Is Donovan Mitchell still a superstar? Cuz AR does what he does but passes better

[FultzNationRISE]

So what does that make Reaves?

I tried to tell people one dimensional scorers arent the commodity they used to be.

I told people Mitchell wasnt gonna put the Cavs over the top. Hes not very big, hes not a great passer, defender, off ball player. He takes a lot of shots and scores volume on decent efficiency. Thats not a max salary best player in a title team caliber guy.

But you guys didnt believe me. You insisted Spida was a bonafide superstar.

So now you have to call Reaves the same thing.

Which you wont, youll retreat into the background and act like you never had the opinions that you did. Instead of just admitting you didnt see something the right way.



See, this is why I expect to get paid to give opinions. Because mine are better.

[Carbine]

The question isn't whether Reaves is playing at a superstar level. The question is can he do it for more than 5 games.....

I don't really think even the biggest Reaves hater would say he isn't playing like a superstar right now.

[FultzNationRISE]

The question isn't whether Reaves is playing at a superstar level. The question is can he do it for more than 5 games.....

I don't really think even the biggest Reaves hater would say he isn't playing like a superstar right now.


He had a run like this last year too when Lebron and Luka were out.

Obviously nobody AVERAGES forty over the course of the season. But Reaves' ability to score like a so-called first option isnt really in doubt at this point. If he was given the opportunity he could clearly do what other superstars do in the scoring column.

Which is sort of my point, scoring is not rare anymore. Edgecombe just scored the most points in a debut since Wilt. Markannen just went for 50. Lots of guys in the league can score now. If they dont do much else, maybe they shouldnt be getting max deals. You really wanna pay DeAaron Fox the same as Giannis? Why?

I just tend to see these trends coming before the crowd does. Itd be nice if you guys said thanks once in a while. Thank me for sharing useful and interesting information that you cant get in the mainstream.

YOURE WELCOME EVERYBODY.

[GOBB]

5 games vs seasons and postseasons worth of work. Great thread

[FultzNationRISE]

5 games vs seasons and postseasons worth of work. Great thread


You know I'm right GOBB.


You know I am.

[Norcaliblunt]

You know I'm right GOBB.


You know I am.

Why you such a predictable idiot like GOBB?

You’re gonna rep the white boy and he’ll stick up for every black person on the planet.

You both are two sides to same coin.

Y’all need more entaining gimmicks. The white vs black is so played out.

[FultzNationRISE]

Why you such a predictable idiot like GOBB?

You’re gonna rep the white boy and he’ll stick up for every black person on the planet.

You both are two sides to same coin.

Y’all need more entaining gimmicks. The white vs black is so played out.


You are one continuous, unending manic episode. Please seek help.

[Norcaliblunt]

You are one continuous, unending manic episode. Please seek help.

I may be manic, but I’m not making my thousandth WHITE VS BLACK thread in 2025.

Lmao.

Yeah let’s do white vs black for the millionth time!!!!

[SouBeachTalents]

You are one continuous, unending manic episode. Please seek help.
It's a GimmeThat alt, the manic posting is a dead giveaway.

[Yes or No]

Why you such a predictable idiot like GOBB?

You’re gonna rep the white boy and he’ll stick up for every black person on the planet.

You both are two sides to same coin.

Y’all need more entaining gimmicks. The white vs black is so played out.

You think GOBB is a gimmick. Haha. He should take that as an insult but he's too stupid to.

[FultzNationRISE]

I may be manic, but I’m not making my thousandth WHITE VS BLACK thread in 2025.

Lmao.

Yeah let’s do white vs black for the millionth time!!!!


Ummm I havent made any of those threads. This was about perception of superstar players. The fact one guy is black and one is white wasnt the point, unless you wanna argue thats what is affecting the perception, which might well be true but wasnt even the point I was making with the thread itself.

I'm afraid youre projecting your own obsessions, and badly embarrassing yourself as usual in the process.

Your participation on ISH is the equivalent of someone bursting into a room full of people and immediately shitting and pissing all over themselves as some kind of "statement". Thats the equivalent of what you do here.

Just so that youre aware.

[Norcaliblunt]

Ummm I havent made any of those threads. This was about perception of superstar players. The fact one guy is black and one is white wasnt the point, unless you wanna argue thats what is affecting the perception, which might well be true but wasnt even the point I was making with the thread itself.

I'm afraid youre projecting your own obsessions, and badly embarrassing yourself as usual in the process.

Your participation on ISH is the equivalent of someone bursting into a room full of people and immediately shitting and pissing all over themselves as some kind of "statement". Thats the equivalent of what you do here.

Just so that youre aware.

You know after smoking a bowl and rereading the thread and my posts I argee.

Imma try to do better.

Austin if he can keep it up he’ll be an all star.

[John8204]

Is Mitchell a top ten player? What is the line between star and superstar.

[FultzNationRISE]

You know after smoking a bowl and rereading the thread and my posts I argee.

Imma try to do better.

Austin if he can keep it up he’ll be an all star.


In fairness to you, you were right about GOBB.

[Xiao Yao You]

Is Mitchell a top ten player? What is the line between star and superstar.


Playing only one end of the court keeps you from being a superstar. Scoring points can make you a star. Certainly a lot more than 10 players i want on my team.

[GOBB]

Why you such a predictable idiot like GOBB?

You’re gonna rep the white boy and he’ll stick up for every black person on the planet.

You both are two sides to same coin.

Y’all need more entaining gimmicks. The white vs black is so played out.

Where is white vs black? You dudes just be typing up a bunch of nonsense.

[GOBB]

It's a GimmeThat alt, the manic posting is a dead giveaway.

Dudes are weird having numerous alts.

“Yes or No”

Should probably be named No Social Skills.

[Full Court]

So what does that make Reaves?

I tried to tell people one dimensional scorers arent the commodity they used to be.

I told people Mitchell wasnt gonna put the Cavs over the top. Hes not very big, hes not a great passer, defender, off ball player. He takes a lot of shots and scores volume on decent efficiency. Thats not a max salary best player in a title team caliber guy.

But you guys didnt believe me. You insisted Spida was a bonafide superstar.

So now you have to call Reaves the same thing.

Which you wont, youll retreat into the background and act like you never had the opinions that you did. Instead of just admitting you didnt see something the right way.



See, this is why I expect to get paid to give opinions. Because mine are better.

The greater point that OP is missing here is that Lebron has not one, but TWO superstar-level teammates for help.


:lebronamazed:

[ImKobe]

The question isn't whether Reaves is playing at a superstar level. The question is can he do it for more than 5 games.....

I don't really think even the biggest Reaves hater would say he isn't playing like a superstar right now.

From AD's last game to the end of the RS (33 games) he averaged 22.6/4.9/5.3 on 48/39/91 splits. He definitely was better than Mitchell in the last 2-3 months of the RS.

[Kblaze8855]

If you take a few games at face value then you obviously can’t limit it to Mitchell. If you are what you are for a week, he isn’t Mitchell. He’s Luka.

The problem is plenty of guys like Flip Murray, Jeremy Lin, And the lake have shown what we already know. Everyone in the NBA is great and most of them spent their entire lives as go to scorers. If you just let them do whatever the hell they want they can put up numbers for a while.

The difference between those guys and the Hall of Fame they can stand in for At times when they’re out It’s over months and years teams figure out what superstars want to do and still can’t do anything about it. You can give Marcus Pfizer the ball and have everyone get the hell out of the way. He would give you 2020 years ago. I had the tremendous pace of these days and the defenses being intentionally weakened On top of everyone being able to shoot, which limits double teams?

That 20 creeps up quite a bit.

But in time they realize You only do two things well They completely take one away and have all five people on the court trained to limit your other one.

So you get guys like flip Murray stand in for Ray Allen for two weeks and I’m on here reading that they should trade Ray Allen for a young big and let flip lead the sonics, Or Chris Paul twist his ankle and we have Darren Collision putting up 20 and 11 while people act like it was a system making Paul an MVP candidate, And Jeremy Lin without Carmelo and with a hobbled Amare out there with unchecked control and an incomplete scouting report getting legitimate TV specials produced.

then you never hear from Flip Murray again Darren Collison turns out to be Darren Collison. Jeremy Lin gets a contract with the Rockets and turns into David Wesley and we have to watch version 56 of it in this era which is even more friendly to a talented guard allowed sudden ball dominance when the team stars aren’t present to play the kind of game the team actually wants to play.

Long story Medium?

I don’t know what Reeves is, and you don’t either Because a good hundred guys in the league can go crazy under these circumstances.

You won’t know what he is until 90 video scouts have poured over every shot attempt of his season And given the specifics to the appropriate assistant coach who comes up with a plan to either stop it or let him do it to the detriment of the entire team and then that coach and four others totaling 130 years in the game Meet with the team and tell them how to implement it.

There’s a reason role players occasionally look like superstars for a week, but I never given a chance to do it for long.

Most of the league can score. These days most anybody who can dribble and shoot can be a playmaker. But if the team doesn’t feel they can do it With you at the head of the attack for years at a time with the other team fully prepared to stop you? They’re probably gonna have you space the floor for the people who can.

Mitchell is going to the Hall of Fame because you can study every shot of his season and he still might give you 50 in the playoffs when you’ve spent three days preparing to stop it.

You could put Colin Sexton on the Lakers right now without LeBron or Luka give him 70 touches And let him do whatever because these games don’t matter…..

He might score 28 or 30 a game till they get back.

and then they will put him where he belongs. In Lukas pocket.

You won’t know who he really is for a long time.

He might be Brunson in disguise. He might be Manu. He might be flip Murray with spacing and 15 more trips down the court. Sometimes you really do have Drazen Petrovic as a role player. But usually? Tim Thomas is just Tim Thomas.

The only thing we can be sure of is we don’t know.

[Xiao Yao You]

I know that id rather have sexton leaving it all on the floor than mitchell resting on the defensive end to the detriment of his club

[FultzNationRISE]

If you take a few games at face value then you obviously can’t limit it to Mitchell. If you are what you are for a week, he isn’t Mitchell. He’s Luka.

The problem is plenty of guys like Flip Murray, Jeremy Lin, And the lake have shown what we already know. Everyone in the NBA is great and most of them spent their entire lives as go to scorers. If you just let them do whatever the hell they want they can put up numbers for a while.

The difference between those guys and the Hall of Fame they can stand in for At times when they’re out It’s over months and years teams figure out what superstars want to do and still can’t do anything about it. You can give Marcus Pfizer the ball and have everyone get the hell out of the way. He would give you 2020 years ago. I had the tremendous pace of these days and the defenses being intentionally weakened On top of everyone being able to shoot, which limits double teams?

That 20 creeps up quite a bit.

But in time they realize You only do two things well They completely take one away and have all five people on the court trained to limit your other one.

So you get guys like flip Murray stand in for Ray Allen for two weeks and I’m on here reading that they should trade Ray Allen for a young big and let flip lead the sonics, Or Chris Paul twist his ankle and we have Darren Collision putting up 20 and 11 while people act like it was a system making Paul an MVP candidate, And Jeremy Lin without Carmelo and with a hobbled Amare out there with unchecked control and an incomplete scouting report getting legitimate TV specials produced.

then you never hear from Flip Murray again Darren Collison turns out to be Darren Collison. Jeremy Lin gets a contract with the Rockets and turns into David Wesley and we have to watch version 56 of it in this era which is even more friendly to a talented guard allowed sudden ball dominance when the team stars aren’t present to play the kind of game the team actually wants to play.

Long story Medium?

I don’t know what Reeves is, and you don’t either Because a good hundred guys in the league can go crazy under these circumstances.

You won’t know what he is until 90 video scouts have poured over every shot attempt of his season And given the specifics to the appropriate assistant coach who comes up with a plan to either stop it or let him do it to the detriment of the entire team and then that coach and four others totaling 130 years in the game Meet with the team and tell them how to implement it.

There’s a reason role players occasionally look like superstars for a week, but I never given a chance to do it for long.

Most of the league can score. These days most anybody who can dribble and shoot can be a playmaker. But if the team doesn’t feel they can do it With you at the head of the attack for years at a time with the other team fully prepared to stop you? They’re probably gonna have you space the floor for the people who can.

Mitchell is going to the Hall of Fame because you can study every shot of his season and he still might give you 50 in the playoffs when you’ve spent three days preparing to stop it.

You could put Colin Sexton on the Lakers right now without LeBron or Luka give him 70 touches And let him do whatever because these games don’t matter…..

He might score 28 or 30 a game till they get back.

and then they will put him where he belongs. In Lukas pocket.

You won’t know who he really is for a long time.

He might be Brunson in disguise. He might be Manu. He might be flip Murray with spacing and 15 more trips down the court. Sometimes you really do have Drazen Petrovic as a role player. But usually? Tim Thomas is just Tim Thomas.

The only thing we can be sure of is we don’t know.


These are fair points but maybe the reason guys like Flip Murray or Darren Collison or Lin eventually go back to being regular guys is because when the starter comes back their opportunity ends. Maybe it's not because they cant sustain it, but they dont get the same runway as the higher profile guys. And thats my point. A lot of guys in this league can provide what Donovan Mitchell provides for a fraction of the cost, they just never get to prove it because lottery picks get greenlights and endless opportunities to play thru their slumps, and other guys dont. If Lebron and Luka dont get hurt, everyone one would still be saying "Reaves cant carry the scoring like that." Nobody would know if the other guys never get hurt.

So my point is it's crazy to me people thinks guys like Mitchell and Bradley Beal are special, and somehow doing things half the league couldnt do if they had 200 million invested in them and 25 shots a game. That type of player is just not the commodity teams and fans think.

First Jared McCain was a revelation for the Sixers last year and now Edgecombe is doing the same thing. Theyre makin like 10 million combined the next couple years. These guys are gonna keep poppin up. You dont need to break the bank for DeAaron Fox anymore. And we can stop calling that type of player a superstar.

[Kblaze8855]

If you think the Difference between Max players potentially going to the Hall of Fame and 200 other players is being drafted high so someone lets them be a Hall of Famer there are deeper issues to work out with your evaluations.

NBA teams have never given less of a **** who you are. They’re out here straight up dropping top five picks because they don’t fit the plan. Guys who would’ve gotten chance after a chance 30 years ago because a GM and a coach were afraid to look bad end up literally in China before they’re 25.

You’re acting like these guys are cam reddish who can score on anyone but don’t play particularly good team ball.

The people who make the point you’re trying to make are like cam Thomas…

That’s just a scorer who wow definitely good at his one thing isn’t really helping a team do much

And all NBA first team who leads a 60 something win team to a second round loss while he has two injured star teammates missing games really isn’t the same thing.

This is more of the eve media age changing of standards where somebody has a career that has always been known as legendary, but saying reset the standard and act like you somehow been proven garbage if you don’t make some epic playoff run against the odds.

Much better players than Donovan Mitchell have better teams than these calves to considerably worse outcomes.

I personally sat there and watched Moses Malone, who was in his prime and I think younger than Donovan is right now and a three time MVP take a team with Dr. J and three additional All-Stars and get eliminated by a literal crackhead and Bernard King’s little brother.

And that doesn’t even crack the top ten list of undeniably great players with much bigger head scratching losses than anything that has ever happened to Donovan Mitchell.

We just have a gotcha society where incredibly negative people simply predict the failure of everyone as a means of giving themselves a way to be right and often unrelated ways.

I don’t like a lot of people In the game. I’m just gonna say none of them are superstars and wait for the inevitable defeat. I can act like I’m right 10 times a season at least. All you have to do is downplay somebody wait for a loss no matter how it happens or why then you get to be right even if nothing about what Happens supports it.

And in some cases, a fan would do it over and over and utterly disregard being proven wrong like you with Giannis, where you simply make up a reason you’re right anyway.

It’s pretty much always poor evaluation that goes in the face of considerably more informed takes that end up being supported by little but the inevitability of failure.

A dedicated hater looking to disqualify somebody as a superstar or whatever and using the standard you are could kick half the people out of a Hall of Fame. Conservatively half.

It doesn’t matter what some high-end role player and potential future star does on a team that would be absolutely hopeless. If composed the way he’s doing it. I just gave you a couple examples that are easy. I could probably go 30 deep off the top of my head and I think you know me well enough to know I’m not bullshitting.

Some legitimate good player has a good week and people start trying to get deep and question what greatness even is because of the shocking revelation that almost everyone in the NBA is great and would score if you gave them the ball all game with no expectation of winning.

what Ben Gordon might put up right now for a week on a team of 13 role players in a league that wouldn’t blink if he took 15 threes has nothing to do with if somebody going to the Hall of Fame as a star or not.

Teams go out there and score 260 points. Someone has to score them. Yes more people could contribute than the number of them considered superstars. But the superstars are considered it because for years at a time people qualified and interested in preventing it prove in capable.

Teams watch their role players all day every day. They aren’t shocked when a role player can string together baskets when there’s no other option on the court. I’ll listen to a sun Scout point out that in practice Jason Collins was such a good shooter they used him to practice stopping Dirk.

The reason they didn’t just try to make him Dirk is because 10 years of knowing exactly what he’s going to do didn’t help anybody stop him from doing it. And the people who make those decisions found it unlikely Collins could say the same if they try to build an offense around him.

That’s the biggest difference between a Hall of Famer and a good player. Hall of Famer is a Hall of Famer even when everyone has a solid plan and personnel in place to stop them.

A good player can look like a Hall of Famer for a little while because nobody cares enough about a good player to dedicate the time to design a defense against them. Especially when they’re just filling in and that iteration of the team won’t even exist in a game that matters.

That’s why you ultimately can’t compare a good player having a good week to a guy like Luka or any other superstar who has good years.

The other teams just don’t care about much about stopping a guy who will not be asked to carry the team when it matters. All you get out of trying to shut down a Reaves led offense is being less prepared to defend a Luka and LeBron one when it matters.

As I said, we don’t really know who he is. And as long as he’s on a team with those two we won’t.

Please excuse me. I’m starting to get funny looks from the woman I told I would help Get the winter clothes bins out of the storage room for. I’m gonna be in Chicago for a couple weeks.

[Kblaze8855]

Now that I see How long that was she had a point. I was probably wandering around for 20 minutes. But you know I don’t really say anything anymore. I probably won’t post again till I come across something interesting next week I can loosely relate to basketball as a means of starting a non-basketball topic on Chicago.

[Full Court]

We've had four full seasons to see Reaves play now. We have a pretty good idea of what his strengths and weaknesses are and what he can do. Yes, he's been living in the shadow of other people, but being a Laker, he's also played on the biggest stage in the NBA. In the '24 season he was top ten in the West backcourt for all star voting. And Lebron's been injured for a lot of games since Reaves joined the Lakers so we have a large sample of what Reaves looks like as the primary scorer.

So yeah, we really do know who he is.

[tpols]

There have been a lot of flash in the pan types who abuse a couple moves and / or cant handle a double team, but AR seems to have the whole package. He can shoot from anywhere on the court, can drive both ways with euro steps and spin moves thrown in, and even his foul bait flop game is pretty good. Hes not a one trick pony like Jeremy Lin aka bomb 3s or drive hard right. He can attack from any angle you leave open.

[Xiao Yao You]

Who will pay him max ?

[Kblaze8855]

We've had four full seasons to see Reaves play now. We have a pretty good idea of what his strengths and weaknesses are and what he can do. Yes, he's been living in the shadow of other people, but being a Laker, he's also played on the biggest stage in the NBA. In the '24 season he was top ten in the West backcourt for all star voting. And Lebron's been injured for a lot of games since Reaves joined the Lakers so we have a large sample of what Reaves looks like as the primary scorer.

So yeah, we really do know who he is.


there isnt a single thing there that tells you what he is as a franchise player. He’s never played a single game in his career as a leader where the other team gives a shit if he’s scoring any of 115 120 points everybody gives up these days. He’s on a team with people who are actually game planned against. Without them his team will be a bottom feeder. Teams don’t care what the other Guys can do when stars are missing and the team is no longer a threat. The Lakers without LeBron and Luka might as well be the Wizards. Built as they are, they would not be in the playoffs and teams do not have to take them seriously.

players like and worse than him have left good teams to be first options and been productive and irrelevant. You probably don’t know who Tony Campbell is, but he left the Lakers to go to the expansion Timberwolves and scored like 23 points a game. This is a six point per game player who given his own team, started scoring the same as Clyde Drexler in his prime.

So the issue isn’t what Reeves could do on a dog shit team like the Lakers would be without the two stars. He’s a good player. He is a good player in a league doing everything it can to handicap defenses while also having 300 shooters making it easy to drive. Of course, he will put up points. But there is nothing to suggest One way or the other if he’s effective because no team has ever had cause to seriously bother with limiting his effectiveness while he’s the best player.

Every time he’s been one in the NBA? If he is the best player on that floor, it’s because the real best players aren’t there and it doesn’t matter. It might loosely matter as in we win or lose this irrelevant game in October but it doesn’t matter enough that the team is building a serious game plan to prevent him from doing anything. Like I said NBA teams don’t care who scores 25 or 30 when they’re gonna give up 115 no matter what.

I’m not saying he’s not a good player. He obviously is. He’s just never been in a situation to find out how effective he would be if the other team didn’t have a reason to consider a night with him leading the attack as a night off.

you don’t find that out because someone misses several games. Not really.

i’m gonna see if I can find a podcast episode. I watched a while back with a former suns and Knicks video scout explaining why it’s so much harder on superstars in games that matter than it is on the other guys. These teams will put a staff of 3 to 5 guys on 16 hour days literally watching every shot of the last two years you took and have them build a program to deny you your five most effective Spots. You just can’t tell when you watch the game because it doesn’t ****ing work.

Every team maintains what’s called a last 50 report on every superstar that is a digital file Every player and coach has access to that shows how you created your last 50 made field goals so they know precisely what the stars are trying to do.

They don’t even look at it for people like Reeves. You request and they have to make one from scratch because nobody gives a shit. I’ll see if I can find it in a minute. It is an interesting insight. You’d probably be amused when they talked about the difference between LeBron‘s last 50 and Kobe‘s last 50. Apparently, it was utterly useless for Kobe because of the variety, but LeBron does like four things. You just can’t do anything about it.

Again…he could be a hall of famer in disguise. He could be just pretty good. There are Jalen Brunson situations. But he was out there winning playoff games in a series where the other team knew they needed those wins because Luka was coming back. And he did came through.

That is a fully dedicated to stop this guy in games that matter situation.

That isn’t opening week 3rd guy taking what he wants on a team that would win 26 games.

so as I said, we really don’t know. It’s entirely possible we won’t know for years. Manu had a whole career and we never really knew. But he was in much tougher spots against teams, who knew what he was trying to do And came through in situations we’ve never seen Reeves be placed.

If I had to bet? I’d say on a team that was hopeless he would be productive enough to raise some eyebrows. But I don’t know if that means he’s today’s version of Kevin Martin who with the increased pace might be scoring 28 or 29 a game instead of 24…or what.

like I said, sometimes your role player is secretly Brunson. They just usually aren’t no matter what they look like when they suddenly get 38 looks against a team that doesn’t care.

The added All-Star votes you get by playing with stars on the Lakers certainly isn’t a factor. AC Green started the damn All-Star game as the Lakers third best player. Karl Malone was so pissed off he went and dropped 61 and then boycotted the All-Star game and wouldn’t show up to come off the bench.

that Laker uniform does A lot for your standing in the league. Especially when you’re playing with stars who get you on TV 40 times a season.

I’m pretty comfortable saying I don’t know yet. Maybe you think you know. I thought I knew quite a few times in the past. I’ve reached my wait-and-see point. I think I’m all out of hot takes.

[Xiao Yao You]

there isnt a single thing there that tells you what he is as a franchise player. He’s never played a single game in his career as a leader where the other team gives a shit if he’s scoring any of 115 120 points everybody gives up these days. He’s on a team with people who are actually game planned against. Without them his team will be a bottom feeder. Teams don’t care what the other Guys can do when stars are missing and the team is no longer a threat. The Lakers without LeBron and Luka might as well be the Wizards. Built as they are, they would not be in the playoffs and teams do not have to take them seriously.

players like and worse than him have left good teams to be first options and been productive and irrelevant. You probably don’t know who Tony Campbell is, but he left the Lakers to go to the expansion Timberwolves and scored like 23 points a game. This is a six point per game player who given his own team, started scoring the same as Clyde Drexler in his prime.

So the issue isn’t what Reeves could do on a dog shit team like the Lakers would be without the two stars. He’s a good player. He is a good player in a league doing everything it can to handicap defenses while also having 300 shooters making it easy to drive. Of course, he will put up points. But there is nothing to suggest One way or the other if he’s effective because no team has ever had cause to seriously bother with limiting his effectiveness while he’s the best player.

Every time he’s been one in the NBA? If he is the best player on that floor, it’s because the real best players aren’t there and it doesn’t matter. It might loosely matter as in we win or lose this irrelevant game in October but it doesn’t matter enough that the team is building a serious game plan to prevent him from doing anything. Like I said NBA teams don’t care who scores 25 or 30 when they’re gonna give up 115 no matter what.

I’m not saying he’s not a good player. He obviously is. He’s just never been in a situation to find out how effective he would be if the other team didn’t have a reason to consider a night with him leading the attack as a night off.

you don’t find that out because someone misses several games. Not really.

i’m gonna see if I can find a podcast episode. I watched a while back with a former suns and Knicks video scout explaining why it’s so much harder on superstars in games that matter than it is on the other guys. These teams will put a staff of 3 to 5 guys on 16 hour days literally watching every shot of the last two years you took and have them build a program to deny you your five most effective Spots. You just can’t tell when you watch the game because it doesn’t ****ing work.

Every team maintains what’s called a last 50 report on every superstar that is a digital file Every player and coach has access to that shows how you created your last 50 made field goals so they know precisely what the stars are trying to do.

They don’t even look at it for people like Reeves. You request and they have to make one from scratch because nobody gives a shit. I’ll see if I can find it in a minute. It is an interesting insight. You’d probably be amused when they talked about the difference between LeBron‘s last 50 and Kobe‘s last 50. Apparently, it was utterly useless for Kobe because of the variety, but LeBron does like four things. You just can’t do anything about it.

Again…he could be a hall of famer in disguise. He could be just pretty good. There are Jalen Brunson situations. But he was out there winning playoff games in a series where the other team knew they needed those wins because Luka was coming back. And he did came through.

That is a fully dedicated to stop this guy in games that matter situation.

That isn’t opening week 3rd guy taking what he wants on a team that would win 26 games.

so as I said, we really don’t know. It’s entirely possible we won’t know for years. Manu had a whole career and we never really knew. But he was in much tougher spots against teams, who knew what he was trying to do And came through in situations we’ve never seen Reeves be placed.

If I had to bet? I’d say on a team that was hopeless he would be productive enough to raise some eyebrows. But I don’t know if that means he’s today’s version of Kevin Martin who with the increased pace might be scoring 28 or 29 a game instead of 24…or what.

like I said, sometimes your role player is secretly Brunson. They just usually aren’t no matter what they look like when they suddenly get 38 looks against a team that doesn’t care.

The added All-Star votes you get by playing with stars on the Lakers certainly isn’t a factor. AC Green started the damn All-Star game as the Lakers third best player. Karl Malone was so pissed off he went and dropped 61 and then boycotted the All-Star game and wouldn’t show up to come off the bench.

that Laker uniform does A lot for your standing in the league. Especially when you’re playing with stars who get you on TV 40 times a season.

I’m pretty comfortable saying I don’t know yet. Maybe you think you know. I thought I knew quite a few times in the past. I’ve reached my wait-and-see point. I think I’m all out of hot takes.

Ac probably their 4th best best player

[Kblaze8855]

There have been a lot of flash in the pan types who abuse a couple moves and / or cant handle a double team, but AR seems to have the whole package. He can shoot from anywhere on the court, can drive both ways with euro steps and spin moves thrown in, and even his foul bait flop game is pretty good. Hes not a one trick pony like Jeremy Lin aka bomb 3s or drive hard right. He can attack from any angle you leave open.


you see a lot missing from this guy, scoring skill, set wise?


https://youtu.be/OHlPDTLLZdA?si=dKmbomgmCmOJ6s_j

Just one game. And not even his best game that week. He’s got floaters in traffic. Off the dribble pull-ups. He could go both ways and finish in traffic. Spot up. Couple games before that he had 31 against a team that only gave up 89 points a game and played at a pace that would be unheard of in recent years. 12 teams have given up more than 120 points a game to start the year. There a teams giving up 129 a night. What do you think that 31 looks like Given the extra possessions and the extra spacing from an additional several shooters on every team?

I’m not kidding when I say I was on here arguing with people who were saying they should just trade Ray Allen. You would turn on SportsCenter and they would be playing that little flip song game over and doing a flip chant showing him light some team up. At least by those standards. Slower game so he wasn’t dropping 40.


sometimes flip Murray actually is Ray Allen. Sometimes he’s Flip Murray. And you never know until there is no Ray Allen to protect him and the other team cares if he’s doing it or not.

The guy is nice. He really is. I just don’t know if he’s Kevin Martin nice or if he’s Luka just because he’s doing Luka numbers for 3-4 games.

In my experience? These guys aren’t actually Luka.

But…sometimes they are.

I don’t think anyone Should be sure enough either way to not need more information yet. I don’t think he’s a flash in the pan. I just don’t know that he’s a fire. There aren’t many fires.

Kevin Martin wasn’t a fire. But I think he would be averaging 28 a game right now. So I’m not sure what to do with that.

[Kblaze8855]

Ac probably their 4th best best player

i’m trying to remember what year that was. It was 90 or 91 I think. So no Kareem. Obviously magic and worthy. I’m sure Byron Scott was scoring a good bit more. I bet he was secretly salty he didn’t get that all star spot. when you think about it as absurd as both of them are it would Be more defensible to put Byron Scott over Clyde Drexler, than to put AC Green over prime Karl Malone. At least he was having his best season.

But I think his best year was like 88 or so. I just wish I could’ve heard whatever Karl told John Stockton before that 61 point game. I think he only played like 30 or 31 minutes too. He was just trying to make a point but I don’t think he ever admitted it.

[Kblaze8855]

Always the overachiever, Laker forward A.C. Green beat out Utah Jazz forward Karl Malone in fan balloting Thursday to join teammate James Worthy as the starting forwards for the Western Conference team in next month’s NBA All-Star game.
Malone, most valuable player of last year’s All-Star game and an All-NBA selection last season, was so upset by the perceived slight that he told NBA officials he will boycott the game. Coaches from each conference will select reserves on Jan. 30-31, but Malone told friends he will stay home.

Malone declined to speak with reporters, but he informed Jazz owner Larry Miller of his wishes.
“The only thing I said to him was, just wait and let it settle in and see how you feel,” Miller said. “You’re too good not to be there. Don’t decide on emotion.” Starters for the Feb. 11 game in Miami are determined by fan balloting in each NBA city. And Green, in a major upset, had 160,788 votes to Malone’s 159,562. The Lakers’ Magic Johnson, Utah’s John Stockton and the Houston Rockets’ Akeem Olajuwon will be the other Western Conference starters.
Based on statistics and reputation, Malone figured to be the logical choice for an all-star starting berth. Going into Thursday night’s game against the Knicks, Malone ranked second in the league in scoring with an average of 30.6 points a game, fifth in rebounding with an average of 11.1 and fourth in field-goal percentage at 58.4%.

Green is the Lakers’ fourth-leading scorer with a 14.4 average and the leading rebounder with a 9.6 average. He is shooting 49%. Green is coming off his best game of the season in the Lakers’ 120-111 victory over Indiana Wednesday night. He made 11 of 12 shots, scoring 24 points, and grabbed 11 rebounds.




they ended up talking him into going, but he pretended he was too hurt to play. He just showed up and sat out. Claimed to be injured. Same guy who missed like eight games his entire career before that final season on the Lakers.

they probably should’ve done something about the fan vote right then, but it took Zaza almost making it on the Warriors 25 years laterto get the system changed.

Now I’m curious how close Jeremy Lin came.

[Carbine]

The amount of people to average 34/10 assists over a 5 game stretch is likely a very short list in the last 10 years filled with the names you'd expect.

If Reaves was ONLY scoring 34 a game it would be one thing but the play making is what should make someone think he could be a #1 or #2 guy on a contender.

[1987_Lakers]

i’m trying to remember what year that was. It was 90 or 91 I think. So no Kareem. Obviously magic and worthy. I’m sure Byron Scott was scoring a good bit more. I bet he was secretly salty he didn’t get that all star spot. when you think about it as absurd as both of them are it would Be more defensible to put Byron Scott over Clyde Drexler, than to put AC Green over prime Karl Malone. At least he was having his best season.

You know Scott was pissed that Ainge made the all-star that year as well, even though Ainge played in the east. Scott averaged more points than Worthy in '88, but had to watch the all-star game from home and watch Ainge perform. :oldlol:

I actually like Ainge more as a player though, a little more versatile than Scott.

[Carbine]

Brunson averaged 26 and 7 in games without Luka during his career.

Seems like a pretty good indicator of what he winded up putting in as a #1 option.

[Carbine]

Reaves has averaged 28/8 in games without Lebron during his career.

23/5/5 without AD last year.

Hes obviously going to do his thing if given the keys.

[Kblaze8855]

Chris Mullin and Tom Chambers should’ve been even more pissed off. They were both all nba and Tom was on a 55 win team. And when Lin was a rocket, he got more votes than Harden Westbrook or Steve Nash.






1.
James Worthy (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/worthja01.html)
163,053


2.
A.C. Green (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/g/greenac01.html)
160,788


3.
Karl Malone (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/m/malonka01.html)
159,562


4.
Xavier McDaniel (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/m/mcdanxa01.html)
158,759


5.
Kelly Tripucka (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/t/tripuke01.html)
77,832


6.
Chris Mullin (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/m/mullich01.html)
72,817


7.
Derrick McKey (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/m/mckeyde01.html)
67,430


8.
Thurl Bailey (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/baileth01.html)
64,102


9.
Tom Chambers (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/c/chambto01.html)
64,028


10.
Danny Manning (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/m/mannida01.html)
58,593

[Kblaze8855]

Brunson averaged 26 and 7 in games without Luka during his career.

Seems like a pretty good indicator of what he winded up putting in as a #1 option.

I’d say holding it down in the playoffs waiting for him to come back is what was indicative of what he could do especially because they knew Luka wasn’t out for good and they needed those games for Insurance. He won the Mavs games in the playoffs that the other team desperately wanted.

I’m wondering what we’re gonna see from Nesmith and Nembhard without Hali for the year.

They both looked like potential somebody’s when he was off a few times

[FultzNationRISE]

The amount of people to average 34/10 assists over a 5 game stretch is likely a very short list in the last 10 years filled with the names you'd expect.

If Reaves was ONLY scoring 34 a game it would be one thing but the play making is what should make someone think he could be a #1 or #2 guy on a contender.


Offensively hes Jayson Tatum. There is nothing Tatum does offensively that Reaves doesnt.

Tatum is a much better defender, but in an era where you cant hound a guy, and half the time players are launching from 30 feet where defense is irrelevant, individual D just isnt as valuable a consideration. A four time DPOY is constant meme'd as being a traffic cone. The game has become about outscoring people.

So Tatum is slightly ahead of Reaves overall because of the defense, but the idea Tatum is some "mvp level first option" and Reaves is some role player on a nice run lately... these are outdated perceptions people are just too lazy to update mentally. The game has evolved quickly the last 6-7 years in terms of what matters and what doesnt and many people are just slow to adapt their understanding. Including management personnel within the league itself.

[FultzNationRISE]

I’d say holding it down in the playoffs waiting for him to come back is what was indicative of what he could do especially because they knew Luka wasn’t out for good and they needed those games for Insurance. He won the Mavs games in the playoffs that the other team desperately wanted.

I’m wondering what we’re gonna see from Nesmith and Nembhard without Hali for the year.

They both looked like potential somebody’s when he was off a few times


This is fair. We dont know what Reaves in his current form would do in the playoffs. He hasnt been a consistent performer to this point in the role hes been in. So it's a fair question. But I think if he were the "first option" for a full season going into the playoffs (which he wont be) hed likely be able to get numbers at least.

To be clear tho, I do NOT think he can be the clear best player on a title team when youre talkin about both sides of the ball and the whole package. But I also never thought Donovan Mitchell could. Others disagreed and to this point it looks like I was right.

[Im Still Ballin]

He played two games as the 1st option (without LeBron, AD, or Luka) last season:

124-117 win vs. IND - 45 points, 7 rebounds, 7 assists, 3 steals, 4 turnovers (14/26 FG (.538) 4/9 3PT (.444) 10/17 2PT (.588) 13/13 FT (1.000))

126-131 loss vs. DEN - 37 points, 8 rebounds, 13 assists, 4 steals, 4 turnovers (13/26 FG (.500) 4/10 3PT (.400) 9/16 2PT (.563) 7/7 FT (1.000))

Including those two games, he played 9 games as either the first or second option. Austin averaged 27.9 ppg, 6.6 rpg, 8.3 apg, 1.4 spg, 2.9 topg on 49.1% FG (19.2 fga/g), 42.5% 3PT (8.1 3pa/g), 90.9% FT (6.1 fta/g), 63.6% TS.

Pretty nice numbers!

So, we've got 5 "first-option" games now - 2 from last season and 3 from this season. 40.4 ppg, 6.2 rpg, 10.0 apg, 2.8 spg, 4.2 topg on 50.8% FG (24.0 fga/g), 41.7% 3PT (9.6 3pa/g), 95.2% FT (12.6 fta/g), 68.4% TS.

So, he's cooking for sure. Concerns are sample size, obviously. How good is he? Hard to say. However, his skill set gives me confidence that he's legit. Tight handle & pull-up game. He's always been a great foul drawer, rim finisher, and short mid-range shooter; the three-point shot came in 2022-23, and the playmaking in 2023-24. Always been super efficient (career 109 TS+).

His situation is way closer to 2011-12 James Harden in OKC than Darren Collison, Jeremy Lin, or any other names mentioned.

[Carbine]

It's incredibly easy to say borderline top 10 player *so and so could never win a title as #1 guy*

Thats not something to brag about what so ever..... a large large majority of those guys never win a title.

Jalen Bruson will never win a title!!!

I'm not some expert calling something that has a 90 percent chance to hit. **** sakes.

[Kblaze8855]

This is fair. We dont know what Reaves in his current form would do in the playoffs. He hasnt been a consistent performer to this point in the role hes been in. So it's a fair question. But I think if he were the "first option" for a full season going into the playoffs (which he wont be) hed likely be able to get numbers at least.

To be clear tho, I do NOT think he can be the clear best player on a title team when youre talkin about both sides of the ball and the whole package. But I also never thought Donovan Mitchell could. Others disagreed and to this point it looks like I was right.


no, it just looks like you’re the kind of person who takes advantage of the fact that most great players never win to pretend all criticism is correct When they don’t. It’s entirely possible Jokic won’t win again. A simple twisted ankle that year could have him as a guy who never won. It’s entirely possible Luka never does. You can be legitimately goat level and lose 17 or 18 times. It’s conceivable.

Doesn’t make the people saying they can’t win correct. It only makes them feel correct. And the problem is when those people do it the people don’t simply say I was wrong. They try to twist it so the world was wrong to allow them to be incorrect. Like you saying Giannis can’t win then when he drops 50 to win a title you say he only won because they didn’t build a wall. You actually believe dedicating three or four people to crash down in front of the basket in a league with 300 shooters slowing down the guy trying to attack means he isn’t that great.

You watched him be guarded by a defensive player of the year with another defensive player of the year behind him and a guy who lead the league in blocks two or three times as the last line of defense with a very good defender in Siakam as the fourth person in this wall and determined it was a simple matter Anyone should be able to replicate and the failure to do so means you’re still right that he can’t win.

As if dedicating at least three people a possession to defend the paint against a guy who has had 20 assist games passing out against crashing help defenders is a simple decision. Unless the people around him have unbelievably bad shooting nights you’re just making it a three-point shooting drill. So teams don’t necessarily want to do that.

But every team not doing it….to you somehow proves your point.

It’s incredible the lengths people will go to to not be wrong. So it’s no surprise how tightly they grip onto anything that supposedly makes them right. And nothing makes somebody look more right than simply being critical of a tremendous number of people knowing the process of elimination is gonna make them 90% correct at the very least.

it’s the simplest of things being used by people trying to make themselves feel smarter than the average bear.

[FultzNationRISE]

He played two games as the 1st option (without LeBron, AD, or Luka) last season:

124-117 win vs. IND - 45 points, 7 rebounds, 7 assists, 3 steals, 4 turnovers (14/26 FG (.538) 4/9 3PT (.444) 10/17 2PT (.588) 13/13 FT (1.000))

126-131 loss vs. DEN - 37 points, 8 rebounds, 13 assists, 4 steals, 4 turnovers (13/26 FG (.500) 4/10 3PT (.400) 9/16 2PT (.563) 7/7 FT (1.000))

Including those two games, he played 9 games as either the first or second option. Austin averaged 27.9 ppg, 6.6 rpg, 8.3 apg, 1.4 spg, 2.9 topg on 49.1% FG (19.2 fga/g), 42.5% 3PT (8.1 3pa/g), 90.9% FT (6.1 fta/g), 63.6% TS.

Pretty nice numbers!

So, we've got 5 "first-option" games now - 2 from last season and 3 from this season. 40.4 ppg, 6.2 rpg, 10.0 apg, 2.8 spg, 4.2 topg on 50.8% FG (24.0 fga/g), 41.7% 3PT (9.6 3pa/g), 95.2% FT (12.6 fta/g), 68.4% TS.

So, he's cooking for sure. Concerns are sample size, obviously. How good is he? Hard to say. However, his skill set gives me confidence that he's legit. Tight handle & pull-up game. He's always been a great foul drawer, rim finisher, and short mid-range shooter; the three-point shot came in 2022-23, and the playmaking in 2023-24. Always been super efficient (career 109 TS+).

The issue for him when hes not ball dominant is the same as with Luka, and Mitchell, and a bunch of other ball dominant guys. Hes not an impact off-ball player. He's not a rim running threat, hes a decent spot up shooter but I wouldnt say knockdown. And hes not a defensive plus. So he really has to have the ball to be valuable. But in that specific role... yeah, hes pretty damn good.

[FultzNationRISE]

no, it just looks like you’re the kind of person who takes advantage of the fact that most great players never win to pretend all criticism is correct When they don’t. It’s entirely possible Jokic won’t win again. A simple twisted ankle that year could have him as a guy who never won. It’s entirely possible Luka never does. You can be legitimately goat level and lose 17 or 18 times. It’s conceivable.

Doesn’t make the people saying they can’t win correct. It only makes them feel correct. And the problem is when those people do it the people don’t simply say I was wrong. They try to twist it so the world was wrong to allow them to be incorrect. Like you saying Giannis can’t win then when he drops 50 to win a title you say he only won because they didn’t build a wall. You actually believe dedicating three or four people to crash down in front of the basket in a league with 300 shooters slowing down the guy trying to attack means he isn’t that great.

You watched him be guarded by a defensive player of the year with another defensive player of the year behind him and a guy who lead the league in blocks two or three times as the last line of defense with a very good defender in Siakam as the fourth person in this wall and determined it was a simple matter Anyone should be able to replicate and the failure to do so means you’re still right that he can’t win.

As if dedicating at least three people a possession to defend the paint against a guy who has had 20 assist games passing out against crashing help defenders is a simple decision. Unless the people around him have unbelievably bad shooting nights you’re just making it a three-point shooting drill. So teams don’t necessarily want to do that.

But every team not doing it….to you somehow proves your point.

It’s incredible the lengths people will go to to not be wrong. So it’s no surprise how tightly they grip onto anything that supposedly makes them right. And nothing makes somebody look more right than simply being critical of a tremendous number of people knowing the process of elimination is gonna make them 90% correct at the very least.

it’s the simplest of things being used by people trying to make themselves feel smarter than the average bear.


I mean certainly when I said "could not" or "never" theres some implied hyperbole. What I mean is theyre not high on the list youd expect it from. Theres enough players ahead of them who would all have to have bad luck for a team that's riding Mitchell or Reaves to win a title. Is it possible? Sure. But not as perennially likely as a Lebron, Joker, and then to a slightly lesser extent SGA, Luka, Giannis, prime Steph or KD, then to a little bit lesser extent than that Tatum, Ant.

But yeah of course it's not impossible. I understand that.

[Im Still Ballin]

I wonder what teams might throw a max at him? Surely, LA's going to pick him over LBJ due to youth. Luka + Reaves to mimic the Brunson/Kyrie duos and try to build Dallas 2.0. Find rim rollers/rim protectors & some wing 3&Ds.

[Carbine]

I mean certainly when I said "could not" or "never" theres some implied hyperbole. What I mean is theyre not high on the list youd expect it from. Theres enough players ahead of them who would all have to have bad luck for a team that's riding Mitchell or Reaves to win a title. Is it possible? Sure. But not as perennially likely as a Lebron, Joker, and then to a slightly lesser extent SGA, Luka, Giannis, prime Steph or KD, then to a little bit lesser extent than that Tatum, Ant.

But yeah of course it's not impossible. I understand that.

Wow, Lebron/Joker/SGA/prime Steph are more likely to win a title than MItchell?

That is expert level stuff. How much is your subscription again?

[Kblaze8855]

As far as number comparisons and comparisons to people like Tatum?

I don’t know. I’m not the biggest Tatum guy, but I think what we have now is an every day is a sunny day problem. I’ll let forgotten Hood classic vampire in Brooklyn explain it


https://youtu.be/87Pe6_24Rfc?si=5i2LfUID6FIi4wIS



as he said. If every day is a sunny day….. what’s a sunny day?


a combination of unbelievably good shooting along with the league openly rigging the game for the offense has turned the entire league into a land of sunny days.

I guarantee you if there are more than a few games tonight someone’s gonna score 130. Maybe 140. Only so many players are gonna play big minutes. And not all of them will be scorers. You’ll have like six scorers who have to count for 130 points instead of 90 or 95.

Regardless of how good the players themselves are the increased pace and the style turns middling production to good production and good production to superstar production.

let’s not act like I’m talking about the quality of the players themselves. A player today doesn’t have to be worse to be less productive in a league that allows fewer possessions and doesn’t modify the rules for entertainment.

but what matters is the end result. There is a soft cap on how productive anybody is gonna be. The ceiling is only gonna raise so much unless you have a situation where you have the tremendous pace and somebody like Wilt is being specifically asked to score like never before scene for the express purpose of generating excitement.

the leagues best scores are gonna hang around 30 a game. Maybe a little more. But the difference between the best scorers and the really good scorers isn’t gonna be 15 points.

So with the ceiling staying roughly in place, but the floor being raised by more possessions and beneficial rules the line between good and star is almost nonexistent, and the line between star and all-time great is even thinner.

when everyone the least bit good at attacking could realistically go get 25 out of 138 points. It’s easy to say a lot more People are on the same level.

we all know that just because Jordan had a 29 game 46 or so percent shooting MVP season and Isaiah Thomas had something similar on the Celtics that doesn’t mean they’re the same level of offensive player. But thing is…. if you move that Jordan up just because he potentially could score 40 a game doesn’t mean he’s going to do it on a good team that isn’t asking it of him.

if Jordan scores 32 while Isaiah Thomas scored 30 and Isaiah is similarly or more efficient because he shoots threes and makes 90% of his free throws people who base rankings on numbers would have trouble deciding who is better on offense.

it’s not that there isn’t a difference. The difference is just made slimmer by raising the floor while the ceiling stays more or less constant.

I think the days are done where a good player tops out at 17 game but the elites score 30. A good player given freedom is gonna have numbers that would put him in the Hall of Fame at any point between the 70s and 10 years ago.

When the league is nonstop sunny days it’s harder to differentiate because good and great are both gonna have great production.


it’s easy to say he can be Tatum because Tatum is close to a soft cap of reasonable production in a league that makes it a lot easier to reach that soft cap.

and that makes it harder than ever to know what you’re seeing. You don’t have to be as good as whoever to be roughly as productive as whoever. Especially if we’re gonna throw out defense and the need for it to lead to an effective team style of play.

we are too close to the dawning of the era of nonstop sunshine. We have to reset the standards and I feel like it’s gonna take a while.

[FultzNationRISE]

Wow, Lebron/Joker/SGA/prime Steph are more likely to win a title than MItchell?

That is expert level stuff. How much is your subscription again?



It's about tree fiddy.

[Xiao Yao You]

I wonder what teams might throw a max at him? Surely, LA's going to pick him over LBJ due to youth. Luka + Reaves to mimic the Brunson/Kyrie duos and try to build Dallas 2.0. Find rim rollers/rim protectors & some wing 3&Ds.

Hopefully la gives him max. Two guys other teams want to put on an island on max deals. Good luck with that formula! :cheers:

[tpols]

Hopefully la gives him max. Two guys other teams want to put on an island on max deals. Good luck with that formula! :cheers:


I mean... no offense bro but your boy has been put on an island in the playoffs and embarrassed many times while offering almost 0 offensive capability. Aside from simple screen setting and bobbling the ball on any move he makes.

[Xiao Yao You]

I mean... no offense bro but your boy has been put on an island in the playoffs and embarrassed many times while offering almost 0 offensive capability. Aside from simple screen setting and bobbling the ball on any move he makes.

More stops than embarrassments while playing for top offensive teams. Facts tell a different story than the false narratives

[tpols]

I'm really curious what the difference between Manu and Reaves is? Manu was obviously a better defender but by how much? He played on loaded defensive San Antonio teams where he never took top guys... Bowen did... and Timmy anchored the paint. What would his defense be on a shit defensive team? I'm not seeing much. But AR has a higher offensive ceiling.

[Carbine]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o9XbDCXLE94

That's a good place to start.

The 2004 Olympics would also be another place to start.

[Xiao Yao You]

Id take manu over most fuys. Certainly over reeves. Lakers may have beat the wolves last year with manu

[Hey Yo]

I'm really curious what the difference between Manu and Reaves is? Manu was obviously a better defender but by how much? He played on loaded defensive San Antonio teams where he never took top guys... Bowen did... and Timmy anchored the paint. What would his defense be on a shit defensive team? I'm not seeing much. But AR has a higher offensive ceiling.

Reaves is going to be a starter the rest of his career to where Manu was only a starter in 2 of the 16 seasons he played avg. only 25mph while Reaves us avg. 30mpg. A prominent 6th man really shouldn't be compared to a starter.

[tpols]

Id take manu over most fuys. Certainly over reeves. Lakers may have beat the wolves last year with manu

And thats why I'm asking why. His defense wasnt that great. He actually made some really boneheaded plays on defense in the playoffs that cost spurs a title... straight up. His game was scoring and genius passing at times. Reaves can dime too and has a higher scoring ceiling. Its just wierd that you have a huge rift between them. Manu on a bad team isn't a known player.

[tpols]

Like youre shitting on Reaves for getting a max bag. If Manu was maxed out today his team would be going nowhere too. Probably in the lottery after he gets injured trying to carry huge load.

[Xiao Yao You]

Reaves is going to be a starter the rest of his career to where Manu was only a starter in 2 of the 16 seasons he played avg. only 25mph while Reaves us avg. 30mpg. A prominent 6th man really shouldn't be compared to a starter.

Manu wasnt just any 6th man. :facepalm

[Carbine]

He literally beat a superteam of NBA players as the #1 guy in 2004 on the world's biggest stage.

I think he proved at the very least he could be the #1 guy on a title contender. He already proved he could float between a 1.b to #3 option on a dynasty. That's quite a difference than being an underperforming #3 option on two first round exit teams and a #5 option on a WCF team.

[Xiao Yao You]

And thats why I'm asking why. His defense wasnt that great. He actually made some really boneheaded plays on defense in the playoffs that cost spurs a title... straight up. His game was scoring and genius passing at times. Reaves can dime too and has a higher scoring ceiling. Its just wierd that you have a huge rift between them. Manu on a bad team isn't a known player.

Pop wouldnt have played reaves other than maybe a steve kerr role. Playing d mattered. Bowen sucked but he played

[Hey Yo]

Manu wasnt just any 6th man. :facepalm

But he still only avg. 25mins a game. It would of been more if Pop thought he deserved it.

[Carbine]

He literally beat a superteam of NBA players as the #1 guy in 2004 on the world's biggest stage.

I think he proved at the very least he could be the #1 guy on a title contender. He already proved he could float between a 1.b to #3 option on a dynasty. That's quite a difference than being an underperforming #3 option on two first round exit teams and a #5 option on a WCF team.

[Hey Yo]

If he proved he could be the #1 option on a contender just by watching the 2004, obviously a team would've thrown BIG $ at him to run their offense.

How can a player whose the 6th man the majority of his career have been a 3rd option on a dynasty or any team for that matter?

[Xiao Yao You]

But he still only avg. 25mins a game. It would of been more if Pop thought he deserved it.

Averaged between 28 and 34 in the playoffs in their first 3 championship runs. Spurs invented load management. Manu was there when they needed him most. Reeves over mitchell if you choose but he had done nothing to even be mentioned in the same breath as manu

[tpols]

He literally beat a superteam of NBA players as the #1 guy in 2004 on the world's biggest stage.

I think he proved at the very least he could be the #1 guy on a title contender. He already proved he could float between a 1.b to #3 option on a dynasty. That's quite a difference than being an underperforming #3 option on two first round exit teams and a #5 option on a WCF team.



I rep Manu for 2004 Olympics all the time but its beyond naive to think that because he won in a 1 and done tournament he could carry an NBA team as 1st option through 82 game season and 20+ playoffs games. Theres 0 chance his body would even hold up to that load. So no.... he absolutely did not prove that.

In a short season? With 1 and done playoff series? He could pull an Eli Manning and beat Brady. But then again if AR is dropping 50 point triple doubles in the short term he could too.

You didnt have to post it twice to get it to this page. I quoted the original goofy.

[Carbine]

If he proved he could be the #1 option on a contender just by watching the 2004, obviously a team would've thrown BIG $ at him to run their offense.

How can a player whose the 6th man the majority of his career have been a 3rd option on a dynasty or any team for that matter?

Reading this question of yours makes me feel bad

[ShawkFactory]

The issue for him when hes not ball dominant is the same as with Luka, and Mitchell, and a bunch of other ball dominant guys. Hes not an impact off-ball player. He's not a rim running threat, hes a decent spot up shooter but I wouldnt say knockdown. And hes not a defensive plus. So he really has to have the ball to be valuable. But in that specific role... yeah, hes pretty damn good.

I've seen you get on Tatum a lot, even using Reaves as a comparison in this thread. He is all three of these things here. Even if his shot is not falling he's a huge positive because of all the little things he does.

[FultzNationRISE]

Hopefully la gives him max. Two guys other teams want to put on an island on max deals. Good luck with that formula! :cheers:


Trade for Toody and theyll have three of those guys.

[Xiao Yao You]

Trade for Toody and theyll have three of those guys.

Besides for his age gobert would certainly make sense. Lets hope la doesnt get the gift of rudy. La can have ayton. :cheers:

[Carbine]

I rep Manu for 2004 Olympics all the time but its beyond naive to think that because he won in a 1 and done tournament he could carry an NBA team as 1st option through 82 game season and 20+ playoffs games. Theres 0 chance his body would even hold up to that load. So no.... he absolutely did not prove that.

In a short season? With 1 and done playoff series? He could pull an Eli Manning and beat Brady. But then again if AR is dropping 50 point triple doubles in the short term he could too.

You didnt have to post it twice to get it to this page. I quoted the original goofy.

Manu only had one significant injury in his first 8 years. He was playing around 73 games per season on average until he was 34 years old and not withstanding the one season he got hurt for half the season.

He averaged right around 28-30 minutes per game during this time. Giannis is his MVP season averaged 30 minutes a game.......

I can absolutely say his body would hold up. It did back then to the tune of 73 games per season on 28-30 minutes a game..... in todays soft era, YES absolutely YES he could replicate those minutes and games played.

Class dismissed. Go grab your troll costume and get knockin'

[Hey Yo]

Reading this question of yours makes me feel bad

Reading your answer is a huge tell that a 6th man can't be s 3rd option.... unless he gets inserted a few minutes into the game (in each half) and play the majority of the game. Can't be 3rd option if you qualify for the 6th man award

[FultzNationRISE]

I've seen you get on Tatum a lot, even using Reaves as a comparison in this thread. He is all three of these things here. Even if his shot is not falling he's a huge positive because of all the little things he does.


Defense of course, I agreed with that. I dont think Tatum is much of a difference maker as a rim runner. He's not Lebron, Aaron Gordon, Derrick Jones Jr, Giannis, Zion. And I definitely dont consider him a knockdown shooter. He's similar to Reaves there too. Capable, but streaky.

So I stand by the comparison offensively. I think Reaves is actually craftier/more slippery. Tatum is a bit stronger. Altogether I think it's a wash.

[tpols]

He never did those minutes or times as 1st offensive option though. Duncan and Parker did. What youre saying makes no sense. And I'm a huge manu fan. Wearing size 14 shoes with a size 8 feet you are. :lol

*Honk honk*

[Carbine]

Reading your answer is a huge tell that a 6th man can't be s 3rd option.... unless he gets inserted a few minutes into the game (in each half) and play the majority of the game. Can't be 3rd option if you qualify for the 6th man award

Are you 12 years old? Honest question.

I watched all those Spurs games. Every single one of them. Manu could be argued as the #1 offensive producer for the 2005 playoffs (not to be confused with the best player) and was every single year from 2004 until he was 34 years old AT WORST the #3 option. Most times aruably #2. I believe he was voted top 10 MVP three times in his late 20s.....

If he wasn't the #3 guy, who was?

Bruce Bowen? Brent Barry?

Come on. You have to be smarter than this, no?

[Xiao Yao You]

So much for reavesanity

Dave McMenamin: Luka Doncic and Marcus Smart have been both upgraded to probable for tonight’s game in Memphis, per the Lakers.

x.com

[tpols]

So much for reavesanity

Dave McMenamin: Luka Doncic and Marcus Smart have been both upgraded to probable for tonight’s game in Memphis, per the Lakers.

x.com


Why you playa hating on Austin though?

Why be scared CCP? :lol

If he ain't good let it show.

[warriorfan]

Why you playa hating on Austin though?

Why be scared CCP? :lol

If he ain't good let it show.

Xaio hates on any player who can simply dribble a basketball…..


I wonder why? :lol :roll:

[FultzNationRISE]

Why you playa hating on Austin though?

Why be scared CCP? :lol

If he ain't good let it show.


He's clinging desperately to a time when defense had a bigger impact on a player's reputation/value. It has to do with his Toody obsesh.

[tpols]

Xaio hates on any player who can simply dribble a basketball…..


I wonder why? :lol :roll:

It doesnt matter if he cant hang huge 50 pieces when he dropping defense like this to save his team.


https://youtu.be/TukhfM5r4FM?si=Zc6fqviqa-vNQ689

The defense makes up for the offense.

[Xiao Yao You]

Xaio hates on any player who can simply dribble a basketball…..


I wonder why? :lol :roll:

Cant skip me!

No hate. Reaves is a nice offensive player. Comparing him with manu and tatum is ridiculous. When gis d isnt a liability let me know. Hopefully la gives him a max deal!:cheers:

[Hey Yo]

Are you 12 years old? Honest question.

I watched all those Spurs games. Every single one of them. Manu could be argued as the #1 offensive producer for the 2005 playoffs (not to be confused with the best player) and was every single year from 2004 until he was 34 years old AT WORST the #3 option. Most times aruably #2. I believe he was voted top 10 MVP three times in his late 20s.....

If he wasn't the #3 guy, who was?

Bruce Bowen? Brent Barry?

Come on. You have to be smarter than this, no?

Manu was a starter in 2005..... you can call him whatever option you want. If you want to get technical, he would be considered 3rd option only when playing with the 4 other starters.

Since when do players who qualify as 6th man be considered 3rd option at all times? Yes he was their 3rd option... under certain circumstances.

[Xiao Yao You]

Call him whatever you want. I want him on my team everyday of the week.

[SouBeachTalents]

Manu was a starter in 2005..... you can call him whatever option you want. If you want to get technical, he would be considered 3rd option only when playing with the 4 other starters.

Since when do players who qualify as 6th man be considered 3rd option at all times? Yes he was their 3rd option... under certain circumstances.
So James Harden wasn't the 3rd option on the Thunder because he came off the bench, Ibaka would get the 3rd option nod over him in your eyes?

[FultzNationRISE]

So James Harden wasn't the 3rd option on the Thunder because he came off the bench, Ibaka would get the 3rd option nod over him in your eyes?


I think you have misunderstood his point.

[Hey Yo]

So James Harden wasn't the 3rd option on the Thunder because he came off the bench, Ibaka would get the 3rd option nod over him in your eyes?

When Harden was in with the starters, yes he's 3rd option. If he was a starter, then of course he'd be considered 3rd option full time.

[ImKobe]

The amount of people to average 34/10 assists over a 5 game stretch is likely a very short list in the last 10 years filled with the names you'd expect.

If Reaves was ONLY scoring 34 a game it would be one thing but the play making is what should make someone think he could be a #1 or #2 guy on a contender.

Bro last year post-ASB he had 37/8/13 4 stls @Denver vs. a healthy Nuggets squad with Knecht, Goodwin, Vando & Len starting alongside him, with Bronny James playing 15 minutes in a close game that the Lakers ended up losing by 5. There's quite a few games like that from him with Lebron/AD/Luka out, when he's asked he just balls out if you give him the ball. There's no question he could be an All-Star caliber player on a different team. Obviously he's not 34 ppg good but 25+ on good efficiency sure. He's great at getting to the line whenever he attacks the paint which is one of those qualities you should look for in a potential star player.

[Kblaze8855]

Reading your answer is a huge tell that a 6th man can't be s 3rd option.... unless he gets inserted a few minutes into the game (in each half) and play the majority of the game. Can't be 3rd option if you qualify for the 6th man award

Teams have been led in scoring by a sixth man…several of them in fact. Lou Williams, Ben Gordon, Ricky Pierce. I’m not entirely sure Manu isn’t one of them from the late 2000s. It really isn’t as rare as you would think…and that’s a sixth man as leading scorer. A thousand of them have been second and third options.

Just an odd statement if you have been watching the game a while.