The All "Why am I not in the Hall of Fame?" Team

[L.Kizzle]

Who would be on your All-NBA "Why am I not in the Hall of Fame?" Team. No one should be namimg Patrick Ewing's or John Stockon's as they are not even ELIGIBLE or haven't been NOMINATED for the Hall. Just players who have not made it.


C - Artis Gilmore
F - Adrian Dantley
F - Bernard King
G - Sidney Moncrief
G - Dennis Johnson


F/C - Spencer Haywood
F - Dennis Rodman
F - George McGinnis
F - Chet Walker
G - Paul Westphal
G - Maurice Cheeks
G - Kevin Johnson

[Aussie Dunker]

i say gilmore and the worm should be in...

[dejordan]

that list really shows how the committee thinks of defensive guards w/ moncrief, dj, and cheeks. i don't understand at all how joe dumars can make the HoF and DJ can't. they have basically the exact same accomplishments, but DJ has been eligible for longer.

[Interminator]

DJ WILL make the HOF in the next 2 years
Adrian Dantley WILL make the HOF in the next 2 years
Artis Gilmore WILL make the HOF in the next 2 years

Sidney Moncrief will get in in the next 5 years,he was a 2 time DPOY and 5 time all star but his numbers aren't that impressive
Bernard King is the exact opposite of Moncrief but he doesn't have barely anything but him being a good scorer,he'll make the HOF in a weak class

Chet Walker isn't in because few of the people that vote care anything about great players in the 60's or 70's

George McGinnis sadly will fall into the "ABA star who was not as Great in the NBA" category

Spencer Haywood is going to get to the HOF in the next 5 years,the only knock on him is that he missed too many games overall in his career,he never played a full NBA season

Westphal will not,didnt put up great numbers and his poor supporting cast in Phoenix also,after his best season his averages began to decline towards the end of his career

KJ-injuries will cost him getting into the HOF,he never was as good as he was in his first 4 years of his career
Mo Cheeks-a good 80's era PG,not HOF worthy

Dennis Rodman-:oldlol: Best rebounders ever,but with his off the court issues most people and HOF voters remember him as being a joke rather than a great player

[Mathius]

Why don't we just let everyone in who averages more than 10 points or 10 rebounds. That sounds like a plan. I mean the HOF is already a joke, so why even try to regulate it now.

Mathius

[eauclaire447]

George McGinnis sadly will fall into the "ABA star who was not as Great in the NBA" category

correct me if i am wrong, but its the BASKETBALL HOF not the NBA HOF. this is correct right?? he should def be in

[Interminator]

correct me if i am wrong, but its the BASKETBALL HOF not the NBA HOF. this is correct right?? he should def be in
NBA was stronger than the ABA

he ended his career at the end of Indiana's Bench

[det2orl]

that list really shows how the committee thinks of defensive guards w/ moncrief, dj, and cheeks. i don't understand at all how joe dumars can make the HoF and DJ can't. they have basically the exact same accomplishments, but DJ has been eligible for longer.

Been saying this for years and getting yelled at by Piston fans. DJ was quite a bit better than Joe IMO. Particularly in his Sonics days. He was a SG who completely changed his game and became a true PG when he went to Boston.

[eauclaire447]

NBA was stronger than the ABA

he ended his career at the end of Indiana's Bench
he averaged 17pts 10 rebs and 2 steals a game in the NBA. his last couple of seaons did lower his numbers significantly though

[allball]

George McGinnis sadly will fall into the "ABA star who was not as Great in the NBA" category


Man dont even start me on McGinnis. he cost the Sixers the 77 championship (well not really but he played bad almost the whole playoffs). anyway he had his moments but definitely not an HOFer.

[dejordan]

Been saying this for years and getting yelled at by Piston fans. DJ was quite a bit better than Joe IMO. Particularly in his Sonics days. He was a SG who completely changed his game and became a true PG when he went to Boston.
even if you concede that they are even players, i still don't get it just because johnson has been eligible for a much longer time. actually i think there numbers are almost identical with joe having a small pts / fg% edge and dennis a small rebounding / assists / steals edge. and i don't think i'm being biased on this one either. dumars is one of the only pistons i ever liked. him and hill.

[Interminator]

he averaged 17pts 10 rebs and 2 steals a game in the NBA. his last couple of seaons did lower his numbers significantly though
He also aint relevant at all in the NBA

Rodman:
On August 5, 2007, Rodman appeared on stage with Pearl Jam at the Chicago musical festival Lollapalooza, as frontman Eddie Vedder proceeded to jump on Rodman's shoulders at the end of the band's set.

Rodman is GOD!:rockon:

[dejordan]

He also aint relevant at all in the NBA

Rodman:
On August 5, 2007, Rodman appeared on stage with Pearl Jam at the Chicago musical festival Lollapalooza, as frontman Eddie Vedder proceeded to jump on Rodman's shoulders at the end of the band's set.

Rodman is GOD!:rockon:
dennis rodman has the largest collection of pearl jam bootleg cds in the known universe. also he gave carmen electra the clap. i assume.

[Rockets(T-mac)]

Wow never knew Dennis Rodman wasn't in the Hall of fame......he really should be.

[Interminator]

dennis rodman has the largest collection of pearl jam bootleg cds in the known universe. also he gave carmen electra the clap. i assume.
GOD!:rockon:

[allball]

C - Artis Gilmore-Kareem dominated era
F - Adrian Dantley-Didnt get Utah deep in the playoffs as main man. Not popular enough
F - Bernard King-Didnt sustain greatness long enough. Bird/Magic era. weak playoff history
G - Sidney Moncrief-didnt get Bucks to Finals. Bird/Magic era. Small market
G - Dennis Johnson-Not popular enough. Played in Seattle. won a ship in Dr J's era. more popular guys on Sonics not in like Williams, Brown and Sikma not in. very good player but not one of the "greatest"


F/C - Spencer Haywood-played in the unpopular 70's. weak playoff history with 4 different teams. didnt sustain greatness long enough

F - Dennis Rodman-controversial. not a scorer. key player on ship teams but not a "franchise" type player. might get in though
F - George McGinnis-see my previous post
F - Chet Walker-dont know enough about Chet
G - Paul Westphal-not good enough
G - Maurice Cheeks-would have to go in as a defensive player. if Philly had won one more ship...maybe
G - Kevin Johnson-not good enough for long enough. if they had beat the Bulls would have a better shot. assists numbers too low for a passing PG and scoring not memorable enough in pressure situations ala Isiah.

[B-Low]

I definitely think Rodman should be in. He was an amazing rebounder/defender. Not good...AMAZING. I'll never forget the mind games he played with Malone to throw him off in the Bulls/Jazz finals. To play mental defense on a 20 year vet like that is just unthinkable.

[dejordan]

I definitely think Rodman should be in. He was an amazing rebounder/defender. Not good...AMAZING. I'll never forget the mind games he played with Malone to throw him off in the Bulls/Jazz finals. To play mental defense on a 20 year vet like that is just unthinkable.
but then malone's mind was always his achilles heel :)

[B-Low]

but then malone's mind was always his achilles heel :)

that and Mexican girls

[Showtime]

Artis Gilmore WILL make the HOF in the next 2 years

No, he won't. He's not eligible again until 2012. He didn't get even 1 vote in a few years, and so we will have to wait. Gilmore is the best center not in the HOF. It's a shame he hasn't been sent in by now, considering his career accomplishments.

[Interminator]

No, he won't. He's not eligible again until 2012. He didn't get even 1 vote in a few years, and so we will have to wait. Gilmore is the best center not in the HOF. It's a shame he hasn't been sent in by now, considering his career accomplishments.
How is that possible:oldlol:

Hes been retired for so many years,he should be nominated every year:confusedshrug:

[Glove_20]

Kevin Johnson is the best out of all those players.

[Showtime]

How is that possible:oldlol:

Hes been retired for so many years,he should be nominated every year:confusedshrug:
During his eligibility, he didn't recieve 1 vote in 3 straight years, so he's inactive until 2012.

[eauclaire447]

here is a pretty good formula to go by in evaluating potential for HOF

About the Hall of Fame Monitor

First, a few words about the Basketball Hall of Fame. When we think of hall of fames we usually think of them as being associated with one particular institution, such as the Baseball Hall of Fame and MLB or the Football Hall of Fame and the NFL, but basketball is different for a number of reasons. Basketball is a more global sport than most other professional American sports. It is not only played in many different countries and regions, but also played very well. It is also a cross gender sport, making the Basketball Hall of Fame open to many more women than the other hall of fames. And lastly, until the mid 1950's there were a variety of major pro basketball leagues throughout the country. Because of all of this, the basketball hall of fame has a wider variety and more diverse selection of players, coaches and contributors. The formula used for the HOF Monitor is really only valid for players who have played their entire careers in the NBA, ABA or a combination of both. For example, Arvydas Sabonis may make the hall of fame, but it will have more to do with his performance on the Russian National Team than for his play in the NBA.

For more information on the selection process for the Basketball Hall of Fame, visit their web site at http://www.hoophall.com.

The Hall of Fame Monitor is a formula with six components. It is meant to be used as a guide and not as a hard and fast rule. There are some players who do very well according to the formula and are not in the hall of fame, but for the most part this formula is a good scale.

The Formula:


75 points for each NBA MVP award
15 points for each All NBA First Team selection
1 point for each point of NBA career Approximate Value and .33 points for each point of ABA career Approximate Value
2.5 points for each point of NBA career Efficiency
3.5 points for each NBA Championship
-20 points for centers and -15 points for forwards
Formula Explanations

NBA MVP
Being an NBA MVP has been the best way to get into the hall. Every NBA MVP who is eligible for the Hall of Fame is in the Hall of Fame. When a player wins an MVP award, its almost as good as getting enshrined.

All NBA First Team
Being elected NBA First Team carries some weight with the hall. 80% of players who were All NBA First Team two or more times and are eligible for the hall of fame, are in the hall of fame. The percentage jumps to 96% for players with three or more NBA First Team selections. Being selected to an All NBA First team should be slightly easier for a forward or guard than a center because two forwards and guards are selected as opposed to one center.

Approximate Value (AV)
Approximate Value is a statistical calculation that provides an idea of how much a player contributed to his team over the course of a season. The career AV will provide an idea of how much a player contributed to his teams over the course of his entire career. This component gives players credit for long, solid careers. ABA AV is not given as much credit as NBA AV. The AV is also slightly biased towards centers and forwards.

Efficiency (EFF)
Efficiency is a measure of a players impact per game. Since it is a per game average, it helps players who had short, but spectacular careers. It is also the only component that can decrease over time. So a player who has a career EFF of 20.1 after five seasons, may fall off and only have a career EFF of 17.3 after 10 seasons. This means that the HOF Monitor score can actually fall for some players over time. EFF is slightly biased towards centers and forwards.

NBA Championship
Winning an NBA Championship is a good thing in the eyes of the Hall of Fame voters. It also gives that player some publicity and possibly enhances the perception that he is a great player. Players who play on multiple championship teams have a slightly increased chance of making the Hall of Fame.

C and F Penalty
The slight bias towards centers and forwards that AV and EFF have needs to be acounted for with a penalty. Centers are penalized 20 points and forwards are penalized 15 points. Each player in our system has been assigned one single position. This is not ideal, but in most cases works out fine. Players who play multiple positions were given the position that they played most over the course of their career.

This formula provides a handy guide for rating a player's HOF chances. It is not meant to be a way to compare players of different eras. 85% of all players with a HOF Monitor score of 135 or more and are eligible are in the Hall of Fame. 99% of players with a score of 160 or greater and are eligible are in the Hall of Fame. One thing you will notice is that good players tend to jump out to a quick pace. This is because of the player's career EFF score. Keep in mind that the career EFF score will probably not move very much for a player and in most cases will actually drop off as the player becomes older and his skills diminish
SOME EXAMPLES TO COME

[eauclaire447]

135 gets you in according to this.
mcginnis- 114
gilmore- 140
dantley- 126
king- 135
moncrief- 116
D johnson- 134
spencer haywood- 138
rodman- 118
walker- 113
westphal- 143
cheeks- 118
KJ- 121

[eauclaire447]

All Time HOF Monitor Scores
1. Kareem Abdul-jabbar 833*
2. Michael Jordan 731
3. Wilt Chamberlain 639*
4. Bill Russell 628*
5. Magic Johnson 549*
6. Larry Bird 529*
7. Karl Malone 501
8. Bob Pettit 460*
9. Moses Malone 449*
10. Oscar Robertson 409*
11. Tim Duncan 407
12. Bob Cousy 364*
13. Shaquille O'neal 361
14. Hakeem Olajuwon 338
15. Jerry West 317*
16. Charles Barkley 315*
17. Elgin Baylor 308*
18. Julius Erving 295*
19. David Robinson 289
20. Steve Nash 273
21. Kevin Garnett 262
22. Allen Iverson 237
23. John Havlicek 223*
24. Wes Unseld 223*
25. Bob Mcadoo 221*
26. Dolph Schayes 220*
27. George Gervin 213*
28. Rick Barry 212*
29. Dave Cowens 208*
30. Elvin Hayes 206*
31. Willis Reed 204*
32. Jason Kidd 201
33. Walt Frazier 200*
34. John Stockton 194
35. Jerry Lucas 194*
36. Kobe Bryant 189
37. Scottie Pippen 189
38. George Mikan 187*
39. Isiah Thomas 182*
40. Bill Walton 181*
41. Gary Payton 173
42. Nate Archibald 167*
43. Billy Cunningham 165*
44. Clyde Drexler 164*
45. Bill Sharman 162*
46. Neil Johnston 156*
47. Patrick Ewing 156
48. Robert Parish 152*
49. Paul Arizin 152*
50. Dave Bing 150*
51. Walt Bellamy 147*
52. Paul Westphal 143
53. Pete Maravich 143*
54. Dominique Wilkins 142*
55. Kevin Mchale 141*
56. Artis Gilmore 140
57. Chris Webber 138
58. Spencer Haywood 138
59. Dirk Nowitzki 137
60. Bob Lanier 136*
61. Bernard King 135
62. Sam Jones 135*
63. Gail Goodrich 134*
64. Dennis Johnson 134
65. Tim Hardaway 130
66. Reggie Miller 130
67. Hal Greer 130*
68. Lenny Wilkens 129*
69. Alex English 129*
70. David Thompson 128*
71. Nate Thurmond 128*
72. Bailey Howell 127*
73. Ed Macauley 127*
74. Tracy Mcgrady 127
75. Adrian Dantley 126
76. Earl Monroe 125*
77. Anfernee Hardaway 125
78. Jack Sikma 125
79. Bob Davies 123*
80. Larry Nance 122
81. Kevin Johnson 121
82. Horace Grant 121
83. Buck Williams 121
84. Dan Issel 121*
85. Chris Mullin 120
86. Gus Williams 120
87. Mitch Richmond 118
88. Maurice Cheeks 118
89. Alonzo Mourning 118
90. Dennis Rodman 118
91. Marques Johnson 118
92. Mark Jackson 117
93. Otis Thorpe 117
94. Ron Harper 117
95. Reggie Theus 117
96. Latrell Sprewell 116
97. Sidney Moncrief 116
98. Bill Laimbeer 116
99. Jeff Hornacek 115
100. Dave Debusschere 115*

*Hall of Fame Member
BOLD - Not yet eligible player

[eauclaire447]

HOF Monitor Scores of eligible players not in the HOF
1. Paul Westphal 143
2. Artis Gilmore 140
3. Spencer Haywood 138
4. Bernard King 135
5. Dennis Johnson 134
6. Adrian Dantley 126
7. Jack Sikma 125
8. Larry Nance 122
9. Kevin Johnson 121
10. Buck Williams 121
11. Gus Williams 120
12. Maurice Cheeks 118
13. Dennis Rodman 118
14. Marques Johnson 118
15. Reggie Theus 117
16. Sidney Moncrief 116
17. Bill Laimbeer 116
18. Jeff Hornacek 115
19. George Mcginnis 114
20. Paul Silas 114
21. Chet Walker 113
22. Mark Price 113
23. Bob Dandridge 112
24. Walter Davis 112
25. Randy Smith 110
26. Jojo White 110
27. Lafayette Lever 110
28. Norm Nixon 109
29. Bill Bridges 109
30. Jamaal Wilkes 109
31. Derek Harper 108
32. Terry Cummings 107
33. Richie Guerin 107
34. Truck Robinson 105
35. Dick Vanarsdale 105
36. Alvin Robertson 104
37. Rolando Blackman 104
38. Sam Lacey 104
39. Byron Scott 104
40. Maurice Lucas 104
41. Happy Hairston 103
42. Tom Chambers 102
43. Alvan Adams 101
44. Jeff Mullins 101
45. Norm Vanlier 101
46. Max Zaslofsky 101
47. Gus Johnson 100
48. Johnny Kerr 100
49. Rudy Tomjanovich 100
50. Dale Ellis 99

[eauclaire447]

i was really suprised by westphal though

[Locked_Up_Tonight]

And that Hall of Fame Monitor has not updated since last summer. So everyone that made the first team all-nba will be bumped up: Kobe, Dirk, Duncan, Nash, Amare. Plus Duncan gets 3.5 more for a ring. And Dirk gets 75 for the MVP. Then throw in the AV which should be around another 5-10 (depending on which player it is). Plus their efficiency has went up.

But back to the original topic...

I don't see any of them getting into the Hall of Fame. Kevin Johnson does have nice career averages. But he just did not have a long enough career. Same with Bernard King. Not long enough. Gilmore gets penalized because of the ABA. Dennis Johnson may get in, but the reason why Dumars is in over him is because the ONLY reason Dumars got in was because of his GM duties. The hall lets you go in as a player or coach, but they look at the body of work on EVERYTHING. Dantley was a high scorer but didn't do anything else. In fact, Dantley did not do anyuthing different than Aguirre. Dennis Rodman is not getting in because his career totals are putrid. His rebounding averages are nice. But that's the only stat is which he has a nice average. And his off the field troubles is going to hurt him. That was the reason Bullett Bob Hayes never seemed to get into the Hall even though he was better than most of the Steeler wide outs. Moncrief did not do enough. Don't know about Walker. Westphal may at some point when they look at his coaching career too. Much like they did Dumars. But it may take a long time. Maurice Cheeks was just never "great."

[D-Fence]

C

[eauclaire447]

And that Hall of Fame Monitor has not updated since last summer. So everyone that made the first team all-nba will be bumped up: Kobe, Dirk, Duncan, Nash, Amare. Plus Duncan gets 3.5 more for a ring. And Dirk gets 75 for the MVP. Then throw in the AV which should be around another 5-10 (depending on which player it is). Plus their efficiency has went up.

But back to the original topic...

I don't see any of them getting into the Hall of Fame. Kevin Johnson does have nice career averages. But he just did not have a long enough career. Same with Bernard King. Not long enough. Gilmore gets penalized because of the ABA. Dennis Johnson may get in, but the reason why Dumars is in over him is because the ONLY reason Dumars got in was because of his GM duties. The hall lets you go in as a player or coach, but they look at the body of work on EVERYTHING. Dantley was a high scorer but didn't do anything else. In fact, Dantley did not do anyuthing different than Aguirre. Dennis Rodman is not getting in because his career totals are putrid. His rebounding averages are nice. But that's the only stat is which he has a nice average. And his off the field troubles is going to hurt him. That was the reason Bullett Bob Hayes never seemed to get into the Hall even though he was better than most of the Steeler wide outs. Moncrief did not do enough. Don't know about Walker. Westphal may at some point when they look at his coaching career too. Much like they did Dumars. But it may take a long time. Maurice Cheeks was just never "great."

back to the original topic?? are you saying that has nothing to do with the topic at hand? it seems pretty accurate to me

[DaBull]

Dennis "The Worm" Rodman

http://imagesource.allposters.com/images/pic/RSPOD/RS749~Dennis-Rodman-Rolling-Stone-no-749-December-1996-Posters.jpg

He has 2 of these :
http://www.keyplusinc.com/Assets/pistons_ring.jpg

He has 3 of these :
http://www.lelands.com/App_Themes/Images/Auctions_Images/603/thumbnails_bidding/39783a.jpg

[L.Kizzle]

Who would be on your All-NBA "Why am I not in the Hall of Fame?" Team. No one should be namimg Patrick Ewing's or John Stockon's as they are not even ELIGIBLE or haven't been NOMINATED for the Hall. Just players who have not made it.


C - Artis Gilmore
F - Adrian Dantley
F - Bernard King
G - Sidney Moncrief
G - Dennis Johnson


F/C - Spencer Haywood
F - Dennis Rodman
F - George McGinnis
F - Chet Walker
G - Paul Westphal
G - Maurice Cheeks
G - Kevin Johnson
Five of these players are now in the Hall.

:applause:

[IGotACoolStory]

So 5 out of 12 and five years since you posted this... I guess that's solid.

What's your new team now?

[L.Kizzle]

So 5 out of 12 and five years since you posted this... I guess that's solid.

What's your new team now?
Yeah, I need a new squad now.



C - Maurice Lucas (I can't think of a good candidate for the center spot)
F - Spencer Haywood
F - Bernard King
G - Sidney Moncrief
G - Maurice Cheeks


F/C - George McGinnis
F - Bobby Jones
F - Bob Dandridge
F - Marques Johnson
G - Paul Westphal
G - Tim Hardaway
G - Kevin Johnson

[KG215]

What's the deal with Moncrief? Was his career/prime not long enough. He's a 2x DPOY, 4x All-Defense 1st team, 1x All-Defense 2nd team, 1x All-NBA 1st team, and 4x All-NBA 2nd team player. If you include his second season of 14-5-3 second season, he had a 6ish year prime of 20-6-4-1.5 on .508/.832 shooting, and .595 TS%, .512 eFG%.

Was he not the best player on those Bucks teams o the 80s? I know he probably wan't the clear cut best player or anything. They had Marques Johnson (think he came before these other guys), Terry Cummings, Paul Pressey, and Rickey Pierce but Milwaukee made the playoffs every year of Moncrief's career. He's one of the best perimeter defenders of all-time but he wasn't a slouch offensively in his prime, either. He's one of the more confusing cases to me mostly because I'm not old enough to have seen him play and don't know the whole story.