Hollinger and PER was the dumbest and worst thing to happen to fandom

[Baller234]

The church of Hollinger needs to go.

I'm tired of your graphs and equations. I'm tired of your made up advanced statistics.

There is no true way to measure a single player's "efficiency". These are not 1 on 1 scenarios. Everything a player does relies on how well his team is functioning. It depends on role, context and impact that goes beyond raw stats.

And even if it were possible, boiling a player's value down to just "efficiency" is stupid because efficiency isn't the only key to winning. How efficient a player is doesn't matter if he's lacking in other areas. How EFFECTIVE is this player? How CREATIVE is this player? How ADAPTABLE is this player? How RELIABLE is this player?? Who can I give the ball to and who can actually go out there and WIN us the game??

These stats are for losers and fa9s that couldn't hoop. Hollinger was probably the bench player on his CYO B-team. They have no idea what it means to be great and what it means to achieve. Not only that, it's also kind of selfish in a way because it totally discounts team success. It's hyper focusing on a player's individual performance when in reality no one out there should ever be worried about their own individual performance. You play to win, not for stats and not for efficiency.

That's it. That's my rant.

God bless America. God bless Adam Silver.

[Norcaliblunt]

It’s up there.

But basic player stanning that happened in result of Nike, Gatorade, and major corps branding players and making it about them instead of teams was worse.

[sdot_thadon]

I dunno why when I read the Op all I heard in my head was

Kobe, Kobe....kobekobekobekobe

[ArbitraryWater]

ok kenny

[tontoz]

PER rarely gets mentioned around here any more. When people bring up advanced stats they typically dont mention PER.

[Phoenix]

PER rarely gets mentioned around here any more. When people bring up advanced stats they typically dont mention PER.

I usually don't unless I'm dealing with a poster that starts throwing out VORP, Box +/- and a whole bunch of other shit they either don't understand or in what context those numbers should even be applied. You have posters who will tell you Stockton is better than Shaq because of VORP. Introducing all these things is the point basketball discourse started sucking.

[Baller234]

First of all, PER is referenced all the time here.

Second, it was PER that opened the floodgates and gave way to the "efficiency" conversation.

[ArbitraryWater]

First of all, PER is referenced all the time here.

Second, it was PER that opened the floodgates and gave way to the "efficiency" conversation.

Whats wrong with that, kenny?

[Baller234]

Whats wrong with that, kenny?

I don't know what you're talking about but I assume you're accusing me of being someone's alt.

I'll gladly do a ban bet with you if you can prove it.

[1987_Lakers]

The funny thing is Hollinger tweaked PER a little bit because his own stat had David Robinson higher than MJ, he tweaked it so MJ could be ahead of all the players and now Jokic is currently ahead of MJ in PER. I believe Jokic has the highest PER ever for a single season as well.

The thing I like about the stat is that it takes pace into account. Guys like LeBron and Durant have similar raw numbers today compared to their primes, but both have noticeably higher PER during the mid 2010s when they were obviously better players. PER is mostly an offensive stat though, doesn't really take defense into account.

And I don't know why we are trying to penalize players for being "efficient". :lol

[Baller234]

The funny thing is Hollinger tweaked PER a little bit because his own stat had David Robinson higher than MJ, he tweaked it so MJ could be ahead of all the players and now Jokic is currently ahead of MJ in PER. I believe Jokic has the highest PER ever for a single season as well.

The thing I like about the stat is that it takes pace into account. Guys like LeBron and Durant have similar raw numbers today compared to their primes, but both have noticeably higher PER during the mid 2010s when they were obviously better players. PER is mostly an offensive stat though, doesn't really take defense into account.

And I don't know why we are trying to penalize players for being "efficient". :lol

I didn't say efficiency was a bad thing. I said it shouldn't be the only thing people prioritize and take into account. I'm also saying there's no real way to measure it objectively because everyone has a different role on their team.

If you need graphs and equations to prove that you're the best player, you're probably not the best player. It should be obvious when you watch the game.

[SouBeachTalents]

I didn't say efficiency was a bad thing. I said it shouldn't be the only thing people prioritize and take into account. I'm also saying there's no real way to measure it objectively because everyone has a different role on their team.

If you need graphs and equations to prove that you're the best player, you're probably not the best player. It should be obvious when you watch the game.
I agree in theory, but people can be biased as fvck and just claim the player they like is best. Advanced stats are for sure far from the end all be all, but it is nice to have some metrics that can be used. I don't think it's a coincidence LeBron & Jordan, the consensus two best players of all time, are top 5 in virtually every advanced stat, often top 2.

[ArbitraryWater]

The new modern stats on efficiency and impact are by far the best thing thats ever happened to the sport.

Very few nerds focus solely on it, its not how public perception is built at all; but it doesnt allow people to just talk out of their ass anymore.

Advanced stats are a great indicator.

We heard some retarded things / opinions before they existed.

Acting like its somehow bad for the sport could only come from a biased fruitcake Kobe fan, which, OP just so happens to be.

Funny how those critizising the existence of advanced stats are always Kobe fans. Hmm.

[Baller234]

The new modern stats on efficiency and impact are by far the best thing thats ever happened to the sport.

Very few nerds focus solely on it, its not how public perception is built at all; but it doesnt allow people to just talk out of their ass anymore.

Advanced stats are a great indicator.

We heard some retarded things / opinions before they existed.

Acting like its somehow bad for the sport could only come from a biased fruitcake Kobe fan, which, OP just so happens to be.

Funny how those critizising the existence of advanced stats are always Kobe fans. Hmm.

Uh, you got the wrong guy dipshit. Never rooted for the guy growing up at all. In fact I resented him for a time because so many people in the media were trying to paint him as an equal to Jordan.

[Baller234]

I agree in theory, but people can be biased as fvck and just claim the player they like is best. Advanced stats are for sure far from the end all be all, but it is nice to have some metrics that can be used. I don't think it's a coincidence LeBron & Jordan, the consensus two best players of all time, are top 5 in virtually every advanced stat, often top 2.

You don't need stats to tell you that Jordan and Bron are two goats. It is obvious even without stats.

[ArbitraryWater]

You don't need stats to tell you that Jordan and Bron are two goats. It is obvious even without stats.

You might be surprised how many things are "obvious" to people.


Seriously? You of all people dont know how dumb and superficial a lot of humanity is, and on what frail basis opinions are formed?


Sure, Jordan and Bron is obvious, but go down the ranks, see how muddy the waters get...

[ArbitraryWater]

Uh, you got the wrong guy dipshit. Never rooted for the guy growing up at all. In fact I resented him for a time because so many people in the media were trying to paint him as an equal to Jordan.

sure, you just happen to think he might have the highest basketball peak of the 2000s cause, eye test, right?

Its just so obvious, right?


Who needs a damn stat to know Kobe has the best peak since the year 2000?


:lol


Youre the very living proof of why we badly need advanced stats so we dont have to give credence to moronic takes.

[Baller234]

sure, you just happen to think he might have the highest basketball peak of the 2000s cause, eye test, right?

Its just so obvious, right?


Who needs a damn stat to know Kobe has the best peak since the year 2000?


:lol


Youre the very living proof of why we badly need advanced stats so we dont have to give credence to moronic takes.

What are you fukking retarded?? I also said that Lebron has a case for best peak and I literally hate the man's guts.

But somehow saying that I think Kobe was the best player means I have to be a closet stan??? :oldlol:

Dude log off this is an infantile take.

[ArbitraryWater]

What are you fukking retarded?? I also said that Lebron has a case for best peak and I literally hate the man's guts.

But somehow saying that I think Kobe was the best player means I have to be a closet stan??? :oldlol:

Dude log off this is an infantile take.


Ive got your feathers extremely ruffled and its because you feel insecure now that this thread is making you look dumb.


You genuinely believe Kobe Bryant has the highest peak in basketball since the year 2000. You said you leaned that way.


THAT is fukking retarded, the opinion of someone who is not in touch with basketball on a meaningful level, and luckily we have advanced stats to te you your belief is NOWHERE CLOSE to being on point.

[Baller234]

Ive got your feathers extremely ruffled and its because you feel insecure now that this thread is making you look dumb.


You genuinely believe Kobe Bryant has the highest peak in basketball since the year 2000. You said you leaned that way.


THAT is fukking retarded, the opinion of someone who is not in touch with basketball on a meaningful level, and luckily we have advanced stats to te you your belief is NOWHERE CLOSE to being on point.

So anyone who thinks Kobe was the best player can't possibly think so objectively? There has to be some ulterior motive? :oldlol:

Do you have any idea how many players, coaches, etc... have Kobe #2 right behind Mike? Are they all just closet stans?

[ArbitraryWater]

So anyone who thinks Kobe was the best player can't possible think so objectively? There has to be some ulterior motive? :oldlol:

Do you have any idea how many players, coaches, etc... have Kobe #2 right behind Mike? Are they all just closet stans?


Im not saying theres an ulterior motive, youre just not informed.

There is absolutely nothing to base your assertion on. Nothing.

All you have is trust me bro.

Which is how you want it, but its also dumb and wrong.


And no, no coaches have Kobe at 2 behind Mike.

The players that have him at 2 behind Mike are the Beasley Stephenson Kenyon Martin etc types. Congrats grouping yourself with this elite group of minds.

[Baller234]

Im not saying theres an ulterior motive, youre just not informed.

There is absolutely nothing to base your assertion on. Nothing.

All you have is trust me bro.

Which is how you want it, but its also dumb and wrong.


And no, no coaches have Kobe at 2 behind Mike.

The players that have him at 2 behind Mike are the Beasley Stephenson Kenyon Martin etc types. Congrats grouping yourself with this elite group of minds.

Arby you were definitely the 2nd player off the bench on your CYO b-team.

Let's see. One of us pays attention and actually watches players to determine how good they are, the other one studies graphs and charts. :oldlol:

Being "efficient" and having a real winning impact are two different things.

[Tavr]

Hollinger tweaked PER so the players he held in high esteem actually lined up. Once that happened, I knew the stat was a complete joke. I prefer advanced metrics like RAPM. Its not box-score dependent and takes lineups and teammates into account (best used with a 3+ year sample).

Beyond that though? I'm all about watching film and using your eyes lol

[sdot_thadon]

Kobe lovin aside. Advanced stats are good to have albeit they should be taken with a grain of salt. Its kinda funny sometimes to watch these guys wield the numbers blindly not understanding the context or the way they are calculated. As long as you know going in PER doesn't really do much for defense and that it was edited to ensure MJ had the highest PER at the time, its ok to use in conjunction with other numbers to paint a broad picture. But using it as the only measure? Nah.

And efficiency is important, its not even up for discussion. A great scoring game on less shots is always regarded as more impressive than a chuck fest getting the same totals. Efficiency isnt important....yet its the 1st thing you want to point to when you want to say X was a better mid range shooter than Y. These things either matter or they dont, they cant just suddenly become important when it fits the narrative.

[Baller234]

Kobe lovin aside. Advanced stats are good to have albeit they should be taken with a grain of salt. Its kinda funny sometimes to watch these guys wield the numbers blindly not understanding the context or the way they are calculated. As long as you know going in PER doesn't really do much for defense and that it was edited to ensure MJ had the highest PER at the time, its ok to use in conjunction with other numbers to paint a broad picture. But using it as the only measure? Nah.

And efficiency is important, its not even up for discussion. A great scoring game on less shots is always regarded as more impressive than a chuck fest getting the same totals. Efficiency isnt important....yet its the 1st thing you want to point to when you want to say X was a better mid range shooter than Y. These things either matter or they dont, they cant just suddenly become important when it fits the narrative.

Player A shoots 9/20 @ 45%

Player B shoots 11/20 @ 55%

^ You're telling me that alone determines who had the better game? You can tell who played better and was more valuable to their team just by looking at those numbers?

[sdot_thadon]

Player A shoots 9/20 @ 45%

Player B shoots 11/20 @ 55%

^ You're telling me that alone determines who had the better game? You can tell who played better and was more valuable to their team just by looking at those numbers?

If it determines who is the better shooter in a different argument? Sure. This is where being a grounded adult comes into play. We make a big deal about 2ppg or even decimal ppg differences between guys sometimes when its literally one more make a game. And for the record those games you're using as an example normally aren't the debate. Usually its a 10-18 game vs 11-30. That is a notable gap.

[Baller234]

If it determines who is the better shooter in a different argument? Sure. This is where being a grounded adult comes into play. We make a big deal about 2ppg or even decimal ppg differences between guys sometimes when its literally one more make a game. And for the record those games you're using as an example normally aren't the debate. Usually its a 10-18 game vs 11-30. That is a notable gap.

It doesn't determine anything though because it totally leaves out context. Were those buckets assisted or unassisted? Were they clutch baskets or gimme baskets? What was their role on the team? What was the degree of difficulty?

Sorry but not all buckets are equal.

[sdot_thadon]

It doesn't determine anything though because it totally leaves out context. Were those buckets assisted or unassisted? Were they clutch baskets or gimme baskets? What was their role on the team? What was the degree of difficulty?

Sorry but not all buckets are equal.

So when you compare midrange shooting percentages, do you include those same disclaimers? My point is all stats should come with those same type of questions, but they never do unless there's a need to tear someone down.

[ArbitraryWater]

Arby you were definitely the 2nd player off the bench on your CYO b-team.

Let's see. One of us pays attention and actually watches players to determine how good they are, the other one studies graphs and charts. :oldlol:

Being "efficient" and having a real winning impact are two different things.


Nope, I include graphs and charts.

You dont like them because they shatter your illusions and biases.

There are many things that contribute to winning, grossly speaking efficiency is what wins. Thats the name of that word.

Of course intantibles exist and a few things cant be measured, but from everything that tangibly happens on a basketball court, advanced stats sum it up far better than your human eye.

Thats undeniable. You look like an emotional lesbian here.

[Baller234]

So when you compare midrange shooting percentages, do you include those same disclaimers? My point is all stats should come with those same type of questions, but they never do unless there's a need to tear someone down.

I don't need to study stats when comparing players to know who's better than who. They're good for reference but my eyes are enough.

[Baller234]

Nope, I include graphs and charts.

You dont like them because they shatter your illusions and biases.

There are many things that contribute to winning, grossly speaking efficiency is what wins. Thats the name of that word.

Of course intantibles exist and a few things cant be measured, but from everything that tangibly happens on a basketball court, advanced stats sum it up far better than your human eye.

Thats undeniable. You look like an emotional lesbian here.

Skill and effectiveness aren't intangibles though.

Kobe beat you not just with his intangibles but with his skill. That on top of his intangibles like adaptability, dependability, etc.

We both know that if the game is on the line, and you only have enough time for a single possession, the list of players you would rather give the ball to before Kobe isn't even really a list. It's a player or two at best.

That to me is more important than any retarded advanced statistic. Give me the guy who can dominate for 4 quarters from buzzer to buzzer over the guy who's predictable and stoppable but is technically more "efficient".

[sdot_thadon]

I don't need to study stats when comparing players to know who's better than who. They're good for reference but my eyes are enough.

Maybe you need to if your eyes tell you the guy who takes a ton of shots to get his total is better than a guy that just gets the job done over and over, becuase it "looks prettier."

The post under this one says something about who you'd give the ball to with the game on the line.....wouldnt it make sense to give it to the guy that has the most big-time gamewinners of everyone to ever play? Lets make it make sense.

[tontoz]

Player A shoots 9/20 @ 45%

Player B shoots 11/20 @ 55%

^ You're telling me that alone determines who had the better game? You can tell who played better and was more valuable to their team just by looking at those numbers?

The big flaw with PER is that it rewards volume scoring regardless of efficiency. Taking more shots will increase PER even if you are shooting only 35% on 2s.

[tontoz]

Skill and effectiveness aren't intangibles though.

Kobe beat you not just with his intangibles but with his skill. That on top of his intangibles like adaptability, dependability, etc.

We both know that if the game is on the line, and you only have enough time for a single possession, the list of players you would rather give the ball to before Kobe isn't even really a list. It's a player or two at best.

That to me is more important than any retarded advanced statistic. Give me the guy who can dominate for 4 quarters from buzzer to buzzer over the guy who's predictable and stoppable but is technically more "efficient".


LOL now i know where this nonsense thread came from, KoMe's bricklaying. :lol

[Baller234]

LOL now i know where this nonsense thread came from, KoMe's bricklaying. :lol

Guy was unquestionably the best player on a team that went to the finals three straight years and won two back to back, one of them against a stacked team of HOF stars and veterans. Not to mention his invaluable role in the first three-peat.

But yea what a loser and a chucker. Only an idiot would have him ranked high. Even KAT has a higher career PER, and as we all know PER is an extremely important statistic.

[tontoz]

Guy was unquestionably the best player on a team that went to the finals three straight years and won two back to back, one of them against a stacked team of HOF stars and veterans. Not to mention his invaluable role in the first three-peat.

But yea what a loser and a chucker. Only an idiot would have him ranked high. Even KAT has a higher career PER, and as we all know PER is an extremely important statistic.



Kobe was terrible at converting shots at the end of the game. He was awful and yet you claimed he would be at the top of the list of guys to pick for a last second shot.

:roll:

I have never seen any player put up more contested, long range bricks than Kobe.

[Baller234]

Kobe was terrible at converting shots at the end of the game. He was awful and yet you claimed he would be at the top of the list of guys to pick for a last second shot.

:roll:

I have never seen any player put up more contested, long range bricks than Kobe.

Arby, are you proud to have these type of retards back you up? :oldlol: :oldlol: :oldlol:

[tontoz]

Arby, are you proud to have these type of retards back you up? :oldlol: :oldlol: :oldlol:


Why don't you post Kobe's stats on shots at the end of games and/or clutch time? Because they suck.

The ironic thing is that PER rewards guys like Kobe who take a lot of shots without good efficiency.

[SouBeachTalents]

Why don't you post Kobe's stats on shots at the end of games and/or clutch time? Because they suck.
Why are you a nerd relying on stats. Kobe had killer instinct and the mamba mentality, try watching the games for once.

[sdot_thadon]

Why are you a nerd relying on stats. Kobe had killer instinct and the mamba mentality, try watching the games for once.

Right? Try watching all his gamewinners. 99% of them happened in the regular season when it matters most.

[tontoz]

Why are you a nerd relying on stats. Kobe had killer instinct and the mamba mentality, try watching the games for once.

I had to stop watching Kobe because his shot selection made my eyes bleed.

[Baller234]

I could understand not thinking Kobe is the GOAT, that's Mike.

I could also understand not thinking Kobe is the best POST Mike. I won't be offended if you think it's Bron. I might even entertain a semi serious argument for Duncan, Shaq, Jokic and Curry. They wouldn't be my picks but hey they're all really great players and they all had a stretch where they were really dominant.

What I don't get is the total refusal to put Bean in the discussion. That is not something I would expect to see from a community of "fans" who claim to have knowledge of the sport. If you are an avid watcher and consumer of the game and you don't think Kobe has a case for being the best player post-Jordan, or that he doesn't belong in the discussion... then yes sorry you're an idiotic dumb fukk and you should probably stick to playing video games.

[RRR3]

I could understand not thinking Kobe is the GOAT, that's Mike.

I could also understand not thinking Kobe is the best POST Mike. I won't be offended if you think it's Bron. I might even entertain a semi serious argument for Duncan, Shaq, Jokic and Curry. They wouldn't be my picks but hey they're all really great players and they all had a stretch where they were really dominant.

What I don't get is the total refusal to put Bean in the discussion. That is not something I would expect to see from a community of "fans" who claim to have knowledge of the sport. If you are an avid watcher and consumer of the game and you don't think Kobe has a case for being the best player post-Jordan, or that he doesn't belong in the discussion... then yes sorry you're an idiotic dumb fukk and you should probably stick to playing video games.
You once said Derek Jeter was better than Alex Rodriguez. Your sports knowledge is laughable.

[Baller234]

You once said Derek Jeter was better than Alex Rodriguez. Your sports knowledge is laughable.

Oh wow, you're an expert in baseball too? Who would have thought.

That makes baseball, basketball AND gender affirming care. You truly are a scholar for the ages. I tip my hat to you sir.

I hope you aren't offended by the sir. I wasn't sure of your pronouns.

[RRR3]

Whenever dimwit bawler is stumped he brings up trans people. Obsessed.

[ArbitraryWater]

Skill and effectiveness aren't intangibles though.

Kobe beat you not just with his intangibles but with his skill. That on top of his intangibles like adaptability, dependability, etc.

We both know that if the game is on the line, and you only have enough time for a single possession, the list of players you would rather give the ball to before Kobe isn't even really a list. It's a player or two at best.

That to me is more important than any retarded advanced statistic. Give me the guy who can dominate for 4 quarters from buzzer to buzzer over the guy who's predictable and stoppable but is technically more "efficient".


We dont know that at all.


Kobe was evidently terrible in these situations.


Heres a list for the playoffs for those shots:


https://i.gyazo.com/ca9099f9a0f29d305b910b9570ab2c84.png

https://i.gyazo.com/430e9925d377dd4a5b42bc76e882c794.png


It was the same in the regular season by the way.


Everyone here is making fun of you for your retardation.

[ArbitraryWater]

https://i.gyazo.com/ad79b461d5758477df944f6488625160.png


I think its genuinely hard to be worse than this.

2009/2010 was his only clutch year, and that only lasted in the regular season.


Gotta be insanely hard to keep up these delusions about Kobe being clutch, I cant even imagine trying :lol

but bro look at his scowl, hes got that Mamba instinct

[highwhey]

damn bawler, arby is calling you a straight beyaatch. you going to let your ethnicity be disrespected like that?


https://media1.tenor.com/m/a2J_phaf0t4AAAAC/birdman-respeck.gif

[ArbitraryWater]

bawler lmao

[Baller234]

Arby I can appreciate you disagreeing with me when it comes to hoops with your retarded opinions but giving HIGHwhey a pity dap should be beneath you.

[1987_Lakers]

2009/2010 was his only clutch year, and that only lasted in the regular season.


I remember him hitting a shit ton of game winners during the 2010 season, but besides that, he wasn't this insane clutch player, he usually bricked. In fact a lot of Lakers game winners in the playoffs came off a Kobe brick. Horry, Gasol, Artest all hit game winners off his misses.

Don't even get me started on his horrific stat line in game 7s and elimination games.

[Baller234]

It's funny, you guys keep insisting that Kobe isn't as good because he wasn't "efficient" but somehow he ended up with more championships and more finals appearances than most of the players being considered above him. Even if you wanna be cynical and discount the first three-peat because he was playing alongside another ATG, that still leaves three consecutive finals appearances with back-to-back rangz with Gasol as his best teammate. Gasol was very good obviously but never elite and the lakers were far from being a superteam.

So you tell me how a brick laying choke artist managed to squeeze out three consecutive finals appearances and back to back rangz if he was so inefficient and "not clutch".

Was it all luck?? :oldlol:

[1987_Lakers]

It's funny, you guys keep insisting that Kobe isn't as good because he wasn't "efficient" but somehow he ended up with more championships and more finals appearances than most of the players being considered above him. Even if you wanna be cynical and discount the first three-peat because he was playing alongside another ATG, that still leaves three consecutive finals appearances with back-to-back rangz with Gasol as his best teammate. Gasol was very good obviously but never elite and the lakers were far from being a superteam.

So you tell me how a brick laying choke artist managed to squeeze out three consecutive finals appearances and back to back rangz if he was so inefficient and "not clutch".

Was it all luck?? :oldlol:

Playing with peak Shaq helps.

Lakers were also loaded with talent compared to the rest of the league when they had Gasol.

Look at their 2009 run, they didn't play any elite teams to win a title.

2010, they played Nash/Suns team who already peaked from 2005-2007. Celtics were a legit team, but they were starting to age. KG was no longer the player he was 2 years prior.

[RRR3]

It's funny, you guys keep insisting that Kobe isn't as good because he wasn't "efficient" but somehow he ended up with more championships and more finals appearances than most of the players being considered above him. Even if you wanna be cynical and discount the first three-peat because he was playing alongside another ATG, that still leaves three consecutive finals appearances with back-to-back rangz with Gasol as his best teammate. Gasol was very good obviously but never elite and the lakers were far from being a superteam.

So you tell me how a brick laying choke artist managed to squeeze out three consecutive finals appearances and back to back rangz if he was so inefficient and "not clutch".

Was it all luck?? :oldlol:
You are very dimwitted and thus view a team sport as a 1 on 1 game. Hence you think it’s some great feat that Kobe won with the best supporting casts in the league and places him on the same level as players with probably more impact (again this stuff is tracked). Don’t get angry at people who can actually analyze the game deeper than surface level just because you can’t and gobble up ESPN narratives about Kobe being some GOAT candidate when he wasn’t even top 10 all time.

[RRR3]

Playing with peak Shaq helps.

Lakers were also loaded with talent compared to the rest of the league when they had Gasol.

Look at their 2009 run, they didn't play any elite teams to win a title.

2010, they played Nash/Suns team who already peaked from 2005-2007. Celtics were a legit team, but they were starting to age. KG was no longer the player he was 2 years prior.
How could they have beat the Celtics without Kobe’s deadly 6-24 shooting though? Only losers care about efficiency, Mamba beat ‘em with his bricks!

[Tavr]

Kobe is great...and based on resume a bonafide Top 10 player all-time. Easily imo. I'm reading this thread though and many of the arguments are ones I also use. Great player during his peak and prime, but there were arguably better wings even at that time. I'd actually take Wade who consistently performed better in the playoffs and finals.

Does anyone have that old chart of Kobe/LeBron/Wade vs like the Top 3 defenses? From '05-11, Wade consistently outplayed Kobe who casuals always said was "better". Wade actually outperformed LeBron some of those years too.

[Baller234]

Playing with peak Shaq helps.

Lakers were also loaded with talent compared to the rest of the league when they had Gasol.

Look at their 2009 run, they didn't play any elite teams to win a title.

2010, they played Nash/Suns team who already peaked from 2005-2007. Celtics were a legit team, but they were starting to age. KG was no longer the player he was 2 years prior.

I specifically went out of my way to leave out the Shaq years.

Lmao the lakers were loaded with talent???

Pau Gasol
Lamar Odom
Andrew Bynum
Trevor Ariza / Ron Artest
Derek Fisher

That is your starting lineup without Kobe.

Wow, what a stacked team!

[RRR3]

I specifically went out of my way to leave out the Shaq years.

Lmao the lakers were loaded with talent???

Pau Gasol
Lamar Odom
Andrew Bynum
Trevor Ariza / Ron Artest
Derek Fisher

That is your starting lineup without Kobe.

Wow, what a stacked team!
Compare that to the help the rest of the top stars had. Dwight had a nice cast but no one as good as Pau that's for sure and LeBron, CP3 and Wade were playing with crap.

[Baller234]

You are very dimwitted and thus view a team sport as a 1 on 1 game. Hence you think it’s some great feat that Kobe won with the best supporting casts in the league and places him on the same level as players with probably more impact (again this stuff is tracked). Don’t get angry at people who can actually analyze the game deeper than surface level just because you can’t and gobble up ESPN narratives about Kobe being some GOAT candidate when he wasn’t even top 10 all time.

You're right, why focus on trivial things like winning multiple championships?

We need to be looking at PER.

[RRR3]

You're right, why focus on trivial things like winning multiple championships?

We need to be looking at PER.
I assume you rank Robert Horry very highly then? And surely you have Bill Russell as the GOAT?

[1987_Lakers]

I specifically went out of my way to leave out the Shaq years.

Lmao the lakers were loaded with talent???

Pau Gasol
Lamar Odom
Andrew Bynum
Trevor Ariza / Ron Artest
Derek Fisher

That is your starting lineup without Kobe.

Wow, what a stacked team!

That's a pretty damn good cast. They went 6-3 without Kobe in those two years.

Look at Orlando's '09 team without Dwight. Same team that played the Lakers in the Finals

Hedo
Rashard Lewis
Rafer Alston
Courtney Lee
Mickaël Piétrus

LOL

[Baller234]

Compare that to the help the rest of the top stars had. Dwight had a nice cast but no one as good as Pau that's for sure and LeBron, CP3 and Wade were playing with crap.

Orlando had a SOLID starting five, stop it. Arguably a better five than the Lakers from top to bottom. Denver and Utah also had solid squads that year. Lakers ran through all of them.

Bean is what put them over the top. That was NOT a stacked Laker team. NO ONE is afraid of that team whatsoever without Bean.

[1987_Lakers]

And don't forget this.

The Los Angeles Lakers were 33-16 without Kobe Bryant between the 1999-00 and 2003-04 seasons.

Lakers still won 67% of their games without Kobe in the 2000-2004 Shaq-Kobe era.

:oldlol:

[Baller234]

I assume you rank Robert Horry very highly then? And surely you have Bill Russell as the GOAT?

Not even gonna dignify this post with a detailed response. It's that retarded.

Throwing Robert Horry (a role player) into the mix is like bad faith arguing 101.

[Full Court]

OP is not wrong. Advanced stats allow basketball morons like 1987_Loser, who ironically doesn't know what an advanced stat is, to spout them to try to pretend that they know what they're talking about.

Nothing can replace the eye test from someone who knows what they're watching.

[sdot_thadon]

I could understand not thinking Kobe is the GOAT, that's Mike.

I could also understand not thinking Kobe is the best POST Mike. I won't be offended if you think it's Bron. I might even entertain a semi serious argument for Duncan, Shaq, Jokic and Curry. They wouldn't be my picks but hey they're all really great players and they all had a stretch where they were really dominant.

What I don't get is the total refusal to put Bean in the discussion. That is not something I would expect to see from a community of "fans" who claim to have knowledge of the sport. If you are an avid watcher and consumer of the game and you don't think Kobe has a case for being the best player post-Jordan, or that he doesn't belong in the discussion... then yes sorry you're an idiotic dumb fukk and you should probably stick to playing video games.

While i dont hold him as high as you do, Kobe may get underrated some i can agree. I think he suffered from career perception honestly. Early in his career he was introduced to us as Shaq's sidekick. He literally halted a dynasty to try and beat that label. The rape allegations hurt his media protection that great face of the league players tend to get. On his own he was presented to us as the next Mj, he did a hell of an impersonation but ultimately fell a bit short. In my sports talk circle I always maintained he was a "parade brand" Jordan if youre old enough to understand what that means lol. Then in his absolute prime at the absolute peak of his powers, a kid comes in and not only makes us question his place in the pecking order but eventually blows past him as a player. This was pretty jarring for his diehards and they havent been able to accept it.....then he dies tragically leaving his memories frozen in time for his stans. Lately I've been seeing Kobe fans crying after any list or quote comes out that doesn't include him in the mix when while he was still alive he was being placed at 11th in the alltime debates. Maybe this is just how history will remember him.....

[Baller234]

And don't forget this.

The Los Angeles Lakers were 33-16 without Kobe Bryant between the 1999-00 and 2003-04 seasons.

Lakers still won 67% of their games without Kobe in the 2000-2004 Shaq-Kobe era.

:oldlol:

Lakers had the best record in the west during the 97-98 season. Shaq was unquestionably their best player and in the midst of his prime. Team was loaded with talent. Multiple star players.

SWEPT in the conference finals.

But sure by all means keep telling yourself that Shaq would have won rangz if Bean doesn't develop.

[Tavr]

It is pretty rich that LeBron stans think he didn't have help in 2009 or 2010.

Cleveland went 66-16 in 2009 :lol I genuinely expect someone to claim LeBron was playing 1v5.

[RRR3]

Orlando had a SOLID starting five, stop it. Arguably a better five than the Lakers from top to bottom. Denver and Utah also had solid squads that year. Lakers ran through all of them.

Bean is what put them over the top. That was NOT a stacked Laker team. NO ONE is afraid of that team whatsoever without Bean.
Yes the Lakers beat the teams they were supposed to beat congrats. But they didn’t beat anyone with arguably a stronger roster than them besides the Celtics. And Kobe shot like shit against the Celtics.

[RRR3]

Lakers had the best record in the west during the 97-98 season. Shaq was unquestionably their best player and in the midst of his prime. Team was loaded with talent. Multiple star players.

SWEPT in the conference finals.

But sure by all means keep telling yourself that Shaq would have won rangz if Bean doesn't develop.
Yeah how could Shaq have won in 2000 without Kobe’s deadly 15.6 PPG on 41.1 TS%.

[RRR3]

It is pretty rich that LeBron stans think he didn't have help in 2009 or 2010.

Cleveland went 66-16 in 2009 :lol I genuinely expect someone to claim LeBron was playing 1v5.
Mo Williams is not a guy a serious team has as their second best player.

[Baller234]

While i dont hold him as high as you do, Kobe may get underrated some i can agree. I think he suffered from career perception honestly. Early in his career he was introduced to us as Shaq's sidekick. He literally halted a dynasty to try and beat that label. The rape allegations hurt his media protection that great face of the league players tend to get. On his own he was presented to us as the next Mj, he did a hell of an impersonation but ultimately fell a bit short. In my sports talk circle I always maintained he was a "parade brand" Jordan if youre old enough to understand what that means lol. Then in his absolute prime at the absolute peak of his powers, a kid comes in and not only makes us question his place in the pecking order but eventually blows past him as a player. This was pretty jarring for his diehards and they havent been able to accept it.....then he dies tragically leaving his memories frozen in time for his stans. Lately I've been seeing Kobe fans crying after any list or quote comes out that doesn't include him in the mix when while he was still alive he was being placed at 11th in the alltime debates. Maybe this is just how history will remember him.....

Well I'm not a Kobe stan and I never rooted for him in real time. I didn't hate the guy but like you I was offended by the MJ comparisons. He came somewhat close but I never saw him as an equal.

When the Lakers played the Suns in the 2010 WCF I was rooting for the Suns because I knew that was their last hurrah. That was the only time I can remember rooting "against" Kobe, and of course that series was among his best performances ever.

I also hate Bron, like as a human. I don't wish ill on him but I genuinely don't like the guy.

My opinions are not rooted in ulterior motive and I have no agenda. I was NEVER a Bean fan and I'm actually a Lebron HATER. I have no loyalty or obligation to either of them.

After Mike retired those two are easily the best that I've seen with my own eyes.

[Tavr]

While i dont hold him as high as you do, Kobe may get underrated some i can agree. I think he suffered from career perception honestly. Early in his career he was introduced to us as Shaq's sidekick. He literally halted a dynasty to try and beat that label. The rape allegations hurt his media protection that great face of the league players tend to get. On his own he was presented to us as the next Mj, he did a hell of an impersonation but ultimately fell a bit short. In my sports talk circle I always maintained he was a "parade brand" Jordan if youre old enough to understand what that means lol. Then in his absolute prime at the absolute peak of his powers, a kid comes in and not only makes us question his place in the pecking order but eventually blows past him as a player. This was pretty jarring for his diehards and they havent been able to accept it.....then he dies tragically leaving his memories frozen in time for his stans. Lately I've been seeing Kobe fans crying after any list or quote comes out that doesn't include him in the mix when while he was still alive he was being placed at 11th in the alltime debates. Maybe this is just how history will remember him.....

Yeah, I think Kobe's resume is pretty obvious Top 10. 5 chips, 2 FMVPs, 1 MVP, 11x All-NBA 1st teams, 9x All-Defensive 1st teams... I can go on, but its a laundry list that I'm sure you're aware of by now. The fun part about these topics is when you start getting into the nooks and crannies. There were players in Kobe's era (during their prime) on his level and maybe even better.

[ArbitraryWater]

Orlando had a SOLID starting five, stop it. Arguably a better five than the Lakers from top to bottom. Denver and Utah also had solid squads that year. Lakers ran through all of them.

Bean is what put them over the top. That was NOT a stacked Laker team. NO ONE is afraid of that team whatsoever without Bean.


Please compare all the supporting casts of the stars those years.

:facepalm


None of Bron/Wade/Dwight/CP3 or Dirk had a single all-star to play with.


The Lakers team was by far the most loaded.

[1987_Lakers]

Please compare all the supporting casts of the stars those years.

:facepalm


None of Bron/Wade/Dwight/CP3 or Dirk had a single all-star to play with.


The Lakers team was by far the most loaded.

It was pretty accepted back in the day too by most fans.

I think the superteam era that happened after those years has people underwhelmed at those Lakers rosters. They are used to seeing ridiculously stacked teams winning titles now, this wasn't the case back then.

There was no better #2 option than Gasol back in 2009 & 2010. And the Lakers were damn near unbeatable when Odom was on his game.

[RRR3]

It was pretty accepted back in the day too by most fans.

I think the superteam era that happened after those years has people underwhelmed at those Lakers rosters. They are used to seeing ridiculously stacked teams winning titles now, this wasn't the case back then.

There was no better #2 option than Gasol back in 2009 & 2010. And the Lakers were damn near unbeatable when Odom was on his game.
Before recent years in which the constant injuries have made it more of a crapshoot the team that wins the championship was almost always the best roster. Sure you have exceptions like the Pistons in 2004, the Mavericks in 2011 or the Cavs in 2016, but generally the team with the strongest overall roster won. People are so desperate to view basketball as a 1 on 1 game and act as if 1 guy is responsible for everything.

[RRR3]

Yeah, I think Kobe's resume is pretty obvious Top 10. 5 chips, 2 FMVPs, 1 MVP, 11x All-NBA 1st teams, 9x All-Defensive 1st teams... I can go on, but its a laundry list that I'm sure you're aware of by now. The fun part about these topics is when you start getting into the nooks and crannies. There were players in Kobe's era (during their prime) on his level and maybe even better.
His resume is top 10 there have definitely been at least 10 players who were better at NBA basketball than him relative to their eras. I don't think Kobe ever had as much impact as MJ, LeBron, KAJ, Wilt, Russell, Magic, Bird, Shaq, Hakeem, Duncan, Curry or Jokic.

You mentioned RAPM earlier, so I find it odd you listed his defensive team nods, RAPM has Kobe ranked as a pretty miserable defender.

[1987_Lakers]

Lakers had the best record in the west during the 97-98 season. Shaq was unquestionably their best player and in the midst of his prime. Team was loaded with talent. Multiple star players.

SWEPT in the conference finals.

But sure by all means keep telling yourself that Shaq would have won rangz if Bean doesn't develop.

Still though. Imagine a LeBron team going 33-16 without him, wouldn't happen.

[Tavr]

His resume is top 10 there haved definitely been at least 10 players who were better at NBA basketball than him relative to their eras. You mentioned RAPM earlier, so I find it odd you listed his defensive team nods, RAPM has Kobe ranked as a pretty miserable defender.

I'm talking about Kobe's career resume, not his overall stats or impact. Again...on a surface level how is that resume NOT top 10?

There are many players who were actually better than Kobe. I've listed a few here and in other threads. Along with Wade, I'd also take Prime Steph Curry over Kobe. Is that really controversial though? :lol

[RRR3]

Still though. Imagine a LeBron team going 33-16 without him, wouldn't happen.
There is zero case Kobe was a better floor raiser than Shaq. Anyone trying to argue that is arguing with reality.

[RRR3]

I'm talking about Kobe's career resume, not his overall stats or impact. Again...on a surface level how is that resume NOT top 10?
On a surface level it is, but I don't like ranking players that way.

[Baller234]

Please compare all the supporting casts of the stars those years.

:facepalm


None of Bron/Wade/Dwight/CP3 or Dirk had a single all-star to play with.


The Lakers team was by far the most loaded.

Uh, fake news?

Bron and Dwight both had all-stars on their team that season. Dwight had two. Nelson missed the playoffs and wasn't 100% for the finals but it's not like he would have been the difference maker anyway.

Kobe is not the only player in history to win rangz playing with another star by his side. Let's not penalize him for that. The Lakers were a good team but please let's not call that roster "loaded".

[Baller234]

Still though. Imagine a LeBron team going 33-16 without him, wouldn't happen.

Because Bron's teams catered to his every need and made him the focal point of the entire offense.

Not saying it was a bad strategy. It's something you have to consider trying when you have a once in a generation talent like Bron who can both score and play QB at en elite level.

But yea, it means Bron is going to leave more of a hole when he's not there.

[RRR3]

Bawler has been reduced to comparing Jameer Nelson, Rashard Lewis and Mo Williams to Pau Gasol :lol

[Baller234]

On a surface level it is, but I don't like ranking players that way.

3tard is such a basketball genius that he doesn't even need to watch the games or the players.

He would really make an amazing scout. He just needs a graph and a calculator.

[Baller234]

Bawler has been reduced to comparing Jameer Nelson, Rashard Lewis and Mo Williams to Pau Gasol :lol

I was correcting a false statement.

[Baller234]

There is zero case Kobe was a better floor raiser than Shaq. Anyone trying to argue that is arguing with reality.

Speaking of arguing with reality, are you still of the opinion that a woman can have a c0ck?

[RRR3]

Every time I stump you, you bring up trans people. Obsessed.

[Baller234]

Every time I stump you, you bring up trans people. Obsessed.

"Arguing with reality"

- brought to you by the people who say Kobe isn't clutch. :oldlol:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ACZnF87Iy84

I want you to give me a list of players who could have converted here in these moments.

3.6 seconds, playoff game, down by 2, getting the ball mid transition, 20 feet from the basket, a defender in front of him, two help defenders on the way.

99.9% of players in that position are heaving up a prayer. Bron is bulldozing to the rim and hoping for the best, probably charges into his man. His stans would write it off as an unavoidable situation.

Jokic? He's slow as fukk and he's getting fronted LONG before he reaches the paint. He's probably off rhythm and heaving a prayer.

Duncan? Yea right.

Shaq? :oldlol:

Curry? Too small, not getting to the rim. He's settling for a off rhythm pull up.

Giannis? If he's allowed to take 4 steps sure lol. Probably fumbling the ball and looking fukking stupid in the process.

But what does Kobe do? Kobe jets STRAIGHT to the basket, reads the defense PERFECTLY... JUKES his man... SEES the help defender coming, shoots a fukking HIGH ARCHING ONE HANDED LAYUP because it's the only shot he knows he has available... and he fukking SWISHES it!!! And he did it all with intent!! It's how he drew it up in his mind! And he did it in 3.5 fukking seconds!! The level of mastery and skill required in that moment is fukking insane!!

And then what happens. Overtime. Down by 1. 4.9 seconds left. He gets the ball behind halfcourt, dribbles crosscourt into a DOUBLE TEAM... GETS to his spot... shoots a LEANING PULL UP JUMPER... and shoots with such CONFIDENCE you would think he was messing around at practice. Perfect form, totally unshaken. KUSHHHHHH. Game over.

NO ONE on your fukking list is letting off a CLEAN LOOK there. Not from MIDRANGE. Sorry Bron but those lanes were looking KIND OF clogged!! :oldlol:

CASE FUKKING DISMISSED!!

[RRR3]

I don't think anyone said Kobe wasn't clutch so much as people said he wasn't good at converting game winners. You don't need to be good at game winners to be clutch, it's just one aspect, but you were the one acting like he was good at them when he's not and it's backed up by data. You do realize posting a clip of ONE shot he made is a terrible way to argue right? For his career he shot like 25% on those shots

[Baller234]

I don't think anyone said Kobe wasn't clutch so much as people said he wasn't good at converting game winners. You don't need to be good at game winners to be clutch, it's just one aspect, but you were the one acting like he was good at them when he's not and it's backed up by data. You do realize posting a clip of ONE shot he made is a terrible way to argue right? For his career he shot like 25% on those shots

I said case dismissed.

[RRR3]

Tapping out are we

[Overdrive]

sure, you just happen to think he might have the highest basketball peak of the 2000s cause, eye test, right?

Its just so obvious, right?


Who needs a damn stat to know Kobe has the best peak since the year 2000?


:lol


Youre the very living proof of why we badly need advanced stats so we dont have to give credence to moronic takes.

It's funny how you just found out how this guy argues when you suddenly don't share an opinion.


"Arguing with reality"

- brought to you by the people who say Kobe isn't clutch. :oldlol:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ACZnF87Iy84

I want you to give me a list of players who could have converted here in these moments.

3.6 seconds, playoff game, down by 2, getting the ball mid transition, 20 feet from the basket, a defender in front of him, two help defenders on the way.

99.9% of players in that position are heaving up a prayer. Bron is bulldozing to the rim and hoping for the best, probably charges into his man. His stans would write it off as an unavoidable situation.

Jokic? He's slow as fukk and he's getting fronted LONG before he reaches the paint. He's probably off rhythm and heaving a prayer.

Duncan? Yea right.

Shaq? :oldlol:

Curry? Too small, not getting to the rim. He's settling for a off rhythm pull up.

Giannis? If he's allowed to take 4 steps sure lol. Probably fumbling the ball and looking fukking stupid in the process.

But what does Kobe do? Kobe jets STRAIGHT to the basket, reads the defense PERFECTLY... JUKES his man... SEES the help defender coming, shoots a fukking HIGH ARCHING ONE HANDED LAYUP because it's the only shot he knows he has available... and he fukking SWISHES it!!! And he did it all with intent!! It's how he drew it up in his mind! And he did it in 3.5 fukking seconds!! The level of mastery and skill required in that moment is fukking insane!!

And then what happens. Overtime. Down by 1. 4.9 seconds left. He gets the ball behind halfcourt, dribbles crosscourt into a DOUBLE TEAM... GETS to his spot... shoots a LEANING PULL UP JUMPER... and shoots with such CONFIDENCE you would think he was messing around at practice. Perfect form, totally unshaken. KUSHHHHHH. Game over.

NO ONE on your fukking list is letting off a CLEAN LOOK there. Not from MIDRANGE. Sorry Bron but those lanes were looking KIND OF clogged!! :oldlol:

CASE FUKKING DISMISSED!!

You're making other people's point here. It's the equivalent of anecdotical evidence. You bring up 1 shot. No matter how beautiful it was on a statistical basis Kobe missed those shots alot, but people are dishonest. They'll do a Kobe clutch compilation and he'll look like a god. Just show a video of every make and miss by Kobe in clutch situations. Even the eye test you guys love so much won't fail there.

Didn't we have a Kobe stan back in the day who called rings rangz?

[ArbitraryWater]

It's funny how you just found out how this guy argues when you suddenly don't share an opinion.

Nah, dude is completely unhinged and emotional when it comes to basketball. Completely unlike his political stuff where he has facts on his side.

[warriorfan]

Have you noticed it’s only pencil neck nerds who do the “actually kobe bryant wasn’t that good at basketball?”

[SouBeachTalents]

"Arguing with reality"

- brought to you by the people who say Kobe isn't clutch. :oldlol:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ACZnF87Iy84

I want you to give me a list of players who could have converted here in these moments.

3.6 seconds, playoff game, down by 2, getting the ball mid transition, 20 feet from the basket, a defender in front of him, two help defenders on the way.

99.9% of players in that position are heaving up a prayer. Bron is bulldozing to the rim and hoping for the best, probably charges into his man. His stans would write it off as an unavoidable situation.

Jokic? He's slow as fukk and he's getting fronted LONG before he reaches the paint. He's probably off rhythm and heaving a prayer.

Duncan? Yea right.

Shaq? :oldlol:

Curry? Too small, not getting to the rim. He's settling for a off rhythm pull up.

Giannis? If he's allowed to take 4 steps sure lol. Probably fumbling the ball and looking fukking stupid in the process.

But what does Kobe do? Kobe jets STRAIGHT to the basket, reads the defense PERFECTLY... JUKES his man... SEES the help defender coming, shoots a fukking HIGH ARCHING ONE HANDED LAYUP because it's the only shot he knows he has available... and he fukking SWISHES it!!! And he did it all with intent!! It's how he drew it up in his mind! And he did it in 3.5 fukking seconds!! The level of mastery and skill required in that moment is fukking insane!!

And then what happens. Overtime. Down by 1. 4.9 seconds left. He gets the ball behind halfcourt, dribbles crosscourt into a DOUBLE TEAM... GETS to his spot... shoots a LEANING PULL UP JUMPER... and shoots with such CONFIDENCE you would think he was messing around at practice. Perfect form, totally unshaken. KUSHHHHHH. Game over.

NO ONE on your fukking list is letting off a CLEAN LOOK there. Not from MIDRANGE. Sorry Bron but those lanes were looking KIND OF clogged!! :oldlol:

CASE FUKKING DISMISSED!!
Awesome stuff. Now show his Game 7 highlights, based off this that must've been a clutch clinic.

[SouBeachTalents]

Have you noticed it’s only pencil neck nerds who do the “actually kobe bryant wasn’t that good at basketball?”
Like guys who claimed Bosh was better than prime/FMVP Kobe.

[Baller234]

Awesome stuff. Now show his Game 7 highlights, based off this that must've been a clutch clinic.

Yea, let's judge every player's worth by their failures and hyper-focus on the times they weren't at their best. As if every player you name going to have some immaculate and flawless record.

Jokic had some monster "statistical" performances this last playoff but when it came to crunch time he shrunk and looked totally helpless. Not because he was afraid of the moment or anything like that but because he simply didn't have the skillset. He's predictable. If the defense wants to focus all their efforts on making him uncomfortable, they CAN.

Kobe is the only player with the combination of skill, poise and ingenuity to closeout that game in that type of fashion. Yea he has some stinkers but if you wanna focus on that instead of his heroics then that's on you. Five rangz isn't an accident.

[RRR3]

Yea, let's judge every player's worth by their failures and hyper-focus on the times they weren't at their best. As if every player you name going to have some immaculate and flawless record.

Jokic had some monster "statistical" performances this last playoff but when it came to crunch time he shrunk and looked totally helpless. Not because he was afraid of the moment or anything like that but because he simply didn't have the skillset. He's predictable. If the defense wants to focus all their efforts on making him uncomfortable, they CAN.

Kobe is the only player with the combination of skill, poise and ingenuity to closeout that game in that type of fashion. Yea he has some stinkers but if you wanna focus on that instead of his heroics then that's on you. Five rangz isn't an accident.
Jokic is straight up better at basketball than Kobe. Cope.

[Baller234]

Nah, dude is completely unhinged and emotional when it comes to basketball. Completely unlike his political stuff where he has facts on his side.

I don't know what I would have to be emotional about this in this case because I didn't grow up a Kobe fan.

Kobe is the most skilled, most fearless player we've seen since Mike. He has five rangz.

If that isn't enough to put him in the discussion for best player post-2000, or you think it's worth a laughing emoji, maybe you're the one who's unhinged and ignoring the facts.

[Baller234]

Jokic is straight up better at basketball than Kobe. Cope.

Joker is a TURNSTILE on defense! E-ZPASS!

:oldlol:

[RRR3]

Joker is a TURNSTILE on defense! E-ZPASS!

:oldlol:
He’s not great but you're overstating it. He’s also significantly better at offense than Kobe. Only a few guys have reached that level on offense.

[ShawkFactory]

"Arguing with reality"

- brought to you by the people who say Kobe isn't clutch. :oldlol:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ACZnF87Iy84

I want you to give me a list of players who could have converted here in these moments.

3.6 seconds, playoff game, down by 2, getting the ball mid transition, 20 feet from the basket, a defender in front of him, two help defenders on the way.

99.9% of players in that position are heaving up a prayer. Bron is bulldozing to the rim and hoping for the best, probably charges into his man. His stans would write it off as an unavoidable situation.

Jokic? He's slow as fukk and he's getting fronted LONG before he reaches the paint. He's probably off rhythm and heaving a prayer.

Duncan? Yea right.

Shaq? :oldlol:

Curry? Too small, not getting to the rim. He's settling for a off rhythm pull up.

Giannis? If he's allowed to take 4 steps sure lol. Probably fumbling the ball and looking fukking stupid in the process.

But what does Kobe do? Kobe jets STRAIGHT to the basket, reads the defense PERFECTLY... JUKES his man... SEES the help defender coming, shoots a fukking HIGH ARCHING ONE HANDED LAYUP because it's the only shot he knows he has available... and he fukking SWISHES it!!! And he did it all with intent!! It's how he drew it up in his mind! And he did it in 3.5 fukking seconds!! The level of mastery and skill required in that moment is fukking insane!!

And then what happens. Overtime. Down by 1. 4.9 seconds left. He gets the ball behind halfcourt, dribbles crosscourt into a DOUBLE TEAM... GETS to his spot... shoots a LEANING PULL UP JUMPER... and shoots with such CONFIDENCE you would think he was messing around at practice. Perfect form, totally unshaken. KUSHHHHHH. Game over.

NO ONE on your fukking list is letting off a CLEAN LOOK there. Not from MIDRANGE. Sorry Bron but those lanes were looking KIND OF clogged!! :oldlol:

CASE FUKKING DISMISSED!!

You really don't think Lebron, particularly PRIME Lebron converts that first one? Come on now :lol

He had the speed and power to get there before anyone is in sound position. Dude used to get clowned because all of his game winners were layups (in traffic mind you). He had incredible body control too. If that's 2009 Lebron that's probably a dunk.

[tpols]

Jokic is straight up better at basketball than Kobe. Cope.

Hasn't Yolk totally spanked Lebron in the playoffs though? He might be better than everybody.

[SouBeachTalents]

Hasn't Yolk totally spanked Lebron in the playoffs though? He might be better than everybody.
This is gonna be one of those tpols talking points that he posts repeatedly but omits important information, like LeBron being nearly 40 years old for those matchups :lol

[tpols]

This is gonna be one of those tpols talking points that he posts repeatedly but omits important information, like LeBron being nearly 40 years old for those matchups :lol

I watched those series and Lebron pretty much averaged his prime numbers. Maybe better. No excuses. If he was a shell he was a shell, but he wasnt. Jokic just owned him at an unprecedented level in the playoffs so its wierd to see Lebron stans rep Yolk when hes been your bane for so long.

[1987_Lakers]

Jokic is basically the Duncan of this era. Easily the best player of this generation just like Duncan was in the 00's, but doesn't get the recognition because he is not marketable.

You could make a great argument that Jokic has been the best player in the league for 5 straight seasons, which is something only Kareem, MJ, & LeBron have accomplished (and maybe Russell).

[1987_Lakers]

I watched those series and Lebron pretty much averaged his prime numbers. Maybe better. No excuses. If he was a shell he was a shell, but he wasnt. Jokic just owned him at an unprecedented level in the playoffs so its wierd to see Lebron stans rep Yolk when hes been your bane for so long.

LeBron played on a torn tendon in his foot in that 2023 series, which he needed surgery for. Despite that, he still locked up Jokic whenever he was matched up against him, unlike AD who got destroyed. And we all know a 40 year old LeBron locked him up in the 4th quarter in the Olympics.

[Baller234]

He’s not great but you're overstating it. He’s also significantly better at offense than Kobe. Only a few guys have reached that level on offense.

SIGNIFICANTLY better at offense that Kobe! :oldlol:

You know what's sick? You can't even articulate why. You just know that Joker has a higher PER, higher win shares and puts up more triple doubles. Your entire opinion is informed by numbers and made up statistics.

In crunch time Joker NEEDS his team to beat you. He CANNOT do it himself. He NEEDS to play the TWO-MAN game AT LEAST.

You CAN get the ball out of his hands. You CAN force him into an uncomfortable spot. We've SEEN this. He CAN'T just get any shot off he wants.

He is an AMAZING player. EASILY top 5 post-Jordan imo. But when he is at his ABSOLUTE best, it is when MURRAY or PORTER or GORDON is helping to carry the load. THAT is when the Nuggets win.

Basketball is not a 1 on 1 game, but sometimes IT IS. Sometimes it DOES come down to a 1 on 1 situation. Kobe can beat you with the two man game AND the one man game. He did it with Shaq and he did it with Gasol. None of those rangz even EXIST if Kobe wasn't capable of boiling the game down to 1 on 1 possessions. Shaq and Gasol would be RINGLESS.

So please tell me in WHAT ****ing universe is Jokic the better offensive player than Kobe??? Go ahead, make your case without mentioning PER or win shares. :oldlol: :oldlol: :oldlol:

Don't even get me started on defense!! :oldlol:

[RRR3]

LeBron played on a torn tendon in his foot in that 2023 series, which he needed surgery for. Despite that, he still locked up Jokic whenever he was matched up against him, unlike AD who got destroyed. And we all know a 40 year old LeBron locked him up in the 4th quarter in the Olympics.
Why are you arguing with someone who thinks LeBron is in his prime

[RRR3]

SIGNIFICANTLY better at offense that Kobe! :oldlol:

You know what's sick? You can't even articulate why. You just know that Joker has a higher PER, higher win shares and puts up more triple doubles. Your entire opinion is informed by numbers and made up statistics.

In crunch time Joker NEEDS his team to beat you. He CANNOT do it himself. He NEEDS to play the TWO-MAN game AT LEAST.

You CAN get the ball out of his hands. You CAN force him into an uncomfortable spot. We've SEEN this. He CAN'T just get any shot off he wants.

He is an AMAZING player. EASILY top 5 post-Jordan imo. But when he is at his ABSOLUTE best, it is when MURRAY or PORTER or GORDON is helping to carry the load. THAT is when the Nuggets win.

Basketball is not a 1 on 1 game, but sometimes IT IS. Sometimes it DOES come down to a 1 on 1 situation. Kobe can beat you with the two man game AND the one man game. He did it with Shaq and he did it with Gasol. None of those rangz even EXIST if Kobe wasn't capable of boiling the game down to 1 on 1 possessions. Shaq and Gasol would be RINGLESS.

So please tell me in WHAT ****ing universe is Jokic the better offensive player than Kobe??? Go ahead, make your case without mentioning PER or win shares. :oldlol: :oldlol: :oldlol:

Don't even get me started on defense!! :oldlol:
The one where Jokic is better at putting the ball in the hoop and passing. You know kind of the really important aspects of offense. Kobe was better at ball handling I’ll give him that but it’s nowhere near enough to make up the gap.

[tpols]

LeBron played on a torn tendon in his foot in that 2023 series, which he needed surgery for. Despite that, he still locked up Jokic whenever he was matched up against him, unlike AD who got destroyed. And we all know a 40 year old LeBron locked him up in the 4th quarter in the Olympics.

You mean the series where Lebron averaged 28/10/10 on great %'s? That was even better production than his general prime.

:lol

Yolk was just too much. It happens. Don't make excuses like b!tch when its clear he was playing at a prime level in that series.

[1987_Lakers]

So please tell me in WHAT ****ing universe Jokic the better offensive player than Kobe??? Go ahead, make your case without mentioning PER or win shares. :oldlol: :oldlol: :oldlol:

I thought this was universally accepted at this point? :oldlol:

You are comparing a guy with all-time great scoring efficiency who gives you 26-28 a night and who might be the best passer ever to a guy who was much more one-dimensional when comparing the two on offense. Kobe had great scoring skills, but he was often criticized for his shot selection and not even in the same dimension with Jokic as a passer.

[Baller234]

You really don't think Lebron, particularly PRIME Lebron converts that first one? Come on now :lol

He had the speed and power to get there before anyone is in sound position. Dude used to get clowned because all of his game winners were layups (in traffic mind you). He had incredible body control too. If that's 2009 Lebron that's probably a dunk.

Like I said, Lebron is bulldozing to the rim and hoping for the best. COULD he score there? Yea. I would give him a better chance than anyone else on the list.

But he's not going in with a plan, that's the problem. I dunno if he has it him to juke like that and get around his man. If you look at the clip Kobe was fronted but he weaseled his way out of it. Bron's plan is to just hope and pray he can get to a layup in time. He might have drawn a foul. Also not an ideal situation for Bron. :oldlol:

[1987_Lakers]

You mean the series where Lebron averaged 28/10/10 on great %'s? That was even better production than his general prime.

:lol

Yolk was just too much. It happens. Don't make excuses like b!tch when its clear he was playing at a prime level in that series.

Shows you how much of a beast LeBron is. He probably averages 40 if 100% healthy and 50 if he was in his 2018 version! Go back and watch that series, LeBron locks him up everytime he is matched up against Jokic.

[Baller234]

I thought this was universally accepted at this point?

You are comparing a guy with all-time great scoring efficiency who gives you 26-28 a night and who might be the best passer ever to a guy who was much more one-dimensional when comparing the two on offense. Kobe had great scoring skills, but he was often criticized for his shot selection and not even in the same dimension with Jokic as a passer.

Criticized for his shot selection yet he played winning basketball. :oldlol: :oldlol: :oldlol:

[RRR3]

Criticized for his shot selection yet he played winning basketball. :oldlol: :oldlol: :oldlol:
Are you seriously dumb enough to pretend Kobe had good shot selection? Even some of his biggest fans wil admit that was a flaw of his.

[1987_Lakers]

Criticized for his shot selection yet he played winning basketball. :oldlol: :oldlol: :oldlol:

Makes it easier to win when you have Shaq & Gasol on your side.

You are talking about a guy who shot 6-24 in the biggest game of his career.

[Baller234]

Are you seriously dumb enough to pretend Kobe had good shot selection? Even some of his biggest fans wil admit that was a flaw of his.

You're a GM and it's the year 2000.

An agent calls you and says:

"I have a guy who can score at will. Bad shot selection sometimes but pair him with another star player and you're guaranteed to contend. Five rangz in ten years..."

You wouldn't sign up for that deal??? :oldlol: :oldlol:

Yes Kobe took bad shots sometimes. Yes sometimes he had an ego. Sometimes it didn't work. Guess what. Five rangz.

Would seven have been enough? TEN?? How many mf'n rangz does a nikka need to win before you give him credit!?!?

:oldlol:

[Baller234]

Makes it easier to win when you have Shaq & Gasol on your side.

You are talking about a guy who shot 6-24 in the biggest game of his career.

Makes it easier to win when you have the best 1 on 1 player in basketball by your side...

[RRR3]

The only response he has is five rings. Pathetic :yaohappy:

[tpols]

Shows you how much of a beast LeBron is. He probably averages 40 if 100% healthy and 50 if he was in his 2018 version! Go back and watch that series, LeBron locks him up everytime he is matched up against Jokic.

He got swept. :roll:

Yall are funny.

[1987_Lakers]

Jokic at this point has to be in the convo for the best offensive player ever.

To me he is better than Bird, Shaq, Magic, Hakeem, & Kobe on that end.

He's in the discussion with MJ & LeBron.

[SouBeachTalents]

LeBron being held to the same standards as a 3x MVP and player of the decade at his peak at nearly 40 years old. And people want to claim he isn't the GOAT.

[RRR3]

Jokic at this point has to be in the convo for the best offensive player ever.

To me he is better than Bird, Shaq, Magic, Hakeem, & Kobe on that end.

He's in the discussion with MJ & LeBron.
How do you leave out Curry? Arguably the best offensive player ever peak wise.

[1987_Lakers]

How do you leave out Curry? Arguably the best offensive player ever peak wise.

I would say you could make an argument for top 5 for Curry, but his offensive game didn't always translate well in the playoffs like the other great offensive players.

[RRR3]

I would say you could make an argument for top 5 for Curry, but his offensive game didn't always translate well in the playoffs like the other great offensive players.
But the thing about him is he warps a defense so much even when he’s not shooting well. No other player does that to the degree he does. Besides maybe prime Shaq?

[ShawkFactory]

I watched those series and Lebron pretty much averaged his prime numbers. Maybe better. No excuses. If he was a shell he was a shell, but he wasnt. Jokic just owned him at an unprecedented level in the playoffs so its wierd to see Lebron stans rep Yolk when hes been your bane for so long.

You're STILL on this? :lol

Although you are getting some responses so mission accomplished I guess..

"I watched those series and Lebron pretty much averaged his prime numbers" is also an inherently hilarious statement :lol

[tpols]

GOATs dont get humiliated like that.

Even Wizards Jordan would at least take a game or two and he actually was a shell of himself. Him and AD would be a dangerous combo. Basically a 30ppg 7 foot Pippen. :lol

[1987_Lakers]

So please tell me in WHAT ****ing universe is Jokic the better offensive player than Kobe??? Go ahead, make your case without mentioning PER or win shares. :oldlol: :oldlol: :oldlol:

And if someone said peak Steve Nash was a better offensive player than Kobe, I wouldn't be too upset. Nash to me is probably the most underrated/somewhat forgotten offensive player ever.

This guy led the 2006 Suns with no Amare to the #2 offense. Kobe was at his absoulte peak that season and led the Lakers to the #8 offense. I would say the Suns still had more offensive weapons even without Amare than the Lakers did, but someone like Shawn Marion doesn't shine playing with Kobe like he did with Nash.

[RRR3]

And if someone said peak Steve Nash was a better offensive player than Kobe, I wouldn't be too upset. Nash to me is probably the most underrated/somewhat forgotten offensive player ever.

This guy led the 2006 Suns with no Amare to the #2 offense. Kobe was at his absoulte peak that season and led the Lakers to the #8 offense. I would say the Suns still had more offensive weapons even without Amare than the Lakers did, but someone Shawn Marion doesn't shine the way he did playing with Kobe like he did with Nash.
This is definitely going to trigger another meltdown from him. But remember he’s not a Kobe fan :lol

[Tavr]

How do LeBron stans mention LeBron being a "top 3 offensive player" but leave out Curry

Oh wait, they're LeBron stans lol. Anyway I'd throw Magic in that convo. Ditto with Peak Shaq, who teams had players just to foul him. Utterly dominant.

[1987_Lakers]

How do LeBron stans mention LeBron being a "top 3 offensive player" but leave out Curry

Oh wait, they're LeBron stans lol. Anyway I'd throw Magic in that convo. Ditto with Peak Shaq, who teams had players just to foul him. Utterly dominant.

You also think Pete Maravich was a great passer. :lol

MJ, LeBron, & Jokic are the gold standard for me.

I think NBA defenses eventually caught up to Curry in some ways as the years went on. Look at the 2021 season when Curry was getting MVP talks, Warriors had the #20 ranked offense. The next season in 2022 when they won a title? 17th ranked offense. He wasn't elevating his offenses during this time like he did in the past.

He changed the way defenses play defense and for that fact he should be in the discussion, but I don't have him top 3.

[tpols]

How do LeBron stans mention LeBron being a "top 3 offensive player" but leave out Curry

Oh wait, they're LeBron stans lol. Anyway I'd throw Magic in that convo. Ditto with Peak Shaq, who teams had players just to foul him. Utterly dominant.

They dont like him because his dynasty spanked their boy. Its funny they're using team offenses now... :lol

Lebron has never ever led team offenses on Currys level. His teams have never had the chemistry or ball movement to do so. Nash Suns and Curry Warriors were top ranked in assists and points not just in their respective years, but all time.

[SouBeachTalents]

GOATs dont get humiliated like that.

Even Wizards Jordan would at least take a game or two and he actually was a shell of himself. Him and AD would be a dangerous combo. Basically a 30ppg 7 foot Pippen. :lol
Wizards Jordan doesn't even make the conference finals in 2023, dude was a bum.


They dont like him because his dynasty spanked their boy. Its funny they're using team offenses now... :lol

Lebron has never ever led team offenses on Currys level. His teams have never had the chemistry or ball movement to do so. Nash Suns and Curry Warriors were top ranked in assists and points not just in their respective years, but all time.
Him needing to recruit KD to his already 73 win team after LeBron humiliated him the year before really takes some of the shine off this narrative.

[1987_Lakers]

They dont like him because his dynasty spanked their boy. Its funny they're using team offenses now... :lol

Lebron has never ever led team offenses on Currys level. His teams have never had the chemistry or ball movement to do so. Nash Suns and Curry Warriors were top ranked in assists and points not just in their respective years, but all time.

Curry never led a cast like LeBron had in '09 & '18 to a top 5 offense, LeBron did.

[tpols]

Wizards Jordan doesn't even make the conference finals in 2023, dude was a bum.


Him needing to recruit KD to his already 73 win team after LeBron humiliated him the year before really takes some of the shine off this narrative.

He led arguably the best offense of all time before KD joined dude. Your excuses are weak bro. If he had AD or Wade on that 2016 team in place of Klay or Dray it would've been even more devastating.

Guys like Curry, Jokic, Magic, Bird, and Nash are the GOAT offensive engines because their style results in elite ball movement and assist totals. Lebrons not even close. Kobe was a little closer but still less than them offensively.

[1987_Lakers]

They dont like him because his dynasty spanked their boy. Its funny they're using team offenses now... :lol

A few minutes later


He led arguably the best offense of all time before KD joined dude.

:lol

[SouBeachTalents]

He led arguably the best offense of all time before KD joined dude. Your excuses are weak bro. If he had AD or Wade on that 2016 team in place of Klay or Dray it would've been even more devastating.

Guys like Curry, Jokic, Magic, Bird, and Nash are the GOAT offensive engines because their style results in elite ball movement and assist totals. Lebrons not even close. Kobe was a little closer but still less than them offensively.
He did, and I don't even dispute your 2nd point, but the only times he ever beat LeBron was when he had a colossal talent advantage. Trying to spin that into some ownage is just you trying to cope with LeBron surpassing Kobe a decade ago and lapping him since.

[Tavr]

You also think Pete Maravich was a great passer. :lol

MJ, LeBron, & Jokic are the gold standard for me.

I think NBA defenses eventually caught up to Curry in some ways as the years went on. Look at the 2021 season when Curry was getting MVP talks, Warriors had the #20 ranked offense. The next season in 2022 when they won a title? 17th ranked offense. He wasn't elevating his offenses during this time like he did in the past.

He changed the way defenses play defense and for that fact he should be in the discussion, but I don't have him top 3.

Was that supposed to be a zinger? Lol your dumbass quite literally is the only poster who thinks he isn't. LeBron cant be the "gold standard" for offense, while Curry, whose offensive gravity is second to none...doesn't get a mention.

Tpols, was I lying saying this clown doesn't know shit about basketball :lol

[1987_Lakers]

Was that supposed to be a zinger? Lol your dumbass quite literally is the only poster who thinks he isn't. LeBron cant be the "gold standard" for offense, while Curry, whose offensive gravity is second to none...doesn't get a mention.

Tpols, was I lying saying this clown doesn't know shit about basketball :lol

You literally ran away from the other thread once I stated my case as to why he wasn't. You know it's bad when the only person who agrees with you is considered the most retarded person on this forum.

This is what you do, can't come back with any arguments and just start insulting posters. :lol

Curry's style of play comes with inconsistencies, could have moments where he is hot and looks like the best player ever and then there is a stretch where he can't buy a bucket and looks like a scrub. That's what usually happens when most of your attempts are 3s. Also doesn't have the playmaking abilities of LeBron & Jokic to make up for his cold stretches.

There is no insult in not including him top 3. I love Curry's game and think he is a top 10 player ever at this point.

[Tavr]

You literally ran away from the other thread once I stated my case as to why he wasn't. You know it's bad when the only person who agrees with you is considered the most retarded person on this forum.

This is what you do, can't come back with any arguments and just start insulting posters. :lol

Curry's style of play comes with inconsistencies, could have moments where he is hot and looks like the best player ever and then there is a stretch where he can't buy a bucket and looks like a scrub. That's what usually happens when most of your attempts are 3s. Also doesn't have the playmaking abilities of LeBron & Jokic to make up for his cold stretches.

There is no insult in not including him top 3. I love Curry's game and think he is a top 10 player ever at this point.

What case? Lol anyone with a pair of eyes and a functioning brain understands Pete Maravich was a great passer. You're basically saying Allen Iverson was never a good scorer because he wasn't as efficient.

Go on though. Tell us more about turnovers, bot. :lol

Currys "style" leads to historical offenses. And his gravity is the biggest reason for that. In contrast, you think someone who struggles playing off the ball, while being a poor jumpshooter the first of half of his career, is top 3 all-time. Look I'm really not trying to be an asshole... But you suck at this dude lol

[1987_Lakers]

What case? Lol anyone with a pair of eyes and a functioning brain understands Pete Maravich was a great passer. This akin to saying Allen Iverson wasn't a good scorer because he wasn't as efficient.

Go on though. Tell us more about turnovers, bot. :lol

Curry's style leads to historical offenses. And his gravity is the biggest the reason for that. In contrast, you think someone who struggles playing off the ball, while being a poor jumpshooter the first of half of his career, is top 3 all-time. Look I'm really not trying to be an asshole... But you suck at this dude.

Yea, someone who averaged over 6 apg with 5 topg and a known ball hog is considered a great passer. :lol

You just watched his fancy highlights and labeled him a great passer without knowing anything about his actual game.

Magic didn’t play off ball and didn’t have a jumper the first half of his career and you specially mentioned him in this discussion. Why the contradictions??

You suck at this.

[tontoz]

OP must be that kennethgriffin dude. He is the only one that would hug Kobe's nuts to this degree.

[sdot_thadon]

GOATs dont get humiliated like that.

Even Wizards Jordan would at least take a game or two and he actually was a shell of himself. Him and AD would be a dangerous combo. Basically a 30ppg 7 foot Pippen. :lol

News flash, Wizards MJ couldn't even make the playoffs in what may have been the worst version of the Eastern conference ever :oldlol:

Yea, let's judge every player's worth by their failures and hyper-focus on the times they weren't at their best. As if every player you name going to have some immaculate and flawless record. .
Yet this is the only way his detractors know how to approach a debate with Lebron in it. Funny coincidence?

[ArbitraryWater]

He did, and I don't even dispute your 2nd point, but the only times he ever beat LeBron was when he had a colossal talent advantage. Trying to spin that into some ownage is just you trying to cope with LeBron surpassing Kobe a decade ago and lapping him since.


ouch.

[Baller234]

And if someone said peak Steve Nash was a better offensive player than Kobe, I wouldn't be too upset. Nash to me is probably the most underrated/somewhat forgotten offensive player ever.

This guy led the 2006 Suns with no Amare to the #2 offense. Kobe was at his absoulte peak that season and led the Lakers to the #8 offense. I would say the Suns still had more offensive weapons even without Amare than the Lakers did, but someone like Shawn Marion doesn't shine playing with Kobe like he did with Nash.

Steve Nash was amazing. I was a huge fan of Steve Nash.

If we're talking about just offense then he almost has a case against Kobe honestly. They both fukk up the defense in different ways. Kobe demanded more attention and was constantly drawing doubles, traps and loaded help defense. With Nash defenses had to collapse on his drives and his pick and rolls. I would say both are elite in that regard.

But once again I have to lean towards Bean, because at the end of the day I want the guy who can close. Sure Nash can close, we've seen it. He was fearless as well and he could beat you with fundamentals, plus he was an amazing shooter, but Kobe is all that and more. He's taller, more athletic, more creative, more everything. At least when it comes purely to putting the ball in the hoop.

Like I said I was huge fan of Nash. When they faced the Lakers in the '10 WCF, I was rooting for the Suns. You saw how that Game 6 went. In the end they couldn't contain Kobe. They threw the kitchen sink at him. If that alone doesn't tell the story then I don't know what does.

Keep in mind that Kobe does all this on offense while ALSO being a leader and a pest on defense. He's imposing his will on BOTH sides of the floor. Think of the degree of difficulty to both, to be elite on both sides of the ball. For all you Jokic slurpers out there.

[Baller234]

Yet this is the only way his detractors know how to approach a debate with Lebron in it. Funny coincidence?

Nah it's different.

If you're gonna make a case for Player A over Player B, you probably shouldn't criticize Player B for something that also applies to Player A.

Yes Kobe had some stinkers. Yes sometimes he came up short. Guess what, so did your favorite player.

The only difference is that Kobe has five rangz.

[RRR3]

Nah it's different.

If you're gonna make a case for Player A over Player B, you probably shouldn't criticize Player B for something that also applies to Player A.

Yes Kobe had some stinkers. Yes sometimes he came up short. Guess what, so did your favorite player.

The only difference is that Kobe has five rangz.
Why do you keep bragging about a finals he won averaging 15.6 PPG on 41.1 TS%. Anyone could do that. Man was completely carried by Shaq that year.

[Baller234]

Why do you keep bragging about a finals he won averaging 15.6 PPG on 41.1 TS%. Anyone could do that. Man was completely carried by Shaq that year.

Winning a rang as a #2 is still winning a rang. They don't win without him. They definitely don't win Game 4.

Are you saying ANY player could have done what Kobe did in Game 4? At 21 years old?? On that big a stage??

And even if you wanna discount the rangz he won playing with Shaq, that still leaves three consecutive finals appearances without him... not to mention back to back rangz. In reality though Kobe had already grown into a leadership position by the end of the first three-peat.

You can keep tabulating fake numbers if you want to. You don't play for true shooting percentage, you play for rangz. Greatness finds a way. Your favorite player with a higher true shooting percentage hasn't delivered the same results.

[RRR3]

“Fake numbers”

Jesus you’re embarrassing yourself. TS% is just a measure of efficiency. Dont get mad at me because Kobe was horrible in that series.

[Baller234]

“Fake numbers”

Jesus you’re embarrassing yourself. TS% is just a measure of efficiency. Dont get mad at me because Kobe was horrible in that series.

And I've already proven that efficiency isn't the only thing that matters. Basketball is not a math equation. It requires players to actually execute. Sometimes on the fly.

You can't make a case for your favorite player without using the word efficiency or referencing some made up advanced stat that measures efficiency.

Like I said you're a basketball genius. You're so smart you don't even have to watch the games. It's all there in the numbers.

[RRR3]

You’re free to ignore data if it upsets you. But the best front offices use this stuff now to build their teams.

You have advanced stats because they make Kobe look overrated and break your worldview but the fact is many of them are just simply amalgamations of on/off data. No one is saying Kobe wasn’t great but you’re trying to make him into something he wasn’t. He wasn’t remotely a GOAT candidate and the data proves it.

[Baller234]

You’re free to ignore data if it upsets you. But the best front offices use this stuff now to build their teams.

You have advanced stats because they make Kobe look overrated and break your worldview but the fact is many of them are just simply amalgamations of on/off data. No one is saying Kobe wasn’t great but you’re trying to make him into something he wasn’t. He wasn’t remotely a GOAT candidate and the data proves it.

Go ahead and make a case for Joker being a better scorer than Kobe without talking about efficiency.

Efficiency is just one dimension of performance.

[Baller234]

Since you guys are so obsessed with "efficiency".


Company A

Net Income: $10 million

Revenue: $200 million

Net Margin: 5%


Company B

Net Income: $4 million

Revenue: $20 million

Net Margin: 20%


If you own Company A you earn more money but if you own Company B you earn less money "more efficiently".

Which company would you rather own??

:oldlol:

[RRR3]

Jokic focuses on getting his team involved a lot. Kobe did not. You really think Jokic is incapable of chucking his way to 35 ppg? He just averaged almost 30. Besides that 35 PPG was a one time thing for Kobe and he did it taking 27 shots a game which is insane.

[j3lademaster]

Since you guys are so obsessed with "efficiency".


Company A

Net Income: $10 million

Revenue: $200 million

Net Margin: 5%


Company B

Net Income: $4 million

Revenue: $20 million

Net Margin: 20%


If you own Company A you earn more money but if you own Company B you earn less money "more efficiently".

Which company would you rather own??

:oldlol:

https://media.tenor.com/fOj4_R2j_yIAAAAM/shocked-surprised.gif

What an odd analogy

[RRR3]

https://media.tenor.com/fOj4_R2j_yIAAAAM/shocked-surprised.gif

What an odd analogy
Don’t you know Kobe chucking up more shots means he’s a better scorer. Only raw volume matters. Iverson>Shaq

[sdot_thadon]

Nah it's different.

If you're gonna make a case for Player A over Player B, you probably shouldn't criticize Player B for something that also applies to Player A.

Yes Kobe had some stinkers. Yes sometimes he came up short. Guess what, so did your favorite player.

The only difference is that Kobe has five rangz.

Exactly this. Youre basically describing Lebron hate to a T. Except most of yall fail to realize majority of the shit yall harp on Lebron about has been done, by your favorite players in a ton of cases. I never saw great players judged by their few failures when they've got decades of incredible on the other side. Its strange af.

[Overdrive]

Since you guys are so obsessed with "efficiency".


Company A

Net Income: $10 million

Revenue: $200 million

Net Margin: 5%


Company B

Net Income: $4 million

Revenue: $20 million

Net Margin: 20%


If you own Company A you earn more money but if you own Company B you earn less money "more efficiently".

Which company would you rather own??

:oldlol:

Aside from your example pitting Kobe against Steve Kerr and not Lebron, because Lebron as a company would be like 200M revenue to 20M net income, company B is obviously healthier.

It takes it 4 years to save up a year's expenses while A needs 19. So chances are way higher it can survive a down year, while a down year would probably kill company A. The margin of error is way smaller for A. Accidently you made a good analogy but not the way intended. The margin of error for an inefficient player like Kobe is way smaller than for Lebron who needs a large drop off to become bad. The thing that held Lebron back compared to Jordan are that he had these drop offs.

[tpols]

Jokic focuses on getting his team involved a lot. Kobe did not. You really think Jokic is incapable of chucking his way to 35 ppg? He just averaged almost 30. Besides that 35 PPG was a one time thing for Kobe and he did it taking 27 shots a game which is insane.

Obviously Kobe isn't on Jokic level of teammate elevation, but to say Kobe didn't focus on getting his teammates involved? Yea youre retarded.

The Lakers ran a triangle system that had great assist ranks, ball movement and teamwork. And Kobe always had the most dimes out of anybody on the team.

[tontoz]

https://media.tenor.com/fOj4_R2j_yIAAAAM/shocked-surprised.gif

What an odd analogy



Seriously the level of stupid is hard to fathom. Company size has no correlation to winning basketball games.

The team with the better shooting efficiency wins roughly 80% of the time. If a guy is taking a lot of bad shots that means there's fewer good shots taken by the rest of the team.

[SouBeachTalents]

Seriously the level of stupid is hard to fathom. Company size has no correlation to winning basketball games.

The team with the better shooting efficiency wins roughly 80% of the time. If a guy is taking a lot of bad shots that means there's fewer good shots taken by the rest of the team.
That's why it's amazing the Lakers won during Kobe's 6/24 meltdown despite him taking some of the worst shots in the history of basketball.

[Baller234]

Seriously the level of stupid is hard to fathom. Company size has no correlation to winning basketball games.

The team with the better shooting efficiency wins roughly 80% of the time. If a guy is taking a lot of bad shots that means there's fewer good shots taken by the rest of the team.

LOL

In business, the goal is to make money. In sports, the goal is to win.

You can choose to be more "efficient" or you can choose to make more money. You can choose to be more "efficient" or you can play to win.

No matter what ridiculous fukking arguments you guys come up with to shit on Bean, for all of your retarded tabulations and calculations, his style of play and approach to the game led to winning basketball. Five rangz.

[RRR3]

LOL

In business, the goal is to make money. In sports, the goal is to win.

You can choose to be more "efficient" or you can choose to make more money. You can choose to be more "efficient" or you can play to win.

No matter what ridiculous fukking arguments you guys come up with to shit on Bean, for all of your retarded tabulations and calculations, his style of play and approach to the game led to winning basketball. Five rangz.
Great players can be flawed. Shocking to you I know.

[Baller234]

Jokic focuses on getting his team involved a lot. Kobe did not. You really think Jokic is incapable of chucking his way to 35 ppg? He just averaged almost 30. Besides that 35 PPG was a one time thing for Kobe and he did it taking 27 shots a game which is insane.

Hey dipshit, you said Joker was a better SCORER than Kobe. You said he was BETTER at putting the ball in the hoop.


The one where Jokic is better at putting the ball in the hoop and passing. You know kind of the really important aspects of offense. Kobe was better at ball handling I’ll give him that but it’s nowhere near enough to make up the gap.

^^ This is what you said.

Explain to us how Joker is better at SCORING then Kobe without leaning on made up advanced statistics.

Kobe who could score literally ANYWHERE from the floor and could create something out of nothing from ANY situation. Kobe who could catch the ball and execute a PERFECT turnaround jumper giving himself a clear look without even dribbling. Kobe who could beat you off the dribble and beat you a hundred different ways. EVERY fukking player that guarded Kobe said he was the toughest player they ever had to guard.

If Yolk tried to chuck his way to 35PPG it would be a total fukkin horror show because he doesn't have the bag. Yes he's a threat to score but he's never had to worry about drawing doubles 20 feet from the basket. :oldlol: If all of a sudden he decided to focus 100% of his efforts on scoring, the defense is gonna react to him differently now. :oldlol:

Yolk beats you playing a TEAM game. In a 1 on 1 scoring situation he is nowhere CLOSE to Kobe. Fukking Alex Caruso gave him ALL SORTS of trouble that last series the Nuggets lost. You think Caruso does that to Kobe? You think he keeps Kobe from getting to his sweet spots???

:oldlol:

Nice try 3tard but this is why you can't arrive at conclusions looking at graphs and charts.

[RRR3]

Jokic just averaged ~30 on close to league best efficiency but sure somehow he couldn’t do 35 if he was more aggressive. I’m not sure if you watch Jokic play but he can also score from anywhere on the floor.

[warriorfan]

Only gay nerds try to fade kobe

[SouBeachTalents]

Only gay nerds try to fade kobe
Like ones that claim Bosh was better than him.

[warriorfan]

Post above is a gay nerd lebron stan….and what do you know he tried to fade Kobe.


Literally make note of everyone who fades kobe. It’s always gay nerds.


Always.

[1987_Lakers]

Like ones that claim Bosh was better than him.

:oldlol:

[tontoz]

LOL

In business, the goal is to make money. In sports, the goal is to win.

You can choose to be more "efficient" or you can choose to make more money. You can choose to be more "efficient" or you can play to win.

No matter what ridiculous fukking arguments you guys come up with to shit on Bean, for all of your retarded tabulations and calculations, his style of play and approach to the game led to winning basketball. Five rangz.

:facepalm

Businesses don't have a salary cap. Businesses don't have revenue sharing with their competition.

If Team A has worse shooting efficiency than Team B the only way Team A can win the game is to have more possessions (more rebounds/fewer turnovers). That is just a statistical fact.

[warriorfan]

:oldlol:

^

Case in point

[1987_Lakers]

^

Case in point

meltdown

[tontoz]

Explain to us how Joker is better at SCORING then Kobe without leaning on made up advanced statistics.

Kobe who could score literally ANYWHERE from the floor and could create something out of nothing from ANY situation.


Jokic shoots better than Kobe from everywhere.

Career in the playoffs:

Jokic 27.4 ppg, 38.8% on 3s, 56.5% on 2s.

Kobe 25.6 ppg, 33.1% on 3s, 47.6% on 2s.

:pimp:

[Baller234]

Jokic just averaged ~30 on close to league best efficiency but sure somehow he couldn’t do 35 if he was more aggressive. I’m not sure if you watch Jokic play but he can also score from anywhere on the floor.

Then how come Alex Caruso was giving him fits??? How come he only attempted NINE shots in a win or go home game??? :oldlol:

That Thunder team was beatable that series. Denver had multiple chances. Yea Yolk had some really good games that series but he also had BAD games, especially down the stretch. LOTS of turnovers, LOTS of sloppy pay, LOTS of passivity. He almost looked WORN OUT sometimes... and it was a second round series!! There are times he puts ZERO effort on defense!!

At least when Kobe fails it's because he's bricking, but he's GOING to get his shots off. He's GOING to try and win the game. You CAN'T stop him.

Yolk looked VERY stoppable that series!

But he's a better scorer??? :oldlol: :oldlol:

[RRR3]

Then how come Alex Caruso was giving him fits??? How come he only attempted NINE shots in a win or go home game??? :oldlol:

That Thunder team was beatable that series. Denver had multiple chances. Yea Yolk had some really good games that series but he also had BAD games, especially down the stretch. LOTS of turnovers, LOTS of sloppy pay, LOTS of passivity. He almost looked WORN OUT sometimes... and it was a second round series!! There are times he puts ZERO effort on defense!!

At least when Kobe fails it's because he's bricking, but he's GOING to get his shots off. He's GOING to try and win the game. You CAN'T stop him.

Yolk looked VERY stoppable that series!

But he's a better scorer??? :oldlol: :oldlol:
Jokic doesn’t force up shots when he doesn’t have a good look. He could obviously chuck if he wanted to but that’s not his game. Again he averaged 30 on insane efficiency and like tontoz said he scores better than Kobe in the playoffs.

[warriorfan]

meltdown

your life is one big kobe bryant meltdown

lol

[RRR3]

Jokic shoots better than Kobe from everywhere.

Career in the playoffs:

Jokic 27.4 ppg, 38.8% on 3s, 56.5% on 2s.

Kobe 25.6 ppg, 33.1% on 3s, 47.6% on 2s.

:pimp:
But Kobe was better at “getting his shot off”, whatever that means.

[1987_Lakers]

your life is one big kobe bryant meltdown

lol

Oh wow, you are really mad. :oldlol:

[warriorfan]

Jokic shoots better than Kobe from everywhere.

Career in the playoffs:

Jokic 27.4 ppg, 38.8% on 3s, 56.5% on 2s.

Kobe 25.6 ppg, 33.1% on 3s, 47.6% on 2s.

:pimp:

At this point comparing early 2000 basketball to today’s game is apples to oranges.

[warriorfan]

Oh wow, you are really mad. :oldlol:

You are an odd little man

[1987_Lakers]

https://media.tenor.com/FvMUpGoMuaYAAAAM/mad-face.gif

:lol

[tontoz]

At this point comparing early 2000 basketball to today’s game is apples to oranges.

The problem is that even relative to their competition Jokic shoots far better than Kobe. Kobe's scoring efficiency wasnt good even relative to his peers.

[Baller234]

:facepalm

Businesses don't have a salary cap. Businesses don't have revenue sharing with their competition.

If Team A has worse shooting efficiency than Team B the only way Team A can win the game is to have more possessions (more rebounds/fewer turnovers). That is just a statistical fact.

More possessions, more VOLUME.

- Player A goes 10/25 and scores 25 (40%)
- Player B goes 8/12 and scores 18 (67%)

Player B is more EFFICIENT, but Player A still had the bigger impact on the game. Especially if that player has the ability to make tough shots over teammates who couldn’t generate those same looks.

Also, a player who can make shots against tough defense has value BEYOND efficiency. A superstar scorer can warp the defense drawing double teams, opening up teammates.

A player that can score LATE in games, even at mid efficiency overall, is FAR more valuable than an efficient scorer who disappears in key moments. :oldlol:

FIVE. F*CKING. RANGZ.

[Baller234]

At this point comparing early 2000 basketball to today’s game is apples to oranges.

These fukking nerds not only rely on stats and equations to formulate opinion on modern ball, they use it compare players ACROSS eras knowing full well the environments aren't even close to being the same.

This is what happens when nerds who could never hoop take it upon themselves to dictate the narrative. Too smart for their own good.

Especially 3tard, he doesn't even have to watch the games. He's really missing his calling as an NBA scout.

[Baller234]

But Kobe was better at “getting his shot off”, whatever that means.

If you don't know what that means then you should stop watching hoops and stick to playing videogames.

:oldlol:

[Baller234]

Jokic doesn’t force up shots when he doesn’t have a good look. He could obviously chuck if he wanted to but that’s not his game. Again he averaged 30 on insane efficiency and like tontoz said he scores better than Kobe in the playoffs.

Caruso is half his size!!

He couldn't generate a clean look???

:oldlol:

[RRR3]

More possessions, more VOLUME.

- Player A goes 10/25 and scores 25 (40%)
- Player B goes 8/12 and scores 18 (67%)

Player B is more EFFICIENT, but Player A still had the bigger impact on the game. Especially if that player has the ability to make tough shots over teammates who couldn’t generate those same looks.

Also, a player who can make shots against tough defense has value BEYOND efficiency. A superstar scorer can warp the defense drawing double teams, opening up teammates.

A player that can score LATE in games, even at mid efficiency overall, is FAR more valuable than an efficient scorer who disappears in key moments. :oldlol:

FIVE. F*CKING. RANGZ.
25 points on 25 shots is an objectively shit game scoring wise. Like genuinely awful. Crazy you don’t know this.

[tontoz]

More possessions, more VOLUME.

- Player A goes 10/25 and scores 25 (40%)
- Player B goes 8/12 and scores 18 (67%)

Player B is more EFFICIENT, but Player A still had the bigger impact on the game. Especially if that player has the ability to make tough shots over teammates who couldn’t generate those same looks.

Also, a player who can make shots against tough defense has value BEYOND efficiency. A superstar scorer can warp the defense drawing double teams, opening up teammates.

A player that can score LATE in games, even at mid efficiency overall, is FAR more valuable than an efficient scorer who disappears in key moments. :oldlol:




FIVE. F*CKING. RANGZ.


You are right in one sense, missing 15 shots does have a bigger impact on the game than missing 4 shots. :lol


Jokic averages 27 ppg in the playoffs for his career. Lets not pretend we are comparing Kobe to Tyson Chandler.

The Lakers have 11 rings without Kobe. How many rings to the Nuggets have without Jokic? It is a lot easier to win rings with a storied franchise that has Jerry Buss as the owner and Jerry West as the GM.

[RRR3]

You are right in one sense, missing 15 shots does have a bigger impact on the game than missing 4 shots. :lol
I can’t believe he seriously tried to argue 25 points on 25 shots is valuable scoring.

[tpols]

Only gay nerds try to fade kobe

Big facts.

But they know not what they do.

[tpols]

A player that can score LATE in games, even at mid efficiency overall, is FAR more valuable than an efficient scorer who disappears in key moments


I dont typically agree with Baller, but this is true. Its the difference between in the flow and takeover scoring. Geeks like southbeach, rrr3 and 1987 dont get it but there's a huge difference. Timing is everything.

[j3lademaster]

I can’t believe he seriously tried to argue 25 points on 25 shots is valuable scoring.

It can be, under the right context, but you're probably looking at a losing battle if it's warranted. A scorer like Kobe or Lebron(2015 finals as an example) need to continue shooting to keep the pressure on the defense.

[j3lademaster]

I dont typically agree with Baller, but this is true. Its the difference between in the flow and takeover scoring. Geeks dont get it but there's a huge difference. Timing is everything.

This is honestly why I think Khris Middleton is hugely underrated, especially for the lack of flowers for the Milwaukee title run. He was the one hitting the clutch mid range shots in crunch time.

[tontoz]

I dont typically agree with Baller, but this is true. Its the difference between in the flow and takeover scoring. Geeks like southbeach, rrr3 and 1987 dont get it but there's a huge difference. Timing is everything.

Kobe actually shot worse late in games than he did the rest of the game. The mamba mentality didn't help the ball get in the basket.

[Baller234]

You are right in one sense, missing 15 shots does have a bigger impact on the game than missing 4 shots. :lol


Jokic averages 27 ppg in the playoffs for his career. Lets not pretend we are comparing Kobe to Tyson Chandler.

The Lakers have 11 rings without Kobe. How many rings to the Nuggets have without Jokic? It is a lot easier to win rings with a storied franchise that has Jerry Buss as the owner and Jerry West as the GM.

And yet the Lakers won in spite of it. :oldlol:

They had guys who could rebound. They had another guy in Gasol who could help take some of the pressure off. That is what teammates are for. You build a team around your best player. AND??? They were still a team that was going to live and die with Kobe's performance. Judging from the results I'd say he delivered more often than not.

If you wanna argue that shot selection was Kobe's flaw fine, but it's literally his only flaw. His ego. Other than that he was perfect. When you go onto win five rangz, maybe sometimes having an ego is justified. Lots of brilliant people throughout history had huge egos, it doesn't make them any less brilliant.

Kobe's only flaw is his ego. With Yolk it's a SKILL ISSUE. It's a DEFENSE ISSUE. It's a HELP I'M BEING LOCKED UP BY ALEX CARUSO ISSUE!!

[SouBeachTalents]

And yet the Lakers won in spite of it. :oldlol:

They had guys who could rebound. They had another guy in Gasol who could help take some of the pressure off. That is what teammates are for. You build a team around your best player. AND??? They were still a team that was going to live and die with Kobe's performance. Judging from the results I'd say he delivered more often than not.

If you wanna argue that shot selection was Kobe's flaw fine, but it's literally his only flaw. His ego. Other than that he was perfect. When you go onto win five rangz, maybe sometimes having an ego is justified. Lots of brilliant people throughout history had huge egos, it doesn't make them any less brilliant.

Kobe's only flaw is his ego. With Yolk it's a SKILL ISSUE. It's a DEFENSE ISSUE. It's a HELP I'M BEING LOCKED UP BY ALEX CARUSO ISSUE!!
He was never that good of a 3 point shooter, and Phil pointed out some pretty legitimate flaws on the defensive end.

[tpols]

This is honestly why I think Khris Middleton is hugely underrated, especially for the lack of flowers for the Milwaukee title run. He was the one hitting the clutch mid range shots in crunch time.

Yup.

And his numbers weren't eye popping but yea... Middleton is a forgotten hero. He always made the tough buckets when shit was close down the stretch of games. Its a contextual thing.

[RRR3]

He was never that good of a 3 point shooter, and Phil pointed out some pretty legitimate flaws on the defensive end.
RAPM actually rates Kobe as a genuinely miserable defender. Not that I think RAPM is perfect but it’s interesting.

[tontoz]

He was never that good of a 3 point shooter, and Phil pointed out some pretty legitimate flaws on the defensive end.


33.1% from 3 for his career is just lame. It wasn't like he rarely shot them either.

[tpols]

Kobe actually shot worse late in games than he did the rest of the game. The mamba mentality didn't help the ball get in the basket.

Youre on that list as well pal.

Same guy who act like Isiah Thomas didn't show out when it mattered most. I'm a stat guy like you too but you have to keep it contextual. There are certain moments that matter more than others.

[tontoz]

Caruso "shutting down" Jokic.


https://youtu.be/sLEmUbnGBrk?si=HhPb0lYmluaIQ1wP

[tontoz]

Youre on that list as well pal.

Same guy who act like Isiah Thomas didn't show out when it mattered most. I'm a stat guy like you too but you have to keep it contextual. There are certain moments that matter more than others.


Isiah routinely got bailed out by his teammates. He would go 6-18 but they would win with great defense and someone else picking up the scoring.

[Tavr]

RAPM actually rates Kobe as a genuinely miserable defender. Not that I think RAPM is perfect but it’s interesting.

During Kobe's prime, or '01-10, he was a plus overall in DRAPM. I think he was only a negative on that end in 2004, 2005 and 2006. Those years are interesting though because he was still in his physical prime. It also corroborates what Phil claimed about Kobe's defense (gambling and only giving max effort vs marquee matchups). From 2007-2010 though Kobe never had a negative season on defense.

Source: https://basketball-analytics.gitlab.io/rapm-data/

[RRR3]

During Kobe's prime, or '01-10, he was a plus overall in DRAPM. I think he was only a negative on that end in 2004, 2005 and 2006. Those years are interesting though because he was still in his physical prime. It also corroborates what Phil claimed about Kobe's defense (gambling and only giving max effort vs marquee matchups). From 2007-2010 though Kobe never had a negative season on defense.

Source: https://basketball-analytics.gitlab.io/rapm-data/
Idk what to say because this RAPM data says very different. Not sure which to believe :lol


https://xrapm.com/table_pages/RAPM_29y.html

[Baller234]

He was never that good of a 3 point shooter, and Phil pointed out some pretty legitimate flaws on the defensive end.

Flaws in his defense but he's 12x all defense?? :oldlol:

Never a great 3 pt shooter?? :oldlol:

You're aware he set the in-game record back in 2003 right? A record that held for THIRTEEN years and wasn't surpassed until the most talented shooter in HISTORY came around??

My nikka LOG OFF.

:oldlol: :oldlol: :oldlol:

[SouBeachTalents]

Flaws in his defense but he's 12x all defense?? :oldlol:

Never a great 3 pt shooter?? :oldlol:

You're aware he set the in-game record back in 2003 right? A record that held for THIRTEEN years and wasn't surpassed until the most talented shooter in HISTORY came around??

My nikka LOG OFF.

:oldlol: :oldlol:
Even his biggest supporters would agree the majority of those All-Defensive selections were bullshit, dude was making the All-Defensive First Team in 2011 :oldlol:

And are we seriously using a ONE game sample size to supersede a 20 year careers worth of evidence? That's just a terribly shitty rebuttal lol, you can do better than that.

[Tavr]

Idk what to say because this RAPM data says very different. Not sure which to believe :lol


https://xrapm.com/table_pages/RAPM_29y.html

xRAPM isnt terrible although its a little closer to "RPM" because the box-score is actually included. RAPM is pure regression without the box-score, which I'm sure you know.

I do like using xRAPM for past players, but always with a 3-4 year sample.

Beyond that? I'm more of an eye test type of fan. Nothing beats watching and breaking down film.

[Baller234]

Even his biggest supporters would agree the majority of those All-Defensive selections were bullshit, dude was making the All-Defensive First Team in 2011 :oldlol:

And are we seriously using a ONE game sample size to supersede a 20 year careers worth of evidence? That's just a terribly shitty rebuttal lol, you can do better than that.

I'd say Kobe was a pretty good three point shooter. :oldlol:

It's amazing. Here you guys are claiming the guy can't shoot, he's a chucker, he's inefficient, but somehow his teams managed to win so often in spite of it. Like I said take the Shaq years out of it. Those teams lived and died with Kobe. And yes sometimes Gasol... AND???

When Kobe is your best player and your best scorer, and you have at least one other guy offensively who could take some of the pressure off, your team is in a VERY good spot to contend.

[Tavr]

Even his biggest supporters would agree the majority of those All-Defensive selections were bullshit, dude was making the All-Defensive First Team in 2011 :oldlol:

And are we seriously using a ONE game sample size to supersede a 20 year careers worth of evidence? That's just a terribly shitty rebuttal lol, you can do better than that.

The majority? That's kind of a reach. :lol I'd say quite a few though, particularly past 2010.

[RRR3]

xRAPM isnt terrible although its a little closer to "RPM" because the box-score is actually included. RAPM is pure regression without the box-score, which I'm sure you know.

I do like using xRAPM for past players, but always with a 3-4 year sample.

Beyond that? I'm more of an eye test type of fan. Nothing beats watching and breaking down film.
I guess I was just confused because they labeled that as RAPM in the title and not xRAPM.

[RRR3]

I'd say Kobe was a pretty good three point shooter. :oldlol:

It's amazing. Here you guys are claiming the guy can't shoot, he's a chucker, he's inefficient, but somehow his teams managed to win so often in spite of it. Like I said take the Shaq years out of it. Those teams lived and died with Kobe. And yes sometimes Gasol... AND???

When Kobe is your best player and your best scorer, and you have at least one other guy offensively who could take some of the pressure off, your team is in a VERY good spot to contend.
33% is not a good percentage from 3.

[SouBeachTalents]

I'd say Kobe was a pretty good three point shooter. :oldlol:

It's amazing. Here you guys are claiming the guy can't shoot, he's a chucker, he's inefficient, but somehow his teams managed to win so often in spite of it. Like I said take the Shaq years out of it. Those teams lived and died with Kobe. And yes sometimes Gasol... AND???

When Kobe is your best player and your best scorer, and you have at least one other guy offensively who could take some of the pressure off, your team is in a VERY good spot to contend.
I don't think a single person here has claimed Kobe wasn't an ATG player, he just gets really overrated, esp in regards to his clutch reputation.

[tontoz]

I'd say Kobe was a pretty good three point shooter. :oldlol:




Based on what? He shot 32.9% from 3 in the regular season, 33.1% in the playoffs. How can that be called good?

[Overdrive]

But Kobe was better at “getting his shot off”, whatever that means.

Ironically Jokic is way better at getting his shot off. Their only argument is Caruso while Kobe had stinker games and series against a lot of forgotten guards during his career.


I dont typically agree with Baller, but this is true. Its the difference between in the flow and takeover scoring. Geeks like southbeach, rrr3 and 1987 dont get it but there's a huge difference. Timing is everything.

Kobe's takeover scoring regularly disrupted his team's offense to the point they lost the game or series and killed chemistry. Don't know how this can be viewed as a positive trait when it actually alienated alot of teammates.



Kobe who could score literally ANYWHERE from the floor and could create something out of nothing from ANY situation. Kobe who could catch the ball and execute a PERFECT turnaround jumper giving himself a clear look without even dribbling. Kobe who could beat you off the dribble and beat you a hundred different ways. EVERY fukking player that guarded Kobe said he was the toughest player they ever had to guard.


Who cares for aesthetics when Jokic can get any shot of at any spot of the floor and has an even better post game than Kobe? It simply doesn't matter if Kobe's catch n shoot fader from 20 ft out looks better than Jokic's shot when he made like 20-something % of these shots? The objective of the game isn't missing good looking shots.

And no, not every player alot stated that T-Mac was harder to guard.

[tpols]

33.1% is not a good percentage from 3.

Wild bail out shots will decrease %. Kobe was never shy about it but if he wanted to he could have hot potatoe'd for an increase.

[Baller234]

I don't think a single person here has claimed Kobe wasn't an ATG player, he just gets really overrated, esp in regards to his clutch reputation.

And yet I already provided a clutch situation in which he and only was uniquely equipped to navigate and outperforms 99.99999% in that exact same scenario.

Now go show me a clutch moment from your favorite player that Kobe couldn't replicate.

[warriorfan]

RAPM actually rates Kobe as a genuinely miserable defender. Not that I think RAPM is perfect but it’s interesting.

So does Klay Thompson but you nerds love proclaiming him as some lock down defender. Lol

[tpols]

So does Klay Thompson but you nerds love proclaiming him as some lock down defender. Lol

Southbeach took Klay over Michael Jordan on his all time team. Its crazy out here.

[SouBeachTalents]

Southbeach took Klay over Michael Jordan on his all time team. Its crazy out here.
When I already have Steph/Kawhi/Bird/Hakeem, I don't need Jordan.

You just wouldn't get it bro :(

[SouBeachTalents]

Also, tpols once claimed Kidd was better than LeBron and was being genuinely serious about it, so do with that what you will

[warriorfan]

Southbeach took Klay over Michael Jordan on his all time team. Its crazy out here.

:roll: :roll:

[Tavr]

Southbeach took Klay over Michael Jordan on his all time team. Its crazy out here.

This forum is great :oldlol:

[tontoz]

Wild bail out shots will decrease %. Kobe was never shy about it but if he wanted to he could have hot potatoe'd for an increase.


Jokic takes plenty of those shots too. So do the number one options on most teams. That is not something unique to Kobe.

In fact Jokic is well known for making a lot of those crazy shots, including one in AD's face in the playoffs.

He frequently takes shots from past half court.

[tpols]

:roll: :roll:

Bro I'm not even being disingenuous. He backed it up with an argument. It wasnt a troll ting.

[tontoz]

https://youtu.be/C2jl51sb038?si=7FwgRm3OSQFCooyc


https://youtu.be/a6sch_MTCbw?si=sI1vYfu_NfIrZXGp

[sdot_thadon]

And yet I already provided a clutch situation in which he and only was uniquely equipped to navigate and outperforms 99.99999% in that exact same scenario.

Now go show me a clutch moment from your favorite player that Kobe couldn't replicate.
Well you dont really need a play from anyone else. No doubt Kobe was clutch, it was probably over glorified tho. All you need is the fact that he wasn't as clutch when it mattered. The game winners disappear in the postseason. The big scoring games disappear in elimination games. Where did they go?


Wild bail out shots will decrease %. Kobe was never shy about it but if he wanted to he could have hot potatoe'd for an increase.
Yeah and thats everyone else's fault in nba history that he chose to take bad shots more often. Thats a flaw in his game. THE flaw in his game imo.


Ironically Jokic is way better at getting his shot off. Their only argument is Caruso while Kobe had stinker games and series against a lot of forgotten guards during his career.



Kobe's takeover scoring regularly disrupted his team's offense to the point they lost the game or series and killed chemistry. Don't know how this can be viewed as a positive trait when it actually alienated alot of teammates.



Who cares for aesthetics when Jokic can get any shot of at any spot of the floor and has an even better post game than Kobe? It simply doesn't matter if Kobe's catch n shoot fader from 20 ft out looks better than Jokic's shot when he made like 20-something % of these shots? The objective of the game isn't missing good looking shots.

And no, not every player alot stated that T-Mac was harder to guard.
Ive had friends and family members that were Kobe stans so up close and in person, Kobe stans for the most part, prefer visuals over substance. And im not knocking them they just for the most part prefer a fadeawy over 3 guys when 2 teammates are wide open than a pass to the open man or a guaranteed bucket. Its a taste thing.

[Overdrive]

Ive had friends and family members that were Kobe stans so up close and in person, Kobe stans for the most part, prefer visuals over substance. And im not knocking them they just for the most part prefer a fadeawy over 3 guys when 2 teammates are wide open than a pass to the open man or a guaranteed bucket. Its a taste thing.

After 30 years it still upsets me playing pick up with such people. I honestly don't how this can be seen as good basketball. Sure a guy like Kobe scores better on half bad shots at a high volume than some role player, but for most of his career he had some decent teammates who could finish themselves, but Kobestans act like he had to hpost up ill advised shots, because Pau, Odom or even Shaq were not good enough to pass the ball to in tight situations.

[Baller234]

Well you dont really need a play from anyone else. No doubt Kobe was clutch, it was probably over glorified tho. All you need is the fact that he wasn't as clutch when it mattered. The game winners disappear in the postseason. The big scoring games disappear in elimination games. Where did they go?


Yeah and thats everyone else's fault in nba history that he chose to take bad shots more often. Thats a flaw in his game. THE flaw in his game imo.


Ive had friends and family members that were Kobe stans so up close and in person, Kobe stans for the most part, prefer visuals over substance. And im not knocking them they just for the most part prefer a fadeawy over 3 guys when 2 teammates are wide open than a pass to the open man or a guaranteed bucket. Its a taste thing.

You mean like this visual??? :oldlol:

https://d1l5jyrrh5eluf.cloudfront.net/wp-content/uploads/2015/12/kobe-bryant.jpg

Is five rangz enough "substance" for you!?!?

:oldlol:

[RRR3]

Bawler ignoring all the posts that made him look like an idiot as usual

[Baller234]

Bawler ignoring all the posts that made him look like an idiot as usual

Says the guy who argued Joker is a better scorer than Kobe. :oldlol:

The guy who defers to Murray 50% of the time in crunch time. :oldlol:

If Joker has to defer to Murray in certain situations, what do you think happens if he's playing with KOBE. Who do you think is getting the ball more often than not?? :oldlol:

Game on the line, who are they drawing up a play for?? :oldlol:

But sure Yolk is a better at putting the ball in the hoop than Kobe. :oldlol:

Not surprised someone that can't tell the difference between a c0ck and a c*nt has trouble accepting reality when it's staring him square in the face.

[RRR3]

Jokic scores more than Kobe in the playoffs. And on much better efficiency. The facts say he’s better putting the ball in the hoop :(

[Baller234]

Jokic scores more than Kobe in the playoffs. And on much better efficiency. The facts say he’s better putting the ball in the hoop :(

He's better at putting the ball in the hoop but he has to defer to JAMAL MURRAY!?!? :oldlol: :oldlol: :oldlol:

[RRR3]

He's better at putting the ball in the hoop but he has to defer to JAMAL MURRAY!?!? :oldlol: :oldlol: :oldlol:
How come Kobe scores less in the playoffs than Jokic?

[Baller234]

How come Kobe scores less in the playoffs than Jokic?

Because teams were averaging like 96ppg during the 2000's and now they're averaging 113ppg. :oldlol:

Log off. :oldlol:

[RRR3]

Because teams were averaging like 96ppg during the 2000's and now they're averaging 113ppg. :oldlol:

Log off. :oldlol:
Except you can adjust for pace and Jokic still scores more

Playoffs Points per 100 possessions:

Jokic: 36.5
Kobe: 34.7















:(

[Baller234]

Actually no dipshit, because teams score more points per possession now.

2000's - Teams averaged 102.9 per 100 possessions
2020's - Teams average 115 per 100 possessions

The higher efficiency is the result of spacing, volume threes and more offensive friendly rules. Not because Yolk is a better flat out scorer than Kobe.

:oldlol:

[RRR3]

Actually no dipshit, because teams score more points per possession now.

2000's - Teams averaged 102.9 per 100 possessions
2020's - Teams average 115 per 100 possessions

The higher efficiency is the result of spacing, volume threes and more offensive friendly rules. Not because Yolk is a better flat out scorer than Kobe.

:oldlol:
Teams have got better at offense because they play more intelligently now. Hence why they score better. Same reason Jokic scores better than Kobe, he plays more intelligently.

It would be truly funny to see an old school team try to keep up with the modern NBA, they'd be terrible with the lack of 3s they took. You don't get this though.

[tontoz]

Because teams were averaging like 96ppg during the 2000's and now they're averaging 113ppg. :oldlol:

Log off. :oldlol:


Even if we add 15% to Kobe's career 25.2 ppg in the playoffs that puts him at 29 ppg which is only 1.6 more than Jokic on far worse shooting.

*yawn*

[SouBeachTalents]

Even if we add 15% to Kobe's career 25.2 ppg in the playoffs that puts him at 29 ppg which is only 1.6 more than Jokic on far worse shooting.

*yawn*
5 rangz

[RRR3]

5 rangz
Deferring to Jamal Murray.

[tontoz]

For the records Murray's highest scoring playoff run was 26.50 ppg which doesn't even equal the career playoff average for Jokic.

[RRR3]

For the records Murray's highest scoring playoff run was 26.50 ppg which doesn't even equal the career playoff average for Jokic.
Dude is trying to talk up Jamal Murray when Kobe had peak Shaq :lol

And I like Murray but Pau Gasol was also better than him. There is zero evidence to support Kobe would win a ring with the roster Jokic won with.

[Baller234]

Dude is trying to talk up Jamal Murray when Kobe had peak Shaq :lol

And I like Murray but Pau Gasol was also better than him. There is zero evidence to support Kobe would win a ring with the roster Jokic won with.

No you fukking nimrod. Jamal Murray is not even in the same universe as the guys we are talking about. That is the whole point.

Yolk does not win a championship if he couldn't lean on Murray in crunch time. Both in the playoffs and in the finals, there are times when Murray has been the guy for them in crunch time. Sometimes Yolk just handed off the ball and stood back. The only reason he does this is because Murray can close the deal in ways Yolk can't. :oldlol: :oldlol:

Now compare Murray to Kobe. :oldlol: :oldlol:

3tard your bball IQ is about as high your real IQ, a.k.a. single digits.

[RRR3]

Jokic being willing to pass the ball in crunch time is a bad thing apparently. He should have just chucked up crazy shots over double teams.

[tontoz]

No you fukking nimrod. Jamal Murray is not even in the same universe as the guys we are talking about. That is the whole point.

Yolk does not win a championship if he couldn't lean on Murray in crunch time. Both in the playoffs and in the finals, there are times when Murray has been the guy for them in crunch time. Sometimes Yolk just handed off the ball and stood back. The only reason he does this is because Murray can close the deal in ways Yolk can't. :oldlol: :oldlol:

Now compare Murray to Kobe. :oldlol: :oldlol:

3tard your bball IQ is about as high your real IQ, a.k.a. single digits.



Wrong as usual. WHEN MURRAY WAS HOT, Jokic would feed him. When Murray wasn't, then Jokic would step up his scoring.

Jokic has always been the offensive engine on that team both in terms of scoring and playmaking. Against OKC in the playoffs MPJ was playing with one arm and Murray averaged only 20.7 ppg with Kobe level efficiency but the series still went 7 games.

[Baller234]

Jokic being willing to pass the ball in crunch time is a bad thing apparently. He should have just chucked up crazy shots over double teams.

So Yolk is a best scorer but he needs MURRAY to score and win the game??? The team has to play through MURRAY and not Yolk???

:oldlol:

Kobe had Gasol but he didn't ever have to DEFER to him. HE was the X-factor down the stretch. Gasol came up big on more than one occasion sure but he was Plan B.

:oldlol:

Murray was THE GUY for Denver in some of those games. The guy the team PLAYED through.

Why would they have to play through Murray if Yolk is this unstoppable scorer who's better than Kobe!?!? Lmao you think Kobe is ever taking a backseat to someone who's CLEARLY inferior to him in terms of skill!?!?

:oldlol:

[Baller234]

Wrong as usual. WHEN MURRAY WAS HOT, Jokic would feed him. When Murray wasn't, then Jokic would step up his scoring.

Jokic has always been the offensive engine on that team both in terms of scoring and playmaking. Against OKC in the playoffs MPJ was playing with one arm and Murray averaged only 20.7 ppg with Kobe level efficiency but the series still went 7 games.

FOH, no he was not "feeding" him. I'm not talking about setting up open jumpers.

I'm talking about closing minutes, game on the line... and the team is playing THROUGH Murray. Yolk watches.

[warriorfan]

You mean like this visual??? :oldlol:

https://d1l5jyrrh5eluf.cloudfront.net/wp-content/uploads/2015/12/kobe-bryant.jpg

Is five rangz enough "substance" for you!?!?

:oldlol:

I already know the nerds next move.

They are gonna hype up pau gasol and andrew bynum. lmao