime, I'm easily taking Kidd over Stockton, but his great limitations as a scorer with his lack of shooting & being pretty useless at times in the half court set is enough for me to take CP3.

And when did Jason Kidd win MVP? :lol

Wow. Calling Stockton a scoring liability is just dumb. But then again, you did admit that you didn't actually see him play. Did you know he's a better shooter than Chris Paul?

[Full Court]

CPIII was the 1 option in the playoffs for half his career, Stockton was the 3 or 4 option.



Better in win shares let's look at the two lists which is better company.

1. David Robinson* 3.05
2. Nikola Jokić 2.96
3. Nate McMillan 2.94
4. Mark Eaton 2.91
5. Draymond Green 2.90
6. Ben Wallace* 2.60
7. Tree Rollins 2.51
8. Kyle Anderson 2.50
9. Hakeem Olajuwon* 2.48
10. Bo Outlaw 2.46
11. George Johnson 2.45
12. Sam Lacey 2.43
13. Tim Duncan* 2.33
14. Marcus Camby 2.33
15. Andrei Kirilenko 2.30
16. Bobby Jones* 2.28
17. Giannis Antetokounmpo 2.21
18. Doc Rivers 2.19
19. John Salley 2.17
20. Kevin Garnett* 2.09
Rank Player DBPM
21. Joakim Noah 2.09
22. Don Buse 2.08
23. Michael Jordan* 2.05
24. Manu Ginóbili* 2.04
25. Kim Hughes 2.04
26. Chris Paul 2.03
27. Robert Horry 1.98
28. Thabo Sefolosha 1.97
29. Alvin Robertson 1.96
30. Rudy Gobert 1.95
31. Kawhi Leonard 1.94
32. John Stockton* 1.93

1. Bill Russell* 133.62
2. Tim Duncan* 106.34
3. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar* 94.49
4. Hakeem Olajuwon* 94.47
5. Wilt Chamberlain* 93.92
6. Karl Malone* 92.41
7. Kevin Garnett* 91.48
8. Elvin Hayes* 83.65
9. LeBron James 83.60
10. Patrick Ewing* 81.42
11. David Robinson* 80.14
12. Dwight Howard* 76.18
13. Artis Gilmore* 75.54
14. Jason Kidd* 75.14
15. John Havlicek* 74.08
16. Julius Erving* 73.81
17. Robert Parish* 72.98
18. Ben Wallace* 70.58
19. Dikembe Mutombo* 68.53
20. Scottie Pippen* 67.29
21. Shaquille O'Neal* 66.36
22. John Stockton* 64.93
23. Michael Jordan* 64.13
24. Wes Unseld* 64.11
25. Charles Oakley 63.34
26. Paul Pierce* 63.11
27. Dirk Nowitzki* 62.57
28. Nate Thurmond* 62.24
29. Buck Williams 61.79
30. Shawn Marion 61.27
31. Jack Sikma* 60.69
32. Moses Malone* 60.54
33. Chris Paul 59.78





And that's the job of the PG



More elite PG's and better teams because they stayed together.


Now I would rank Curry ahead of Stockton but Curry and Stockton are behind Oscar and Magic, and Stockton is the best pure PG of the 4 them.

And people still care about John Stockton's game 20 years later, it has historical relevance I don't know if CPIII is going to have that. Stockton is the standard in which we measure PG's.

I'd like to hear why Jason Kidd and Walt Frazier aren't ahead of CPIII also

Great post. I noticed they had no reply to this. Not surprised though.

[Full Court]

I really wonder how Stockton's career would have been without Malone. He got so many easy assists spamming pick & rolls with Malone.

I don't think he was as great of a passer as his assists totals make it seem, alot of his passes were generic, I feel like Magic, Nash, & Jokic had better overall court vision and made more spectacular passes. But overall, he was the definition of what a true point guard is, then CP3 came along and took it to another level.

What never gets talked about CP3 is his lack of turnovers. To average only 2.4 TOPG during his entire prime with the amount of times he had the ball is damn near impossible. Has to have the best Assist/Turnover ratio out of any all-time great PG.

A better question would be how Malone's career would have been without Stockton.


Interestingly, Paul's turnovers went up in the post season. Stockton's did not. One of the things that gave Paul the reputation of being a choker were his clutch turnovers.

[1987_Lakers]

A better question would be how Malone's career would have been without Stockton.


Interestingly, Paul's turnovers went up in the post season. Stockton's did not. One of the things that gave Paul the reputation of being a choker were his clutch turnovers.

Paul's turnovers went from 2.3 to 2.5, hardly an increase. :oldlol:

Obviously both Malone & Stockton both benefited from playing with each other. In Stockton's case, the pick & roll offense with Malone inflated his assist numbers, he wasn't throwing some godly passes like we saw from Magic, Nash, or Kidd. And I have no doubt some people would consider Stockton a choker if the 90's had social media. Look at his series in '92 vs Portland, Terry Porter destroyed him, or his '96 series vs Gary Payton, where Stockton averaged a triple single, or how he got knocked out of the 1st round a bunch of times despite having HCA. His numbers in general went down in the playoffs. Fans today in general just don't do the research on older players.

With all that said, I still have him at #6 in my PG list strictly because of longevity, ahead of Isiah, Kidd, GP etc. Overall, Stockton was a well rounded player, but his prime play was nothing to go crazy over. Never in the MVP convo & never separated himself from the other points guards in the league even after Magic was gone.

[RRR3]

Paul's turnovers went from 2.3 to 2.5, hardly an increase. :oldlol:

Obviously both Malone & Stockton both benefited from playing with each other. In Stockton's case, the pick & roll offense with Malone inflated his assist numbers, he wasn't throwing some godly passes like we saw from Magic, Nash, or Kidd. And I have no doubt some people would consider Stockton a choker if the 90's had social media. Look at his series in '92 vs Portland, Terry Porter destroyed him, or his '96 series vs Gary Payton, where Stockton averaged a triple single, or how he got knocked out of the 1st round a bunch of times despite having HCA. His numbers in general went down in the playoffs. Fans today in general just don't do the research on older players.

With all that said, I still have him at #6 in my PG list strictly because of longevity, ahead of Isiah, Kidd, GP etc. Overall, Stockton was a well rounded player, but his prime play was nothing to go crazy over. Never in the MVP convo & never separated himself from the other points guards in the league even after Magic was gone.
2.3 to 2.5 in more minutes. Per 36 minutes, they only increased 2.4 to 2.5. Barely anything, he's DESPERATE because the stats show Stockton was a bigger choker.

[Baller234]

There's no point in debating who was better between Stockton and Malone who needed who more. Obviously they were both 1/2 of the equation.

But the fact is they were both GREAT players. And they had each other for their ENTIRE career.

Chris Paul didn't get to play with another great player until much later in his career. Blake Griffin wasn't a pimple on Malone's ass.

[Baller234]

dbl

[Full Court]

Paul's turnovers went from 2.3 to 2.5, hardly an increase. :oldlol:

Obviously both Malone & Stockton both benefited from playing with each other. In Stockton's case, the pick & roll offense with Malone inflated his assist numbers, he wasn't throwing some godly passes like we saw from Magic, Nash, or Kidd. And I have no doubt some people would consider Stockton a choker if the 90's had social media. Look at his series in '92 vs Portland, Terry Porter destroyed him, or his '96 series vs Gary Payton, where Stockton averaged a triple single, or how he got knocked out of the 1st round a bunch of times despite having HCA. His numbers in general went down in the playoffs. Fans today in general just don't do the research on older players.

With all that said, I still have him at #6 in my PG list strictly because of longevity, ahead of Isiah, Kidd, GP etc. Overall, Stockton was a well rounded player, but his prime play was nothing to go crazy over. Never in the MVP convo & never separated himself from the other points guards in the league even after Magic was gone.


2.3 to 2.5 in more minutes. Per 36 minutes, they only increased 2.4 to 2.5. Barely anything, he's DESPERATE because the stats show Stockton was a bigger choker.

"Hardly an increase"....

:roll: You can't make that up. No matter how much you try to sugar coat it and church it up, his turnovers INCREASED on the big stage. Choke Paul. :lol

I know what it is. Dudley and RRR3tard are desperate to discredit Stockton because they're trying to support their phony narrative that Lebron had tougher finals competition than Jordan did. Which is silly, seeing how Lebron played against the weakest finals team OF ALL TIME, and Jordan sliced through a murderers row of all time greats on his way to three peating TWICE.

Full Court knows.

https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Fi.imgflip.com%2F1oqy1b.jpg&f=1&nofb=1&ipt=e3e4dbd2c790fd74523176aa36de66620bd139fe578558 f65d7693cea838baa3

[1987_Lakers]

"Hardly an increase"....

:roll: You can't make that up. No matter how much you try to sugar coat it and church it up, his turnovers INCREASED on the big stage. Choke Paul. :lol

I know what it is. Dudley and RRR3tard are desperate to discredit Stockton because they're trying to support their phony narrative that Lebron had tougher finals competition than Jordan did. Which is silly, seeing how Lebron played against the weakest finals team OF ALL TIME, and Jordan sliced through a murderers row of all time greats on his way to three peating TWICE.

Full Court knows.

https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Fi.imgflip.com%2F1oqy1b.jpg&f=1&nofb=1&ipt=e3e4dbd2c790fd74523176aa36de66620bd139fe578558 f65d7693cea838baa3

It all makes sense now, this was your agenda the whole time. Propping up MJ's competition so he could look better. Never was about facts with you. Not once in this thread was I thinking LeBron vs MJ, I even praised Barkley in this thread who faced MJ in the Finals.

How pathetic on your part. :lol

[Full Court]

It all makes sense now, this was your agenda the whole time. Propping up MJ's competition so he could look better. Never was about facts with you. Not once in this thread was I thinking LeBron vs MJ, I even praised Barkley in this thread who faced MJ in the Finals.

How pathetic on your part. :lol

Lies. I caught you. :roll:

Full Court knows.

[tontoz]

:facepalm @ people ranking Kidd anywhere near CP3 or Stockton. His scoring was awful. For his career he averaged 12.6 ppg with a 50.7% TS.

[tpols]

:facepalm @ people ranking Kidd anywhere near CP3 or Stockton. His scoring was awful. For his career he averaged 12.6 ppg with a 50.7% TS.

And yet he led teams further than both of them and capped with a ring as assist leader for Dallas.

Defense rebounding and athleticism matter. Jason Kidd was built like a line backer. Stockton and Paul were puny by comparison. They get rocked by that size.

[SouBeachTalents]

And yet he led teams further than both of them and capped with a ring as assist leader for Dallas.

Defense rebounding and athleticism matter. Jason Kidd was built like a line backer. Stockton and Paul were puny by comparison. They get rocked by that size.
Those were some truly abysmal conferences he was winning though. I'm genuinely not even sure the Nets get out of the first round out West.

[tontoz]

And yet he led teams further than both of them and capped with a ring as assist leader for Dallas.

Defense rebounding and athleticism matter. Jason Kidd was built like a line backer. Stockton and Paul were puny by comparison. They get rocked by that size.


Kidd certainly didn't "lead" the Mavs to a title. He averaged 8/6/5 in the Finals . :lol

His advanced stats aren't even in the same zip code as CP3 or Stockton.

[tpols]

Those were some truly abysmal conferences he was winning though. I'm genuinely not even sure the Nets get out of the first round out West.

He beat Detroit Pistons who went on to be great. Finished top 5 MVP twice and 2nd place in 2002. Instantly transformed Nets into the #1 defense.

When did Stockton finish top 5 MVP or runner up? Not even close. So for somebody to say Kidd ain't on the level of Stockton is preposterous.

Furthermore, I would take peak Chris Paul 2011 era version over Kidd. But not by much. Hes such a better shooter. Kidd is bigger and tougher. Overall the margin is slim because I dont know if Chris Paul makes back to back Finals with Kerry Kittles as his second option. He had tougher competition out West, but waaay more help.

[tpols]

Kidd certainly didn't "lead" the Mavs to a title. He averaged 8/6/5 in the Finals . :lol

His advanced stats aren't even in the same zip code as CP3 or Stockton.

Kidd led teams further than both of them as the 1st option. Chris Paul wasnt even a 2nd option when he made the Finals. John Stockton was never a 1st option in his entire career. There's levels to this shit.

[tontoz]

Kidd led teams further than both of them as the 1st option. Chris Paul wasnt even a 2nd option when he made the Finals. John Stockton was never a 1st option in his entire career. There's levels to this shit.


Kidd had a 49% TS on his first playoff run to the finals. In his 2nd it was 18 ppg with a 51.4% TS. Not impressed. His advanced stats in the playoffs in those years don't even equal the career averages of Paul/Stockton.

Put Kidd in the west that isn't getting to the finals. Put Stockton/Paul in the JV conference their team success would look a lot better.

[tpols]

1999-2004 East had the ugliest offensive numbers ever. Nobody was super efficient back then. Its hard to be when games end in the 70s and 80s as slugfest.

Its a nonsense point. Stockton had Karl Malone, not Kerry Kittles. He has zero chance of making NBA Finals on those NJ teams. Chris Paul had Blake Griffin who was arguably better than him when they played together on the Clippers, MVP Harden before he quit vs Golden State, and many many more All Star talents.

I could understand someone preferring Paul over Kidd at their best, but to say that hes not in the same stratosphere as even Stockton or Chris is an absurdly stupid thing to say mate. Hes clearly better than John and maybe hair below peak CP3.

[j3lademaster]

Kidd led teams further than both of them as the 1st option. Chris Paul wasnt even a 2nd option when he made the Finals. John Stockton was never a 1st option in his entire career. There's levels to this shit.

Van Horn, Kittles and Kmart was considered good help back then in the east. Tmac Magic had probably the worst supporting cast of all time, VC’s #2 was a center who averaged 13/10 on 43%, AI with Deke and Aaron Mckie was considered one of the better casts then. Ray Allen, Big Dog and Cassell was considered an elite trio. CP3 would absolutely own that conference.

[SouBeachTalents]

1999-2004 East had the ugliest offensive numbers ever. Nobody was super efficient back then. Its hard to be when games end in the 70s and 80s as slugfest.

Its a nonsense point. Stockton had Karl Malone, not Kerry Kittles. He has zero chance of making NBA Finals on those NJ teams. Chris Paul had Blake Griffin who was arguably better than him when they played together on the Clippers, MVP Harden before he quit vs Golden State, and many many more All Star talents.

I could understand someone preferring Paul over Kidd at their best, but to say that hes not in the same stratosphere as even Stockton or Chris is an absurdly stupid thing to say mate. Hes clearly better than John and maybe hair below peak CP3.
Why do you keep saying Kerry Kittles when he was only the 4th leading scorer on the team :lol

I'd take my chances of making the Finals with those Nets teams in the East any day over Lob City out West. The Clips were obviously more talented, but their competition was brutal, they had to get through 2 of the Spurs/Thunder/Warriors just to make the Finals.

[tpols]

Van Horn, Kittles and Kmart was considered good help back then in the east. Tmac Magic had probably the worst supporting cast of all time, VC’s #2 was a center who averaged 13/10 on 43%, AI with Deke and Aaron Mckie was considered one of the better casts then. Ray Allen, Big Dog and Cassell was considered an elite trio. CP3 would absolutely own that conference.

Chris Small going up against Ben Wallace Larry Brown Detroit wouldn't be owning anything imo. It was a different game back then. It was basically a street fight. Good luck flopping through that.

[tontoz]

1999-2004 East had the ugliest offensive numbers ever. Nobody was super efficient back then. Its hard to be when games end in the 70s and 80s as slugfest.

Its a nonsense point. Stockton had Karl Malone, not Kerry Kittles. He has zero chance of making NBA Finals on those NJ teams. Chris Paul had Blake Griffin who was arguably better than him when they played together on the Clippers, MVP Harden before he quit vs Golden State, and many many more All Star talents.

I could understand someone preferring Paul over Kidd at their best, but to say that hes not in the same stratosphere as even Stockton or Chris is an absurdly stupid thing to say mate. Hes clearly better than John and maybe hair below peak CP3.



Reggie had a 62% TS in 01/02. Ray Allen 60%. Mid 50s was the norm for guards.

Kidd had a 48.4% TS in the regular season. That was awful.

[tpols]

Van Horn, Kittles and Kmart was considered good help back then in the east. Tmac Magic had probably the worst supporting cast of all time, VC’s #2 was a center who averaged 13/10 on 43%, AI with Deke and Aaron Mckie was considered one of the better casts then. Ray Allen, Big Dog and Cassell was considered an elite trio. CP3 would absolutely own that conference.

The Nets won like 20 games before Kidd arrived.

They were projected for 35 wins in his 1st year there O/U. Ended up going 52-30 and make the Finals. Massive overachievement. That was not considered good enough help to do that.

They crushed the Over by 17 wins and the playoffs even more.

[beasted]

And yet he led teams further than both of them and capped with a ring as assist leader for Dallas.

Defense rebounding and athleticism matter. Jason Kidd was built like a line backer. Stockton and Paul were puny by comparison. They get rocked by that size.

Peak for peak, I'm not taking either of those midgets over Kidd. Nobody knows the last time a 6 foot guard lead a team to a title. It doesn't seem to work.

[k0kakw0rld]

:facepalm @ people ranking Kidd anywhere near CP3 or Stockton. His scoring was awful. For his career he averaged 12.6 ppg with a 50.7% TS.
Kidd was the better leader. He made everybody around him better. Without him there is no way the Nets reach back-to-back finals.

[SouBeachTalents]

Kidd was the better leader. He made everybody around him better. Without him there is no way the Nets reach back-to-back finals.
If you straight up remove him from the team? Did that REALLY need to be said :lol

[1987_Lakers]

I rank Stockton ahead of Kidd all-time because of his longevity, but at their peaks, I'm taking Kidd. I'll take CP3 all-time & peak wise over Kidd & Stockton.

There has never been a point guard that had both defensive/playmaking abilities like Kidd did. He transformed teams in ways CP3 did.

Instantly improved a Suns team. Phoenix immediately became a losing team once Kidd went to the Nets.

Nets went from 26 wins in 2001, to 52 wins and a Finals appearance the next season when they got Kidd. Kidd also finished 2nd in MVP voting that season behind Duncan.

Yes, Kidd did it in a weak conference, but I honestly can't see Stockton transforming teams to that level as the main dog.

[j3lademaster]

Peak for peak, I'm not taking either of those midgets over Kidd. Nobody knows the last time a 6 foot guard lead a team to a title. It doesn't seem to work.

If Isiah can do it, there’s no reason a healthy CP3 can’t. Especially if we’re talking today’s league. Kidd’s lack of a j is much more of a detriment than CP3’s size.

[1987_Lakers]

The player that hasn't been discussed alot is Nash.

I don't think fans truly appreciated him back when he played because they thought he was a product of D'Antoni, it wasn't until D'Antoni left Phoenix & Nash continued to play at a superstar level where most fans started to appreciate him more. In retrospect, he should have gotten all the respect when he won MVP in 2006 with Amare missing the entire season basically.

People also forget what good of a scorer Nash was. Took over numerous playoff games with his scoring alone. If I remember correctly, he scored close to 50 points in one playoff game vs the Mavs.

[SouBeachTalents]

The player that hasn't been discussed alot is Nash.

I don't think fans truly appreciated him back when he played because they thought he was a product of D'Antoni, it wasn't until D'Antoni left Phoenix & Nash continued to play at a superstar level where most fans started to appreciate him more. In retrospect, he should have gotten all the respect when he won MVP in 2006 with Amare missing the entire season basically.

People also forget what good of a scorer Nash was. Took over numerous playoff games with his scoring alone. If I remember correctly, he scored close to 50 points in one playoff game vs the Mavs.
Bro, he averaged 30 ppg against Dallas in that series :lol

[Overdrive]

I rank Stockton ahead of Kidd all-time because of his longevity[...]

They both played the same amount of seasons. Kidd had a few little injuries, but nothing really serious throughout his career. I doubt Stockton has that much more games. Would be shocked if it's bigger than 10% +/-.

[1987_Lakers]

Bro, he averaged 30 ppg against Dallas in that series :lol

The crazy thing is lots of fans during that time still thought Kidd was the better player of the two, currently. Even with Nash winning MVPs. That’s how strong the “Nash is a system PG” narrative was at the time.

[j3lademaster]

The crazy thing is lots of fans during that time still thought Kidd was the better player of the two, currently. Even with Nash winning MVPs. That’s how strong the “Nash is a system PG” was at the time.

Nash is honestly the perfect example of why judging players off of team accolades like championships is dumb. If 07 wasn’t rigged and Nash won fmvp we’d be talking about him being top 15 all time right now, despite him playing no different and not actually being a better player than he actually was.

[1987_Lakers]

https://www.basketballforum.com/threads/nash-product-of-system.401117/#replies

:lol

[tpols]

If you straight up remove him from the team? Did that REALLY need to be said :lol

They were a 20 win team even with All Star Marbury in his place.

Kidds intangibles were absolutely elite. Night and day change.

[tontoz]

I rank Stockton ahead of Kidd all-time because of his longevity, but at their peaks, I'm taking Kidd. I'll take CP3 all-time & peak wise over Kidd & Stockton.

There has never been a point guard that had both defensive/playmaking abilities like Kidd did. He transformed teams in ways CP3 did.

Instantly improved a Suns team. Phoenix immediately became a losing team once Kidd went to the Nets.

Nets went from 26 wins in 2001, to 52 wins and a Finals appearance the next season when they got Kidd. Kidd also finished 2nd in MVP voting that season behind Duncan.

Yes, Kidd did it in a weak conference, but I honestly can't see Stockton transforming teams to that level as the main dog.



There were other factors that "transformed" the team. KVH missed almost half the season the previous year, KMart was a rookie and Kittles missed the entire season with an injury.

[beasted]

If Isiah can do it, there’s no reason a healthy CP3 can’t. Especially if we’re talking today’s league. Kidd’s lack of a j is much more of a detriment than CP3’s size.

If i was building a team from scratch, the last thought on ny mind would be a scoring PG. Kidd is a better floor general, defender, and more veratile (post up on guards, etc) opening up offense for stretch bigs and various types of dynamic offense that you don't get with either Stockton or Paul. They're mainly pick and roll experts, and operate best in the half- court.

[tontoz]

If i was building a team from scratch, the last thought on ny mind would be a scoring PG. Kidd is a better floor general, defender, and more veratile (post up on guards, etc) opening up offense for stretch bigs and various types of dynamic offense that you don't get with either Stockton or Paul. They're mainly pick and roll experts, and operate best in the half- court.

Utah feasted on the fast break. :wtf:

If a pg can't shoot that is a huge problem in today's game. Kidd wasn't any good at finishing inside either.

[j3lademaster]

They were a 20 win team even with All Star Marbury in his place.

Kidds intangibles were absolutely elite. Night and day change.Suns won 36 and 44 games the next two years after swapping Kidd for Starbury. The 29 win season was mainly due to locker room issues because Marbury demanded a trade to NY because he wanted to play for his hometown.

Kidd has more winning intangibles for sure, but the picture you’re trying to paint with the ‘20 win after swapping him for Kidd’ thing is disingenuous and agenda driven.