Come slather yourself in rich, creamy, organic, non GMO, throwback media hate.

[Kblaze8855]

I’ve come to appreciate some of the old haters I used to be annoyed by. Not because they were better than the current crop. But because they were hating for the love of the game. And I don’t mean the game of basketball. They were hating for the love of hate. This was back when you could write something and the whole local community would read it in the paper and the players would be offended.

These days, so many of the media personalities are former players who know all the people in question and don’t give you serious(even if flawed) evaluations They don’t give you much to talk about.

Some of these old guys hated the way hate was meant to be used in sports. Just because it’s in you and you have to get it out. They weren’t on TV. They didn’t get rich off it with podcasts. They all wrote books but that’s the extent of it. Unless it was somebody like Peter Vescey, you might never even hear their voices. But they knew how to piss somebody off and they will back it up with really evaluation, even if some of it was garbage. I’m gonna share the thoughts of one of my favorite/least favorite of them.

I was reminded of him recently and assumed he had to be dead by now, but he isn’t. He’s in his mid 90s. All of these comments are from between 2002 and 2010 or so. He was a non-NBA professional player and a coach in the CBA and a scout. At this point he’s been in basketball for over 50 years but he’s been talking about it for 70 years now.

Charley Rosen. Enjoy/hate

[Kblaze8855]

Starters….




The numbers are misleading, and so is the hype. The truth is that too many "good" players are wrongly celebrated as being all-time greats. To set the record straight, here's an alphabetical list of the most overrated NBA players ever.

Charles Barkley

The Round Mound of Rebound was never in acceptable game shape. But reporting to one Houston training camp 20 pounds overweight didn't prevent him from chastising his teammates for not being serious about challenging for the championship. Also, he only played defense when the spirit moved him — which was very seldom. These days, he complains about not having played with top-flight teammates — left unsaid, however, is the fact that Barkley's self-involved style of play did nothing to compliment whatever talents his teammates did have. Over the course of his career, Barkley's selfishness and total lack of discipline made him a chronic underachiever.


Walt Bellamy
He was lazy, sloppy, soft, selfish, defenseless, and useless in the clutch. The media called him "Big Bells," but his fellow players had another name for him — "Tinker Bell". His career averages of 20.1 points and 13.7 rebounds per game notwithstanding, what's Bellamy doing in the Hall of Fame?


Patrick Ewing

Patrick Ewing wasn't exactly his best when the game was on the line. (Otto Greule Jr. / Getty Images)

Had he played out of the spotlight in someplace like Orlando or Salt Lake City, Ewing would be remembered as a jump-shooting center who worked hard. Period. With the adulatory New York fans and media filtering their perceptions through the lens of their need to have heroes to celebrate, Ewing was celebrated as being far better than he really was. In truth, he couldn't handle, pass, move laterally, and do anything worthwhile when an important game was on the line. Moreover, his dim apprehension of what the game was all about precluded any thoughts of being unselfish. Except for the early days of the Mets and the Brooklyn Dodgers, New York sports fans rarely hitch their devotion to a loser like Ewing.


George Gervin
Double-G was a great scorer, smooth and virtually unstoppable. And that's all, folks. He couldn't (or didn't) pass, defend, or rebound. Gervin's idea of team basketball was when a teammate passed him the ball. Of necessity, his San Antonio teams played high-octane offense and flat-tire defense. That's why Gervin never played in a championship series.


Connie Hawkins
He could finish in spectacular ways, and he could make both plain and simple passes. Otherwise, he couldn't shoot, rebound, run, or play defense. How bad was the Hawk's defense? The first time he played in Madison Square Garden, the Suns tried to hide Hawkins' atrocious defense by matching him up with Dick Barnett. Too bad Barnett was so insulted by the ploy that he lit up Hawkins for 35 points. Also, nobody ever accused Hawkins of having a passion to play basketball: He once told the Suns that he couldn't play that night because he had a fever. A doctor was summoned, and Hawkins' temperature registered at 98.9. As a result, Hawkins felt justified to sit on the bench in his civvies. Hawkins was all flash and very little substance.


Elvin Hayes
He could do three things — rebound, block shots, and shoot a high percentage on turnaround jumpers from the left box. He couldn't pass, handle, play honest defense, or hit a clutch shot to get into heaven. In addition, he paid no attention to the basketball alphabet of Xs and Os. All he cared about was "me-ball-basket."

[1987_Lakers]

Aren't Charley Rosen & Phil Jackson long time friends?

I remember reading a Rosen article years ago on his most overrated players ever, he hated Pistol Pete.

[Kblaze8855]

continued






Karl Malone
I've been on this guy's case many times before, and for the same reasons. He found various ways to choke in the 1996 Conference finals and in the 1997 and 1998 Finals — missed free throws, damaging turnovers, ill-advised shots, losing gambles on defense, and so on. In addition, his passing skills and his defense were both overblown, and his assist-turnover ration was a horrendous 5:4. There are only two reasons why Malone is deemed to be an elite power-forward — John Stockton, and longevity.


Bob McAdoo
Here's all anyone needs to know about McAdoo's game: When he played against the Celtics, McAdoo was usually defended by Dave Cowens. Now Cowens was a legitimate tough guy who always played with intensity, power, and courage, and whose rough-house tactics on defense would often approach minor felonies. At the start of McAdoo's matchups with Cowens, B-Mac would assume his favorite position on the left box. Perhaps he'd even get a shot off. Perhaps he'd even get fouled. But Cowens would definitely assault him with elbows, knees, hips, forearms, and fists. By the middle of the first quarter, McAdoo would post-up five feet beyond the box. By the end of the fourth quarter, he'd be looking to receive the ball near the 3-point line. Anything to avoid contact. In other words, McAdoo was nothing more than a big, quick, soft, jump-shooter deluxe.


Pete Maravich
A one-man circus who wouldn't throw a pass unless it was behind the back or through the legs or in one ear and out the other. And his completion rate was barely above .500. His ball-hogging made him unpopular with his teammates, but scored big-time with the media. It's no accident that his teams were always pretenders and never contenders. It also says here that Maravich was the worst defender in NBA history.


Gary Payton
G.P. has always been a shoot-first point guard, favoring post-ups, open middles, and high-and-low screens to locate his shots. He was also a confrontational player, demanding perfection form his teammates and his coaches, but never from himself. Payton's reputation for playing outstanding defense gained him All-Defense honors for nine seasons, and a famous nickname, "The Glove." Even so, during the 1996 Finals, the Chicago Bulls set out to prove something that they already knew — that Payton's rep was mostly bogus. In lieu of playing solid contain defense, Payton routinely gambled for steals at every opportunity, and when he failed he put his teammates in jeopardy. The Bulls limited Payton's room to maneuver by posting Michael Jordan, who had little difficulty catching, shooting, driving, and generally having his way against G.P. Payton's game was, and is, less than meets the eye.


David Robinson
This guy was a cream puff. He could come from the weak-side to block shots, but he couldn't guard his own man. He could rebound, but rarely in a crowd. He could score, but only on foul-line jumpers, or only if a defender bought a head fake after he drove his left hand into the middle. He couldn't pass or handle. He couldn't stand his ground in the paint. And, according to one of his ex-coaches, he never worked on his game in the off-season simply because he really didn't like playing basketball. Had he not played alongside of Tim Duncan, The Admiral would have been lost at sea.

[Kblaze8855]

Years later




Most Overrated

Kenyon Martin
Chris Webber
Baron Davis
Allen Iverson
Carmelo Anthony
Vince Carter
Carlos Boozer

Dis-Honorable mentions: Kobe Bryant,Elton Brand, Stephon Marbury,Kevin Garnett, Pau Gasol,Keith Van Horn, Jamal Mashburn,Shareef Abdur-Rahim,Glenn Robinson, Darius Miles, Peja Stojakovic


Most Underrated

1. Jason Kidd
2. Maurice Taylor
3. James Posey
4. Gordon Giricek
5. Andre Miller
6. Derek Anderson
7. Jeff Foster

Honorable Mentions: Alvin Williams, Aaron Williams, Eric Williams, Jerome Williams, Matt Harpring, Morris Peterson, Mark Blount, Walter McCarty, Eduardo Najera, Adrian Griffin, Anthony Johnson, Shane Battier, Earl Watson, Rafer Alston, Desmond Mason, Lucious Harris, George Lynch, Greg Buckner, and Darius Songaila.

[Kblaze8855]

Mid 2000s






Don't be fooled by stats, fan-voted All-Star Game appearances, highlighted plays and/or media hype. While every combatant in the NBA is a truly great player, too many of them are gauged by misleading standards.

Here are the most grossly over-valued, not-so superstars.


Chris Andersen

Yes, he can run, jump and dash to the ball from the weak side to dramatically block shots. And his masquerading as a tall, tattooed fowl is amusing if juvenile. But he can't shoot a lick and, most importantly, is incapable of adequately defending virtually any opponent on a man-to-man basis. What Andersen does is surely crowd-pleasing and can occasionally impact the outcome of a game, but it's mostly phony defense.


Gilbert Arenas

He's on this particular list because of his numerous forced shots, his inability to run an offense and his miserable lack of both on- and off-the-ball defense. Also, don't forget the many times he's choked in the deciding moments of playoff games. Arenas' game is less than meets the eye.


Carlos Boozer

He can score from the low post, hit mid-range jumpers and is — at best — a two-space rebounder. On the downside, Boozer either can't or won't play defense, is an erratic passer and handler, can't run, can't move laterally and just doesn't play as vigorously without the ball as he does when the rock is in his hands. Smart teams have an easy time neutralizing Boozer's effectiveness.


Chris Bosh

What does this guy do? Shoot jumpers. Grab mostly finesse rebounds. Shoot more jumpers. Register more turnovers than assists. Keep on shooting jumpers. Play inferior defense except in the sub-par competition of international play. He does enough to fill up a stat sheet, but not enough to be a bona-fide franchise player


Marcus Camby

Like Andersen, he can block shots coming from the weak side but can be attacked with profit in straight-up defensive situations. He's also shot-happy, rarely grabs his rebounds in heavy and hostile traffic and is a terrible passer. And the fact that during his 13-year career the combined record of the teams he's played for is a dismal 459-573 suggests that Camby is a loser.


Kevin Garnett

His performance in the 2008 NBA Finals against the Lakers was a good indication of where he's really at.

# In Boston's six-point loss in Game 3, Garnett shot 6-for-21.

# In Boston's five-point loss in Game 5, Garnett scored only 13 points and missed several shots in the fourth quarter.

# In Boston's championship-clinching, 39-point win in Game 6, Garnett registered his series high of 26 points.

In other words, it is well-known among the league's coaches that Garnett is a frontrunner who will inevitably choke when a critical game is up for grabs.


Al Harrington

For the initial 36 minutes or thereabouts, Harrington is one of the most dynamic scorers in the NBA. Forget that he doesn't pass, execute or play a semblance of defense. The young man can set a scoreboard on fire. Come the clutch, however, and Harrington takes (and misses) bad shots, even misses good shots, chases the ball at both ends of the court and makes foolish mistakes. For example, how many extra fourth-quarter points did he allow the Knicks' opponents to score in tight games by foolishly hanging on the rim? Too many. As much as he wants to start, Harrington is best suited to be a designated scorer off the bench who should stay glued to the bench in the endgame.


Stephen Jackson

He's a streaky, low-percentage shooter with absolutely no conscience. His defense is strictly imaginary. His ball-handling skills are far below average for a backcourt player. He thinks he's a leader, but nobody wants to follow him.


Brad Miller

This guy could easily be the least athletic big man in the NBA. In fact, several of the league's most prominent centers have privately expressed their embarrassment whenever Miller scores double digits against them. And despite his bulky frame, he's about as tough as the Pillsbury Dough Boy. Yes, Miller can hit open shots and make nifty passes. But he survives mainly because defenders tend to ignore him.



Chris Paul

There's no doubt that CP3 has always been a truly great passer and has also worked diligently to become a dangerous 3-point shooter. But there are several reasons why he belongs in this dubious category.

# In half-court offenses, he's a threat to do damage only in screen-and-roll situations, which means that doubling him virtually renders him impotent.

# Because of his diminutive size — listed at 6-feet but closer to 5-foot-10 — he can be easily doubled.

# His defense consists of steals. Period. Which in turn depends mostly on opponents' mistakes.

# Many opponents simply take the ball to their favorite spot and then shoot over him.

# Even when using a screen-and-roll, he's not nearly as effective going left as he is going right.

When was the last time that a pipsqueak-sized point guard led his team to an NBA championship? Slater Martin with the St. Louis Hawks in 1958 — which means that while Paul's Hornets will be a good team, they'll never be good enough.


Dishonorable mention

The following multi-talented players have led their respective teams nowhere for so many years that their being overrated is no longer news. Stephon Marbury, who only last week still insisted that he's the best point guard in the NBA. Dirk Nowitzki. Baron Davis. Peja Stojakovic. Amare Stoudemire. Vince Carter. Larry Hughes. Corey Maggette. Shawn Marion. Kenyon Martin. Tracy McGrady. Jermaine O'Neal. Wally Szczerbiak. And last and least, Allen Iverson.

[warriorfan]

It is pretty harsh but a lot of what they said isn’t untrue.

[1987_Lakers]

https://www.espn.com/blog/truehoop/post/_/id/487/charley-rosen-s-all-over-rated-team

Wish I could find the exact article. Can't believe that was 20 years ago. :lol

Edit: Looks like OP found it.

[Kblaze8855]

This is like 2012





Overrated:


http://realcavsfans.com/images/misc/quote_icon.png LeBron James heads the list because despite his gargantuan numbers he still has to prove that he's not a quitter (remember the concluding two games of last season's Celtics-Cavs series?) and not a loser. Moreover, although he's become celebrated for running down and blocking breakaways, his posture is still too upright for him to play adequate defense against quick-footed opponents.



Dwight Howard is a good defensive helper, but only when a savvy offense hasn't sucked him out of position. At the same time, he's unable to adequately defend opposing big men who can turn-face-and-go. Plus, instead of elevating his own performance he'd rather whine in public about his teammates' shortcomings.



His entire argument for Kobe being overrated after years of being one of his most vocal haters and not wanting to repeat himself:




Kobe Bryant



.

[Kblaze8855]

A few he liked



Underrated:





http://realcavsfans.com/images/misc/quote_icon.png DeAndre Jordan is a relentless rebounder and shot-blocker who has learned to play adhesive man-to-man defense and makes wonderful off-the-ball cuts on offense. He's a championship-caliber, role-playing center.

Dwyane Wade is a proven winner who plays legitimate defense, delivers in the clutch, and is pound-for-pound better than LeBron.


Beno Udrih has transformed from being a point guard who couldn't to a shooting guard who can. The only concern here is the temptation to overvalue high-scorers on bad teams.



Delonte West is exactly the tough-as-nails wing-defender the Celtics will need to supplant the Lakers.

Anthony Parker plays earnest defense and can hit open and turn-around jumpers. His complimentary talents were overshadowed when LeBron dominated the Cavs' game plan. These days, the Cavs are so bad that Parker's special talents are superfluous.



Nick Collison battles on every play and is a terrific fourth man in a four-man frontcourt rotation.

Tony Allen can't shoot a lick but can play ornery defense against anybody.


http://realcavsfans.com/images/misc/quote_icon.png Lamar Odom is too often overlooked since Kobe Bryant and Pau Gasol usually garner the headlines. If LO's line-drive jumpers are erratic, he's accomplished in every other facet of the game. Indeed, his long-arms, guard-like handle, quick-feet, and lefty-slants provide an extra gear for the Lakers high-octane attack. Whether he plays the small forward or the power forward slots, Odom always presents unsolvable matchup problems.







http://realcavsfans.com/images/misc/quote_icon.png DeJuan Blair deserves considerable credit for the Spurs remarkable success. He's always been a ferocious rebounder (especially on the offensive end) and has learned to play above-average defense. Moreover, the young man has developed an effective fall-back jumper in the lane.

[Kblaze8855]

When asked about Pau vs Dirk





My TeamLos Angeles LakersPost Count1,320https://www.spurstalk.com/forums/images/NBA/Los%20Angeles%20Lakers.gif

Quote:
http://cache.daylife.com/imageserve/0grmc4U6mef7U/610x.jpg

Who's better, Pau Gasol or Dirk Nowitzki?— Ian Guballa, Santiago City, Philippines

It isn't possible to make a truly equitable evaluation of these two players simply because their roles on their current teams are so different. Whereas Nowitzki is the Mavs' go-to scorer, Gasol is the Lakers' second-option.

In any case, Nowitzki has a decided edge in a number of categories: strength, shooting range, the ability to create his own shots, free-throw shooting, and handling in a broken field. If Gasol's lifetime shooting percentage is considerably higher than Nowitzki's, it's only because the latter routinely takes more perimeter shots. And both have exceptional off-hands.

Nowitzki scores more points because he takes more shots and is also more adept at inducing fouls and getting to the stripe.

There isn't much to choose between the two in the rebounding department, with Gasol being a better offensive rebounder and Nowitzki having the edge in defensive retrievals.

It's difficult to discern who is more dependable in the clutch, simply because Nowitzki (with Dallas) has been involved in many more tight endgame situations than has Gasol (with Memphis). On the basis of Gasol's performance in last season's championship series — which was mostly solid but often spotty and never spectacular — the jury is still out.

Although neither is more than adequate on defense, Gasol's longer arms make him the superior shot-blocker. Also give the advantage to Gasol in passing, and basketball IQ. On the basis of these last two criteria, Gasol gets a slight edge.

[Kblaze8855]

It is pretty harsh but a lot of what they said isn’t untrue.


What I like is how hard it is to dismiss as the rantings of someone who just wants to prop someone else up. Yea he hates Kobe. But he haaaates Lebron. And from before day one:

He was on his ass in high school









tuned.


Big deal!Yes, James has good hands, quick feet, extraordinary hops, and a lively body. Yes, he's also an outstanding passer. But his defense is atrocious.
His basic defensive stance is much too upright.
When defending a perimeter player, his hands are in his pockets.
When his team tried a full-court press, one of Oak Hill's guards absolutely left him in the dust.


He always looks for the easy way out, making perfunctory swipes at the ball, and gambling on every entry pass.


His transition from offense to defense is shameful. Instead of hustling downcourt, he lingers near the ball, hoping for a steal.




He always looks for the easy way out, making perfunctory swipes at the ball, and gambling on every entry pass. His transition from offense to defense is shameful. Instead of hustling downcourt, he lingers near the ball, hoping for a steal. His post-up defense offers less resistance than a soft summer's breeze.







His post-up defense offers less resistance than a soft summer's breeze.


In short, LeBron James can't guard his own shadow.
What other shortcomings did the young hoopling reveal?
A barely adequate left hand.
A shaky behind-the-back dribble going left to right.


What's the one talent he possesses that will survive his entry into the NBA? His court vision and his ability to pass the ball.


In high school, LeBron James might be a man among boys -- but in the NBA, he'll be a boy among men. Skilled, experienced, powerful, and above all, ruthless men.
After the media hysteria dies down, after his arrogance is reduced to real humility, he might very well develop into a franchise player. But let's not reserve a wing in the Hall of Fame for LeBron James just yet.

Charley Rosen, a former coach in the Continental Basketball Association, has been intimately involved with basketball for the better part of five decades -- as a writer, a player, a coach and a passionate fan. Rosen's books include "More Than a Game," (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/1583220607/qid=1033572684/sr=8-2/ref=sr_8_2/104-0701140-0953511?v=glance&n=507846)"The Cockroach Basketball League," (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/1888363789/qid=1033572684/sr=8-3/ref=sr_8_3/104-0701140-0953511?v=glance&n=507846) "The Wizard of Odds: How Jack Molinas Almost Destroyed the Game of Basketball," (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/1583222685/qid=1033572684/sr=8-1/ref=sr_8_1/104-0701140-0953511?v=glance&n=507846)"Scandals of '51: How the Gamblers Almost Killed College Basketball" (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/1888363916/ref=pd_bxgy_text_1/104-0701140-0953511?v=glance) and "The House of Moses All-Stars: A Novel." (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/1888363339/qid=1033572878/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_1/104-0701140-0953511?v=glance)








https://www.espn.com/i/page2/v2/columnist/name_rosen2.gif
BASKETBALL DIARY
https://www.espn.com/i/page2/v2/columnist/photo_rosen.gif






ALSO SEE:

Charley Rosen Archive (http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/archive?columnist=rosen_charley&root=page2)

Rosen: The rap on T-Mac (https://www.espn.com/page2/s/rosen/021210.html)

Rosen: The Hidden NBA, Part 2 (https://www.espn.com/page2/s/rosen/021205.html)

Rosen: NBA backstage (https://www.espn.com/page2/s/rosen/021204.html)

Rosen: Mirage at MSG (https://www.espn.com/page2/s/rosen/021126.html)

Rosen: The evolution of Larry Brown (https://www.espn.com/page2/s/rosen/021122.html)

Rosen: Mavericks are top guns (https://www.espn.com/page2/s/rosen/No%20matching%20template)

Rosen: Why all the fuss? (https://www.espn.com/page2/s/rosen/No%20matching%20template)

Rosen: Kings of self-delusion (https://www.espn.com/page2/s/rosen/021111.html)

Rosen: Like father, like Kobe (https://www.espn.com/page2/s/rosen/021104.html)

Rosen: Trouble in paradise (https://www.espn.com/page2/s/rosen/No%20matching%20template)










ESPN TOOLS

http://espn.go.com/i/mail.gif Email story (https://www.espn.com/page2/s/rosen/021213.html#)

http://espn.go.com/i/most.gif Most sent (http://sports.espn.go.com/sports/mostsent)

http://espn.go.com/i/print.gif Print story (http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/print?id=1476299&type=page2Story)











and when he actually saw him in the league?




"A note to long-suffering Cavaliers' fans: Don't get caught in the LeBron James pipe dream. The best King James can ever be is an average NBA player."

[Kblaze8855]

It’s just refreshing to not be able to say he hates _____ because of _____ because he hates _____ too.

He has both Barkley and Malone as overrated….and Dirk and KG as well. He hates everyone from AI to Mutombo. He hates the knuckleheads like Darius Miles but hates David Robinson too.

Its hard to pin down his motivation….

To prop up Jordan maybe? Except he spent 20 years pointing out all Jordan’s rivals were bums. Almost sounds like a “We done with the 90s!” poster if you didn’t know better.

He basically shit on every star but Jordan, Duncan, and Stockton.

He was an equal opportunity hater. And that’s really all you can ask.

Just be fair…even if you’re a dick.

[Phoenix]

"Dwyane Wade is a proven winner who plays legitimate defense, delivers in the clutch, and is pound-for-pound better than LeBron."

I've been watching mid 2000s Wade highlights recently, and he was so relentless attacking the rim. Easily the best SG slasher since 80s MJ at that time, and hasn't been eclipsed in that regard since. People like to pretend like Wade and Lebron wasn't a real conversation before they teamed up, like they like to pretend Tmac and Kobe circa 2003 wasn't a thing.

[ShawkFactory]

Based on these analyses I’d wager Duncan is his favorite player ever. Or Jordan obviously.

[tpols]

I didn't know David Robinson had the Andrew Bynum syndrome. Makes sense how Hakeem dominated him now. How can you be built like Adonis and also be a nerdy black guy? Mosy of us would've done more with those genetics. :lol

[Kblaze8855]

Based on these analyses I’d wager Duncan is his favorite player ever. Or Jordan obviously.

It’s hard to say for sure. I think it’s either Jordan, Russell, or Oscar. He did a positional goat list once that is so many words it looks like some shit I’d post after 20 minutes of speech to text wandering around a vacation home waiting for anyone else to wake up….but I’ll post some of them

[Kblaze8855]

On the era issue…


Of course, comparing players from radically different eras is always a risky business. George Mikan, for example, would be severely drubbed in one-on-one battles versus the likes of Shaq, Wilt and Kareem. Despite that fact, Mikan can arguably be seen as the most influential player of his time, and his Minneapolis Lakers were the NBA's first dynasty. So the intent here is more mindful of the total NBA historical continuum than dependant on today's existential realities.


It's likewise important to note the variances in styles of play over the last 60 seasons — pre-shot-clock and post-shot-clock, the twin-towers concept and small-ball strategies, as well as the different demands made on players by their respective teams. Despite these inexact specifications, the players in each category will be competitively







POINT GUARDS


1. — OSCAR ROBERTSON


The Big O was equally as versatile as Magic and nearly as strong. Indeed, Robertson's talents covered the entire scope and possibilities of the game. He could do everything at the highest level — rebound, pass, set picks, dribble, box out, run and shut anyone down on defense. In 1961-62, Robertson averaged a triple-double — 30.8 points, 12.5 rebounds and 11.4 assists. He wasn't boasting when he said, years later, "If I had known it was such a big deal, I would've averaged a triple-double for my entire career." He understood every nuance of the game and demanded the same perfection from his teammates. Robertson was also a fierce and ruthless competitor.


What did he lack?


Three-point range, only because the 3-ball hadn't been instituted. And according to Nate Thurmond, "Oscar couldn't fly, but he did everything else better than Michael Jordan."


Whatever the position, whatever the standards of the era, Oscar Robertson was the most perfect basketball player ever.


2. — MAGIC JOHNSON


Magic was a rarity. At 6-foot-9, 235 pounds, he was a legitimate triple-threat — inside, outside and on the run. His sheer size advantage allowed him to have an unobstructed view of the entire court and effectively prohibited opponents from contesting any pass he chose to throw. In addition to his remarkable size and strength, Magic had an incomparable handle (his high rate of turnovers was a function of the inordinate time the ball was in his hands), made excellent decisions with the ball, was an incredible finisher and was absolutely the best fast-break trigger man ever.


What else could he do?


Post-up and fill the net with hook shots. Eat up space in rapid fashion with his long strides. Blast his way through traffic. Rebound. Shoot free throws. Maximize the abilities of his teammates. Rise to virtually every clutch situation. And win.


What couldn't he do?


His drive-and-dish capabilities were severely restricted by Kareem Abdul-Jabbar's being ensconced in the pivot. Not until his latter years did Magic develop an effective outside shot — an old-timey shot-put-one-hander. And throughout his career his defense was shamefully poor.


Johnson also had a magic touch with the media. The bright smile, the up-beat comments, the total availability. But when the red light was switched off, Magic often had another agenda.


Like the first time Magic met with the Lakers' new coach, Mike Dunleavy, at a players association meeting back in 1990. Dunleavy sought out Magic for a pre-season confab, and as they strolled along the beach, he handed Johnson the playbook he planned to implement for the upcoming season. Magic proceeded to toss the playbook into the ocean, point to his head and say, "The playbook is in here."


3. — JERRY WEST


West was one of the most deadly pull-up jump shooters of all time. He rarely went left, simply because he never had to (the official NBA logo with West dribbling left-handed must be a negative image). But he'd move to his right at full speed, execute one hard-and-last dribble that would propel him skyward and the ball was shot and gone in a jiffy. He was a good, if not exceptional passer, and his long arms and quick-hops made him a surprisingly effective finisher.


Jerry West's number was always called whenever a game was on the line. (Wen Roberts / Getty Images)


Those same long arms (fastened to high-shoulders) likewise made West an outstanding defender. Indeed, opposing players were warned not to attempt a pass whenever West was the lone defender in a 2-on-1 fast-breaking situation — simply because his reach and hand-speed would get a piece of all but the most precise passes.


While acknowledging his authentic greatness, several of his peers still insist that West was also cast by the media as a white hope who was therefore given much more credit than he truly deserved. And because he was never satisfied with his own or his teammates' play in any given game, West was never a popular figure in the locker room. But his coaches all loved him for playing all out all the time, and they made sure that "Mr. Clutch's" number was called whenever a game was on the line.


4. — JOHN STOCKTON


Stockton was a point-guard in the classic mold. Primarily a passer, Stockton shot the ball only when necessary. He was a master at changing speeds off his dribble, at jumping into his defender while releasing a shot and thusly drawing fouls, at moving without the ball, at hitting open shots (especially in the clutch) and a sneakily effective offensive rebounder. His decision-making in screen/roll situations was impeccable, and he also relished setting screens himself — usually with elbows flashing, a characteristic that moved opponents to call him a border-line dirty player. (Stockton was a nasty character, both on and off the court.) Although he'd gamble on steals, chase the ball too much and overreact to ball-penetration, Stockton's defense was surprisingly effective.


Stockton rarely got to orchestrate fast breaks in Jerry Sloan's grind-it-out offenses. But when the Jazz did get out and run, Stockton's exceptional judgment was likewise in evidence.


Too bad the prime of Stockton's career coincided with the Bulls' Jordanian dynasty. He did, however, propel the Jazz into back-to-back finals appearances. Some could say that Stockton made Karl Malone appear to be a much better player than he may have actually been.


5. — WALT FRAZIER


Clyde's cooler-than-thou demeanor masked his fiercely competitive nature. He could muscle and/or slick his way to the basket, and was a high-percentage jump shooter who rarely forced a shot. Frazier could also rebound like a big guy, hit the open man and, above all, he could defend. Indeed, overlooked in Willis Reed's courageous performance in Game 7 of the 1970 Knicks-Lakers championship go-round, were Frazier's 36 points, 19 assists and smothering defense on Jerry West. Steals were his specialty, as were big-time jumpers.


Walt Frazier was the ultimate "team player" for the Knicks. ( / Getty Images)


Under the tutelage of coach Red Holzman, Frazier learned the value of the team game and was willing to sacrifice numbers for rings. He also learned that freedom unchecked by structure led to chaos, and that only within a system could freedom become a bountiful creativity. And despite his casual game-face, Frazier played with a precision that was based on an intricate understanding of Xs and Os.


Frazier was never a jet and was most comfortable with the ball in his hands, but he was a winner.

[Kblaze8855]

Rest




6. — DENNIS JOHNSON


Forget about his scoring prowess (14.1 ppg over his 14-year career, with a high of 19.5 for Phoenix in 1981-82), forget about his three championship rings (one with Seattle in 1979, two with Boston in 1984 and 1986), Dennis Johnson was simply the best big-time defensive guard in league history. In fact, DJ was the only defender who could force Magic to turn his back on the Lakers' offense in order to protect, and maintain possession of, the ball.


Johnson also proved that nice guys can finish first.


7. — LENNY WILKENS


Mister Smooth glided through a ball game in total control of every situation. Did his team need a pop shot, a slick pass, or even an occasional rebound? Wilkens could deliver. How about a steal, or the rescue of a loose ball? Wilkens would get it done.


He wasn't strong or flashy, and his defense was merely adequate. But like John Wesley Harding, Wilkens was never known to make a foolish move, with the notable exception of agreeing to coach the Knicks!


8. — RALPH BEARD


Never heard of him? That's because Beard played only two seasons in the league — 1949-51 with the Indianapolis Olympians. In his rookie season, Beard was named to the All-NBA Second Team, and for an encore, he was voted to the First Team. Unfortunately, he was subsequently banned from the NBA when it was discovered that during his All-American career at the University of Kentucky, Beard (along with several other teammates) had taken money from gamblers to alter the score of ball games. Beard did indeed take the money, but only because doing so was a time-honored tradition at UK. Still, he was such a ferocious competitor that he never even tried to rig a score.


His game featured error-free passes, headlong drives to the rim and shut-down defense. According to Adolph Rupp, the only flaws in Beard's game were an erratic left hand, and inconsistency at the foul line. (During Beard's brief tenure in the NBA, his free throw accuracy was 77 percent.) Otherwise, the notoriously hard-to-please Rupp believed that Beard was "an almost perfect basketball player."


In the long history of the NBA, no one ever played with more intensity than Ralph Beard.


Other candidates — Slater Martin, Dick McGuire, Bob Cousy, Guy Rodgers, Bob Davies, Jason Kidd and Isiah Thomas.

[Kblaze8855]

All these are too long but I’ll give you half the 2 guard list:





No. 1 — MICHAEL JORDAN
This pick is a layup.


Most go-to scorers tend to coast on defense to conserve energy for their ball-time responsibilities. Jordan was the rare exception whose unyielding defense allowed him to win ball games with clutch plays at either end of the court.


Besides his transcendent talents, the X-factor in Jordan's success was his incredible competitive edge. MJ would practice with more intensity than most of his peers demonstrated during games. And if a team's superstar practiced with all his might, then the last scrub on the bench was motivated to do the same.


The most amazing single basketball play that I've ever witnessed was performed by Michael Jordan: In October 1989, when I was coaching the Rockford Lightning in the Continental Basketball Association, I happened to be at the Deerfield Multiplex for Chicago Bulls' initial training camp session of the season. Since the Bulls were Rockford's NBA "affiliate," I had dibs on every draft choice and free agent who would eventually be cut by the Bulls. The player I was looking hardest at was Matt Brust, a 6-4 tough guy signed as camp fodder out of St. John's.


Besides having incredible talent, Michael Jordan possessed intense competitiveness.


For the first few days of any training camp, the protocol is traditional: The important veteran players cruise through the drills and scrimmages, while everybody else busts their hump from baseline to baseline. That's why, in an otherwise lukewarm scrimmage, Jordan came sashaying to the basket in a semi-break situation, casually gearing up to amuse the in-crowd with his first slam-bang dunk of the new season. But Brust, hustling like his pants were on fire, caught up with Jordan and proceeded to His Airness on his royal keister.


BAM! Jordan went down and didn't move for a few moments. Suddenly the gym was hushed as the trainers scurried onto the court. The only sound was Jerry Krause choking on one of his breakfast donuts ...


... until Jordan finally climbed to his feet, shook off the ministrations of the trainers, and motioned for the scrimmage to resume. But the fearsome look in MJ's eyes foretold a revenge that would be both devastating and creative.


On the very next sequence Jordan pilfered a careless pass and was once again headed hoopward-and there was Brust, chasing the ball and intent on a command performance.


The first hint of trouble was when Jordan slowed down somewhat to allow Brust to catch him. Then, as before, Jordan elevated to the basket, palming the ball in his right hand. This time, just as Brust launched another audacious attack on Jordan's august person, MJ made a preemptive strike, smashing his left elbow into the rookie's forehead. Then, while still levitated, Jordan switched the ball to his left hand, reached around to the far side of the rim, and shivered the entire gym with a thunderous dunk.


For Jordan, score two points and a KO.


For Brust, a mild concussion and an early retirement.


No. 2 — BILL SHARMAN
Sharman rates just behind Jordan as the best scorer-defender at his position. Renowned for his deadly one-hander, and his faultless execution of whatever plays Red Auerbach had scripted, Sharman was an incredibly gifted athlete. (He sat on the Brooklyn Dodgers' bench during the 1951 stretch run, and was also an outstanding tennis player and golfer.)


In addition to his scoring heroics, Sharman was a scrappy rebounder, a diligent passer, as well as a reliable ball-handler and caretaker.


Sharman's tenacious defense went unnoticed by most fans and the media. But among his contemporaries, his strength, quickness and sheer will-power were proverbial. In the hey days of the Cousy-Russell dynasty, it was Sharman who was entrusted with taking the win-or-lose shot, and also for defending the opponents' most explosive backcourtsman.


His world-class talent and his indomitable work ethic certainly contributed to Sharman's success, but he also paid attention to every detail and every nuance of the game. During his 11-year NBA career (that featured being named the MVP of the 1955 All-Star game, as well as four Celtic championships), Sharman's voluminous post-game notes to himself were legendary.


Moreover, he was one of the few championship-caliber players who later became successful coaches (Sharman was the NBA's Coach of the Year when his Lakers won the title in 1972). As a player, coach, general manager, and consultant (his current job with the Lakers), Sharman always was a winner.


No. 3 — SAM JONES
The scoring half of the Celtics' fabled Jones Boys, Sam's bank shots were guaranteed by the FDIC. For a designated shooter, Jones was a passable passer and rebounder, and his ambushing of the passing lanes (to say nothing of Bill Russell forever lurking in the paint) made him an effective defender. Nobody utilized screens better than S. Jones, and nobody (with the notable exception of Drazen Petrovic) had a quicker release.


From 1962-1968, Jones was Boston's dreadnaught scorer, reaching a highwater mark of 25.9 ppg in 1964-65. But Jones always saved his best shots for playoff competition — if he tallied over 20 ppg for only four regular seasons, he topped that in seven championship runs.


Jones was smart, tough, and a relentless practitioner of the Celtics' vaunted fast break--invariably ignited by a rebound and outlet pass from Russell. Everybody knows that Number Six won eleven championship rings, but guess who's second in that department. Sam Jones, with ten.


No. 4 — KOBE BRYANT
For sheer talent, only MJ can outshine Kobe Bryant. Still only 26 years old, Kobe excels at nearly every aspect of the game — creativity, shooting (especially with a game on the line), rebounding, passing, defense, rebounding, and competing. His only deficiency is his rampant narcissism, a character flaw that has had serious on- and off-court consequences.


Should Kobe ever mature to the point where he can play (and live) with an abiding sense of discipline, he might conceivably challenge Jordan for the top of the heap.


Hal Greer (15) was a clutch shot-maker on one of the best teams in NBA history.
(George Kalinsky / Getty Images)


No. 5 — HAL GREER
At 6-2, Hal Greer was an undersized shooting guard, yet his strength allowed him to play much bigger. He was a dead-eye jump shooter, a surprisingly good rebounder, an accurate passer, and an earnest defender. But it was Greer's high-powered scoring prowess whenever a game was up for grabs that set him above his peers.


During Philadelphia's awesome championship season of 1966-67, Greer was the team's second-leading regular season scorer-his 22.1 ppg was surpassed only by Wilt Chamberlain's 24.1. But come the playoffs, Greer's output of 27.7 eclipsed Wilt's point-production by 6.0 ppg. Wilt always garnered the headlines, but Hal Greer was the money man on what was arguably the best NBA team ever.

[Phoenix]

It's interesting how de-prioritized the center position has become. Jokic is the only post 2000 center that's elevated himself into the top 10 GOAT center list.

[sdot_thadon]

Damn, definitely an old school hater. I was that one kid in the 80s and 90s that was allowed to talk sports with the grownups at the BBQ and sometimes thinking back players had irrational haters back then, but less of them than now by far and with no platform to voice their opinions besides over beers next to the pit lol.


It's interesting how de-prioritized the center position has become. Jokic is the only post 2000 center that's elevated himself into the top 10 GOAT center list.

Well to be fair we havent had many transcendent looking bigs get through their careers healthy for some time.

[Phoenix]

Damn, definitely an old school hater. I was that one kid in the 80s and 90s that was allowed to talk sports with the grownups at the BBQ and sometimes thinking back players had irrational haters back then, but less of them than now by far and with no platform to voice their opinions besides over beers next to the pit lol.



Well to be fair we havent had many transcendent looking bigs get through their careers healthy for some time.

That's true, though I'm not sure guys like Dwight and Yao would have broken through even if they has stayed healthy. Embiid had a chance but we see what's come of his career since 2023.

[sdot_thadon]

That's true, though I'm not sure guys like Dwight and Yao would have broken through even if they has stayed healthy. Embiid had a chance but we see what's come of his career since 2023.

Dwight's lack of offensive polish always beld him big tier back from the immortal bigs. All he needed was a few decent back to the basket moves and hed have been a shoe in, even with injuries. Yao still makes me sad to this day. The few times i was able to see him play live, just watching him run up the floor looked like a painful struggle. I knew we wouldn't have him for long.

[tpols]

It's interesting how de-prioritized the center position has become. Jokic is the only post 2000 center that's elevated himself into the top 10 GOAT center list.

Its more efficient offense to spam 3s than play slow in the low post.

[Phoenix]

Dwight's lack of offensive polish always beld him big tier back from the immortal bigs. All he needed was a few decent back to the basket moves and hed have been a shoe in, even with injuries. Yao still makes me sad to this day. The few times i was able to see him play live, just watching him run up the floor looked like a painful struggle. I knew we wouldn't have him for long.

Kareem, Wilt, Russell, Shaq, Hakeem, Moses, Robinson, Jokic, Ewing and Mikan are my 10, that's a tough list to crack. I suppose you could argue how long Mikan warrants being in from a legacy POV. Even with a few extra offensive moves I don't think you could put them over those other guys. Maayyyyyybe him and Ewing becomes a conversation if Dwight was better on offense. But the center position was already well on a downward trend when he peaked, so he may have looked a little better than he otherwise would have if you went back 10-15 years and he's having to battle Shaq/Hakeem/Robinson/Ewing/Mourning/ Mutombo.

[Tavr]

Jason Whitlock hates on everyone nowadays, but I remember when he used to write for ESPN... Nonstop and irrational Kobe slander. Down to ranking Kobe lower than he should've been because he "copied Michael Jordan". :lol There were analysts and other readers who actually thought he we being objective, but even then, I knew he was trash and a petty hater.

Someone like Bill Simmons I could give a pass to because he was genuinely a basketball nerd who had respectable knowledge (never mind being a bias Celtics fan). Definitely not Whitlock though.




I've been watching mid 2000s Wade highlights recently, and he was so relentless attacking the rim. Easily the best SG slasher since 80s MJ at that time, and hasn't been eclipsed in that regard since. People like to pretend like Wade and Lebron wasn't a real conversation before they teamed up, like they like to pretend Tmac and Kobe circa 2003 wasn't a thing.

All of this.

From 2005-2011, Wade was an absolute problem. And could hang with anyone in the league. There's years during that timespan Wade elevated so high in the playoffs it'd be hard NOT to give him that #1 spot.

[sdot_thadon]

Kareem, Wilt, Russell, Shaq, Hakeem, Moses, Robinson, Jokic, Ewing and Mikan are my 10, that's a tough list to crack. I suppose you could argue how long Mikan warrants being in from a legacy POV. Even with a few extra offensive moves I don't think you could put them over those other guys. Maayyyyyybe him and Ewing becomes a conversation if Dwight was better on offense. But the center position was already well on a downward trend when he peaked, so he may have looked a little better than he otherwise would have if you went back 10-15 years and he's having to battle Shaq/Hakeem/Robinson/Ewing/Mourning/ Mutombo.

Thats exactly who hed supplant in your list if he had moves with his strength hed have been much more dominant offensively than what we saw from him while winning dpoy a few times. That would be enough.

[FKAri]

Reading some of these I see a pattern in his preferences. He tends to over value guys who played hard and/or the "right way". A common sentiment among guys who've built up frustration from years of coaching youth ball. I'm guessing he must've coached quite a bit.

[warriorfan]

Reading some of these I see a pattern in his preferences. He tends to over value guys who played hard and/or the "right way". A common sentiment among guys who've built up frustration from years of coaching youth ball. I'm guessing he must've coached quite a bit.

Or he values players with a complete game.

[BarberSchool]

Fu@k did Charley Rosen ever do on the mf basketball court ?

To quote the great Chuck D:

“All a fkn critic does is draw a fkn line”

[ShawkFactory]

Fu@k did Charley Rosen ever do on the mf basketball court ?

To quote the great Chuck D:

“All a fkn critic does is draw a fkn line”

Had a great college basketball career, played in the pros, won a gold medal, coached for 20 years with some of the greatest to do it.

He’s harsh in his critiques, but he’s certainly qualified to be discussing it.

[Kblaze8855]

Well….

Appears he died three days before I made this topic, but wasn’t a big enough name for the news to be widely reported.

If there’s an afterlife with clear lanes of communication Pistol Pete is probably looking for him.

[ralph_i_el]

Had a great college basketball career, played in the pros, won a gold medal, coached for 20 years with some of the greatest to do it.

He’s harsh in his critiques, but he’s certainly qualified to be discussing it.

He won a gold in the Jewish Olympics (Maccabiah Games) representing America at basketball. Still an achievement, but...

[Axe]

If there’s an afterlife with clear lanes of communication Pistol Pete is probably looking for him.
Speaking of which, we've got a braindead casual around here who seriously thinks that he's a better passer than joker. :oldlol: (https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRPZqPRPHIF2xVI5uiUFQ7DcZyo3SNqM MQAlw&usqp=CAU)

[Full Court]

Speaking of which, we've got a braindead casual around here who seriously thinks that he's a better passer than joker. :oldlol: (https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRPZqPRPHIF2xVI5uiUFQ7DcZyo3SNqM MQAlw&usqp=CAU)

^Another brain dead idiot who doesn't think Maravich was a great passer. :roll:

How much you wanna bet he's a Bronie fluffer?

:lebronamazed:

[ShawkFactory]

He won a gold in the Jewish Olympics (Maccabiah Games) representing America at basketball. Still an achievement, but...

The point is he played and had been around basketball for a long time. You don’t have to be the greatest player ever to be very qualified to give your opinion of what you see on the court.

[ralph_i_el]

The point is he played and had been around basketball for a long time. You don’t have to be the greatest player ever to be very qualified to give your opinion of what you see on the court.

Sure, that just seemed like a huge misrepresentation.