Official #54 NBA Player Of All Time According To ISH

[L.Kizzle]

#53 - Tracy McGrady or

[qwerty]

sam cassel

[Lebron23]

Mitch Richmond

[Richie2k6]

Pistol Pete Maravich
He's already in.

List is utterly bad now, hardly anybody gives reasoning and thought as to why they chose certain players, pretty much nobody gave a lengthy or legitimate reason as to how Tracy McGrady is better than Artis Gilmore or Adrian Dantley. Pete @ 52 was bad enough, but this is just too much.




http://www.celtic-nation.com/images/interview_photos/artis_gilmore5.jpg
My vote goes to Artis "A-Train" Gilmore.

Other than some random playing tape, looking at his statistics and accolades and a hell of a lot of research and reading, my knowledge of Gilmore is limited. But from what I've seen and heard, he is an all-time great, no doubt. He played in the ABA for his early career, then played in the NBA in '76. Putting up career averages of 22/17/3/3 in the ABA, 17/10/2/2 in the NBA and 18/12/2/2 combined, Gilmore was a dominant player in the 70's and early 80's. He was called The A-Train by fans and peers because he was one of the strongest players to ever play the game. He was well conditioned as well, playing in the NBA and ABA for 17 years. He once played 670 consecutive games. His statline of games played throughout his career:

84, 84, 84, 84, 84, 82, 82, 82, 48, 82, 82, 82, 64, 81, 71, 82, 71. He only had two seasons where he missed a significant amount of games.

Gilmore set the NCAA Divsion I record for most RPG averaged with 22.7 when he was in college, a record that still stands today. He was a shotblocker and excellent defender, averaging a career high 5.0 blocks per game in his rookie year in the ABA. He was a dominant force since day one. He's a 5x All-Defensive team member, and was top 10 in BPG and total blocks in every year of his career except his last three. Gilmore was a great leaper and athletic freak, quite frankly. He was a solid free throw shooter, too, for a big man, shooting 70% for a career average. Artis Gilmore is also top 25 all-time among points scored, top 10 all time in rebounds, blocked shots, games and minutes played. He also has the all-time highest career field-goal shooting percentage in both the NBA and the ABA. He's an 11x NBA All-Star, ABA MVP, ABA Rookie of the Year and ABA All-Star MVP, as well as an ABA Playoffs MVP. By the way, he was the league MVP and ROY in the same year, and he went 68-16 in his rookie year, 24 more than the previous year. He was an instant force in the NBA since day one. In his rookie year, he was 10th in PPG, 1st in RPG and 1st in FG%. His high FG%s always stood out, with him having the highest FG% of all-time with .599%. Gilmore even led the NBA in field goal percentage in 4 consecutive seasons, shooting a career best .670% one year.

Gilmore is a 5x All-NBA Team selection member, all in a row, all 1st Team. He won a ring in '75 with Kentucky in the NBA and captured the playoff MVP. During his ABA career, Gilmore established ABA records for career field goal percentage (0.557), career blocked shots (750), blocked shots in a season (287 in the 1973-74 season), and rebounds in a game (40), and is a member of the ABA All-Time team. He's second all-time in the NBA in total rebounds with 7169, and has been a top 10 RPG leader in the ABA and NBA combined for all the years of his career, except the last three. (Led the ABA in total rebounds for 5 straight seasons). He's been top 10 in the ABA and NBA in total points scored 7 times. Again, he's one of the most efficient players in NBA history. He has the highest FG% in NBA history and the highest FG% in ABA history. Gilmore led the NBA in true shooting percentage for 5 straight years, and has been top 5 in true shooting percentage for every single year of his career from start to end in the NBA and ABA. He's shot over 60% 5 times and he's been top 10 in PPG five times in his ABA and NBA career. In his ABA prime, he put up 18/18/3/3 in one year, and 23/16/2/3 the next year. His career high total points is 2003 and his career high total rebounds is 1491, set in his rookie year.

Even with all that, it's not like Gilmore was playing in an era where he was the only great player. There was Rick Barry, Billy Cunningham, Julius Erving, George Gervin, Connie Hawkins, Spencer Haywood, Dan Issel, Bobby Jones, Moses Malone, David Thompson, just to name a few. Then when he came to the NBA, he had to compete with the likes of Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, Larry Bird, Magic Johnson, Elvin Hayes, Moses Malone, Michael Jordan, George Gervin, Julius Erving, Adrian Dantley, Wes Unseld, Tiny Archibald, John Lucas, World B. Free, Eddie Johnson, Michael Ray Richardson, Pete Maravich, Kevin McHale, Robert Parish and Bill Walton, just to name a few. The fact that he led/was near the top of the league in rebounds and field goal percentage in that era is amazing. If your'e going to penalize Gilmore for putting up great numbers in the ABA, you might as well penalize Barry, Erving, Malone, as well, because a part of what they did in their career happened in the ABA as well. Gilmore has proven he can do what he did in the ABA in the NBA. His points and rebounds weren't as high as they were in the ABA because of better competition, but he was still a force to be reckoned with, without a doubt.

Gilmore was a very talented player on the court as well, and could score in many ways in the post, whether it was a banker, a baby hook, a finger roll, an up and under, or a dunk, he was a proven scorer down in the post. He was a feared shot blocker, amazing rebounder, great low-post defender, was athletic, and had skill, not just raw power. He was the ultimate prototypcial center. He did everything he was supposed to throughout his career: score, rebound, block and be efficient, and he did them all very well. He teamed up with Dan Issel in the frontcourt to form a 1-2 punch combo, and they lead the Colonels to 2 ABA Finals, winning the championship once. Gilmore was picked first in the NBA dispersal draft, over the likes of Moses Malone, Maurice Lucas and other stars.

'Gilmore and the Bulls erupted in the second half of the season, however, winning 20 of their last 24 games and making the playoffs with a 44-38 record. In a late-season game against the Seattle SuperSonics, Gilmore registered 32 points, 17 rebounds, 5 assists and 4 blocks. In a game against the 76ers, he had 29 points and 23 rebounds, while holding Philadelphia's three centers to a combined 13 points and 13 rebounds.'

He was traded to the Spurs later to join George Gervin, and became an NBA All-Star one last time. Gilmore was known to be one of the best and toughest at guarding Kareem-Abdul Jabbar, a player with a reasonable argument for being the greatest of all-time. Artis Gilmore is only one of 24 players to score over 20,000 points in his professional career. Gilmore's career NBA statline and ABA/NBA accolades:

- 17.1 PPG, 15, 579 NBA points, 1,747 blocks, 470 steals, 2.0 APG, 1,777 assists, 10.1 RPG, 9,161 rebounds, .713 FT%, .599 FG%, 909 games played.
- 11x NBA All-Star, ABA MVP and ROY, ABA All-Star MVP, ABA Playoffs MVP, 5x All-ABA First Team, 6x All-ABA/NBA Defensive Team combined.

[L.Kizzle]

He's already in.

List is utterly bad now, hardly anybody gives reasoning and thought as to why they chose certain players, pretty much nobody gave a lengthy or legitimate reason as to how Tracy McGrady is better than Artis Gilmore or Adrian Dantley. Pete @ 52 was bad enough, but this is just too much.
I didn't even vote for Mac, but I gave reasons why he's better the Dantley and Pete. As for Gilmore, it's a toss-up betyween those two.

[Optimus Prime]

T-Mac? Good grief. Next Vince Carter is going to get on the list because kids like his dunks.

:rollingeyes:

[brantonli]

What? I was reading the 53rd player of all time posts and I'd swear t-mac didn't get a single vote.....damn today's stats. AAs much as I love the Rockets, at least let T-Mac get past the second round before putting him in the top 100 of NBA history.

[L.Kizzle]

T-Mac? Good grief. Next Vince Carter is going to get on the list because kids like his dunks.

:rollingeyes:
People are acting like T-Mac is a bad choice, yet poster have been voting for Adrian Dantley and Pistol Pete since the early 30's?

[Optimus Prime]

Not me, I've been voting for Spree since the late 40s! :)

But seriously, what has T-Mac accomplished to be considered in the Top 55 best players in NBA history?

- Puts up good regular season stats (when he's not out with "back spasms")
- Cries a lot on national TV
- Loses in the first round every single time

:wtf:

I mean dang, I've been voting for Spree as kind of a joke (and I don't really know who else to vote for), but T-Mac? At least Spree has accomplished something and gotten somewhere.

And Richie is right, what is the justification for T-Mac? There is, 9 times out of 10, none given. Just someone named T-MacRules55 comes along and says "T-Mac!" then RocketsAreAwesome and StevieFranchise#1 come in and post "t-mac".

:banghead:


People are acting like T-Mac is a bad choice, yet poster have been voting for Adrian Dantley and Pistol Pete since the early 30's?

[Da KO King]

Dan Issell, Alex English, Bernard King, Adrian Dantley, Wal Bellamy, Dave Bing, James Worthy, and a few other guys just said "F@ck you and f@ck Tracy McGrady".

[Richie2k6]

People are acting like T-Mac is a bad choice, yet poster have been voting for Adrian Dantley and Pistol Pete since the early 30's?
McGrady votes are fine now, maybe one or two, but 53rd? A bit much. I'd put him in the late 50's or early 60's.

[Fudge]

Why are people acting like he doesn't deserve the 53rd best? Let alone being left out of the top 100? He was already listed as a Top 75 player (According to SLAM; at #75) when he was with Orlando -- so what makes you think he'll actually drop when he arguably had the best (all-around) seasons of his career with Houston? Eh, whatevs mayne.

[dhenk]

Robert Parish

You want a reason? Do your homework...

[L.Kizzle]

Not me, I've been voting for Spree since the late 40s! :)

But seriously, what has T-Mac accomplished to be considered in the Top 55 best players in NBA history?

- Puts up good regular season stats (when he's not out with "back spasms")
- Cries a lot on national TV
- Loses in the first round every single time

:wtf:

I mean dang, I've been voting for Spree as kind of a joke (and I don't really know who else to vote for), but T-Mac? At least Spree has accomplished something and gotten somewhere.

And Richie is right, what is the justification for T-Mac? There is, 9 times out of 10, none given. Just someone named T-MacRules55 comes along and says "T-Mac!" then RocketsAreAwesome and StevieFranchise#1 come in and post "t-mac".

:banghead:
Not you in particular just posters in general. McHrady has accomplished basically the same as Pete Maravich and Adrian Dantley yet these guys have been getting votes since the 30's.

I know Spree is a joke vote but when he was in Golden State, he didn;t accomplish sh.it. Once he got in New York with a team around him (Pat, Houston, LJ, Camby) that's when he finaly got somewhere.

McGrady >> Spree

[otmtheshank]

If we're ranking these players on talent/skill, then Artis would be a lot higher. However, like many big men during his time period, his prime only lasted 8 years, 6 of which were spent in the ABA. I actually tried to rally a few votes for Artis in the 30's, but was shot down as this poll is based purely on player's NBA careers.

During his NBA career, Artis came in and impressed players and fans alike with his freakish athleticism. He was well over 7 feet tall, could jump like Spud Webb, had the strength of Shaq, and was as mobile as a center could get. He dominated on both ends with his athleticism. However, he did not possess remarkable skills/coordination, and his lack of those became more evident as he aged, and lost some of his athleticism.

He still did put up great numbers in the NBA though. 17/10/2 along with a career PER of 20, and a career fg% of 60% were quite remarkable numbers for someone who was past his prime. He also received NBA MVP votes in 4 seasons. However, he lacked much team success in the NBA, as teams he played on only had 4 seasons with an above-.500 winning %.

I'd probably vote for Artis if I wasn't so intent on getting Moncrief into the top 60/65 players. If he receives a lot of votes, I may change my vote to him though.

[Glove_20]

Greer > Pistol > McGrady > Sam Jones

[Optimus Prime]

Oh, I'm not arguing that Spree > McGrady, just saying that Spree has at least gone somewhere as the first or second option on a team. The Finals with the Knicks. WCF with the T'Wolves. McGrady has been AT WORST the second option on a team with fellow All Star (and regarded as the best current center in the league) Yao Ming. What is the result? First round exit.

Who were All Stars on the Knicks that year they went to the Finals as an 8 seed? Seriously, I don't know, and I don't care to look it up. We all know KG was an All Star. So Spree was second fiddle to him, and still got to the WCF and met the Lakers dynasty of the early 00s.

T-Mac is way overhyped by the kids on this board because he puts up good regular season numbers. That's all I'm saying. Should Spree have been #53? :oldlol: No way. There are much better players than Spree to vote in. But there are also much better players than T-Mac to vote in.

I tend to value overall success rather than numbers, because anybody can put up numbers during the regular season. It is often said that the season doesn't start until April. Win or go home. Spree has won. T-Mac has gone home. Every. Single. Time. :confusedshrug:

I stand by my argument: if T-Mac is seriously being considered, than why not Spree? It's not like T-Mac is >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Spree. I could post numbers and accomplishments and such, but I've already done that in past threads. :D

Heck, AI at 31 isn't even that bad, considering he single-handily took a team to the Finals, is an MVP, 3rd (?) overall in scoring, etc. But T-Mac at #53? Get out of town.


Not you in particular just posters in general. McHrady has accomplished basically the same as Pete Maravich and Adrian Dantley yet these guys have been getting votes since the 30's.

I know Spree is a joke vote but when he was in Golden State, he didn;t accomplish sh.it. Once he got in New York with a team around him (Pat, Houston, LJ, Camby) that's when he finaly got somewhere.

McGrady >> Spree

[Miller Time]

He's already in.

List is utterly bad now, hardly anybody gives reasoning and thought as to why they chose certain players, pretty much nobody gave a lengthy or legitimate reason as to how Tracy McGrady is better than Artis Gilmore or Adrian Dantley. Pete @ 52 was bad enough, but this is just too much.

Yeah I know he should have been in at 50. :) Well since Pete is finally in I'm not going to fight anymore about him.

[Fudge]

Oh, I'm not arguing that Spree > McGrady, just saying that Spree has at least gone somewhere as the first or second option on a team. The Finals with the Knicks. WCF with the T'Wolves. McGrady has been AT WORST the second option on a team with fellow All Star (and regarded as the best current center in the league) Yao Ming. What is the result? First round exit.
And you should also tend to evaluate the production of the rest of the Rockets had. Why don't you do that my fellow sir.


Who were All Stars on the Knicks that year they went to the Finals as an 8 seed? Seriously, I don't know, and I don't care to look it up. We all know KG was an All Star. So Spree was second fiddle to him, and still got to the WCF and met the Lakers dynasty of the early 00s.
You're looking up at the stars of each team? Bad idea. Much better to have 3-4 solid 2nd option-like players than 2 solid all-stars -- much better. Not even close.


T-Mac is way overhyped by the kids on this board because he puts up good regular season numbers. That's all I'm saying. Should Spree have been #53? :oldlol: No way. There are much better players than Spree to vote in. But there are also much better players than T-Mac to vote in.
Sure, somebody can make a case, but if you're against T-Mac so much, why don't you "try" to redeem yourself by explaining how Gervin got in? Maravich? I'll expose myself, I haven't seen many players play back then, but hearing all these comments/feedback on the opposing vote, it seems like Maravich himself didn't accomplish much. Maybe it's a matter of finishing their career first to all of you? Um, no, big no no.


I tend to value overall success rather than numbers, because anybody can put up numbers during the regular season. It is often said that the season doesn't start until April. Win or go home. Spree has won. T-Mac has gone home. Every. Single. Time. :confusedshrug:
Overall success? He's taken a garbage (I mean garbage; a ****load i should say) team to the playoffs; even though he didn't make it past the first round with the Magic, look at his surroundings.


I stand by my argument: if T-Mac is seriously being considered, than why not Spree? It's not like T-Mac is >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Spree. I could post numbers and accomplishments and such, but I've already done that in past threads. :D
Because you're looking at overall success maybe? Hell, why isn't Robert Horry getting serious consideration right now? Overall success right?

[L.Kizzle]

Oh, I'm not arguing that Spree > McGrady, just saying that Spree has at least gone somewhere as the first or second option on a team. The Finals with the Knicks. WCF with the T'Wolves. McGrady has been AT WORST the second option on a team with fellow All Star (and regarded as the best current center in the league) Yao Ming. What is the result? First round exit.

Who were All Stars on the Knicks that year they went to the Finals as an 8 seed? Seriously, I don't know, and I don't care to look it up. We all know KG was an All Star. So Spree was second fiddle to him, and still got to the WCF and met the Lakers dynasty of the early 00s.

T-Mac is way overhyped by the kids on this board because he puts up good regular season numbers. That's all I'm saying. Should Spree have been #53? :oldlol: No way. There are much better players than Spree to vote in. But there are also much better players than T-Mac to vote in.

I tend to value overall success rather than numbers, because anybody can put up numbers during the regular season. It is often said that the season doesn't start until April. Win or go home. Spree has won. T-Mac has gone home. Every. Single. Time. :confusedshrug:

I stand by my argument: if T-Mac is seriously being considered, than why not Spree? It's not like T-Mac is >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Spree. I could post numbers and accomplishments and such, but I've already done that in past threads. :D

Heck, AI at 31 isn't even that bad, considering he single-handily took a team to the Finals, is an MVP, 3rd (?) overall in scoring, etc. But T-Mac at #53? Get out of town.
Yeah Spree has went farther in the playoffs then Mac, but so has Ray Allen. Is that a reason to start voting for Ray at #53 because he has been past the first round as the first option in his career?


That's really basically all you can say about Spree vs Mac. Mac has 6 All-NBA teams compared to Spre's ONE. McGrady has 7 All-Star games compared to Spre's FOUR.


Other then not winning a champioship, what does Spre have on McGrady, cool hair. Mac is a betterm scorer, rebounder, passer, Sprewell just has defense.

[The Answer]

I've been gone for a while. The list is well... interesting at places. I can't complain though since I haven't been around to make my opinions heard. Anyway, my vote's for Hal Greer.

[Optimus Prime]

:D

Spree has:

- Choked a coach and gotten away with it
- Has a family to feed
- Is insulted by 7 million a year
- Owns a successful custom rims shop in Milwaukee
- Is being sued by a "domestic partner" for $200 million (guess that's the family he has to feed eh?)
- Oh, he hit 9/9 3s in a game (tied with Ben Gordon)
- Played a big part in the Knicks going to the Finals and the T'Wolves going to the WCF

:)

As for the All Star appearances and such, once again...regular season.

I'm not really arguing Spree > T-Mac, but there are way more players that deserve to be voted above T-Mac. WAY MORE.

I mean, T-Mac > Big Game James? :oldlol:


Yeah Spree has went farther in the playoffs then Mac, but so has Ray Allen. Is that a reason to start voting for Ray at #53 because he has been past the first round as the first option in his career?


That's really basically all you can say about Spree vs Mac. Mac has 6 All-NBA teams compared to Spre's ONE. McGrady has 7 All-Star games compared to Spre's FOUR.


Other then not winning a champioship, what does Spre have on McGrady, cool hair. Mac is a betterm scorer, rebounder, passer, Sprewell just has defense.

[SRZ66]

Miles Simon

[haji_d_robertas]

This time I'm going to vote for Hal Greer.

G FG% FT% Rebs RPG Asts APG Pts PPG
1,122 .452 .801 5,665 5.0 4,540 4.0 21,586 19.2

To average this statline over fifteen years is a great achievement, he was a gifted and consistent player.

[Optimus Prime]

Heh...the spacing is off in the actual message. The .452 was under FT%, and I was like :oldlol:

:D


This time I'm going to vote for Hal Greer.

G FG% FT% Rebs RPG Asts APG Pts PPG
1,122 .452 .801 5,665 5.0 4,540 4.0 21,586 19.2

To average this statline over fifteen years is a great achievement, he was a gifted and consistent player.

[Miller Time]

This time I'm going to vote for Hal Greer.

G FG% FT% Rebs RPG Asts APG Pts PPG
1,122 .452 .801 5,665 5.0 4,540 4.0 21,586 19.2

To average this statline over fifteen years is a great achievement, he was a gifted and consistent player.

I dont want to vote for a player I dont know much about and never seen play a game, but the stats and achievements Hal Greer have done is amazing but I dont know much about the guy other than that. Can someone fill me in? If I was looking for best stats and achievements its either Greer or Dantley for me here, Im leaning towards voting for Greer. Tell me more about him please. Someone who actually watched him play please.

[L.Kizzle]

I dont want to vote for a player I dont know much about and never seen play a game, but the stats and achievements Hal Greer have done is amazing but I dont know much about the guy other than that. Can someone fill me in? If I was looking for best stats and achievements its either Greer or Dantley for me here, Im leaning towards voting for Greer. Tell me more about him please. Someone who actually watched him play please.
You saw Pistol play but not Hal? They played in the leauge together 3 seasons.

[Miller Time]

You saw Pistol play but not Hal? They played in the leauge together 3 seasons.

yup I've watched Pete games but no Hal games :/ I know who he was and all but never seen him in a game.

[Selenium]

Jerry Lucas. The only player other than Wilt to average 20/20 for more than one season.

[L.Kizzle]

yup I've watched Pete games but no Hal games :/ I know who he was and all but never seen him in a game.
Cool so your an oldtimer?

[Miller Time]

Cool so your an oldtimer?

pretty much so, well most my dad who loved pete in college, so I follow his "footsteps" you can say ;) I was just a kid when Pete was a rookie.

[KempSonics]

Hal Greer

[LBJ 4 MVP]

I, once again vote for Earl "Black Jesus" Monroe.

[D-Fence]

I again vote for Hal Greer.

I haven't seen much of his game, but I've read up on what those who played with him or witnessed him play have said of him. He was one of the best shooters in the NBA. He could score from anywhere: outside, drive to the inside (he went to the charity stripe often), and he was an especially reliable mid-range shooter. He was what we'd call a shooting guard today, but he would also move to forward or point if needed. He was an all-around great player. He's also said to have been a good defensive player--maybe better than Sam Jones and Oscar Robertson in that department. The only guards of his era who were consistently better than Greer were Robertson and Jerry West.

Every great guard at that time needed a dominant center to win a championship, though. Robertson needed Kareem; Sam Jones and Bob Cousy needed Russell; West needed Wilt, and so did Greer.

Greer had a long career and a good share of playoff success. Later in his career, Greer was considered the leader of the 76ers. He was their best player for a few seasons but accepted secondary roles alongside great players like Dolph Schayes and then Wilt Chamberlain.

The highlight of Greer's career was that he was arguaby the best player in the playoffs when he led the only team to defeat the Boston Celtics dynasty and win a championship when Bill Russell was healthy. Chamberlain was great, too, but he also had some off nights where Greer stepped up huge. Chamberlain led the team in scoring during the regular season, but Greer eclipsed him in PPG during the playoffs by about 6 PPG. When Wilt's scoring went down even more agaist Nate Thurmond in the Finals, Greer scored more.

Here's what Greer averaged in the 1967 playoffs: 27.7 PPG, 5.9 RPG and 5.3 APG. And him and Chamberlain barely sat down the entire playoffs.

And the 1960s was a strong basketball era. A disproportiante number of the NBA's 50 Greatest Players come from Greer's era. It made pro basketball a major sport.

[otmtheshank]

Sidney Moncrief

During his 5 year peak,
- He made 5 All-Star Teams
- He received two DPOY's(the first two in the history of the award)
- He made 5 All-Defense Selections(4 First Team)
- He made 5 All NBA Teams(From 82-91, only Moncrief, MJ, Magic, and Thomas were All-First Team guards)
- His team(Mil. Bucks) won 50 games each season, went to 3 ECF's.(Only to lose to the eventual champions each year).
- The Bucks had a combined regular season record of 272-138.
- He finished top ten in MVP voting each year(4th, 7th, 7th, 8th, and 8th)
- He averaged over 20 points, 5.5 rebounds, and 4.5 assists a season.
- He averaged at least 1.4 spg each season
- He had over a 59% TS over these 5 years.

He also led the Milwaukee Bucks to the third best record of the 80's, behind only the legendary Larry Bird-led Celtics, and Magic Johnson-led Lakers.

I expect Hal Greer, DeBusschere, and Monroe to get in before Moncrief, but I still got to rally for Squid to get in soon. I'll vote for Hal Greer this round to ensure his spot.

[haterofhaters]

I like Dennis Rodman and all, but does everyone really think he deserves to be in the top 50 greatest of all time?

[Noob Saibot]

T-Mac? Good grief. Next Vince Carter is going to get on the list because kids like his dunks.

i agree man, the list is already messed up. I vote VC now. f**k it!

[Da KO King]

Ray Allen versus Tracy McGrady is not nearly as lopsided as you guys make it out to be.

Allen - 21 pts 4 boards and 4 assists over his career
McGrady - 22 points 6 boards and 4 assists over his career.

[Richie2k6]

i agree man, the list is already messed up. I vote VC now. f**k it!
If Vince Carter gets in the top 60 I don't know what I'll do.

I like Dennis Rodman and all, but does everyone really think he deserves to be in the top 50 greatest of all time?
Nope.

[LBJ 4 MVP]

I like Dennis Rodman and all, but does everyone really think he deserves to be in the top 50 greatest of all time?
I would put him in like high 60' to mid 70's honestly.

[D-Fence]

I like Dennis Rodman and all, but does everyone really think he deserves to be in the top 50 greatest of all time?

To literally answer your question, no, not everyone thinks Rodman deserves to be in the top 50. I, however, voted for him at that spot. He was a champion who won everywhere he went and was one of the greatest rebounders and defensive players in NBA history.

[Chalkmaze]

To literally answer your question, no, not everyone thinks Rodman deserves to be in the top 50. I, however, voted for him at that spot. He was a champion who won everywhere he went and was one of the greatest rebounders and defensive players in NBA history.

He had his moments in San Antonio, both good and bad... he caused a lot of problems there actually, everyone likes to forget about that. Guy was a basket-case and difficult to deal with, and San Antonio shipped him out after only two years.

[Noob Saibot]

where is Grant Hill on the list man?

replace Dirk with Grant Hill!

[NIGHTMARE]

Earl Monroe

[D-Fence]

He had his moments in San Antonio, both good and bad... he caused a lot of problems there actually, everyone likes to forget about that. Guy was a basket-case and difficult to deal with, and San Antonio shipped him out after only two years.

If that's the case, and I agree with you that Rodman had his problems, then it's also the case that everyone likes to forget how much Rodman improved the Spurs.

Here's what Sean Elliott said:

I liked what Dennis did for David Robinson's game. He pushed him. He pushed him on the court. You have to remember, before Dennis came to San Antonio, Robinson was the savior--he was making holy water, if you know what I mean. When Dennis came to the team--and was a fan favorite--it pushed David.

Pre-Rodman, the Spurs were 49-33, and with him went 55-27 and then 62-20. One thing you might not expect is that the Spurs immediately became a better offensive team with Rodman (from about top 10 in the league to top 5) and immediately fell back down after he left (back to about top 10).

In 1995, when the Spurs won 62 games, Rodman missed quite a bit of time. With him, they were 42-7 and without him they were 20-13.

The main problem was that Rodman didn't lead teams to championships, but, really, neither did David Robinson. Robinson is a good guy, but he wasn't a very intense basketball player. He had quite a few outside hobbies and interests. Isiah Thomas, Michael Jordan and Scottie Pippen were much better leaders.

But, yeah, Rodman had some personality problems that didn't lend him to being a very good and consistent player and influence for very long on a merely good team.

[ForceOfNature]

One of my favorite players, Vince Carter.

[Optimus Prime]

Uggghhhh...here we go...it begins.....................


One of my favorite players, Vince Carter.

[ForceOfNature]

T-Mac? Good grief. Next Vince Carter is going to get on the list because kids like his dunks.

Vince is a great player too, his legacy will probably be equal to T-Mac's (because of T-Mac's amazing scoring ability, and Vince's ability to get past the first round).

[Jimmy2k8]

Adrian Dantley damnit...

[Napalm]

Artis Gilmore.

[nba_55]

Vince Carter

[Optimus Prime]

Get ready Richie, because it's coming...

:banghead:


If Vince Carter gets in the top 60 I don't know what I'll do.

Nope.

[t_mac]

:applause: :applause: :applause: T-mac got the 53rd spot.
Now my vote goes to Lebron James. He led his fuc*ing bad team to the finals.

[dawsey6]

Robert Parish is getting DESERTED on here. Where's the love? and for that matter, McGrady's in, and where the hell is Hill, who should've been top 50? ISH sucks at making lists, because we have player-greatness-ADD, and we're just wasting Kizzle's time. Sorry, man. :violin: Greatly appreciated, though.:cheers:

You guys wanted Tiny in, and you question why T-Mac is there at 53? No sense.

Parish, please...if I didn't vote already.

[Richie2k6]

Vince Carter
Jesus Christ... do you just vote for any random name that's already been said?

Now my vote goes to Lebron James. He led his fuc*ing bad team to the finals.
Oh. My. God. Kizzle, please don't count this vote. Easily the stupidest serious vote in all of these topics.

[IGOTGAME]

if Vince Carter gets in the next 30 picks or so I think the list is invalid and needs to redone from that point...

If we just made a list of people playing today Vince wouldnt even be top 20 in terms of greatness...look at all the players greater

Duncan
Kobe
Bron*
Nash
Dirk
TMAC
KG
JKidd
Payton
Mourning*
Penny*
Grant Hill*
Manu *
AI*
Ray Allen*
Paul Pierce*
Shaq*
Robert Horry*
Chris Webber*
Wade*

thats 20 players better than Vince today in the NBA...just today...all the guys with the stars still gotta get in before Vince

[otmtheshank]

if Vince Carter gets in the next 30 picks or so I think the list is invalid and needs to redone from that point...

If we just made a list of people playing today Vince wouldnt even be top 20 in terms of greatness...look at all the players greater

Duncan
Kobe
Bron*
Nash
Dirk
TMAC
KG
JKidd
Payton
Mourning*
Penny*
Grant Hill*
Manu *
AI*
Ray Allen*
Paul Pierce*
Shaq*
Robert Horry*
Chris Webber*
Wade*

thats 20 players better than Vince today in the NBA...just today...all the guys with the stars still gotta get in before Vince

I agree with you that it's a little early for Vince, but I think you're underrating him a bit by placing some of those players above Vince.

[IGOTGAME]

I agree with you that it's a little early for Vince, but I think you're underrating him a bit by placing some of those players above Vince.

which ones...

[Noob Saibot]

if Vince Carter gets in the next 30 picks or so I think the list is invalid and needs to redone from that point...

If we just made a list of people playing today Vince wouldnt even be top 20 in terms of greatness...look at all the players greater

Duncan
Kobe
Bron*
Nash
Dirk
TMAC
KG
JKidd
Payton
Mourning*
Penny*
Grant Hill*
Manu *
AI*
Ray Allen*
Paul Pierce*
Shaq*
Robert Horry*
Chris Webber*
Wade*

thats 20 players better than Vince today in the NBA...just today...all the guys with the stars still gotta get in before Vince

Vince Carter is better than Manu, Horry, Chris Webber, Ray Allen and maybe Dirk too. And Alonzo Mourning, HAHA! That's vince carter's b***h right there!

Vince Carter is already great because he is #1 rated dunker on ISH, even higher than Jordan, Dr J, and Wilkins. Vince is equal to Paul Pierce, AI, TMac and Wade.

[Richie2k6]

thats 20 players better than Vince today in the NBA...just today...all the guys with the stars still gotta get in before Vince
Get rid of Ginobili, Horry and Lebron and maybe Zo, then yes for the most part.

[basketballer4]

The Pearl.

[L.Kizzle]

HAL GREER once again.


-10 time All-Star
-7 time All-NBA 2nd team (1st team was on lock back then with West and Oscar)
-NBA Champ
-Appeared in multiple Finals and Eastern Division Finals
-Top 10 inn scoring , I believe 8 seasons
-Top 10 in field goal % 3 seasons
-Top 10 in assist 4 seasons
-Great shooter

[dawsey6]

Vince Carter is better than Manu, Horry, Chris Webber, Ray Allen and maybe Dirk too. And Alonzo Mourning, HAHA! That's vince carter's b***h right there!

Vince Carter is already great because he is #1 rated dunker on ISH, even higher than Jordan, Dr J, and Wilkins. Vince is equal to Paul Pierce, AI, TMac and Wade.

As great and incredibly blessed a talent he is, he's what I consider to be, how Charmin bears like to say, soft.

Or, if you don't like that term, a more fitting one would be to say, "Contract-Year Player," because he killed like he was supposed to during his contract year with Toronto, and after that, he really played weak in terms of what he was capable of doing. His averages went down (to 15.9 ppg, that's absolutely rediculous), he complained, and while proving not to be durable, he hid behind his knee injuries, missing a lot of games, in comparison to Iverson, who played crutial Sixers games with a broken tailbone, just to name one in many injuries in his prime. Due to his lack of respect for his team, skyrocketing to a higher scoring average almost doubling what he did in Toronto in the same season, he has little to no sense for real greatness. Why would you take him over a grid-iron all-star player like Zo? Because of one dunk? That's shallow, man. I'd definately take him over Manu, Horry, and maybe Dirk, too, but he's no equal to AI or Wade, maybe T-Mac and Pierce.

btw, #1 does NOT = great player. They aren't interrelatable.

[Richie2k6]

Vince Carter is already great because he is #1 rated dunker on ISH, even higher than Jordan, Dr J, and Wilkins. Vince is equal to Paul Pierce, AI, TMac and Wade.
Iverson and McGrady are better than Carter right now and on an All-Time scale. Wade is better than Carter right now as well. As for Pierce, it's a tossup. And what does Vince's dunking have to do with anything? It's completely irrelevant.

[Noob Saibot]

Or, if you don't like that term, a more fitting one would be to say, "Contract-Year Player," because he killed like he was supposed to during his contract year with Toronto, and after that, he really played weak in terms of what he was capable of doing. His averages went down (to 15.9 ppg, that's absolutely rediculous), he complained, and while proving not to be durable, he hid behind his knee injuries, missing a lot of games, in comparison to Iverson, who played crutial Sixers games with a broken tailbone, just to name one in many injuries in his prime. Due to his lack of respect for his team, skyrocketing to a higher scoring average almost doubling what he did in Toronto in the same season, he has little to no sense for real greatness. Why would you take him over a grid-iron all-star player like Zo? Because of one dunk? That's shallow, man. I'd definately take him over Manu, Horry, and maybe Dirk, too, but he's no equal to AI or Wade, maybe T-Mac and Pierce

For a soft guy, Vince is still pretty good. The injuries only made it worse forr Vince. So he didn't wanna play for Toronto, that's nothing new. T-Mac didn't wanna play for Toronto and later for Orlando cuz he wanted to be a star. AI isn't a practice player. Now AI plays for the Nuggets cuz he can't win. Steve Francis sat out games in Orlando. You act like Vince's the only man in the league to quit on his team cuz they sucked. Just get over it like i did. I forgive em.

[-primetime-]

Joe Dumars

[IGOTGAME]

This is a greatest list right???Accomplishments matter, winning matters...

Ginobili is winning personified...Check all the Euroleague titles, Check the Olympics...Check the Spurs...

He does what it takes to win and is a fierce competitor... I would take prime Ginobili over Vince because both are second options but Manu has proven at least he is a winner...Vince hates the idea of leading and shrinks up when it matters in the playoffs...Manu is total opposite..

Manu>Wince

case closed

[dawsey6]

For a soft guy, Vince is still pretty good. The injuries only made it worse forr Vince. So he didn't wanna play for Toronto, that's nothing new. T-Mac didn't wanna play for Toronto and later for Orlando cuz he wanted to be a star. AI isn't a practice player. Now AI plays for the Nuggets cuz he can't win. Steve Francis sat out games in Orlando. You act like Vince's the only man in the league to quit on his team cuz they sucked. Just get over it like i did. I forgive em.

Like I said before, he's was as good as he was because he was that incredibly gifted an athlete. To not want to play for Toronto isn't my problem with the guy. Of course it's common for a superstar to not want to play for a bad team. My problem is that if he wanted to be traded, the least he could do is live up to his excepations as a player until he did. He didn't live up to his name according to his great talent, (AI didn't have a love to practice, and that's pretty damn bad, but at least he knew how to play in the games, in spite of it. If you look from a perspective that wasn't so wrapped by the media, with Carter playing the way he did during those later Toronto years, do you think he practiced any better than AI? He reflected neglecting the best part of his game: getting to the rim) according to his team, and, from a business standpoint, according to his $94 million contract. That's the difference between him and T-Mac, KG, AI, Kobe, and so forth. At least they put up the number they are excepted to in lue of a trade demand. Being one of the most gifted players in history and putting up Kerry Kittles's numbers is inexcusable however you look at it. Furthermore, Steve Francis is not a great player, period.

[AirGordon7]

Reggie Miller

[Noob Saibot]

Like I said before, he's was as good as he was because he was that incredibly gifted an athlete. To not want to play for Toronto isn't my problem with the guy. Of course it's common for a superstar to not want to play for a bad team. My problem is that if he wanted to be traded, the least he could do is live up to his excepations as a player until he did. He didn't live up to his name according to his great talent, (AI didn't have a love to practice, and that's pretty damn bad, but at least he knew how to play in the games, in spite of it. If you look from a perspective that wasn't so wrapped by the media, with Carter playing the way he did during those later Toronto years, do you think he practiced any better than AI? He reflected neglecting the best part of his game: getting to the rim) according to his team, and, from a business standpoint, according to his $94 million contract. That's the difference between him and T-Mac, KG, AI, Kobe, and so forth. At least they put up the number they are excepted to in lue of a trade demand. Being one of the most gifted players in history and putting up Kerry Kittles's numbers is inexcusable however you look at it. Furthermore, Steve Francis is not a great player, period.

You make some good points. I guess the lesson here is that not every great player is gonna play like a legendary player. The same can be said for Kobe's case. Kobe publicy tells us he wants out of the LA Lakers, and we all know Kobe isn't going anywhere, like it or not.

[mhg88]

:roll:

T-Mac, the guy who can't even get out the first round? The list is downright hilarious now. F*ck it, my vote is for Dwyane Wade. :oldlol: At least he has a ring and a Finals MVP

[Richie2k6]

For a soft guy, Vince is still pretty good. The injuries only made it worse forr Vince. So he didn't wanna play for Toronto, that's nothing new. T-Mac didn't wanna play for Toronto and later for Orlando cuz he wanted to be a star. AI isn't a practice player. Now AI plays for the Nuggets cuz he can't win. Steve Francis sat out games in Orlando. You act like Vince's the only man in the league to quit on his team cuz they sucked. Just get over it like i did. I forgive em.
Injuries? The only years Carter didn't play a legitimate amount of games was his rookie year, 2002 and 2003. Injuries haven't ruined his career at all. Unless you want to count a bruise to his pinky that made him sit out for a while. Tracy McGrady was a star on Orlando, get your facts straight. He was an All-Star, All-NBA Player, he just couldn't win. Iverson can win, and is a practice player. By the way, the fans of Toronto will never forgive him. In fact, he's hated in Toronto. Severely. And the Raptors didn't suck. Some of their playoff years:

2001-02 NBA 42-40 3rd, Central Division Lost East Conf 1st Rd
2000-01 NBA 47-35 2nd, Central Division Lost East Conf Semis
1999-00 NBA 45-37 3rd, Central Division Lost East Conf 1st Rd

The bolded 2000-2001 year was the year Carter missed the 3 pointer in Game 7 that would have sent the Raptors to the Conference Finals. Also the game Iverson dished out 17 assists. The Raptors didn't suck back then at all. Carter, McGrady, Willis, Oakley, Bogues, Christie, Williams, Curry, Peterson. That's a pretty decent team.

[Optimus Prime]

Give it up Richie. The kids with T-Mac and VC posters on their walls have taken over this poll.


Injuries? The only years Carter didn't play a legitimate amount of games was his rookie year, 2002 and 2003. Injuries haven't ruined his career at all. Unless you want to count a bruise to his pinky that made him sit out for a while. Tracy McGrady was a star on Orlando, get your facts straight. He was an All-Star, All-NBA Player, he just couldn't win. Iverson can win, and is a practice player. By the way, the fans of Toronto will never forgive him. In fact, he's hated in Toronto. Severely. And the Raptors didn't suck. Some of their playoff years:

2001-02 NBA 42-40 3rd, Central Division Lost East Conf 1st Rd
2000-01 NBA 47-35 2nd, Central Division Lost East Conf Semis
1999-00 NBA 45-37 3rd, Central Division Lost East Conf 1st Rd

The bolded 2000-2001 year was the year Carter missed the 3 pointer in Game 7 that would have sent the Raptors to the Conference Finals. Also the game Iverson dished out 17 assists. The Raptors didn't suck back then at all. Carter, McGrady, Willis, Oakley, Bogues, Christie, Williams, Curry, Peterson. That's a pretty decent team.

[L.Kizzle]

T-Mac beaches.

[Jimmy2k8]

I remember these topics. I remember when people started to think Dirk deserved a spot before Iverson did. :oldlol:

[dhenk]

I remember these topics. I remember when people started to think Dirk deserved a spot before Iverson did. :oldlol:

I remember that AI went in at #31..:hammerhead:

[Jimmy2k8]

I remember that AI went in at #31..:hammerhead:



And Kobe at 24 and Nash at 49 or 50.

[L.Kizzle]

:applause: