Did Shohei Ohtani just have the greatest individual game in sports history?

[1987_Lakers]

3 HRs
10 strikeouts
3 hits allowed
0 runs allowed


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2BTtGWQfIgA

[warriorfan]

Idk off the top of my head, probably.

He’s like the movie The Natural, but it’s real life.

[BurningHammer]

Definitely 1st ballot HoFer at this point.

Not sure how far he can both pitch and bat, but we will enjoy these unique feats in the next few years to come.

[1987_Lakers]

Definitely 1st ballot HoFer at this point.

Way to go out on the limb. :oldlol:

Forget 1st ballot HOFer, this might be the best player since Babe Ruth.

[BurningHammer]

Way to go out on the limb. :oldlol:

Forget 1st ballot HOFer, this might be the best player since Babe Ruth.

I mean, Shohei could break his back and ended his career tomorrow. He could still get in the HoF anyway if that somehow even happened. :oldlol:

But that is extremely unlikely and he may be considered the unanimous GOAT in baseball ala Tom Brady in American football very soon.

[GOBB]

I mean, Shohei could break his back and ended his career tomorrow. He could still get in the HoF anyway if that somehow even happened. :oldlol:

But that is extremely unlikely and he may be considered the unanimous GOAT in baseball ala Tom Brady in American football very soon.

Barry bonds was better

[SouBeachTalents]

It’s pretty obvious that it is. This would be like Mahomes throwing for 5 TD’s and recording a pick and 2 sacks.

[1987_Lakers]

Barry bonds was better

Roids

[GOBB]

Roids

First ballot hall of famer before alleged roid usage. Goat

[ArbitraryWater]

I see the comments fawning over Ohtani, people saying theyve never seen anything like him and how amazing it is to be able to watch him play live...


naturally, defensive and insecure as he is, Gobb is in here unprovoked saying a black is better than the white asian.

[ArbitraryWater]

So, I dont know shit about baseball, how common is it for a player to throw and bat? Or be the best at both, which he seems to be?

[1987_Lakers]

First ballot hall of famer before alleged roid usage. Goat

Sure, but he still had his best hitting seasons while he was juiced up.

[1987_Lakers]

So, I dont know shit about baseball, how common is it for a player to throw and bat? Or be the best at both, which he seems to be?

Very rare. As far as hitting and pitching at that level, it hasn't been seen since Babe Ruth.

Ohtani also stole 59 bases last season, first player ever with 50 home runs and 50 stolen bases in a season.

[GOBB]

Sure, but he still had his best hitting seasons while he was juiced up.

Barry the only player in mlb history with 400hr 400sb before “roids”. Tell me more

[GOBB]

I see the comments fawning over Ohtani, people saying theyve never seen anything like him and how amazing it is to be able to watch him play live...


naturally, defensive and insecure as he is, Gobb is in here unprovoked saying a black is better than the white asian.

Race baiting is your skill. If I would have said someone like Ted Williams tell me the response? Wait I’ll do it for you…”Gobb hates Asians it’s been proven on ISH already. No shocked this response”.

[1987_Lakers]

Barry the only player in mlb history with 400hr 400sb before “roids”. Tell me more

Bonds never had a season where he stole 59 bases.

Bonds never even pitched before while Ohtani finished top 4 in Cy Young voting.

Bonds isn't even the best Giants player ever. Mays was better.

[ArbitraryWater]

Very rare. As far as hitting and pitching at that level, it hasn't been seen since Babe Ruth.

Ohtani also stole 59 bases last season, first player ever with 50 home runs and 50 stolen bases in a season.

And players have to do both or can they sub someone else in for the other task?

[1987_Lakers]

And players have to do both or can they sub someone else in for the other task?

Pitchers are usually terrible hitters. Most pitchers don't even bat, when they are pitching for the day they are usually subbed out for another hitter.

If you pitched for the National League, your pitcher was forced to hit during the game, but they changed that rule a couple of years ago so they no longer have to bat.

[ArbitraryWater]

Pitchers are usually terrible hitters. Most pitchers don't even bat, when they are pitching for the day they are usually subbed out for another hitter.

If you pitched for the National League, your pitcher was forced to hit during the game, but they changed that rule a couple of years ago so they no longer have to bat.


Interesting, thanks

[GOBB]

Bonds never had a season where he stole 59 bases.

Bonds never even pitched before while Ohtani finished top 4 in Cy Young voting.

Bonds isn't even the best Giants player ever. Mays was better.

No. Mays best giant ever. Bonds best player ever.

[1987_Lakers]

No. Mays best giant ever. Bonds best player ever.

Relative to their era Babe Ruth will never be topped. He was hitting more home runs than some teams and also had a season where he was the best pitcher in the American League.

Not even MJ was that dominant. Ruth was by far the best athlete of the 20th century.

[ShawkFactory]

So, I dont know shit about baseball, how common is it for a player to throw and bat? Or be the best at both, which he seems to be?

Never has happened like this before.

[GOBB]

Relative to their era Babe Ruth will never be topped. He was hitting more home runs than some teams and also had a season where he was the best pitcher in the American League.

Not even MJ was that dominant. Ruth was by far the best athlete of the 20th century.

Didn’t see babe Ruth play. Didn’t see Wilt play. Barry goat. MJ goat. :confusedshrug:

[1987_Lakers]

1920
Ruth - 54 home runs
#2 guy - 19 home runs

Ruth did that with beer.

Bonds needed steroids to surpass him in home runs and did it in an era where home runs came by easier.

Ruth was so far ahead of his time it's ridiculous. The only facet of the game where you could give Ruth a negative is his fielding. He wasn't bad, but clearly not on the level of Mays or Bonds in their primes. Mays is probably the best player ever if we are only taking hitting/fielding into account.

The only problem is Ruth is by far the best hitter ever and at one point was one of the best pitchers in the league. Still holds the record for most innings pitched in a world series game with 14 innings, a game where he only gave up 1 run.

[warriorfan]

Roids

Was literally the best player in baseball before roids lol.

[warriorfan]

1920
Ruth - 54 home runs
#2 guy - 19 home runs

Ruth did that with beer.

Bonds needed steroids to surpass him in home runs and did it in an era where home runs came by easier.

Ruth was so far ahead of his time it's ridiculous. The only facet of the game where you could give Ruth a negative is his fielding. He wasn't bad, but clearly not on the level of Mays or Bonds in their primes. Mays is probably the best player ever if we are only taking hitting/fielding into account.

The only problem is Ruth is by far the best hitter ever and at one point was one of the best pitchers in the league. Still holds the record for most innings pitched in a world series game with 14 innings, a game where he only gave up 1 run.

What happened to your “we done with the 90’s” because they were all bums arguments lol

[1987_Lakers]

Was literally the best player in baseball before roids lol.

Prime Bonds was only averaging 36 home runs a year before he took steroids. Then later on had a 5 year stretch in his mid-late 30's where he averaged 50 home runs with steroids.

Wouldn't even be in the convo with Ruth or Mays if he played clean.

[1987_Lakers]

What happened to your “we done with the 90’s” because they were all bums arguments lol

We are done with the 90's because Bonds was apart of it.

[warriorfan]

Prime Bonds was only averaging 36 home runs a year before he took steroids. Then later on had a 5 year stretch in his mid-late 30's where he averaged 50 home runs with steroids.

Wouldn't even be in the convo with Ruth or Mays if he played clean.

You never played baseball and don’t understand the game

[warriorfan]

We are done with the 90's because Bonds was apart of it.

Yeah you discredit MJ and wilt for supposedly playing with firemen and plumbers or whatever but then you use the dominance over their peers argument to say Ruth is the goat.

You have no intellectual consistency and it’s pretty clownish. You don’t have consistent trains of thought you basically just pick a person who you like randomly and backtrack doing logical gymnastics to justify it.

[GOBB]

1920
Ruth - 54 home runs
#2 guy - 19 home runs

Ruth did that with beer.

Bonds needed steroids to surpass him in home runs and did it in an era where home runs came by easier.

Ruth was so far ahead of his time it's ridiculous. The only facet of the game where you could give Ruth a negative is his fielding. He wasn't bad, but clearly not on the level of Mays or Bonds in their primes. Mays is probably the best player ever if we are only taking hitting/fielding into account.

The only problem is Ruth is by far the best hitter ever and at one point was one of the best pitchers in the league. Still holds the record for most innings pitched in a world series game with 14 innings, a game where he only gave up 1 run.

Babe Ruth didn’t play against people of color because they were not allowed in MLB during his “dominance”. If you’re going to use roids in Barry case why wouldn’t someone be able to run off a lot of great players that weren’t allowed in MLB when Ruth played? Do you not acknowledge them? Or were whites so far superior than folks of color that the fact there was a color barrier it didn’t matter. And people of color only became good at baseball later in life far past when Babe Ruth was still alive?


Babe is definately in a goat convo. Willie Mays too. I’m going with what I actually saw, experienced. Hard for me to say Babe was better because the research report shows his stats. As great as they may be I just didn’t see it. Most people’s goats are usually athletes people saw. It’s rarely someone is the goat or best at____ where a fan simply never saw them play.

[GOBB]

Ohtani is amazing. And I haven’t even followed his career to fully grasp how amazing he is that baseball fans have. What I saw I don’t think I’ve ever been in awe of a baseball performance since Tatis grand salamis. Not that it’s relevant to his baseball career but how is his English? I was just thinking from a marketing standpoint if his English was solid how much he could be in everyone’s faces. But also he may not have the personality for it regardless. Someone mentioned he isn’t the flashy, braggadocious type. You don’t want to market someone that’s reserved. They need some type of flair.

Another moment which I liked was the padres fan taunting him as his seat was near the on deck circle (how much are those seats??). Then Ohtani smacks a HR and gives the guy a high 5. lol

[Hey Yo]

Barry bonds was better

Dumb

[1987_Lakers]

You never played baseball and don’t understand the game

You say I have no intellectual consistency, yet this was your post to refute one of my points. Lmao.

Elementary level intellect.

[1987_Lakers]

Babe Ruth didn’t play against people of color because they were not allowed in MLB during his “dominance”. If you’re going to use roids in Barry case why wouldn’t someone be able to run off a lot of great players that weren’t allowed in MLB when Ruth played? Do you not acknowledge them? Or were whites so far superior than folks of color that the fact there was a color barrier it didn’t matter. And people of color only became good at baseball later in life far past when Babe Ruth was still alive?


Babe is definately in a goat convo. Willie Mays too. I’m going with what I actually saw, experienced. Hard for me to say Babe was better because the research report shows his stats. As great as they may be I just didn’t see it. Most people’s goats are usually athletes people saw. It’s rarely someone is the goat or best at____ where a fan simply never saw them play.

That’s fair. You could use the race thing against Ruth. Only difference is Ruth had nothing to do with that and didn’t cheat the game, unlike Bonds. There is a reason why he isn’t in the hall of fame.

[1987_Lakers]

Yeah you discredit MJ and wilt for supposedly playing with firemen and plumbers or whatever

I have Bill Russell in my top 4 ever. I shit more on Wilt for all his chokes.

And the only time I really shit on MJ is when the LeBron haters like yourself go full troll mode.

[1987_Lakers]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NMfBdEV03j8

[warriorfan]

You say I have no intellectual consistency, yet this was your post to refute one of my points. Lmao.

Elementary level intellect.

I’m not gonna waste my time with someone who doesn’t grasp basic baseball shit and has zero consistency with his arguments. Go watch YouTube’s and parrot their bullshit like you always do.

You are a repeater. You are unable to formulate logical thoughts or your own.

[1987_Lakers]

I’m not gonna waste my time with someone who doesn’t grasp basic baseball shit and has zero consistency with his arguments. Go watch YouTube’s and parrot their bullshit like you always do.

You are a repeater. You are unable to formulate logical thoughts or your own.

Your best argument is "You don't understand baseball"

lmaoooo

Bonds' legacy will forever be stained because of steroids. Everywhere he goes, people quietly say "steroids". I know this because I bumped into him once in SF and the moment he left, people called him a cheater. :oldlol:

[warriorfan]

Your best argument is "You don't understand baseball"

lmaoooo

Bonds' legacy will forever be stained because of steroids. Everywhere he goes, people quietly say "steroids". I know this because I bumped into him once in SF and the moment he left, people called him a cheater. :oldlol:

….

What? lol

You don’t know baseball. Or anything about San Francisco.

[AlternativeAcc.]

Some guy in the 70s threw a no-hitter and had 2 HRs at the plate lol. Ohtanis game is up there though.

I think Ohtani has the potential to surpass Bonds' peak but it will never come to fruition because the Dodgers will never overuse him in the regular season. If he hits and runs the bases like 2024, and pitches like 2022 over a full season it would be the greatest season ever. But that will never happen, even though I think he could actually do it. Not only that but i guarentee he has the ability to be one of the best outfielders in the league.

What Bonds did in the early 2000s though is ludicrous and will probably never be surpassed. Best set of eyeballs in history.

[Baller234]

Very rare. As far as hitting and pitching at that level, it hasn't been seen since Babe Ruth.

Ohtani also stole 59 bases last season, first player ever with 50 home runs and 50 stolen bases in a season.

Rule change.

[AlternativeAcc.]

The crazy thing about Bonds is that he was robbed of several MVPs in the 90s because analytics weren't a thing yet. Realistically he should've had like 6 MVPs before ever taking steroids - and was already the intentional walk record holder by 1999, before his absurd early 2000s run. By 1998 he had over 400 HRs and 400 SBs, and to this day is the only player to do it, let alone being the only guy in the 500/500 club. And those numbers are more impressive in hindsight because a lot of guys were already juicing during that time... there's a reason why when Bonds started juicing he led the league in OPS by like 300 points during that time.

Bonds is 100% the GOAT.

[GOBB]

Some guy in the 70s threw a no-hitter and had 2 HRs at the plate lol. Ohtanis game is up there though..

Ohtani did it in a postseason series clincher. The stakes were different than the game you reference. They enhanced the impressive meter more than a regular season game. Great nonetheless but the reason Ohtani edges it out is quite obvious.

[AlternativeAcc.]

Ohtani did it in a postseason series clincher. The stakes were different than the game you reference. They enhanced the impressive meter more than a regular season game. Great nonetheless but the reason Ohtani edges it out is quite obvious.

I'd like the argument more if they weren't up 3-0 and the Brewers didn't have a combined 2 runs for the series up to that point, but sure. The postseason context opens up a huge can of worms. Do you then assign more greatness to Bob Gipson pitching a complete game in game 7 of the world series, allowing only 3 hits and hitting a HR?

The question was about greatest individual performance in a vacuum, and the dude in 1971 had logically a more impressive game.

[GOBB]

I'd like the argument more if they weren't up 3-0 and the Brewers didn't have a combined 2 runs for the series up to that point, but sure. The postseason context opens up a huge can of worms. Do you then assign more greatness to Bob Gipson pitching a complete game in game 7 of the world series, allowing only 3 hits and hitting a HR?

The question was about greatest individual performance in a vacuum, and the dude in 1971 had logically a more impressive game.

Hard to even take the argument seriously when you don’t know the players name. Team they played for. Team he faced. Or any details because we’ll not many knew until Ohtani did what he did. I’m willing to bet if the topic was greatest baseball performances of all time. He still goes unnamed. I’m a Phillies fan and I didn’t even know. Let argue on something logically they we flat out didn’t see. And well you don’t even know his name lol

[1987_Lakers]

The crazy thing about Bonds is that he was robbed of several MVPs in the 90s because analytics weren't a thing yet. Realistically he should've had like 6 MVPs before ever taking steroids

That's a stretch. The only year you could say he got robbed is maybe 1991.

[AlternativeAcc.]

Hard to even take the argument seriously when you don’t know the players name. Team they played for. Team he faced. Or any details because we’ll not many knew until Ohtani did what he did. I’m willing to bet if the topic was greatest baseball performances of all time. He still goes unnamed. I’m a Phillies fan and I didn’t even know. Let argue on something logically they we flat out didn’t see. And well you don’t even know his name lol

Mentioning his name doesn't change the fact that throwing a complete game no-hitter and hitting 2 HRs is more individually impressive than throwing 6 shutout innings and hitting 3HRs.

One guy essentially won the game by himself, whereas the other guy let the door open for a loss by allowing hits and not pitching the last 3 innings. It's a logical argument, so I'm not surprised you don't understand it or take it seriously.

If you want to add postseason context then there a lot of much higher leverage performances in the history of sports than being up 3-0 against a team with 2 runs total for the series. There has literally only been 1 team in baseball history to come back from 3-0, so the high stakes argument isn't all that great and opens up a huge amount of potential superior performances.

[AlternativeAcc.]

That's a stretch. The only year you could say he got robbed is maybe 1991.

I'm judging by today's standards, 1991 isn't a maybe, he wins easily. But even if you want to ignore the MVP snubs he still led the league in OPS for the 90s decade and was top 6 in stolen bases, while being a premier defender. All while competing with guys who were juicing.

[GOBB]

1971 Phillies pitcher Rick Wise pitched a no hitter (1 BB from a perfect game) to the Reds. Also known back then as the Cincinnati Big Red Machine that featured guys like Joe Morgan Tony Perez Pete Rose Johnny Bench. Since people want to list something they don’t know the year, the name, the teams etc

I get it tho. Someone mentioning it on socials after Ohtani and you want to run in with the Hey Did U Kno3 news. But with no details or context. Hilarious. I love people. Unique beings

[GOBB]

6 is a stretch as far as MVPs. But more (multiple) than he did for sure. I agree there. People can talk the roids all they want but prior to allegations he was 1 of 1

[AlternativeAcc.]

1971 Phillies pitcher Rick Wise pitched a no hitter (1 BB from a perfect game) to the Reds. Also known back then as the Cincinnati Big Red Machine that featured guys like Joe Morgan Tony Perez Pete Rose Johnny Bench. Since people want to list something they don’t know the year, the name, the teams etc

I get it tho. Someone mentioning it on socials after Ohtani and you want to run in with the Hey Did U Kno3 news. But with no details or context. Hilarious. I love people. Unique beings

This is where your low IQ and and lack of self-awareness really shines bright.

Pretending I mentioned that game for some sort of recognition is a bizarre projection. I mentioned the game because it's more individually impressive than Ohtani's game in a vacuum. Nobody in this thread was aware of the game or watched it live, so going into the details would be overkill. Only a dumb **** like you would create some strawman out of thin air because you crave getting embarrassed on an internet forum lol.

[warriorfan]

The crazy thing about Bonds is that he was robbed of several MVPs in the 90s because analytics weren't a thing yet. Realistically he should've had like 6 MVPs before ever taking steroids - and was already the intentional walk record holder by 1999, before his absurd early 2000s run. By 1998 he had over 400 HRs and 400 SBs, and to this day is the only player to do it, let alone being the only guy in the 500/500 club. And those numbers are more impressive in hindsight because a lot of guys were already juicing during that time... there's a reason why when Bonds started juicing he led the league in OPS by like 300 points during that time.

Bonds is 100% the GOAT.

The analytics thing is true but it was probably more about Bond’s visceral hatred towards the media. He hated them and they like wise hated him back.

But it is amazing how people don’t even realize how good pre steroid Barry was. He was the greatest in the game by a good margin.

He only started juicing when bums like Sammy Sosa started going off and approaching his status.

Then when he juiced he immediately took his throne back as the greatest

[AlternativeAcc.]

6 is a stretch as far as MVPs. But more (multiple) than he did for sure. I agree there. People can talk the roids all they want but prior to allegations he was 1 of 1

It's not a stretch at all

In 1996 he had 40/40 and led the leave in walks and WAR by a huge margin. Finished 5th. With today's voting that's a unanimous MVP.

[tpols]

That’s fair. You could use the race thing against Ruth. Only difference is Ruth had nothing to do with that and didn’t cheat the game, unlike Bonds. There is a reason why he isn’t in the hall of fame.

Everybody was using roids in Bonds era. Youd have to be extremely naive to not know that. He didnt cheat the game, he leveled the playing field. But he was already so much better naturally that when he did that he turned into Shaq. :lol

[AlternativeAcc.]

The analytics thing is true but it was probably more about Bond’s visceral hatred towards the media. He hated them and they like wise hated him back.

But it is amazing how people don’t even realize how good pre steroid Barry was. He was the greatest in the game by a good margin.

He only started juicing when bums like Sammy Sosa started going off and approaching his status.

Then when he juiced he immediately took his throne back as the greatest

And that's the thing, he started juicing when he was already out of his prime and still went on to have the best 4 year stretch in sports history. He wasn't just the best in the game, he was literally in a different stratosphere than the next best guys during that time.

Had he been juicing for the entire 90s, I mean, we're talking about some real alien type shit.

[1987_Lakers]

Everybody was using roids in Bonds era. Youd have to be extremely naive to not know that. He didnt cheat the game, he leveled the playing field. But he was already so much better naturally that when he did that he turned into Shaq. :lol

Doesn't matter. Steroids give hitters a much bigger advantage than pitchers who take it. All of those batting stats from that era should be taken off history.

1. Ruth
2. Mays

The rest are fighting for #3.

[warriorfan]

Doesn't matter. Steroids give hitters a much bigger advantage than pitchers who take it. All of those batting stats from that era should be taken off history.

1. Ruth
2. Mays

The rest are fighting for #3.

You’re a dipshit. lol.

[GOBB]

Guy reads about Rick wise on Reddit and wants to throw his hat in the race hahaha You dudes here can be so damn phony.

[GOBB]

Doesn't matter. Steroids give hitters a much bigger advantage than pitchers who take it. All of those batting stats from that era should be taken off history.

1. Ruth
2. Mays

The rest are fighting for #3.

Now post the greatest players YOU have ever seen.

[GOBB]

It's not a stretch at all

In 1996 he had 40/40 and led the leave in walks and WAR by a huge margin. Finished 5th. With today's voting that's a unanimous MVP.

Bonds is my goat so I’m not going to give you push back on it. I watched him and he was really like that.

[1987_Lakers]

Now post the greatest players YOU have ever seen.

1. Ohtani

2. The rest.

I saw Bonds during the early-mid 00's. Since I live in the bay area I got to watch a shit ton of his regular season games. It was amazing to watch, the hype around him was crazy, but steroids give him an asterisk.

[GOBB]

1. Ohtani

2. The rest.

I saw Bonds during the early-mid 00's. Since I live in the bay area I got to watch a shit ton of his regular season games. It was amazing to watch, the hype around him was crazy, but steroids give him an asterisk.


Cool. I’m curious about “the rest”. No agenda, or motive on my end either.

[1987_Lakers]

Cool. I’m curious about “the rest”. No agenda, or motive on my end either.

Pujols and Trout immediately come to mind. Ichrio was a menace too, just didn't have HR power. A-Rod was a monster too, but gets points taken off because of steroids.

[1987_Lakers]

More perspective on Babe Ruth as a pitcher.

Walter Johnson is usually the choice for GOAT pitcher, he played in Ruth's era.

Ruth actually had a lower ERA as a pitcher than Johnson did in two years. This was prime Johnson too.

1916
Ruth - 1.75 ERA (Would have won Cy Young award if that was a thing back then)
Johnson - 1.90 ERA

1917
Ruth - 2.01 ERA
Johnson - 2.21 ERA

[warriorfan]

1. Ohtani

2. The rest.

I saw Bonds during the early-mid 00's. Since I live in the bay area I got to watch a shit ton of his regular season games. It was amazing to watch, the hype around him was crazy, but steroids give him an asterisk.

So you never saw pre steroid bonds.

Checks out because you don’t know anything about it apparently lol.

Coming from someone who followed him when he was on the Pirates that thought I was being pranked when I heard he’s coming to the Giants…He was the best player in the league before he even came to San Francisco.

[1987_Lakers]

So you never saw pre steroid bonds.

Checks out because you don’t know anything about it apparently lol.

Coming from someone who followed him when he was on the Pirates that thought I was being pranked when I heard he’s coming to the Giants…He was the best player in the league before he even came to San Francisco.

That would make you like 45. I don't believe you are that old. If so, you have to be the most immature middle aged man I have encountered. :oldlol:

I didn't see pre steroids Bonds but know how highly regarded he was. He peaked as a hitter when he was on steroids though, that isn't even a debate.

Only thing Bonds was better at during the 90's was fielding and stealing bases, but even as a defensive fielder during the 90's he didn't really blow you away, people always shitted on his weak arm.

Mays had the total package. Pre steroids Bonds as a hitter was basically Mays level, Bonds was probably slightly better, but Mays as a defensive fielder was superior, some have him as the best defensive center fielder ever.

[ShawkFactory]

Yea Bonds was the better hitter in the league for a decade almost before the steroids. Smart player who ran the bases well too and was excellent defensively, albeit in left field so not as important.

GOAT talks are tough because the roid years really play into it. Without 2000-2004 he’s still a first ballot guy and top 15 or something like that.

Really hard to compare him to Ruth or Ted Williams. Or Mays. Or Mantle even, who doesn’t get talked about enough. He had some injuries that stifled a few of his prime years but at his best he was absolutely as good as Mays. Better hitter for sure. Not the same force athletically of course but his dominance at the plate made up for it.

[1987_Lakers]

I feel Pedro Martinez gets kinda forgotten as the years progress.

Didn't have the longevity to be the GOAT pitcher, but in his prime (late 90's - early 00's) he was probably the best to ever do it or at least top 3 ever.

His ERA+ numbers in his prime which is ERA comparing it to league average is the best ever. To have a 2.20 ERA in a 7 year span at the peak of the steroid era is pretty crazy.

[ShawkFactory]

I feel Pedro Martinez gets kinda forgotten as the years progress.

Didn't have the longevity to be the GOAT pitcher, but in his prime (late 90's - early 00's) he was probably the best to ever do it or at least top 3 ever.

His ERA+ numbers in his prime which is ERA comparing it to league average is the best ever. To have a 2.20 ERA in a 7 year span at the peak of the steroid era is pretty crazy.

Nahhh. Him, Maddux, Clemens, and Unit are timeless. 4 of the probably 8-10 best ever all pitching at the same time was cool.

[1987_Lakers]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RN1nUnCr1QM

My goodness

[ShawkFactory]

Of all the greatest pitchers in that era I think Clemens actually gets forgotten the most. The later steroid aspect certainly doesn't help but he was such a dawg.

7 Cy's. Only 5 instances in MLB history of 20 K's in a game and he has 2 of them.

You always hear about Maddux (76 pitch complete game shutout), Pedro (4 pitch dominance), and Johnson (struck everyone out) and rightfully so but he doesn't get mentioned much.

[1987_Lakers]

Yea Bonds was the better hitter in the league for a decade almost before the steroids. Smart player who ran the bases well too and was excellent defensively, albeit in left field so not as important.

GOAT talks are tough because the roid years really play into it. Without 2000-2004 he’s still a first ballot guy and top 15 or something like that.

Really hard to compare him to Ruth or Ted Williams. Or Mays. Or Mantle even, who doesn’t get talked about enough. He had some injuries that stifled a few of his prime years but at his best he was absolutely as good as Mays. Better hitter for sure. Not the same force athletically of course but his dominance at the plate made up for it.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wj8iMqKeBKk&t

[Hey Yo]

Hey Barry.... don't fukk with me!

https://x.com/nut_history/status/1608614942395232256?s=19

[SouBeachTalents]

Of all the greatest pitchers in that era I think Clemens actually gets forgotten the most. The later steroid aspect certainly doesn't help but he was such a dawg.

7 Cy's. Only 5 instances in MLB history of 20 K's in a game and he has 2 of them.

You always hear about Maddux (76 pitch complete game shutout), Pedro (4 pitch dominance), and Johnson (struck everyone out) and rightfully so but he doesn't get mentioned much.
Really, I feel like Maddux doesn't get talked about at all.

I'm not going to say he's necessarily underrated or anything, but since we're on the topic of pitchers from that era, I think it's insane Schilling never made the HOF. He and Johnson were arguably the greatest pitching duo ever in '01, they annihilated everyone in their path including the dynasty Yankees. That's not even mentioning his iconic run with the Sox in '04.

[ShawkFactory]

Really, I feel like Maddux doesn't get talked about at all.

I'm not going to say he's necessarily underrated or anything, but since we're on the topic of pitchers from that era, I think it's insane Schilling never made the HOF. He and Johnson were arguably the greatest pitching duo ever in '01, they annihilated everyone in their path including the dynasty Yankees. That's not even mentioning his iconic run with the Sox in '04.

In baseball circle I think that Maddux is pretty well-represented. To this day any time a pitcher throws a complete game in under 100 pitches a lot of people call it a "Maddux".

[tontoz]

I was living in Atlanta during the Maddux years and he was a guy that chose to keep a low profile. Smoltz was everywhere doing commercials and appearances but Maddux didn't. He had almost reverse charisma.

I played a pickup game with some of the Braves once. Smoltz isn't as big as he looked on TV but Avery was bigger than he looked on TV lol. Afterwards Smoltz was wandering around the gym asking for $10 to pay the guest fee.

:facepalm

[GOBB]

Maddux gets talked about in baseball circles for sure. I also come across a lot of content involving Maddox pitching. Roger Clemens lack of mention is due to steroids.

[imdaman99]

Degrom is a pitcher strictly and had at least a game or 2 hitting a home run winning 1-0. While obviously not as dramatic as a playoff game but how much pressure was it being up 3-0 in a series playing an overmatched and shook team?

You guys thump your chests when he's hitting 3HRs in a 14-0 game. But running up your stats in a blowout win ain't impressing me. Hating aside it was a great game :lol

[Baller234]

The Bonds steroid thing is a really slippery slope.

Bonds was great pre-steroids and was already on his way to being one of the best ever, but he still doesn't reach the heights he did without them. He went to a totally different level after taking them, just like McGuire and Sosa. He was better than them so he reached even greater heights.

But the reason I say it's slippery is because where do you draw the line. From the 50's-70's all the players were on amphetamines. If you're gonna call Bonds a cheater because he took steroids then the same logic should apply to them too. Also the guys who were on cocaine during the 80's.

[GOBB]

The Bonds steroid thing is a really slippery slope.

Bonds was great pre-steroids and was already on his way to being one of the best ever, but he still doesn't reach the heights he did without them. He went to a totally different level after taking them, just like McGuire and Sosa. He was better than them so he reached even greater heights.

But the reason I say it's slippery is because where do you draw the line. From the 50's-70's all the players were on amphetamines. If you're gonna call Bonds a cheater because he took steroids then the same logic should apply to them too. Also the guys who were on cocaine during the 80's.

Cocaine is not giving you an unfair advantage. What kind of nonsense did you just type? lol The effects of cocaine doesn’t even last long. Nice swing and miss there bud.

[warriorfan]

Of all the greatest pitchers in that era I think Clemens actually gets forgotten the most. The later steroid aspect certainly doesn't help but he was such a dawg.

7 Cy's. Only 5 instances in MLB history of 20 K's in a game and he has 2 of them.

You always hear about Maddux (76 pitch complete game shutout), Pedro (4 pitch dominance), and Johnson (struck everyone out) and rightfully so but he doesn't get mentioned much.

That’s wild about the 20k’s only 5 times.

Off top of my head if you said Clemens has two.

I remember Kerry Wood had a meteoric rise before injuries and he clocked one in.

I’m guessing the others were Pedro Martinez (who I low key think was modern day goat pitcher) and big unit

[warriorfan]

Cocaine is not giving you an unfair advantage. What kind of nonsense did you just type? lol The effects of cocaine doesn’t even last long. Nice swing and miss there bud.

Look up greenies dude. Baseball season is a grind and amphetamines are performance enhancers big time.

[warriorfan]

I was living in Atlanta during the Maddux years and he was a guy that chose to keep a low profile. Smoltz was everywhere doing commercials and appearances but Maddux didn't. He had almost reverse charisma.

I played a pickup game with some of the Braves once. Smoltz isn't as big as he looked on TV but Avery was bigger than he looked on TV lol. Afterwards Smoltz was wandering around the gym asking for $10 to pay the guest fee.

:facepalm

I was a low key Atlanta fan even though I hated them because they were so good in the 90’s. McGriiff and Justice were legit. But their pitching staff was unreal. Maddox, , Glavin, Smoltz, Avery as your number 4 starting pitcher? Ridiculous.

[warriorfan]

I was living in Atlanta during the Maddux years and he was a guy that chose to keep a low profile. Smoltz was everywhere doing commercials and appearances but Maddux didn't. He had almost reverse charisma.

I played a pickup game with some of the Braves once. Smoltz isn't as big as he looked on TV but Avery was bigger than he looked on TV lol. Afterwards Smoltz was wandering around the gym asking for $10 to pay the guest fee.

:facepalm

:lol

That is good shit

[warriorfan]

That would make you like 45. I don't believe you are that old. If so, you have to be the most immature middle aged man I have encountered. :oldlol:

I didn't see pre steroids Bonds but know how highly regarded he was. He peaked as a hitter when he was on steroids though, that isn't even a debate.

Only thing Bonds was better at during the 90's was fielding and stealing bases, but even as a defensive fielder during the 90's he didn't really blow you away, people always shitted on his weak arm.

Mays had the total package. Pre steroids Bonds as a hitter was basically Mays level, Bonds was probably slightly better, but Mays as a defensive fielder was superior, some have him as the best defensive center fielder ever.

You are a dumb asshole who doesn’t know much about baseball.

Go **** yourself

[ShawkFactory]

That’s wild about the 20k’s only 5 times.

Off top of my head if you said Clemens has two.

I remember Kerry Wood had a meteoric rise before injuries and he clocked one in.

I’m guessing the others were Pedro Martinez (who I low key think was modern day goat pitcher) and big unit

Pedro actually never did it. You called Unit correctly but the other was Max Scherzer in 2017 I believe.

[ShawkFactory]

Degrom is a pitcher strictly and had at least a game or 2 hitting a home run winning 1-0. While obviously not as dramatic as a playoff game but how much pressure was it being up 3-0 in a series playing an overmatched and shook team?

You guys thump your chests when he's hitting 3HRs in a 14-0 game. But running up your stats in a blowout win ain't impressing me. Hating aside it was a great game :lol

:lol

I know you cooled off just after this but baseball is fundamentally different than basketball. Short of having a position player or a shitty long reliever pitch (which doesn't happen in the playoffs, particularly an elimination game to go the WS), running up the score or coasting isn't a thing. All pitchers are always trying their best to make their pitches and get outs, and all hitters are always trying their best to get on base. Regardless of what the series score is.

[GOBB]

Look up greenies dude. Baseball season is a grind and amphetamines are performance enhancers big time.

What? I specifically cited cocaine. Read.

[warriorfan]

Pedro actually never did it. You called Unit correctly but the other was Max Scherzer in 2017 I believe.

Interesting. Sounds about right.

Pedro was insane in his hey day. Had like 4 or 5 pitches that were dirty as ****. Had control, movement, and heat.

Maddox was amazing though he had a huge arsenal too but could dissect pretty much any hitter with a steady diet of low 90’s 2 seem fastballs located perfectly pretty much every single time.

[warriorfan]

What? I specifically cited cocaine. Read.

Yeah dude they referred to greenies which was basically adderall in the 70’s and you went on some tangent about cocaine.

With all due respect you are a low key ****ing idiot

[1987_Lakers]

You are a dumb asshole who doesn’t know much about baseball.

Go **** yourself
How old are you?

[warriorfan]

How old are you?

Someone old enough to follow baseball in the 90’s unlike your lame ass watching nerdy YouTube videos and trying to speak like he knows shit

[1987_Lakers]

Someone old enough to follow baseball in the 90’s unlike your lame ass watching nerdy YouTube videos and trying to speak like he knows shit

You are almost 50 and still go around posting like a kid? Very sad.

[warriorfan]

You are almost 50 and still go around posting like a kid? Very sad.

You are a midget beaner who never played sports and regurgitates retarded shit you hear other people say on YouTube videos

Kill yourself :roll:

[1987_Lakers]

I can't believe someone who is almost 50 wanted to meet up in person and fight over something I said about Curry.

Either you are lying about your age or the most emotionally immature middle aged man I have encountered.

[GOBB]

Yeah dude they referred to greenies which was basically adderall in the 70’s and you went on some tangent about cocaine.

With all due respect you are a low key ****ing idiot

“ Also the guys who were on cocaine during the 80's.”

Do you have selective reading? Are you slow? I guess that explains why you just roam the board posting one liners. Not much of a substance fella huh? Cocaine is not helping baseball players in ways you think steroids or even amphetamines do. It was dumb to imply the 80’s had a cocaine era that helped players perform. The effects of cocaine are shortlived. Baseball is a long game. Just shut up. You want to argue about something I never mentioned. Signs of someone that lacks reading and comprehension. I can’t help you there. Your parents should’ve left you on a napkin. But alas you’re here…

[warriorfan]

I can't believe someone who is almost 50 wanted to meet up in person and fight over something I said about Curry.

Either you are lying about your age or the most emotionally immature middle aged man I have encountered.

You are a little ***** who tries to bullshit things you know nothing about. Shrug

[warriorfan]

“ Also the guys who were on cocaine during the 80's.”

Do you have selective reading? Are you slow? I guess that explains why you just roam the board posting one liners. Not much of a substance fella huh? Cocaine is not helping baseball players in ways you think steroids or even amphetamines do. It was dumb to imply the 80’s had a cocaine era that helped players perform. The effects of cocaine are shortlived. Baseball is a long game. Just shut up. You want to argue about something I never mentioned. Signs of someone that lacks reading and comprehension. I can’t help you there. Your parents should’ve left you on a napkin. But alas you’re here…

Well gj completely ignoring half his post where he talks about greenies and tangent it all to cocaine.

Intellectually dishonest debate tactic and you aren’t fooling anyone. I’m not here to debate cocaine but players were definitely doing the modern day equivalent to adderall back in the day and it definitely is a performance enhancer for baseball. Hammerin Hank Aaron was straight on one.

[1987_Lakers]

You are a little ***** who tries to bullshit things you know nothing about. Shrug

That's basically you. When you don't agree with someone's point, instead of refuting them by adding your own arguments and points, you personally attack them because you don't really have any points of your own. You just expose your low IQ when you do that.

It's very sad seeing someone who is almost 50 going around having temper tantrums and personally attacking posters over mundane things.

[warriorfan]

That's basically you. When you don't agree with someone's point, instead of refuting them by adding your own arguments and points, you personally attack them because you don't really have any points of your own. You just expose your low IQ when you do that.

It's very sad seeing someone who is almost 50 going around having temper tantrums and personally attacking posters over mundane things.

I’m sorry you admit to us you were an obese child and didn’t even play sports growing up and have an extremely shallow grasp of basics in sports.

Also that you have no intellectual consistency and try to slam MJ and Wilt for playing in previous era while disparaging their competition yet in the next sentence try to say Ruth is goat because he did so well vs even worse competition.

You are just a clown. Go back to making threads about YouTube videos you watched about how the Moon is a spaceship rather than pretending you know a shred about sports.

[1987_Lakers]

I’m sorry you admit to us you were an obese child and didn’t even play sports growing up and have an extremely shallow grasp of basics in sports.

Also that you have no intellectual consistency and try to slam MJ and Wilt for playing in previous era while disparaging their competition yet in the next sentence try to say Ruth is goat because he did so well vs even worse competition.

You are just a clown. Go back to making threads about YouTube videos you watched about how the Moon is a spaceship rather than pretending you know a shred about sports.

Didn't you admit that you smoke crack?

You are one of the biggest clowns on this forum, it has been this way for over a decade. You constantly get clowned on and nobody likes you.

Go away.

[warriorfan]

Didn't you admit that you smoke crack?

You are one of the biggest clowns on this forum, it has been this way for over a decade. You constantly get clowned on and nobody likes you.

Go away.

No I didn’t that is something you nerds made up :lol

You got nothing and know nothing. You are nothing. Keep parroting low iq shit you get from vegging out on YouTube videos.

Moon is a spaceship! :roll:

[1987_Lakers]

No I didn’t that is something you nerds made up :lol

lmaoooo

You literally posted a pic of some crack rock you just bought.

Around the time you posted your dirty apartment with empty beer cans and ashtrays everywhere

[GOBB]

Well gj completely ignoring half his post where he talks about greenies and tangent it all to cocaine.

Intellectually dishonest debate tactic and you aren’t fooling anyone. I’m not here to debate cocaine but players were definitely doing the modern day equivalent to adderall back in the day and it definitely is a performance enhancer for baseball. Hammerin Hank Aaron was straight on one.

You’re not here to debate cocaine. So why did you reply?

“In the 70’s Kareem was best player in the nba. In the 80’s it was magic and bird. In the 90’s it was Shaq”.

Me “no in the 90’s it was MJ. Nice try”

Warriormeathead “Kareem was considered the best in the 70’s plus it was wildly recognized magic and bird was in the 80’s. I’m not here to debate what he said about the 90’s.”


You’re not bright at all here. Go find a way to get banned and feel accomplished in life

[warriorfan]

You’re not here to debate cocaine. So why did you reply?

“In the 70’s Kareem was best player in the nba. In the 80’s it was magic and bird. In the 90’s it was Shaq”.

Me “no in the 90’s it was MJ. Nice try”

Warriormeathead “Kareem was considered the best in the 70’s plus it was wildly recognized magic and bird was in the 80’s. I’m not here to debate what he said about the 90’s.”


You’re not bright at all here. Go find a way to get banned and feel accomplished in life

You are a low iq idiot and everyone knows. **** off you piece of trash.

[warriorfan]

lmaoooo

You literally posted a pic of some crack rock you just bought.

Around the time you posted your dirty apartment with empty beer cans and ashtrays everywhere

You’ve never seen crack lol.

Talking about shit you know nothing about just like football, baseball, basketball, the moon.

You legit know nothing about nothing and watch YouTube videos from other idiots and then try to tell people what’s up. It’s insanely cringe lol

[1987_Lakers]

You’ve never seen crack lol.

Talking about shit you know nothing about just like football, baseball, basketball, the moon.

You legit no nothing about nothing and watch YouTube videos from other idiots and the. Try to tell people what’s up. It’s insanely cringe lol


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uJ1hKtYOx_c

[warriorfan]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uJ1hKtYOx_c

Speak of the devil, a YouTube video lmao

I ain’t clicking that shit I actually know shit I talk about and formulate my own opinions. I don’t watch that shit.

Keep wasting your life on your computer consuming low quality YouTube garbage from unqualified sources then gaslighting yourself into being some sort of expert.

Tell me how that works out for you :lol

[ShawkFactory]

Interesting. Sounds about right.

Pedro was insane in his hey day. Had like 4 or 5 pitches that were dirty as ****. Had control, movement, and heat.

Maddox was amazing though he had a huge arsenal too but could dissect pretty much any hitter with a steady diet of low 90’s 2 seem fastballs located perfectly pretty much every single time.

Pedro had no weakness. Always on point with everything.

On top of the insane control, Maddux was like a computer with his knowledge of hitters. I think it was Tony Gwynn who got a hit off of him one time and he said in an interview that he knew he would never see that pitch in that spot again.

[warriorfan]

Pedro had no weakness. Always on point with everything.

On top of the insane control, Maddux was like a computer with his knowledge of hitters. I think it was Tony Gwynn who got a hit off of him one time and he said in an interview that he knew he would never see that pitch in that spot again.

That’s wild. But yes many of the best were like that. Ted Williams was another one who could recall virtually every at bat he had in his entire life.

Maddux and Gwynn battles though. That stuff is pretty legendary.

[warriorfan]

I’ve heard some good stories about Pedro’s older brother getting some hype with the dodgers and he would tell them just wait till my little brother gets here :lol

[1987_Lakers]

I actually know shit I talk about and formulate my own opinions.

:lol

[warriorfan]

:lol

I would tell you to try it sometime but you legit have too low of an iq to do it.

Keep reflecting back about how apparently nba players in the 60’s-90’s were so bad that they can’t be compared to modern players yet in the next breath rant about how Ruth is the goat because he beat up on a segregated 1920’s league…. Lmfao


Clown

[1987_Lakers]

I would tell you to try it sometime but you legit have too low of an iq to do it.

Keep reflecting back about how apparently nba players in the 60’s-90’s were so bad that they can’t be compared to modern players yet in the next breath rant about how Ruth is the goat because he beat up on a segregated 1920’s league…. Lmfao


Clown

Since you are a little slow, here is one of my earlier posts in this thread regarding Ruth.


Relative to their era Babe Ruth will never be topped. He was hitting more home runs than some teams and also had a season where he was the best pitcher in the American League.

Not even MJ was that dominant. Ruth was by far the best athlete of the 20th century.

How dumb do you feel?

There is also a thread in the NBA forum right now of me defending Russell and Wilt over Hakeem, yet you choose to ignore that.

[warriorfan]

Since you are a little slow, here is one of my earlier posts in this thread regarding Ruth.



How dumb do you feel?

“ Not even MJ was that dominant. Ruth was by far the best athlete of the 20th century.”

You said this because he beat up on an archaic league, while you detract from past NBA players for doing the same thing with your weird LeBron stanning

You make up opinions randomly and work backwards to try to justify it rather than having a consistent thought process that works forward to discern who were the best players.

You probably won’t understand this even when I’m spelling it out in rudimentary terms because you are legit dumb as shit but there it is.

You legit think the moon is a spaceship…. :roll:

[1987_Lakers]

“ Not even MJ was that dominant. Ruth was by far the best athlete of the 20th century.”

You said this because he beat up on an archaic league, while you detract from past NBA players for doing the same thing with your weird LeBron stanning

You make up opinions randomly and work backwards to try to justify it rather than having a consistent thought process that works forward to discern who were the best players.

You probably won’t understand this even when I’m spelling it out in rudimentary terms because you are legit dumb as shit but there it is.
I already explained to you that I mostly troll older players when those same posters who praise them shit and troll LeBron's play.

The fact that you can't tell the difference when someone is trolling and being serious just shows how slow you are.

I recently made fun of a list for having Hakeem ahead of Wilt & Russell, yet you choose to ignore that. Wonder why.

[warriorfan]

I already explained to you that I mostly troll older players when those same posters who praise them shit and troll LeBron's play.

The fact that you can't tell the difference when someone is trolling and being serious just shows how slow you are.

I recently made fun of a list for having Hakeem ahead of Wilt & Russell, yet you choose to ignore that. Wonder why.

You are dumb as **** and think the moon is a spaceship.

[1987_Lakers]

You are dumb as **** and think the moon is a spaceship.

You are a crackhead who is going through with withdraws this morning.

[warriorfan]

You are a crackhead who is going through with withdraws this morning.

You are a midget beaner who thinks the moon is a spaceship and gonna waste his entire day watching retarded YouTube videos :lol

Nice life

[warriorfan]

You are a crackhead who is going through with withdraws this morning.

You are a midget beaner who thinks the moon is a spaceship and gonna waste his entire day watching retarded YouTube videos :lol

Nice life

[1987_Lakers]

You’re not here to debate cocaine. So why did you reply?

“In the 70’s Kareem was best player in the nba. In the 80’s it was magic and bird. In the 90’s it was Shaq”.

Me “no in the 90’s it was MJ. Nice try”

Warriormeathead “Kareem was considered the best in the 70’s plus it was wildly recognized magic and bird was in the 80’s. I’m not here to debate what he said about the 90’s.”


You’re not bright at all here. Go find a way to get banned and feel accomplished in life

Ouch. Destroyed.

[warriorfan]

Ouch. Destroyed.

Go cuddle up to Gobb because your midget low iq ass is getting mopped up :lol

That shit is super weak and cringe. You guys should exchange contact info, you two dudes both operate at the same wavelength. You guys will get along well.

[1987_Lakers]

I recently made fun of a list for having Hakeem ahead of Wilt & Russell, yet you choose to ignore that. Wonder why.

???

Keep ignoring it.

Your whole point about me was just destroyed and now you have nothing to say.

lmao.

[ShawkFactory]

Actually had some decent baseball talk for a minute. Fun while that lasted :lol

[AlternativeAcc.]

The main problem I have with Ruth is that we don't actually know if he was the best baseball player during his time, because there were probably a couple of black guys who could've put up similar numbers had they had the opportunity. Even a white guy on his own team, Gerhig, was putting up comparable numbers during his prime.

I mean, the two other main GOAT candidates are black in Bonds and Mays... and then you have Hank Aaron so arguably 3 black players in the top 5 alone. It's not that I don't think Ruth would've had similar numbers with a fully integrated league, it's that there's a good chance there was a black guy who would've made him look a lot less God-like. To me, this is a bigger red flag than Bonds taking steroids


And if you use steroids against Bonds, how can you not give him credit for dominating the 90s when he was presumably clean while many of his peers were already juicing?

And how can you explain Bonds far and away dominating an incredibly deep talent pool with a ton of guys juicing to the point he had a 300 point OPS advantage over the next best guy from 2001-2004?

We're cool with Ruth dominating against only whites, but not cool with Bonds dominating everybody? The logic doesn't make sense.

[warriorfan]

Actually had some decent baseball talk for a minute. Fun while that lasted :lol

:lol

This is why we can’t have nice things

[warriorfan]

The main problem I have with Ruth is that we don't actually know if he was the best baseball player during his time, because there were probably a couple of black guys who could've put up similar numbers had they had the opportunity. Even a white guy on his own team, Gerhig, was putting up comparable numbers during his prime.

I mean, the two other main GOAT candidates are black in Bonds and Mays... and then you have Hank Aaron so arguably 3 black players in the top 5 alone. It's not that I don't think Ruth would've had similar numbers with a fully integrated league, it's that there's a good chance there was a black guy who would've made him look a lot less God-like. To me, this is a bigger red flag than Bonds taking steroids


And if you use steroids against Bonds, how can you not give him credit for dominating the 90s when he was presumably clean while many of his peers were already juicing?

And how can you explain Bonds far and away dominating an incredibly deep talent pool with a ton of guys juicing to the point he had a 300 point OPS advantage over the next best guy from 2001-2004?

We're cool with Ruth dominating against only whites, but not cool with Bonds dominating everybody? The logic doesn't make sense.

It’s because lakers87 and logic don’t go hand in hand. I’ve pointed this out countless times. He legit makes shit up. What you said tracks though.

[1987_Lakers]

Ruth did not cheat, unlike Bonds. Ruth was also a world class pitcher at one point. Imagine if Bonds was one of the best pitchers in the league at one point during the mid-late 80's and won a Cy Young award before he took over the game with his bat in the 90's. That was basically Babe Ruth. He was a mystical player that still gets talked about 100 years later.

1. Ruth
2. Mays

Nuff said.


It’s because lakers87 and logic don’t go hand in hand. I’ve pointed this out countless times. He legit makes shit up. What you said tracks though.

So you agree with that post, but shit on LeBron for playing in a deeper talent pool league than MJ and played when the NBA expanded internationally while 90's NBA was mostly American.

You have no logic.

[1987_Lakers]

:lol

This is why we can’t have nice things

It's because of you. You come in threads and start throwing personal insults instead of debating.

Have some self awareness dipshit.

[AlternativeAcc.]

Ruth did not cheat, unlike Bonds. Ruth was also a world class pitcher at one point. Imagine if Bonds was one of the best pitchers in the league at one point during the mid-late 80's and won a Cy Young award before he took over the game with his bat in the 90's. That was basically Babe Ruth. He was a mystical player that still gets talked about 100 years later.

1. Ruth
2. Mays

Nuff said.

Imagine if Ruth played in a fully integrated league and dominated it with 5 surefire MVP seasons while many of his peers were juicing, and then went on to juice in his late 30s and put together the greatest run in sports history. That'd be crazy right?

Bonds in the 90s was basically him playing with a 50 pound weight vest, and him juicing just allowed him to take the weight vest off and even the playing field.

It's the only explanation for a guy dominating the way he did in his lage 30s. It means he was playing the game on hard mode before.


Ruth playing with and against only whites is a way bigger asterisk than what Bonds did. We know Bonds was the best clean and unclean vs. a deep, fully integrated talent pool.

There are way too many all-time great non-whites for it not to be a massive deal that Ruth played in a white only league. There's a reason nobody gives a **** about George Mikan.



And Ruth tried to cheat by injecting himself with sheep testicle extract but it backfired by making him incredibly I'll lol. He would've 100% juiced had given the opportunity.

[warriorfan]

It's because of you. You come in threads and start throwing personal insults instead of debating.

Have some self awareness dipshit.

I’m not gonna waste my time debating with a low iq monkey who never saw pre steroids bonds and try to talk about him. BTW you think the Moon is a spaceship.

You are a clueless dipshit. It is what it is.

[warriorfan]

Imagine if Ruth played in a fully integrated league and dominated it with 5 surefire MVP seasons while many of his peers were juicing, and then went on to juice in his late 30s and put together the greatest run in sports history. That'd be crazy right?

Bonds in the 90s was basically him playing with a 50 pound weight vest, and him juicing just allowed him to take the weight vest off and even the playing field.

It's the only explanation for a guy dominating the way he did in his lage 30s. It means he was playing the game on hard mode before.


Ruth playing with and against only whites is a way bigger asterisk than what Bonds did. We know Bonds was the best clean and unclean vs. a deep, fully integrated talent pool.

There are way too many all-time great non-whites for it not to be a massive deal that Ruth played in a white only league. There's a reason nobody gives a **** about George Mikan.



And Ruth tried to cheat by injecting himself with sheep testicle extract but it backfired by making him incredibly I'll lol. He would've 100% juiced had given the opportunity.

Ether. Thank you for having more patience than me. I can’t even deal with these dudes like Lakers87

[AlternativeAcc.]

Also bringing up Ruth's pitching is kinda meaningless because he played the majority of his career as a regular position player, in which he was an average fielder and horrible base runner.

Bonds played the majority of his career as one of the best fielding left fielders of all time and an excellent base runner... again, in a fully integrated league.

[1987_Lakers]

Imagine if Ruth played in a fully integrated league and dominated it with 5 surefire MVP seasons while many of his peers were juicing, and then went on to juice in his late 30s and put together the greatest run in sports history. That'd be crazy right?

Bonds in the 90s was basically him playing with a 50 pound weight vest, and him juicing just allowed him to take the weight vest off and even the playing field.

It's the only explanation for a guy dominating the way he did in his lage 30s. It means he was playing the game on hard mode before.


Ruth playing with and against only whites is a way bigger asterisk than what Bonds did. We know Bonds was the best clean and unclean vs. a deep, fully integrated talent pool.

There are way too many all-time great non-whites for it not to be a massive deal that Ruth played in a white only league. There's a reason nobody gives a **** about George Mikan.



And Ruth tried to cheat by injecting himself with sheep testicle extract but it backfired by making him incredibly I'll lol. He would've 100% juiced had given the opportunity.

If you put 1921 Ruth with no modern training into the 90's I have no doubt Bonds would be better. The best pitcher during Ruth's era and who many consider the GOAT pitcher could only throw around 94 mph. Ohtani can throw 100+.

We could only compare these guys vs what they did vs their competition and there was nobody who dominated his competition more than Ruth did, he was hitting more home runs than some teams, that would be equal to someone hitting over 100 home runs today and before that he was a top 5 pitcher in the league.

It's why you don't see someone like Hakeem being ranked ahead of guys like Russell & Wilt often. Hakeem played much better competition and was 100x more skilled than them, but Wilt & Russell were more transcendent during their era.

[1987_Lakers]

I’m not gonna waste my time debating

You are a bitch.

[warriorfan]

Also bringing up Ruth's pitching is kinda meaningless because he played the majority of his career as a regular position player, in which he was an average fielder and horrible base runner.

Bonds played the majority of his career as one of the best fielding left fielders of all time and an excellent base runner... again, in a fully integrated league.

Lakers also was trying to talk shit on Bond’s arm which has been a hater talking point for 30+ years and it’s somewhat based in truth.He didn’t have a Raul Mondesi or Vlad Guerro right field cannon but at the same time there was no one else in baseball who had a quicker release from glove to throw plus he had amazing accuracy. The media had it against bonds big time he didn’t luck his way into all those gold gloves. He was the prototype 5 tool player.

[warriorfan]

You are a bitch.

You are a midget beaner who thinks the moon is a spaceship and declined when I said I would meet you anywhere in the greater Bay Area and slap the taste out of your mouth

[1987_Lakers]

Bonds’ weak arm failing to throw out one of the slowest runners in the league.


https://youtu.be/FgjIVvEQo_o

[warriorfan]

Bonds’ weak arm failing to throw out one of the slowest runners in the league.


https://youtu.be/FgjIVvEQo_o

Nice sample size

More YouTube nonsense from a guy who wasn’t there at the time lmao

You never played or never even watched. You are a baseball/basketball reference loser who has to watch YouTube’s from nerds like Ben Taylor to steal opinions off of

You ****ing suck

[AlternativeAcc.]

If you put 1921 Ruth with no modern training into the 90's I have no doubt Bonds would be better. The best pitcher during Ruth's era and who many consider the GOAT pitcher could only throw around 94 mph. Ohtani can throw 100+.

We could only compare these guys vs what they did vs their competition and there was nobody who dominated his competition more than Ruth did, he was hitting more home runs than some teams, that would be equal to someone hitting over 100 home runs today and before that he was a top 5 pitcher in the league.

It's why you don't see someone like Hakeem being ranked ahead of guys like Russell & Wilt often. Hakeem played much better competition and was 100x more skilled than them, but Wilt & Russell were more transcendent during their era.

That's not even my point though. Yes, obviously Bonds would be better than 1921 Ruth. 1921 Ruth couldn't even make the league. He was swinging a ****ing 54oz bat. Were not even comparing apples to apples at that point.

The point is that Bonds dominating the modern era is far more impressive than Ruth dominating an early MLB with white-only players.

You don't find it a coincidence that like 10 of the 12 highest WAR seasons came before 1930? It's almost like the average replacement player in Ruth's era is drastically worse than when Bonds played.


Also im not really understanding the Hakeem analogy. When was he considered the best of his era and when did he dominate statistically the way Bonds did from 01-04? Bonds literally set the record for OPS in 2004 at 1.422

Thats like if Hakeem averaged 50/30 in 1994. I don't recall Hakeem ever putting up those types of numbers so not sure why he is your example here

[AlternativeAcc.]

Bonds’ weak arm failing to throw out one of the slowest runners in the league.


https://youtu.be/FgjIVvEQo_o

Can't imagine the types of bloopers and errors Ruth made during his time, especially on the base paths. But all the metrics point towards Bonds being one of the best defensive out fielders of all time.

[Wally450]

Its definitely up there among the very best.

In all of sports history is a tough call.

[1987_Lakers]

The point is that Bonds dominating the modern era is far more impressive than Ruth dominating an early MLB with white-only players.

This is where I disagree, you could make that case with juiced up Bonds, but 90’s Bonds doesn’t hold up to what Ruth was doing vs his competition.

And that’s all we could pretty much go by, what they did vs their opponents.

When it’s all set and done Ruth will be remembered more 50 years from now. Steroids basically gave Bonds a black eye to his legacy. Yes, you can debate Ruth played only white players but he only played what was in front of him to no fault of his own.

[AlternativeAcc.]

Lakers also was trying to talk shit on Bond’s arm which has been a hater talking point for 30+ years and it’s somewhat based in truth.He didn’t have a Raul Mondesi or Vlad Guerro right field cannon but at the same time there was no one else in baseball who had a quicker release from glove to throw plus he had amazing accuracy. The media had it against bonds big time he didn’t luck his way into all those gold gloves. He was the prototype 5 tool player.

He was an incredible disciplined defender with elite positioning. He wasn't flashy with a bunch of diving catches because his positioning allowed him to make plays without the need for them.

[1987_Lakers]

Nice sample size

More YouTube nonsense from a guy who wasn’t there at the time lmao

You never played or never even watched. You are a baseball/basketball reference loser who has to watch YouTube’s from nerds like Ben Taylor to steal opinions off of

You ****ing suck

Happened in one of the biggest games of his career. Game 7 of the NLCS. I would say it’s something you could use

[AlternativeAcc.]

This is where I disagree, you could make that case with juiced up Bonds, but 90’s Bonds doesn’t hold up to what Ruth was doing vs his competition.

And that’s all we could pretty much go by, what they did vs their opponents.

When it’s all set and done Ruth will be remembered more 50 years from now. Steroids basically gave Bonds a black eye to his legacy. Yes, you can debate Ruth played only white players but he only played what was in front of him to no fault of his own.

Ruth's best 3-yeae stretch in OPS was from 1926-1928, at around 1.220 where he led the next best guy, his own teammate by 100 points.

Bonds from 01-04 averaged 1.370 and had a 300 point lead over the next best guy.


Bonds literally dominated the modern era more than Ruth did a white-only league. Take away the steroids and you have elite base running and defense that Ruth never touches in any era.

We know Bonds wasn't the only guy juicing, so him dominating in his late 30s in the modern era against modern pitching is simply more impressive than Ruth dominating a primitive white-only MLB.

[AlternativeAcc.]

Happened in one of the biggest games of his career. Game 7 of the NLCS. I would say it’s something you could use

How do you feel that compares to Babe Ruth getting caught stealing in the 9th inning of game 7 of a world series with 2 outs in a 1 run game? :lol


Unfortunately Bonds only made one world series. I wonder how his numbers look?

[ShawkFactory]

Lakers also was trying to talk shit on Bond’s arm which has been a hater talking point for 30+ years and it’s somewhat based in truth.He didn’t have a Raul Mondesi or Vlad Guerro right field cannon but at the same time there was no one else in baseball who had a quicker release from glove to throw plus he had amazing accuracy. The media had it against bonds big time he didn’t luck his way into all those gold gloves. He was the prototype 5 tool player.

Ehh. Yea he was an excellent fielder but left field is still left field. If he had truly high-level outfield tools he would have been playing right or center.

I never thought about it like this before but best fielding LF of all time is kind of a strange thing, because most great outfielders who show promise at that position always transition to center or right. Interesting that he never did.

[AlternativeAcc.]

These era-adjusted statistics are obtained from Full House Modeling. This model computes era-adjusted statistics through a principled balancing of how well a player performed "vs their peers" and the size of the MLB talent pool. Under this model, great all-time statistics requires that an MLB player is both better than their peers and played during a time in which the talent pool is large. In this way, the model constructs an even playing field that extends across eras.

https://eckeraadjustment.web.illinois.edu/#rankings



A list like this actually makes sense because players are evenly distributed across different eras. If you use WAR alone, you have a disproportionate amount of pre-integration players because the talent pool was absolutely ****ing garbage.

[warriorfan]

Ehh. Yea he was an excellent fielder but left field is still left field. If he had truly high-level outfield tools he would have been playing right or center.

I never thought about it like this before but best fielding LF of all time is kind of a strange thing, because most great outfielders who show promise at that position always transition to center or right. Interesting that he never did.

LF is where you put your lefty outfield or weakest outfield. Center needs big range and right field you put the guy with the big arm. Bonds could have played center but it was a low key waste. Let him be a best in the league left and maximize his bat/baserunning

[ShawkFactory]

LF is where you put your lefty outfield or weakest outfield. Center needs big range and right field you put the guy with the big arm. Bonds could have played center but it was a low key waste. Let him be a best in the league left and maximize his bat/baserunning

Yea that's why it's weird. He didn't have the arm for right, flat out. I also believe he could have played center at a relatively high level but maybe its like you said. Have him be a middle-of-the-pack CF and risk possible performance loss offensively or let him do a great job in left. Perhaps the center to left value gap was made up for offensively in this case.

It makes sense but you just almost never see it.

[1987_Lakers]

Ruth's best 3-yeae stretch in OPS was from 1926-1928, at around 1.220 where he led the next best guy, his own teammate by 100 points.

Bonds from 01-04 averaged 1.370 and had a 300 point lead over the next best guy.


Bonds literally dominated the modern era more than Ruth did a white-only league. Take away the steroids and you have elite base running and defense that Ruth never touches in any era.

We know Bonds wasn't the only guy juicing, so him dominating in his late 30s in the modern era against modern pitching is simply more impressive than Ruth dominating a primitive white-only MLB.

OPS+ is better than OPS when comparing players from different eras.

I don't put much value on Bonds hitting stats during the 01-04 years because of steroids, but even if I did, Ruth still had a whopping 11 seasons where he had an OPS+ of over 200 which is basically OPS that takes into account league average at the time. Bonds had 6 seasons of OPS+ of over 200, 4 of those seasons came when he was on steroids. 90's Bonds doesn't really compare to 1920's Ruth as a hitter, of course relative to their time.

No player in history has a higher career slugging%, OPS, OPS+, rOBA, Rbat+ than Ruth. He is the absolute gold standard as a hitter.


How do you feel that compares to Babe Ruth getting caught stealing in the 9th inning of game 7 of a world series with 2 outs in a 1 run game? :lol

Unfortunately Bonds only made one world series. I wonder how his numbers look?

Like you said it was 2 outs, 9th inning with the Yankees down by 1 with Ruth stuck on 1st. Would make sense to try to steal 2nd with 2 outs, that way one hit brings you home. It was worth the risk.

Ruth as a pitcher alone had more iconic postseason moments than Bonds. Pitched 14 innings in a world series game while only surrendering 1 run.

[1987_Lakers]

Bonds’ weak arm failing to throw out one of the slowest runners in the league.


https://youtu.be/FgjIVvEQo_o

In the decisive Game 7 of the 1992 NLCS, Andy Van Slyke, playing center field, yelled at Barry Bonds to "Move in!" to play closer to the infield. Bonds, playing left field, allegedly responded by giving Van Slyke the middle finger instead of moving, and this refusal to change position was cited by Van Slyke as a key reason why the game-winning run scored.

:roll:

[AlternativeAcc.]

OPS+ is better than OPS when comparing players from different eras.

I don't put much value on Bonds hitting stats during the 01-04 years because of steroids, but even if I did, Ruth still had a whopping 11 seasons where he had an OPS+ of over 200 which is basically OPS that takes into account league average at the time.

I'm aware of adjusted OPS, and yes, Bonds in the early 2000s had the highest marks in baseball history.


It is a stat still heavy skewed towards pre-integration players because the league average player was significantly worse than in Bonds' time.

I dont think you're grasping the point... you can't assign those stats to Ruth and act like they're actually as impressive as someone doing that in modern baseball. You don't penalize Ruth for playing in a significantly shallower, and artificially reduced talent pool, but you act like what Bonds did doesn't count because he took steroids which many of his contemporaries did themselves. Why?

[1987_Lakers]

I'm aware of adjusted OPS, and yes, Bonds in the early 2000s had the highest marks in baseball history.


It is a stat still heavy skewed towards pre-integration players because the league average player was significantly worse than in Bonds' time.

I dont think you're grasping the point... you can't assign those stats to Ruth and act like they're actually as impressive as someone doing that in modern baseball. You don't penalize Ruth for playing in a significantly shallower, and artificially reduced talent pool, but you act like what Bonds did doesn't count because he took steroids which many of his contemporaries did themselves. Why?

Simple. He cheated the game. Just because other people were doing it doesn't justify it, pitchers who use steroids don't see the benefits hitters do when they take it. I personally think he should be in the hall, it's weird how David Ortiz got busted in 2003, but still made it. In the end, Bonds knew the possible consequences of taking steroids and his legacy got tarnished because of it.

[Off the Court]

I'm aware of adjusted OPS, and yes, Bonds in the early 2000s had the highest marks in baseball history.


It is a stat still heavy skewed towards pre-integration players because the league average player was significantly worse than in Bonds' time.

I dont think you're grasping the point... you can't assign those stats to Ruth and act like they're actually as impressive as someone doing that in modern baseball. You don't penalize Ruth for playing in a significantly shallower, and artificially reduced talent pool, but you act like what Bonds did doesn't count because he took steroids which many of his contemporaries did themselves. Why?

Yep it's kind of like Wilt putting up 100 pionts on bunch of short white dudes.

[AlternativeAcc.]

Simple. He cheated the game. Just because other people were doing it doesn't justify it, pitchers who use steroids don't see the benefits hitters do when they take it. I personally think he should be in the hall, it's weird how David Ortiz got busted in 2003, but still made it. In the end, Bonds knew the possible consequences of taking steroids and his legacy got tarnished because of it.

But you mention that Bonds pre-steroids doesn't measure up to Ruth... which obviously if you use stats that are skewed to Ruth and other pre-integration players, that would seem to be the case.

In reality, what Bonds did pre-steroids is still more impressive than what Ruth did,. He become the only player in history with 400hr and 400sb and intentional walk record holder, all while many of his peers including pitchers were juicing. You can't have your cake and eat it too. If you say what he did in the early 2000s doesn't count, then you also have to heavily discredit Ruth for playing in a white only league, and strongly credit Bonds for dominating modern baseball at a huge disadvantage to many of his peers. His numbers would be even better had everyone been clean.


Either way you wanna slice it, Bonds > Ruth

[1987_Lakers]

For argument sake, lets take away Ruth because he only played with whites and 00's Bonds because he used roids.

90's Bonds as hitter wasn't even better than prime Mantle or Ted Williams. Mantle you could debate, but Ted Williams in particular blows 90's Bonds away in OPS+, even had a season at age 38 where he hit 38 HRs and had an OPS+ of 233. Both also had higher WAR during their primes than 90's Bonds did.

Yet neither Mantle or Williams are rarely ranked ahead of Ruth on any all-time list you see.

That's how far ahead Ruth was ahead of his competition, even if you use the race thing against him.

[warriorfan]

For argument sake, lets take away Ruth because he only played with whites and 00's Bonds because he used roids.

90's Bonds as hitter wasn't even better than prime Mantle or Ted Williams. Mantle you could debate, but Ted Williams in particular blows 90's Bonds away in OPS+, even had a season at age 38 where he hit 38 HRs and had an OPS+ of 233. Both also had higher WAR during their primes than 90's Bonds did.

Yet neither Mantle or Williams are rarely ranked ahead of Ruth on any all-time list you see.

That's how far ahead Ruth was ahead of his competition, even if you use the race thing against him.

For arguments sake let’s take Wilts prime and stack it against LeBron’s

oh wait you won’t do that and bitch and moan about competition. :lol :lol

When it comes to baseball you are super down to go back to the 1950’s, 40’s, hell the early 20’s :roll:

You are cooked

[1987_Lakers]

For arguments sake let’s take Wilts prime and stack it against LeBron’s

oh wait you won’t do that and bitch and moan about competition. :lol :lol

When it comes to baseball you are super down to go back to the 1950’s, 40’s, hell the early 20’s :roll:

You are cooked

Wilt's prime numbers are inflated due to the pace of the league at the time.

What's cool about baseball is you can compare numbers from different eras much easier compared to the NBA.

[warriorfan]

Simple. He cheated the game. Just because other people were doing it doesn't justify it, pitchers who use steroids don't see the benefits hitters do when they take it. I personally think he should be in the hall, it's weird how David Ortiz got busted in 2003, but still made it. In the end, Bonds knew the possible consequences of taking steroids and his legacy got tarnished because of it.

Pitchers don’t get benifits from doing steroids? Lmfao have you ever pitched? Have you ever done steroids? I’ve done both and it definitely helps. Eric Gagne was a nobody till he got on gear and was throwing 103 and won the Cy Young.

Stop talking out of your ass bro you don’t know shit about anything.

[1987_Lakers]

Pitchers don’t get benifits from doing steroids? Lmfao have you ever pitched? Have you ever done steroids? I’ve done both and it definitely helps. Eric Gagne was a nobody till he got on gear and was throwing 103 and won the Cy Young.

Stop talking out of your ass bro you don’t know shit about anything.

Why am I not surprised.

And no, it benefits hitters more.

[warriorfan]

Why am I not surprised.

And no, it benefits hitters more.

So Barry bonds was best in league before and after steroids

Eric Gagne was where before steroids? And when he did it he was cy young? Then after where was he?

Go watch some more YouTube videos about moon being a spaceship. You are a dipshit

[1987_Lakers]

So Barry bonds was best in league before and after steroids

Eric Gagne was where before steroids? And when he did it he was cy young? Then after where was he?

Go watch some more YouTube videos about moon being a spaceship. You are a dipshit

I don't think anyone is debating your statement about Bonds, but here are some league numbers from the peak steroid era.

1998-2004. Close to 5 runs per game, about 76 OPS. Was around 70 during the late 80s and early 90s.

Home runs? Forget about it. 1998-2004 saw more home runs league wide compared to any era prior.

Batting numbers went down considerably across the board once the league cracked down on steroids.

The '99 and '00 season in particular was when batting numbers were insane.

[AlternativeAcc.]

For argument sake, lets take away Ruth because he only played with whites and 00's Bonds because he used roids.

90's Bonds as hitter wasn't even better than prime Mantle or Ted Williams. Mantle you could debate, but Ted Williams in particular blows 90's Bonds away in OPS+, even had a season at age 38 where he hit 38 HRs and had an OPS+ of 233. Both also had higher WAR during their primes than 90's Bonds did.

Yet neither Mantle or Williams are rarely ranked ahead of Ruth on any all-time list you see.

That's how far ahead Ruth was ahead of his competition, even if you use the race thing against him.

What?

Williams doesn't get talked about as GOAT because he missed several seasons in his prime and wasn't an all-around great player. He was an all-time great hitter.

Mantles injuries never allowed him to produce the counting stats needed to be in the discussion.

I think you're getting confused again and trying to use WAR across eras when that's a horrible idea and doesn't work

Here's an era adjusted WAR list to help you out.

https://eckeraadjustment.web.illinois.edu/#rankings

[1987_Lakers]

What?

Williams doesn't get talked about as GOAT because he missed several seasons in his prime and wasn't an all-around great player. He was an all-time great hitter.

Mantles injuries never allowed him to produce the counting stats needed to be in the discussion.

I think you're getting confused again and trying to use WAR across eras when that's a horrible idea and doesn't work

Here's an era adjusted WAR list to help you out.

https://eckeraadjustment.web.illinois.edu/#rankings

Bro, that top 100 list doesn't even have Ted Williams. :oldlol:

And I have seen a shit ton of lists putting Ted Williams top 5 ever. He missed some seasons because of war, but still played over 17 years in the league.

[AlternativeAcc.]

Bro, that top 100 list doesn't even have Ted Williams. :oldlol:

And I have seen a shit ton of lists putting Ted Williams top 5 ever. He missed some seasons because of war, but still played over 17 years in the league.

He played in a much more shallow talent pool than modern players and was a bad defender and bad baserunner.. plus missed like 5 prime seasons. He's one of the GOAT hitter for sure, but il.not surprised he gets penalized on a list that tries to adjust for era

[1987_Lakers]

He played in a much more shallow talent pool than modern players and was a bad defender and bad baserunner.. plus missed like 5 prime seasons. He's one of the GOAT hitter for sure, but il.not surprised he gets penalized on a list that tries to adjust for era

Yes, he missed a good chunk of his prime because of war, but there has to be something wrong with that list for him to not even be top 100.

We are talking about arguably the greatest hitter ever, a dude who batted almost .390 at age 38.

[AlternativeAcc.]

Yes, he missed a good chunk of his prime because of war, but there has to be something wrong with that list for him to not even be top 100.

We are talking about arguably the greatest hitter ever, a dude who batted almost .390 at age 38.

https://eckeraadjustment.web.illinois.edu/era_adjusted_V2.1.html

He's top 15 on the lists here so may have just been an error not including him.

[1987_Lakers]

https://eckeraadjustment.web.illinois.edu/era_adjusted_V2.1.html

He's top 15 on the lists here so may have just been an error not including him.

I knew it had to be an error.

[warriorfan]

Lakers never picked up a baseball in his life and thinks all the guys from the 1920s are the real deal but basketball players from the 60’s ain’t it lol


Brother couldn’t find his own ass with two hands and a flashlight. Keep watching your nerdy YouTube’s and acting like you know two shits lol

[1987_Lakers]

warriorfan using steroids actually makes a lot of sense. No wonder why he is always raging mad around here. Who the hell wakes up every morning and the first thing they do is go on ISH to insult people? You must be miserable.

[warriorfan]

warriorfan using steroids actually makes a lot of sense. No wonder why he is always raging mad around here. Who the hell wakes up every morning and the first thing they do is go on ISH to insult people? You must be miserable.

No I’m super athletic and a physical specimen and I went on gear to see what my potential was and it’s wild. Keep being fat midge beaner though :lol

[1987_Lakers]

No I’m super athletic and a physical specimen and I went on gear to see what my potential was and it’s wild. Keep being fat midge beaner though :lol

Sure you are. Keep roid raging. :lol

[warriorfan]

Sure you are. Keep roid raging. :lol

Never played ball of any type never cycled

Damn bro you lame as ****

[1987_Lakers]

Never played ball of any type never cycled

Damn bro you lame as ****

We know you have. I remember the thread you posted about the bicycle you just bought, aka your car.

[warriorfan]

We know you have. I remember the thread you posted about the bicycle you just bought, aka your car.

This sounds like a Lebron23 post

[ArbitraryWater]

This sounds like a Lebron23 post

Okay thats funny af :lol

[GOBB]

No I’m super athletic and a physical specimen and I went on gear to see what my potential was and it’s wild. Keep being fat midge beaner though :lol

Admitted roid use? Explains you oh so well. Meathead

[warriorfan]

Admitted roid use? Explains you oh so well. Meathead

**** off you midget white boy

[Off the Court]

https://www.shutterstock.com/image-photo/sad-alcoholic-expressing-desperation-indoors-260nw-642021340.jpg

"I have more freinds than I can keep track of"
"I have sex with Playmates"
"I'm a super athletic physical specimen"
"PLEASE BELIEVE ME!"

:roll:

[ArbitraryWater]

Admitted roid use? Explains you oh so well. Meathead

Every single famous bodybuilder, fitness model, even female Instagram chicks doing fitness is on gear. Not sure this is something you can judge someone for.

[Baller234]

Cocaine is not giving you an unfair advantage. What kind of nonsense did you just type? lol The effects of cocaine doesn’t even last long. Nice swing and miss there bud.

You're giving warriorfan shit for being argumentative but here you are for focusing on that singular point in my post. Lol okay pal.

The intent wasn't to put cocaine on the same pedestal as steroids, but it's still considered a performance enhancer. These guys weren't just snorting before games they were snorting *during* games.

Players on coke are definitely going to be more alert, confident and focused in the short term. How is that not an unfair advantage? I'm not saying it's as effective as taking steroids, but if you're going to take issue with PED's my point was that you would have to audit the entire history of baseball.

[warriorfan]

https://www.shutterstock.com/image-photo/sad-alcoholic-expressing-desperation-indoors-260nw-642021340.jpg

"I have more freinds than I can keep track of"
"I have sex with Playmates"
"I'm a super athletic physical specimen"
"PLEASE BELIEVE ME!"

:roll:

Your entire existence is seething at other alpha males

Lmao

[Off the Court]

Your entire existence is seething at other alpha males

Lmao

Your entire existence is overcompensating in here for your micro-meth-peenis :oldlol:

[Hey Yo]

Every single famous bodybuilder, fitness model, even female Instagram chicks doing fitness is on gear. Not sure this is something you can judge someone for.

But steroids didn't become illegal until 1990 and competitions didn't start testing until 1992. The claim everyone used or uses was more true in the 80's than after 1992. Especially if you wanted to make a living out of it.

[AlternativeAcc.]

But steroids didn't become illegal until 1990 and competitions didn't start testing until 1992. The claim everyone used or uses was more true in the 80's than after 1992. Especially if you wanted to make a living out of it.

You're talking about Bodybuildng? The 90s produced some of the biggest freaks ever. There was no trying to compete clean. You either abused them or weren't competing at all.

[GOBB]

You're giving warriorfan shit for being argumentative but here you are for focusing on that singular point in my post. Lol okay pal.

The intent wasn't to put cocaine on the same pedestal as steroids, but it's still considered a performance enhancer. These guys weren't just snorting before games they were snorting *during* games.

Players on coke are definitely going to be more alert, confident and focused in the short term. How is that not an unfair advantage? I'm not saying it's as effective as taking steroids, but if you're going to take issue with PED's my point was that you would have to audit the entire history of baseball.

So let me get this straight you’re saying I’m focusing on a singular point in your post. Then follow it up with more nonsense. I don’t have to address the amphetamines part because that’s not something I disagree with. Or did you just want to hear from me “hey you’re right about everything except…”? Seems like you need an attaboy when someone points out something silly in what you said.

What baseball players were doing coke during the game to maintain its effects and benefitting from it production wise. By all means run off names. Snorting cocaine doesn’t have a lasting effect. Baseball games are entirely long. 2 1/2 a 3hrs. A snort doesn’t last that long. So what every 3 innings they are playing with their noses? For fun let’s say they do. Please name players. Name numerous players to justify playing taking roids in the 90’s to players taking cocaine during games to keep a hitting streak alive. You and meathead just be talking. Now have you and this idiot made some good points in this thread? Yes. Do I need to state that? No. Your cocaine take was dumb. Now don’t reply to me without just showing me a list of players who did cocaine during games and benefitted.

[GOBB]

Every single famous bodybuilder, fitness model, even female Instagram chicks doing fitness is on gear. Not sure this is something you can judge someone for.

You judge people daily. Especially people of color. The audacity to tell me what to judge and what not to judge. Go walk into traffic

[GOBB]

https://eckeraadjustment.web.illinois.edu/era_adjusted_V2.1.html

He's top 15 on the lists here so may have just been an error not including him.

The rocket was a dawg. Damn

[tpols]

You judge people daily. Especially people of color. The audacity to tell me what to judge and what not to judge. Go walk into traffic

GOBB if you were on steroids and trained boxing youd probably be able to beat some of us white boys in a fight.

But alas you aren't and haven't and thus its an impossibility. :lol

[Hey Yo]

Yeah, talking about entering into competitions. Guys like Tom Platz and Alfred Beckles competing back in the 80's I'm sure we're using. Dudes thighs were bigger than putting 3 telephone poles together. I really didn't follow after the 80's too much, just figured once competitive testing started, it pretty much weaned out the abusers.

[Off the Court]

GOBB if you were on steroids and trained boxing youd probably be able to beat some of us white boys in a fight.

But alas you aren't and haven't and thus its an impossibility. :lol

We've all seen you. You weigh like 80 lbs :oldlol:

[ArbitraryWater]

But steroids didn't become illegal until 1990 and competitions didn't start testing until 1992. The claim everyone used or uses was more true in the 80's than after 1992. Especially if you wanted to make a living out of it.

Huh? They arent testing, everyone is on roids. Always was.

[ArbitraryWater]

You judge people daily. Especially people of color. The audacity to tell me what to judge and what not to judge. Go walk into traffic

So, you have no rebuttal? Thx I suspected. Yea I judge muppets / racists like you, of course. But I dont tell anyone to kill themselves. Youre different.

[GOBB]

So, you have no rebuttal? Thx I suspected. Yea I judge muppets / racists like you, of course. But I dont tell anyone to kill themselves. Youre different.


What are you bored? You talk to me about judging people and your entire existence here is…judging people. Do you need threads bumped? Posts copied and paste? Or do you have a counter for this up your sleeve in the deflection playbook? Yikes.

[Norcaliblunt]

The taking steroids to become HE-MAN business is what directly led to the transitioning into a trans whatever business.

Point blank period end of discussion.

[1987_Lakers]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=92kMb0vJzGk

[warriorfan]

The taking steroids to become HE-MAN business is what directly led to the transitioning into a trans whatever business.

Point blank period end of discussion.

Homie, just lookin out but you being weird right now lmao

[ArbitraryWater]

What are you bored? You talk to me about judging people and your entire existence here is…judging people. Do you need threads bumped? Posts copied and paste? Or do you have a counter for this up your sleeve in the deflection playbook? Yikes.

Well if you hate deflections, I have a post for you to reply to:


Every single famous bodybuilder, fitness model, even female Instagram chicks doing fitness is on gear. Not sure this is something you can judge someone for.

[GOBB]

Nothing you’re saying makes sense. The idiot admitted to doing roid. It explains his meathead tendencies of posting 1 liners full of immature and idle threats. Continue spinning in circles tho. And tell us how you judge black people in general on this board clown.

[1987_Lakers]

This shit is hilarious. Getting jumped by multiple Pirates players for being an asshole, getting voted off your college team by teammates because nobody liked you (the manager kept him on).


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FBIXF947ZnI

[GOBB]

https://youtube.com/shorts/NmcbQSWK-e8?si=AFMM5ty-w035qjn0

[ArbitraryWater]

Nothing you’re saying makes sense. The idiot admitted to doing roid. It explains his meathead tendencies of posting 1 liners full of immature and idle threats. Continue spinning in circles tho. And tell us how you judge black people in general on this board clown.

Youre a naive person gobbo. Every high level athlete is juiced to some extent. None of them are "meatheads" or go on errating posting sprees.

So, what youre asserting makes 0 sense. Now stop deflecting you muppet.

[GOBB]

Youre a naive person gobbo. Every high level athlete is juiced to some extent. None of them are "meatheads" or go on errating posting sprees.

So, what youre asserting makes 0 sense. Now stop deflecting you muppet.

You’re defending the meathead is hilarious. Do you sneak in touching his ass when he least expects it too? Appears that way. Very cringe. I couldn’t care less about others. I’m addressing the meathead who did roids and probably still does. You just enjoy inserting yourself in things I’m involved in. We call that obsession my guy. You’re not sneaking any ass touching over here bud.

[ArbitraryWater]

You’re defending the meathead is hilarious. Do you sneak in touching his ass when he least expects it too? Appears that way. Very cringe. I couldn’t care less about others. I’m addressing the meathead who did roids and probably still does. You just enjoy inserting yourself in things I’m involved in. We call that obsession my guy. You’re not sneaking any ass touching over here bud.


You didnt seriously accuse me of deflecting when you deflect every single post, right? Do you legit have 0 awareness?

Your take on "meatheads" makes no sense. You respect Barry Bonds for one.

All of your favorite athletes used roids.

And you saying "doing roid" is classic :lol

[GOBB]

You didnt seriously accuse me of deflecting when you deflect every single post, right? Do you legit have 0 awareness?

Your take on "meatheads" makes no sense. You respect Barry Bonds for one.

All of your favorite athletes used roids.

And you saying "doing roid" is classic :lol

I’m talking about one meathead in particular that admitted to doing roids. Which ties into his rage and nonsense spewed here. You want to talk about others. Why? No clue. You need a significant other badly. Try a dating app. Might help you or not

[warriorfan]

Meathead? Lmfao. Dude sounds like a ****ing child. Acts like one too. ****ing hilarious.

[warriorfan]

You didnt seriously accuse me of deflecting when you deflect every single post, right? Do you legit have 0 awareness?

Your take on "meatheads" makes no sense. You respect Barry Bonds for one.

All of your favorite athletes used roids.

And you saying "doing roid" is classic :lol

Lebron23 status :roll:

[ArbitraryWater]

Lebron23 status :roll:

He admitted to doing roid!! :lol:lol

[warriorfan]

He admitted to doing roid!! :lol:lol

:roll:

Dude is weird

[warriorfan]

This shit is hilarious. Getting jumped by multiple Pirates players for being an asshole, getting voted off your college team by teammates because nobody liked you (the manager kept him on).


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FBIXF947ZnI

You were a self admitted obese beaner and couldn’t even put yourself in a position to get jumped if even you wanted too. You were a poor fat beaner child making comments from the peanut gallery much like you are doing now. You are the ultimate loser.

[ShawkFactory]

You were a self admitted obese beaner and couldn’t even put yourself in a position to get jumped if even you wanted too. You were a poor fat beaner child making comments from the peanut gallery much like you are doing now. You are the ultimate loser.

To be fair...Bonds was, for the most part, NOT a well-liked individual :lol

Both media and teammates. He softened a little as he got older but 90s Bonds was absolutely an asshole.

Funny story, my uncle was at game one of ALCS in '92 and had seats in left field. He so relentlessly heckled him throughout the game that Bonds gave him the finger and yelled at him. Said he was so proud and the entire section game him a standing O. He credits himself for Bonds having just an okay series and the Braves moving on :lol

[1987_Lakers]

To be fair...Bonds was, for the most part, NOT a well-liked individual :lol

Both media and teammates. He softened a little as he got older but 90s Bonds was absolutely an asshole.

Funny story, my uncle was at game one of ALCS in '92 and had seats in left field. He so relentlessly heckled him throughout the game that Bonds gave him the finger and yelled at him. Said he was so proud and the entire section game him a standing O. He credits himself for Bonds having just an okay series and the Braves moving on :lol

It seemed like he was usually a terrible postseason performer minus 2002.

[GOBB]

It seemed like he was usually a terrible postseason performer minus 2002.

He wasn’t a terrible postseason player. Early pirates yeah but to allow that narrative to describe his playoff performance in his career? Misleading. His postseason production didn’t match his regular season dominance that’s for sure. But terrible is a bad way to describe it. And 2002 is up there are one of the best postseasons.

[GOBB]

To be fair...Bonds was, for the most part, NOT a well-liked individual :lol

Both media and teammates. He softened a little as he got older but 90s Bonds was absolutely an asshole.

Funny story, my uncle was at game one of ALCS in '92 and had seats in left field. He so relentlessly heckled him throughout the game that Bonds gave him the finger and yelled at him. Said he was so proud and the entire section game him a standing O. He credits himself for Bonds having just an okay series and the Braves moving on :lol

What made bonds being an asshole even more funnier was his voice. The voice matches someone that is a total dbag

[warriorfan]

To be fair...Bonds was, for the most part, NOT a well-liked individual :lol

Both media and teammates. He softened a little as he got older but 90s Bonds was absolutely an asshole.

Funny story, my uncle was at game one of ALCS in '92 and had seats in left field. He so relentlessly heckled him throughout the game that Bonds gave him the finger and yelled at him. Said he was so proud and the entire section game him a standing O. He credits himself for Bonds having just an okay series and the Braves moving on :lol

Bonds definitely had some sort of personality disorder. He was a spoiled brat that never really learned how to be a likable person as simply as I can put it. He was never forced to and naturally didn’t or couldn’t do it. But we are talking baseball not a personality contest. He was the best at baseball.