Hollinger and PER was the dumbest and worst thing to happen to fandom

[tontoz]

FOH, no he was not "feeding" him. I'm not talking about setting up open jumpers.

I'm talking about closing minutes, game on the line... and the team is playing THROUGH Murray. Yolk watches.



You mean like Game 1 against OKC when Jokic scored 18 pts in the 4th and they won by 2? :oldlol:

Murray had 4 pts. :bowdown:


I think Baller might be highwhey.

[3ba11]

One thing that people don't understand is that PER, BPM, WS, etc are all based on a player's individual offensive rating (ORTG), which can only be compared between players of similar usage/role... aka the PER, BPM, etc of someone with 20% usage can't be compared to someone with 30% usage, etc

[sdot_thadon]

You mean like this visual??? :oldlol:

https://d1l5jyrrh5eluf.cloudfront.net/wp-content/uploads/2015/12/kobe-bryant.jpg

Is five rangz enough "substance" for you!?!?

:oldlol:

Yeah in the "lets pose next to someone else's luxury car for the gram" type of way.

[sdot_thadon]

One thing that people don't understand is that PER, BPM, WS, etc are all based on a player's individual offensive rating (ORTG), which can only be compared between players of similar usage/role... aka the PER, BPM, etc of someone with 20% usage can't be compared to someone with 30% usage, etc

Also what .ost people dont know is its creator tinkered with the formula until Mj had the highest PER. Imagine if that was any other name.:oldlol:

[SouBeachTalents]

One thing that people don't understand is that PER, BPM, WS, etc are all based on a player's individual offensive rating (ORTG), which can only be compared between players of similar usage/role... aka the PER, BPM, etc of someone with 20% usage can't be compared to someone with 30% usage, etc
Exactly, LeBron blows everybody besides Jordan away in those categories, so he's clearly top 2 all time.

[tpols]

Teams have got better at offense because they play more intelligently now. Hence why they score better. Same reason Jokic scores better than Kobe, he plays more intelligently.

It would be truly funny to see an old school team try to keep up with the modern NBA, they'd be terrible with the lack of 3s they took. You don't get this though.

I'm one of the biggest Yolk fans of all time, but his game would undeniably suffer in the early ugly 2000s. We saw a microcosm of that in the Disney bubble when he faced Dwight. Now imagine a whole league of Dwights and a pace where games generally end in the 80s or 90s... would be much tougher on the numbers.

[tontoz]

I'm one of the biggest Yolk fans of all time, but his game would undeniably suffer in the early ugly 2000s. We saw a microcosm of that in the Disney bubble when he faced Dwight. Now imagine a whole league of Dwights and a pace where games generally end in the 80s or 90s... would be much tougher on the numbers.

First of all Jokic averaged 22 with a 62% TS in that series so he wasn't exactly struggling. Secondly....."a whole league of Dwights"?

:lol

Jokic is huge and slow. I think he would be fine in a slower, more physical league.

[Baller234]

Yeah in the "lets pose next to someone else's luxury car for the gram" type of way.

Someone ELSE's rangz?

If those aren't Kobe's rangz... who do they belong to?

Are you saying he stole them? How does one steal FIVE rangz??

[SouBeachTalents]

Someone ELSE's rangz?

If those aren't Kobe's rangz... who do they belong to?

Are you saying he stole them? How does one steal FIVE rangz??
Shaq, at least the first 3.

[Axe]

Joker's size can make him dominant. There's a good chance he can shoot better around the paint with more consistency if needed. The question there is who he'll be going against with, if many bigger guys are forced to play again traditionally.


ugly
https://i.ibb.co/XZ5qVsYf/Screenshot-20250703-235925.jpg (https://i.ibb.co/g4tnXnv/IMG-20230626-052542.jpg)

[Baller234]

Shaq, at least the first 3.

And how do we explain back to back rangz on three consecutive finals appearances without him?

[SouBeachTalents]

And how do we explain back to back rangz on three consecutive finals appearances without him?
Because Kobe was a great player who also had the best or 2nd best supporting cast in the league at the time. But those first 3 rings Shaq was not only the best player in the league, he was one of the most dominant players in league history. Kobe's just not gonna get the credit for those 3 rings that you think he should.

[Baller234]

Because Kobe was a great player who also had the best or 2nd best supporting cast in the league at the time. But those first 3 rings Shaq was not only the best player in the league, he was one of the most dominant players in league history. Kobe's just not gonna get the credit for those first 3 rings that you think he should.

No other player gets held to this standard. Magic had an amazing supporting cast. Bird had an amazing supporting cast. Bron had amazing supporting casts.

And who tf did Kobe have!?? It was Kobe and Gasol, that's it. Who tf did they have after that?? ANDREW BYNUM!?!? LAMAR ODOM!?!? DEREK FISHER!?!? Where is this onslaught of talent that was so overwhelming to the rest of the NBA!?!?

So when Kobe wins with a good supporting cast the credit goes to the supporting cast. When he wins with another star player it goes to the other star player. Apparently he had zero to do with anything :oldlol: :oldlol:

Magic only has rangz cause he played with Alcindor. Alcindor only has rangz cause he played with Magic. Both of them only have rangz cause they played with Worthy. How far do you really wanna take this thing!?!?

You guys keep harping on how you NEED to pay attention to stats and how it determines EVERYTHING because your eyes can deceive you, but here you are choosing to ignore your own eyes. Whatever stat you wanna harp on that in your mind proves Kobe wasn't as great as you think he is, it obviously didn't matter because he routinely won in spite of it. :oldlol:

I mean yea you would have a case if the Lakers were this super stacked team, but they really weren't. So it's a moot point. Not unless you wanna hold every other player to the same standard.

[tpols]

Joker's size can make him dominant. There's a good chance he can shoot better around the paint with more consistency if needed. The question there is who he'll be going against with, if many bigger guys are forced to play again traditionally.


https://i.ibb.co/XZ5qVsYf/Screenshot-20250703-235925.jpg (https://i.ibb.co/g4tnXnv/IMG-20230626-052542.jpg)

Hey!

Us gingers aren't ugly.

We are beautiful.

[sdot_thadon]

After 30 years it still upsets me playing pick up with such people. I honestly don't how this can be seen as good basketball. Sure a guy like Kobe scores better on half bad shots at a high volume than some role player, but for most of his career he had some decent teammates who could finish themselves, but Kobestans act like he had to hpost up ill advised shots, because Pau, Odom or even Shaq were not good enough to pass the ball to in tight situations.

That's considered "high iq" to some. Ive never been able to understand it. His fans forget one of MJ's best abilities was to create space so he wasnt constantly taking tough shots. While of course he could make tough shots, his moves created separation for clean make able looks more times than not. The "bag" guys have every move in the book but somehow use them to still create highly contested looks. I was a og Kobe fan, still am but I just dont think hes better than the guys his stans think hes better than. Just doesn't hold up under burden of proof. My explanation his game is hes a caricature of 2nd 3peat Mj, a deformed exaggeration of the traits we thought made Mj great. Cool to watch no doubt but still a bootleg version of what he copied.

[SouBeachTalents]

No other player gets held to this standard. Magic had an amazing supporting cast. Bird had an amazing supporting cast. Bron had amazing supporting casts.

And who tf did Kobe have!?? It was Kobe and Gasol, that's it. Who tf did they have after that?? ANDREW BYNUM!?!? LAMAR ODOM!?!? DEREK FISHER!?!? Where is this onslaught of talent that was so overwhelming to the rest of the NBA!?!?

So when Kobe wins with a good supporting cast the credit goes to the supporting cast. When he wins with another star player it goes to the other star player. Apparently he had zero to do with anything :oldlol: :oldlol:

Magic only has rangz cause he played with Alcindor. Alcindor only has rangz cause he played with Magic. Both of them only have rangz cause they played with Worthy. How far do you really wanna take this thing!?!?

You guys keep harping on how you NEED to pay attention to stats and how it determines EVERYTHING because your eyes can deceive you, but here you are choosing to ignore your own eyes. Whatever stat you wanna harp on that in your mind proves Kobe wasn't as great as you think he is, it obviously didn't matter because he routinely won in spite of it. :oldlol:

I mean yea you would have a case if the Lakers were this super stacked team, but they really weren't. So it's a moot point. Not unless you wanna hold every other player to the same standard.
You're far too emotionally invested in this bro, responding with a litany of strawman arguments :lol

I'm not up for parsing through all that, all I'll say is while historically it was a weaker championship supporting cast, at the time, only Boston arguably had a better roster than the Lakers did. And compared to the other superstars in the league at the time, his was FAR, far better.

[Baller234]

You're far too emotionally invested in this bro, responding with a litany of strawman arguments :lol

I'm not up for parsing through all that, all I'll say is while historically it was a weaker championship supporting cast, at the time, only Boston arguably had a better roster than the Lakers did. And compared to the other superstars in the league at the time, his was FAR, far better.

Bold the sentence in my post you thought was emotional and not rooted in fact.

[sdot_thadon]

Someone ELSE's rangz?

If those aren't Kobe's rangz... who do they belong to?

Are you saying he stole them? How does one steal FIVE rangz??

You know what I mean. A few of those he definitely wasnt driving the bus. We know what he did. But some of those rings are for Shaq to pose like that in front of. And if you want to tell me it wasnt like that, then why so adamantly need to separate from Shaq? Narratives are cool but the truth is better.

[Baller234]

You know what I mean. A few of those he definitely wasnt driving the bus. We know what he did. But some of those rings are for Shaq to pose like that in front of. And if you want to tell me it wasnt like that, then why so adamantly need to separate from Shaq? Narratives are cool but the truth is better.

He was driving the bus for 2 of them and was a key ingredient in 3 of them. Him winning 2 after Shaq should have solidified that.

You don't just stumble your way to five rangz. MAYBE you can stumble to one when the stars really align like the Raptors. Not FIVE.

[Tavr]

Baller is actually correct. The double standards against Kobe are pretty insane. Magic always played with help and ditto with Kareem (obviously they also played with one another). Shaq's played with a heap of talent as well... Penny, Kobe, Wade, Nash/Amare, LeBron etc.

But nobody really talks about it and definitely do not tax them. Kobe gets penalized for playing with Shaq. Then downplayed again for playing with Pau and Bynum lol.

[1987_Lakers]

Baller is actually correct. The double standards against Kobe are pretty insane. Magic always played with help and ditto with Kareem (obviously they also played with one another). Shaq's played with a heap of talent as well... Penny, Kobe, Wade, Nash/Amare, LeBron etc.

But nobody really talks about it and definitely do not tax them. Kobe gets penalized for playing with Shaq. Then downplayed again for playing with Pau and Bynum lol.

You forgot Curry's help.

[RRR3]

Baller is actually correct. The double standards against Kobe are pretty insane. Magic always played with help and ditto with Kareem (obviously they also played with one another). Shaq's played with a heap of talent as well... Penny, Kobe, Wade, Nash/Amare, LeBron etc.

But nobody really talks about it and definitely do not tax them. Kobe gets penalized for playing with Shaq. Then downplayed again for playing with Pau and Bynum lol.
No one uses Magic’s rings to argue how good he was though they can actually make the case without it. And no one tries to say Magic is some GOAT candidate either.

[j3lademaster]

80's players just get passes like crazy though. I rarely see people hold 'weak west' against Magic the way they do with Lebron and the east, and no one holds Bird's individual playoff failures against him like they do with Lebron. If Lebron won a ring averaging 15ppg on 42/33/81 we'd never hear the end of it. Actually, I take it back that's not fair, because Kobe gets a lot of those passes(and I say this as a huge fan of Kobe (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?522380-Dennis-Rodman-Kobe-should-be-in-the-GOAT-discussion-not-LeBron) that tried to model my game after him growing up). Lebron is just held to unreal standards.

[RRR3]

80's players just get passes like crazy though. I rarely see people hold 'weak west' against Magic the way they do with Lebron and the east, and no one holds Bird's individual playoff failures against him like they do with Lebron. If Lebron won a ring averaging 15ppg on 42/33/81 we'd never hear the end of it. Actually, I take it back that's not fair, because Kobe gets a lot of those passes(and I say this as a huge fan of Kobe (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?522380-Dennis-Rodman-Kobe-should-be-in-the-GOAT-discussion-not-LeBron) that tried to model my game after him growing up). Lebron is just held to unreal standards.
Kobe won a ring averaging 15.6 PPG on 41.1 TS% in the finals and people act like it was a first option ring.

[j3lademaster]

Kobe won a ring averaging 15.6 PPG on 41.1 TS% in the finals and people act like it was a first option ring.
Just like how Bird won the championship in 81 averaging 15 on 42% shooting, rightfully lost his fmvp to his teammate and yet we still give him full credit for all 3 rings. Had Lebron won in 2011 playing the same way with Wade winning fmvp we'd never hear the end of it about how that ring isn't legitimate. Hell, we don't even hear the end of it for the 2020 ring where Lebron most likely got shafted more than anything else. Curry gets that same shit flung at him with his 2015 championship, even though he was the most deserving of fmvp imo; so it might just be the social media age stars getting put under an unfair microscope compared to mythologized historical players. It's not even exclusive to basketball, look at Mahommes.

[RRR3]

Just like how Bird won the championship in 81 averaging 15 on 42% shooting, rightfully lost his fmvp to his teammate and yet we still give him full credit for all 3 rings. Had Lebron won in 2011 playing the same way with Wade winning fmvp we'd never hear the end of it about how that ring isn't legitimate. Hell, we don't even hear the end of it for the 2020 ring where Lebron most likely got shafted more than anything else. Curry gets that same shit flung at him with his 2015 championship, even though he was the most deserving of fmvp imo; so it might just be the social media age stars getting put under an unfair microscope compared to mythologized historical players. It's not even exclusive to basketball, look at Mahommes.
I don’t and have never followed NFL so idk what you’re referring to with Mahomes.

[Tavr]

Great points, blade. Totally agree about the 80s/90s mythology. And I say that while having MJ, Magic and Kareem in my top 5.


No one uses Magic’s rings to argue how good he was though they can actually make the case without it. And no one tries to say Magic is some GOAT candidate either.

Sure, but people also use Kobe's scoring skill and 2-way play to argue his greatness. We see that all the time :confusedshrug:

[sdot_thadon]

He was driving the bus for 2 of them and was a key ingredient in 3 of them. Him winning 2 after Shaq should have solidified that.

You don't just stumble your way to five rangz. MAYBE you can stumble to one when the stars really align like the Raptors. Not FIVE.

But where did I say he somehow stumbled to them. I just said in a post around the one you quoted im a Kobe fan. I rooted for the Lakers for those rings. I remember a meme going around about how Austin Croshere outplayed Kobe in 2000. It never gained the traction of the Jason Terry go-to for Lebron haters but he won putting up like 15 a game as some mentioned. Was he injured? Hell yeah. But again it circles back around to my point of different standards for Lebron. Nobody penalized Kobe for winning with Shaq. It only comes up when his rings are waved around like he won them all as the man, when he clearly didn't. He won 2 as the man, one, maybe 2 as the 1B depending on how charitable you're being. And these same guys who dont want to recognize the huge advantage of having Shaq as your 1 or 1A cry constantly about LeBrons PER leader teammates lol.

[sdot_thadon]

80's players just get passes like crazy though. I rarely see people hold 'weak west' against Magic the way they do with Lebron and the east, and no one holds Bird's individual playoff failures against him like they do with Lebron. If Lebron won a ring averaging 15ppg on 42/33/81 we'd never hear the end of it. Actually, I take it back that's not fair, because Kobe gets a lot of those passes(and I say this as a huge fan of Kobe (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?522380-Dennis-Rodman-Kobe-should-be-in-the-GOAT-discussion-not-LeBron) that tried to model my game after him growing up). Lebron is just held to unreal standards.

Exactly. I'll add that i dont feel its so much those players get a pass. Its more of we've never judged a player the way we have Lebron and the guys since. We're at a point where no player in the future has a shot at being as fondly remembered as those past players we've immortalized.

[warriorfan]

Kobe won a ring averaging 15.6 PPG on 41.1 TS% in the finals and people act like it was a first option ring.

He was 21 years old and Jalen Rose purposely injured him you disingenuous little shit. Healthy prime bron at 26 years old got outscored by Jason Terry in the Finals.

If you wanna play the asterisk game and take Kobe’s first one away from him….

Bron’s legacy has an insane amount of asterisks

[warriorfan]

80's players just get passes like crazy though. I rarely see people hold 'weak west' against Magic the way they do with Lebron and the east, and no one holds Bird's individual playoff failures against him like they do with Lebron. If Lebron won a ring averaging 15ppg on 42/33/81 we'd never hear the end of it. Actually, I take it back that's not fair, because Kobe gets a lot of those passes(and I say this as a huge fan of Kobe (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?522380-Dennis-Rodman-Kobe-should-be-in-the-GOAT-discussion-not-LeBron) that tried to model my game after him growing up). Lebron is just held to unreal standards.

It’s because those guys don’t get compared to Jordan.

If Bron stans chilled on trying to overrate him as the GOAT then his career would much be less meticulously examined for flaws.

[Baller234]

Sure, but people also use Kobe's scoring skill and 2-way play to argue his greatness. We see that all the time :confusedshrug:

Think about who you're talking to for a second though.

You're talking to a kid who probably couldn't play himself. Probably fumbled the ball when it was passed to him and shoots with two hands.

He doesn't understand what Kobe is doing out there on the court. He can't comprehend it. He gets his cues from Bill Simmons and studies a graph. That's why he think Yolk is a better scorer than Kobe even though anyone with a semblance of knowldege for the game knows that's a ludicrous assertion. You wanna argue he's a better player fine, I think you're crazy but fine, I could entertain that debate. Yolk is an AMAZING talent who brings A LOT to the table. But the one thing that should NOT be up for debate is who was the better pure scorer. So 3tard even TRYING to make that point disqualifies him from any type of serious basketball discussion.

He probably also grew up watching Lebron so he's emotionally protective of his place in history. Not sure if that totally plays into it, but it definitely might. Plus Lebron is the guy who wore a tee shirt that said "check my stats".

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/F2F7PSbaEAAuNMX.jpg

Back then no one cared about this efficiency bullshit. And guess what, efficiency stats don't even accurately measure efficiency. The moment the game introduced the 3pt shot, percentages went out the window and meant nothing. Back then you could say okay a guy went 7/18 and maybe try and gauge something from the percentages. But that is because all of those shots would be equal. Equal worth and equal INTENT. Equal CIRCUMSTANCES. Twos and ones. That's it. Field goals and free throws.

The three point shot was introduced as a GAMBLE. It was HIGH RISK. Players were ADVISED to avoid it when possible. Even the best of the best shooters of the era took only a few a game. It was understood that when you attempt a three, you were GAMBLING. Even TODAY it's gambling, only now they're gambling more efficiently and have a better chance of beating the house. Also, teams didn't GUARD the three as hard back then. So why TF are we even trying to mash these things together and come up with some imaginary frankenstein number??? The two and the three are TOTALLY different shots. And free throws??? Lol. These are TOTALLY separate. ZERO point in combing them.

NO single player from the 2000's and beyond has EVER drawn as much singular attention than Kobe. Not EVERYWHERE on the court. There is NOWHERE on the court where Kobe is allowed to roam free. You don't think that's gonna have an effect on the guy's efficiency!?! Why do you care!!? He WON!! His TEAMS won!!

I'll tell you why, because bitch ass Bron said CHECK MY STATS. Because Bill Simmons and the number dorks only care about their math equations that don't don't even measure a fukking thing.

[RRR3]

Think about who you're talking to for a second though.

You're talking to a kid who probably couldn't play himself. Probably fumbled the ball when it was passed to him and shoots with two hands.

He doesn't understand what Kobe is doing out there on the court. He can't comprehend it. He gets his cues from Bill Simmons and studies a graph. That's why he think Yolk is a better scorer than Kobe even though anyone with a semblance of knowldege for the game knows that's a ludicrous assertion. You wanna argue he's a better player fine, I think you're crazy but fine, I could entertain that debate. Yolk is an AMAZING talent who brings A LOT to the table. But the one thing that should NOT be up for debate is who was the better pure scorer. So 3tard even TRYING to make that point disqualifies him from any type of serious basketball discussion.

He probably also grew up watching Lebron so he's emotionally protective of his place in history. Not sure if that totally plays into it, but it definitely might. Plus Lebron is the guy who wore a tee shirt that said "check my stats".

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/F2F7PSbaEAAuNMX.jpg

Back then no one cared about this efficiency bullshit. And guess what, efficiency stats don't even accurately measure efficiency. The moment the game introduced the 3pt shot, percentages went out the window and meant nothing. Back then you could say okay a guy went 7/18 and maybe try and gauge something from the percentages. But that is because all of those shots would be equal. Equal worth and equal INTENT. Equal CIRCUMSTANCES. Twos and ones. That's it. Field goals and free throws.

The three point shot was introduced as a GAMBLE. It was HIGH RISK. Players were ADVISED to avoid it when possible. Even the best of the best shooters of the era took only a few a game. It was understood that when you attempt a three, you were GAMBLING. Even TODAY it's gambling, only now they're gambling more efficiently and have a better chance of beating the house. Also, teams didn't GUARD the three as hard back then. So why TF are we even trying to mash these things together and come up with some imaginary frankenstein number??? The two and the three are TOTALLY different shots. And free throws??? Lol. These are TOTALLY separate. ZERO point in combing them.

NO single player from the 2000's and beyond has EVER drawn as much singular attention than Kobe. Not EVERYWHERE on the court. There is NOWHERE on the court where Kobe is allowed to roam free. You don't think that's gonna have an effect on the guy's efficiency!?! Why do you care!!? He WON!! His TEAMS won!!

I'll tell you why, because bitch ass Bron said CHECK MY STATS. Because Bill Simmons and the number dorks only care about their math equations that don't don't even measure a fukking thing.
Legendary meltdown good god.



:roll:

[sdot_thadon]

It’s because those guys don’t get compared to Jordan.

If Bron stans chilled on trying to overrate him as the GOAT then his career would much be less meticulously examined for flaws.

What are you like 12? They absolutely were compared to to him, and back then it was the other way around he..was compared to them. it's just that at some point we(Jordan stans, because back then majority of NBA fans became Jordan stans) decided they no longer deserved to be compared to him. Guys not enamored by Jordan still felt it was a comparison they just happened to become the minority over time as the mainstream took hold. Thats the 1st time I ever heard Birds career diminished becuase he didn't have as much longevity as Mj or titles. Magic to a lesser degree becuase of HIV also cutting his career short. Kareem had Magic and Oscar and Wilt played against short, white guys. Russell? He couldn't even average 20 a game vs those same short white guys. It was terrible for the history of the game while being the best thing to ever happen commercially for the game. Go figure.

[RRR3]

i still can’t believe I got bawler to type all that :roll:


Dude is INCENSED

[sdot_thadon]

He probably also grew up watching Lebron so he's emotionally protective of his place in history. Not sure if that totally plays into it, but it definitely might.
This is literally the baseline modus operandi for almost every stan argument on the entirety of the net. Bron, Kobe, Mj, Wilt. Whomever. You finally see the big picture..

[RRR3]

This is literally the baseline modus operandi for almost every stan argument on the entirety of the net. Bron, Kobe, Mj, Wilt. Whomever. You finally see the big picture..
The funny thing is he just typed an essay raging at me for daring to say Jokic is a better scorer than his hero Kobe and sees zero irony.

[1987_Lakers]

Just like how Bird won the championship in 81 averaging 15 on 42% shooting, rightfully lost his fmvp to his teammate and yet we still give him full credit for all 3 rings. Had Lebron won in 2011 playing the same way with Wade winning fmvp we'd never hear the end of it about how that ring isn't legitimate. Hell, we don't even hear the end of it for the 2020 ring where Lebron most likely got shafted more than anything else. Curry gets that same shit flung at him with his 2015 championship, even though he was the most deserving of fmvp imo; so it might just be the social media age stars getting put under an unfair microscope compared to mythologized historical players. It's not even exclusive to basketball, look at Mahommes.

Truer words have never been spoken.

Bird in particular had a good amount of playoff under-performances which never get discussed. Magic's choke in the '84 Finals was historically bad, on par with 2011. Hell, prime Hakeem went 5 straight seasons where he couldn't get out of the first round. Can't imagine the hate they would get if they played in the social media age.

[tontoz]

meltdown

Or maybe it's people who watched KoMe take bad jumpers over double teams instead of passing to teammates. The Pistons created a game plan for the finals specifically to take advantage of Kobe's selfishness, leaving Ben on Shaq 1 on 1 knowing Ben couldn't handle him. They gambled that Kobe wouldn't be willing to pass to Shaq enough to make them pay for it and they were right.

I saw this time and again when watching Kobe. I remember one game in particular when the Lakers came to DC and Kobe went off for 20+ in the first half. In the second half the Wizards trapped him repeatedly and instead of passing he kept chucking so the Wizards came back to win. After the game Nick Young came out and said publicly they pressured Kobe knowing he wasn't going to pass. :lol

[Tavr]

Think about who you're talking to for a second though.

You're talking to a kid who probably couldn't play himself. Probably fumbled the ball when it was passed to him and shoots with two hands.

He doesn't understand what Kobe is doing out there on the court. He can't comprehend it. He gets his cues from Bill Simmons and studies a graph. That's why he think Yolk is a better scorer than Kobe even though anyone with a semblance of knowldege for the game knows that's a ludicrous assertion. You wanna argue he's a better player fine, I think you're crazy but fine, I could entertain that debate. Yolk is an AMAZING talent who brings A LOT to the table. But the one thing that should NOT be up for debate is who was the better pure scorer. So 3tard even TRYING to make that point disqualifies him from any type of serious basketball discussion.

He probably also grew up watching Lebron so he's emotionally protective of his place in history. Not sure if that totally plays into it, but it definitely might. Plus Lebron is the guy who wore a tee shirt that said "check my stats".

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/F2F7PSbaEAAuNMX.jpg

Back then no one cared about this efficiency bullshit. And guess what, efficiency stats don't even accurately measure efficiency. The moment the game introduced the 3pt shot, percentages went out the window and meant nothing. Back then you could say okay a guy went 7/18 and maybe try and gauge something from the percentages. But that is because all of those shots would be equal. Equal worth and equal INTENT. Equal CIRCUMSTANCES. Twos and ones. That's it. Field goals and free throws.

The three point shot was introduced as a GAMBLE. It was HIGH RISK. Players were ADVISED to avoid it when possible. Even the best of the best shooters of the era took only a few a game. It was understood that when you attempt a three, you were GAMBLING. Even TODAY it's gambling, only now they're gambling more efficiently and have a better chance of beating the house. Also, teams didn't GUARD the three as hard back then. So why TF are we even trying to mash these things together and come up with some imaginary frankenstein number??? The two and the three are TOTALLY different shots. And free throws??? Lol. These are TOTALLY separate. ZERO point in combing them.

NO single player from the 2000's and beyond has EVER drawn as much singular attention than Kobe. Not EVERYWHERE on the court. There is NOWHERE on the court where Kobe is allowed to roam free. You don't think that's gonna have an effect on the guy's efficiency!?! Why do you care!!? He WON!! His TEAMS won!!

I'll tell you why, because bitch ass Bron said CHECK MY STATS. Because Bill Simmons and the number dorks only care about their math equations that don't don't even measure a fukking thing.

DAMN lol. Some good points, but R3 isn't all that bad right? If dude is a LeBron fan then he's probably just like most of them. :confusedshrug: A little too dependent on stats. No shame in that really although for someone like me who's been watching since the late 90s, I like to dive a bit deeper. And will actively seek more nuance. I'm looking for offensive sets like a pindown, flair or even simple horns action.

Of course, you get the inverse who want to dismiss numbers altogether. I definitely don't subscribe to that lol

[RRR3]

DAMN lol. Some good points, but R3 isn't all that bad right? If dude is a LeBron fan then he's probably just like most of them. :confusedshrug: A little too dependent on stats. No shame in that really although for someone like me who's been watching since the late 90s, I like to dive a bit deeper. And will actively seek more nuance. I'm looking for offensive sets like a pindown, flair or even simple horns action.

Of course, you get the inverse who want to dismiss numbers altogether. I definitely don't subscribe to that lol
I don’t think I’ve even been talking about LeBron in this thread he’s just having a meltdown about him for some reason. The funny thing is I can’t stand Jokic so it’s not like I’m stanning him arguing for him. I just have seen enough of him to know scoring is easier for him than Kobe. A lot of Kobe’s game was relying on tough shots, he could make them but it’s not always something that you can count on in playoff games hence the inefficiency in a lot of his runs. You give Jokic the ball in the post he will generally score on the other hand. You could argue Jokic is the best offensive player ever not my fault bawler wants to overrate past players and underrate current ones.

[1987_Lakers]

Or maybe it's people who watched KoMe take bad jumpers over double teams instead of passing to teammates. The Pistons created a game plan for the finals specifically to take advantage of Kobe's selfishness, leaving Ben on Shaq 1 on 1 knowing Ben couldn't handle him. They gambled that Kobe wouldn't be willing to pass to Shaq enough to make them pay for it and they were right.

I saw this time and again when watching Kobe. I remember one game in particular when the Lakers came to DC and Kobe went off for 20+ in the first half. In the second half the Wizards trapped him repeatedly and instead of passing he kept chucking so the Wizards came back to win. After the game Nick Young came out and said publicly they pressured Kobe knowing he wasn't going to pass. :lol

Celtics did the same strategy in 2010 during game 7, which resulted in 6-24 shooting. Nuggets did a similar stategy in game 7 a couple of years later, but this time Kobe actually trusted his teammates and finished the game with 8 assists.

One of the weird things about Kobe is that when he spoke about basketball, he was obviously smart. Look at Shaq & Kobe discuss basketball, Kobe's understanding of the game is higher, but on the court he let his ego get the best of him many times. I believe his game fit his personality, anti-social tendencies & a loner who didn't trust anyone & his play showed it at times with his selfishness, MJ had the same problem at times with a similar personality, although I believe MJ liked to socialize a bit more.

LeBron & Magic for example are charismatic natural leaders who love people & make friends easily. Both their personalities showed in their game in the way they got teammates involved.

[RRR3]

Celtics did the same strategy in 2010 during game 7, which resulted in 6-24 shooting. Nuggets did a similar stategy in game 7 a couple of years later, but this time Kobe actually trusted his teammates and finished the game with 8 assists.

One of the weird things about Kobe is that when he spoke about basketball, he was obviously smart. Look at Shaq & Kobe discuss basketball, Kobe's understanding of the game is higher, but on the court he let his ego get the best of him many times. I believe his game fit his personality, anti-social tendencies & a loner who didn't trust anyone & his play showed it at times with his selfishness, MJ had the same problem at times with a similar personality, although I believe MJ liked to socialize a bit more.

LeBron & Magic for example are charismatic natural leaders who love people & make friends easily. Both their personalities showed in their game in the way they got teammates involved.
The difference is MJ didn’t force up shots he couldn’t hit.

[tpols]

Celtics did the same strategy in 2010 during game 7, which resulted in 6-24 shooting. Nuggets did a similar stategy in game 7 a couple of years later, but this time Kobe actually trusted his teammates and finished the game with 8 assists.

One of the weird things about Kobe is that when he spoke about basketball, he was obviously smart. Look at Shaq & Kobe discuss basketball, Kobe's understanding of the game is higher, but on the court he let his ego get the best of him many times. I believe his game fit his personality, anti-social tendencies & a loner who didn't trust anyone & his play showed it at times with his selfishness, MJ had the same problem at times with a similar personality, although I believe MJ liked to socialize a bit more.

LeBron & Magic for example are charismatic natural leaders who love people & make friends easily. Both their personalities showed in their game in the way they got teammates involved.

Can't put Magic and Lebron in the same tier of teammate elevators though. Magic led much better offenses no matter the personal. Even when Kareem was done he was still doing it. Lebron was a score first player. Magic was pass first. Huge difference.

Magic was also much more charismatic than Lebron. He had a natural smile and flow. Lebron is corny by comparison.

[1987_Lakers]

Can't put Magic and Lebron in the same tier of teammate elevators though. Magic led much better offenses no matter the personal. Even when Kareem was done he was still doing it. Lebron was a score first player. Magic was pass first. Huge difference.

Magic was also much more charismatic than Lebron. He had a natural smile and flow. Lebron is corny by comparison.

Just imagine if twitter was around when Magic was playing. :oldlol:

https://images2.minutemediacdn.com/image/upload/c_fill,w_720,ar_16:9,f_auto,q_auto,g_auto/shape%2Fcover%2Fsport%2FScreen-Shot-2019-05-22-at-51321-PM-77d0de8e570dcc6300755e11a720c848.jpg

https://www.12up.com/posts/10-lamest-magic-johnson-tweets-of-all-time-01dbgn09de65

[tpols]

Magic was smooth and cool effortlessly. Lebron... isn't. You guys probably have a lot in common. :lol

[Tavr]

The funny thing is I can’t stand Jokic so it’s not like I’m stanning him arguing for him. I just have seen enough of him to know scoring is easier for him than Kobe. A lot of Kobe’s game was relying on tough shots, he could make them but it’s not always something that you can count on in playoff games hence the inefficiency in a lot of his runs. You give Jokic the ball in the post he will generally score on the other hand.

All of this is fair. Good stuff



Celtics did the same strategy in 2010 during game 7, which resulted in 6-24 shooting. Nuggets did a similar stategy in game 7 a couple of years later, but this time Kobe actually trusted his teammates and finished the game with 8 assists.

One of the weird things about Kobe is that when he spoke about basketball, he was obviously smart. Look at Shaq & Kobe discuss basketball, Kobe's understanding of the game is higher, but on the court he let his ego get the best of him many times. I believe his game fit his personality, anti-social tendencies & a loner who didn't trust anyone & his play showed it at times with his selfishness, MJ had the same problem at times with a similar personality, although I believe MJ liked to socialize a bit more.

LeBron & Magic for example are charismatic natural leaders who love people & make friends easily. Both their personalities showed in their game in the way they got teammates involved.

In the playoffs, Wade against that same Boston team averaged 33/7/6 on 53% shooting. I still have that Game 4 performance (46pts) burned into my memory. Dude was absolutely cooking from deep. Wade during his prime had a knack for shredding the best defenses.

The psychology aspect I won't get into much, but yes, Kobe's ego absolutely hindered his decision making. There was no shot Kobe took he didn't think he could make. This unwavering confidence is what made him legendary, but you also got these poor shooting stretches as a result. The ultimate double-edged sword.

[1987_Lakers]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/F_qLJsTXYAABYOS.jpg

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/F9FM2MAXwAAMUh_.jpg

How this guy was ever a GM is beyond me. Talk about stating the obvious. LeBron did the right thing getting him fired for Pelinka.

[RRR3]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/F_qLJsTXYAABYOS.jpg

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/F9FM2MAXwAAMUh_.jpg

How this guy was ever a GM is beyond me. LeBron did the right thing getting him fired for Pelinka.
What does this have to do with this thread lmao

[tpols]

What does this have to do with this thread lmao

Hes retarded and throwing shit at the wall. Fact is Magic was a GOAT offense engine and teammate elevator in a way few have replicated.

[1987_Lakers]

What does this have to do with this thread lmao

tpols mentioning LeBron being corny compared to Magic immediately made me think of Magic's corny tweets and now I'm just making myself laugh reading all these past tweets. This shit is hilarious.

[tpols]

I mean... he is. Magic was naturally cool. Lebron tries to be cool. Theres a stark difference.

[1987_Lakers]

I mean... he is. Magic was naturally cool. Lebron tries to be cool. Theres a stark difference.

I think both have that cool personality. Magic is more of a calm cool type who makes people like him with that contagious laugh. I remember when Magic was on the episode of Punk'd, he handled himself very calmly when many people would have lost their shit.

LeBron is smarter as a person, funnier, & has the charisma which makes teammates like him. Both use laughter as a tool to gain trust from others, although Magic's laugh is more of a trademark.

[tpols]

To put Lebron and Magic charisma on the same energy field is crazy. Theres levels to this shit. Im a Kobe fan and even I would admit Magics aura and mindset for elevating those around him was better. Theres no need to be delusional.

[Hey Yo]

Just imagine if twitter was around when Magic was playing. :oldlol:

https://images2.minutemediacdn.com/image/upload/c_fill,w_720,ar_16:9,f_auto,q_auto,g_auto/shape%2Fcover%2Fsport%2FScreen-Shot-2019-05-22-at-51321-PM-77d0de8e570dcc6300755e11a720c848.jpg

https://www.12up.com/posts/10-lamest-magic-johnson-tweets-of-all-time-01dbgn09de65

Never gets old

:lol

[1987_Lakers]

LeBron was born with "it". His very first interview as a teenager and already speaking like an adult and making reporters laugh.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zy7F5d4ANhY

[Hey Yo]

I mean... he is. Magic was naturally cool. Lebron tries to be cool. Theres a stark difference.

Magic sounds half retarded in this commercial


https://youtu.be/GmkwzqG4How?si=uvaBfUSFeC9kR1ef

[1987_Lakers]

Magic sounds half retarded in this commercial


https://youtu.be/GmkwzqG4How?si=uvaBfUSFeC9kR1ef

He is kinda dumb, loses some points in that regard. LeBron loses points for his inflated ego & drama queen tendencies at times. That's ESPYs speech a couple of years ago was no bueno.

[warriorfan]

Hes retarded and throwing shit at the wall. Fact is Magic was a GOAT offense engine and teammate elevator in a way few have replicated.

He’s having a meltdown because Magic is more charismatic than Bron. lmao

That guy is one weird little bron stan

[tpols]

Magic sounds half retarded in this commercial


https://youtu.be/GmkwzqG4How?si=uvaBfUSFeC9kR1ef

He could've been fully retarded, but still just... got along with people on a different level.

Its not pure cognitive capability... its connection. Emotional intelligence to the moon.

[1987_Lakers]

Never gets old

:lol

https://images2.minutemediacdn.com/image/upload/c_fill,w_1080,ar_16:9,f_auto,q_auto,g_auto/shape%2Fcover%2Fsport%2FScreen-Shot-2019-05-23-at-104412-AM-b6009197d7e8ada13866f3a08f0ab729.jpg

https://reactiongifs.me/cdn-cgi/imagedelivery/S36QsAbHn6yI9seDZ7V8aA/31daf7f9-f7c2-4657-a50c-2e4137332800/w=351

[tpols]

Hating on Magic isn't a good look bro.

This is a basketball forum.

[1987_Lakers]

Hating on Magic isn't a good look bro.

This is a basketball forum.

Stop getting defensive. It's all in fun.

I already agreed with you about Magic and even named some negatives about LeBron.

Bron haters have the worst sense of humor.

[tpols]

Its especially ironic since you named yourself after Magics team.

:lol

Thats a little funny.

[Baller234]

I don’t think I’ve even been talking about LeBron in this thread he’s just having a meltdown about him for some reason. The funny thing is I can’t stand Jokic so it’s not like I’m stanning him arguing for him. I just have seen enough of him to know scoring is easier for him than Kobe. A lot of Kobe’s game was relying on tough shots, he could make them but it’s not always something that you can count on in playoff games hence the inefficiency in a lot of his runs. You give Jokic the ball in the post he will generally score on the other hand. You could argue Jokic is the best offensive player ever not my fault bawler wants to overrate past players and underrate current ones.

Scoring in general is easier now genius. This is the softest most offensive friendly era of our lifetime. Back then when players got older and more injured their efficiency went down, not up. Lebron and Durant are basically shells of their former selves and yet somehow they're both scoring more "efficiently" than they did during their prime. That should give you a pretty big clue. :oldlol:

Kobe was the most dominant scorer in an era where scoring was a lot tougher, especially that stretch from 01-04 where both zone defense AND handchecking was allowed. During that timeframe he had eighty 40 point games and eight 50 point games. Even if Yolk took a time machine to that period and put all of his effort into scoring, he's coming nowhere close to that. :oldlol:

Now you could say Kobe played with Diesel so that made his job easier, but even after Shaq left to Miami Kobe recorded another twenty five 50 point games. Safe to say he was pretty good. :oldlol:

Could you imagine if Bean played in this era? With man to man defense and even more extreme no touch rules? Where players are afraid to commit on defense because they know they'll be called for a foul? Lol, skilled players have an advantage now more than ever. I don't know if he'd have the same green light this era because scoring is more of a team effort now, but Kobe would definitely eat. If SGA can lead the league in scoring I'm pretty sure Kobe could as well. The talent gap isn't huge but it's still there. I would still say Kobe is more of an isolation genius. SGA is great but he has to dribble a lot. Kobe could often create separation without even dribbling.

But SGA is great, and he's a better scorer than Yolk too. Anyone who says they would rather dump the ball to Yolk over SGA for a bucket is lying. Yolk was bothered Alex Caruso who's half his size. Yolk isn't even a shoe-in to get the ball over Jamal Murray. How could he possibly be in the discussion for best scorer ever??? :oldlol:

[sdot_thadon]

To put Lebron and Magic charisma on the same energy field is crazy. Theres levels to this shit. Im a Kobe fan and even I would admit Magics aura and mindset for elevating those around him was better. Theres no need to be delusional.

For the 80s. This is 2025 people are way different. Magic wouldn't be seen in the same light he was in the 80s. But he was all thst and more In his time.

[sdot_thadon]

Could you imagine if Bean played in this era? With man to man defense and even more extreme no touch rules? Where players are afraid to commit on defense because they know they'll be called for a foul? Lol, skilled players have an advantage now more than ever. I don't know if he'd have the same green light this era because scoring is more of a team effort now, but Kobe would definitely eat. If SGA can lead the league in scoring I'm pretty sure Kobe could as well. The talent gap isn't huge but it's still there. I would still say Kobe is more of an isolation genius. SGA is great but he has to dribble a lot. Kobe could often create separation without even dribbling.

I could imagine and the real question id have is would his shot selection be better? Because none of the "advantages" he'd gain matter if he still squanders them with bad shots. Hed be the same guy unless he decided to take better shots. And not saying him being the same is bad, hes a great player but the only improvement he could make is playing smarter.

[RRR3]

Scoring in general is easier now genius. This is the softest most offensive friendly era of our lifetime. Back then when players got older and more injured their efficiency went down, not up. Lebron and Durant are basically shells of their former selves and yet somehow they're both scoring more "efficiently" than they did during their prime. That should give you a pretty big clue. :oldlol:

Kobe was the most dominant scorer in an era where scoring was a lot tougher, especially that stretch from 01-04 where both zone defense AND handchecking was allowed. During that timeframe he had eighty 40 point games and eight 50 point games. Even if Yolk took a time machine to that period and put all of his effort into scoring, he's coming nowhere close to that. :oldlol:

Now you could say Kobe played with Diesel so that made his job easier, but even after Shaq left to Miami Kobe recorded another twenty five 50 point games. Safe to say he was pretty good. :oldlol:

Could you imagine if Bean played in this era? With man to man defense and even more extreme no touch rules? Where players are afraid to commit on defense because they know they'll be called for a foul? Lol, skilled players have an advantage now more than ever. I don't know if he'd have the same green light this era because scoring is more of a team effort now, but Kobe would definitely eat. If SGA can lead the league in scoring I'm pretty sure Kobe could as well. The talent gap isn't huge but it's still there. I would still say Kobe is more of an isolation genius. SGA is great but he has to dribble a lot. Kobe could often create separation without even dribbling.

But SGA is great, and he's a better scorer than Yolk too. Anyone who says they would rather dump the ball to Yolk over SGA for a bucket is lying. Yolk was bothered Alex Caruso who's half his size. Yolk isn't even a shoe-in to get the ball over Jamal Murray. How could he possibly be in the discussion for best scorer ever??? :oldlol:
No one said Jokic is in the discussion for best scorer ever. Just that he does it better than Kobe.

[Baller234]

I could imagine and the real question id have is would his shot selection be better? Because none of the "advantages" he'd gain matter if he still squanders them with bad shots. Hed be the same guy unless he decided to take better shots. And not saying him being the same is bad, hes a great player but the only improvement he could make is playing smarter.

Well obviously his game would have to change and adapt. He couldn't play as much hero ball as he used to but honestly he wouldn't have to, and I think even he would be smart enough to realize that.

Kobe would definitely be able to score at will in this era.

- He would be facing m2m coverage most of the time
- He would have WAY MORE wide open space
- He would have elite shooters in all corners

If he could score at will back then, he could do it now. Every single skilled player from the previous eras would be AS good or better now.

[RRR3]

Well obviously his game would have to change and adapt. He couldn't play as much hero ball as he used to but honestly he wouldn't have to, and I think even he would be smart enough to realize that.

Kobe would definitely be able to score at will in this era.

- He would be facing m2m coverage most of the time
- He would have WAY MORE wide open space
- He would have elite shooters in all corners

If he could score at will back then, he could do it now. Every single skilled player from the previous eras would be AS good or better now.
Kobe couldn’t shoot 3s. He’d be DeMar DeRozan today. Today’s era is stronger deal with it bub.

[j3lademaster]

https://www.reddit.com/r/NBATalk/comments/1n2x6b7/and_we_wonder_why_injuries_are_up/

Defense and offense are both way better today. The pool is much deeper now than the 90’s, the dream team was blowing teams out by 40/50 points, hardly anyone outside of the US can play. But the main thing is the conditioning of modern players. The stars todays aren’t playing against people literally drinking alcohol courtside from their Gatorade bottles.

[1987_Lakers]

https://www.reddit.com/r/NBATalk/comments/1n2x6b7/and_we_wonder_why_injuries_are_up/

Defense and offense are both way better today. The pool is much deeper now than the 90’s, the dream team was blowing teams out by 40/50 points, hardly anyone outside of the US can play. But the main thing is the conditioning of modern players. The stars todays aren’t playing against people literally drinking alcohol courtside from their Gatorade bottles.

That video :roll:

[RRR3]

https://www.reddit.com/r/NBATalk/comments/1n2x6b7/and_we_wonder_why_injuries_are_up/

Defense and offense are both way better today. The pool is much deeper now than the 90’s, the dream team was blowing teams out by 40/50 points, hardly anyone outside of the US can play. But the main thing is the conditioning of modern players. The stars todays aren’t playing against people literally drinking alcohol courtside from their Gatorade bottles.
Yeah anyone who thinks today is a weaker era is instantly worth ignoring. Just old people who are addicted to nostalgia.

[j3lademaster]

https://youtu.be/I54zNhwimS0?si=QYlfdPM4Wa_-r_xG

Gil taking about alcohol and drug use from when he played.

[sdot_thadon]

Theres a Thinking Basketball video i came across a few weeks ago I think everyone here needs to see on modern defense.

[RRR3]

Theres a Thinking Basketball video i came across a few weeks ago I think everyone here needs to see on modern defense.
If there was a Time Machine and we could see 90s teams play today it would be amazing to see the reactions of certain posters as the 90s teams get btfo. Just imagine their “defense” on curry he would have open shots all day

[sdot_thadon]

If there was a Time Machine and we could see 90s teams play today it would be amazing to see the reactions of certain posters as the 90s teams get btfo. Just imagine their “defense” on curry he would have open shots all day

Right. Found it. Probably deserves its own thread but check it out


https://youtu.be/KwzHW-c5h7M&si=3c0_FL6yI2_hlge5

[ArbitraryWater]

I don't know what I would have to be emotional about this in this case because I didn't grow up a Kobe fan.

Kobe is the most skilled, most fearless player we've seen since Mike. He has five rangz.

If that isn't enough to put him in the discussion for best player post-2000, or you think it's worth a laughing emoji, maybe you're the one who's unhinged and ignoring the facts.

This genuinely reads like a sarcastic post.


How can you possibly filter through so much bullshit in the political world and write up programmed bullshit like this?

[tontoz]

Stars from one era would be stars in any era, with the possible exception of some pre 1970 stars.

Overall the talent level is deeper now. There weren't many international players back in the 80s and 90s. Now there seem to be several on every team. Just a bigger talent pool to pull from.

I think YouTube is another big issue. Young guys now can copy moves from players past and present very easily from YouTube.

[sdot_thadon]

Stars from one era would be stars in any era, with the possible exception of some pre 1970 stars.

Overall the talent level is deeper now. There weren't many international players back in the 80s and 90s. Now there seem to be several on every team. Just a bigger talent pool to pull from.

I think YouTube is another big issue. Young guys now can copy moves from players past and present very easily from YouTube.

Agree. But I think tbe copying of moves is just an era to era thing. Mj didn't copy every single move he had but his game was more inspired by past players than anyone likes to admit. His era watched the previous one and so forth. Its the reason we got the iso heavy sg era shortly after MJ retired.

[warriorfan]

You guys sure like to worry about guys that you literally never seven saw play

Weird

[Baller234]

This genuinely reads like a sarcastic post.


How can you possibly filter through so much bullshit in the political world and write up programmed bullshit like this?

Because it's basketball fact bro.

The single most valuable asset a player can have, in terms of physical talent, is being able to score the ball unassisted. The best 1 on 1 scorer will always bring more value than any other type of player. It's the equivalent to having a joker card, a get out of jail free card. Think MJ. No one player could ever possibly bring more value than MJ because he's a nuclear bomb who can go off at any time. Kobe isn't Mike but I would say he is the next best thing.

If we were drafting teams and every player in their prime was available from 2000-current day, you would be a fool if you don't at least consider picking Kobe first. He's a dominant scorer that can be paired with basically any type of player. He could play with a great PG, he could play with a great big man. He's a leader on offense and a leader on defense. When the game gets tight, he could bail you out of a jam.

There are other great players, but chances are what they bring to the table can probably be replicated by other players. Yolk can rebound and play point but if I'm building around Kobe I can find other players who could rebound and play point. What Kobe brings to the table talent wise and mentality wise is irreplaceable. He's an autistic basketball savant.

The only other player I would consider picking before Kobe is Lebron, no one else.

[sdot_thadon]

Because it's basketball fact bro.

The single most valuable asset a player can have, in terms of physical talent, is being able to score the ball unassisted. The best 1 on 1 scorer will always bring more value than any other type of player. It's the equivalent to having a joker card, a get out of jail free card. Think MJ. No one player could ever possibly bring more value than MJ because he's a nuclear bomb who can go off at any time. Kobe isn't Mike but I would say he is the next best thing.

If we were drafting teams and every player in their prime was available from 2000-current day, you would be a fool if you don't at least consider picking Kobe first. He's a dominant scorer that can be paired with basically any type of player. He could play with a great PG, he could play with a great big man. He's a leader on offense and a leader on defense. When the game gets tight, he could bail you out of a jam.

There are other great players, but chances are what they bring to the table can probably be replicated by other players. Yolk can rebound and play point but if I'm building around Kobe I can find other players who could rebound and play point. What Kobe brings to the table talent wise and mentality wise is irreplaceable. He's an autistic basketball savant.

The only other player I would consider picking before Kobe is Lebron, no one else.

Thats arguable to say the least. A dominant big has proven to be the centerpiece of most dynasties in nba history..hell probably most champions period if we're really taking score. Also a guy who can make anyone a scorer with passing is just as invaluable. A iron wall of defense like Russell was the foundation of an 11 title dynasty. A shooter that can warp the entire court with range. A guy who can do it all was able to pull off a few incredible runs. Dynamic scorers have got the job done as well. Theres more than one way to skin a cat for sure.

[Baller234]

Thats arguable to say the least. A dominant big has proven to be the centerpiece of most dynasties in nba history..hell probably most champions period if we're really taking score. Also a guy who can make anyone a scorer with passing is just as invaluable. A iron wall of defense like Russell was the foundation of an 11 title dynasty. A shooter that can warp the entire court with range. A guy who can do it all was able to pull off a few incredible runs. Dynamic scorers have got the job done as well. Theres more than one way to skin a cat for sure.

You can't bring the 50's/60's into the discussion. That was pre-3pt shot. Totally different game, totally different dynamics. Literally a different sport. Rim protectors were valuable because teams weren't killing you from deep. Plus let's not beat around the bush, Russell & Chamberlain were athletic and physical marvels compared to the rest of the league... almost in an unfair way. They are both game changers who were ahead of their time, but drop both of them in the 80's/90's and that advantage would disappear.

When you talk about shooting I take it you're referring to Curry. The same applies. His dominance is tied to an era and a set of conditions. He couldn't dominate in an era without the 3pt shot because then his advantage would be gone too. And while Curry does bring a lot of value, one could argue even today that a guy like SGA brings more. At the very least it's a debate.

A great passer is valuable sure, but in clutch time I still want the great scorer over the great passer. I want the guy who has a reliable go-to move. I want the guy who's not afraid. Let's say Magic and Jordan were on the same team. In a clutch time situation there is zero excuse to give the ball to Magic over Jordan. Jordan is the better closer. Worst case scenario he draws a double or a collapse and finds the open man like he did Steve Kerr in 97. Best case scenario he gets put in a 1 on 1 situation, PLUS he could close the game from the free throw line. There is ZERO reason to give the ball to Magic over Jordan.

Jordan would be valuable in any era because his game is built on a complete and balanced fundamental skill set. He doesn't just thrive at one facet of the game, he thrives at all of them. The only unfair advantage Jordan had was time. He was able refine and expand the blueprint that was laid before him by guys like Elgin Baylor, Julius Erving and David Thompson. Putting Jordan in the 60's wouldn't be fair because he was working with advanced knowledge.

But the name of the game is putting the ball in the hoop, that is why scoring is most important.

[1987_Lakers]

Right. Found it. Probably deserves its own thread but check it out


https://youtu.be/KwzHW-c5h7M&si=3c0_FL6yI2_hlge5

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?521871-Why-%93no-one-plays-defense-in-the-NBA%94-Thinking-Basketball

3ball and warriorfan had a meltdown when I made a thread on it.

[Baller234]

"No guys really I know what I'm talking about. Here's a 30 minute video of some four eyed dork who never played and never coached."

Let me guess, charts and graphs.

[RRR3]

"No guys really I know what I'm talking about. Here's a 30 minute video of some four eyed dork who never played and never coached."

Let me guess, charts and graphs.
It tears you up inside that stats expose Kobe.

[Baller234]

It tears you up inside that stats expose Kobe.

Don't take it up with me, take it up with the litany of players who agree with me.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VvcmuUd6CHo

Things that repeatedly come up:

- "He was the toughest I ever had to guard..."

- "I would take him over Lebron..."

- "He's in the conversation only with Jordan..."


I'm not saying this proves I'm right, but it definitely proves you're a fukking idiot for sure.

[1987_Lakers]

Ben Taylor is one of the few guys who knows how to articulate his points well and backs up his claims.

Defenders today are guarding more space, making it harder. If you study history, you always see a trend where offenses rule the league for about a decade or so, defenses at some point figure them out and then it becomes a defensive league for a good period of time. The game is ALWAYS evolving which is something people don't take into account.

[RRR3]

Don't take it up with me, take it up with the litany of players who agree with me.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VvcmuUd6CHo

Things that repeatedly come up:

- "He was the toughest I ever had to guard..."

- "I would take him over Lebron..."

- "He's in the conversation only with Jordan..."


I'm not saying this proves I'm right, but it definitely proves you're a fukking idiot for sure.
Opinions don’t prove anything. Sorry bub. Stats expose Kobe as not top 10 material.

[RRR3]

Ben Taylor is one of the few guys who knows how to articulate his points well and backs up his claims.

Defenders today are guarding more space, making it harder. If you study history, you always see a trend where offenses rule the league for about a decade or so, defenses at some point figure them out and then it becomes a defensive league for a good period of time. The game is ALWAYS evolving which is something people don't take into account.
Ben Taylor’s research is incredible and he’s pretty well respected but because he would scoff at Kobe being a GOAT candidate bawler fills his diaper up and rages. Imagine being this devoted to Kobe :oldlol:

[Baller234]

Ben Taylor is one of the few guys who knows how to articulate his points well and backs up his claims.

Defenders today are guarding more space, making it harder. If you study history, you always see a trend where offenses rule the league for about a decade or so, defenses at some point figure them out and then it becomes a defensive league for a good period of time. The game is ALWAYS evolving which is something people don't take into account.

Defense is harder today yes. Teams are stretched more thin. They are rotating constantly.

But they are also PENALIZED for defense. They are AFRAID to play defense because of it. They are AFRAID to challenge and contest.

[RRR3]

Defense is harder today yes. Teams are stretched more thin. They are rotating constantly.

But they are also PENALIZED for defense. They are AFRAID to play defense because of it. They are AFRAID to challenge and contest.
More emotional nonsense. Shots are still contested watch a game instead of spanking it to Kobe highlights gramps.

[sdot_thadon]

You can't bring the 50's/60's into the discussion. That was pre-3pt shot. Totally different game, totally different dynamics. Literally a different sport. Rim protectors were valuable because teams weren't killing you from deep. Plus let's not beat around the bush, Russell & Chamberlain were athletic and physical marvels compared to the rest of the league... almost in an unfair way. They are both game changers who were ahead of their time, but drop both of them in the 80's/90's and that advantage would disappear.

When you talk about shooting I take it you're referring to Curry. The same applies. His dominance is tied to an era and a set of conditions. He couldn't dominate in an era without the 3pt shot because then his advantage would be gone too. And while Curry does bring a lot of value, one could argue even today that a guy like SGA brings more. At the very least it's a debate.

A great passer is valuable sure, but in clutch time I still want the great scorer over the great passer. I want the guy who has a reliable go-to move. I want the guy who's not afraid. Let's say Magic and Jordan were on the same team. In a clutch time situation there is zero excuse to give the ball to Magic over Jordan. Jordan is the better closer. Worst case scenario he draws a double or a collapse and finds the open man like he did Steve Kerr in 97. Best case scenario he gets put in a 1 on 1 situation, PLUS he could close the game from the free throw line. There is ZERO reason to give the ball to Magic over Jordan.

Jordan would be valuable in any era because his game is built on a complete and balanced fundamental skill set. He doesn't just thrive at one facet of the game, he thrives at all of them. The only unfair advantage Jordan had was time. He was able refine and expand the blueprint that was laid before him by guys like Elgin Baylor, Julius Erving and David Thompson. Putting Jordan in the 60's wouldn't be fair because he was working with advanced knowledge.

But the name of the game is putting the ball in the hoop, that is why scoring is most important.
So by your own logic you shouldn't bring the 80s/90s into the conversation either. No 3pt shooting, big men couldn't even shoot. No zone defense, way less strategy. Hell a bunch of guys still weren't even ambidextrous dribblers yet. Way less athletes in the game etc. It was a completely different game. Hitting guys you couldnt guard was literally considered the pinnacle of defesne for the time. Literally a different sport.

And again thats your preference of the most valuable skillset. Doesn't make it true. Its strange to supposed be a 90s guy and somehow not realize it was still tbe era of the big man. A small guy scoring will never equal the impact of a 2 way big. But that wasn't the point of my post. Obviously you can win alot of different ways depending on the personnel aroind that talent. And man the Lakers put the ball in Magics hands everytime at the end of the game. Id say it worked out just fine for them.

I agree Mj would be valuable in any era but you can say the same about a ton of the greats as well. The main unfair advantage over the 60s Mj had was traveling and carrying lol. If he played then he like any modern player would be reigned in a bit because of way more strict ballhandling rules. We always assume today's player will average 60 in that era without knowing the limitations of the era. The refs would have no mercy on a guy they have never heard of lol.

[sdot_thadon]

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?521871-Why-%93no-one-plays-defense-in-the-NBA%94-Thinking-Basketball

3ball and warriorfan had a meltdown when I made a thread on it.

Oh I must have missed that one i bet it was hilarious.

[RRR3]

Oh I must have missed that one i bet it was hilarious.
3ball has to be like what in his 60s at least and he’s still constantly sobbing like a little kid. It’s unreal.

[Baller234]

So by your own logic you shouldn't bring the 80s/90s into the conversation either. No 3pt shooting, big men couldn't even shoot. No zone defense, way less strategy. Hell a bunch of guys still weren't even ambidextrous dribblers yet. Way less athletes in the game etc. It was a completely different game. Hitting guys you couldnt guard was literally considered the pinnacle of defesne for the time. Literally a different sport.

And again thats your preference of the most valuable skillset. Doesn't make it true. Its strange to supposed be a 90s guy and somehow not realize it was still tbe era of the big man. A small guy scoring will never equal the impact of a 2 way big. But that wasn't the point of my post. Obviously you can win alot of different ways depending on the personnel aroind that talent. And man the Lakers put the ball in Magics hands everytime at the end of the game. Id say it worked out just fine for them.

I agree Mj would be valuable in any era but you can say the same about a ton of the greats as well. The main unfair advantage over the 60s Mj had was traveling and carrying lol. If he played then he like any modern player would be reigned in a bit because of way more strict ballhandling rules. We always assume today's player will average 60 in that era without knowing the limitations of the era. The refs would have no mercy on a guy they have never heard of lol.


1)

You're only making my case stronger with this paragraph. Yes precisely, teams weren't as offensively equipped in the 80's/90's compared to today. Today you have skilled shooters and agile bodies from 1 through 5. That means superstar scorers had a bigger burden to carry. They didn't have as much help.

And yes there was no zone D but you were still allowed to camp in the paint. When they allowed zone D they had to add defensive 3 seconds just to balance it out. You can't really play zone today because everyone in the lineup can shoot and spread the floor, so you have to play man. That means today's players are facing man coverage AND wide open lanes. It's easier to pick and pop than ever, drive and kick whenever... SCORE whenever.

2)

How could you possibly say this knowing full well that the 90's were a golden age for bigs and yet Jordan still dominated. No big in the 90's was more valuable than Jordan. Olajuwon at his peak has the ONLY case but Jordan's ability to close still gives him a huge edge.

I don't even know why you would bring up Magic getting the ball. I never said he wasn't a clutch player. I said he wouldn't be the primary option if he played with Jordan. The Lakers were already using Kareem and BGJ to bail them out in those situations, it wasn't always Magic. He would dump to them plenty. If Jordan is on the roster it's a foregone conclusion he's the one you want with the ball in his hands over Magic.

3)

You could be right about that actually. The pre-modern game was officiated differently. For all we know Jordan doesn't get away with his stutter step or his crossover, but he would be so far ahead of the rest of the league in terms of skill and fundamentals they would think he is an alien. Again it's not fair because Jordan had the benefit of time.

A lot of these greats were ahead of their time, which is what made them great. But time catches up. Wilt set the bar for bigs during his day but I'm convinced I've seen more skilled bigs come along since. I know that's not fair to Wilt but it's the truth. That's usually the natural way of things. The iphone 1 is the greater and more landmark invention than the iphone 17, but the 17 is way more advanced.

But honest to god it's been 27 years since MJ retired from the bulls and I've yet to see someone come along that's better. His game has held up THAT well. He's STILL the best I've ever seen. His game is timeless.

[sdot_thadon]

1)

You're only making my case stronger with this paragraph. Yes precisely, teams weren't as offensively equipped in the 80's/90's compared to today. Today you have skilled shooters and agile bodies from 1 through 5. That means superstar scorers had a bigger burden to carry. They didn't have as much help.

And yes there was no zone D but you were still allowed to camp in the paint. When they allowed zone D they had to add defensive 3 seconds just to balance it out. You can't really play zone today because everyone in the lineup can shoot and spread the floor, so you have to play man. That means today's players are facing man coverage AND wide open lanes. It's easier to pick and pop than ever, drive and kick whenever... SCORE whenever.

2)

How could you possibly say this knowing full well that the 90's were a golden age for bigs and yet Jordan still dominated. No big in the 90's was more valuable than Jordan. Olajuwon at his peak has the ONLY case but Jordan's ability to close still gives him a huge edge.

I don't even know why you would bring up Magic getting the ball. I never said he wasn't a clutch player. I said he wouldn't be the primary option if he played with Jordan. The Lakers were already using Kareem and BGJ to bail them out in those situations, it wasn't always Magic. He would dump to them plenty. If Jordan is on the roster it's a foregone conclusion he's the one you want with the ball in his hands over Magic.

3)

You could be right about that actually. The pre-modern game was officiated differently. For all we know Jordan doesn't get away with his stutter step or his crossover, but he would be so far ahead of the rest of the league in terms of skill and fundamentals they would think he is an alien. Again it's not fair because Jordan had the benefit of time.

A lot of these greats were ahead of their time, which is what made them great. But time catches up. Wilt set the bar for bigs during his day but I'm convinced I've seen more skilled bigs come along since. I know that's not fair to Wilt but it's the truth. That's usually the natural way of things. The iphone 1 is the greater and more landmark invention than the iphone 17, but the 17 is way more advanced.

But honest to god it's been 27 years since MJ retired from the bulls and I've yet to see someone come along that's better. His game has held up THAT well. He's STILL the best I've ever seen. His game is timeless.

That doesn't counter your stance that the 60s were a different game so they cant be included. So we're the 80/90s yet we still act as if the 90s are the same as today for purpose of discussion. Kinda weird because we're further away from the 90s right now than the 90s were from tbe 60s.

And yeah Mj had the best team of the 90s. I wouldnt take anyone over him from that era although with as much talent as the bulls had Olajuwon would be tempting. But even with Mj as my favorite player from thar era im still not going to say he had more impact than the elite 2 way bigman. The game was still made for them during that time. None of them had a Scottie Pippen alongside them and closet we saw was when Shaq had young Kobe before he fully developed. And you saw how dynamic that was.


The iphone 1 is the greater and more landmark invention than the iphone 17, but the 17 is way more advanced.
Exactly. Oh wait except for that one era thats stands out in time amongst all sports and years....lol

[Baller234]

That doesn't counter your stance that the 60s were a different game so they cant be included. So we're the 80/90s yet we still act as if the 90s are the same as today for purpose of discussion. Kinda weird because we're further away from the 90s right now than the 90s were from tbe 60s.

And yeah Mj had the best team of the 90s. I wouldnt take anyone over him from that era although with as much talent as the bulls had Olajuwon would be tempting. But even with Mj as my favorite player from thar era im still not going to say he had more impact than the elite 2 way bigman. The game was still made for them during that time. None of them had a Scottie Pippen alongside them and closet we saw was when Shaq had young Kobe before he fully developed. And you saw how dynamic that was.


Exactly. Oh wait except for that one era thats stands out in time amongst all sports and years....lol

I didn't say the 90's is the be all and end all, I'm simply saying that Jordan's value transcends time and transcends era. He is going to dominate no matter what era you put him in, no matter the rules. If he plays in the 60's he's an alien freak, if he plays today he's still the best overall player in the league. The game has advanced yes but it some ways it's also regressed. The guys that can beat you 1 on 1 have a bigger edge than ever before. Think SGA, think Zion. If they're eating then so is Jordan because talent wise he is above them both.

You're aware that Jordan played on the dream team with Ewing, Robinson and Malone right? You're aware that once they had their scrimmages basically everyone on the team acknowledged Jordan was the man right?? Even the college stars that were brought in to scrimmage all said that Jordan was the best on the floor when they played.

[sdot_thadon]

I didn't say the 90's is the be all and end all, I'm simply saying that Jordan's value transcends time and transcends era. He is going to dominate no matter what era you put him in, no matter the rules. If he plays in the 60's he's an alien freak, if he plays today he's still the best overall player in the league. The game has advanced yes but it some ways it's also regressed. The guys that can beat you 1 on 1 have a bigger edge than ever before. Think SGA, think Zion. If they're eating then so is Jordan because talent wise he is above them both.

You're aware that Jordan played on the dream team with Ewing, Robinson and Malone right? You're aware that once they had their scrimmages basically everyone on the team acknowledged Jordan was the man right?? Even the college stars that were brought in to scrimmage all said that Jordan was the best on the floor when they played.

And if you think that about Mj you should also think that about LeBron. Its a weird transition that takes place between those names. Principle and narrative completely flip somehow. Even for big men the only era I think they're ever less effective is the current game, but a few would still manage to prosper.

Oh and in those Olympics the story was Pippen was the best player there. Maybe Mj just showed up for scrimmages lol.

[Baller234]

And if you think that about Mj you should also think that about LeBron. Its a weird transition that takes place between those names. Principle and narrative completely flip somehow. Even for big men the only era I think they're ever less effective is the current game, but a few would still manage to prosper.

Oh and in those Olympics the story was Pippen was the best player there. Maybe Mj just showed up for scrimmages lol.

Of course Lebron's greatness transcends era.

[tontoz]

Joe Johnson on the toughest guys he had to guard. No mention of Kobe.


"The toughest guys for me to guard were guys like Ray Allen, Reggie Miller and Rip Hamilton. It was too much for me, man," Johnson said with a huge smile on his face. "Chasing off them picks, they never stopped moving. Man, look, you guys spend so much energy defensively, it takes away your offense, that's the hardest part."

But what often went unnoticed was their basketball IQ - the sheer way they constantly read defenses and refused to stand still. They understood defenders would never willingly give them clean looks, so they kept running, circling the floor until one well-timed screen created just enough daylight to rise up and knock down a shot.



https://sports.yahoo.com/article/never-stopped-moving-joe-johnson-172400938.html

[Overdrive]

Joe Johnson on the toughest guys he had to guard. No mention of Kobe.



https://sports.yahoo.com/article/never-stopped-moving-joe-johnson-172400938.html

That's the perspective of a teamgame where help and team defense matters just as much as man defense. Players that can collapse a defense without the ball in hands are hard to guard on a man to man basis and require so much effort.

The other guys are often citing players that are hard to guard in a clearout situation like isos or buzzers. I think both, Johnson's views and the ones naming Kobe or T-Mac have a point, but as a defender I think having no chance against good team offense is much more frustrating than a guy hitting tough defended shots at a respectable, but not great clip.

[Chick Stern]

1)

You're only making my case stronger with this paragraph. Yes precisely, teams weren't as offensively equipped in the 80's/90's compared to today. Today you have skilled shooters and agile bodies from 1 through 5. That means superstar scorers had a bigger burden to carry. They didn't have as much help.

And yes there was no zone D but you were still allowed to camp in the paint. When they allowed zone D they had to add defensive 3 seconds just to balance it out. You can't really play zone today because everyone in the lineup can shoot and spread the floor, so you have to play man. That means today's players are facing man coverage AND wide open lanes. It's easier to pick and pop than ever, drive and kick whenever... SCORE whenever.

2)

How could you possibly say this knowing full well that the 90's were a golden age for bigs and yet Jordan still dominated.* No big in the 90's was more valuable than Jordan. Olajuwon at his peak has the ONLY case but Jordan's ability to close still gives him a huge edge.

I don't even know why you would bring up Magic getting the ball. I never said he wasn't a clutch player. I said he wouldn't be the primary option if he played with Jordan. The Lakers were already using Kareem and BGJ to bail them out in those situations, it wasn't always Magic. He would dump to them plenty. If Jordan is on the roster it's a foregone conclusion he's the one you want with the ball in his hands over Magic.

3)

You could be right about that actually. The pre-modern game was officiated differently. For all we know Jordan doesn't get away with his stutter step or his crossover, but he would be so far ahead of the rest of the league in terms of skill and fundamentals they would think he is an alien. Again it's not fair because Jordan had the benefit of time.

A lot of these greats were ahead of their time, which is what made them great. But time catches up. Wilt set the bar for bigs during his day but I'm convinced I've seen more skilled bigs come along since. I know that's not fair to Wilt but it's the truth. That's usually the natural way of things. The iphone 1 is the greater and more landmark invention than the iphone 17, but the 17 is way more advanced.

But honest to god it's been 27 years since MJ retired from the bulls and I've yet to see someone come along that's better. His game has held up THAT well. He's STILL the best I've ever seen. His game is timeless.

*during the WEAKEST NBA era