I understand a losing Finals record with 1 team... But 3 different teams?? gtfo

[3ba11]

And the only team that he had a winning Finals record is when he was 2nd leading scorer on his own team for that run.

So when he's 1st option, the "bron-ball" brand of ball can't compete on the championship level.

Specifically, 22-33 against Finals teams is a massive sample that shows Lebron's "low chemistry" skillset of turning everyone into spot-up shooter doesn't compete well on the championship level.

[Full Court]

You know what's even worse? In '22 he was the preseason favorite to win the west, and he didn't even make it to the play in. :lol

[1987_Lakers]

MJ was swept twice by the same team.

Then lost 3 years in a row to a team without a superstar.

[John8204]

He also could have returned and played for any team in the league, took the #1 Draft Pick, and the best Free Agent and couldn't even make the playoffs.

Only player in NBA history to have been a starter on three championship teams.

[TheBranStan]

https://media4.giphy.com/media/v1.Y2lkPTc5MGI3NjExNmhlNTIyYjkyYXgyZTY5OWp6dzhqYnc yaHg3ZHpoeW52cW82Zm1obCZlcD12MV9pbnRlcm5hbF9naWZfY nlfaWQmY3Q9Zw/HcFxAcCRKW8ow/giphy.gif

[SouBeachTalents]

2-2 & 1-0 are not losing records. After OP finally gets treatment for his mental illness, he needs to take a remedial math class.

[tpols]

2-2 & 1-0 are not losing records. After OP finally gets treatment for his mental illness, he needs to take a remedial math class.

Can't discount the ass whoopings. 2014 and 2018 are still the biggest margins of defeat all time in NBA Finals history.

I could give pass for 2018. 2014? Hell no.

[sdot_thadon]

Can't discount the ass whoopings. 2014 and 2018 are still the biggest margins of defeat all time in NBA Finals history.

I could give pass for 2018. 2014? Hell no.
You shouldn't need any sort of pass to admit something as simple as 2-2 not being a losing records. Youre too old for that man.



2-2 & 1-0 are not losing records. After OP finally gets treatment for his mental illness, he needs to take a remedial math class.

I doubt he passed any standardized test required to get through school. The boy cant round, add, subtract, compare......or even copy numbers with any sort of accuracy.

[tpols]

You shouldn't need any sort of pass to admit something as simple as 2-2 not being a losing records. Youre too old for that man.




I doubt he passed any standardized test required to get through school. The boy cant round, add, subtract, compare......or even copy numbers with any sort of accuracy.

Hes 22-33 in the Finals with the two biggest margins of defeat in history. Youre sugarcoating it hardcore the way you present your argument. The fact he did that while team hopping around the league means hes nowhere near MJ.

[Tavr]

Losing record with 3 teams? Do you mean finals series or the total losses in general?

0-1 with Cleveland first time around
2-2 with Miami
1-3 with Cleveland second go around

[k0kakw0rld]

And the only team that he had a winning Finals record is when he was 2nd leading scorer on his own team for that run.

So when he's 1st option, the "bron-ball" brand of ball can't compete on the championship level.

Specifically, 22-33 against Finals teams is a massive sample that shows Lebron's "low chemistry" skillset of turning everyone into spot-up shooter doesn't compete well on the championship level.
Different thread, same topic already discussed. What is your point? The same dude won with 3 different franchises.

https://i.postimg.cc/HLbK5Tx7/we-dont-care.gif (https://postimages.org/)

[Full Court]

Different thread, same topic already discussed. What is your point? The same dude won with 3 different franchises.

https://i.postimg.cc/HLbK5Tx7/we-dont-care.gif (https://postimages.org/)

You guys act like that's something that's praiseworthy. Ring shopping and then jumping ship as soon as you hit adversity is a huge blemish on his career. There's a reason why the vast majority never bought the media narrative shoved down everyone's throat for the last two decades. The fact of the matter is he has underperformed expectations for the majority of his career. In fact, I can't think of a more underachieving star in the history of the sport. The only one that comes close is probably Durant.

[1987_Lakers]

Different thread, same topic already discussed. What is your point? The same dude won with 3 different franchises.

https://i.postimg.cc/HLbK5Tx7/we-dont-care.gif (https://postimages.org/)

:roll:

[1987_Lakers]

You guys act like that's something that's praiseworthy. Ring shopping and then jumping ship as soon as you hit adversity is a huge blemish on his career. There's a reason why the vast majority never bought the media narrative shoved down everyone's throat for the last two decades. The fact of the matter is he has underperformed expectations for the majority of his career. In fact, I can't think of a more underachieving star in the history of the sport. The only one that comes close is probably Durant.

That would be Oscar Robinson or Bob Cousey.

[sdot_thadon]

Hes 22-33 in the Finals with the two biggest margins of defeat in history. Youre sugarcoating it hardcore the way you present your argument. The fact he did that while team hopping around the league means hes nowhere near MJ.

So what you did here was admit you had no reply for what you quoted 2 times in a row and moved the goalposts to something that would allow you to continue your desired direction? 2-2 isnt a losing record, nor is 1-0. Thats what you quoted and didn't address. And id imagine eventually you guys would get a clue. You debate Mj and Lebron way too often to truly believe "he's nowhere close" you prove he is daily here. Keep up the good work!

[sdot_thadon]

You guys act like that's something that's praiseworthy. Ring shopping and then jumping ship as soon as you hit adversity is a huge blemish on his career. There's a reason why the vast majority never bought the media narrative shoved down everyone's throat for the last two decades. The fact of the matter is he has underperformed expectations for the majority of his career. In fact, I can't think of a more underachieving star in the history of the sport. The only one that comes close is probably Durant.

And you think navigating free agency the way you choose isnt ok. Time to get with the times. Tell me this: if its truly in your words "ring shopping" why doesn't it seem to work for anyone else? Free agency team building has failed a ton more times than its succeeded. Its almost as if you still have to.....you know do the effing work to win. Wow. What a concept.

[3ba11]

The same dude won with 3 different franchises.






Every time Lebron forms a new super-team but fails to 3-peat, win 70, or have a dynasty, he proves that he can't reach MJ's level.. If he can't reach MJ's level no matter who we put around him, then he's objectively inferior to MJ (and others)... It isn't a GOOD thing when Lebron fails to 3-peat or even win 2 titles with a team because it proves he can't reach Jordan's level - so you're looking at it backwards.

Furthermore, 150+ players in history would go 1 for 6 with AD, and then 1 for 4 with Kyrie/Love, and basically 1 for 4 with Wade (except the Allen miracle)... Lebron drastically underachieved at every stop ..

Statistical proof of Lebron underachieving expectation is when he fell from preseason favorite to underdog or loser for 6 straight years (11' to 16'), except the Allen miracle - these 6 years were sandwiched between 3 upset losses from 09-11' and 1st Round upset losses with AD and Luka (and several lottery seasons).

Finally, if Magic and Bird teamed up, neither gets full credit for the ring, just like Kobe doesn't get full credit for his Shaq rings or Kareem/Magic's rings - they're all diluted rings by virtue of teaming up with opposing franchise players, rather than winning with "normal" rosters of 1 franchise player.. However, at least Kobe, Shaq, Magic and Kareem produced dynasties or 3-peats, while Lebron mostly lost at every stop and could barely win 50 games most of the time.

[sdot_thadon]

Every time Lebron forms a new super-team but fails to 3-peat, win 70, or have a dynasty, he proves that he can't reach MJ's level.. If he can't reach MJ's level no matter who we put around him, then he's objectively inferior to MJ (and others)... It isn't a GOOD thing when Lebron fails to 3-peat or even win 2 titles with a team because it proves he can't reach Jordan's level - so you're looking at it backwards.

Furthermore, 150+ players in history would go 1 for 6 with AD, and then 1 for 4 with Kyrie/Love, and basically 1 for 4 with Wade (except the Allen miracle)... Lebron drastically underachieved at every stop ..

Statistical proof of Lebron underachieving expectation is when he fell from preseason favorite to underdog or loser for 6 straight years (11' to 16'), except the Allen miracle - these 6 years were sandwiched between 3 upset losses from 09-11' and 1st Round upset losses with AD and Luka (and several lottery seasons).

Finally, if Magic and Bird teamed up, neither gets full credit for the ring, just like Kobe doesn't get full credit for his Shaq rings or Kareem/Magic's rings - they're all diluted rings by virtue of teaming up with opposing franchise players, rather than winning with "normal" rosters of 1 franchise player.. However, at least Kobe, Shaq, Magic and Kareem produced dynasties or 3-peats, while Lebron mostly lost at every stop and could barely win 50 games most of the time.

If only Lebron could have so much better help than his comp that he'd be favored to win every single year/finals of his prime, then you'd have a point. One guy in this debate enjoyed that advantage the whole run he won.

[3ba11]

If only Lebron could have so much better help than his comp that he'd be favored to win every single year/finals of his prime, then you'd have a point. One guy in this debate enjoyed that advantage the whole run he won.


The historical record shows that Lebron's teams are favored in the preseason on paper, but crap the bed in the regular season to fall to underdog - the fall to underdog can't be blamed on talent since the talent was favored on paper, so the issue is horrific chemistry (bron-ball)..

Heck, Lebron won 60 games once in 15 seasons with Wade, Bosh, Love, Kyrie, AD and Luka (6 franchise players, aka the most help ever) - this horrible regular season track record is why he's a perennial Finals underdog after starting as the preseason favorite... This is the definition of perennially underachieving expectations.

Hope that helps... And let me know if you need the specifics on the bad chemistry and underachieving of bron-ball, and how it's reflected statistically

Btw, oddsmakers hated Lebron in 2012 because he lost as the favorite for the 3 prior years... Accordingly, they made his veteran super-team an underdog to baby WestBrick.. It's a mass indictment that Lebron turns super-teams into perennial underdogs... Ultimately, his brand of ball can't compete on the championship level, aka lottery record vs Finals teams (22-33)

[sdot_thadon]

The historical record shows that Lebron's teams are favored in the preseason on paper, but crap the bed in the regular season to fall to underdog - the fall to underdog can't be blamed on talent since the talent was favored on paper, so the issue is horrific chemistry (bron-ball)..

Heck, Lebron won 60 games once in 15 seasons with Wade, Bosh, Love, Kyrie, AD and Luka (6 franchise players, aka the most help ever) - this horrible regular season track record is why he's a perennial Finals underdog after starting as the preseason favorite... This is the definition of perennially underachieving expectations.

Hope that helps... And let me know if you need the specifics on the bad chemistry and underachieving of bron-ball, and how it's reflected statistically

Btw, oddsmakers hated Lebron in 2012 because he lost as the favorite for the 3 prior years... Accordingly, they made his veteran super-team an underdog to baby WestBrick.. It's a mass indictment that Lebron turns super-teams into perennial underdogs... Ultimately, his brand of ball can't compete on the championship level, aka lottery record vs Finals teams (22-33)

Yeah because in retardo land where you apparently reside, its better to predict who will win the chip 9 or 10 months out when literally nobody has played a game let alone even started camp. Rather than predict which of the final 2 teams will win after said 9 months of play and data to reinforce trends and assess abilities. If that went over your head: you're an imbecile.

[3ba11]

Yeah because in retardo land where you apparently reside, its better to predict who will win the chip 9 or 10 months out when literally nobody has played a game let alone even started camp. Rather than predict which of the final 2 teams will win after said 9 months of play and data to reinforce trends and assess abilities. If that went over your head: you're an imbecile.


Indeed, everyone has high hopes for Lebron's glossy super-teams in the preseason, but once the ball is thrown up and the hoopin' starts, that's when everyone covers their eyes at what they see, aka weak, underwhelming bron-ball chemistry and a team that barely wins 50 games.

Again, Lebron won 60 games once in 15 seasons with Wade, Bosh, Love, Kyrie, AD and Luka (6 franchise players, aka the most help ever) - this horrible regular season track record is why he's a perennial Finals underdog after starting as the preseason favorite... This is the definition of perennially underachieving expectations.

[Full Court]

That would be Oscar Robinson or Bob Cousey.

Both of them together didn't have as many choke jobs as LeShrivel.

Maybe Tom Brady did though. :roll:

[sdot_thadon]

Indeed, everyone has high hopes for Lebron's glossy super-teams in the preseason, but once the ball is thrown up and the hoopin' starts, that's when everyone covers their eyes at what they see, aka weak, underwhelming bron-ball chemistry and a team that barely wins 50 games.

Again, Lebron won 60 games once in 15 seasons with Wade, Bosh, Love, Kyrie, AD and Luka (6 franchise players, aka the most help ever) - this horrible regular season track record is why he's a perennial Finals underdog after starting as the preseason favorite... This is the definition of perennially underachieving expectations.

Yeah because we all bet the house on a team 9 months ahead of time......:oldlol:

[3ba11]

Yeah because we all bet the house on a team 9 months ahead of time......:oldlol:


everyone has high hopes for Lebron's glossy super-teams in the preseason, but once the ball is thrown up and the hoopin' starts, that's when everyone covers their eyes at what they see, aka weak, underwhelming bron-ball chemistry and a team that barely wins 50 games.

Summary - Bron-ball is a horrible chemistry that underachievs favored talent by falling from preseason favorite to underdog or loser... Every year.

[Full Court]

If only Lebron could have so much better help than his comp that he'd be favored to win every single year/finals of his prime, then you'd have a point. One guy in this debate enjoyed that advantage the whole run he won.

Lebron has lost to underdogs over and over again. He's lost with stacked super teams. He's had more help than any superstar in the history of the sport. If you don't acknowledge that, you're just in denial.

[1987_Lakers]

Lebron has lost to underdogs over and over again. He's lost with stacked super teams. He's had more help than any superstar in the history of the sport. If you don't acknowledge that, you're just in denial.

LeBron was an underdog in the Finals 7 out of 10 times, still won 4 times. He lost with stacked teams because the teams he went up against were stacked, funny how this point always gets ignored. He played against the most stacked team in history in back to back years vs KD/Steph.

That's like giving Larry Bird shit for losing with "stacked super teams" because they lost to the showtime Lakers.

[3ba11]

That's like giving Larry Bird shit for losing with "stacked super teams" because they lost to the showtime Lakers.





No, it would be like Bird having a super-team of 3 franchise players, and then playing 2 Finals against a "normal" roster of 1 franchise player (Curry's Warriors) - then the normal roster catches up by signing another franchise player (KD).

So it's a knock that Lebron lost with a super-team just like it is for Bird - it's always a knock to lose with a super-team.. The difference is that Bird actually beat a super-team in 84', while Lebron is winless against super-teams.. secondly, bird ONLY lost to super-teams in the Finals, while Lebron lost to many non-super-teams in 2011, 2014, 2015, and 2007..

And I know you want to exonerate 07' and 15', but worst-ever play can't be excused - no one ever shot 35% with 6 TO's per game.. Meanwhile, Lebron's "Iverson" chucking and zero defense in 15' can't be ignored - 50% shooting and good defense easily beats the 1st timer Warriors.






LeBron was an underdog in the Finals 7 out of 10 times, still won 4 times. He lost with stacked teams because the teams he went up against were stacked, funny how this point always gets ignored. He played against the most stacked team in history in back to back years vs KD/Steph.





2012 HEAT -----> preseason favorite -----> Finals underdog
2014 HEAT -----> preseason favorite -----> Finals underdog
2015 CAVS -----> preseason favorite -----> Finals underdog
2016 CAVS -----> preseason favorite -----> Finals underdog


You can't underachieve with 54 wins as the preseason favorite, and then complain about being Finals underdog... :rolleyes:

Lebron is a perennial Finals underdog because he only won 60 games once in 15 seasons with Wade, Bosh, Love, Kyrie, AD and Luka.. That's 6 franchise players and therefore the most help ever - no one in history got to team up with 6 dudes that had their own team.. Since Lebron had the most help ever and the most preseason favorites ever, his consistent fall to Finals underdog isn't due to insufficient talent - it's due to inferior brand of ball and chemistry, aka bron-ball (turning everyone into spot-up shooter).. This inferior chemistry barely wins 50 games, regardless of cast, and has a lottery record against Finals teams (22-33).

[1987_Lakers]

What were the 1994 Bulls preseason odds without Jordan?

[3ba11]

What were the 1994 Bulls preseason odds without Jordan?


They went from 1st to 10th - it's a crap shoot after the first few spots - 5th to 20th sees the most variance

And not a single announcer all year said the Bulls were pursuing a 4-peat, or "defending" 3-oeat champs.. It's because it was a foregone conclusion that the Bulls could never win without MJ

[1987_Lakers]

Lakers were preseason favorites to win it all in 5 of 6 years ('99-'04) when they had Shaq-Kobe, they never achieved that.

When they lost in '99 and '03 to the Spurs when they were pre-season favorites, nobody gave them shit, the better team won. You are going off odds before any games are even played.

Nobody saw the 2015 Warriors becoming as good as they did, nobody saw them winning 73 games the next season. You like to leave details like this off.

[1987_Lakers]

They went from 1st to 10th - it's a crap shoot after the first few spots - 5th to 20th sees the most variance

And not a single announcer all year said the Bulls were pursuing a 4-peat, or "defending" 3-oeat champs.. It's because it was a foregone conclusion that the Bulls could never win without MJ

The odds had them at 44 wins, they won 55 with Pippen.

Vegas overrated MJ.

[3ba11]

The odds had them at 44 wins, they won 55 with Pippen.

Vegas overrated MJ.



Penny said that every team viewed Pippen's bulls as the time to stay out all night before the game (see the other thread for link)

So Vegas didn't account for the Bulls being the biggest letdown game of all-time and hungover opponents..

The 94' Bulls had no 2nd scorer and no go-to players, so they got by on 3-peat chemistry and letdown games/sleeping opponents.. That's why they cratered in the playoffs and following season when opponents woke up and took the Bulls seriously again

[1987_Lakers]

Bulls being the "biggest letdown game of the year" still took the team who were "preseason favorites" to win it all to 7 games in the playoffs in '94.

Your arguments suck.

[tpols]

Pippen did overachieve in 1994 regular season but he couldnt carry it over to the playoffs, where he got exposed by Pat Ewing and the Knicks.

[1987_Lakers]

Pippen did overachieve in 1994 regular season but he couldnt carry it over to the playoffs, where he got exposed by Pat Ewing and the Knicks.

They took the Knicks to 7 games as underdogs and were robbed in game 5. They swept Mark Price & Brad Daugherty in the first round without MJ.

:oldlol:

[sdot_thadon]

Lebron has lost to underdogs over and over again. He's lost with stacked super teams. He's had more help than any superstar in the history of the sport. If you don't acknowledge that, you're just in denial.

Lebron also has won as the underdog. Thats what happens in a competitive era.

[tpols]

They took the Knicks to 7 games as underdogs and were robbed in game 5. They swept Mark Price & Brad Daugherty in the first round without MJ.

:oldlol:

They were a miracle shot from Toni and temper tantrum from Pippen away from it being an early series. They got beat either way though. Pat smoked him. New York didn't fear the Bulls without MJ.

[1987_Lakers]

They were a miracle shot from Toni and temper tantrum from Pippen away from it being an early series. They got beat either way though. Pat smoked him. New York didn't fear the Bulls without MJ.

Bulls outscored the Knicks in that series. Acting like the series wasn't even a contest is why Bron haters are seen as low IQ. They don't live in reality.

[3ba11]

Bulls outscored the Knicks in that series. Acting like the series wasn't even a contest is why Bron haters are seen as low IQ. They don't live in reality.


If you have a younger brother or have ever been in a clearly superior position, there's something that's called "playing with your food"... The Knicks actually came back from 22 down in the 4th before Kukoc saved Pippen's ass with the buzzer-beater... Ewing was literally Jordan down the stretch of that game.. But overall, it was hard for the Knicks to get up for the Bulls without MJ there - they knew they were winning no matter what, like big bro

[Full Court]

LeBron was an underdog in the Finals 7 out of 10 times, still won 4 times. He lost with stacked teams because the teams he went up against were stacked, funny how this point always gets ignored. He played against the most stacked team in history in back to back years vs KD/Steph.

That's like giving Larry Bird shit for losing with "stacked super teams" because they lost to the showtime Lakers.

As usual, you're twisting things to try to make your hero sound better. He also lost numerous playoff series where he was the favorite, and as a RESULT DIDN'T MAKE IT TO THE FINALS.

Truth hurts, huh? :lol

You need to look way deep down inside and find the answer to this question: Are you a Mexi-can or a Mexi-can't?

[1987_Lakers]

As usual, you're twisting things to try to make your hero sound better. He also lost numerous playoff series where he was the favorite, and as a RESULT DIDN'T MAKE IT TO THE FINALS.

Truth hurts, huh? :lol

You need to look way deep down inside and find the answer to this question: Are you a Mexi-can or a Mexi-can't?

Your exact quote was that he lost as a favorite over and over again. Which simply isn't the case. There are also numerous series where he won as an underdog. 2012 & 2016 Finals come to mind. 2007 vs Detroit where he was a big underdog.

And how quickly we forget LeBron's team was an underdog in his first two matchups in 2022 vs Memphis & Golden State.

The nitpick is crazy.

Bird got swept as a big favorite in '83 vs the Bucks
Magic/Kareem lost in 5 as big favorites in '86 vs the Rockets
Shaq/Kobe lost as massive favorites in the Finals in 2004

Yet, nobody ever uses those series (and rightfully so) to stain their legacies.

[3ba11]

Upset losses from 09' to 11' doesn't qualify as "over and over"???

Oddsmakers hated Lebron for that, so they made his veteran super-team an underdog to baby Westbrick - an amazing fact

[1987_Lakers]

Upset losses from 09' to 11' doesn't qualify as "over and over"???

Oddsmakers hated Lebron for that, so they made his veteran super-team an underdog to baby Westbrick - an amazing fact

And we all know LeBron didn't have any teammates in 2009 & 2010. Only 2011 was the true time he lost as a favorite. I guess you could argue 2009 as well, even though LeBron's supporting cast was terrible vs Orlando while the Magic couldn't miss as a team and shot 40% from 3. 2010? No way, LeBron was outgunned.

LeBron averaged 39/8/8 on 59 TS% vs Orlando. I don't know how anyone can put that loss on him.

[1987_Lakers]

Forgot to add Kareem & Magic's loss as massive favorites to the Rockets in '81 where Magic was terrible. A 40-42 team. :lol

Nobody EVER brings that up. Only against LeBron.

[Full Court]

Your exact quote was that he lost as a favorite over and over again. Which simply isn't the case. There are also numerous series where he won as an underdog. 2012 & 2016 Finals come to mind. 2007 vs Detroit where he was a big underdog.

And how quickly we forget LeBron's team was an underdog in his first two matchups in 2022 vs Memphis & Golden State.

The nitpick is crazy.

Bird got swept as a big favorite in '83 vs the Bucks
Magic/Kareem lost in 5 as big favorites in '86 vs the Rockets
Shaq/Kobe lost as massive favorites in the Finals in 2004

Yet, nobody ever uses those series (and rightfully so) to stain their legacies.

It is the case. This is a fact.

You're either dumb or lying.

He lost ast he favorite in 2025.

He lost as the favorite in 2021.

He was only the underdog in 2012 because he was coming off the worst choke job in the entire history of the sport. Everyone expected him to choke again. Of course, he had a rare episode of NOT choking in 2012, but he made up for that many times later.

He lost as the favorite THREE YEARS IN A ROW in 2009, 2010, and 2011.

And of course, he lost the finals thrice as the favorite.

So there's absolutely no questioning the FACT that Lebron has lost as the favorite over and over again. It's cut and dry.

Cry it out, Dudley.

[1987_Lakers]

It is the case. This is a fact.

You're either dumb or lying.

He lost ast he favorite in 2025.

As a 40 year old. lol


He lost as the favorite in 2021.

LeBron and AD were injured in that series


He lost as the favorite THREE YEARS IN A ROW in 2009, 2010, and 2011.
Already showed he had no teammates in 2009 & 2010.


And of course, he lost the finals thrice as the favorite.

Wrong. Only time he lost as a favorite in the Finals was 2011. Where did you get 3? :oldlol:

Next!

[1987_Lakers]

As a matter of fact, the 2025 playoff loss as a 40 year old was the first time he lost a playoff series with HCA since 2011.

He went 14 years without losing a series with HCA.

But he lost "over and over again" as the favortie.

Cry it out full tard. :oldlol:

You guys nitpick everything.

[Full Court]

As a matter of fact, the 2025 playoff loss as a 40 year old was the first time he lost a playoff series with HCA since 2011.

He went 14 years without losing a series with HCA.

But he lost "over and over again" as the favortie.

Cry it out full tard. :oldlol:

You guys nitpick everything.

I guess your teeny tiny brain can't comprehend that you can still be the underdog with HCA. :roll:

Just like you couldn't comprehend that not every turnover comes from a botched pass.

What an idiot. :lol

[1987_Lakers]

I guess your teeny tiny brain can't comprehend that you can still be the underdog with HCA. :roll:

Just like you couldn't comprehend that not every turnover comes from a botched pass.

What an idiot. :lol

You have nothing. Refuted your every point and I know that stat I just showed blew your mind. And again, when did he lose as a favorite 3 times in the Finals?

LeBron the GOAT!

[1987_Lakers]

He went 10 seasons without losing a single series as the Vegas favorite (2012-2021). The time he did in 2021 there were injuries to LeBron & AD.

Again, this guy went a decade and most of his peak without losing a series where he was the favorite.

"Lost over and over again as a favorite"

GTFO :roll:

[3ba11]

he had no teammates in 2009 & 2010.





09' MO........... 2.3 BPM... 0.165 WS.48... 3.1 VORP... 17.2 PER
16' KLAY........ 1.8 BPM... 0.144 WS/48... 2.5 VORP... 18.6 PER
11' TERRY...... 1.0 BPM... 0.100 WS/48... 1.9 VORP... 15.9 PER

Mo's spacing fit with LeDrive and added 21 wins in 09'.. Mo joined a 45-win loser and turned it into a 66 wins league favorite

Jamison was also considered better than Klay, so that's better offensive help along with comparable elite defense, plus they were a 7th year organic juggernaut






he had no teammates in 2009 & 2010





You mean 2008 when they won 45 games

They picked up all-star spacing to open up LeDrive's game in 2009, which added 21 wins in 09', and then added a better scorer than Pippen in 2010

Initially, the all-star duo of Lebron/Zydrunas needed to add a 22/6/5 all-defender to win 50 games and make the 06' Playoffs (while MJ did that with nothing)

[1987_Lakers]

Mo Wiliams in the '09 Orlando series: 18|4|4 on 37% shooting.
Mo Williams in the '10 Boston series: 13|4|6 on 41% shooting.

Next!

[3ba11]

Mo Wiliams in the '09 Orlando series: 18|4|4 on 37% shooting.
Mo Williams in the '10 Boston series: 13|4|6 on 41% shooting.

Next!


38 ppg of ball-domination?? That never beats top teams... :facepalm:

So lebron simply needed a better brand of ball, which would've had more effective chemistry/teammate performance that fulfilled the team's expectation (-700 favorite)

MJ always won with 18 on 38% from Pippen, and worse team defenses

[1987_Lakers]

Yes, blame it on ball domination when teammates don't succeed, blame it on stacked teammates whenever LeBron wins.

Oldest trick in the book.

[Full Court]

You have nothing. Refuted your every point and I know that stat I just showed blew your mind. And again, when did he lose as a favorite 3 times in the Finals?

LeBron the GOAT!

Dumb and desperate. :roll:

I showed you the exact years he lost as the favorite, including 3 CONSECUTIVE years. And all you can counter with is "Bu-bu-bu-but he didn't have HCA so it didn't count!!! :cry:"

:roll:

I expect you to put up dumb attempts at counter-arguments, but this is just pathetic. :lol

Cry it out some more.

[1987_Lakers]

Dumb and desperate. :roll:

I showed you the exact years he lost as the favorite, including 3 CONSECUTIVE years. And all you can counter with is "Bu-bu-bu-but he didn't have HCA so it didn't count!!! :cry:"

:roll:

I expect you to put up dumb attempts at counter-arguments, but this is just pathetic. :lol

Cry it out some more.

Can you show me when he lost 3 times as the favorite in the Finals, like you said?

:roll:

[3ba11]

Can you show me when he lost 3 times as the favorite in the Finals, like you said?

:roll:


Isn't before the Finals even worse to lose as the favorite?? Lol

Lebron just lost in the 1st round with Luka!!! As the favorite!!! That's disqualifying

[1987_Lakers]

And of course, he lost the finals thrice as the favorite.

Still waiting for someone to confirm this.

[1987_Lakers]

Lebron just lost in the 1st round with Luka!!! As the favorite!!! That's disqualifying

MJ at that age didn't even make the playoffs, despite playing in the weakest conference in NBA history. That's disqualifying.

[3ba11]

.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=AjQR259CrwQ



https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=AjQR259CrwQ


Still waiting for someone to confirm this.


2011, 2014, and 2017 (above)

Remember that the Cavs roster of 3 franchise players was PERENNIALLY FAVORED against the Warriors' normal roster of 1 franchise player in the 15' and 16 pre season...

So the Warriors were simply catching up to the Cavs talent in 2017, since their 2nd option was outplaying the Warriors 1st option

[RRR3]

.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=AjQR259CrwQ



https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=AjQR259CrwQ




2011, 2014, and 2017 (above)
Snivelly why are you avoiding the Jokic Kobe thread? Scared you’ll get exposed?

[1987_Lakers]

.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=AjQR259CrwQ



https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=AjQR259CrwQ




2011, 2014, and 2017 (above)

Wrong as usual

https://www.oddsshark.com/nba/nba-finals-historical-series-odds-list

And how shameless do you have to be to throw 2017 in there? :lol

The 2017 Warriors are the GOAT team and would have been favorites over any MJ Bulls team.

[3ba11]

Wrong as usual

https://www.oddsshark.com/nba/nba-finals-historical-series-odds-list

And how shameless do you have to be to throw 2017 in there? :lol

The 2017 Warriors are the GOAT team and would have been favorites over any MJ Bulls team.



You can't go by Vegas odds when Lebron's super-team takes the regular season off and wins 53 games with peak Kyrie/Love

The Finals should've been a clash of titans like this 80's Celtics/Lakers but instead Lebron crapped the regular season and fell to big underdog

Instead of embracing the challenge of trying to match KD's Warriors with how own super-team, Lebron cowered and preferred to come off as a hopeless underdog.. it's a pathetic disolyof competitiveness and would never sniff a serious win vs MJ

[1987_Lakers]

You can't go by Vegas odds

So now we can't go by Vegas odds. :oldlol:

[3ba11]

So now we can't go by Vegas odds. :oldlol:


Not when Lebron's super-team takes the regular season off and wins 53 games with peak Kyrie/Love - this is unique to Lebron and Vegas doesn't account for it

The Finals should've been a clash of titans like this 80's Celtics/Lakers but instead Lebron crapped the regular season and fell to big underdog

Instead of embracing the challenge of trying to match KD's Warriors with his own super-team, Lebron cowered and preferred to come off as a hopeless underdog.. it's a pathetic disolyof competitiveness and would never sniff a series win vs MJ

[RRR3]

Snivelly desperately avoiding the Jokic Kobe thread :roll:

[1987_Lakers]

Not when Lebron's super-team takes the regular season off and wins 53 games with peak Kyrie/Love

The Finals should've been a clash of titans like this 80's Celtics/Lakers but instead Lebron crapped the regular season and fell to big underdog

More nitpick garbage

There was a 80's Celtics/Lakers Finals series in '84 where the Lakers only won 54 games during the season. Let's shit on Kareem & Magic for cowering and preferred to come off as hopeless underdogs.

[3ba11]

Snivelly desperately avoiding the Jokic Kobe thread :roll:

What point do you want me to respond to? I voted Kobe as better, obviously

[RRR3]

What point do you want me to respond to? I voted Kobe as better, obviously
Caught. Jokic is far better in all your favorite stats plus he won without another all star. Exposed as a hypocrite.

[3ba11]

More nitpick garbage

There was a 80's Celtics/Lakers series in '84 when the Lakers only won 54 games during the season. Let's shit on Kareem & Magic for cowering and preferred to come off as hopeless underdogs.


What do the odds say for 80's Celtics/Lakers?? Probably pretty close right, while Lebron's super-teams were big underdogs... Super-teams should never be big underdogs

And do you think Jordan would be worried about an opponent that his sidekick had already dominated??? Curry and Kyrie were quite comparable on the championship level at that time, so there was no talent gap - the Warriors were literally catching up to the perennially-favored Cavs (on paper in the 15' and 16' preseason)

[1987_Lakers]

What do the odds say for 80's Celtics/Lakers?? Probably pretty close right, while Lebron's super-teams were big underdogs... Super-teams should never be big underdogs

Pretty much any team in history would have been big underdogs going up against peak Curry, Durant, Draymond, & Klay.

Would have swept the '96 Bulls as well.

[3ba11]

Pretty much any team in history would have been big underdogs going up against peak Curry, Durant, Draymond, & Klay.

Would have swept the '96 Bulls as well.


Lebron/Kyrie/Love and company stacks up very well

Lebron just sucks, so his super-team was blown away by record amount, and Kyrie would be MVP for the Cavs by single-hadedly winning a game by himself

Btw, AD took a game off the 18' Warriors, while Harden took 3, so Lebron had no excuse for record blowout loss.. 2014 was even worse

[1987_Lakers]

Lebron/Kyrie/Love and company stacks up very well

:oldlol:

[3ba11]

:oldlol:


Love > Klay

And Kyrie already dominated Curry

So stop pretending - Lebron had his own super-teams that were favored for 6 straight years in the preseason from 11-16'... So what is the league supposed to do?? Sit by and watch him stack the deck forever??? KD's only mistake was waiting 6 years to respond

[1987_Lakers]

Love > Klay

And Kyrie already dominated Curry

So stop pretending - Lebron had his own super-teams that were favored for 6 straight years in the preseason from 11-16'... So what is the league supposed to do?? Sit by and watch him stack the deck forever??? KD's only mistake was waiting 6 years to respond

If it helps you sleep at night.

[Full Court]

Still waiting for someone to confirm this.

I guess if you knew how to do your own research you would have figured out what an advanced stat was by now.

2011 - Lebron was favorite. He lost.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_2011_preseason_odds.html

2014 - Lebron was the favorite. He lost. Incidentally, Lebron was also the betting favorite to win FMVP. Lost FMPV and lost the series. :lol

https://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_2014_preseason_odds.html

2015 - Lebron was the favorite. He lost.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_2015_preseason_odds.html

So suck on that for a while, and then apologize, admit you're an idiot, and wallow in your desperation some more. :roll:

:lebroncry:

[1987_Lakers]

Those are preseason odds bud.

You might be a little slow.

[1987_Lakers]

And not only were the Cavs underdogs vs the Warriors in 2015, Kyrie got injured in game 1 and didn't play the rest of the series. Kevin Love missed the entire series as well.

You would have to be an absolute retard to think LeBron was some sort of favorite in 2015.

You have full tard saying LeBron was a favorite in 2015 despite being a one man team in the Finals

You have 3ball saying LeBron was a favorite against peak Durant, Curry, Draymond, & Klay in 2017

This is how retarded Bron haters are.

[Full Court]

Those are preseason odds bud.

You might be a little slow.

Predictable. How did I know you were gonna say that. :roll: Just making yourself look like the desperate loser you are. Yeah. Preseason favorite. And lost. THREE TIMES. Suck on that. :lol

[RRR3]

duh-uh-uh-uhhh me stupid hehehehe
:roll: :roll: :roll:

[1987_Lakers]

Still waiting for someone to confirm this.

Moments before two posters take the bait and make themselves look like retards because of their illogical LeBron hate.

Hate to see it.

https://media0.giphy.com/media/v1.Y2lkPTc5MGI3NjExeTh5aTBlcjQ4NnJqNzAwbHA3cnkxamV pdTl2ZXExNWd2NnQ0Ynl4ZyZlcD12MV9pbnRlcm5hbF9naWZfY nlfaWQmY3Q9Zw/S1SnLg08CxnUGqyqha/giphy.gif

[Full Court]

Moments before two posters take the bait and make themselves look like retards because of their illogical LeBron hate.

Hate to see it.

https://media0.giphy.com/media/v1.Y2lkPTc5MGI3NjExeTh5aTBlcjQ4NnJqNzAwbHA3cnkxamV pdTl2ZXExNWd2NnQ0Ynl4ZyZlcD12MV9pbnRlcm5hbF9naWZfY nlfaWQmY3Q9Zw/S1SnLg08CxnUGqyqha/giphy.gif

^Bitch is SHOOK! :roll:

Proved him wrong yet again, and he can't even refute it because I posted the references.

What an idiot. :lol

[1987_Lakers]

Predictable. How did I know you were gonna say that. :roll: Just making yourself look like the desperate loser you are. Yeah. Preseason favorite. And lost. THREE TIMES. Suck on that. :lol

But you specifically said "Finals favorite”.


And of course, he lost the finals thrice as the favorite.

It must be exhausting making a fool of yourself time and time again and then taking time to figure out how to troll your way out of it.

https://media0.giphy.com/media/v1.Y2lkPTc5MGI3NjExeTh5aTBlcjQ4NnJqNzAwbHA3cnkxamV pdTl2ZXExNWd2NnQ0Ynl4ZyZlcD12MV9pbnRlcm5hbF9naWZfY nlfaWQmY3Q9Zw/S1SnLg08CxnUGqyqha/giphy.gif

[Full Court]

But you specifically said "Finals favorite”.



It must be exhausting making a fool of yourself time and time again and then taking time to figure out how to troll your way out of it.

https://media0.giphy.com/media/v1.Y2lkPTc5MGI3NjExeTh5aTBlcjQ4NnJqNzAwbHA3cnkxamV pdTl2ZXExNWd2NnQ0Ynl4ZyZlcD12MV9pbnRlcm5hbF9naWZfY nlfaWQmY3Q9Zw/S1SnLg08CxnUGqyqha/giphy.gif

Yep. Finals favorite. Read it and weep, homie.

Here's another juicy little tidbit for you. You're going to LOVE this one. Did you know that Lebron was the preseason favorite to win the West in 2022.....and didn't even make it to the PLAY IN? :roll:

Show me any star in NBA history who has underachieved expectations more than LeShrivel.

Go ahead. I'll wait.

[Hey Yo]

Those are preseason odds bud.

You might be a little slow.
Full Cuck destroyed :lol:lol

[Lebron23]

I hope someone strangle his neck, or put a bullet on FullCourt's head

[Full Court]

Full Court shows how LeShrivel lost over and over again as the favorite



and Bronie fluffers are in a full meltdown. :roll:

Must suck to have your hero be the worst choker of all time.

:lebroncry:

[sdot_thadon]

What i want to know is why Bron haters all seem to favor using preseason odds. You know the ones made 9 months out from the actual series, doesn't know the matchup, roster availability, or team quality up to that point? Rather than the odds figured going into the matchup that relies on all the data relevant to that series? Hmm great mystery indeed. I guess its better to use that for certain stars, you know the ones who's teams are so good, so much better than their projected comp that you can decide they'll win with accuracy 9 months out lol.

[3ba11]

Caught. Jokic is far better in all your favorite stats plus he won without another all star. Exposed as a hypocrite.


He doesn't motivate or elevate his team like Kobe

That's why Kobe was an automatic title with another 19 ppg player, while Jokic's teams struggle to focus - this actually goes for all of today's players... None of them would be able to hang with the SECOND tier players from yesteryear due to their baby-brains

[3ba11]

If it helps you sleep at night.


No honestly - what was the league supposed to do?? Sit by and watch Lebron stack the deck forever and hand-pick 6 straight preseason favorites???... 6 wasn't enough?.. KD's only mistake was waiting 6 years to respond

And Love destroys Klay... Do I need to post the numbers?.. Peak Klay didn't even match 09' Mo or Hornacek, let alone a boss like Love.. These are the facts, which means you believe falsehoods

[1987_Lakers]

What i want to know is why Bron haters all seem to favor using preseason odds. You know the ones made 9 months out from the actual series, doesn't know the matchup, roster availability, or team quality up to that point? Rather than the odds figured going into the matchup that relies on all the data relevant to that series? Hmm great mystery indeed. I guess its better to use that for certain stars, you know the ones who's teams are so good, so much better than their projected comp that you can decide they'll win with accuracy 9 months out lol.

They are slow.

[sdot_thadon]

No honestly - what was the league supposed to do?? Sit by and watch Lebron stack the deck forever and hand-pick 6 straight preseason favorites???
Aka Mj the league? You're right no one else should be able to have a team so good we know for a fact they'll win 9 months out. Only the leagues golden boy should get that advantage....

[3ba11]

What i want to know is why Bron haters all seem to favor using preseason odds. You know the ones made 9 months out from the actual series, doesn't know the matchup, roster availability, or team quality up to that point? Rather than the odds figured going into the matchup that relies on all the data relevant to that series? Hmm great mystery indeed. I guess its better to use that for certain stars, you know the ones who's teams are so good, so much better than their projected comp that you can decide they'll win with accuracy 9 months out lol.


Preseason odds are only valuable to show a trend over time..

In this case, it's a significant trend of starting as the on-paper favorite in the preseason, and then falling to underdog after barely winning 50 games in the regular season... We know the fall to underdog isn't due to talent, since the talent was initially favored, so we know it's a brand of ball and chemistry issue (turning everyone into spot-up shooter).

There are other trends as well.. i.e. the record for consecutive preseason favorites was 3, until Lebron hand-picked 6... This clearly demonstrates an advantage on the league, which required a response (KD's).. If KD could do it over, he would've matched Lebron right away instead of letting Lebron have an unfair talent edge for 6 years

[3ba11]

Aka Mj the league? You're right no one else should be able to have a team so good we know for a fact they'll win 9 months out. Only the leagues golden boy should get that advantage....


MJ didn't team up with Drexler and McHale

He grew a Larry Nance

[1987_Lakers]

Preseason odds are only valuable to show a trend over time..

In this case, it's a significant trend of starting as the on-paper favorite in the preseason, and then falling to underdog after barely winning 50 games in the regular season... We know the fall to underdog isn't due to talent, since the talent was initially favored, so we know it's a brand of ball and chemistry issue (turning everyone into spot-up shooter).

Kobe failed to win a title 3 times when he was a preseason favorite, despite having Shaq.

Yet, you think he's better than Jokic.

:lol

[Tavr]

No honestly - what was the league supposed to do?? Sit by and watch Lebron stack the deck forever and hand-pick 6 straight preseason favorites???... 6 wasn't enough?.. KD's only mistake was waiting 6 years to respond

And Love destroys Klay... Do I need to post the numbers?.. Peak Klay didn't even match 09' Mo or Hornacek, let alone a boss like Love.. These are the facts, which means you believe falsehoods

Interesting points, and I don't disagree that LeBron stacked it.

Which players all-time replace LeBron in Miami and still ring? Or replace him in Cleveland post 2014...and ring with Kyrie/Love? I can think of a few, mainly from the acclaimed top 10, but am I wrong thinking its not as many as we believe? :confusedshrug:

[3ba11]

Interesting points, and I don't disagree that LeBron stacked decks.

Which players all-time replace LeBron in Miami and still ring? Or replace him in Cleveland post 2014...and win with Kyrie/Love? I can think of a few, mainly from the acclaimed top 10, but am I wrong thinking its not as many as we believe? :confusedshrug:


How many guys got to hand-pick 2 first options from other teams to play with?

How would Drexler do if he hand-picked Bird and Kemp (Wade/Bosh), and then KJ/McHale (Kyrie/Love)??

Most top 75 players are winning chips if they can hand-pick 2 first options from other teams

Also, consider that Lebron's goat choke and record loss bookended a win over babies and teammate bailout - it's the shakiest and weakest 2 for 4 ever

[1987_Lakers]

Most top 75 players are winning chips if they can hand-pick 2 first options from other teams

Wilt who is top 10 ever and coming off an MVP season handpicked West & Baylor who were both top 5 players from the 60's and he couldn't win a title playing with both.

Next.

[3ba11]

Wilt who is top 10 ever and coming off an MVP season handpicked West & Baylor who were both top 5 players from the 60's and couldn't win a title playing with both.

Next!


Wilt and Elgin were fossils and this is what obvious common knowledge - next

Again, most top 150 players are winning chips if they can hand-pick 2 first options from other teams

[1987_Lakers]

Wilt and Elgin were fossils and this is what obvious common knowledge - next

Again, most top 150 players are winning chips if they can hand-pick 2 first options from other teams

Wilt was coming off an MVP season. Baylor was still making All-NBA First Teams and finishing top 5 in MVP voting in '68 & '69.

Next.

[3ba11]

Wilt was coming off an MVP season. Baylor was still making All-NBA First Teams and finishing top 5 in MVP voting in '68 & '69.

Next.



Again, they were past their prime and Baylor specifically was a fossil

This isn't debatable, not that one example would begin to refute the argument - 250 guys would win titles if they hand-picked 2 opposing 1st options to play with

[1987_Lakers]

Again, they were fossils

This isn't debatable

That's all you got? I just showed you facts that they were still elite. You got destroyed son.

Next.

[3ba11]

That's all you got? I just showed you facts that they were still elite. You got destroyed son.

Next.


You don't know anything.. Elgin was a fossil and Wilt was past his prime

This isn't debatable, not that one example would begin to refute the argument - 250 guys would win titles if they hand-picked 2 opposing 1st options to play with - we're talking 2 franchise players

[1987_Lakers]

Baylor actually got the most votes for All-NBA First Team selection in '69 when he played with Wilt.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/awards/awards_1969.html#leading_all_nba

And 3ball's only argument is "He was a fossil"

Next

[3ba11]

Baylor actually got the most votes for All-NBA First Team selection in '69 when he played with Wilt.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/awards/awards_1969.html#leading_all_nba

And 3ball's only argument is "He was a fossil"

Next



The media was even worse back then because that's where "legacy voting" started

They would've voted for Wilt and Elgin at 100 years old in that 10 team league

But literally everyone know Elgin was washed

[1987_Lakers]

The media was even worse back then because that's where "legacy voting" started

They would've voted for Wilt and Elgin at 100 years old in that 10 team league

But literally everyone know Elgin was washed

You lost, it's ok.

Next

[3ba11]

You lost, it's ok.

Next


Your defensiveness and bad counter is enough for me to claim the win

And it's intuitive.. Guys shouldn't get to hand-pick 2 franchise players from opposing teams - that's an absurd decking stacking and contrary to competition (teaming up with opponents and rivals) - it's the weakest thing that anyone has ever done in sports history.. So you feel for a fraud

[1987_Lakers]

Baylor actually got the most votes for All-NBA First Team selection in '69 when he played with Wilt.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/awards/awards_1969.html#leading_all_nba

And 3ball's only argument is "He was a fossil"

Next
Destroyed.

Next.

[3ba11]

So what you did here was admit you had no reply for what you quoted 2 times in a row and moved the goalposts to something that would allow you to continue your desired direction? 2-2 isnt a losing record, nor is 1-0. Thats what you quoted and didn't address. And id imagine eventually you guys would get a clue. You debate Mj and Lebron way too often to truly believe "he's nowhere close" you prove he is daily here. Keep up the good work!


Isn't Lebron 11-13 in the Finals in Miami

Lebron is a loser with 3 different teams... 4 actually if you look at the big picture in LA, aka 1 for 6 including 5 disastrous seasons (lottery, 1st Round, or sweep)

[Tavr]

How many guys got to hand-pick 2 first options from other teams to play with?

How would Drexler do if he hand-picked Bird and Kemp (Wade/Bosh), and then KJ/McHale (Kyrie/Love)??

Most top 75 players are winning chips if they can hand-pick 2 first options from other teams

Also, consider that Lebron's goat choke and record loss bookended a win over babies and teammate bailout - it's the shakiest and weakest 2 for 4 ever

My question referenced the Miami and Cleveland teams, but I understand what you're saying. The implication is Bird/Kemp = Wade/Bosh or relative to. Do guys like Drexler and Kobe actually win with Miami, say, in 2014 with a "washed" Wade? Or in 2015 with a hurt Kyrie and Love? The point about LeBron's 2011 choke is duly noted, past that though it gets interesting.

[3ba11]

My question referenced the Miami and Cleveland teams, but I understand what you're saying. The implication is Bird/Kemp = Wade/Bosh or relative to. Do guys like Drexler and Kobe actually win with Miami, say, in 2014 with a "washed" Wade? Or in 2015 with a hurt Kyrie and Love? The point about LeBron's 2011 choke is duly noted, past that though it gets interesting.


Why was Wade a near-equal scoring partner to Lebron in the 2014 ECF against the #1 defense if he was "washed".. Why was Wade still a 21/5/5 all-star in 2015 and 2016 if he was "washed" (and nearly made ECF in 16').

The issue is that Lebron's high scoring primary ballhandler (ball-dominator") skillset marginalized Love and Bosh into spot-up roles, so they lacked capacity to step up when Wade had a bad series.. (the spurs had simply solved wade/lebron)

Otoh, Drexler and Kobe were true off-guards that would produce an entirely different brand of ball that didn't marginalize teammates like Bosh.. They wouldn't be barely winning 50 games with 2 franchise player teammates and therefore being Finals underdog
.
Heck, Bosh was better than Pau, who was 1x all-star before Kobe elevated him to perennial All-NBA.. Kobe won with sidekick that was worse than Bosh because Kobe,'s skillset didn't impose spot-up roles like Lebron (better chemistry), and therefore won more with less

Btw, look how 22-year old Kobe dominated the Spurs in 01' (33 on 53%), while Lebron was worst-ever (22 on 35% with 6 TO's).. And Kobe dominated the 08' Spurs too with the same stats

[sdot_thadon]

How many guys got to hand-pick 2 first options from other teams to play with?

How would Drexler do if he hand-picked Bird and Kemp (Wade/Bosh), and then KJ/McHale (Kyrie/Love)??

Most top 75 players are winning chips if they can hand-pick 2 first options from other teams

Also, consider that Lebron's goat choke and record loss bookended a win over babies and teammate bailout - it's the shakiest and weakest 2 for 4 ever

They obviously didn't have the type of free agency Lebron's era had, so how could they? The beat they could do was stack lotto picks and thats how the teams were created back then.

Bird was somehow picked by the Celtics an entire season before he was eligible to play in the league. He was drafted onto a team that already had Archibald, Cowens (champion, Mvp) , and would trade for Maravich later that season. Then add lotto picks Parish and McHale. A few years later add Dennis Johnson a fmvp, then Walton, lotto pick mvp, fmvp. And in the midst of having whats considered the greatest team ever ? They get a lotto pick, Len Bias, unfortunately he passed away before playing a game but was basically supposed to be Mj caliber.

Magic was drafted to play with the best player in the league. Jabbar, also had Wilkes. A couple years later they add McAdoo, mvp. Fresh off a title? Add no.1 pick worthy. The another lotto pick, Scott. Then another former no.1 pick, Thompson.

Even Dr.J joined a team with Mcginnis and lotto pick Dawkins. And later added lotto picks Jones, Toney and Malone, who was an mvp. Then a few years later add another lotto pick Barkely!

Mj joined a team with a lotto pick, woolridge. Next season add Gervin and lotto pick, Oakley. Then another lotto pick. Sellers. Then Mj got 2 lotto picks in the same draft! Turned into Horace and scottie who coincidentally were the cornerstones to help Mj get over the hump. Stacey King was the 6th pick. Bj Armstrong was projected be a lotto pick but he dropped after a predraft Injury. Longley was a lotto pick. Bill cartwright, 3rd pick. Ron Harper, lotto pick..hell Will Perdue was just outside of the lotto as 11th pick!

That was how the nba of that era operated. Free agency wasnt as wide open as it became later and apparently lotto picks were readily available every year for even contenders. Just imagine if Lebron was able to have those sort of picks while coming into the league on a team with at least some talent. Hed never have to leave the cavs either. I might do a little research just to see what sort of team the cavs could have fielded around Lebron with thise other stars' luck on the same time frame. Teams back then stacked a different way. Time to get with the times.

[Tavr]

Why was Wade a near-equal scoring partner to Lebron in the 2014 ECF against the #1 defense if he was "washed".. Why was Wade still a 21/5/5 all-star in 2015 and 2016 if he was "washed" (and nearly made ECF in 16').

The issue is that Lebron's high scoring primary ballhandler (ball-dominator") skillset marginalized Love and Bosh into spot-up roles, so they lacked capacity to step up when Wade had a bad series..

Otoh, Drexler and Kobe were true off-guards that would produce an entirely different brand of ball that didn't marginalize teammates like Bosh.. They wouldn't be barely winning 50 games with 2 franchise player teammates and therefore being Finals underdog
.
Heck, Bosh was better than Pau, who was 1x all-star before Kobe elevated him to perennial All-NBA.. Kobe won with sidekick that was worse than Bosh because Kobe,'s skillset didn't impose spot-up roles like Lebron (better chemistry), and therefore won more with less

Btw, look how 22-year old Kobe dominated the Spurs in 01' (33 on 53%), while Lebron was worst-ever (22 on 35% with 6 TO's).. And Kobe dominated the 08' Spurs too with the same stats

Wade was washed because he missed half that year with injuries. And up until that point its the lowest production of his career. Statistically a far cry from his prime years...heck even from his role in 2012. I don't disagree that LeBron's ball dominant style reduces star players, particularly those who were their teams 'go-to' on offense.

But just so we're clear. You're suggesting a Prime Drex on Miami wins from 2011-2014? No hate, I actually think its an interesting and unique take :lol

[3ba11]

So what you did here was admit you had no reply for what you quoted 2 times in a row and moved the goalposts to something that would allow you to continue your desired direction? 2-2 isnt a losing record, nor is 1-0. Thats what you quoted and didn't address. And id imagine eventually you guys would get a clue. You debate Mj and Lebron way too often to truly believe "he's nowhere close" you prove he is daily here. Keep up the good work!


Fyi - Despite agreeing to take a step back so Lebron could have the team, Wade still had a 26 PER in 2012 and was top 5 in everything (PER, BPM, WS/48, VORP).. It was 2013 that he fell to Pippen-caliber (20/5/5), which Lebron barely won with despite having a 2nd Pippen (Bosh).. Of course Bosh had been reduced to spot-up shooter, so his capacity to step up had been robbed by bron-ball

Anyone wins in 2011 because they just have to play a more effective sidekick to Wade... Pippen-caliber from Lebron simply isn't enough to win, even against a 1-man team and big underdog.

Regarding Drexler in 2014 and even 2013 - no, negative... Drexler wasn't good enough to 4-peat (GOAT) or even 3-peat... But he would win in 2011 and 2012 against 22-23 babies (the same age that LeBrick got a pass for against the 07' Spurs)??? Yes.. Drexler and any top 75 guy would easily win in those years, thereby at least matching Lebron, like I said

[sdot_thadon]

Fyi - Despite agreeing to take a step back so Lebron could have the team, Wade still had a 26 PER in 2012 and was top 5 in everything (PER, BPM, WS/48, VORP).. It was 2013 that he fell to Pippen-caliber (20/5/5), which Lebron barely won with despite having a 2nd Pippen (Bosh).. Of course Bosh had been reduced to spot-up shooter, so his capacity to step up had been robbed by bron-ball

Anyone wins in 2011 because they just have to play a more effective sidekick to Wade... Pippen-caliber from Lebron simply isn't enough to win, even against a 1-man team and big underdog.

Regarding Drexler in 2014 and even 2013 - no, negative... Drexler wasn't good enough to 4-peat (GOAT) or even 3-peat... But he would win in 2011 and 2012 against 22-23 babies (the same age that LeBrick got a pass for against the 07' Spurs)??? Yes.. Drexler and any top 75 guy would easily win in those years, thereby at least matching Lebron, like I said

Don't think we don't see you running from the post thats addressing you personally. But aight.

Despite agreeing to "take a step back Wade still shot the ball more times a game than pippen ever did, even in 94 when he went solo. Wade literally took 2 shots less than Lebron a game on almost identical usage. Some step back, more like Lebron was able to share the load and let Dwade be as much Dwade as he had left in the tank. They played 66 games that season, Wade missing 17. Heat went 14-3 without him. And once the playoffs hit all those numbers you mentioned fell right in line with Pippen numbers mysteriously. Not forgetting the fact he had to get his knee drained mid series vs indy and Lebron spoon fed him a great game to help get him going while Bosh was also out. And yeah I suggest you go rethink the Wade advanced stat in 2012 angle becuase come playoff time he wasnt any better than Scottie tbf.

**oh and lemme get this logic check correct

Lebron BARELY won in 2013 with 2 pippens according to you, Yet Wade couldn't do the same with 2 pippens in 2011 versus a worse team? Lol.

[Full Court]

What i want to know is why Bron haters all seem to favor using preseason odds. You know the ones made 9 months out from the actual series, doesn't know the matchup, roster availability, or team quality up to that point? Rather than the odds figured going into the matchup that relies on all the data relevant to that series? Hmm great mystery indeed. I guess its better to use that for certain stars, you know the ones who's teams are so good, so much better than their projected comp that you can decide they'll win with accuracy 9 months out lol.

What I want to know is why Bronie fluffers try to pretend that preseason odds DON'T indicate that he underperformed expectations, when anyone with half a functioning brain can see that he did.

LeUnderacheiver.


:lebroncry:

[sdot_thadon]

What I want to know is why Bronie fluffers try to pretend that preseason odds DON'T indicate that he underperformed expectations, when anyone with half a functioning brain can see that he did.

LeUnderacheiver.


:lebroncry:

Are you dense? Preseason odds are made without even knowing the matchup of all things it doesn't take into account. Put plainly its stupid to use Preseason odds vs series odds for something that happened in the past. It means he underperformed a roundabout guess of how a season will go 9 months in the future? Clown.

[Full Court]

Are you dense? Preseason odds are made without even knowing the matchup of all things it doesn't take into account. Put plainly its stupid to use Preseason odds vs series odds for something that happened in the past. It means he underperformed a roundabout guess of how a season will go 9 months in the future? Clown.

^Pathetic attempt at damage control.

No amount of mental gymnastics that you do can get around the fact that nobody in the history of the sport has consistently underperformed expectations like Lebron has. There's a reason why he got the nickname "LeShrivel." :lol

Ponder that deeply for a while.

[1987_Lakers]

Are you dense? Preseason odds are made without even knowing the matchup of all things it doesn't take into account. Put plainly its stupid to use Preseason odds vs series odds for something that happened in the past. It means he underperformed a roundabout guess of how a season will go 9 months in the future? Clown.

:roll:

[Full Court]

:roll:

Yeah, preseason favorites are soooooooo irrelevant that basketball-reference archives them for absolutely no reason. :roll::roll:

Nice try, Dudley. But nobody's buying it.

Bronie fluffers lose AGAIN. [much like their hero]

:lebronamazed:

[1987_Lakers]

This dude believes LeBron without Kyrie and Love was a favorite to win against the Warriors in 2015.

:roll:

[sdot_thadon]

This dude believes LeBron without Kyrie and Love was a favorite to win against the Warriors in 2015.

:roll:

Hes pretty much taken the title of village idiot and made it his own.

[Full Court]

This dude believes LeBron without Kyrie and Love was a favorite to win against the Warriors in 2015.

:roll:

https://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_2015_preseason_odds.html

Read it and weep, homie. :lol

Imagine letting your fans down over and over again. :roll:

I think that's why you're ok with losing over and over again here on ISH. It helps you identify with your hero. :roll:

:lebronamazed:

[Overdrive]

https://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_2015_preseason_odds.html

Read it and weep, homie. :lol

Imagine letting your fans down over and over again. :roll:

I think that's why you're ok with losing over and over again here on ISH. It helps you identify with your hero. :roll:

:lebronamazed:

"Pre season" vs not having Kyrie/Love during the finals. Do you think you're clever in any way?

[1987_Lakers]

"Pre season" vs not having Kyrie/Love during the finals. Do you think you're clever in any way?

full tard getting destroyed. Ouch.


Hes pretty much taken the title of village idiot and made it his own.

:oldlol:

Nice avy

[Full Court]

full tard getting destroyed. Ouch.



:oldlol:

Nice avy

Here's another little test of your basketball knowledge. You've failed so many of them, but Full Court in his generosity is giving you another chance. :lol

How many times did Jordan lose as the preseason favorite?

And one more just for good measure:

How many times did Curry lose as the preseason favorite?

[Full Court]

"Pre season" vs not having Kyrie/Love during the finals. Do you think you're clever in any way?

I've stated facts that are indisputable. Lebron has lost THREE times in the finals as preseason favorite.

You can whine and pout and hate it, but it doesn't change the fact. :confusedshrug:

Deal with it.

[Lebron23]

I've stated facts that are indisputable. Lebron has lost THREE times in the finals as preseason favorite.

You can whine and pout and hate it, but it doesn't change the fact. :confusedshrug:

Deal with it.

Just kill yourself. You piece of $hit

[Lebron23]

I've stated facts that are indisputable. Lebron has lost THREE times in the finals as preseason favorite.

You can whine and pout and hate it, but it doesn't change the fact. :confusedshrug:

Deal with it.

Just kill yourself. You piece of $hit

[Full Court]

Just kill yourself. You piece of $hit

No.

How about you grow to a normal height. :lol

[Full Court]

Here's another little test of your basketball knowledge. You've failed so many of them, but Full Court in his generosity is giving you another chance. :lol

How many times did Jordan lose as the preseason favorite?

And one more just for good measure:

How many times did Curry lose as the preseason favorite?

I'm shocked. 1987_losers is avoiding these questions like the plague. :lol Bitch is SHOOK.

[sdot_thadon]

Here's another little test of your basketball knowledge. You've failed so many of them, but Full Court in his generosity is giving you another chance. :lol

How many times did Jordan lose as the preseason favorite?

And one more just for good measure:

How many times did Curry lose as the preseason favorite?
:oldlol::oldlol:

You can only call it with accuracy that far in advance when your team is a certain amount better than the field.......duh.

[3ba11]

:oldlol::oldlol:

You can only call it with accuracy that far in advance when your team is a certain amount better than the field.......duh.


It's a trend - Lebron has losing records with every type of good roster like preseason favorites (4-5), Finals teams (4-6), all-star teammates (4-8), and 1 or 2 seeds, 4-5)

MJ is undefeated in all these scenarios (edit: 2 losses with an all-star in baseball year and migraine year)

[1987_Lakers]

I'm shocked. 1987_losers is avoiding these questions like the plague. :lol Bitch is SHOOK.

Sorry full tard, you can't distract people from your massive blunder in this thread.

[sdot_thadon]

It's a trend - Lebron has losing records with every type of good roster like preseason favorites (4-5), Finals teams (4-6), all-star teammates (4-8), and 1 or 2 seeds, 4-5)

MJ is undefeated in all these scenarios (edit: 2 losses with an all-star in baseball year and migraine year)

Yeah hes undefeated at 9 month out non contact predictions lol. Aka stacked.

[RRR3]

it's a trend - lebron has losing records with every type of good roster like preseason favorites (4-5), finals teams (4-6), all-star teammates (4-8), and 1 or 2 seeds, 4-5)

mj is undefeated in all these scenarios (edit: 2 losses with an all-star in baseball year and migraine year)
snivelly

[Full Court]

Sorry full tard, you can't distract people from your massive blunder in this thread.

Still dodging the question. Not surprised. Not at all. :roll:

Full Court wins again. It's not even a contest.