Remember when Lebron got props for playing like Iverson/Westbrick in 15' Finals?

[3ba11]

Shooting 39% to lose a series in 6 games is ORDINARY, PEDESTRIAN and deserves zero props - Iverson never got props for it...

Also the lowest-skill iso's we've ever seen:


https://i.makeagif.com/media/6-05-2015/CU5j5S.gif


^^^ this isn't the 2nd best player ever OR ANYWHERE NEAR - his skill is laughable

[sdot_thadon]

Shooting 39% to lose a series in 6 games is ORDINARY, PEDESTRIAN and deserves zero props - Iverson never got props for it...

Also the lowest-skill iso's we've ever seen:


https://i.makeagif.com/media/6-05-2015/CU5j5S.gif


^^^ this isn't the 2nd best player ever OR ANYWHERE NEAR - his skill is laughable

Oh you mean that one time in nba history a guy lost both his 2nd and 3rd option by the finals? Only to face the best team in the league that year by almost every metric. Guarded by a guy one year removed from all defensive 1st team and got dpoy votes every year of his career except 2 to that point. Backed up by 2 all nba defenders as well. Yeah. Ok.

This is what happened the only time Mj was guarded by an elite defender in the finals....oh but his 5th option who made a pretty decent impact on the series was also hurt. (Harper)

In Games 4,5 and 6, Jordan averaged 23.7 points on 36.7% from the field.

Crazy how much you can see once you peel the layers back.

[3ba11]

Oh you mean that one time in nba history a guy lost both his 2nd and 3rd option by the finals? Only to face the best team in the league that year by almost every metric. Guarded by a guy one year removed from all defensive 1st team and got dpoy votes every year of his career except 2 to that point. Backed up by 2 all nba defenders as well. Yeah. Ok.

This is what happened the only time Mj was guarded by an elite defender in the finals....oh but his 5th option who made a pretty decent impact on the series was also hurt. (Harper)


Crazy how much you can see once you peel the layers back.


It means nothing to average 35 on 34 shots while losing a playoff series - Iverson averaged 37 on bad efficiency against the 00' Lakers and rightfully got zero props for it... The only reason that Lebron got props for it is fraud - the media propping up something that normally gets zero respect... Bad efficiency and zero defense normally gets zero respect, but Lebron gets props to support a fake debate.. it's called "WestBricking except when Lebron does it in the 15' Finals, 08' ECSF or 07' Finals - these are all series that he lost by shooting under 40% as 1st option.

[1987_Lakers]

MJ would have been swept in LeBron's situation

[sdot_thadon]

It means nothing to average 35 on 34 shots while losing a playoff series - Iverson averaged 37 on bad efficiency against the 00' Lakers and rightfully got zero props for it... The only reason that Lebron got props for it is fraud - the media propping up something that normally gets zero respect... Bad efficiency and zero defense normally gets zero respect, but Lebron gets props to support a fake debate.. it's called "WestBricking except when Lebron does it in the 15' Finals, 08' ECSF or 07' Finals - these are all series that he lost by shooting under 40% as 1st option.

Boy you cant round for shit can you? 36ppg on 33 shots. I can only imagine your disappointment watching Mj average 23 on 20 shots vs GP those last 3 games then. He literally laid a 5/19 egg in the clincher. Dennis Rodman had a higher gamescore than Mj in the game that won the chip in 96. Imagine being able to still win a chip despite showing up with those numbers. He was Kobe-esque before Kobe! Damn I see what you're saying OP, all these guys are frauds. You just worship the one they taught you to worship.

[tpols]

His Game 4 fumble was crazy. Chance to go up 3-1 at home and completely shit his jocks. 7-22 from the field and a starting line up worst in +/-.

Cleveland could've legit stole that series despite the injuries. If Lebron shoots 50% from the field they probably win. Jordan would've stole that series as Golden State was playing with rookie confidence (it was their 1st finals).

[Hey Yo]

People still think 9yrs later that Curry should have been FMVP when he didn't even receive a single vote. Same scenario with AD in 2020.

[sdot_thadon]

His Game 4 fumble was crazy. Chance to go up 3-1 at home and completely shit his jocks. 7-22 from the field and a starting line up worst in +/-.

Cleveland could've legit stole that series despite the injuries. If Lebron shoots 50% from the field they probably win. Jordan would've stole that series as Golden State was playing with rookie confidence (it was their 1st finals).

Im sure he wishes he coulda had a better game 4 but he was basically out there alone against aone of the best defenses in the league that year. Mj wouldn't have even made the finals without Horace, we saw that. He needed his 3rd guy to advance. Without Scottie after the 1st game of the Finals? Yeah ok.

[tpols]

Im sure he wishes he coulda had a better game 4 but he was basically out there alone against aone of the best defenses in the league that year. Mj wouldn't have even made the finals without Horace, we saw that. He needed his 3rd guy to advance. Without Scottie after the 1st game of the Finals? Yeah ok.


Mozgov was the leading scorer of that game bro. On both sides. Curry and Lebron. He was arguably player of the game.

[3ba11]

Im sure he wishes he coulda had a better game 4 but he was basically out there alone against aone of the best defenses in the league that year. Mj wouldn't have even made the finals without Horace, we saw that. He needed his 3rd guy to advance. Without Scottie after the 1st game of the Finals? Yeah ok.


Kyrie played 12 of 14 games in the 15' Eastern Playoffs, so the only time Lebron took a 1-star team to the Finals was when everyone was doing it (Dwight, Kidd, Iverson).

Everyone would've continued making the Finals with 1-star teams except Lebron put the top 3 stars in the conference on 1 team, and then he did it again in 2015.. He started diluting the conference in this way to ensure Finals runs, since he couldn't win the East in 09' & 10' with homecourt.

So Lebron has never carried weak casts, especially since he needed the East all-star center and pippen-like acquisition to make the playoffs in 06' and win 50 games

[Walk on Water]

MJ would have been swept in LeBron's situation


Except in 2017 LeBron did get swept while having Kyrie Irving and Kevin Love

[Walk on Water]

Exactly 3Ball11 this is when I started disliking Lebron fans. LeBron shot 39 percent and Warriors came back to win the last 3 games easily. But because Irving and Love were hurt, LeBron got brownie points. This is exactly why people don’t like him and his fans, they expect us to call him goat based off of pitty.

[Walk on Water]

Oh you mean that one time in nba history a guy lost both his 2nd and 3rd option by the finals? Only to face the best team in the league that year by almost every metric. Guarded by a guy one year removed from all defensive 1st team and got dpoy votes every year of his career except 2 to that point. Backed up by 2 all nba defenders as well. Yeah. Ok.

This is what happened the only time Mj was guarded by an elite defender in the finals....oh but his 5th option who made a pretty decent impact on the series was also hurt. (Harper)


Crazy how much you can see once you peel the layers back.


You’re also forgetting that Irving played in game 1. All you LeBron fans want us to agree with you off of pitty. Like little girls.

[sdot_thadon]

Mozgov was the leading scorer of that game bro. On both sides. Curry and Lebron. He was arguably player of the game.

That was after games of 44, 39, and 40 from LeBron with no 2nd or 3rd option after game 1. Quick question: how exactly do you think Mozgov got those points? Maybe you dont remember. Thats one of the best things about Lebron is how he can affect a game in more ways than just scoring......

[sdot_thadon]

Mozgov was the leading scorer of that game bro. On both sides. Curry and Lebron. He was arguably player of the game.

That was after games of 44, 39, and 40 from LeBron with no 2nd or 3rd option after game 1. Quick question: how exactly do you think Mozgov got those points? Maybe you dont remember. Thats one of the best things about Lebron is how he can affect a game in more ways than just scoring......

[3ba11]

.
Thread Cliffs


Lebron allowed a bench player to double his scoring average and win FMVP, yet this worst-ever defense and efficiency, aka "iversoning" was praised as a good performance.

It's a clear double standard and one of the many reasons his quality or caliber of play has been overrated in many years.

His weak efficiency came on single coverage and the most secluded isolations ever - 39% against single coverage, lol

[sdot_thadon]

Kyrie played 12 of 14 games in the 15' Eastern Playoffs, so the only time Lebron took a 1-star team to the Finals was when everyone was doing it (Dwight, Kidd, Iverson).

Everyone would've continued making the Finals with 1-star teams except Lebron put the top 3 stars in the conference on 1 team, and then he did it again in 2015.. He started diluting the conference in this way to ensure Finals runs, since he couldn't win the East in 09' & 10' with homecourt.

So Lebron has never carried weak casts, especially since he needed the East all-star center and pippen-like acquisition to make the playoffs in 06' and win 50 games

But.....wtf does that have to do with my post you quoted? I said it was the only time in history a guy played a finals without his 2nd and 3rd option. Who does that?

[Walk on Water]

But.....wtf does that have to do with my post you quoted? I said it was the only time in history a guy played a finals without his 2nd and 3rd option. Who does that?

He played with Irving in game 1

[Walk on Water]

3Ball11 if Westbrook or Iverson shot 39 pct and won 2 games they wouldn’t have gotten the praise Bron got. Definitely not MVP considerations. Westbrook averaged a triple double for 4 years but LeBron was praised for being a potential triple double guy.

[3ba11]

3Ball11 if Westbrook or Iverson shot 39 pct and won 2 games they wouldn’t have gotten the praise Bron got. Definitely not MVP considerations. Westbrook averaged a triple double for 4 years but LeBron was praised for being a potential triple double guy.


precisely

Lebron got fmvp consideration for iversoning on offense and bad defense... its absurd and a good example of the fraud

[Hey Yo]

He played with Irving in game 1

Cavs won games 2 and 3 with a starting back court of Delly and Shumpert

[3ba11]

Cavs won games 2 and 3 with a starting back court of Delly and Shumpert


that's been done before many times by many players..

losing 4-2 by shooting 39% on high volume and bad defense isn't worthy of FMVP... its a clear overrating

[StrongLurk]

Lebron's 2015 finals performance is slightly overrated due to the terrible efficiency, but Lebron's entire 2015 year was a down year because of his back issues. 2015 is easily his worst year out of 2012-2018.

It's no surprise that he was FAR better 2016-2018 because he was generally healthy.

I actually think that if you replace 2015 Lebron with 16-18 Lebron, then the Cavs beat the Warriors in 2015.

[Full Court]

Shooting 39% to lose a series in 6 games is ORDINARY, PEDESTRIAN and deserves zero props - Iverson never got props for it...

Also the lowest-skill iso's we've ever seen:


https://i.makeagif.com/media/6-05-2015/CU5j5S.gif


^^^ this isn't the 2nd best player ever OR ANYWHERE NEAR - his skill is laughable

He's fringe top ten based on accomplishments, but fully agree that he's nowhere even close to #2.

[sdot_thadon]

He played with Irving in game 1

Thats good and all if the series was one game long. When has Mj or Kobe played a finals series missing their 2nd AND 3rd options? You fellas can dance around the question in dresses all day but ill keep reminding you.

[Full Court]

Thats good and all if the series was one game long. When has Mj or Kobe played a finals series missing their 2nd AND 3rd options? You fellas can dance around the question in dresses all day but ill keep reminding you.

Jimmy Butler did in 2020. So I guess that Lebron beating them didn't mean much, did it?

[sdot_thadon]

Jimmy Butler did in 2020. So I guess that Lebron beating them didn't mean much, did it?

I forgpt about that, but yeah guess that makes 2. Jimmy Butler did the best he could without them just like Lebron did. What is your point? Never seen Mj or Kobe do it. That's what is being discussed. And bruh yall weirdos been trying to do anything yall can to discredit Lebron's chips, nobody really gives a shit what yall think when you come to the table already mind ****ed

[Walk on Water]

Cavs won games 2 and 3 with a starting back court of Delly and Shumpert


Did they win games 4, 5 and 6? Yes or no?

[1987_Lakers]

Did they win games 4, 5 and 6? Yes or no?

No, thanks to Iggy.

LeBron still got more FMVP votes than Curry in that series btw.

[Walk on Water]

Thats good and all if the series was one game long. When has Mj or Kobe played a finals series missing their 2nd AND 3rd options? You fellas can dance around the question in dresses all day but ill keep reminding you.


How is it dancing around a question when it’s your own personal question framed in a biased and disingenuous way? You also have the assumption that LeBron is automatically supposed to have an Irving and a Love as a 2nd option when most players don’t even have that much help in the first place? LeBron didn’t win the series. There’s no question you’re asking that’s genuine.

[Walk on Water]

No, thanks to Iggy.

LeBron still got more FMVP votes than Curry in that series btw.

But not more than Iguodala..

[Walk on Water]

3ba11 isn’t it funny how people say LeBron lost his 2nd and 3rd option implying that every team is supposed to have Kevin Love as a 3rd option? Keep in mind the Warriors were trying to trade half their team that year for Kevin Love.

Yes that put LeBron at a disadvantage but it’s so funny how people take for granted that he’s always supposed to have a 3rd option as good as someone like Kevin Love in the first place. Did they ever think about that?

LeBron needs Kevin Love as his 3rd option..

[Hey Yo]

that's been done before many times by many players..

losing 4-2 by shooting 39% on high volume and bad defense isn't worthy of FMVP... its a clear overrating

MVP Curry and All-NBA Klay vs. Delly who only started 13 reg season games and Shumpert who started 1 after being traded.

Cavs went up 2-1 with those 2 waterboys starting.

[sdot_thadon]

How is it dancing around a question when it’s your own personal question framed in a biased and disingenuous way? You also have the assumption that LeBron is automatically supposed to have an Irving and a Love as a 2nd option when most players don’t even have that much help in the first place? LeBron didn’t win the series. There’s no question you’re asking that’s genuine.
Lets get this out of the way: I know you've got your shtick "LeBron is duh worstest" by any means right? But cmon man at least try to be believable. Nowhere did I say he had to have Irving and Love as teammates. What I said was he played a finals without his 2nd and 3rd options. Regardless of who they are his starting caliber 2nd and 3rd options were missing and replaced with lesser players. Period.

Ask yourself would Kobe have won the finals if Gasol and Odom/Meta were missing in the finals? Would Mj have a single chip if once he hit the finals Pippen and Grant/Rodman both miss the series? We all know that answer, its the reason you bots keep tip toeing around it.

[Tavr]

LeBron's second and third options were injured, we all recognize that. He still shot the air out the ball though :lol And more importantly on horrid efficiency. Had that been someone like Kobe or Iverson, the first thing their haters would say is they shot their team out of a title. But with LeBron? A decent portion of voters wanted to award him FMVP lol

And this is why I don't take media awards too seriously. Everything is a narrative driven, popularity contest.

[Kblaze8855]

No, thanks to Iggy.

LeBron still got more FMVP votes than Curry in that series btw.


https://i.ibb.co/0pPCZg3p/IMG-2560.gif

[sdot_thadon]

LeBron's second and third options were injured, we all recognize that. He still shot the air out the ball though :lol And more importantly on horrid efficiency. Had that been someone like Kobe or Iverson, the first thing their haters would say is they shot their team out of a title. But with LeBron? A decent portion of voters wanted to award him FMVP lol

And this is why I don't take media awards too seriously. Everything is a narrative driven, popularity contest.

But when those 2 guys did it they had their complete team, correct? Its a different dynamic when you play with a group the entire season and then in the series that matters most have to play with a lineup that didn't get as much burn during the season, and likely for good reason. Have we seen any teams completely change what got them to the title round, and still win? 2nd and 3rd option combined can make up just as much of the offensive identity of a team as the 1st option sometimes.

[Tavr]

But when those 2 guys did it they had their complete team, correct? Its a different dynamic when you play with a group the entire season and then in the series that matters most have to play with a lineup that didn't get as much burn during the season, and likely for good reason. Have we seen any teams completely change what got them to the title round, and still win? 2nd and 3rd option combined can make up just as much of the offensive identity of a team as the 1st option sometimes.

Again I completely understand that and its fair... But who was Iverson's second option in Philly? Aaron Mckie? Eric Snow? Lol. When Kobe shoot poorly against Boston, he was missing 2 starters who got injured earlier in the season (Ariza and Bynum). :confusedshrug: Iverson nor Kobe were ever excused for shotjacking and poor efficiency. Not by the media and certainly not from their haters.

[sdot_thadon]

Again I completely understand that and its fair... But who was Iverson's second option in Philly? Aaron Mckie? Eric Snow? Lol. When Kobe shoot poorly against Boston, he was missing 2 starters who got injured earlier in the season (Ariza and Bynum). :confusedshrug: Iverson nor Kobe were ever excused for shotjacking and poor efficiency. Not by the media and certainly not from their haters.

We know Iverson didn't have much offensive help but he had his stable lineup thet made it to the championship round. Kobe lost Bynum like 20 games into tbe season where he was taking tbe 4th most shots and was replaced by Gasol. Ariza was not a starter. All his playoff games that run werre off the bench. Neither of those is starting the playoffs healthy and losing both 2nd and 3rd option by the title round. Apples to bananas.

[Walk on Water]

Lets get this out of the way: I know you've got your shtick "LeBron is duh worstest" by any means right? But cmon man at least try to be believable. Nowhere did I say he had to have Irving and Love as teammates. What I said was he played a finals without his 2nd and 3rd options. Regardless of who they are his starting caliber 2nd and 3rd options were missing and replaced with lesser players. Period.

Ask yourself would Kobe have won the finals if Gasol and Odom/Meta were missing in the finals? Would Mj have a single chip if once he hit the finals Pippen and Grant/Rodman both miss the series? We all know that answer, its the reason you bots keep tip toeing around it.



Like 50 Cent says, Okay you're right.

I agree. Now that you've showed me the light, Lebron is better than Jordan. I mean seriously, he didn't have his 2nd or 3rd option, so therefore he is better. Since Jordan needed Pippen and Pippen is far better than Love or Irving, that means Jordan isn't as good. So I'm not tip toeing around it. I concede. Jordan never won a single chip without Pip. No chip no Pip. Therefore, I agree. Lebron is the Goat.

[ralph_i_el]

The idea for the Cavs was to lower the pace of the game. The Warriors shot a lot of threes, but their high pace canceled out some of the variance. High possession game = less randomness = benefiting the better team. A low possession game has more randomness, benefiting the weaker team. It was a good strategy against those Warriors.

[Tavr]

We know Iverson didn't have much offensive help but he had his stable lineup thet made it to the championship round. Kobe lost Bynum like 20 games into tbe season where he was taking tbe 4th most shots and was replaced by Gasol. Ariza was not a starter. All his playoff games that run werre off the bench. Neither of those is starting the playoffs healthy and losing both 2nd and 3rd option by the title round. Apples to bananas.

Right, but Iverson carried his team to the finals just like LeBron did back in 2007. I mean, there's a BIG difference between making the championship round and actually winning it. :lol You also claimed Iverson's team was stable. Well, Kobe's was far from. Ariza definitely started a few games with LA, but even off the bench, he was arguably their best perimeter defender. Bynum was also playing very well up until he got hurt. So another key contributor and solid defensive piece. These two were absolutely needed vs a powerhouse like Boston.

Nobody is saying Ariza and Bynum = Love and Kyrie. Looking at how they were constructed, though, losing these players impacted both teams mightily.

[sdot_thadon]

Like 50 Cent says, Okay you're right.

I agree. Now that you've showed me the light, Lebron is better than Jordan. I mean seriously, he didn't have his 2nd or 3rd option, so therefore he is better. Since Jordan needed Pippen and Pippen is far better than Love or Irving, that means Jordan isn't as good. So I'm not tip toeing around it. I concede. Jordan never won a single chip without Pip. No chip no Pip. Therefore, I agree. Lebron is the Goat.

That's not it at all, you guys get so caught up in the result you lose the argument. Im not arguing Lebron is better than Mj, never have. I argue what i see to be double standards. So much stuff haters demonize Lebron for has already happened with guys hes compared to. Sometimes even with your goat. We just only decoded to care when it was Lebron. At this point I'd take either as goat, or Kareem if we're talking entire basketball life.

[sdot_thadon]

Right, but Iverson carried his team to the finals just like LeBron did back in 2007. I mean, there's a BIG difference between making the championship round and actually winning it. :lol You also claimed Iverson's team was stable. Well, Kobe's was far from. Ariza definitely started a few games with LA, but even off the bench, he was arguably their best perimeter defender. Bynum was also playing very well up until he got hurt. So another key contributor and solid defensive piece. These two were absolutely needed vs a powerhouse like Boston.

Nobody is saying Ariza and Bynum = Love and Kyrie. Looking at how they were constructed, though, losing these players impacted both teams mightily.

Bynum only played 35 games, he was gone in January, before the allstar break. They played most of the season without him. Ariza started 3 games that season. They actually got him back for the finals rather than losing him even though he was much lower in the rotation than 2nd and 3rd option. Im just trying to paint the picture of how different these scenarios are. That would have been the equivalent of Lebron losing the 4th option and a bench player in the 2015 run instead of irving and love. Im sure hed take that trade off every time. And losing them early in the season forces the team to find a way to work without them with the remainder of the schedule. Losing players mid series doesn't allow much time for that. This biggest deal about losing Irving and Love was the warriors defense realized after a few games they didn't have to respect anybody else. I mean iggy got fmvp for supposedly "holding" LeBron to 36-13-9 for crying out loud lol.

[Wally450]

Funny how Iggy got FMVP for "holding" Lebron to 38/13/9.

[Tavr]

Bynum only played 35 games, he was gone in January, before the allstar break. They played most of the season without him. Ariza started 3 games that season. They actually got him back for the finals rather than losing him even though he was much lower in the rotation than 2nd and 3rd option. Im just trying to paint the picture of how different these scenarios are. That would have been the equivalent of Lebron losing the 4th option and a bench player in the 2015 run instead of irving and love. Im sure hed take that trade off every time. And losing them early in the season forces the team to find a way to work without them with the remainder of the schedule. Losing players mid series doesn't allow much time for that. This biggest deal about losing Irving and Love was the warriors defense realized after a few games they didn't have to respect anybody else. I mean iggy got fmvp for supposedly "holding" LeBron to 36-13-9 for crying out loud lol.

That is the point. Before his injury, Bynum was having what many considered a breakout year, averaging 14/10 with good defense. Why pretend LA didn’t need an able body like AB to help Pau Gasol, who was utterly abused by Boston's front line. Remember, the Lakers in 2010 were lauded for their awesome frontcourt in large part because of Bynum. LA was also 25-11 before the Pau trade, which had a number of Laker fans claiming he was Kobe’s #2. Looking at that roster, he definitely had a case.

Far as Ariza is concerned, he averaged near 20mpg before that injury. In the finals? Ariza dropped all the way down to 7 lol. He was rushed back and very clearly playing hurt. I get it, if you’re out there no excuses. I'll concede that point even if we both know dude was hindered.

I'm not claiming that losing them was the same as LeBron losing Love and Kyrie. There are levels to this. What I am saying though is both teams were clearly outmatched. If anything, Iverson gets the most unfair criticism here. I don’t condone low iq chucking or whatever, but through the lens of that 2015 finals? Unlike LeBron, he doesn’t get praise for having to literally shoot.

[Walk on Water]

Funny how Iggy got FMVP for "holding" Lebron to 38/13/9.



It's not funny. Because Lebron could averaged 50 if he wanted to. He was just going easy.

[Walk on Water]

That's not it at all, you guys get so caught up in the result you lose the argument. Im not arguing Lebron is better than Mj, never have. I argue what i see to be double standards. So much stuff haters demonize Lebron for has already happened with guys hes compared to. Sometimes even with your goat. We just only decoded to care when it was Lebron. At this point I'd take either as goat, or Kareem if we're talking entire basketball life.


Lebron really is the GOAT. He attracted more All Stars than Jordan because he's a smarter GM, therefore that counts as putting your team in more possible situations to win. He didn't go play baseball or gamble. How could you not have Lebron over Jordan? They are not equal. And Kareem is not on Lebron's level because Lebron passed him in points and more Finals MVPS. Lebron also averages more rebounds than Kareem in the finals. Kareem averages under 10 rebounds a game, Lebron averages 10. And Lebron more assists than Kareem. More versatile defender, can guard 1-5.