Better at basketball, Jokić or Kobe?

[RRR3]

Strictly speaking on court ability not based on accolades or anything like that.

[John8204]

Kobe might be the best iso player of all-time, if they played one on one I think Kobe wins

[RRR3]

The question was about 5 on 5 basketball try to keep up.

[John8204]

The question was about 5 on 5 basketball try to keep up.

Why did you make this thread? Anyways...Kobe can play a game from start to finish that's kinda important.

[highwhey]

not even a fair comparison :kobe:

[j3lademaster]

Kobe might be the best iso player of all-time, if they played one on one I think Kobe wins

Size matters way too much in one on one. Scott Burrell almost beat Michael Jordan, and Burrell was a total scrub.

[John8204]

Size matters way too much in one on one. Scott Burrell almost beat Michael Jordan, and Burrell was a total scrub.

Maybe but Kobe won a title with KG on him

[RRR3]

Maybe but Kobe won a title with KG on him
This didn’t happen.

[Overdrive]

What exactly except ballhandling is Kobe better at? Yeah Jokič is slower, but he's more effective while scoring at the same clip on average. Better rebounder, better passer. So all Kobe has on Jokič is fanciness. Kobe's defense outside the 3 peat years is massively overrated.

[RRR3]

What exactly except ballhandling is Kobe better at? Yeah Jokič is slower, but he's more effective while scoring at the same clip on average. Better rebounder, better passer. So all Kobe has on Jokič is fanciness. Kobe's defense outside the 3 peat years is massively overrated.
High IQ post.

[1987_Lakers]

What exactly except ballhandling is Kobe better at? Yeah Jokič is slower, but he's more effective while scoring at the same clip on average. Better rebounder, better passer. So all Kobe has on Jokič is fanciness. Kobe's defense outside the 3 peat years is massively overrated.

Anyone who watched basketball during the 00's agrees with this. The only year outside the 3 peat you could say he had an argument for being All-Defense is 2008.

[RRR3]

Anyone who watched basketball during the 00's agrees with this. The only year outside the 3 peat you could say he had an argument for being All-Defense is 2008.
xRAPM has Kobe ranked 21st percentile as a defender for his career :lol

[SouBeachTalents]

How y’all feel about Kobe’s defense in ‘03, was that really the year you noticed a drop off?

[1987_Lakers]

How y’all feel about Kobe’s defense in ‘03, was that really the year you noticed a drop off?

By '03 he became inconsistent. Effort wasn't there like in years past. Alot of it was because of an increased offensive role that year. I would still say his defense that year was far better than his '06 & '07 years. It was an absolute joke that he made all-defensive first team in '06 & '07. Alot of fans at the time didn't agree with that.

[RRR3]

Looks like only the least knowledgeable posters of ISH when it comes to basketball think Kobe is better.

[SouBeachTalents]

Looks like only the least knowledgeable posters of ISH when it comes to basketball think Kobe is better.
John8204 voted for Kobe so that isn't true.

[RRR3]

John8204 voted for Kobe so that isn't true.
True where would we be without his genius takes like Stockton>Shaq?

[RRR3]

Snivelball voted for Kobe. In case you needed any more proof Jokic is better.


Snivelly, how come Jokic has far better PER WS BPM and VORP? Your favorite stats apparently. And how come Jokic didn’t need allstars to win unlike Kobe. Be consistent snivelly :no:

[Baller234]

What exactly except ballhandling is Kobe better at? Yeah Jokič is slower, but he's more effective while scoring at the same clip on average. Better rebounder, better passer. So all Kobe has on Jokič is fanciness. Kobe's defense outside the 3 peat years is massively overrated.

"More effective at scoring..." :oldlol:

He's so effective yet he couldn't figure out how to beat Alex Caruso. He's so effective yet he relies on Jamal Murray half the time.

Your grandpa could score at higher efficiency in this era. Look at Bron and Durant, old and injured as fukk but more "efficient" than they were during their primes.

Here is what Ty Lue had to say about MJ just a few days ago when asked how many he would average today:

"Today? 45," Lue said confidently when asked how many points Jordan would average today. "You can't touch nobody. It's a foul. ... There wouldn't be a year he wouldn't average 45. You can't touch nobody now. The physicality's pretty much gone. Anything, you're going to the free throw line, and just how smart he was. Especially nowadays, you can take advantage of these guys just as far as IQ alone."

Considering Kobe is the closest thing we've seen to MJ, both in terms of talent and killer mindset, it's safe to say those same things apply.

Jay-Z has a famous lyric "do you fools listen to music or do you just skim through it..."

Here it's more like "do you fools actually watch basketball or do you just look at numbers after the fact..."

Because only a number obsessed dork could watch Kobe dominate in real time, rack up all these championships... and then look at his numbers AFTER THE FACT and determine he was no good.

And to add insult to injury, they're not even real numbers. They're made up advanced statistics. Frankenstein numbers that carry no significance.

[warriorfan]

xRAPM has Kobe ranked 21st percentile as a defender for his career :lol

Where does it rank Klay Thompson?

[Overdrive]

"More effective at scoring..." :oldlol:

He's so effective yet he couldn't figure out how to beat Alex Caruso. He's so effective yet he relies on Jamal Murray half the time.

Your grandpa could score at higher efficiency in this era. Look at Bron and Durant, old and injured as fukk but more "efficient" than they were during their primes.

Here is what Ty Lue had to say about MJ just a few days ago when asked how many he would average today:

"Today? 45," Lue said confidently when asked how many points Jordan would average today. "You can't touch nobody. It's a foul. ... There wouldn't be a year he wouldn't average 45. You can't touch nobody now. The physicality's pretty much gone. Anything, you're going to the free throw line, and just how smart he was. Especially nowadays, you can take advantage of these guys just as far as IQ alone."

Considering Kobe is the closest thing we've seen to MJ, both in terms of talent and killer mindset, it's safe to say those same things apply.

Jay-Z has a famous lyric "do you fools listen to music or do you just skim through it..."

Here it's more like "do you fools actually watch basketball or do you just look at numbers after the fact..."

Because only a number obsessed dork could watch Kobe dominate in real time, rack up all these championships... and then look at his numbers AFTER THE FACT and determine he was no good.

And to add insult to injury, they're not even real numbers. They're made up advanced statistics. Frankenstein numbers that carry no significance.

You keep citing Caruso while it's not like Kobe qasn't locked down multiple times during whole series.

Also Kobe was good. Just not as good as Jokič is and I watched Kobe "grow up".

[RRR3]

"More effective at scoring..." :oldlol:

He's so effective yet he couldn't figure out how to beat Alex Caruso. He's so effective yet he relies on Jamal Murray half the time.

Your grandpa could score at higher efficiency in this era. Look at Bron and Durant, old and injured as fukk but more "efficient" than they were during their primes.

Here is what Ty Lue had to say about MJ just a few days ago when asked how many he would average today:

"Today? 45," Lue said confidently when asked how many points Jordan would average today. "You can't touch nobody. It's a foul. ... There wouldn't be a year he wouldn't average 45. You can't touch nobody now. The physicality's pretty much gone. Anything, you're going to the free throw line, and just how smart he was. Especially nowadays, you can take advantage of these guys just as far as IQ alone."

Considering Kobe is the closest thing we've seen to MJ, both in terms of talent and killer mindset, it's safe to say those same things apply.

Jay-Z has a famous lyric "do you fools listen to music or do you just skim through it..."

Here it's more like "do you fools actually watch basketball or do you just look at numbers after the fact..."

Because only a number obsessed dork could watch Kobe dominate in real time, rack up all these championships... and then look at his numbers AFTER THE FACT and determine he was no good.

And to add insult to injury, they're not even real numbers. They're made up advanced statistics. Frankenstein numbers that carry no significance.
Make the case for Kobe with facts not whiny emotional meltdowns please.

[3ba11]

Make the case for Kobe with facts not whiny emotional meltdowns please.


What applies to MJ applies to Kobe

I didn't know Lue said all that - so it shows that everyone knows previous eras were better basketball players with superior hoops instinct, IQ and toughness

[RRR3]

What applies to MJ applies to Kobe

I didn't know Lue said all that - so it shows that everyone knows previous eras were better basketball players with superior hoops instinct, IQ and toughness
Kobe had a terrible basketball IQ, he chucked up horrid shots like a madman. Next.


Meanwhile the stats you always use have Jokic FAR ahead.

Kobe career high BPM: 7.6 Jokic AVERAGE BPM: 10.3

Kobe career high PER: 28.0 Jokic AVERAGE PER: 28.5

Kobe career high WS/48: .224 Jokic AVERAGE WS/48: .260




:yaohappy:








poor poor POOOOR snivelly

[warriorfan]

Soooooo, what does DRAPM say about Klay? lol

[RRR3]

Soooooo, what does DRAPM say about Klay? lol
Stay on topic please this is about Jokic and Kobe

[Overdrive]

What applies to MJ applies to Kobe

I didn't know Lue said all that - so it shows that everyone knows previous eras were better basketball players with superior hoops instinct, IQ and toughness

No, it does simply not. Kobe was worse than Jordan at everything but shooting 3s.

[SouBeachTalents]

No, it does simply not. Kobe was worse than Jordan at everything but shooting 3s.
What's wild to me is you could never convince me Kobe was discernably better at his peak than guys like Kawhi & Wade, yet people try to lump him in with Jordan when he's clearly not on his level either all time or peak wise.

I honestly can't think of another athlete people try so hard to elevate to a level he doesn't belong at like Kobe, they frankly do a disservice to him by trying to do that.

[RRR3]

what's wild to me is you could never convince me kobe was discernably better at his peak than guys like kawhi & wade, yet people try to lump him in with jordan when he's clearly not on his level either all time or peak wise.

I honestly can't think of another athlete people try so hard to elevate to a level he doesn't belong at like kobe, they frankly do a disservice to him trying to do that.
5 rangz

[Baller234]

What's wild to me is you could never convince me Kobe was discernably better at his peak than guys like Kawhi & Wade, yet people try to lump him in with Jordan when he's clearly not on his level either all time or peak wise.

I honestly can't think of another athlete people try so hard to elevate to a level he doesn't belong at like Kobe, they frankly do a disservice to him by trying to do that.

He wasn't leaps better, but he was definitely better.

Wade was quicker than Kobe and faster off the dribble no question, but he didn't have the same raw fundamentals. With Kawhi it's the opposite. He has the fundamentals but Kobe is more crafty and creative.

They're both great players. The gap between them and Kobe isn't big at all. We're splitting hairs.

But I'm still giving Kobe the edge over them if forced to choose. Neither of them were visibly "better" and neither of them have the resume or the results to prove it.

[RRR3]

He wasn't leaps better, but he was definitely better.

Wade was quicker than Kobe and faster off the dribble no question, but he didn't have the same raw fundamentals. With Kawhi it's the opposite. He has the fundamentals but Kobe is more crafty and creative.

They're both great players. The gap between them and Kobe isn't big at all. We're splitting hairs.

But I'm still giving Kobe the edge over them if forced to choose. Neither of them were visibly "better" and neither of them have the resume or the results to prove it.
Definitely better based on what? Because you say so? Wade had a better finals performance than Kobe ever had in 2006 and a better regular season than he ever had in 2009 too.

[fsvr54]

I'm a big Kobe fan but Jokic is getting to Mt Rushmore levels

[Overdrive]

What's wild to me is you could never convince me Kobe was discernably better at his peak than guys like Kawhi & Wade, yet people try to lump him in with Jordan when he's clearly not on his level either all time or peak wise.

I honestly can't think of another athlete people try so hard to elevate to a level he doesn't belong at like Kobe, they frankly do a disservice to him by trying to do that.

And it's weird enough that early Wade was way closer to first 3 peat Jordan than any "Next MJ" ever was. He just wasn't granted the best franchise the NBA has to offer from day 1.

As good as Kobe was but he was a lesser version of post baseball Jordan and as you say people act like he's anywhere close to the peak version. He just isn't and there are quite some people between. Lebron and Jokič being two of those.

Kobe stans are weird. No other fanbase takes that much issue putting their guy at a spot they don't feel he deserves. Putting Kobe at 7, 11 or 12 all time doesn't change his career in any way, but they act like if he's put at 12 people think he sucked.

[Baller234]

And it's weird enough that early Wade was way closer to first 3 peat Jordan than any "Next MJ" ever was. He just wasn't granted the best franchise the NBA has to offer from day 1.

As good as Kobe was but he was a lesser version of post baseball Jordan and as you say people act like he's anywhere close to the peak version. He just isn't and there are quite some people between. Lebron and Jokič being two of those.

Kobe stans are weird. No other fanbase takes that much issue putting their guy at a spot they don't feel he deserves. Putting Kobe at 7, 11 or 12 all time doesn't change his career in any way, but they act like if he's put at 12 people think he sucked.

Don't take it up with us, take it up with Ty Lue. Take it up with the litany of HOF'ers and stars that would tell you you're wrong.

Let me guess, they're all retarded stans too? You guys know more than they do because you studied a graph and watched "Thinking Basketball"???

:oldlol:

[Overdrive]

Don't take it up with us, take it up with Ty Lue. Take it up with the litany of HOF'ers and stars that would tell you you're wrong.

Let me guess, they're all retarded stans too? You guys know more than they do because you studied a graph and watched "Thinking Basketball"???

:oldlol:

A quote about Jordan is proof to you that Kobe would be as good as some virtual Jordan Lue proposed. That's your kind of "facts".

[Baller234]

dbl

[Baller234]

A quote about Jordan is proof to you that Kobe would be as good as some virtual Jordan Lue proposed. That's your kind of "facts".

Same interview:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zMpm1UFwSUQ

Shannon tells Lue that some outlet had Kobe ranked 11th all time. You could tell by the look on his face and the conviction of his response that he has Kobe ranked a lot higher than that. He SNEERS at the thought of Kobe being #11.

You think he has Yolk top ten all time?? :oldlol:

Here is the video I posted in the other thread showing various hof'ers and stars echoing that Kobe is just below Mike. Multiple examples of guys who played against Kobe, Lebron and Wade... all saying Kobe was the best they faced.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VvcmuUd6CHo

But sure, they're just retarded stans.

[RRR3]

Yes they are retarded stans. Being a player doesn’t mean you can’t be biased.

[StrongLurk]

Jokic

[Overdrive]

Same interview:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zMpm1UFwSUQ

Shannon tells Lue that some outlet had Kobe ranked 11th all time. You could tell by the look on his face and the conviction of his response that he has Kobe ranked a lot higher than that. He SNEERS at the thought of Kobe being #11.

You think he has Yolk top ten all time?? :oldlol:

Here is the video I posted in the other thread showing various hof'ers and stars echoing that Kobe is just below Mike. Multiple examples of guys who played against Kobe, Lebron and Wade... all saying Kobe was the best they faced.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VvcmuUd6CHo

But sure, they're just retarded stans.

As I said before. Being ranked 11th or 7th doesn't change anything about Kobe's skill or career. It's just how the creatora of such a list perceive his career.

Players mostly don't give a shit about "career" they see a player from a skill POV and ofc a contemporary will rank Kobe very high, but at the same time most contemporaries neglect the players who came before and do so for alot for the ones that came afterwards.

You'll have lists by players that are heavily biased towards their era and one maybe two idols they loved watching when they grew up. While players are surely more in touch of the game in itself journalists cover a way larger amount of time under the same conditions.

I think a mix of both views could be very accurate.

[fsvr54]

Same interview:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zMpm1UFwSUQ

Shannon tells Lue that some outlet had Kobe ranked 11th all time. You could tell by the look on his face and the conviction of his response that he has Kobe ranked a lot higher than that. He SNEERS at the thought of Kobe being #11.

You think he has Yolk top ten all time?? :oldlol:

Here is the video I posted in the other thread showing various hof'ers and stars echoing that Kobe is just below Mike. Multiple examples of guys who played against Kobe, Lebron and Wade... all saying Kobe was the best they faced.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VvcmuUd6CHo

But sure, they're just retarded stans.

None of these guys played against or with Jokic... If they did, they'd be saying the same shit about him

[HoopsNY]

Definitely better based on what? Because you say so? Wade had a better finals performance than Kobe ever had in 2006 and a better regular season than he ever had in 2009 too.

Kobe FS '02: 27/6/5/2 on 62% TS%
Wade FS '06: 35/8/4/3 on 57% TS%

Kobe's 2002 finals gets overlooked because of Shaq, but he did it against the #1 defense compared to Dallas who were #11.

I think the conversation between Jokic and Kobe is close. Recency bias and the fact that Jokic is currently in his peak is skewing perception, in addition to the era that inflates numbers. I don't think for a second that Jokic is putting up a triple double if he's playing in 2001 or say, 2005.

Another thing that can't be left out of the conversation is that Kobe ran through a gauntlet nearly every season. Jokic has beaten what, two 50 win teams in his entire career in the playoffs? I still have him ahead of Jokic, though not by much.

That being said, I don't fault anyone for putting him above Kobe because Jokic has been the best player in the league for the last 5 seasons quite definitively whereas during Kobe's time, we can't really say the same.

[SouBeachTalents]

Kobe FS '02: 27/6/5/2 on 62% TS%
Wade FS '06: 35/8/4/3 on 57% TS%

Kobe's 2002 finals gets overlooked because of Shaq, but he did it against the #1 defense compared to Dallas who were #11.

I think the conversation between Jokic and Kobe is close. Recency bias and the fact that Jokic is currently in his peak is skewing perception, in addition to the era that inflates numbers. I don't think for a second that Jokic is putting up a triple double if he's playing in 2001 or say, 2005.

Another thing that can't be left out of the conversation is that Kobe ran through a gauntlet nearly every season. Jokic has beaten what, two 50 win teams in his entire career in the playoffs? I still have him ahead of Jokic, though not by much.

That being said, I don't fault anyone for putting him above Kobe because Jokic has been the best player in the league for the last 5 seasons quite definitively whereas during Kobe's time, we can't really say the same.
Did you seriously just try to equate Kobe's '02 Finals, where they beat up on a scrub team that had literally zero chance of beating them, with Shaq averaging his usual monster 36/12, to Wade's '06 where he dragged the Heat back from the dead virtually singlehandedly averaging 40 over the final 4 games outscoring Shaq by over 20 for the series?

That's one of the wildest takes I have ever read :lol With any context and frankly just by the statline those Finals are genuinely tiers apart.

And imho record aside, Jokic beating the Suns & Lakers in 2023 was as difficult as any pairing of teams Kobe beat on his way to the Finals from 08-10.

[Mask the Embiid]

lol. this would of actually angered me before the game 7 vs the thunder happened.

[Baller234]

As I said before. Being ranked 11th or 7th doesn't change anything about Kobe's skill or career. It's just how the creatora of such a list perceive his career.

Players mostly don't give a shit about "career" they see a player from a skill POV and ofc a contemporary will rank Kobe very high, but at the same time most contemporaries neglect the players who came before and do so for alot for the ones that came afterwards.

You'll have lists by players that are heavily biased towards their era and one maybe two idols they loved watching when they grew up. While players are surely more in touch of the game in itself journalists cover a way larger amount of time under the same conditions.

I think a mix of both views could be very accurate.

Lol.

So when someone dares to suggest that Kobe is better than you thought he was, it's because there's a secret agenda or bias. But when you guys suggest Kobe is some overrated hack, that's totally irrefutable because you guys just know more than everyone else.

Yolk is an amazing player and he would be great in any era, but you're comparing numbers across different timelines that have no business being compared in the first place. And even if you wanna argue that Yolk is the better offensive player, which is debatable, that still leaves defense. Kobe was elite on both sides of the ball. Yolk on defense is a sorry sack of shit and probably gives up 8-10 points a game due to sheer lack of effort.

Kobe never played in Yolk's era and Yolk never played in Kobe's, so we'll never know what their "numbers" would have been, nor do I care. I care about what they bring to the court as basketball players. Yolk is basically Larry Bird but with zero quickness and zero ability to penetrate. He's GREAT, but that's what he is. A bigger, a slower Larry Bird that is more limited 1 on 1 and doesn't play defense.

Meanwhile what's the worst thing you can say about Kobe. He has a bit of an ego and might take some ill advised shots. Okay fine, other than that he has no weaknesses or flaws in his game. Whatever perceived flaw you wanna harp on doesn't matter because ultimately it didn't matter. He won in spite of it.

[RRR3]

Lol.

So when someone dares to suggest that Kobe is better than you thought he was, it's because there's a secret agenda or bias. But when you guys suggest Kobe is some overrated hack, that's totally irrefutable because you guys just know more than everyone else.

Yolk is an amazing player and he would be great in any era, but you're comparing numbers across different timelines that have no business being compared in the first place. And even if you wanna argue that Yolk is the better offensive player, which is debatable, that still leaves defense. Kobe was elite on both sides of the ball. Yolk on defense is a sorry sack of shit and probably gives up 8-10 points a game due to sheer lack of effort.

Kobe never played in Yolk's era and Yolk never played in Kobe's, so we'll never know what their "numbers" would have been, nor do I care. I care about what they bring to the court as basketball players. Yolk is basically Larry Bird but with zero quickness and zero ability to penetrate. He's GREAT, but that's what he is. A bigger, a slower Larry Bird that is more limited 1 on 1 and doesn't play defense.

Meanwhile what's the worst thing you can say about Kobe. He has a bit of an ego and might take some ill advised shots. Okay fine, other than that he has no weaknesses or flaws in his game. Whatever perceived flaw you wanna harp on doesn't matter because ultimately it didn't matter. He won in spite of it.
All available data shows Kobe was a vastly overrated defender, frequently below average in fact.

[Baller234]

All available data shows Kobe was a vastly overrated defender, frequently below average in fact.

"All available data..."

Translation, shit I just pulled out of my ass.

Okay professor, show me what the data has to say about Yolk then. :oldlol:

[RRR3]

"All available data..."

Translation, shit I just pulled out of my ass.

Okay professor, show me what the data has to say about Yolk then. :oldlol:
I didn’t make up RAPM, xRAPM, or any similar stats. They are based on lineup data. You seem upset that Kobe had provably less impact than Jokic. Imagine Kobe trying to win a ring with the Nuggets roster in 2023, he would have lost in the first round lol.

[RRR3]

https://www.nbarapm.com/player/Kobe_Bryant

https://www.nbarapm.com/player/Nikola_Jokic




Not even close


Kobe was a dismal defender most years :(

[1987_Lakers]

As someone who watched Kobe's entire peak. His defense was very lazy at times. When focused, he was one of the best man defensive guards in the league, but this wasn't often. He was constantly over helping & gambling on defense and got burned for it time and time again. Like I said earlier, this was a known thing by pretty much any NBA fan who watched him play from about 2004-2013.

Detailed look at his defense at 17:50 mark

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jopi5e46PAY

I would also see quite a few threads on ISH discussing Kobe's overrated/bad defense at times, back when I first joined up until he retired.

[RRR3]

As someone who watched Kobe's entire peak. His defense was very lazy at times. When focused, he was one of the best man defensive guards in the league, but this wasn't often. He was constantly over helping & gambling on defense and got burned for it time and time again. Like I said earlier, this was a known thing by pretty much any NBA fan who watched him play from about 2004-2013.

Detailed look at his defense at 17:50 mark

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jopi5e46PAY

I would also see quite a few threads on ISH discussing Kobe's overrated/bad defense at times, back when I first joined up until he retired.
He could play good man defense but his team defense was often atrocious, and that's the more important aspect of defense. Bawler doesn't get this because he's low IQ and doesn't understand what he's watching.

[Baller234]

Uh, don't know how you could watch those clips and come out thinking Kobe's defense was LAZY. He's clearly giving an effort at all times. Helping requires effort, gambling and swiping requires effort. It doesn't always yield results but sometimes it does. The intent is there. Even at Kobe's worst he's either hounding you like a pest or helping out on D. He's setting the tone.

When you talk about guys who are LAZY on defense, you should be talking about Yolk. :oldlol:

[RRR3]

Uh, don't know how you could watch those clips and come out thinking Kobe's defense was LAZY. He's clearly giving an effort at all times. Helping requires effort, gambling and swiping requires effort. It doesn't always yield results but sometimes it does. The intent is there. Even at Kobe's worst he's either hounding you like a pest or helping out on D. He's setting the tone.

When you talk about guys who are LAZY on defense, you should be talking about Yolk. :oldlol:
Not gonna respond to my posts eh?

[RRR3]

Let's look at it this way bawler, just compare their skillset since you love skills so much. Jokic just has a better skillset even regardless of stats, it's funny you ignore that for a guy so focused on skills.

Scoring: Jokic
Rebounding: Jokic
Passing: Jokic
Perimeter defense: Kobe
Interior defense: Jokic
Ballhandling: Kobe
Shooting: Jokic
Playmaking: Jokic
IQ: Jokic
Post game: Jokic

[1987_Lakers]

Uh, don't know how you could watch those clips and come out thinking Kobe's defense was LAZY. He's clearly giving an effort at all times. Helping requires effort, gambling and swiping requires effort. It doesn't always yield results but sometimes it does. The intent is there. Even at Kobe's worst he's either hounding you like a pest or helping out on D. He's setting the tone.

When you talk about guys who are LAZY on defense, you should be talking about Yolk. :oldlol:

:oldlol:

This was a known thing. And to be honest, I don't really blame him. He had to conserve some energy on defense because he had such a big offensive role, especially when Shaq was gone. Phil Jackson most of the time would put Kobe on the weakest offensive player to conserve energy. He did this to MJ as he got older as well. Pretty much every great guard in history saw their defense suffer a little as their offense took off.

T-Mac was a solid defender when he was younger, by the time he was dominating in Orlando his defense was non existent at times. Harden was a solid defender in OKC, by the time he got to Houston he was atrocious on defense. When Kawhi peaked as an offensive player, he was no longer the defender he was in previous years. Stuff like this is very common among great scoring guards.

[j3lademaster]

Let's look at it this way bawler, just compare their skillset since you love skills so much. Jokic just has a better skillset even regardless of stats, it's funny you ignore that for a guy so focused on skills.

Scoring: Jokic
Rebounding: Jokic
Passing: Jokic
Perimeter defense: Kobe
Interior defense: Jokic
Ballhandling: Kobe
Shooting: Jokic
Playmaking: Jokic
IQ: Jokic
Post game: Jokic

If you break it down like that, then Curry would be a low tier star at best.

[RRR3]

:oldlol:

This was a known thing. And to be honest, I don't really blame him. He had to conserve some energy on defense because he had such big offensive role, especially when Shaq was gone. Phil Jackson most of the time would put Kobe on the weakest offensive player to conserve energy. He did this to MJ as he got older as well. Pretty much every great guard in history saw their defense suffer a little as their offense took off.

T-Mac was a solid defender when he was younger, by the time he was dominating in Orlando his defense was non existent at times. Harden was a solid defender in OKC, by the time he got to Houston he was atrocious on defense. When Kawhi peaked as an offensive player, he was no longer the defender he was in previous years. Stuff like this is very common among great scoring guards.
Phil was saying Kobe was overrated on defense back in 2004 lol. He wrote about it in his book.

[RRR3]

If you break it down like that, then Curry would be a low tier star at best.
I don't rank players like that but he's the one who keeps rambling about Kobe's supposed lack of flaws in the skill department. Jokic is just more skilled :confusedshrug: Plus the stat advantage is ridiculously in his favor. and he won a ring without an all-star teammate. Kobe never did that.

[Overdrive]

Uh, don't know how you could watch those clips and come out thinking Kobe's defense was LAZY. He's clearly giving an effort at all times. Helping requires effort, gambling and swiping requires effort. It doesn't always yield results but sometimes it does. The intent is there. Even at Kobe's worst he's either hounding you like a pest or helping out on D. He's setting the tone.

When you talk about guys who are LAZY on defense, you should be talking about Yolk. :oldlol:

So over multiple threads we found the two things Kobe was great at already:

Intent to play defense and missing beautiful shots.

[RRR3]

Klay Thompson has much worse drapm numbers than Kobe and you claim Klay is a great defender….lmfai

https://i.postimg.cc/fb21JMPr/IMG-7187.jpg
Klay is also overrated on defense. You happy? Now hit the meth pipe again, you know you want to.

[RRR3]

So over multiple threads we found the two things Kobe was great at already:

Intent to play defense and missing beautiful shots.
:roll: :roll: :roll:

[1987_Lakers]

Phil was saying Kobe was overrated on defense back in 2004 lol. He wrote about it in his book.

His biggest problem to me was his constant ball watching on defense, lots of times he would just focus on the offensive player who had the ball, even though he wasn't assigned to him. This led to many defensive breakdowns.

[RRR3]

His biggest problem to me was his constant ball watching on defense, lots of times he would just focus on the offensive player who had the ball, even though he wasn't assigned to him. This led to many defensive breakdowns.
How would you rate Kobe just speaking offense wise

[1987_Lakers]

How would you rate Kobe just speaking offense wise

As a straight up scorer, at his peak he was one of the best to ever do it. He scored 36% of the Lakers points during the '06 season. To put that into perspective, Wilt scored 40% of his team's points the year he averaged 50 PPG. And also keep in mind Wilt played 7.5 more MPG than Kobe did, which means Kobe's scoring season in '06 might actually be more impressive.

When he was on, he was very eye-pleasing to watch. He would hit a bunch of difficult shots that no player at the time could hit, I think that is one of the reasons why he was so popular, but that confidence he had would backfire because he would also take and miss those shots difficult shots lots of times. His overall offense when taking into account passing, decision making, & efficiency is where he falls below the other all-time great offensive players. He had skill in terms of ways he could score, but didn't have the offensive versatility of a Jokic or LeBron or even Bird.

[Baller234]

As a straight up scorer, at his peak he was one of the best to ever do it. He scored 36% of the Lakers points during the '06 season. To put that into perspective, Wilt scored 40% of his team's points the year he averaged 50 PPG. And also keep in mind Wilt played 7.5 more MPG than Kobe did, which means Kobe's scoring season in '06 might actually be more impressive.

When he was on, he was very eye-pleasing to watch. He would hit a bunch of difficult shots that no player at the time could hit, I think that is one of the reasons why he was so popular, but that confidence he had would backfire because he would also take and miss those shots difficult shots lots of times. His overall offense when taking into account passing, decision making, & efficiency is where he falls below the other all-time great offensive players. He had skill in terms of ways he could score, but didn't have the offensive versatility of a Jokic or LeBron or even Bird.

Guy said "even Bird" like Bird isn't unquestionably better than Yolk. :oldlol:

Bird is actually one of the few people who gives Kobe a run for his money in terms of 1 on 1 play. I would still probably give the edge to Kobe due to his athleticism but it's a worthwhile debate. I don't get mad when someone puts Bird #2 behind Jordan.

But Bird and Yolk isn't even a debate. Yolk is to Bird what Kobe is to Jordan. In fact the gap between Jordan and Kobe is probably smaller because Yolk can't score from anywhere from the court like Larry can.

[RRR3]

Guy said "even Bird" like Bird isn't unquestionably better than Yolk. :oldlol:

Bird is actually one of the few people who gives Kobe a run for his money in terms of 1 on 1 play. I would still probably give the edge to Kobe due to his athleticism but it's a worthwhile debate. I don't get mad when someone puts Bird #2 behind Jordan.

But Bird and Yolk isn't even a debate. Yolk is to Bird what Kobe is to Jordan. In fact the gap between Jordan and Kobe is probably smaller because Yolk can't score from anywhere from the court like Larry can.
Jokic and Bird is debatable peak wise. Kobe is about half as good as Jordan. You are delusional.

[Baller234]

Jokic and Bird is debatable peak wise. Kobe is about half as good as Jordan. You are delusional.

Hmm, I dunno guys.

Pat Riley, Dirk Nowitzki, Vince Carter, Steve Nash, T-Mac, Mark Jackson, Allen Iverson, Jason Kidd, Kevin Durant, Steve Nash, Grant Hill, Bonzi Wells, Chauncey Billups, Jamal Crawford, Ron Artest and Andre Iguodala...

or 3tard.

Whose basketball knowledge reigns supreme.

[RRR3]

Hmm, I dunno guys.

Pat Riley, Dirk Nowitzki, Vince Carter, Steve Nash, T-Mac, Mark Jackson, Allen Iverson, Jason Kidd, Kevin Durant, Steve Nash, Grant Hill, Bonzi Wells, Chauncey Billups, Jamal Crawford, Ron Artest and Andre Iguodala...

or 3tard.

Whose basketball knowledge reigns supreme.
Why are Kobe’s stats so inferior to Jordan’s? It’s not even close. Surely if he was close he would be in the ballpark. Literally all you have is opinions from people who are objectively wrong based on the facts. Kobe was nowhere near MJ you’re on crack if you think he was.

[Baller234]

Why are Kobe’s stats so inferior to Jordan’s? It’s not even close. Surely if he was close he would be in the ballpark.

Don't take it up with me, take it up with Pat Riley.

He must be a total schmuk that knows nothing about basketball.

[RRR3]

Don't take it up with me, take it up with Pat Riley.

He must be a total schmuk that knows nothing about basketball.
Poor poor POOR baby brained bawler. He can’t make his own arguments has to rely on quotes from others.

Let’s hear it. Let’s hear one argument from YOU. I bet you can’t do it because there’s no actual evidence supporting Kobe being that level of player.

[Baller234]

Poor poor POOR baby brained bawler. He can’t make his own arguments has to rely on quotes from others.

Let’s hear it. Let’s hear one argument from YOU. I bet you can’t do it because there’s no actual evidence supporting Kobe being that level of player.

Why do you care about my opinion? I've made case countless times for Kobe this last week. You've read all my posts. It's clear you don't value my opinion.

You don't even value Pat Riley's, why would you value mine? :oldlol:

3tard you are missing your calling. You have a knack for seeing the game in a way others cannot, not even the all time greats. You would be extremely valuable as a scout or an assistant coach. You're letting your talent and intelligence go to waste.

[RRR3]

Why do you care about my opinion? I've made case countless times for Kobe this last week. You've read all my posts. It's clear you don't value my opinion.

You don't even value Pat Riley's, why would you value mine? :oldlol:

3tard you are missing your calling. You have a knack for seeing the game in a way others cannot, not even the all time greats. You would be extremely valuable as a scout or an assistant coach. You're letting your talent and intelligence go to waste.
Your “case” for Kobe was a video clip of ONE shot he made :lol And then a bunch of opinions. I want facts. Why can’t you give me facts?

[j3lademaster]

Jokic and Bird is debatable peak wise. Kobe is about half as good as Jordan. You are delusional.

You can only grade them relative to their era or it won’t be fair, the modern player will always be better. That being said, Bird never had a 5 year stretch where he was the consensus bitw like Jokic. Since the 80’s, only MJ, Lebron and Jokic has done that- their peak isn’t very debatable. Bird has also had many, many times more playoff failures than Jokic as well, we sweep it under the rug because players weren’t put under a microscope back then.

[RRR3]

You can only grade them relative to their era or it won’t be fair, the modern player will always be better. That being said, Bird never had a 5 year stretch where he was the consensus bitw like Jokic. Since the 80’s, only MJ, Lebron and Jokic has done that- their peak isn’t very debatable. Bird has also had many, many times more playoff failures than Jokic as well, we sweep it under the rug because players weren’t put under a microscope back then.
Prepare for a bawler meltdown.

[SouBeachTalents]

You can only grade them relative to their era or it won’t be fair, the modern player will always be better. That being said, Bird never had a 5 year stretch where he was the consensus bitw like Jokic. Since the 80’s, only MJ, Lebron and Jokic has done that- their peak isn’t very debatable. Bird has also had many, many times more playoff failures than Jokic as well, we sweep it under the rug because players weren’t put under a microscope back then.
I've always said Bird had several pedestrian playoff performances for an ATG/top 10 player throughout his career. He's lucky he didn't play in the social media era where that shit would be far more documented and distributed amongst fans.

[j3lademaster]

I've always said Bird had several pedestrian playoff performances for an ATG/top 10 player throughout his career. He's lucky he didn't play in the social media era where that shit would be far more documented and distributed amongst fans.

He was a regular season phenom and serial playoff choker until 1984. And most people who actually watched back then say Moses was better in the early 80’s, just way less marketable than Bird vs Magic.

[SouBeachTalents]

He was a regular season phenom and serial playoff choker until 1984. And most people who actually watched back then say Moses was better in the early 80’s, just way less marketable than Bird vs Magic.
Even during his peak years he still had some pretty meh performances.

1985 ECF: 21/7/6 on 50%TS
1985 Finals: 24/9/5 on 53%TS
1987 Finals: 24/10/6 on 53%TS; 20/10/6 on 49%TS over the final 3 games
1988 ECF: 20/12/6 on 45%TS

LeBron would get eviscerated for series like that, and that's not even factoring in all the other very pedestrian performances he had throughout the first 4 years of his career. He gets a massive pass for that.

[j3lademaster]

Even during his peak years he still had some pretty meh performances.

1985 ECF: 21/7/6 on 50%TS
1985 Finals: 24/9/5 on 53%TS
1987 Finals: 24/10/6 on 53%TS; 20/10/6 on 49%TS over the final 3 games
1988 ECF: 20/12/6 on 45%TS

LeBron would get eviscerated for series like that, and that's not even factoring in all the other very pedestrian performances he had throughout the first 4 years of his career. He gets a massive pass for that.

Lebron would get eviscerated for averaging 28/8/8 on 60 ts losing in the second round at age 40. His expectations are unreal. Joker got destroyed for averaging 28/14/6 on 48/33/81 against a historically great defense that was willing to give up open corner 3’s in 2025 in order to triple him in the paint.

[tpols]

I'm a huge advocate for Yolk as GOAT. But... we did see old Dwight rattle him in 2020. What happens in the distant past where there were lots of Dwight physical types? The efficiency and production wouldn't be the same. And Kobes game wasnt tame. Hed eviscerate the current era harder than Jokic has.

[tontoz]

I'm a huge advocate for Yolk as GOAT. But... we did see old Dwight rattle him in 2020. What happens in the distant past where there were lots of Dwight physical types? The efficiency and production wouldn't be the same. And Kobes game wasnt tame. Hed eviscerate the current era harder than Jokic has.


Why do you keep repeating this nonsense? Jokic scored 22 PPG with a 61.6% TS against the Lakers which was more than he scored in the regular season. He just wasn't as aggressive looking to score back then.

And what were the names of these "Dwight physical types" that were allegedly so common years ago?

[tpols]

Why do you keep repeating this nonsense? Jokic scored 22 PPG with a 61.6% TS against the Lakers which was more than he scored in the regular season. He just wasn't as aggressive looking to score back then.

And what were the names of these "Dwight physical types" that were allegedly so common years ago?

22 ppg ain't enough chico.

Kobe on his worst day does that.

[Overdrive]

22 ppg ain't enough chico.

Kobe on his worst day does that.

Yeah on 45%TS maybe.

[tpols]

Yeah on 45%TS maybe.

Check previous posts. I'm a huge Jokic fan but he doesn't do what he does against other bruisers, a crowded paint, and a silent whistle.

Kobe? Ultimate smash mouth dunker, triangle orcestrator, and midrange clutch assassin.

:pimp:

Hold these cajones vato.

[tontoz]

22 ppg ain't enough chico.

Kobe on his worst day does that.


It was 2 points more than the regular season. He came into the league as a pass first player. It wasn't until the following season that he looked to score more aggressively.

So who were these "Dwight physical types" you keep talking about? Do they have names?

[RRR3]

Bawler ran away. Triggered :roll:

[1987_Lakers]

Yeah on 45%TS maybe.

:roll:

[1987_Lakers]

Guy said "even Bird" like Bird isn't unquestionably better than Yolk. :oldlol:

At their peaks, Jokic is better to be honest.

[RRR3]

At their peaks, Jokic is better to be honest.
Did you see him say bird could be ranked second all time? :oldlol: Dude is clueless.

[Baller234]

Things I've seen said about Yolk on this forum of so called experts:

- He's the greatest offensive player of all time, better than Jordan.
- He's in the discussion for greatest scorer of all time, easily better than Kobe.
- He's the greatest passer of all time, better than Magic.
- Larry Bird can't shine his shoes and there's no debate.

And this is all in like the last month or so.

And idiots wonder why I don't respond to every single asinine post where they pull some retarded frankenstein number out of their ass to prove their ridiculous point.

Might as well just close the book then. Yolk is the clear of goat of goats. He doesn't need to do anything further to prove himself. If he plays the rest of his days and never sniffs a conference final again, the "data" proves he's still the goat. The data that doesn't take era, circumstances OR intangibles into account. I guess Lebron made that "forever king" commercial a little too early. Even the chosen one is no match for the efficient one.

And while we're at it let's totally ignore the opinion of some of the greatest players and coaches to ever exist, because they're all just retarded stans who don't know how to decipher the data.

[1987_Lakers]

- He's the greatest offensive player of all time, better than Jordan.
Jordan and Jokic have a great argument for #1.


- He's in the discussion for greatest scorer of all time, easily better than Kobe.
He's a top tier scorer with legendary efficiency, but I wouldn't put him in the discussion for best scorer ever


- He's the greatest passer of all time, better than Magic.
Magic, Jokic, & Nash all have great arguments for greatest passer ever. Those are my top 3.


- Larry Bird can't shine his shoes and there's no debate.
Jokic is clearly a better offensive player & Bird's defense certainly isn't going to make up ground to put him ahead of Jokic as a player overall. Give me Jokic.

[RRR3]

Things I've seen said about Yolk on this forum of so called experts:

- He's the greatest offensive player of all time, better than Jordan.
- He's in the discussion for greatest scorer of all time, easily better than Kobe.
- He's the greatest passer of all time, better than Magic.
- Larry Bird can't shine his shoes and there's no debate.

And this is all in like the last month or so.

And idiots wonder why I don't respond to every single asinine post where they pull some retarded frankenstein number out of their ass to prove their ridiculous point.

Might as well just close the book then. Yolk is the clear of goat of goats. He doesn't need to do anything further to prove himself. If he plays the rest of his days and never sniffs a conference final again, the "data" proves he's still the goat. The data that doesn't take era, circumstances OR intangibles into account. I guess Lebron made that "forever king" commercial a little too early. Even the chosen one is no match for the efficient one.

And while we're at it let's totally ignore the opinion of some of the greatest players and coaches to ever exist, because they're all just retarded stans who don't know how to decipher the data.
You just created a bunch of strawmen because you can’t actually refute the facts.

[Baller234]

You just created a bunch of strawmen because you can’t actually refute the facts.

Kevin Durant is currently scoring with greater efficiency than he did when he was young and in his prime.

Kevin Durant who's 36 years old, played 17 seasons and suffered multiple significant injuries throughout his career including an achilles rupture.

[1987_Lakers]

He was a regular season phenom and serial playoff choker until 1984. And most people who actually watched back then say Moses was better in the early 80’s, just way less marketable than Bird vs Magic.

To be fair, he did average 27/13/5/2 on 49 fg% and outplayed MVP Julius Erving in their '81 ECF matchup and made a huge clutch shot in game 7 with a minute left to put the Celtics ahead.

But yea, dude had quite a few stinkers throughout his playoff career that never get discussed. Can't imagine the hate LeBron would get if he had the overall playoff resume of Bird. :lol

[1987_Lakers]

On a side note, the '81 ECF just might be the greatest series ever. And it never gets discussed. The series went 7 games and 5 of those games were decided by 2 points or less, including game 7.

[RRR3]

Kevin Durant is currently scoring with greater efficiency than he did when he was young and in his prime.

Kevin Durant who's 36 years old, played 17 seasons and suffered multiple significant injuries throughout his career including an achilles rupture.
Not relative to league average he’s not. What’s your point anyways? Even adjusted for era Jokic is a more impressive scorer than your hero.

[Hey Yo]

Wrong quote

[Baller234]

Not relative to league average he’s not. What’s your point anyways? Even adjusted for era Jokic is a more impressive scorer than your hero.

You claim to be smart.

The broken down hoopty verison of Durant is scoring more "efficiently" than the new ferrari version. Even though he's coming on 200k miles and running on damaged parts.

You tell me what you derive from that.

[Hey Yo]

Bawler ran away. Triggered :roll:

Midnight on a Wednesday

he ran away .... :lol

[j3lademaster]

Kevin Durant is currently scoring with greater efficiency than he did when he was young and in his prime.

Kevin Durant who's 36 years old, played 17 seasons and suffered multiple significant injuries throughout his career including an achilles rupture.

Admittedly, middies are easier to get these days which KD is all time elite at. He's also a 40% 3 point shooter that you have to close out on, so he can go under the closeout and take a mid range shot before help can come. Besides, the real defense comes playoff time that's why all of the scores get lower.

[Baller234]

Admittedly, middies are easier to get these days which KD is all time elite at. He's also a 40% 3 point shooter that you have to close out on, so he can go under the closeout and take a mid range shot before help can come. Besides, the real defense comes playoff time that's why all of the scores get lower.

And how was prime Kobe at getting "middies"?

I'm curious.

[j3lademaster]

To be fair, he did average 27/13/5/2 on 49 fg% and outplayed MVP Julius Erving in their '81 ECF matchup and made a huge clutch shot in game 7 with a minute left to put the Celtics ahead.

But yea, dude had quite a few stinkers throughout his playoff career that never get discussed. Can't imagine the hate LeBron would get if he had the overall playoff resume of Bird. :lol

That should be par for the course for someone that's top 10 caliber. And I take no pleasure pointing out Bird's faults as it feels like I'm shitting on him in a way. To me, his rivalry with Magic saved the league and opened the door to allow Jordan's marketing to build it into an iconic, global brand. But at the same time, as a fan of the sport it makes me sick when people discredit the now. If you're a true fan of basketball you should be able to appreciate its evolution.

[RRR3]

And how was prime Kobe at getting "middies"?

I'm curious.
Nowhere near as good as Durant.

Career 10-16 feet: Durant 48.1%, Kobe 43%

Long 2s: Durant 45.7%, Kobe 40.2%



As for your other point yeah league wide efficiency has gone up as teams have optimized their playstyles and some of Silver’s changes have hampered defenses. But you can adjust for that and still see Jokic is an easily superior offensive player to Kobe. Their impact stats aren’t close.

[tpols]

Nash offensive impact stats had to have been higher than Kobes as well I'd assume. He was leading #1 offense every single year. But in the playoffs Kobe outplayed him. I could see a similar thing happening with Jokic.

[RRR3]

Nash offensive impact stats had to have been higher than Kobes as well I'd assume. He was leading #1 offense every single year. But in the playoffs Kobe outplayed him. I could see a similar thing happening with Jokic.
Kobe once got outplayed by Austin Croshere.

[Baller234]

Nowhere near as good as Durant.

Career 10-16 feet: Durant 48.1%, Kobe 43%

Long 2s: Durant 45.7%, Kobe 40.2%



As for your other point yeah league wide efficiency has gone up as teams have optimized their playstyles and some of Silver’s changes have hampered defenses. But you can adjust for that and still see Jokic is an easily superior offensive player to Kobe. Their impact stats aren’t close.

2001-2004:

- Players faced zone coverage
- Handchecking and physicality allowed
- Minimal floor spacing

2025:

- Players face man coverage
- Minimal physicality is allowed
- Omnipresent floor spacing

And you think it's a totally smart idea to put these numbers side by side.

You definitely never played growing up. You were the water boy.

Go get the water bottles.

[j3lademaster]

Jordan and Jokic have a great argument for #1.


He's a top tier scorer with legendary efficiency, but I wouldn't put him in the discussion for best scorer ever


Magic, Jokic, & Nash all have great arguments for greatest passer ever. Those are my top 3.


Jokic is clearly a better offensive player & Bird's defense certainly isn't going to make up ground to put him ahead of Jokic as a player overall. Give me Jokic.I agree with all of that except for the Bird part. Their defense is comparable, and that's with me being charitable towards Bird because Jokic actually has very good defensive advanced stats and neither pass the eye test to be considered 'good'. And the more I'm going through some of these old articles the more it seems like Bird is actually overrated- he was relatable in his introverted personality and has really cool one-liner quotables- and guys like Moses Malone are very underrated these days. Bird just didn't seem to have a 5 year stretch where the majority of fans and media thought he was bitw. His dominance for his respective era just doesn't match Jokic's when you start putting Bird's career under a fraction of the microscope modern athletes are subjected to.

[RRR3]

2001-2004:

- Players faced zone coverage
- Handchecking and physicality allowed
- Minimal floor spacing

2025:

- Players face man coverage
- Minimal physicality is allowed
- Omnipresent floor spacing

And you think it's a totally smart idea to put these numbers side by side.

You definitely never played growing up. You were the water boy.

Go get the water bottles.
I mean if you honestly think Kobe is as good of a shooter as Durant just lol. You can give Kobe a boost for era and he'd still be behind.

[Hey Yo]

Admittedly, middies are easier to get these days which KD is all time elite at. He's also a 40% 3 point shooter that you have to close out on, so he can go under the closeout and take a mid range shot before help can come. Besides, the real defense comes playoff time that's why all of the scores get lower.

When talking 2pt and 3pt shots....KD's the greatest shooter of all time

[j3lademaster]

And how was prime Kobe at getting "middies"?

I'm curious.

He would eat. You're talking to a guy who idolized Kobe growing up, who almost broke his jumpshot in high school trying to imitate Kobe's form.

But you would also have to acknowledge that it's much harder to play defense today since this isn't football where players only play one side of the ball. It's way more physically and mentally taxing which is why modern stars are only playing lower minutes and load managing their amount of games.

[j3lademaster]

When talking 2pt and 3pt shots....KD's the greatest shooter of all time

When factoring size and the ease he gets those shots in a game- I absolutely agree.

[1987_Lakers]

Nash offensive impact stats had to have been higher than Kobes as well I'd assume. He was leading #1 offense every single year. But in the playoffs Kobe outplayed him. I could see a similar thing happening with Jokic.

Hard to say Kobe straight up outplayed him in their '06 matchup. Could make an argument for both.

That game 6 was a heart break loss for me. I remember that game clearly. Tim Thomas hit a huge shot to send it to OT.

[tontoz]

When talking 2pt and 3pt shots....KD's the greatest shooter of all time


Sure let's just ignore that Stephs career EFG is 3% higher. :facepalm

[j3lademaster]

Sure let's just ignore that Stephs career EFG is 3% higher. :facepalm

I think he meant combination of midrange 2's and 3's.

[Baller234]

He would eat. You're talking to a guy who idolized Kobe growing up, who almost broke his jumpshot in high school trying to imitate Kobe's form.

But you would also have to acknowledge that it's much harder to play defense today since this isn't football where players only play one side of the ball. It's way more physically and mentally taxing which is why modern stars are only playing lower minutes and load managing their amount of games.

Kobe in his prime was a great athlete, I'm pretty sure he could play defense in 2025. Either way, you know he's gonna give it 100% on both sides of the ball. You're a Kobe fan so you should know.

And like I said multiple times, I was NOT a Kobe fan growing up. But you still have to respect the man's game. People assume that I'm going this hard because I'm a Kobe stan but I'm really just doing it out of respect. It's actually blasphemous the way these young kids like 3tard talk. So eager to crown guys who haven't done shit yet.

[1987_Lakers]

I agree with all of that except for the Bird part. Their defense is comparable, and that's with me being charitable towards Bird because Jokic actually has very good defensive advanced stats and neither pass the eye test to be considered 'good'. And the more I'm going through some of these old articles the more it seems like Bird is actually overrated- he was relatable in his introverted personality and has really cool one-liner quotables- and guys like Moses Malone are very underrated these days. Bird just didn't seem to have a 5 year stretch where the majority of fans and media thought he was bitw. His dominance for his respective era just doesn't match Jokic's when you start putting Bird's career under a fraction of the microscope modern athletes are subjected to.

My point was, even if you think Bird is the better defender, it isn't going to make up ground because Jokic's offense is simply on another level. Bird actually made an All-Defensive Team one year and was always known as a good team defender and even a solid post defender, but his defense wasn't anything to go crazy over. His man defense on the perimeter was always suspect.

[Hey Yo]

Sure let's just ignore that Stephs career EFG is 3% higher. :facepalm

He's more a 3pt specialist who hasn't taken enough mid range shots to claim he's the best all around shooter.

2pt only = MJ
3pt = Steph
anywhere inside 28ft = KD

[Baller234]

My point was, even if you think Bird is the better defender, it isn't going to make up ground because Jokic's offense is simply on another level. Bird actually made an All-Defensive Team one year and was always known as a good team defender and even a solid post defender, but his defense wasn't anything to go crazy over. His man defense on the perimeter was always suspect.

Suspect?

What does that say about Yolk's defense then?

[RRR3]

Kobe in his prime was a great athlete, I'm pretty sure he could play defense in 2025. Either way, you know he's gonna give it 100% on both sides of the ball. You're a Kobe fan so you should know.

And like I said multiple times, I was NOT a Kobe fan growing up. But you still have to respect the man's game. People assume that I'm going this hard because I'm a Kobe stan but I'm really just doing it out of respect. It's actually blasphemous the way these young kids like 3tard talk. So eager to crown guys who haven't done shit yet.
Kobe didn't give 100% on defense when he did play but sure he'd magically do it now when it requires even more effort. Mamba mythologists at it again.

Jokic hasn't done shit? He's already led his team to a ring in a fashion Kobe simply couldn't have done. You seriously think Kobe wins on the 23 Nuggets in place of Jokic? :oldlol: It's not my fault you hate stats and buy into ESPN narratives, the fact is Kobe is the only guy we are supposed to just ignore stats for, all the other players who get ranked that highly, advanced stats love them. Maybe, just maybe, Kobe was overrated.

[1987_Lakers]

Suspect?

What does that say about Yolk's defense then?

Nobody here is calling Jokic a Hakeem level defender. If that was the case, he would be the clear GOAT.

[Baller234]

Kobe didn't give 100% on defense when he did play but sure he'd magically do it now when it requires even more effort. Mamba mythologists at it again.

Jokic hasn't done shit? He's already led his team to a ring in a fashion Kobe simply couldn't have done. You seriously think Kobe wins on the 23 Nuggets in place of Jokic? :oldlol: It's not my fault you hate stats and buy into ESPN narratives, the fact is Kobe is the only guy we are supposed to just ignore stats for, all the other players who get ranked that highly, advanced stats love them. Maybe, just maybe, Kobe was overrated.

You can't just replace Yolk with Kobe because Murray's game doesn't mesh with Kobe's. That would be like pairing Yolk with Gasol.

But if you replaced Murray with Kobe, and then gave him a decent big man that's around equal to Murray in value, then of course he has a shot to win with that roster. None of Kobe's championships teams ever had that kind of firepower. Kobe was never on a team where four guys can go off for 20 in the same game.

And for the third time, don't take it up with me, take it up with Pat Riley. The schmuck that doesn't know anything about basketball.

[RRR3]

You can't just replace Yolk with Kobe because Murray's game doesn't mesh with Kobe's. That would be like pairing Yolk with Gasol.

But if you replaced Murray with Kobe, and then gave him a decent big man that's around equal to Murray in value, then of course he has a shot to win with that roster. None of Kobe's championships teams ever had that kind of firepower. Kobe was never on a team where four guys can go off for 20 in the same game.

And for the third time, don't take it up with me, take it up with Pat Riley. The schmuck that doesn't know anything about basketball.
Four guys could go off for 20 in the same game on the 23 nuggets besides Jokic and Murray? :oldlol: WHO????

Sorry bub but Kobe only won when he had a clear advantage over other teams talent wise with the exception of I guess 2010 (but he played like crap in that series so it’s weird to give him too much credit). There’s no reason to think he carries a cast to a ring like Jokic did because he simply never did that.

[Baller234]

Nobody here is calling Jokic a Hakeem level defender. If that was the case, he would be the clear GOAT.

So on a scale of 1-10.

Lets' say Bird is at worst a 7. At worst he's a somewhat mobile 6'10'' body who's GOING to give the effort. He WILL get physical and he WILL help.

What's Yolk then... a negative 3?? :oldlol:

In all seriousness though, in this space and pace small ball era where shooting and speed is the name of the game he's like a 4. He doesn't even TRY on some possessions, KEY possessions. Because he CAN'T. He's too BIG and too SLOW.

[tontoz]

He's more a 3pt specialist who hasn't taken enough mid range shots to claim he's the best all around shooter.

2pt only = MJ
3pt = Steph
anywhere inside 28ft = KD

Moving this goalposts? This is what you said.


Quote Originally Posted by Hey Yo View Post
When talking 2pt and 3pt shots....KD's the greatest shooter of all time


EFG takes into account 2s and 3s and Steph's EFG is is 2.8% higher. :pimp:

[tontoz]

https://hosting.photobucket.com/61c9c379-dc9e-4342-8972-a3c17258e5a1/f4bc5238-05ba-457a-ac59-9d919480c0c3.png

[Hey Yo]

Moving this goalposts? This is what you said.




EFG takes into account 2s and 3s and Steph's EFG is is 2.8% higher. :pimp:

Only 7% of Curry's career shots are mid-range compared to KD at 21%. Last time Curry took more 2pa than 3's was 2015... which isn't a bad thing for him. He's the best 3pt shooter in history and should be taking more 3's than 2's, but his claim to best all around sailed due to his shot selection being so lopsided. It's not his fault, that's just the way the league shifted.

[Hey Yo]

https://hosting.photobucket.com/61c9c379-dc9e-4342-8972-a3c17258e5a1/f4bc5238-05ba-457a-ac59-9d919480c0c3.png

Lemme guess.... you think that's 5 on 1 lol

It's actually 2 on 1 with only 4 GS players visible.

[1987_Lakers]

So on a scale of 1-10.

Lets' say Bird is at worst a 7. At worst he's a somewhat mobile 6'10'' body who's GOING to give the effort. He WILL get physical and he WILL help.

What's Yolk then... a negative 3?? :oldlol:

In all seriousness though, in this space and pace small ball era where shooting and speed is the name of the game he's like a 4. He doesn't even TRY on some possessions, KEY possessions. Because he CAN'T. He's too BIG and too SLOW.

You are overstating how bad Jokic is as a defender. I don't think he's anywhere near the other all-time great centers on that end, he doesn't have the athletic ability to contest shots at the rim due to his poor vertical, but he's a smart defender with very good hands, he's always near the top of the league in overall deflections and always makes the right rotations.

I would say he is an average to above average defender, which is around what Bird was during his peak. You could argue Bird was the better defender, but it certainly is not going to make up the advantage Jokic has on offense.

[Baller234]

Four guys could go off for 20 in the same game on the 23 nuggets besides Jokic and Murray? :oldlol: WHO????.

Uh...

https://www.espn.co.uk/nba/boxscore/_/gameId/401704760
https://www.espn.com/nba/game/_/gameId/401705731/nuggets-kings

Two games where Nuggets had four guys score 20 more more. In one of those games Pickett who's 5th in scoring has 18.

This isn't exclusive to Denver btw. Warriors did it this season as well. Butler who was 5th in scoring also had 17.

https://www.espn.com/nba/boxscore/_/gameId/401705371

This would have been unheard of back then. It wouldn't be possible. Now you have bench guys who come in and can light it up for 40. That's the league now.

Kobe NEVER had anything like this on his championships teams. Yolk the efficient one is NOT getting 20 points from THREE other players on ANY of those laker teams. Definitely not in that time period either.

:oldlol:

[Baller234]

You are overstating how bad Jokic is as a defender. I don't think he's anywhere near the other all-time great centers on that end, he doesn't have the athletic ability to contest shots at the rim due to his poor vertical, but he's a smart defender with very good hands, he's always near the top of the league in overall deflections and always makes the right rotations.

I would say he is an average to above average defender, which is around Bird was during his peak. You could argue Bird was the better defender, but it certainly is not going to make up the advantage Jokic has on offense.

Bro did you watch the playoffs???

MULTIPLE instances of him giving zero effort and watching guys blow by him or score on second chance opportunities.

[tontoz]

Only 7% of Curry's career shots are mid-range compared to KD at 21%. Last time Curry took more 2pa than 3's was 2015... which isn't a bad thing for him. He's the best 3pt shooter in history and should be taking more 3's than 2's, but his claim to best all around sailed due to his shot selection being so lopsided. It's not his fault, that's just the way the league shifted.


So are you saying that shots 10-16 feet at the only 2 point shots that count? What about shots from 16 feet to the 3 pt line? Do they not count? What about shots inside 10 feet?

Steph has been in the league 16 years. I think the sample size is pretty big at this point.

[tontoz]

Lemme guess.... you think that's 5 on 1 lol

It's actually 2 on 1 with only 4 GS players visible.

The picture is self explanatory. All 5 defenders are looking at Steph and ignoring a wide open KD.

[RRR3]

Uh...

https://www.espn.co.uk/nba/boxscore/_/gameId/401704760
https://www.espn.com/nba/game/_/gameId/401705731/nuggets-kings

Two games where Nuggets had four guys score 20 more more. In one of those games Pickett who's 5th in scoring has 18.

This isn't exclusive to Denver btw. Warriors did it this season as well. Butler who was 5th in scoring also had 17.

https://www.espn.com/nba/boxscore/_/gameId/401705371

This would have been unheard of back then. It wouldn't be possible. Now you have bench guys who come in and can light it up for 40. That's the league now.

Kobe NEVER had anything like this on his championships teams. Yolk the efficient one is NOT getting 20 points from THREE other players on ANY of those laker teams. Definitely not in that time period either.

:oldlol:
First of all those are games from 2025 not 2023. Secondly why are you cherry picking individual games from role players as if that means anything? Overall those guys are nobodies. Furthermore You really think any of those guys would even see the ball enough to score 20 ever with Kobe hogging it?

[Baller234]

First of all those are games from 2025 not 2023. Secondly why are you cherry picking individual games from role players as if that means anything? Overall those guys are nobodies. Furthermore You really think any of those guys would even see the ball enough to score 20 ever with Kobe hogging it?

Everyone in the lineup is a threat to score today. That WASN'T the case back then.

Kobe won on teams where he had a MUCH greater burden to carry offensively. He's also won on teams where SHAQ carried the burden offensively. He's won leading in front and also leading from the back. FIVE times.

I'm pretty sure he could manage on a team where EVERYONE can score. :oldlol:

[1987_Lakers]

Bro did you watch the playoffs???

MULTIPLE instances of him giving zero effort and watching guys blow by him or score on second chance opportunities.

There are holes in his defense, I believe he still led all his teammates in Defensive Rating for the entire regular season & playoffs last season. Someone who is horrific on defense is not going to do that.

Bird getting blown by was a common occurrence for him, there is a reason why McHale was the one who usually guarded the athletic small forwards on the perimeter instead of Bird.

[RRR3]

Everyone in the lineup is a threat to score today. That WASN'T the case back then.

Kobe won on teams where he had a MUCH greater burden to carry offensively. He's also won on teams where SHAQ carried the burden offensively. He's won leading in front and also leading from the back. FIVE times.

I'm pretty sure he could manage on a team where EVERYONE can score. :oldlol:
You are cherry picking individual games to claim scrubs like Jalen Pickett can score :oldlol:
He averaged FOUR ppg. And no sorry Kobe has never been tasked with the same responsibilities in terms of playmaking as Jokic is. He was too busy forcing up contested shots. Jokic can win a game with his passing alone. Kobe couldn’t do that.

[j3lademaster]

Does it have to be 20+ per player for 4 guys?

https://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/201211300LAL.html

Dwight with 28, Jamison with 33, Meeks with 21, Metta with 10… not 20 apiece but the average among the 4 is well over 20.

You can probably cherry pick games like these for anyone.

[Baller234]

You are cherry picking individual games to claim scrubs like Jalen Pickett can score :oldlol:
He averaged FOUR ppg. And no sorry Kobe has never been tasked with the same responsibilities in terms of playmaking as Jokic is. He was too busy forcing up contested shots. Jokic can win a game with his passing alone. Kobe couldn’t do that.

That series against OKC was winnable. Denver lost because of bad defense and no one being able to close down the stretch.

So clearly Yolk can't elevate the team to victory just with his passing.

[RRR3]

That series against OKC was winnable. Denver lost because of bad defense and no one being able to close down the stretch.

So clearly Yolk can't elevate the team to victory just with his passing.
So Kobe never lost winnable series? Plus the Thunder were a ridiculously good team no shame in losing to them

[Baller234]

Does it have to be 20+ per player for 4 guys?

https://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/201211300LAL.html

Dwight with 28, Jamison with 33, Meeks with 21, Metta with 10… not 20 apiece but the average among the 4 is well over 20.

You can probably cherry pick games like these for anyone.

Lmao, how is that the same??

- Three guys going for 20+ and one guy going for 10

- Four guys going for 20+ and one guy going for 18

NOT the same.

[Baller234]

So Kobe never lost winnable series? Plus the Thunder were a ridiculously good team no shame in losing to them

If you watched those games, you saw that Denver couldn't score or close down the stretch.

I mean you did watch the games right?

[RRR3]

If you watched those games, you saw that Denver couldn't score or close down the stretch.

I mean you did watch the games right?
Yes I watched them, Kobe wouldn’t have beat the Thunder either unless he had shaq.

So your position is that replacing Jokic with a less gifted offensive player in Kobe somehow makes it easier for their offense. Because mamba mentality or something. **** stats they’re Kobe haters.

[tontoz]

That series against OKC was winnable. Denver lost because of bad defense and no one being able to close down the stretch.

So clearly Yolk can't elevate the team to victory just with his passing.


Or maybe they lost game 7 because 2 of their starters were playing with injuries they would never play with during the regular season.

MPJ played the whole series with 1 arm. For the series he scored only 7.4 ppg with a 42% TS.

[RRR3]

Or maybe they lost game 7 because 2 of their starters were playing with injuries they would never play with during the regular season.

MPJ played the whole series with 1 arm. For the series he scored only 7.4 ppg with a 42% TS.
Don’t you know Jokic had studs like Jalen Pickett? Kobe never had help like that.

[tpols]

It wasnt Jokic fault getting locked up by Caruso, it was the terrible spacing from westbrick mostly.

But what people dont realize is Kobe played in an era where a lot of role players were westbrick level spacing and shooting long range. So Kobe had to deal with that shit spacing his entire career. Yolk had to do it for 1 game.

You give Kobe 5 point spacing? Its a wrap. Look at SGA. A skinny small effeminate version of Kobe. Puts up prime MJ numbers and even better efficiency in the playoffs last year.

What does that say?

[Baller234]

Yes I watched them, Kobe wouldn’t have beat the Thunder either unless he had shaq.

So your position is that replacing Jokic with a less gifted offensive player in Kobe somehow makes it easier for their offense. Because mamba mentality or something. **** stats they’re Kobe haters.

So if Yolk is so gifted, and he has all these great shooters, and he can win purely with his passing... how come they didn't win?

And if Yolk is so unstoppable as a scorer, why wasn't he more agressive in those spots? Why so passive? Why so ineffective?

[tontoz]

It wasnt Jokic fault getting locked up by Caruso, it was the terrible spacing from westbrick mostly.

But what people dont realize is Kobe played in an era where a lot of role players were westbrick level spacing and shooting long range. So Kobe had to deal with that shit spacing his entire career. Yolk had to do it for 1 game.

You give Kobe 5 point spacing? Its a wrap. Look at SGA. A skinny small effeminate version of Kobe. Puts up prime MJ numbers and even better efficiency in the playoffs last year.

What does that say?


Kobe was part of the reason the Lakers had bad spacing. His 33% from 3 wasnt bending any defenses.

[tontoz]

So if Yolk is so gifted, and he has all these great shooters, and he can win purely with his passing... how come they didn't win?

And if Yolk is so unstoppable as a scorer, why wasn't he more agressive in those spots? Why so passive? Why so ineffective?


Jokic had 18 pts in the 4th quarter of game 1 against OKC in a 2 pt win. I wouldnt call that passive and ineffective.

[RRR3]

So if Yolk is so gifted, and he has all these great shooters, and he can win purely with his passing... how come they didn't win?

And if Yolk is so unstoppable as a scorer, why wasn't he more agressive in those spots? Why so passive? Why so ineffective?
Who said he had so many great shooters? His teammates were pretty beat up and it’s not like he has a particularly notable cast for an ATG as is. How come Kobe was so inefficient almost always in the finals if he was so unstoppable?

[Baller234]

Who said he had so many great shooters? His teammates were pretty beat up and it’s not like he has a particularly notable cast for an ATG as is. How come Kobe was so inefficient almost always in the finals if he was so unstoppable?

3tard:

"He can win with just his passing!"

Also 3tard:

"His teammates didn't play up to par!"


:oldlol:

[tpols]

Kobe was part of the reason the Lakers had bad spacing. His 33% from 3 wasnt bending any defenses.

Of course it was. Kobe was guarded chest to chest everywhere outside as well. He was the teams designated bailout guy if the shotclock was too low though. So it dinged his % a bit. His raw shooting was heavily respected though. Youre coming off as an autistic or perhaps mentally handicapped in some sort of way to suggest otherwise.

[RRR3]

3tard:

"He can win with just his passing!"

Also 3tard:

"His teammates didn't play up to par!"


:oldlol:
I get that you’re shockingly stupid but clearly I meant Jokic can win a game with just his passing as he’s done many times before. Why are you using a series in which he lost to a team better by net rating than Kobe ever faced to prove anything? Kobe quite literally never played a team as good as OKC last year if we go by net rating. You could argue the 08 Celtics but Kobe pooped his pants against them so…

[tpols]

Look at how they guarded Kobe deep.


https://youtu.be/79y_YCkHhso?si=C_ScpirZnO2uUewu

Chest to chest everywhere. To suggest Kobe wasnt a shooting or spacing threat is an insanity I'd never thought would be uttered. But this is Insidehoops. :lol

A magical land.

[j3lademaster]

It wasnt Jokic fault getting locked up by Caruso, it was the terrible spacing from westbrick mostly.

But what people dont realize is Kobe played in an era where a lot of role players were westbrick level spacing and shooting long range. So Kobe had to deal with that shit spacing his entire career. Yolk had to do it for 1 game.

You give Kobe 5 point spacing? Its a wrap. Look at SGA. A skinny small effeminate version of Kobe. Puts up prime MJ numbers and even better efficiency in the playoffs last year.

What does that say?
I think you’re REALLY downplaying how good SGA is.

[RRR3]

I think you’re REALLY downplaying how good SGA is.
I mean the only way to delude yourself into thinking Kobe is a GOAT candidate is to downplay about 15 other players minimum.

[SouBeachTalents]

Look at how they guarded Kobe deep.


https://youtu.be/79y_YCkHhso?si=C_ScpirZnO2uUewu

Chest to chest everywhere. To suggest Kobe wasnt a shooting or spacing threat is an insanity I'd never thought would be uttered. But this is Insidehoops. :lol

A magical land.
Tbf you're using an example where they literally needed a 3 to tie the game in the final seconds. Even Westbrook gets defended like that in a similar situation.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zwl7rsnzlbE&ab_channel=NotCHILL

[Baller234]

I get that you’re shockingly stupid but clearly I meant Jokic can win a game with just his passing as he’s done many times before. Why are you using a series in which he lost to a team better by net rating than Kobe ever faced to prove anything? Kobe quite literally never played a team as good as OKC last year if we go by net rating. You could argue the 08 Celtics but Kobe pooped his pants against them so…

Once again you're a retard.

All of the teams now are constructed in a way where they would all beat the teams of the past. OKC being better than the teams Kobe faced means nothing because Denver is also better than those teams. It's all relative.

Denver doesn't win the championship if not for Murray being able to take over 1 on 1. That's just a fact. Yolk was the MVP that series sure but Murray was an extremely important piece of the equation. He was the closer in some of those games. In one game he put up 34/10/10... the 2nd best player on the team. :oldlol:

So you keep saying "Yolk can win with just passing!"... but is that reality? HAVE we seen it??

Because from my experience watching them, when the other guys don't show up and aren't shooting well... Denver doesn't win. You said so yourself.

:oldlol:

[tontoz]

Of course it was. Kobe was guarded chest to chest everywhere outside as well. He was the teams designated bailout guy if the shotclock was too low though. So it dinged his % a bit. His raw shooting was heavily respected though. Youre coming off as an autistic or perhaps mentally handicapped in some sort of way to suggest otherwise.

LOL Every number one option takes last second heaves. Jokic takes them beyond half court all the time. One time i saw him try to shoot from full court just by slapping the ball the length of the court because he didn't have time to catch it.

Defenses definitely were more worried about Kobe taking it to the basket than shooting 3s. They weren't trying to run Kobe off the line they way they do with guys who shoot 3s well. They would certainly try to contest after he went up for a shot but when Kobe took a long jumper that was a win for the defense.

[tpols]

I think you’re REALLY downplaying how good SGA is.

I'm really not.

He is great but hes a weaker effeminate Kobe. Kobe had the same midrange skills or better, plus he could slam on you around the rim mixtape poster style where as SGA cant at all and flops in the paint instead of being a man. SGA... by comparison is like the gay Kobe. Worse passer and defender as well.

Yet in today's era SGA outshoots MJ, Kobe, and Wade efficiency wise. Hes not better than any of them though and you'd have to be Ray Charles to not see it.

[Hey Yo]

So are you saying that shots 10-16 feet at the only 2 point shots that count? What about shots from 16 feet to the 3 pt line? Do they not count? What about shots inside 10 feet?

Steph has been in the league 16 years. I think the sample size is pretty big at this point.

Of course all shots count, but his sample sizes are minute compared to his 3pa %. His size and amazing ability to shoot the 3's is what has kept him from taking more shots inside the arc. Like I said, it's not his fault it's just the way it panned out.

Been in the league 16yrs but all shot attempt %'s inside the arc combined doesn't pass the 52% of his shots coming from 3

[RRR3]

Once again you're a retard.

All of the teams now are constructed in a way where they would all beat the teams of the past. OKC being better than the teams Kobe faced means nothing because Denver is also better than those teams. It's all relative.

Denver doesn't win the championship if not for Murray being able to take over 1 on 1. That's just a fact. Yolk was the MVP that series sure but Murray was an extremely important piece of the equation. He was the closer in some of those games. In one game he put up 34/10/10... the 2nd best player on the team. :oldlol:

So you keep saying "Yolk can win with just passing!"... but is that reality? HAVE we seen it??

Because from my experience watching them, when the other guys don't show up and aren't shooting well... Denver doesn't win. You said so yourself.

:oldlol:
Pau arguably should have been FMVP in the 2010 finals so it’s hilarious you’re hung up on Murray who’s never even been an allstar. Furthermore his stats are worse when Jokic isn’t on the court. So yeah Jokic’s passing is helping him a lot. And I never said Jokic could win a ring just by passing alone you’re twisting things like you always do because it enrages you Jokic is so much better than your hero. I said he can win a game with passing.

[RRR3]

I'm really not.

He is great but hes a weaker effeminate Kobe. Kobe had the same midrange skills or better, plus he could slam on you around the rim mixtape poster style where as SGA cant at all and flops in the paint instead of being a man. SGA... by comparison is like the gay Kobe. Worse passer and defender as well.

Yet in today's era SGA outshoots MJ, Kobe, and Wade efficiency wise. Hes not better than any of them though and you'd have to be Ray Charles to not see it.
SGA is better than Kobe gramps hate to break it to you. Your boy just didn’t have that high of a peak when it comes down to the stats you love.

[Hey Yo]

The picture is self explanatory. All 5 defenders are looking at Steph and ignoring a wide open KD.

Defenders looking at the ball handler is nothing new.

[Baller234]

I'm really not.

He is great but hes a weaker effeminate Kobe. Kobe had the same midrange skills or better, plus he could slam on you around the rim mixtape poster style where as SGA cant at all and flops in the paint instead of being a man. SGA... by comparison is like the gay Kobe. Worse passer and defender as well.

Yet in today's era SGA outshoots MJ, Kobe, and Wade efficiency wise. Hes not better than any of them though and you'd have to be Ray Charles to not see it.

Co-signed

SGA is amazing, but he's not Kobe. At least not yet.

SGA can create off the dribble with the best of them. Kobe can create off the catch. Kobe can create separation without dribbling.

[RRR3]

Co-signed

SGA is amazing, but he's not Kobe. At least not yet.

SGA can create off the dribble with the best of them. Kobe can create off the catch. Kobe can create separation without dribbling.
SGA just had a better season than Kobe ever did. Take off the nostalgia goggles.

[tontoz]

Of course all shots count, but his sample sizes are minute compared to his 3pa %. His size and amazing ability to shoot the 3's is what has kept him from taking more shots inside the arc. Like I said, it's not his fault it's just the way it panned out.

Been in the league 16yrs but all shot attempt %'s inside the arc combined doesn't pass the 52% of his shots coming from 3



21% of Steph's shots for his career came from 10 feet out to the 3 pt line. If that isn't a valid sample size then KD's 3 pt sample size isn't valid either.

[tontoz]

Defenders looking at the ball handler is nothing new.


Not all 5 of them while ignoring "the best shooter in history" :lol that is wide open.

[Baller234]

Pau arguably should have been FMVP in the 2010 finals so it’s hilarious you’re hung up on Murray who’s never even been an allstar. Furthermore his stats are worse when Jokic isn’t on the court. So yeah Jokic’s passing is helping him a lot. And I never said Jokic could win a ring just by passing alone you’re twisting things like you always do because it enrages you Jokic is so much better than your hero. I said he can win a game with passing.


You are cherry picking individual games to claim scrubs like Jalen Pickett can score :oldlol:
He averaged FOUR ppg. And no sorry Kobe has never been tasked with the same responsibilities in terms of playmaking as Jokic is. He was too busy forcing up contested shots. Jokic can win a game with his passing alone. Kobe couldn’t do that.

So then what was the point in bringing it up then? Who cares if Yolk can win a game here and there, we're talking about playoff runs. We're talking about rangz.

Kobe proved on multiple occasions that he can lead a contender so long as he has another guy in the lineup who could score and alleviate some pressure. Pau was great for the Lakers but he was always Plan B when Plan A didn't work. Thankfully he came through for them. More often than not though Plan A worked. Five rangz. Seven finals.

Yolk can be the leader for 3.5 quarters, but he's never proven he can be THE GUY to dominate down the stretch. That's why Jamal Murray was so important for them. In some of those games you can't deny that he was Plan A.

But when JAMAL MURRAY is your Plan A over Yolk, that pretty much disqualifies him from being in the same discussion as a scorer with Kobe.

:oldlol:

[RRR3]

So then what was the point in bringing it up then? Who cares if Yolk can win a game here and there, we're talking about playoff runs. We're talking about rangz.

Kobe proved on multiple occasions that he can lead a contender so long as he has another guy in the lineup who could score and alleviate some pressure. Pau was great for the Lakers but he was always Plan B when Plan A didn't work. Thankfully he came through for them. More often than not though Plan A worked. Five rangz. Seven finals.

Yolk can be the leader for 3.5 quarters, but he's never proven he can be THE GUY to dominate down the stretch. That's why Jamal Murray was so important for them. In some of those games you can't deny that he was Plan A.

But when JAMAL MURRAY is your Plan A over Yolk, that pretty much disqualifies him from being in the same discussion as a scorer with Kobe.

:oldlol:
Jokic outscores Murray what are you talking about? You’re cherry picking games where Murray gets hot to try and act like Jokic isn’t their first option. It’s incredibly disingenuous. Meanwhile most of Kobe’s rings he was the Jamal Murray to Shaq’s Jokic :lol

[tpols]

A lot of these Lebron stans lost their nut over Paus 18/10 but want to disparage Murray putting up a Michael Jordan line. :lol

Too funny.

And the ultimate irony is Murray did it vs Lebrons Lakers so they had a front row seat. They watched it.

[RRR3]

A lot of these Lebron stans lost their nut over Paus 18/10 but want to disparage Murray putting up a Michael Jordan line. :lol

Too funny.

And the ultimate irony is Murray did it vs Lebrons Lakers so they had a front row seat.
Jamal Murray has never even been an allstar. Pau is in the HOF. levels to this shit.

[tontoz]

A lot of these Lebron stans lost their nut over Paus 18/10 but want to disparage Murray putting up a Michael Jordan line. :lol

Too funny.

And the ultimate irony is Murray did it vs Lebrons Lakers so they had a front row seat. They watched it.



Murrray's best playoff run doesn't even equal the career playoff average for Jokic.

[tpols]

Jamal Murray has never even been an allstar. Pau is in the HOF. levels to this shit.

Jamal Murray averaged 33/6/5 on sniper 53/41/95 splits.

:biggums:

Thats better than Kobe AND Jordan. And he did it against your boy.

You saw it.

[RRR3]

Jamal Murray averaged 33/6/5 on sniper 53/41/95 splits.

:biggums:

Thats better than Kobe AND Jordan. And he did it against your boy.

You saw it.
That’s what happens when you’re being guarded by D’Angelo Russell and left open (Darvin Ham stupidly told them to go under screens on Murray). Quit deflecting from the fact that Jokic didn’t need as much help as your hero.

[tpols]

I mean... he needed less.

Theres no universe where Pau puts up those numbers. Hes never came remotely close.

[Hey Yo]

Not all 5 of them while ignoring "the best shooter in history" :lol that is wide open.

Can you provide the in-game clip so we can actually watch and see how all that unfolded? How it got to that point?

Thanks .....

[RRR3]

I mean... he needed less.

Theres no universe where Pau puts up those numbers. Hes never came remotely close.
Ttrolls ladies and gentlemen :facepalm. Jamal Murray having one hot series against a horribly coached team that gave him open jumpers means he’s better than Pau Gasol. What an idiot.

[Hey Yo]

21% of Steph's shots for his career came from 10 feet out to the 3 pt line. If that isn't a valid sample size then KD's 3 pt sample size isn't valid either.

When it comes to middles and closer, it's safe to say Curry avoids those shots, which isn't a bad thing for him.

It just shows he trusts his 3 more than his 2 unlike KD who trusts himself from anywhere.

[tontoz]

Can you provide the in-game clip so we can actually watch and see how all that unfolded? How it got to that point?

Thanks .....


if that is what you want you could just rewatch the game. Game 5 in '17. Curry got to the foul line 15 times that game, another sign of just how much the Cavs D was focusing on him.

[Hey Yo]

Jamal Murray has never even been an allstar. Pau is in the HOF. levels to this shit.

Murry put up All-Star numbers in the 2023 postseason. That's irrefutable....

[tontoz]

When it comes to middles and closer, it's safe to say Curry avoids those shots, which isn't a bad thing for him.

It just shows he trusts his 3 more than his 2 unlike KD who trusts himself from anywhere.


Then why doesnt KD take more 3? They are worth 50% more points and nobody is going to block his shot so it doesn't make sense to take midrange shots in favor of 3s.

The fact is that 21% of Curry's shots come from 10 feet out to the 3 pt line. Over 16 seasons that is a huge sample size.

[tontoz]

Murry put up All-Star numbers in the 2023 postseason. That's irrefutable....


Yet those numbers dont equal Jokers career playoff averages.

[tpols]

Ttrolls ladies and gentlemen :facepalm. Jamal Murray having one hot series against a horribly coached team that gave him open jumpers means he’s better than Pau Gasol. What an idiot.

Murray averaged 26/6/5 in the two series before that as well. :lol

Youre a doofus. Guy simply balled out.

[Hey Yo]

if that is what you want you could just rewatch the game. Game 5 in '17. Curry got to the foul line 15 times that game, another sign of just how much the Cavs D was focusing on him.

That's not even the Cavs that GS is playing in that picture unless you think #5 guarding the paint is J.R Smith :lol

[RRR3]

Murray averaged 26/6/5 in the two series before that as well. :lol

Youre a doofus. Guy simply balled out.
26/6/5 is not the same. You are seriously trying to argue Jokic had more help relative to league than Kobe did. Embarrassing. His third best teammate was who KCP? :lol MPJ? :oldlol: Aaron Gordon? :lol your boy always had the best supporting cast in the league when he won Jokic won without that.

[Hey Yo]

Yet those numbers dont equal Jokers career playoff averages.

Who said they did, chico?

[tpols]

Murry put up All-Star numbers in the 2023 postseason. That's irrefutable....

RRR3 would rather have Mo Williams than Jamal Murray because hey! Mo has made an All Star team. :lol

Forget the MJ numbers, we want Mo!

[Hey Yo]

Then why doesnt KD take more 3? They are worth 50% more points and nobody is going to block his shot so it doesn't make sense to take midrange shots in favor of 3s.

The fact is that 21% of Curry's shots come from 10 feet out to the 3 pt line. Over 16 seasons that is a huge sample size.

He takes less 3's cause he's a better 2pt shooter. Just the opposite of Curry.

[tontoz]

He takes less 3's cause he's a better 2pt shooter. Just the opposite of Curry.

That doesn't make sense from a math standpoint. Shooting 48% from midrange isn't as valuable as shooting 34% from 3.

[j3lademaster]

That doesn't make sense from a math standpoint. Shooting 48% from midrange isn't as valuable as shooting 34% from 3.

Generally, sure. But there are certain situations where you just want the higher percentage shot, even outside of last second shots where you don't need a 3. A good example was Nets vs Milwaukee series in 21. Joe Harris couldn't hit the broad side of the barn, Kyrie was out... KD was by himself out there and whenever Mil would go on a run KD can back with a flurry of middies to stop the bleeding. It wasn't enough to match the runs, but in situations when the other team is hot and you have a KD who can pull off something like that and save you timeouts... it's incredibly valuable. Curry otoh, would not be able to get those shots off because he isn't 6'11 with a 7'5 wingspan.

I didn't make this post to say KD > Curry btw, just pointing out there's a psychological aspect of basketball that is much more than math(33.3% from 3 = 50% from 2).

[tontoz]

The downside of 3s is variance. There are times when you want to take fewer 3s to reduce variance, typically in 4th quarter situations.

[Baller234]

A lot of these Lebron stans lost their nut over Paus 18/10 but want to disparage Murray putting up a Michael Jordan line. :lol

Too funny.

And the ultimate irony is Murray did it vs Lebrons Lakers so they had a front row seat. They watched it.

"Lakers were so much better than everyone else..."
"Lakers never beat a team as good as _______"

Meanwhile 2025 marked the first year that Yolk won a playoff series against a 50 win team. Not to mention the Heat team they faced in the finals is one of the all time weakest in history. A cindarella team that nobody picked to make it that far.

[tontoz]

"Lakers were so much better than everyone else..."
"Lakers never beat a team as good as _______"

Meanwhile 2025 marked the first year that Yolk won a playoff series against a 50 win team. Not to mention the Heat team they faced in the finals is one of the all time weakest in history. A cindarella team that nobody picked to make it that far.

You do realize that there were 2 72 game seasons in recent years, right? Not many teams will win 50 out of 72.

That Cinderalla team is the same one that already made the finals in the bubble. I don't think a team gets to be Cinderella twice in 3 years.

[Baller234]

You do realize that there were 2 72 game seasons in recent years, right? Not many teams will win 50 out of 72.

That Cinderalla team is the same one that already made the finals in the bubble. I don't think a team gets to be Cinderella twice in 3 years.

Reg Season: 44-38

Conference Rank: 7th

+5500 to win championship at start of playoffs

Finals Odds: DEN -430 / MIA +330


:oldlol:

[tontoz]

Reg Season: 44-38

Conference Rank: 7th

+5500 to win championship at start of playoffs

Finals Odds: DEN -430 / MIA +330


:oldlol:

:blah


Miami was 5 pts away from making the Finals the previous season.

[RRR3]

Has anyone noticed almost everyone who voted for Kobe is infamous for being a stupid poster when it comes to the NBA? :lol

Reggie43 I think is the only person who seems normal who voted for Kobe everyone else is a notorious Kobe stan or idiot

[HoopsNY]

Did you seriously just try to equate Kobe's '02 Finals, where they beat up on a scrub team that had literally zero chance of beating them, with Shaq averaging his usual monster 36/12, to Wade's '06 where he dragged the Heat back from the dead virtually singlehandedly averaging 40 over the final 4 games outscoring Shaq by over 20 for the series?

That's one of the wildest takes I have ever read :lol With any context and frankly just by the statline those Finals are genuinely tiers apart

I'm not saying it was better. I'm saying it gets overlooked. Even his 2009 performance gets overlooked. Both series he had a better +/- than Wade in 2006. And 2006 was a big controversy regarding how the refs officiated Wade.

In 2009, for example, the Lakers' offense would often ran flat once Kobe sat down for the entirety of the playoffs. Kobe's +/- in the finals was +49, 11th all time amongst players that had a finals with 5 or fewer games.

I think Kobe has a lot of negatives in his finals performances (2004 being an obvious example), but downplaying all of them isn't fair. In addition, having to come back from 0-2 shouldn't be viewed as better than a sweep. If you're the more dominant team, then that's not to your detriment, it's to your credit. I think this idea has become more prevalent as time has gone on. Even I made a thread a while back where I labeled the 3-1 comeback in 2016 as the best chip ever. You shouldn't get brownie points for being down 3-1.


And imho record aside, Jokic beating the Suns & Lakers in 2023 was as difficult as any pairing of teams Kobe beat on his way to the Finals from 08-10.

It's easy to negate the entire sample and focus on a subset, but even then, I disagree. Suns had just added KD so there's issues of chemistry and the flaws obviously played themselves out long term. It's also convenient to leave out the finals where the Lakers faced Boston, twice. And also, the Lakers in 2023 weren't a tremendous threat at all. Yea they beat the defending champs, but I think GS in 2023 is more akin to GS in 2024 than they were in 2022.

[warriorfan]

Op is a white supremest

[Baller234]

That’s what happens when you’re being guarded by D’Angelo Russell and left open (Darvin Ham stupidly told them to go under screens on Murray). Quit deflecting from the fact that Jokic didn’t need as much help as your hero.

Jamal Murray left open? Who tf is leaving him open? Who is ANYONE leaving open right now?

Newsflash genius, nobody gets "left open" anymore unless they're a really subpar shooter. If Murray is getting wide open looks then it's a combination of ball movement, floor spacing and Yolk being a magician.

But that's irrelevant anyway, because Murray doesn't need open looks. He's one of the few players in the league that can actually break you down 1 on 1. Close to top ten. At his absolute best he has the ball on a string and no one can stop him. We've seen it. It's why he's so valuable for Denver down the stretch. When he doesn't show up, Denver loses those games more often than not. At least when it came to that Thunder series they just had a really tough time closing out some of those games.

If Kobe is in the lineup, I'm giving them way more of a chance. And that's not me speculating, it's because we've seen him change the course of a series time and time again for a nearly a whole decade. He's proven. Which is why it's fukking retarded to compare a guy that just won his first title to someone with five fukking rangz. Let the man PROVE he belongs in this conversation first.

It can't just ALWAYS be about stats stats stats. Let alone trying to compare stats across timelines.

[HoopsNY]

Lol.

So when someone dares to suggest that Kobe is better than you thought he was, it's because there's a secret agenda or bias. But when you guys suggest Kobe is some overrated hack, that's totally irrefutable because you guys just know more than everyone else.

Yolk is an amazing player and he would be great in any era, but you're comparing numbers across different timelines that have no business being compared in the first place. And even if you wanna argue that Yolk is the better offensive player, which is debatable, that still leaves defense. Kobe was elite on both sides of the ball. Yolk on defense is a sorry sack of shit and probably gives up 8-10 points a game due to sheer lack of effort.

Kobe never played in Yolk's era and Yolk never played in Kobe's, so we'll never know what their "numbers" would have been, nor do I care. I care about what they bring to the court as basketball players. Yolk is basically Larry Bird but with zero quickness and zero ability to penetrate. He's GREAT, but that's what he is. A bigger, a slower Larry Bird that is more limited 1 on 1 and doesn't play defense.

He doesn't get enough credit for these things. Not only did he dominate the height of the defensive era, but he also did it in an era of any iteration of guards — Vince, Wade, Pierce, AI, Allen, Spree, Houston, TMac, Iso Joe, Reggie, Richardson, Rip, etc. He ran a gauntlet nearly every year and put together a solid 14 prime years.

This doesn't take anything away from Jokic, but none of this is ever mentioned when people discuss Kobe's legacy, but they forget this is a major part of why he was so great.


Meanwhile what's the worst thing you can say about Kobe. He has a bit of an ego and might take some ill advised shots. Okay fine, other than that he has no weaknesses or flaws in his game. Whatever perceived flaw you wanna harp on doesn't matter because ultimately it didn't matter. He won in spite of it.

Overshooting is a flaw and he had it. That being said, the Lakers were perennial contenders nearly every year with him as a starter — a legit threat to win the chip outside of a few. And he went on to go to the finals 3 times, winning 2 if not for a manufactured superteam in Boston in 2008 without Shaq

If that doesn't spell ridiculous greatness, then idk what does. MJ never won without Scottie. And prime Scottie > prime Gasol. Magic never won without Kareem. Kareem needed Magic and Big O. Granted, none of this (at least in my mind) diminishes from them, but it does say a lot about Kobe.

Even in 2000 when the series was 2-1 in Indy with an opportunity to tie it 2-2, it was Kobe who took over in the OT when Shaq fouled out. And that was an underwhelming finals overall. Indy ended up winning game 5. Who knows how the series looks if Kobe isn't in game 4 to win it.

[HoopsNY]

I didn’t make up RAPM, xRAPM, or any similar stats. They are based on lineup data. You seem upset that Kobe had provably less impact than Jokic. Imagine Kobe trying to win a ring with the Nuggets roster in 2023, he would have lost in the first round lol.

Against a 42 win team like Minnesota? I mean, I suppose anything could happen, but I'm skeptical. And I'm not sure why the Nuggets' roster was so bad?

Murray put up 26/6/7/2 on 57% TS% in the playoffs. Kobe getting 33/6/5/3 on 65% TS% in the WCF from a teammate can't be all that bad.

[HoopsNY]

:oldlol:

This was a known thing. And to be honest, I don't really blame him. He had to conserve some energy on defense because he had such a big offensive role, especially when Shaq was gone. Phil Jackson most of the time would put Kobe on the weakest offensive player to conserve energy. He did this to MJ as he got older as well. Pretty much every great guard in history saw their defense suffer a little as their offense took off.

T-Mac was a solid defender when he was younger, by the time he was dominating in Orlando his defense was non existent at times. Harden was a solid defender in OKC, by the time he got to Houston he was atrocious on defense. When Kawhi peaked as an offensive player, he was no longer the defender he was in previous years. Stuff like this is very common among great scoring guards.

Yea but you're jumping off a cliff with Kobe whereas you're saying the other guys are just not the same as their earlier iterations. I also highly disagree that Kobe was "lazy" defensively. I don't recall that at all, and I watched his entire career from start to finish.

I'm sure there may have been times where one could classify it as such, but that's any aging player like you said. That being said, Kobe, like Kawhi after his SAS days, was still a solid defender, right up until around 2010. Was he 1999-2003 Kobe, or even 2004-2008? No. But that doesn't mean he was a liability like Jokic is. The two are simply not the same in this regard and trying to diminish Kobe's defense because he won All-Defensive 1st Team honors that he shouldn't have doesn't change that.

I also disagree about T-Mac. When he was with Orlando, he was a solid defensive player. His defense really became diminished with his injuries, maybe his last year with Orlando, but definitely with Houston.

Harden yea but he wasn't old. Harden joined Houston at 23. And even Kawhi wasn't old. He joined Toronto at 27.

[StrongLurk]

This thread is way too long.

The answer is pretty clearly Jokic at this point.

[Baller234]

Even in 2000 when the series was 2-1 in Indy with an opportunity to tie it 2-2, it was Kobe who took over in the OT when Shaq fouled out. And that was an underwhelming finals overall. Indy ended up winning game 5. Who knows how the series looks if Kobe isn't in game 4 to win it.

And he did it with such poise, that's really the thing.

Guys today claim they want the ball but they settle for bullshit. They gamble on a long three. Very few players demand the ball and have an actual plan to back it up. Right now there's maybe a HANDFUL of guys in the league you could say that about. Guys who could almost guarantee themselves at worst a decent midrange look. FFS the majority of today's players don't even have a back to the basket game. Kobe could face you up, he could back you down, he could pull up, he could turnaround, fadeaway, blow by you, he could fake you, juke you, spin on you... the whole gamut. I was never in the cult of Kobe. Well aware of the dings on his resume. Well aware that if Pau never gets traded to the Lakers we are talking about his career in a different light. Well aware he had a piss poor Game 7 against Boston. You still can't deny the results. You can't deny what he brought to the table as a player. More often than not, Kobe was the reason his teams won.

Last thing, something people often overlook. The more you win... the MORE pressure there is. Look at Bron, he was a STUD in the playoffs during the 2000's. He DOMINATED some teams. Look at how AGGRESSIVE he was against Detroit in that famous ecf game. Part of that is because there were less expectations. He was playing with house money. When he got to Miami and he was EXPECTED to perform, you saw what happened. The moment got too big for him. His own fault. He put too much pressure on himself.

Kobe was never AFRAID to perform. Say what you will, he had some off nights, but he was never afraid to be the guy. You were going to live or die with him. He took on that burden. If you are someone who claims to be the best, then that is the guy I want on my team. You're the guy making the big bucks, winning the game and closing the deal should be on YOU.

Anyway that's my rant. I have Kobe extremely high all time. I think I could make a case for anywhere between #2-6. Really only a decimal point fraction of players I would draft before him. His 1 on 1 play is too valuable.

[RRR3]

Bawler just said Kobe had a case for number 2 :roll: :roll: :roll:

[1987_Lakers]

Here are Kobe's finals stats

2000 - 15.6 ppg | 39 fg%
2001 - 24 ppg | 41.5 fg% | 50 TS%
2002 - 27 ppg | 51 fg% | 62 TS%
2004 - 23 ppg | 38 fg% | 46 TS%
2008 - 26 ppg | 40.1 fg% | 50.5 TS%
2009 - 32 ppg | 43 fg% | 52.5 TS%
2010 - 29 ppg | 40.1 fg% | 52.8 TS%



Here are Kobe's game seven stats.

44.2 MPG
22.2 points
FG 38.9%
FT 67.3%
8 RPG
5 APG
1 SPG
1.3 BPG





Here are Kobe's stats when facing elimination.

22.3 PPG
5.8 RPG
3.5 APG
1.3 SPG
1.3 BPG
on a 50.3 TS

and his teams went 9-10 in those games.

[RRR3]

Here are Kobe's finals stats

2000 - 15.6 ppg | 39 fg%
2001 - 24 ppg | 41.5 fg% | 50 TS%
2002 - 27 ppg | 51 fg% | 62 TS%
2004 - 23 ppg | 38 fg% | 46 TS%
2008 - 26 ppg | 40.1 fg% | 50.5 TS%
2009 - 32 ppg | 43 fg% | 52.5 TS%
2010 - 29 ppg | 40.1 fg% | 52.8 TS%



Here are Kobe's game seven stats.

44.2 MPG
22.2 points
FG 38.9%
FT 67.3%
8 RPG
5 APG
1 SPG
1.3 BPG





Here are Kobe's stats when facing elimination.

22.3 PPG
5.8 RPG
3.5 APG
1.3 SPG
1.3 BPG
on a 50.3 TS

and his teams went 9-10 in those games.
41.1 TS% in the 2000 finals btw. But sure he’s number two all time :oldlol:

[Baller234]

Here are Kobe's finals stats

2000 - 15.6 ppg | 39 fg%
2001 - 24 ppg | 41.5 fg% | 50 TS%
2002 - 27 ppg | 51 fg% | 62 TS%
2004 - 23 ppg | 38 fg% | 46 TS%
2008 - 26 ppg | 40.1 fg% | 50.5 TS%
2009 - 32 ppg | 43 fg% | 52.5 TS%
2010 - 29 ppg | 40.1 fg% | 52.8 TS%



Here are Kobe's game seven stats.

44.2 MPG
22.2 points
FG 38.9%
FT 67.3%
8 RPG
5 APG
1 SPG
1.3 BPG





Here are Kobe's stats when facing elimination.

22.3 PPG
5.8 RPG
3.5 APG
1.3 SPG
1.3 BPG
on a 50.3 TS

and his teams went 9-10 in those games.

I'm curious, what does "facing elimination" mean?

For example, 2nd round against the Mavs in 2011, they were swept that series. Is Game 4 included in that? Because that game was over before halftime.

[RRR3]

I'm curious, what does "facing elimination" mean?

For example, 2nd round against the Mavs in 2011, they were swept that series. Is Game 4 included in that? Because that game was over before halftime.
Yes that game counts it was facing elimination. It’s exactly what it sounds like. And your hero was DEE-readful in those games. “Top 2” doe :oldlol:

[SouBeachTalents]

Here are Kobe's finals stats

2000 - 15.6 ppg | 39 fg%
2001 - 24 ppg | 41.5 fg% | 50 TS%
2002 - 27 ppg | 51 fg% | 62 TS%
2004 - 23 ppg | 38 fg% | 46 TS%
2008 - 26 ppg | 40.1 fg% | 50.5 TS%
2009 - 32 ppg | 43 fg% | 52.5 TS%
2010 - 29 ppg | 40.1 fg% | 52.8 TS%



Here are Kobe's game seven stats.

44.2 MPG
22.2 points
FG 38.9%
FT 67.3%
8 RPG
5 APG
1 SPG
1.3 BPG





Here are Kobe's stats when facing elimination.

22.3 PPG
5.8 RPG
3.5 APG
1.3 SPG
1.3 BPG
on a 50.3 TS

and his teams went 9-10 in those games.
Career elimination game numbers

https://fadeawayworld.net/.image/ar_16:9%2Cc_fill%2Ccs_srgb%2Cq_auto:good%2Cw_1200/MjAwNzIxNzUzMjMwNTUwMjIw/376375365_195247706906896_6442094620287754401_n.pn g

[1987_Lakers]

Career elimination game numbers

https://fadeawayworld.net/.image/ar_16:9%2Cc_fill%2Ccs_srgb%2Cq_auto:good%2Cw_1200/MjAwNzIxNzUzMjMwNTUwMjIw/376375365_195247706906896_6442094620287754401_n.pn g

https://media4.giphy.com/media/v1.Y2lkPTc5MGI3NjExZHQyanAyOTczNmxxNm53cDJ5YWF4Y2N lNm42NzFpd20xcWF1bmpueiZlcD12MV9naWZzX3NlYXJjaCZjd D1n/MG7Ox4h7r2riU/200.webp

[RRR3]

Career elimination game numbers

https://fadeawayworld.net/.image/ar_16:9%2Cc_fill%2Ccs_srgb%2Cq_auto:good%2Cw_1200/MjAwNzIxNzUzMjMwNTUwMjIw/376375365_195247706906896_6442094620287754401_n.pn g
:roll: :roll: :roll:

[tontoz]

:roll:

/thread

[RRR3]

:roll:

/thread
Number two all time doe. Bawler said so :oldlol:

[warriorfan]

Sick box score analysis

You guys hella know ball.

:roll:

[RRR3]

Sick box score analysis

You guys hella know ball.

:roll:
Why was Kobe so bad in elimination games?

[warriorfan]

Why was Kobe so bad in elimination games?

Why were you so bad you never even played ball? You are out of your element. If it comes to advice on how to shovel books into the shelf efficiently we will ask for your consultation. Until then stand down and know your role.

[RRR3]

Why were you so bad you never even played ball? You are out of your element. If it comes to advice on how to shovel books into the shelf efficiently we will ask for your consultation. Until then stand down and know your role.
It really upsets you that Kobe withered in the clutch :(

[warriorfan]

It really upsets you that Kobe withered in the clutch :(

Yeah i’m totally upset you never played competitive sports and have no idea what the **** you are talking about.

Got me!!! :roll:

[Baller234]

3tard, serious question.

If Kobe was so inefficient and "not clutch", if he was such a detriment to his team... please explain how he was able to dominate and win so much.

For the sake of argument I will even let you discard the Shaq years. Let's just focus on that tail end of Kobe's prime run. Pau Gasol was a very good player but he was far from being a superstar. If he never plays with Kobe, very few people are probably talking about him today. He's a one time 2nd teamer and a three time 3rd teamer during an era that wasn't exactly known for it's bigs and centers. Kobe's championship teams were no more "stacked" than any of the players he's often compared to. Yet somehow, some way... he managed to keep his team contending year after year. Are you saying all of the credit should go to his teammates and coaches??

How did he do it!?!? Blind luck? :oldlol:

[RRR3]

3tard, serious question.

If Kobe was so inefficient and "not clutch", if he was such a detriment to his team... please explain how he was able to dominate and win so much.

For the sake of argument I will even let you discard the Shaq years. Let's just focus on that tail end of Kobe's prime run. Pau Gasol was a very good player but he was far from being a superstar. If he never plays with Kobe, very few people are probably talking about him today. He's a one time 2nd teamer and a three time 3rd teamer during an era that wasn't exactly known for it's bigs and centers. Kobe's championship teams were no more "stacked" than any of the players he's often compared to. Yet somehow, some way... he managed to keep his team contending year after year. Are you saying all of the credit should go to his teammates and coaches??

How did he do it!?!? Blind luck? :oldlol:
What team had a better roster than the Lakers in 2009 and 2010? They did what they were supposed to do.

You can stomp your feet all you want but the fact is Kobe was bad in elimination games.

[warriorfan]

3tard, serious question.

If Kobe was so inefficient and "not clutch", if he was such a detriment to his team... please explain how he was able to dominate and win so much.

For the sake of argument I will even let you discard the Shaq years. Let's just focus on that tail end of Kobe's prime run. Pau Gasol was a very good player but he was far from being a superstar. If he never plays with Kobe, very few people are probably talking about him today. He's a one time 2nd teamer and a three time 3rd teamer during an era that wasn't exactly known for it's bigs and centers. Kobe's championship teams were no more "stacked" than any of the players he's often compared to. Yet somehow, some way... he managed to keep his team contending year after year. Are you saying all of the credit should go to his teammates and coaches??

How did he do it!?!? Blind luck? :oldlol:

Bron stans will cope about how bosh never won anything pre bron while hyping up pau who according to their own standards never won anything. bosh had better stats too. And bron had bosh as a 3rd option to pau being merely kobe’s second!

[RRR3]

Bron stans will cope about how bosh never won anything pre bron while hyping up pau who according to their own standards never won anything. bosh had better stats too. And bron had bosh as a 3rd option to pau being merely kobe’s second!
Bosh was better than Kobe according to you.

[warriorfan]

Bosh was better than Kobe according to you.

Idk man you flip flop a lot with advanced stats. You wanna say kobe is bad defender from drapm but when I ask you about Klay Thompson’s drapm you go ghost. If you wanna be a stat bron nerd then ya Bosh had advanced stats that topped Kobe in some areas…and Bron teamed up with this dude as a third option and still choked and lost. You are shooting yourself in the foot in this situation. You should probably do yourself a favor and stop posting.

[RRR3]

Idk man you flip flop a lot with advanced stats. You wanna say kobe is bad defender from drapm but when I ask you about Klay Thompson’s drapm you go ghost. If you wanna be a stat bron nerd then ya Bosh had advanced stats that topped Kobe in some areas…and Bron teamed up with this dude as a third option and still choked and lost. You are shooting yourself in the foot in this situation. You should probably do yourself a favor and stop posting.
PER is barely an advanced stat, look at impact stats. I don’t think I ever said klay was some great defender you are arguing with ghosts as usual.

[Baller234]

What team had a better roster than the Lakers in 2009 and 2010? They did what they were supposed to do.

You can stomp your feet all you want but the fact is Kobe was bad in elimination games.

Lakers defeated the Spurs in the 08 WCF, the reigning champs. :oldlol:

Manu was dealing with ankle problems but up until that point he was playing well. That same Spurs team beat the Nash/Amare Suns AND the CP3 Hornets who were the talk of the town that year. Both 50+ win teams in a loaded west.

Kobe averaged 30 a game against the Spurs that series, a team that was elite defensively. The Spurs won game 4 and the Lakers were trailing big towards the end of the 1st half. Kobe led the comeback, scoring 11 in the third and 17 in the fourth. This was back when scoring was A LOT harder than it is today.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5aXVxcLm2qQ

In 2009 the Lakers beat Orlando in the finals, another elite defensive team. They had Dwight who was the league's best rim protector and rebounder and they had a bunch of athletic wings who could hound the perimeter. That team had defense, perimeter scoring, perimeter SHOOTING... they were a good team. They don't make the finals if KG doesn't get hurt but they were still very good. They still beat the Pierce/Allen/Rondo Celtics which wasn't exactly a gimme. The Celts still went 18-9 without KG and finished 3rd in the conference.

Kobe averaged 32 a game against Orlando to secure the rang, again when scoring was a lot harder.

In 2010 the Lakers beat the Nash/Amare Suns in the WCF, who won just three games less than they did that year. Another REALLY good team. The last really good year that Suns team had. Not the absolute peak version of them, but they still had their core intact. They won 54 games that season. They SWEPT the Spurs. Parker missed 26 games that year but Duncan and Manu were both totally healthy. The Suns SWEPT them. Safe to say they were pretty good.

Now the Suns weren't exactly known for their defense, but in Game 6 they literally threw the kitchen sink at Kobe. Double teams in the post, Jason Richardson and Grant Hill bodying him 25 from the basket. :oldlol:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wjjup42zLW4

Bean's shot making ability was just too much for them that night. Lakers to the finals for the third straight year.

In the finals they meet the Celtics again, quite possibly a top 10 team all time. Again not the absolute best version of them, they were all older, but that team is still ahead of 99% of all NBA teams that have ever been assembled. Stacked to the gills with veteran star talent, not to mention Rondo who was on his way to becoming a star in his own right. Most importantly they were ANOTHER elite defensive team.

Kobe averaged 28 a game. Back to back rangz.


Please.

PLEASE.

Sit the **** down and stop talking.

[RRR3]

That’s quite a meltdown you had there. But it doesn’t change the fact that Kobe was a poor finals performer and awful in elimination games. Like I said he had the best supporting casts the years he won.








Stats don’t lie.

[Baller234]

I'll take that as a white flag surrender. :oldlol:

[RRR3]

I'll take that as a white flag surrender. :oldlol:
You just ranted and raved about Kobe’s playoff runs. I’m aware he had some great playoff runs, you’re gonna have to do better than that to prove he’s better than Jokic tho.


Why are you avoiding Kobe’s awful elimination game stats and subpar final stats? I thought he was the second best player ever.

[Baller234]

You just ranted and raved about Kobe’s playoff runs. I’m aware he had some great playoff runs, you’re gonna have to do better than that to prove he’s better than Jokic tho.


Why are you avoiding Kobe’s awful elimination game stats and subpar final stats? I thought he was the second best player ever.

Uh, because stats don't tell the whole story?

- Kobe was 18 when he faced the Jazz in Game 5 of the 97 first round.
- Kobe was 19 when he faced the Jazz in Game 4 of the 98 WCF.
- Kobe was 20 when he faced the Spurs in Game 4 of 99 second round.

So right off the bat you have three "elimination" games where Kobe wasn't even Kobe yet and he wasn't even a leader on the team. :oldlol:

Let's see what happens moving forward.

- 2000 finals Game 6, not an elimination game but a closeout game. If they don't win the series goes 7 and anything can happen. Kobe puts up 26/10. He sinks the last two free throws of the game with 2 seconds left to put the game out of reach. Both of them swishes. Wins his first rang.

- 2002 WCF Game 7, his first actual elimination game as a superstar. Yes I'm well aware this game is controversial. Regardless he put up 30/10/7. Great game

- 2003 WCF Game 6 was his next elimination game. The Lakers lost to the almighty Duncan that year but Kobe scored 31 pts that game.

- 2004 Finals Game 5. Okay fine, he had a shit game here and tried to do much. That's ONE game so far from your retarded "snapshot" that actually carries weight.

- His next two elimination games came during the post-Shaq but pre-Gasol era. That team just wasn't very good. He needed to be the guy every night. 06 was also when his ego got the best of him and people claimed he stopped shooting in the 2nd half to prove a point. Not his brightest moment and yes it's a real knock against him, but there's no denying that the Suns were way better than the Lakers that year. In the 07 win or go home game he scored 34 in a loss.

- After Gasol we all know how that went for awhile. Lakers went to three straight finals and won back to back rangz. They lost to the Celts in 06 but that was an all time team, both offensively and defensively.

- His next elimination game was against Dallas in 2011 in Game 4. Dallas was shooting them out of the gym and the game was over before halftime. The first real sign that the league and the game was changing and that teams could destroy from you from three if you don't guard it. Not gonna hold whatever Kobe did that 2nd half against him, the game was already over. Everything Kobe and the Lakers did from that point on was pure desperation.

But now we're at the point where Kobe is a lot older and past his prime. Year 15. So I don't even see what the point is in holding anything that happens from here on out against him. He's already proven himself and reached the mountain top.

So yea, your stats are totally fugazi and misleading. Proof positive you can't just track random stats and draw conclusions from them. You actually need to WATCH basketball in order to understand it. :oldlol:

[RRR3]

Uh, because stats don't tell the whole story?

- Kobe was 18 when he faced the Jazz in Game 5 of the 97 first round.
- Kobe was 19 when he faced the Jazz in Game 4 of the 98 WCF.
- Kobe was 20 when he faced the Spurs in Game 4 of 99 second round.

So right off the bat you have three "elimination" games where Kobe wasn't even Kobe yet and he wasn't even a leader on the team. :oldlol:

Let's see what happens moving forward.

- 2000 finals Game 6, not an elimination game but a closeout game. If they don't win the series goes 7 and anything can happen. Kobe puts up 26/10. He sinks the last two free throws of the game with 2 seconds left to put the game out of reach. Both of them swishes. Wins his first rang.

- 2002 WCF Game 7, his first actual elimination game as a superstar. Yes I'm well aware this game is controversial. Regardless he put up 30/10/7. Great game

- 2003 WCF Game 6 was his next elimination game. The Lakers lost to the almighty Duncan that year but Kobe scored 31 pts that game.

- 2004 Finals Game 5. Okay fine, he had a shit game here and tried to do much. That's ONE game so far from your retarded "snapshot" that actually carries weight.

- His next two elimination games came during the post-Shaq but pre-Gasol era. That team just wasn't very good. He needed to be the guy every night. 06 was also when his ego got the best of him and people claimed he stopped shooting in the 2nd half to prove a point. Not his brightest moment and yes it's a real knock against him, but there's no denying that the Suns were way better than the Lakers that year. In the 07 win or go home game he scored 34 in a loss.

- After Gasol we all know how that went for awhile. Lakers went to three straight finals and won back to back rangz. They lost to the Celts in 06 but that was an all time team, both offensively and defensively.

- His next elimination game was against Dallas in 2011 in Game 4. Dallas was shooting them out of the gym and the game was over before halftime. The first real sign that the league and the game was changing and that teams could destroy from you from three if you don't guard it. Not gonna hold whatever Kobe did that 2nd half against him, the game was already over. Everything Kobe and the Lakers did from that point on was pure desperation.

But now we're at the point where Kobe is a lot older and past his prime. Year 15. So I don't even see what the point is in holding anything that happens from here on out against him. He's already proven himself and reached the mountain top.

So yea, your stats are totally fugazi and misleading. Proof positive you can't just track random stats and draw conclusions from them. You actually need to WATCH basketball in order to understand it. :oldlol:
Noticed you left out efficiency. Why?

[Jasper]

kobe was abscessed with shooting the ball

Joker team player 101 (mr. fundamental Jr)

[warriorfan]

PER is barely an advanced stat, look at impact stats. I don’t think I ever said klay was some great defender you are arguing with ghosts as usual.

Cool.

So let’s establish Klay Thompson was a mediocre defender who couldn’t dribble and scored 15 ppg on Allen Iverson level efficiency during his first Finals.


And also that Steph Curry has been a net positive defensive player for 8 of the past 10 seasons.

[RRR3]

Cool.

So let’s establish Klay Thompson was a mediocre defender who couldn’t dribble and scored 15 ppg on Allen Iverson level efficiency during his first Finals.


And also that Steph Curry has been a net positive defensive player for 8 of the past 10 seasons.
I rate Steph very highly, top 10 all time for sure, me trolling you about him has you thinking I don’t I guess.

[warriorfan]

I rate Steph very highly, top 10 all time for sure, me trolling you about him has you thinking I don’t I guess.

Also FYI RAPM is the reasoning the weirdos at RealGM have Kevin Garnett in their top 10 of all time.

So at some point you do have to take it with a bit of salt. It’s a pretty good stat but it’s far from perfect.

[warriorfan]

That’s quite a meltdown you had there. But it doesn’t change the fact that Kobe was a poor finals performer and awful in elimination games. Like I said he had the best supporting casts the years he won.








Stats don’t lie.

I don’t care what stats say Kobe had a great game 7 win vs Boston. I know you trolls just spam 7/24 or whatever it is because you didn’t even watch it but yeah

[1987_Lakers]

I don’t care what stats say Kobe had a great game 7 win vs Boston. I know you trolls just spam 7/24 or whatever it is because you didn’t even watch it but yeah

Wtf, lol.

[SouBeachTalents]

Wtf, lol.
Those Kobe standards.

[warriorfan]

Imagine watching games and not excel spreadsheets.

lol

[Baller234]

Noticed you left out efficiency. Why?

Hey genius, nobody cared about efficiency back then. Analytics didn't exist. Teams were just trying to win.

The game was physical. Defense was tough. Spacing didn't exist. It was a lot harder to create "efficient" shots. Teams had specialists but they didn't have balanced scoring SEVEN guys down the roster. The Lakers didn't have a ton of skilled guys outside of Kobe and Gasol. They had RELIABLE guys but not very skilled. D-Fish wasn't skilled. Lamar Odom? Eh... he was a jack of all trades ace of none type. A poor man's Pippen but who might not even be as good as Horace Grant. Horace Grant could at least give you tenacious defense on the other end. Ron Artest? Definitely helps out on defense, definitely gives you an edge, but not someone you could call "skilled". Andrew Bynum?? Big, strong... not really "skilled". Semi skilled maybe. The guys today are surrounded by nothing BUT skilled players. Guys you can't leave open. Guys who could run, pass and shoot. Every single guy on the floor is a threat to score at any given moment. The teams that actually do have great 1 on 1 players are at an extreme advantage.

The fact that you would look at someone who has such a decorated career, a guy who was basically worshiped by his own peers even before he died, a guy who most players and coaches from that era say is one of the best to ever do it... and all you could focus on is "efficiency". And not even real efficiency, "advanced" efficiency. Even though in real time nobody fukking cared because all he did was win.

It's pure brain damage.

[Hey Yo]

I don’t care what stats say Kobe had a great game 7 win vs Boston. I know you trolls just spam 7/24 or whatever it is because you didn’t even watch it but yeah

6/24

[RRR3]

Hey genius, nobody cared about efficiency back then. Analytics didn't exist. Teams were just trying to win.

The game was physical. Defense was tough. Spacing didn't exist. It was a lot harder to create "efficient" shots. Teams had specialists but they didn't have balanced scoring SEVEN guys down the roster. The Lakers didn't have a ton of skilled guys outside of Kobe and Gasol. They had RELIABLE guys but not very skilled. D-Fish wasn't skilled. Lamar Odom? Eh... he was a jack of all trades ace of none type. A poor man's Pippen but who might not even be as good as Horace Grant. Horace Grant could at least give you tenacious defense on the other end. Ron Artest? Definitely helps out on defense, definitely gives you an edge, but not someone you could call "skilled". Andrew Bynum?? Big, strong... not really "skilled". Semi skilled maybe. The guys today are surrounded by nothing BUT skilled players. Guys you can't leave open. Guys who could run, pass and shoot. Every single guy on the floor is a threat to score at any given moment. The teams that actually do have great 1 on 1 players are at an extreme advantage.

The fact that you would look at someone who has such a decorated career, a guy who was basically worshiped by his own peers even before he died, a guy who most players and coaches from that era say is one of the best to ever do it... and all you could focus on is "efficiency". And not even real efficiency, "advanced" efficiency. Even though in real time nobody fukking cared because all he did was win.

It's pure brain damage.
You’re the one trying to rank him second all time. So yeah stats do matter when you want to compare him to those guys. And frankly his stats don’t measure up to guys like Kareem, Wilt, and LeBron. Eve someone like Curry who I’m sure you think isn’t that good cuz he’s modern is pretty clearly better based off impact data.

[Baller234]

You’re the one trying to rank him second all time. So yeah stats do matter when you want to compare him to those guys. And frankly his stats don’t measure up to guys like Kareem, Wilt, and LeBron. Eve someone like Curry who I’m sure you think isn’t that good cuz he’s modern is pretty clearly better based off impact data.

Comparing 60's stats to 00's stats to 20's stats. :oldlol:

[RRR3]

Comparing 60's stats to 00's stats to 20's stats. :oldlol:
Okay take out Wilt if you want. But the thing is we have impact data for Kobe’s entire career and he definitely didn’t stack up to his contemporaries in Shaq Duncan and LeBron.

Still not seeing any case for Kobe over the other two or Shaq, Magic, Hakeem, Duncan or Curry. Maybe you can argue him versus Bird since Bird had a lot of playoff stinkers too. And while I think Kobe is still ahead of Jokic on the GOAT list due to longevity, that should change as well unless Jokic has truly awful longevity (which is always possible).

[Baller234]

Okay take out Wilt if you want. Still not seeing any case for Kobe over the other two or Shaq, Magic, Hakeem, Duncan or Curry. Maybe you can argue him versus Bird since Bird had a lot of playoff stinkers too

Comparing 80's stats to 00's stats to 20's stats. :oldlol:

You literally have no idea how to talk about basketball without stats. Probably because you never played growing up.

[Tavr]

I don’t care what stats say Kobe had a great game 7 win vs Boston. I know you trolls just spam 7/24 or whatever it is because you didn’t even watch it but yeah

Rondo even credited Kobe for his tenacious defense on Ray and himself. Kendrick Perkins also recently claimed Kobe's rebounding was one of the biggest reasons that LA won. I personally wouldn't argue his G7 was "great", but given the context it wasn't horrific like stat nerds claim.

I also want to dive deeper into Kobe's elimination games. Baller234 made an interesting post regarding Kobe's early years (before he began and entered his prime). Looking at the numbers in elimination games, Prime Kobe actually averaged 25 on 41% shooting. And if you removed that elimination game 7 vs Houston (LA was already up 20+ in the 2nd quarter :oldlol:), his averages would be 26 on 41%. I didn't calculate the assists or rebounding, but looking at the stats, Kobe was pretty good there too. These numbers also don't tell you about defense and we know in big games Kobe revved it up on that end.

Tallying everything up, I think Kobe was alright in elimination games. Not bad or great. Numbers should always be put into proper perspective though.

[RRR3]

Comparing 80's stats to 00's stats to 20's stats. :oldlol:

You literally have no idea how to talk about basketball without stats. Probably because you never played growing up.
Are you seriously too dim to realize we have impact data so we can compare different eras? Even if you just compare Kobe to the guys in his own era he was clearly behind Shaq Duncan and LeBron. How can he be top 2 then? All you have are personal attacks and emotional meltdowns while I have data.

[Baller234]

Are you seriously too dim to realize we have impact data so we can compare different eras? Even if you just compare Kobe to the guys in his own era he was clearly behind Shaq Duncan and LeBron. How can he be top 2 then? All you have are personal attacks and emotional meltdowns while I have data.

You only interpret it as a personal attack because you know it's true. You didn't play. You were never a student of the game.

[warriorfan]

Rondo even credited Kobe for his tenacious defense on Ray and himself. Kendrick Perkins also recently claimed Kobe's rebounding was one of the biggest reasons that LA won. I personally wouldn't argue his G7 was "great", but given the context it wasn't horrific like stat nerds claim.

I also want to dive deeper into Kobe's elimination games. Baller234 made an interesting post regarding Kobe's early years (before he began and entered his prime). Looking at the numbers in elimination games, Prime Kobe actually averaged 25 on 41% shooting. And if you removed that elimination game 7 vs Houston (LA was already up 20+ in the 2nd quarter :oldlol:), his averages would be 26 on 41%. I didn't calculate the assists or rebounding, but looking at the stats, Kobe was pretty good there too. These numbers also don't tell you about defense and we know in big games Kobe revved it up on that end.

Tallying everything up, I think Kobe was alright in elimination games. Not bad or great. Numbers should always be put into proper perspective though.

I remember that game vividly still and it was a slow paced defensive grinding game. Boston had an elite D anchored by Kevin Garnet. Kobe obviously knew he was struggling to get good looks and his shot wasn’t falling, a lot of guys curl up when they start feel that happening but he went even harder instead. He got active on the boards and was playing nasty point of attack defense but what was a game changer was during the game Kobe made an adjustment and started sagging off Rondo more and more….allowing him to help defend all over the place. That was one of the big shifts of the game when Kobe started doing that.


So I am not saying throw out stats. Stats are obviously a great tool of measure when used properly. But like you said they need to get put in the proper perspective and recognize the context as well. It’s super hard to cross compare stats across eras but you can make it a little better with pace adjustment and some other tweaks.

Nothing replaces watching the game. I know there aren’t enough hours of the day to watch all the games of even your favorite team. But the more you watch the more you really get a better take on everything. Stats are great but they can only take you so far in terms of seeing the total picture.

[Tavr]

I remember that game vividly still and it was a slow paced defensive grinding game. Boston had an elite D anchored by Kevin Garnet. Kobe obviously knew he was struggling to get good looks and his shot wasn’t falling, a lot of guys curl up when they start feel that happening but he went even harder instead. He got active on the boards and was playing nasty point of attack defense but what was a game changer was during the game Kobe made an adjustment and started sagging off Rondo more and more….allowing him to help defend all over the place. That was one of the big shifts of the game when Kobe started doing that.


So I am not saying throw out stats. Stats are obviously a great tool of measure when used properly. But like you said they need to get put in the proper perspective and recognize the context as well. It’s super hard to cross compare stats across eras but you can make it a little better with pace adjustment and some other tweaks.

Nothing replaces watching the game. I know there aren’t enough hours of the day to watch all the games of even your favorite team. But the more you watch the more you really get a better take on everything. Stats are great but they can only take you so far in terms of seeing the total picture.

This is a really good post. We're in full agreement :applause:

[John8204]

Career elimination game numbers

https://fadeawayworld.net/.image/ar_16:9%2Cc_fill%2Ccs_srgb%2Cq_auto:good%2Cw_1200/MjAwNzIxNzUzMjMwNTUwMjIw/376375365_195247706906896_6442094620287754401_n.pn g

Yeah not only that but look at how impressive Jokic's 4-1 record in the finals is compared to Kobe's 23-14.

The PERCENTAGES are so much more impressive than the VOLUME. :facepalm