SWAGGY P: "no driving lanes in triangle & too much jumpshooting required for Lebron"

[3ba11]

This was Gil and Swaggy's response to TMac's claim that Lebron would have more rings if he used the triangle (triple-post offense, no driving lanes).

This is why Kobe is better.. He had expert jumpshooting skill to shoot over defenses, as required when there's no driving lanes - he didn't need spacing like Lebron, while his superior scoring diversity (on-ball and off-ball) allowed better fits, more sophisticated brand of ball and therefore better teams

Swaggy's comments here: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=3c-9RMy6MR8&t=02m43s

[1987_Lakers]

Every team needs spacing in today's league to win.

Put the 90's Bulls in today's era and they would get wrekt for their lack of spacing.

[Im so nba'd out]

Who would have more rings with no triangle OP? Without a system who is better lebron or mj at winning rings?

LeBron has 4* no triangle.

[Im so nba'd out]

Who would have more rings with no triangle OP? Without a system who is better lebron or mj at winning rings?

LeBron has 4* no triangle.

[3ba11]

Every team needs spacing in today's league to win.

Put the 90's Bulls in today's era and they would get wrekt for their lack of spacing.


The point was that Lebron can't play in the triangle.

But to your point - SGA just won with 30% threes from teammates in the playoffs because SGA is a great jumpshooter that can shoot over defenses - great jumpshooters like SGA, Kobe and MJ don't need great shooting from teammates because they can shoot over packed paints

Otoh, LeDrive needs great spacing to win (and still mostly loses, or wins less than peers)

[1987_Lakers]

The point was that Lebron can't play in the triangle.

But to your point - SGA just won with 30% threes from teammates in the playoffs

Why lie like this? They shot a little over 35% from three in the postseason if you exclude SGA.

[3ba11]

Who would have more rings with no triangle OP? Without a system who is better lebron or mj at winning rings?

LeBron has 4* no triangle.


The value of systems like the Bulls, Spurs or Warriors is that the extra sophistication of the offense allows sufficient chemistry to win with "normal" rosters of 1 franchise player.

Otoh, Lebron's skillset prevents great ball movement and chemistry, so he can't win with normal rosters and must form "super-teams" of multiple franchise players.. And yet his chemistry is worst-ever (turns everyone into spot-up shooter), so he can't produce great teams regardless of roster and has a lottery record against Finals teams.

It's easy to forget the statistical record that Lebron lowers everyone's assists and produces low assist teams - this matters because every series loss of Lebron's playoff career shows deficits in team assists.. So we know that inferior ball movement is his Achilles heel (weak spot)

[3ba11]

Why lie like this? They shot a little over 35% from three in the postseason if you exclude SGA.


Finals

[1987_Lakers]

Finals

You said playoffs.

Carry on.

[1987_Lakers]

The value of systems like the Bulls, Spurs or Warriors is that the extra sophistication of the offense allows sufficient chemistry to win with "normal" rosters of 1 franchise player.

Teams LeBron beat btw.

Jordan needed a system

LeBron IS the system.

[3ba11]

Teams LeBron beat btw.

Jordan needed a system

LeBron IS the system.


Lebron has a lottery record against Spurs, Warriors & Nuggets, while never beating the TWolves, Mavs or Magic, and losing to all three as the favorite (Ant, Dirk, Dwight)

That's pathetic, so Lebron is a joke and fraud

[3ba11]

You said playoffs.

Carry on.


The point remains that great mid-range shooters like SGA, Kobe and MJ can shoot over defenses and therefore win with little or no spacing

LeDrive can't do that and needs great spacing to win

[3ba11]

link to Swaggy's comments added to the OP

[3ba11]

Thread cliffs

The triangle was a "triple-post" offense with no driving lanes, so high-volume jumpshooters were required to shoot over packed paints and facilitate ball movement, aka Lebron can't play in the offense

[sdot_thadon]

"No driving lanes in the triangle" yet Mj, Pippen, and Kobe had as many dunks in tbe halfcourt as anyone. Lebron would be just fine. Hes got a high enougn bball IQ that hed find the plays in the triangle. Shaq did just fine without a jumper in the triangle. Pippen even won 55 games as the lead dog in the triangle without a jumper (according to people like 3ball) Mj made it to the conference finals in the triangle without a reliable jumper (the strategy to beat him was much like the one for young Lebron, make him shoot or watch him dunk). Plenty of players did a good job in the triangle without a "jumper"

Lucky for you, Lebron has a pretty good jumper and would be annihilating 90s "give him the jumper" defense because hed be nailing 3s from 5 feet beyond the arc (reminder: in miami once he figured out the offesne and took 3s in the flow of it he was hovering at 40% from the real 3point line). When they learn they cant sag then he's blowing right by anyone. You help, you pay when he makes the right play. Not to mention his bigs would be in the dunker most plays so hed always have a guy right there for a bunny.

Thread cliffs: Hed be an absolute nightmare In the triangle in the 90s getting 10ft of cushion to shoot from outside like Mj did.

[Baller234]

Lucky for you, Lebron has a pretty good jumper and would be annihilating 90s "give him the jumper" defense because hed be nailing 3s from 5 feet beyond the arc (reminder: in miami once he figured out the offesne and took 3s in the flow of it he was hovering at 40% from the real 3point line). When they learn they cant sag then he's blowing right by anyone. You help, you pay when he makes the right play. Not to mention his bigs would be in the dunker most plays so hed always have a guy right there for a bunny

There's only one problem. Where's the spacing?

Okay they don't sag and Bron blows by them. Where is he going?? The lanes are clogged. No 3pt shooters spreading the floor. Can't just bulldoze past his man cause there's probably a PF and/or a C in his way.

When MJ beat you on the perimeter that was it. If you fell for that fake that was it. You already lost. Open pull up. If he blows by you and you over-commit, hard stop - open pull up. Bron never had that deep bag of mid range trickery. He needed to get to the rim. Which would have been harder in the 90's.

He'd be a great player regardless, but part of what always made Bron so dangerous was his ability to get to the rim. That dynamic would be different.

[Phoenix]

Lebron at his physically biggest was, what, 270? 275? At 6'9 that's pretty much Karl Malone. I'm less inclined to mindfukk myself taking his game as we know it and just dropping him into the 90s, and rather 'what does Lebron's game look like if he's drafted in 1987?'. My guess is, and hopefully it's not a wild one, it will develop based on what the rules of the day required and what players of his size generally were at that point, thrown in with inherent tendencies and skills that a good coach will identify and hone in on. What was Malone playing like in 1995? What about Barkley in like 1990? 93 Kemp? Or figure out what a stronger, slightly more explosive but less shifty version of Grant Hill looks like. Maybe he's a little bit of all that. Maybe his game looks a bit like Steve Smith but he's infused with vibranium or whatever the shit was that William Dafoe took in Spiderman to become the Goblin. Just seems a bit easier finding 90s proxies for what his game would most likely resemble than putting 2015 Lebron in a DeLorean and dropping him in 1990. Gauge it based on what you think he's likely to be if he actually came along in that era. Same shit I do for someone like Bill Russell. I'm not taking him as he was in 1960 and dropping him in 2020. Why the fukk would you do that?? Instead, assume he's coming along in 2020, look at his inherit attributes, look at what is required of bigs now, look what access he has to modern science and then go from there. No, we don't know what that amounts to so we can only guess, but isn't that what we're doing anyway with this back to the future shit?

[Im Still Ballin]

LeBron's lack of a consistent mid-range & post-up game over his career hurt his potential in the Triangle. However, his ball-handling, passing, and cutting would make him lethal off-ball & attacking off-the-catch. The Triple Post Offense is dynamic enough to find ideal sets and actions that maximize James' strengths.

[Im Still Ballin]

LeBron spearheaded two respectable offenses with old-school spacing: +4.1 (2009) and +3.6 (2010). We're talking frontcourts featuring Illgauskas, Varejao, and Ben Wallace - two of them at the same time! LA, with a clearly more talented roster, had a +4.5 offense in 2009.

[Im Still Ballin]

LeBron could benefit from having some of the playmaking responsibilities outsourced to other players. I think off-ball scoring is where he benefits most from playing in the Triangle. He's big enough to finish inside among the trees and skilled enough as a passer to make the necessary interior passes to punish help defense in the paint.

[tpols]

Its not just the triangle that would be a problem for Lebron, its the fact that he'd have a tough time with low post centers taking away his rim driving space. Can't just crash into a sea of bodies.

His game has always required elite spacing to work.

Big Z
Jamison
Bosh
Love
AD

etc. Hes always needed big man shooting spacing even going back to his younger days. Big Z was probably the best shooting 7'3 guy at the time and maybe ever? All he was good for was a little rebounding defense and his shooting. And that was back in the early mid 2000s when he was an All Star and big guys couldn't shoot as well.

[Im Still Ballin]

Its not just the triangle that would be a problem for Lebron, its the fact that he'd have a tough time with low post centers taking away his rim driving space. Can't just crash into a sea of bodies.

His game has always required elite spacing to work.

Big Z
Jamison
Bosh
Love
AD

etc. Hes always needed big man shooting spacing even going back to his younger days. Big Z was probably the best shooting 7'3 guy at the time and maybe ever? All he was good for was a little rebounding defense and his shooting. And that was back in the early mid 2000s when he was an All Star and big guys couldn't shoot as well.

Illgauskas was a career 40% mid-range shooter, which is really nothing special, especially considering most of those were assisted and open spot-up & pick-and-pop attempts. LeBron didn't have elite spacing until 2012-13, when Bosh moved to center, allowing MIA to play LeBron with Battier at the FWD positions.

[sdot_thadon]

There's only one problem. Where's the spacing?

Okay they don't sag and Bron blows by them. Where is he going?? The lanes are clogged. No 3pt shooters spreading the floor. Can't just bulldoze past his man cause there's probably a PF and/or a C in his way.

When MJ beat you on the perimeter that was it. If you fell for that fake that was it. You already lost. Open pull up. If he blows by you and you over-commit, hard stop - open pull up. Bron never had that deep bag of mid range trickery. He needed to get to the rim. Which would have been harder in the 90's.

He'd be a great player regardless, but part of what always made Bron so dangerous was his ability to get to the rim. That dynamic would be different.

This is one of these narrative things I'll never understand. Where was the spacing for Mj? Where was the spacing for Pippen, Clyde, Grant Hill, Nique, Barkely, and many others? (the list could get long) Guys in the 90s dunked plenty from driving the lane in the "packed paint" I had posters of a bunch of them. We had guys like Robert Pack, look him up, dunking regularly in the 90s. What makes you think Lebron effing James would do any less than those other guys did. Hes moving like a guard in a pf or even short centers body in the 90s. Against great shotblockers? Sure it is what it is, great guys are going to yam on great defenders too. I personally think Olajuwon would give him hell like he did everyone else. But we cant romanticize the 90s like every center was sending shit back either. What about the 90s makes you think he isnt still getting to the rim at will? Skinny 3's trying to handcheck him? Big slow 4s or 5s out on an island? I agree the physicality is more profound in the 90s but you're talking about the one guy in modern ball it would impact the least. The most physical perimeter player ever.

[Baller234]

This is one of these narrative things I'll never understand. Where was the spacing for Mj? Where was the spacing for Pippen, Clyde, Grant Hill, Nique, Barkely, and many others? (the list could get long) Guys in the 90s dunked plenty from driving the lane in the "packed paint" I had posters of a bunch of them. We had guys like Robert Pack, look him up, dunking regularly in the 90s. What makes you think Lebron effing James would do any less than those other guys did. Hes moving like a guard in a pf or even short centers body in the 90s. Against great shotblockers? Sure it is what it is, great guys are going to yam on great defenders too. I personally think Olajuwon would give him hell like he did everyone else. But we cant romanticize the 90s like every center was sending shit back either. What about the 90s makes you think he isnt still getting to the rim at will? Skinny 3's trying to handcheck him? Big slow 4s or 5s out on an island? I agree the physicality is more profound in the 90s but you're talking about the one guy in modern ball it would impact the least. The most physical perimeter player ever.

"I had a poster of these guys dunking in my room therefore what you're saying can't be true..."

Lol what? Sorry bro it's not a narrative, it's the facts of the situation. Back then the defense was allowed to pack the paint. Jordan was able to thrive because half his offense was isolations and pull ups from 12-20 feet. He didn't need to finish at the rim in order to beat you. You're talking about a guy who could back his man down from 15 let off a clean turnaround in a single motion. Fakes. Footwork. Fundamentals.

Bron's scoring advantage was never his skill. Kobe was more skilled. TMac was more skilled. Wade was more skilled. Melo was more skilled. Durant was more skilled. What Bron had over them was strength and explosiveness, ON TOP of being skilled. Obviously it goes without saying that he's also a better passer than all of them, but purely as a scorer in isolation he's not touching any of those guys in terms of pure skill. He's no slouch himself, he's far above average, but those guys were elite elite.

You're right Bron can get physical, which is why I don't think he would have any trouble being great in the 90's. He would be great and he would dominate in any era, BUT as you said he played in an era that was LESS physical. That means if he played in the 90's his biggest advantage would have been a less of a factor.

Whereas if the roles were reversed, I think Jordan would have been even greater during Bron's era. I think the spacing on top of the defensive 3 seconds makes Jordan even more impossible to guard.

[sdot_thadon]

"I had a poster of these guys dunking in my room therefore what you're saying can't be true..."

Lol what? Sorry bro it's not a narrative, it's the facts of the situation. Back then the defense was allowed to pack the paint. Jordan was able to thrive because half his offense was isolations and pull ups from 12-20 feet. He didn't need to finish at the rim in order to beat you. You're talking about a guy who could back his man down from 15 let off a clean turnaround in a single motion. Fakes. Footwork. Fundamentals.

Bron's scoring advantage was never his skill. Kobe was more skilled. TMac was more skilled. Wade was more skilled. Melo was more skilled. Durant was more skilled. What Bron had over them was strength and explosiveness, ON TOP of being skilled. Obviously it goes without saying that he's also a better passer than all of them, but purely as a scorer in isolation he's not touching any of those guys in terms of pure skill. He's no slouch himself, he's far above average, but those guys were elite elite.

You're right Bron can get physical, which is why I don't think he would have any trouble being great in the 90's. He would be great and he would dominate in any era, BUT as you said he played in an era that was LESS physical. That means if he played in the 90's his biggest advantage would have been a less of a factor.

Whereas if the roles were reversed, I think Jordan would have been even greater during Bron's era. I think the spacing on top of the defensive 3 seconds makes Jordan even more impossible to guard.

Sorry but Im from that era so thats my freshest memories. You make it sound like Mj was the only player to thrive in that environment. He wasn't. I was just bringing to the forefront that plenty of guys with touchy jumpers were also able to thrive and score in the paint with regularity. The whole narrative of the 90s paint being a no fly zone is weak because we all fell in love with dunks in the 90s! Mj was by far the best of the 90s when the dust settled but to act as if he was the only one who could be a great player in that era? Weak.

I honestly think thats where most of you have Lebron all wrong. He's one of the most skilled players ever. You cant be arguably the best all around player to ever lace them without being skilled. Nearly any move you've seen Mj do.....we've seen Lebron do. And Lebron has a few skills Mj doesn't. I get that Mj does most things prettier, and slow motion made some things look even more incredible at the time, but if its just as effective who cares? Plenty of 90s players didn't need Jordan's jumper to be great players. Mj also had strength and explosiveness over everyone that ever checked him, whats your point? Also you're harping on his jumper meanwhile it was the thing the Pistons forced to beat him years in a row. At this point with everything we've seen in 20+ years i think its absurd to think this guy couldn't be great in the 90s.

[ImKobe]

Young Lebron could still make a decent amount of long 2s and shoot 33-35% from 3. He'd still get out on the break and attack opposing defenses before they can get set.

Bigger issue is that I don't think Shaq and Phil would see Lebron the same way as they did KB, and they'd try to make him play more like a Pippen rather than the guy who takes over games in crunch time (MJ). Lebron seems like a nicer teammate than KB because he's more social but his ego is just as big as KB's.

[ShawkFactory]

Young Lebron could still make a decent amount of long 2s and shoot 33-35% from 3. He'd still get out on the break and attack opposing defenses before they can get set.

Bigger issue is that I don't think Shaq and Phil would see Lebron the same way as they did KB, and they'd try to make him play more like a Pippen rather than the guy who takes over games in crunch time (MJ). Lebron seems like a nicer teammate than KB because he's more social but his ego is just as big as KB's.

Different types of ego. Kobe wanted to be dominant to a fault and LeBron wanted to be loved, also to a fault. Lebron is more insecure but with that I think on a personal level with his teammates was more relatable.

Kobe wasn’t MJ though, I think he was ultimately a good guy.

[3ba11]

This is one of these narrative things I'll never understand. Where was the spacing for Mj? Where was the spacing for Pippen, Clyde, Grant Hill, Nique, Barkely, and many others? (the list could get long) Guys in the 90s dunked plenty from driving the lane in the "packed paint" I had posters of a bunch of them. We had guys like Robert Pack, look him up, dunking regularly in the 90s. What makes you think Lebron effing James would do any less than those other guys did.





Barkley and even Hakeem were nowhere near MJ.... And for Lebron to match MJ, he would need to dominate at a HIGHER level than he does today, since that's what MJ did, aka higher PER, BPM, etc.. So obviously LeDrive can't dominate more with less driving lanes - that makes no sense.. He would obviously be less effective with the dreaded post player in all his driving lanes and packed paints.. And he isn't a "banger" like Shaq or Barkley, or Malone, etc..

[ShawkFactory]

Barkley and even Hakeem were nowhere near MJ.... And for Lebron to match MJ, he would need to dominate at a HIGHER level than he does today, since that's what MJ did, aka higher PER, BPM, etc.. So obviously LeDrive can't dominate more with less driving lanes - that makes no sense.. He would obviously be less effective with the dreaded post player in all his driving lanes and packed paints.. And he isn't a "banger" like Shaq or Barkley, or Malone, etc..

He's your age. Crazy to think about isn't it? Dude has been around forever and you're still talking about him as if he's 27.

[sdot_thadon]

Barkley and even Hakeem were nowhere near MJ.... And for Lebron to match MJ, he would need to dominate at a HIGHER level than he does today, since that's what MJ did, aka higher PER, BPM, etc.. So obviously LeDrive can't dominate more with less driving lanes - that makes no sense.. He would obviously be less effective with the dreaded post player in all his driving lanes and packed paints.. And he isn't a "banger" like Shaq or Barkley, or Malone, etc..

They were elite and yeah thanks for reminding us all that Mjs peers were generally a lower level than Lebron's. That said why are you stuck thinking LeBron has to match anything? They play the game very differently, and dominate the game very differently. MJ's way was more a steady flow of buckets, while Lebron tended to play the momentum game more than the scoring one. There were enough driving lanes in the 90s for lesser players and lesser shooters and far less physicalily dominant guys than Lebron to thrive just fine. We never had to hear about some "Lebron rules" because he was backpacking and trucking defenders trying to be physical with him before he was old enough to drink. In ANY era he's still in the 99th percentile of athletic specimens to ever play. He'd be better than fine in the 90s lol.

[sdot_thadon]

He's your age. Crazy to think about isn't it? Dude has been around forever and you're still talking about him as if he's 27.

Ya know? These dudes holding ancient Lebron to prime Mj standards. That says all we need to know about the validity of the debate.

[Axe]

He's your age. Crazy to think about isn't it? Dude has been around forever and you're still talking about him as if he's 27.
Are you one of those stans? At least according to the welfarefan.


a joke and fraud
https://c.tenor.com/3XnPy3tL63oAAAAC/tenor.gif (https://i.ibb.co/g4tnXnv/IMG-20230626-052542.jpg)

[Baller234]

Sorry but Im from that era so thats my freshest memories. You make it sound like Mj was the only player to thrive in that environment. He wasn't. I was just bringing to the forefront that plenty of guys with touchy jumpers were also able to thrive and score in the paint with regularity. The whole narrative of the 90s paint being a no fly zone is weak because we all fell in love with dunks in the 90s! Mj was by far the best of the 90s when the dust settled but to act as if he was the only one who could be a great player in that era? Weak.

I honestly think thats where most of you have Lebron all wrong. He's one of the most skilled players ever. You cant be arguably the best all around player to ever lace them without being skilled. Nearly any move you've seen Mj do.....we've seen Lebron do. And Lebron has a few skills Mj doesn't. I get that Mj does most things prettier, and slow motion made some things look even more incredible at the time, but if its just as effective who cares? Plenty of 90s players didn't need Jordan's jumper to be great players. Mj also had strength and explosiveness over everyone that ever checked him, whats your point? Also you're harping on his jumper meanwhile it was the thing the Pistons forced to beat him years in a row. At this point with everything we've seen in 20+ years i think its absurd to think this guy couldn't be great in the 90s.

First of all I never said Bron wouldn't be great in the 90's. I said CLEARLY that he would be great in any era.

Second, when it comes to scoring no Lebron is not more skilled than Mike and never has been. Mike was more skilled his rookie year than Bron at any point in his career. That's not even a knock on Bron, Bron was just a different type of player.

When it comes to scoring any advantage Bron has comes down purely to size and athleticism, there is no skill gap. With MJ it's a skill gap. Jordan can do things that Bron just flat out can't. Bron can't execute a clean front facing turnaround jumper immediately off the catch. Jordan didn't have the body that Bron had, he had to rely wayy more on his skill and his wits.

Like I said Bron would be a GOAT in any era, but one of the things that gives him an advantage is his size and physicality. That would be offset just a smidge in an era that was more tough and more physical. Meanwhile if MJ gets to play in Bron's time, I don't see anything that could possibly make him less effective. It's the opposite. Perimeter and wing players are way more emboldened during Bron's time.

[sdot_thadon]

Second, when it comes to scoring no Lebron is not more skilled than Mike and never has been.
Thats fair, but its an entirely different can of worms debating skill vs effectiveness.


Mike was more skilled his rookie year than Bron at any point in his career. I grew up as big a Jordan stan as any, but im gonna have to say nah on this one. He had to develop just like anyone else did.


When it comes to scoring any advantage Bron has comes down purely to size and athleticism, there is no skill gap. With MJ it's a skill gap. Jordan can do things that Bron just flat out can't. Bron can't execute a clean front facing turnaround jumper immediately off the catch. Jordan didn't have the body that Bron had, he had to rely wayy more on his skill and his wits.
And this is exaclty why im nah-ing it. When did we collectively decide that Mj didn't have a galactic level athletic advantage over his peers coming into the league and retroactively atribute his entire career excellence to skill and minimize that profound athletic advantage? Rookie Mj was nice but he wasnt 1st 3peat nice and 1st 3peat wasnt as skilled as 2nd 3peat Mj, but ill just leave it at that. Meanwhile getting back to Lebron you guys use his athleticism as a reason to discount his technique. Theres so much film of him out here doing practically any move you've seen Mj do, or anyone do for that matter. In a bigger body to boot. Limitless range etc. Id imagine it takes a high degree of skill to do all the things hes documented on film doing....


Like I said Bron would be a GOAT in any era, but one of the things that gives him an advantage is his size and physicality. That would be offset just a smidge in an era that was more tough and more physical. Meanwhile if MJ gets to play in Bron's time, I don't see anything that could possibly make him less effective. It's the opposite. Perimeter and wing players are way more emboldened during Bron's time.
And to this ill pose the exact same question i didn't get an answer to: what about the 90s makes you think Lebron would be offset? Because smaller guys are going to foul him more cause they cant play D? Because of "big men" that he'll be just as big as in his prime for the most part?

[Baller234]

I don't think Bron would be offset to such a degree that he couldn't be dominant, but in the 90's the driving lanes were less open for business. That's just a fact. Big bodies packed the paint. There was a higher emphasis on rim protection.

Yes Jordan was also a superior athlete during his day just like Bron was, especially in terms of quickness, and yes that gave him a huge edge, but he doesn't have the size or the strength than Bron had. Bron's biggest edge was his ability to blow by and plow through the defense. Jordan could blow by the defense too but he's not muscling his way to the rim like Bron can and he can't cover as much ground. That's why he had to be a savant at finding and exploiting holes. He was basically an autistic genius in the way he navigated and outmaneuvered the defense. In - out - around - up - under. Bron is bigger and stronger than Mike, but he doesn't have the same endless bag of tricks. And that was always evident to me even when Lebron was at his absolute best.

[sdot_thadon]

I don't think Bron would be offset to such a degree that he couldn't be dominant, but in the 90's the driving lanes were less open for business. That's just a fact. Big bodies packed the paint. There was a higher emphasis on rim protection.
"The driving lanes were less open for business" but a guy like Stackhouse was getting 100 plus dunks a couple of seasons with a not so reliable J. Eddie Jones had a 100 dunk season. Even a guy we regarded mostly as a shooter in Glen Rice had as many dunks in 97 as 2nd 3peat Mj did. This is what im getting at. Those guys can get to the rack enough unfiltered to have that many dunks and we somehow think its impossible for Lebron to be Lebron still. Its kinda comical. In the early 90s elite slashers at the wings were alot more rare than the modern game. Yet a guy like Ant, one of the leagues premiere star slashers.....right now, had a season with less dunks than Stackhouse, Jones, pre-injury Grant Hill, 2nd 3peat Mj and Pippen, Mike Finley, Kerry Kittles, Ron Mercer, and injured Penny, bench version of tmac and Kobe, Donyell Marshall(yikes), Doug Christie(lol)...etc.

We have shooting location stats starting in 97, so 2 full seasons of 90s stats. Modern era does have much more dunking, but not how you think its happening. 6'10 and up guys are likely benefiting the most. Meanwhile the perimeter guys save for a couple of young athletic outliers, come in at dunk numbers more like the 90s perimeter guys, and thats without consideration to the 90s having a few standout guys as well. I wish we had more seasons of the 90s to get a bigger picture but it is what it is. Rudy Gobert dunks at a level near prime Shaq....




Yes Jordan was also a superior athlete during his day just like Bron was, especially in terms of quickness, and yes that gave him a huge edge, but he doesn't have the size or the strength than Bron had. Bron's biggest edge was his ability to blow by and plow through the defense. Jordan could blow by the defense too but he's not muscling his way to the rim like Bron can and he can't cover as much ground. That's why he had to be a savant at finding and exploiting holes. He was basically an autistic genius in the way he navigated and outmaneuvered the defense. In - out - around - up - under. Bron is bigger and stronger than Mike, but he doesn't have the same endless bag of tricks. And that was always evident to me even when Lebron was at his absolute best. and id counter Lebron leveraged his advantages as well as anyone we've seen. He has for the most part all the moves these these other guys do, he just didn't need them as often to succeed apparently. One of the most misrepresented parts of Mj imo is yes he had most of the moves in the book, but he didn't use them all the time either. He was able to leverage his athletic advantage to get good looks and get past most defenders with the basics too. Sure he has highlights doing amazing things, they all do. This is why I decidedly kept Kobe below Mj. Because Kobe had every truck in the book and he needed a lot of them to get off even a contested shot at times. The bag is heavy lol.

[Baller234]

Uh, Eddie Jones played with Shaq. I'm pretty sure that had something to do with him being unchecked close to the rim.

Guys like Ant today don't have the volume dunks because teams aren't looking for them. He's not playing with the same mindset that old sg's did. Half of Ant's shots are threes. That's where his focus is.

This is why you can't just look at stats without knowing the story behind them. I don't care what kind of random figures you come up with, fact is it was harder to score at the rim in the 90's. Tony Parker's claim to fame once he became an all-star was leading the league in paint scoring as a small guard. That was noteworthy in real time because it was unheard of prior.

As for Lebron no he does not have the "same moves" as those other guys. That's why Ty Lue drew up the play for Kyrie and not Leron in game 7. If Bron was that guy, he would have gotten the ball there. He would have *demanded* the ball there.

[sdot_thadon]

Uh, Eddie Jones played with Shaq. I'm pretty sure that had something to do with him being unchecked close to the rim.
So did Kobe, so did Wade, etc. There's good basketball reasons for anyone to get good looks bruh.



Guys like Ant today don't have the volume dunks because teams aren't looking for them. He's not playing with the same mindset that old sg's did. Half of Ant's shots are threes. That's where his focus is.
Thank you for the bolded. This argument gets regurgitated so often without the root of it ever being addressed. Of course they shoot more 3s now, you think the paint is more open just because? The paint is open because the defense, in some cases, has to respect the 3 point shot of 5 guys on the floor at the same time.

In the 90s they could pack the paint because they only had to honor a jumper up to 15, maybe 18ft for the most part. The right basketball play for some time was: catching the ball wide open at the 3, taking one or 2 dribbles in and pulling up for a contested midrange jumper. Commentary chastised guys for taking open 3s in alot of cases.


Jordan pulls up from outside for the 18 footer....yes!
Was a normal call to hear.



This is why you can't just look at stats without knowing the story behind them. I don't care what kind of random figures you come up with, fact is it was harder to score at the rim in the 90's. Tony Parker's claim to fame once he became an all-star was leading the league in paint scoring as a small guard. That was noteworthy in real time because it was unheard of prior.
But if you were there, you also know that elite perimeter slashers weren't exactly plentiful in the 90s. As they started entering the league more in the 2nd half of the 90s, suddenly you got guys who could dunk alot more than the previous generation of guards and didnt even necessarily have to be great players. IE the Stackhouse example.



As for Lebron no he does not have the "same moves" as those other guys. That's why Ty Lue drew up the play for Kyrie and not Leron in game 7. If Bron was that guy, he would have gotten the ball there. He would have *demanded* the ball there.
Ive seen videos of him doing almost any move with the ball we've ever ooh-ed or ahh-ed over. I dont even feel its remotely up for debate with that much video evidence out there. Also Lebron told Lue to draw the play for Kyrie. Hed just burned his tank keeping them in the game in the 4th oh and just ran full bore for the block on Iggy. Im pretty sure he was gassing if anyone was. Funniest thing is Lebron hit a similar gamewinner in goldenstate 2 years earlier when he played for the heat jist from the opposite wing.....

I'll reiterate my original point one more time. Lebron is going to be Lebron still in the 90s. But the physicality.....against the most physical perimeter player ever. But the mid range.....he can nail sagging defenses from 30 feet out, let alone the 3point line. He'd be an alien in the 90s, point blank. Hed drive and finish stronger than Mj, pass kinda like Magic, shoot 3s kinda like Bird, and do all this in Karl Malone's body with the speed and explosion of a guard. Crazy to hear when you lay it all out.

[Baller234]

So did Kobe, so did Wade, etc. There's good basketball reasons for anyone to get good looks bruh.

The raw numbers don't tell the whole story. Numbers only tell you something happened, they don't tell you WHY something happened. You only know that EJ had a higher volume of dunks than MJ one year. You don't know how those dunks were earned or what led to those dunks. Take Shaq out of the equation and I'm pretty sure EJ doesn't have more dunks.


Thank you for the bolded. This argument gets regurgitated so often without the root of it ever being addressed. Of course they shoot more 3s now, you think the paint is more open just because? The paint is open because the defense, in some cases, has to respect the 3 point shot of 5 guys on the floor at the same time.

In the 90s they could pack the paint because they only had to honor a jumper up to 15, maybe 18ft for the most part. The right basketball play for some time was: catching the ball wide open at the 3, taking one or 2 dribbles in and pulling up for a contested midrange jumper. Commentary chastised guys for taking open 3s in alot of cases.

The d having to respect the 3 is just one half of the equation, the other half is the d legally not being allowed to camp there. If they got rid of d3sv the defense would still be spread out but at least they could play a true 2-3 zone if they wanted to. They could contest shots and deny the lane. Not every team is loaded with elite shooters from 1-5, some players you can sag.


Ive seen videos of him doing almost any move with the ball we've ever ooh-ed or ahh-ed over. I dont even feel its remotely up for debate with that much video evidence out there. Also Lebron told Lue to draw the play for Kyrie. Hed just burned his tank keeping them in the game in the 4th oh and just ran full bore for the block on Iggy. Im pretty sure he was gassing if anyone was. Funniest thing is Lebron hit a similar gamewinner in goldenstate 2 years earlier when he played for the heat jist from the opposite wing.....

I'll reiterate my original point one more time. Lebron is going to be Lebron still in the 90s. But the physicality.....against the most physical perimeter player ever. But the mid range.....he can nail sagging defenses from 30 feet out, let alone the 3point line. He'd be an alien in the 90s, point blank. Hed drive and finish stronger than Mj, pass kinda like Magic, shoot 3s kinda like Bird, and do all this in Karl Malone's body with the speed and explosion of a guard. Crazy to hear when you lay it all out.

Oof, Bron is your favorite player isn't he.

[sdot_thadon]

The raw numbers don't tell the whole story. Numbers only tell you something happened, they don't tell you WHY something happened. You only know that EJ had a higher volume of dunks than MJ one year. You don't know how those dunks were earned or what led to those dunks. Take Shaq out of the equation and I'm pretty sure EJ doesn't have more dunks.
I never said they told the whole story. I actually was just using them to show you perimeter guys still got into the "packed" paint in 90s and didn't even have to be particularly great to do so. Shaq was in the paint too. So his man was still near the basket. Unless you think Shaq was a stretch big lol. I could care less that Jones had a higher volume season dunking than 2nd 3peat Mj, that wasn't the point. But speaking of older MJ, he had already declined some and was still able to have a season near 100 dunks himself.




The d having to respect the 3 is just one half of the equation, the other half is the d legally not being allowed to camp there. If they got rid of d3sv the defense would still be spread out but at least they could play a true 2-3 zone if they wanted to. They could contest shots and deny the lane. Not every team is loaded with elite shooters from 1-5, some players you can sag.

If between 3 and 5 guys on the floor have respectable 3 point shots no team is camping in tbe paint. They'd be idiots to do so. And yes I said key word in some cases all 5 guys. Imagine camping in the paint agaisnt the 2016 Warriors or even the Cavs, it would be a slaughterhouse.




Oof, Bron is your favorite player isn't he.
Sounds Ike hes yours for sure. But yeah hes my favorite, along with Mj. I hold them both on the same pedestal. But the fact you replied like that prompts me to ask: where's the lie?

[Baller234]

I never said they told the whole story. I actually was just using them to show you perimeter guys still got into the "packed" paint in 90s and didn't even have to be particularly great to do so. Shaq was in the paint too. So his man was still near the basket. Unless you think Shaq was a stretch big lol. I could care less that Jones had a higher volume season dunking than 2nd 3peat Mj, that wasn't the point. But speaking of older MJ, he had already declined some and was still able to have a season near 100 dunks himself.

It means if EJ is driving to the lane it's hard for help d to fully commit and leave Shaq. It means EJ is probably going to get some gimme looks at the basket.


If between 3 and 5 guys on the floor have respectable 3 point shots no team is camping in tbe paint. They'd be idiots to do so. And yes I said key word in some cases all 5 guys. Imagine camping in the paint agaisnt the 2016 Warriors or even the Cavs, it would be a slaughterhouse.

By your own logic if only 3 guys are a threat to score from deep, that means you don't have to play man coverage the entire time. If you get rid of d3s it means teams could play zone more naturally and react to the offense accordingly.

You saw it during the olympics with the fiba rules. Players weren't camped under the basket the entire possession but you did see guys hanging back a lot of the time.


Sounds Ike hes yours for sure. But yeah hes my favorite, along with Mj. I hold them both on the same pedestal. But the fact you replied like that prompts me to ask: where's the lie?

Probably the part where you said he could nail defenses from 30 feet out? Why cause you saw him hit a few select 30 footers? Lol. So that's the gameplan? Sag on Bron so he can take 30 footers? Pretty sure most teams in the 90's could live with that.

We both know that physical strength is part of the equation when it comes to Bron. It's not the only thing that makes him great, he's great at a million other things too, but physical strength is part of it. He's bigger and stronger than the guy guarding him most of the time. This was even more evident as the league transitioned to full on small ball during the 2010's. It wasn't uncommon for Bron to be the biggest and strongest guy on the court sometimes. You watch that finals against the Warriors in 2016 and he looks like Wilt out there, especially once he got close to the basket

Bron would still be Bron in the 90's, he would still be great, but his physical advantages becomes less of a factor in an era where teams on average were bigger and more physical. You might say okay fine he could just rely more on speed and quickness, but that's also gonna be harder for him because there's less spacing and he would have less room to create.

I'll reiterate for the hundredth time, he would still be great. He would still be dominant. He would still adapt. His 2k rating is probably the same or he drops a single point at best. Chances are if he played in the 90's he would have worked more on his back to the basket game.

It's not a knock on Bron to suggest that he would be less effective in the 90's because that applies to everyone else too. The 90's was just a tougher environment to score in. Every great scorer from the 90's would have an easier time scoring in the modern game, and every great scorer in the modern game would have a tougher time scoring in the 90's. Bron is no different.

[TheImmortal]

It's pretty obvious that LeBron wouldn't thrive in the triangle.. he's a flawed basketball player that requires the system to cater his needs. High pick and roll spamming doesn't work in the triangle. I remember Kobe getting that in the Dantoni system at his advanced age and he was tomahawking on the Brooklyn Nets Gerald Wallace and crew.

[sdot_thadon]

It means if EJ is driving to the lane it's hard for help d to fully commit and leave Shaq. It means EJ is probably going to get some gimme looks at the basket.
Which also means no the paint isnt always impenetrable in the 90s, which was one of my original points. I dont care how you come to the conclusion as long as you made it there.



By your own logic if only 3 guys are a threat to score from deep, that means you don't have to play man coverage the entire time. If you get rid of d3s it means teams could play zone more naturally and react to the offense accordingly.

You saw it during the olympics with the fiba rules. Players weren't camped under the basket the entire possession but you did see guys hanging back a lot of the time.
Thats not the point either. In the 90s there were very few threats out side of 15- 18 feet on any given team. I'll say there were a few teams here and there that could put 2 quality shooters on the floor together but most couldnt for basketballl reasons. Back then if you could shoot at an elite level it was highly likely you couldn't do shit else lol. Like move your feet, rebound, or dribble. And to top it off there were elite shooting poiint guards in the 90s but they were held back by basketball strategy of the era.Therefore the floor was rarely stretched to the extent we get now.



Probably the part where you said he could nail defenses from 30 feet out? Why cause you saw him hit a few select 30 footers? Lol. So that's the gameplan? Sag on Bron so he can take 30 footers? Pretty sure most teams in the 90's could live with that.
You called it a lie and then made an excuse for its truth in the same breath. Its ok to admit things that actually happen man lol. I never said anywhere thats a gameplan either. I brought up that as a counter point to thinking a perceived lack of mid range would matter much when the guy can shoot effectively from the parking lot. For instance:


Through Monday, James has made 52.3 percent (23 for 44) S his shots from 28 feet or farther from the hoop,' according to Basketball- Reference.com. That's not only the best this season among players who have taken at least 15 of those shots, but it's also the best anyone has shot from that deep since the 2000-01 season, the furthest back play-by-play data is available on Basketball-Reference.com.
And there's a website/app called YouTube. If you click the little search bar there you'll see countless videos of all the things im telling you here. I promise. Theres not a "few" videos of him hitting super deep 3s. There's tons up to 10-15 min long. Same with him doing all the moves you think he can't. Your welcome.


We both know that physical strength is part of the equation when it comes to Bron. It's not the only thing that makes him great, he's great at a million other things too, but physical strength is part of it. He's bigger and stronger than the guy guarding him most of the time. This was even more evident as the league transitioned to full on small ball during the 2010's. It wasn't uncommon for Bron to be the biggest and strongest guy on the court sometimes. You watch that finals against the Warriors in 2016 and he looks like Wilt out there, especially once he got close to the basket

Bron would still be Bron in the 90's, he would still be great, but his physical advantages becomes less of a factor in an era where teams on average were bigger and more physical. You might say okay fine he could just rely more on speed and quickness, but that's also gonna be harder for him because there's less spacing and he would have less room to create.

I'll reiterate for the hundredth time, he would still be great. He would still be dominant. He would still adapt. His 2k rating is probably the same or he drops a single point at best. Chances are if he played in the 90's he would have worked more on his back to the basket game.

It's not a knock on Bron to suggest that he would be less effective in the 90's because that applies to everyone else too. The 90's was just a tougher environment to score in. Every great scorer from the 90's would have an easier time scoring in the modern game, and every great scorer in the modern game would have a tougher time scoring in the 90's. Bron is no different.

Its also not a stretch to suggest he'd be the same guy in the 90s because hes one of the only modern players physically equipped to handle it. If youre telling me this about Steph, or KD, guys who got bothered by physicality in this less physiclal era? You"d have a point. When did the "lets rough Lebron up" gameplan ever work out great for a team? You probably hate watched Lebron most times so you wouldn't catch the fact that he'd be able to turn loose physically in that era as well. He wouldnt have to hold back using his strength nearly as much in the "halfcout gridiron" of the 90s.