Replace Shaq with Duncan - how many chips for Kobe

[3ba11]

I think they would win from 99' through 10', barring an upset or 2 along the way, so like 9 rings

Remember that Duncan won with 14 PPG sidekick in 03' and had goat-level dominance

[Real Men Wear Green]

Shaq dropped 30 point double-doubles at will. If Duncan would be an upgrade he wouldn't be much of an upgrade.

[Norcaliblunt]

I don’t think they win that many but Duncan definitely keeps Kobe’s ego in check and they contend for many many many years.

[ShawkFactory]

Remember that Duncan won with 14 PPG sidekick in 03' and had goat-level dominance

Ah yes, thank you. This widely discussed and celebrated thing is often forgotten.

[John8204]

9 is crazy but I could see 7, it depends on what the rest of the team looks like and where Shaq ends up. Let's say Shaq stays in Orlando for a 2nd contract he might win a title...then maybe he goes to Dallas. Everyone like to blame Lebron for joining Wade but players were team hopping a lot in the late 90's/earlly 00's.

When MJ decides to come back is he looking at a rebuild again or does he join Kobe/Duncan.
Does Boston move away from Paul Pierce and we end up with Tracy McGrady coming in and playing KG, Allen, and Rondo?

[Norcaliblunt]

Problem is Kobe is a diva.

Dude would definitely show diva BS if Duncan was soaking up all the attention.

[sdot_thadon]

Thats what I was going to say. Its up to Kobe, if he still feels the need to be the only guy to get credit for the success then he won't win any more than he did Shaq, he'll get Duncan shipped for some role players coming off a title win.

[Soundwave]

Duncan is a boring personality who would let Kobe take over as the "top guy" much more quickly without the ego that Shaq had. They would have won 5-6 titles together.

Younger posters may not understand this, but at his peak of popularity in the 90s, Shaq was not only the face of the league, but probably even more popular than any player in the league today (yes even LeBron). Random soccer moms knew who "Shaq" was, because the marketing blitz early in his career had him on TV non-stop, you couldn't turn on the TV without seeing his Pepsi or Reebok commercials, rapping on late night TV, kids wearing Orlando no.32 jerseys all over the place.

That was always going to create friction with someone like Kobe who (lets be honest) saw himself as the successor to Michael Jordan and built his entire game around that concept.

And Shaq being immature himself and egotistical himself only made the situation worse. Like that situation where Kobe was about to break the 40 game game record (multiple games with 40+ points) and Phil Jackson told him to stop scoring so that it wouldn't upset Shaq's ego ... that wouldn't have happened with Duncan. Duncan would've told Kobe to go get the record and been whatever about it, so long as they won.

The other thing is Duncan just wasn't a high volume scorer ... he scored over 22 ppg like 4 times in his career total. Dude would've been fine just putting up 18-21 ppg behind Kobe with no issues. Shaq is a different story, this is a guy who could average 28-30 ppg it was just a matter of getting his touches.

[tpols]

Shaq dropped 30 point double-doubles at will. If Duncan would be an upgrade he wouldn't be much of an upgrade.

The point here is Kobe and Duncan would have zero intangible issues. They'd likely never reach the peak dominance of 2001 playoffs, but would sustain for longer and thus win more rings together. Duncan was a much better defender than Shaq too while being completely unselfish.

[Carbine]

They likely don't win the '00 title and the '02 title is not going to happen because Duncan got hurt.

So that's -2 right off the bat.

Duncan was not going to save Kobe from that '04 finals debacle either.

Duncan and Kobe would have stayed together, longer for sure and perhaps in the late 2000's they scoop of a couple more titles.

[Lebron23]

Probably 3. Kobe is still the sidekick.

[Axe]

9 rings? Eh?

https://c.tenor.com/TiIwUOcN_S0AAAAC/tenor.gif (https://i.ibb.co/JmpGnKz/IMG-20230528-095117.jpg)

[Full Court]

^Autistic idiot just can't help himself. :roll:

https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=http%3A%2F%2Fmedia.tumblr.com%2Ftumblr_lkzuq7hV 9m1qcjzcm.gif&f=1&nofb=1&ipt=4465ea3d9e6742035397c0e9f3c7224f19017b7583f7c4 cfe6a53e4420ae5eb1

[ArbitraryWater]

Is Shaq still on a contender or is he just gone, out of the equation?

[John8204]

They likely don't win the '00 title and the '02 title is not going to happen because Duncan got hurt.

So that's -2 right off the bat.

Duncan was not going to save Kobe from that '04 finals debacle either.

Duncan and Kobe would have stayed together, longer for sure and perhaps in the late 2000's they scoop of a couple more titles.

Spurs don't win in 98/99, Dennis Rodman might not flame out that season

PG - Kobe/Harper
SG - Rice/Fisher
SF - Horry/Fox
PF - Rodman
C - Duncan

Or if Rodman isn't the experiment you could have Olajuwon, Ewing, or Barkley signing at the end of their careers.

[TheImmortal]

Duncan is a boring personality who would let Kobe take over as the "top guy" much more quickly without the ego that Shaq had. They would have won 5-6 titles together.

Younger posters may not understand this, but at his peak of popularity in the 90s, Shaq was not only the face of the league, but probably even more popular than any player in the league today (yes even LeBron). Random soccer moms knew who "Shaq" was, because the marketing blitz early in his career had him on TV non-stop, you couldn't turn on the TV without seeing his Pepsi or Reebok commercials, rapping on late night TV, kids wearing Orlando no.32 jerseys all over the place.

That was always going to create friction with someone like Kobe who (lets be honest) saw himself as the successor to Michael Jordan and built his entire game around that concept.

And Shaq being immature himself and egotistical himself only made the situation worse. Like that situation where Kobe was about to break the 40 game game record (multiple games with 40+ points) and Phil Jackson told him to stop scoring so that it wouldn't upset Shaq's ego ... that wouldn't have happened with Duncan. Duncan would've told Kobe to go get the record and been whatever about it, so long as they won.

The other thing is Duncan just wasn't a high volume scorer ... he scored over 22 ppg like 4 times in his career total. Dude would've been fine just putting up 18-21 ppg behind Kobe with no issues. Shaq is a different story, this is a guy who could average 28-30 ppg it was just a matter of getting his touches.

Excellent post. TPOLS also.

[Phoenix]

- Is Duncan joining the Lakers as Shaq's replacement in 97, and everything else remains the same? ( Kobe is traded from Charlotte, same roster moves, Phil comes onboard)?

- Is Kobe joining the Spurs in 97, then Duncan comes onboard the next year and Robinson is still there? Does Parker and Ginobli still come onboard? What about Kawhi?

- Where is Shaq in this equation? Are we saying peak Shaq between 99-2002 is sitting off in a corner somewhere watching others compete for a title?

There's so many variations on this question. Like, if you did a 'What if' version of the western conference where Duncan and Shaq flip teams or any other number of possibilities, the entire shape of the West changes because there is no way this doesn't have some affect on draft selections, trades and FA signings. I mean, if Shaq doesn't sign with LA does Kobe still go there? What if Shaq stays in Orlando and Penny doesn't get injured? So many branching roads if we want to play this game. If you take the 95 Magic squad and everyone is healthy in 2000, I don't see any reason why Shaq/Penny/Horace/Anderson/Scott aren't the favorites between 99 and 2003. Maybe a couple of those guys swap out, but 30 year old Shaq and (healthy) Penny in 2001 as your anchors? We're either pretending that Shaq stays on the Magic, or he's put on some team like the 15 win 2000 Clippers squad so he's more or less eliminated from being a contender to open the path for this Duncan/Kobe pairing.

Obviously, Kobe and Duncan is a hell of a foundation and I don't see any scenario where there aren't multiple titles in some capacity. I don't think they 3peat, nor do I think they reach the peak dominance of like the 2001 Lakers during that playoff run, but they'll sustain excellence for longer. Duncan shifted his game in the late 2000s to allow for Parker and Ginobli to take on more offensive responsibilities, obviously he'd have no issues doing that for Kobe while still being 19-20ppg/11rpg. I mean Kobe did win in 2009 and 2010 with Pau, so it's not exactly hard to extrapolate pairing him with Duncan, clearly a tier or two above Pau, and figuring whichever organization they're on fills out the roster competently and you'll see the same result at minimum. Generally I hate just dropping players into various situations and ignoring fit, but there's no issue here with this pairing. Kobe and Garnett would have been insane as well. I'm less sure about what happens in the early 2000s.

[HoopsNY]

That duo probably wins more simply because Duncan was younger and more durable given Shaq's weight problems post 2003. 1999 they definitely win a title. Duncan put up an insane 27.4 PPG in the finals that year. It's insane simply because the league averaged just 87 PPG in the playoffs, the lowest since 1952. It was Duncan and co that swept the 1999 Lakers despite a Shaq/Kobe/Rice trio.

[Norcaliblunt]

If you put Jordan on the 1999/2000 Blazers instead of Pippen, Portland beats all of them. Kobe, Shaq, and Duncan.

[Norcaliblunt]

- Is Duncan joining the Lakers as Shaq's replacement in 97, and everything else remains the same? ( Kobe is traded from Charlotte, same roster moves, Phil comes onboard)?

- Is Kobe joining the Spurs in 97, then Duncan comes onboard the next year and Robinson is still there? Does Parker and Ginobli still come onboard? What about Kawhi?

- Where is Shaq in this equation? Are we saying peak Shaq between 99-2002 is sitting off in a corner somewhere watching others compete for a title?

There's so many variations on this question. Like, if you did a 'What if' version of the western conference where Duncan and Shaq flip teams or any other number of possibilities, the entire shape of the West changes because there is no way this doesn't have some affect on draft selections, trades and FA signings. I mean, if Shaq doesn't sign with LA does Kobe still go there? What if Shaq stays in Orlando and Penny doesn't get injured? So many branching roads if we want to play this game. If you take the 95 Magic squad and everyone is healthy in 2000, I don't see any reason why Shaq/Penny/Horace/Anderson/Scott aren't the favorites between 99 and 2003. Maybe a couple of those guys swap out, but 30 year old Shaq and (healthy) Penny in 2001 as your anchors? We're either pretending that Shaq stays on the Magic, or he's put on some team like the 15 win 2000 Clippers squad so he's more or less eliminated from being a contender to open the path for this Duncan/Kobe pairing.

Obviously, Kobe and Duncan is a hell of a foundation and I don't see any scenario where there aren't multiple titles in some capacity. I don't think they 3peat, nor do I think they reach the peak dominance of like the 2001 Lakers during that playoff run, but they'll sustain excellence for longer. Duncan shifted his game in the late 2000s to allow for Parker and Ginobli to take on more offensive responsibilities, obviously he'd have no issues doing that for Kobe while still being 19-20ppg/11rpg. I mean Kobe did win in 2009 and 2010 with Pau, so it's not exactly hard to extrapolate pairing him with Duncan, clearly a tier or two above Pau, and figuring whichever organization they're on fills out the roster competently and you'll see the same result at minimum. Generally I hate just dropping players into various situations and ignoring fit, but there's no issue here with this pairing. Kobe and Garnett would have been insane as well. I'm less sure about what happens in the early 2000s.


Honest opinion. I respect you.

If Jordan joins Portland in 99 instead of Pippen how far does Portland go? Do they beat LA?

Break it down.

Ultimate hypothetical.

[Phoenix]

Honest opinion. I respect you.

If Jordan joins Portland in 99 instead of Pippen how far does Portland go? Do they beat LA?

Break it down.

Ultimate hypothetical.

So you're looking at a situation where MJ doesn't retire( so no 3 years worth of atrophy on top of just getting older). Or does Jordan take the lockout year off, and then comes back for 99/2000? Though remember, MJ cut his finger badly in early 99 which would have affected him. Especially with a lockout, it's quite possible he just takes that season off and comes back the next year. (I'm more inclined to think he joins LA to reunite with Phil, mentor Kobe, then retire in 2000, but we'll stick with your hypothetical that he joins Portland in place of Scottie for the sake of the discussion).

As long as he stays healthy and that little finger slice mishap doesn't happen, either way you're looking at a best case scenario of a slightly worse Jordan than we saw in 98. The difference is there's enough offensive talent on that team that MJ doesn't need to carry the same load here, so he'll be rested for a playoff run. MJ had to carry the Bulls for half of 98 because Scottie was out. With Portland, he can kind of coast more and pick his spots and play the ultimate insurance policy.

Which in all honesty, should be enough to get over the Lakers. The reason Portland loses that series is not having a closer in game 7. You have to figure MJ is easily the difference there, or maybe it doesn't even go 7. A line-up of Rasheed, Steve Smith, Stoudamire, Sabonis, Detlef/Brian Grant/Greg Anthony/Wells off the bench......and Jordan( even an aging one) there to tie it all off? That's a crazy talented line-up( it was with Pippen there, and he was past his prime at this point).

[Phoenix]

That duo probably wins more simply because Duncan was younger and more durable given Shaq's weight problems post 2003. 1999 they definitely win a title. Duncan put up an insane 27.4 PPG in the finals that year. It's insane simply because the league averaged just 87 PPG in the playoffs, the lowest since 1952. It was Duncan and co that swept the 1999 Lakers despite a Shaq/Kobe/Rice trio.

This is a good point, if these two pair up in 97 you've got a 21 year old Duncan and 19 year old Kobe. On top of how their games( and personalities) mesh, you've got way more time to put rosters around them that compete year in, year out.

[Wally450]

Does Duncan play against Duncan if the Lakers play the Spurs?

[sdot_thadon]

Does Duncan play against Duncan if the Lakers play the Spurs?

Id imagine he'd play against spurs Shaq. That would be scary.

[ImKobe]

Thats what I was going to say. Its up to Kobe, if he still feels the need to be the only guy to get credit for the success then he won't win any more than he did Shaq, he'll get Duncan shipped for some role players coming off a title win.

This line of logic makes no sense. Duncan was the opposite of Shaq as a person/leader and didn't require as many touches. They'd have been a perfect fit together.

Kobe didn't get Shaq traded, Shaq got himself traded by demanding too much money while being an injury risk every year due to his weight gain and being unwilling to rehab/get in basketball shape in the off-season.

Duncan would've been a monster in the triangle and a perfect fit next to Kobe, similar to Pau but better on both ends.

[Axe]

Shaq's dominance was unbelievable. But duncan was a lot more consistent and versatile overall.


no sense
http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/image.php?u=827668&dateline=1624237688&type=thumb (https://i.ibb.co/RpQNPqx/IMG-20221122-211833.jpg)

[tpols]

Id imagine he'd play against spurs Shaq. That would be scary.

The Spurs guard talent was weak in the early 2000s. Shaq ain't winning with that.