Former NBA Ref says "Jordan's push off was an offensive foul..."

[MaxFly]

August 17, 2007 -- The former head of the NBA referees union and a league official for 26 years yesterday said rogue referee Tim Donaghy was able to slip through the cracks because refereeing has gotten worse and cited the final shot of Michael Jordan's Chicago Bulls career as an example where a player's reputation prevented a proper call.

Mike Mathis, who retired in 2001, said Donaghy's guilty plea in federal court to betting on games he officiated and supplying inside information to mob affiliates, came as "a stick of dynamite" to the league. But Mathis said, "another stick of dynamite should be utilized (to) clean the entire officiating office and start from scratch."

Mathis, who had been snared in the NBA officials' airline ticket scandal in the late 1990's, has been loudly critical of NBA officiating. Mathis charged too many supervisors are unqualified and that referees are hired based on who, not what, they know.

Though angrily denouncing Donaghy's actions, Mathis referenced the pivotal shot in Game 6 of the 1998 Finals by Jordan against the Utah Jazz that gave the Bulls their sixth and final championship in the Jordan era. Many observers maintain Jordan committed an offensive foul, but it was not called because of Jordan's stature and reputation.

"Refereeing has gone downhill," said Mathis, who runs the Mathis Foundation that works with and supplies scholarships for foster kids in Cincinnati. "Remember when Jordan hit that winning shot? I'm going to give you exactly what the commentators said: 'What a great move by Michael.' Was that a great move or was that an offensive foul? There was no question it was a push-off. No buts about it. The only buts you can have is, 'Well, it was Michael Jordan.' That was a defining moment.

"The video tape would never lie," Mathis said. "Here's what could have happened. The referee makes the call and it's, 'No, no. How could he do that? It was Michael Jordan.' "

If what Mathis called "funny stuff" went on in games Donaghy worked, it likely went unnoticed because of the level officiating has hit.

"(We) accept unbelievable, mediocre and bad officiating," Mathis said. "The commentator says, 'He must have seen something we didn't.' No, he didn't. It's either he's guessing, he's incompetent or there's some funny stuff going on."

Donaghy admitted to federal officials that he often supplied inside information to gamblers, alerting them to what referees were working particular games. He said he was aware how some referees interacted with certain players.

"The first thing I went through was shock," Mathis said when he learned of Donaghy's transgressions. "Then I got angry. Then I said, 'What caused this?' I'm not talking about the gambling, I'm talking about the deterioration of the refereeing that has allowed this to go undetected. . . . If he was doing the funny stuff, I'm not saying he would have been caught but we might have had a chance, because all of a sudden he's standing out by calling all these calls."

Uh oh...

FORMER NBA REF BLASTS OFFICIATING (http://www.nypost.com/seven/08172007/sports/former_nba_ref_blasts_officiating_sports_fred_kerb er.htm)

[brwnman]

yep, I thought it was well known...

[MaxFly]

I think it's arguable, but this is the first time I've heard a ref say something like this.

[thenextgreatbigman]

in before this turns into kobe vs jordan

[Hardtop Hero]

In my opinion, it depends on what angle you look at it from. When you look at it from the front angle, it looks like a push off. However, when you look at it from the side, it appears to be a light touch and that Russell fell down more because his momentum was heading one way and Jordan pulled back so quick that he kept going.

I think the "push off" is overstated. There was light contact, but not enough to call an offensive foul.

[vert48]

In my opinion, it depends on what angle you look at it from. When you look at it from the front angle, it looks like a push off. However, when you look at it from the side, it appears to be a light touch and that Russell fell down more because his momentum was heading one way and Jordan pulled back so quick that he kept going.

I think the "push off" is overstated. There was light contact, but not enough to call an offensive foul.
... and your favorite player is?

[LBJ 4 MVP]

I think it was an offensive foul, but Jordan got away with it because he's Michael Jordan. Just like Bron and Wade get away with their travel's.

[skillswithaz]

in before this turns into kobe vs jordan
uh oh...umm

"Well if Kobe had taken a shot like that, they would've called him for an offensive foul and suspended him for game 7 because it was unnatural reaction."

[StroShow4]

a push off foul isnt gonna get called in that situation, period.. they are going to let the players play because there would be alot bigger issue if they had called it.. everyone would be complaining about how the refs decided the game and not the players.

[Bigboi450]

When a player's momentum is carrying them one way it only takes a light shove in the same direction to keep the player going that way. It looked as though Russell could have recovered both times '97 & '98 but Jordan not only gained the advantage of an extra second or so but he also gained a bit of leverage to change direction. Either way they were some of the greatest moments in sports history 'cause he made the shot both times.

Reggie got away with it too but he was so weak he had to use two hands.

[Agent_Zero]

No idea how MJ's pushoff was like. Was he more aggressive or was it just normal? Any links?

[MaxFly]

No idea how MJ's pushoff was like. Was he more aggressive or was it just normal? Any links?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0XnPnJJJhKo

[Agent_Zero]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0XnPnJJJhKo


That looks like a foul to me. I don't think the refs would have been fair in calling that back then. Now, maybe. Star treatment could be the answer as well.

[gts]

a push off foul isnt gonna get called in that situation, period.. they are going to let the players play because there would be alot bigger issue if they had called it.. everyone would be complaining about how the refs decided the game and not the players.
not disagreeing with you but that statement illustrates how bad the thinking is in the NBA now...
you say people would be upset because an official decided the end of a game correct? but in truth, it's the player who committed the foul that has actually decided the outcome of the game, don't blame the ref for doing whats right...
but the mentality has become don't let the refs define the outcome so they swallow their whistles... but in essence they are still defing the outcome of a game because they allow a team to a cheat the rules and get away with it, only this way the wrong team wins...

it will be fun to see what all this amounts to this coming season...will the star treatment be adjusted to be more fair? with the high profile rookies coming in it would be nice to see young players get a fair shake

[White Chocolate]

Looks like two fouls to me. The one where he steals the ball, as well as the shot.

[Carbine]

I don't believe it was a push-off in the sence that without the push, he wouldn't have gotten enough space to shoot the exact same jumper.

I think he used Russell' thigh/leg as more of a ballace assist. It's arguable, of course, but to me that wasn't a push-off that warrented an offensive foul in that situation.

[Soundwave]

That's not a foul you guys are just too used to today's p*ssy-fied NBA where every damn little thing is a foul and every 2-guard relies on the refs to bail them out.

Look at this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IlNnLXBnMfM

Reggie Miller *clearly* pushes off Jordan there, it's a small little push, but a full on, both forearms shove into the chest that sends Jordan flying back ... no foul call.

You don't call touch falls in clutch situations, the players should decide the game.

[Rockets(T-mac)]

Yeah I don't like this whole All Star calls stuff it's BS. Call the game the way it is. If you are a great player than it wouldn't matter.

[Kobe24]

Is this a foul? (http://youtube.com/watch?v=HvdcDbcZ5eg)

[RainierBeachPoet]

regarding the play, bryon russell said:

"I've had referees come up to me and say they would have made the call , but who was going to call a push-off at that time on the greatest player to ever play the game? That night, it just felt like they werent going to let us win"


he was asserting that sentimentality played a role in that the refs intuitively knew the world wanted a hollywood ending (from araton)

Crashing the Borders by Harvey Araton

[MaxFly]

regarding the play, bryon russell said:

"I've had referees come up to me and say they would have made the call , but who was going to call a push-off at that time on the greatest player to ever play the game? That night, it just felt like they werent going to let us win"


he was asserting that sentimentality played a role in that the refs intuitively knew the world wanted a hollywood ending (from araton)

Crashing the Borders by Harvey Araton

While that is his opinion, you never want players to feel that way. :confusedshrug:

[Soundwave]

Russell is full of crap ... he's 6'7 200-pound man and goes flying like a rag doll from a little contact? He slipped himself on the floor to boot.

The Jazz lost because they didn't deserve to win. Karl Malone chokes *again* in the clutch by just dangling the ball out there for anyone to steal it.

They had Pippen hobbling around like an arthritic old man and no other Bulls but Jordan really playing well in '98 and still could not get the job done.

On top of the fact IMO it's pretty obvious some over zealous Jazz fans/Utah citizens gave Jordan food poisoning in 1997. He shows up to Utah for a pivotal game and "mysteriously" gets an extremely violent case of food poisoning after eating some hotel food .... yeah ... that's not suspicious at all.

I have zero symphathy for the Jazz. They had ample oppurtunities/lucky breaks in 97 and 98 to win and still blew it.

In the clutch you do not call every little damn touch foul, there is some contact allowed (on both ends). Look at Reggie Miller shoving Jordan very clearly in the same 1998 playoffs .... no foul on Reggie. THAT is a push off ... that was far more direct contact than Jordan/Russell.

[Rockets(T-mac)]

Is this a foul? (http://youtube.com/watch?v=HvdcDbcZ5eg)
No not really. Roy embellished a bit.

[kentatm]

a push off foul isnt gonna get called in that situation, period.. they are going to let the players play because there would be alot bigger issue if they had called it.. everyone would be complaining about how the refs decided the game and not the players.


then why was Dirk called for blocking when Wade stiff armed him in the last minute of Game 6?

The refs are simply too inconsistent to defend them. You can't say a foul is not a foul b/c its late in the game and to let the players play and you can't call one thing on one side and then ignore the exact same crap on the other end. Thats what NBA refs do and thats why everyone says they suck ass. Stern needs to get his head out of his ass and fix this. But he wont. He is too prideful to admit Cuban has been right all along that the refs are bad.

[ThaRegul8r]

regarding the play, bryon russell said:

"I've had referees come up to me and say they would have made the call , but who was going to call a push-off at that time on the greatest player to ever play the game? That night, it just felt like they werent going to let us win"


he was asserting that sentimentality played a role in that the refs intuitively knew the world wanted a hollywood ending (from araton)

Crashing the Borders by Harvey Araton

Anyone other than me also remember Howard Eisley's three-pointer at the end of the first half which was waved off, but which should've counted earlier that very same game?

[Soundwave]

Anyone other than me also remember Howard Eisley's three-pointer at the end of the first half which was waved off, but which should've counted earlier that very same game?

This type of stuff happens in every ... single ... basketball game though. It happens in baseball, it happens in hockey, it happens in football, etc. etc. if you sit back afterwards and review every single play in slo-motion after the fact, sure you can probably find plays in every game that have missed calls. Odds are there were calls that went against the Bulls also.

For the Jazz to cry conspiracy is laughable. They had many lucky breaks and bounces in both the 1997 and 1998 Finals and could not seal the deal.

The Jordan push was incidental contact at best, even in a regular season game in the 1st quarter there's a pretty fair chance that would not have been called. Looking at the play, Russell was already off-balance and scrambling.

If you want to a clear, unmistakable push off look at Reggie Miller vs. Jordan in the 1998 ECF just a few weeks prior.

[HollaBolla]

it was on offensive foul but MJ owns the NBA during that time so who would complain, anybody who thinks its not knows nothing about hoops.

[D-Fence]

Officiating of NBA games has to have an overhaul after the Donaghy scandal. For there to be consistency, it would be preferable if NBA refs didn't swallow their whistles in the closing minutes or a game. A ref will have to draw the line at some point anyhow. Bruce Bowen's foul on LeBron James' 3 point attempt in the Finals is a good example. That was clearly a foul at any other point in the game. But if refs aren't calling these touch fouls, why are they calling others at the end of close games in the playoffs.

Another play involving Bruce Bowen comes to my mind. When he was called for a foul while guarding Dirk Nowitzki during the 2006 playoffs. The one where Bowen yelled at David Stern "This is terrible!" That's a touchy foul to call at the end of a close playoff game. And there have been numerous others.

Anyhow, there's a lot of inconistency. There always will be some because it is a difficult job. But they can definitely improve things.

There probably is some star treatment, too. Allen Iverson palming the ball during his crossover is a good example. It's not a conspiracy, though. Great players get this sort of subconscious treatment on things they do well. But refs need to try to counteract this natural tendecy.

[Soundwave]

LOL, looking at it again, there isn't even a pushing motion on Jordan's part. It was some contact with Jordan stopping on Russell's butt (lol), but Russell slipped on his own. Russell was already beat on the play, the moment you turn your body like that, you have to stop to face up again.

The Jazz were stupid for not double teaming in that situation anyway, 1-on-1, did they seriously think Russell was going to be able to stop Jordan from getting a shot off? In a 1-on-1 situation, lets face it, Jordan is able to get his shot off just about against anyone, and doubly stupid to the Jazz for basically giving Jordan the entire middle of the floor to work with.

That's not a foul, if you're going to call that, you have to call basically any type of physical contact, which is ridiculous.

[Loki]

I'll just repost several posts on this that I made on another board a couple of weeks ago since I don't feel like wasting more time. Hopefully people can grasp the context of the remarks I was replying to without seeing them:





Watch the play from the normal game angle at normal speed and anyone with an intuitive understanding of physics and momentum can see that whatever Jordan did was most certainly not responsible for Russell's reaction. Jordan had his inner wrist on Russell's lower butt for a whole 1 second -- he had neither the angle (of pressure applied) nor the time necessary to generate the force it would take to send a 220 pound man flying, unless Jordan is the world's strongest man. Add to that the fact that after Jordan removed his hand Russell still took another step and then fell, and it doesn't add up.


Honestly, I defy anyone who has played ball at a high level (most of whom have an intuitive sense of momentum/natural physics) to watch that play from the normal game angle at normal speed and tell me that Jordan's placing his hand on Russell was responsible for the fall. Go ahead and tell me.


It's bogus. Yeah, when you watch the super slow-mo replay, where it looks like Jordan's hand is on Russell's behind for a good 10 seconds (which would be necessary to generate the force needed to push a man of Russell's size from that angle), it may seem that way, but no. Just no.


The reason your fraction-of-a-second punch "works" (i.e., can move a large mass) and Jordan's inner wrist touch doesn't is because you are generating a far greater impulse. Impulse, the integral of a force with respect to time, can be increased by increasing the duration of applied force or increasing the force (measured in Newtons) itself. When you punch someone, you're doing the latter -- increasing the force applied.

You're imparting a far greater force and therefore generating a far greater impulse despite a lesser duration of contact. That's why you can move someone in a small amount of time and Jordan couldn't have.


Maybe if Jordan wound up and swung and followed through, yeah, but that's not what he did. In fact, Jordan's hand never even came more than halfway across his own body, which is a further indictment of the "push-off" theory. I'll let you try to figure out why -- I'm not here to teach.



Again, I'd venture to guess that anyone who has played ball at a high level would be able to tell that there's no way Jordan generated the force necessary to cause that reaction in the manner it occurred. I say this because high-level ball players have an intuitive understanding of natural physics and momentum gained from years of observing and interacting with other moving bodies.


Also, with respect to the final point, note that Russell still took another step after Jordan removed his hand and only then lost his balance. Russell's center of mass was still directly above his legs (not out in front of him, which is what caused him to fall) when Jordan removed his hand. So unless Jordan can not only generate tremendous force with his inner wrist in one second's time, but also then get all Jedi and continue imparting that force after he's removed his hand, then his "push" wasn't responsible for Russell's reaction.


When did I ever say that? Jordan and many players give the pat on the butt to make sure that they've cleared the offensive player on a change of direction move. His hand was obviously there -- how could one deny that? What I deny is that he could have posibly imparted enough force to cause the reaction we witnessed.



Yet the upper half of his hand isn't cupped inward as one would expect if one were trying to exert maximum force. His fingers are loose and pointed outward. If you're pushing something with the face of your hand, don't you try to place your hand flush on the surface and then push with every part of your hand rather than trying to push with only the bottom half of your hand and inner wrist?


So Jordan not only exerted a huge force on Russell in one second or less, he did so without his arm/hand crossing more than a third of the way across his own body (as would be necessary to generate the requisite force), and did it with only 40-60% of his hand exerting said force. He also was able to do this despite his hand being below Russell's center of mass. Michael Jordan: World's Strongest Man.

[eliteballer]

:oldlol: LOCO's desperate. Talking about "intuitive sense of physics":roll: Herb. Russell fell AFTER Jordan made contact. As for your whole "Jordan not having enough time/force" theory, when the player is ALREADY MOVING AT GREAT SPEED like Russell was during an NBA game, it's A LOT EASIER to knock them off balance/effect their momentum.

[Loki]

Oh wow, it's an eliteballer sighting! Eveyone wave at eliteballer. "Hi eliteballer."

You can crawl back in your hole now. I know of what I speak. I'd like to imagine that anyone who's played ball at a high level has this intuitive grasp of what moving bodies can and cannot do, but perhaps I overestimate people's intelligence.

[bleedinpurpleTwo]

Only a retard would say that it was anything but pushing off. It was obvious.
BUT, as Russell himself graciously said, "it was not a foul because they did not call it."

oh, and it was one of those down-to-the-last-second situations where refs are taught to swallow the whistle.

[eliteballer]

You don't know jack shiet, otherwise you would have a retort. Russell's body already contorted and moving at great speed=easy to knock off balance. Your theory=shot:pimp:

[crisoner]

Look like a foul to me.

But the plays history....Jordan won.

[RidonKs]

Kobe wouldn't have pushed off.

[TheHonestTruth]

Jordan got away with too much. That ref spoke the truth. Consequently, expect his dead body floating somewhere, courtesy of David Stern.

[Kblaze8855]

Of course it was a foul. I cant believe this is even discussed these days. Like 99% of the sports world knew it was a foul the first time they saw a replay.

It happens. Jordan himself implied it was not only a foul but an intentional foul at that calling attention to how veteran tricks get players by when the issue of that play was brought up in an interview(was a few months ago).

He pushed off simple and plain. I didnt care then I dont care now. Wasnt the first time a guy pushed off on a big shot. Reggie rushed off MJ to make the game winner in the ECF one year.

[Loki]

I honestly can't believe that anyone who watches that play at normal speed from the normal game angle (as opposed to super slow-mo from behind Jordan's back) can think that the supposed "push" is what caused that reaction. Especially in light of the points I raised on the previous page.

And I always wonder why people harp on it so much when Reggie's two-handed hard push of Jordan to clear space for the game-winner in the ECF that year was so much more blatant.

[White Chocolate]

Reggie rushed off MJ to make the game winner in the ECF one year.


Ironically, it was the same year.

[EricForman]

So I read Agent Zero Hibachi's post saying "I have no idea what the pushoff was like, can someone provide me with a link?"

Which I immediate assume was a sarcastic joke.

Then I saw MaxFly reply with an actual link, and I was thinking "come on Max you actually gonna fell for that?"

Then Agent Zero actually comes back with a legit reply, so I guess he really hadn't seen the shot before and just saw it for the first time after Max provided the link....

Wow. is this ISH? Or isthis some basketball board on Yahoo Questions page or something?

[Kblaze8855]

Even if the push didnt cause the entire reaction...the push existed. It was a foul. Jordan himself wouldnt claim these days that he didnt push him.

[RidonKs]

Haha, I thought the same thing. He's pretty young though, grade 9 or something. Still, I honestly have trouble imagining someone being on a basketball messageboard (a lot in this situation) and not having seen that shot.

[Lebron23]

If Lebron James and Dwayne Wade are the one who hit that shot after pushing B. Russell most people here in PEX would go on strike. But at the end of the day it was Michael " Freakin" Jordan greatest player of all time and the man who brought millions and prestige in David Stern's NBA.

That is what you call as a facking Double Standard i hope someday it will never happen in an NBA Finals.


J- Whistle > D-Whistle and Bron Whistle

[brantonli]

Unless we've got some amazing time machine and a computer that can calculate the amount of pressure that Michael Jordan's left hand exerted on Byron Russell's body simply by analying the video footage, there will be no clear answer (people have their opinions on which side they think is 100% right but the other side has arguements as well) as to if it was a offensive foul.

Personally, I think it was a bit of both, Jordan pushed off but Russell also flopped trying to get the foul.

Also, that 'blocking' foul on Nowitzki two years ago in the finals was absolute BS, Wade charged his whole shoulder into Nowitzki's chest and it was a clear offensive foul.

[K.Koscik]

Is this a foul? (http://youtube.com/watch?v=HvdcDbcZ5eg)

Hell no Kobe doesn't foul people :rockon:

[EricForman]

If Lebron James and Dwayne Wade are the one who hit that shot after pushing B. Russell most people here in PEX would go on strike. But at the end of the day it was Michael " Freakin" Jordan greatest player of all time and the man who brought millions and prestige in David Stern's NBA.

That is what you call as a facking Double Standard i hope someday it will never happen in an NBA Finals.


J- Whistle > D-Whistle and Bron Whistle


Yeah... dismiss everything else Jordan hsa done because that one play he bent the rules a bit, right?

I don't get why you clowns are crying. That same push off wouldn't be called if it was Wade, Lebron, Iverson, Kobe or even a second rate superstar like Melo. You think Jordan--who's like another 4 levels above all the names I just mentioned--would, or should, get called for that?

Just that year alone, Reggie's push on Jordan was more blatant and t hat wasn't called. Neither was Shaq's bodyblock on Steve Smith in the final minute of game 7 WCF in 2000. Rodman was bodyblocked--as he was attempting a shot--by like two Lakers in the final seconds of game 7 of the 1989 Finals and there was a no call.

[MaxFly]

Haha, I thought the same thing. He's pretty young though, grade 9 or something. Still, I honestly have trouble imagining someone being on a basketball messageboard (a lot in this situation) and not having seen that shot.

Yeah, I was a little surprised as well. This is probably the most talked about call in league history.

[20 Dimes A Game]

No idea how MJ's pushoff was like. Was he more aggressive or was it just normal? Any links?

Seriously?

[20 Dimes A Game]

Look, if the ref doesn't call it, then it's not a foul.

Period.

[Lebron23]

Look, if the ref doesn't call it, then it's not a foul.

Period.


That is a very unreasonable logic this is the proper way to summarize the game.

bad calls and no-calls are part of the game, and it shouldn't be a reason why you lost a game. In fact, you have 48 minutes of chances to win a ball game.

http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s170/Legend_Stopper/sheep.gif http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s170/Legend_Stopper/fish111.gif

[Kobe24]

Look, if the ref doesn't call it, then it's not a foul.

Period.

Wrong. Absolutely wrong. Especially with this Tim Donaghy crap going on.

Example of refs not calling fouls (http://youtube.com/watch?v=w6rl4-7YtXo)

Example of refs favoring superstars (http://youtube.com/watch?v=JZyD3Zjuxvw)

Refs favor superstars. They sometimes overlook fouls or either give ticky tack fouls for no apparent reason.

[sick_brah07]

yeh and bill russels blocks were goal tending who gives a **** if jordan pushed abit its not like he wasnt pushed back alot

[Marikina]

If Lebron James and Dwayne Wade are the one who hit that shot after pushing B. Russell most people here in PEX would go on strike. But at the end of the day it was Michael " Freakin" Jordan greatest player of all time and the man who brought millions and prestige in David Stern's NBA.

That is what you call as a facking Double Standard i hope someday it will never happen in an NBA Finals.


J- Whistle > D-Whistle and Bron Whistle



That is a very unreasonable logic this is the proper way to summarize the game.

bad calls and no-calls are part of the game, and it shouldn't be a reason why you lost a game. In fact, you have 48 minutes of chances to win a ball game.


This guy must the be dumbest rip-off artist, or a patient at a mental institution.

[gts]

you can tell jordans push off was a foul, because loki only made one or two posts defending him....

J/K Loki

[sick_brah07]

http://youtube.com/watch?v=BVTIYTSCG90

watch this and plz tell me how any1 can ahte kobe i no his atitude sucks but i mean come on he can still score so much without getting calls

[Kobe24]

http://youtube.com/watch?v=BVTIYTSCG90

watch this and plz tell me how any1 can ahte kobe i no his atitude sucks but i mean come on he can still score so much without getting calls

Yup. He had a span of 5 games or more in which he had this kind of treatment. It's terrible. I'm disgusted at the 1:51 mark.

[Lebron23]

This guy must the be dumbest rip-off artist, or a patient at a mental institution.


Your mom told me your a dumb midget i have 2 accounts in that forum. By the looks of it you live in Marikina i just live in Makati. Maybe i can kick your @ss before i buried you 6 ft and under.

[Kobe24]

Your mom told me your a dumb midget i have 2 accounts in that forum. By the looks of it you live in Marikina i just live in Makati. Maybe i can kick your @ss before i buried you 6 ft and under.

You're the reason why MLH wants to leave this forum. :applause:

[Lebron23]

You're the reason why MLH wants to leave this forum. :applause:


As usual most Filipinos are full of $hit especially those guys who spend their time insulting other poster.

Speaking of MLH8, why would he be sensitive his friend Matthius is one of the reason i do not want to post in the Cavaliers forum.

People who insult other people are what you called as jerk. In Short if you do not want to be insulted ina forum try acting like a mature person.

Now you see the guy chicken out after i proven him wrong. Typical Filipino attitude running out after proven he got humiliated.

[EricForman]

wow this thread died quick.

[kentatm]

Wrong. Absolutely wrong. Especially with this Tim Donaghy crap going on.

Example of refs not calling fouls (http://youtube.com/watch?v=w6rl4-7YtXo)

Example of refs favoring superstars (http://youtube.com/watch?v=BVTIYTSCG90)

Refs favor superstars. They sometimes overlook fouls or either give ticky tack fouls for no apparent reason.


i dont see how anyone could look at those two links and not come to the conclusion that NBA refs are pathetic.

[MaxFly]

i dont see how anyone could look at those two links and not come to the conclusion that NBA refs are pathetic.

Meh... there was a thread about those games, and people defended each of those calls/non-calls as correct or inconclusive. People will see what they want to see... same with the Jordan play. A few Jordan fans will defend it vigorously, a few Jordan ****** will lambast it, and people who are more reasonable will fall somewhere in the middle.

The interesting thing is that there is at least one ref who officiated in the league who believes it was a foul. Where as this was a fan driven claim before, at the very least, it can no longer be attributed to just fans, whether you believe the play was a foul or not. :confusedshrug:

[MaxFly]

i dont see how anyone could look at those two links and not come to the conclusion that NBA refs are pathetic.

Lol, and reading some of the responses, it seems that some of those who posted on youtube post on ISH as well...


there's no fouls any where on this video....Kobe just needs to toughen up and stop being a little girl!!!


its about time they don't call ***** fouls for kobe...he gets pampered so much in the nba. its a relief to finally see the refs call normal officiating towards kobe


psh, kobe bryant is a joke he deserves ths every game. if u watch at 4:51, kobe pushes murray with the hand he didnt slap skin with. a lot of these so called bad calls could go the other way. a lot of times bryant was charging, thats y they dont call them, because he get s fouled and the refs miss it and then he runs over players so it equals out

[Marikina]

Your mom told me your a dumb midget i have 2 accounts in that forum. By the looks of it you live in Marikina i just live in Makati. Maybe i can kick your @ss before i buried you 6 ft and under.

You just admitted to being two posters that argue two different and conflicting arguments, then using both arguments as a third poster, and I'M "dumb"?

And "your mom told me..."? "I'll kick your ass"? Please tell me that you can come up with something that's not dated.

[Lebron23]

You just admitted to being two posters that argue two different and conflicting arguments, then using both arguments as a third poster, and I'M "dumb"?

And "your mom told me..."? "I'll kick your ass"? Please tell me that you can come up with something that's not dated.


Who in the blue hell are you? Why would i waste my valuable time arguing with a moron.

I just put you in my ignore lists and END OF Discussion

http://www.greatdreams.com/planes/bush-finger.jpg

[EricForman]

Who in the blue hell are you? Why would i waste my valuable time arguing with a moron.

I just put you in my ignore lists and END OF Discussion

http://www.greatdreams.com/planes/bush-finger.jpg

lebron23....

please stop typing with your horrible english. Brantonli and I are both Chinese and our English are fine. Go study a bit before you write again.

[Lebron23]

lebron23....

please stop typing with your horrible english. Brantonli and I are both Chinese and our English are fine. Go study a bit before you write again.


You are not even Full Chinese you little Jabroni ; you actually live in Binondo which basically means that your a Fil-Chinese.

I know most Fil -Chinese in Binondo are Jordan's number one Byeech.

By the way your english is Horrible as your goofy face.

If you want to make a sock account make sure your intelligent enough to critisize your own grammar and your own country.

By the way you even admit that english is not your first languague deuche bag, so why would you grammar police my sentence.

[EricForman]

You are not even Full Chinese you little Jabroni ; you actually live in Binondo which basically means that your a Fil-Chinese.

I know most Fil -Chinese in Binondo are Jordan's number one Byeech.

By the way your english is Horrible as your goofy face.

If you want to make a sock account make sure your intelligent enough to critisize your own grammar and your own country.

By the way you even admit that english is not your first languague deuche bag, so why would you grammar police my sentence.


wait... what? What the hell is a Binondo? I lived in LA but moved back to Hong Kong this year to work, you ass-clown. English isn't my second language, but apparently I've learned enough that I work as a staff writer for an English magazine... it's possible to be fluent in both languages, bro, I know it's a hard concept for you to understand and all...

Seriously, what the hell is a binondo? and what's Fil-chinese? you mean Flips? Are you confusing me with another poster? I've never really talked to you before, but I just thought I'd speak up because you're a weak poster. I think it's funny how you attack someone then next post say "I'm not wasting time with you, you're on my ignore list". Yet you wasted time by attacking them first...:oldlol:

[Lebron23]

wait... what? What the hell is a Binondo? I lived in LA but moved back to Hong Kong this year to work, you ass-clown. English isn't my second language, but apparently I've learned enough that I work as a staff writer for an English magazine... it's possible to be fluent in both languages, bro, I know it's a hard concept for you to understand and all...

Seriously, what the hell is a binondo? and what's Fil-chinese? you mean Flips? Are you confusing me with another poster? I've never really talked to you before, but I just thought I'd speak up because you're a weak poster. I think it's funny how you attack someone then next post say "I'm not wasting time with you, you're on my ignore list". Yet you wasted time by attacking them first...:oldlol:

I do not care if your William Shakespeare or some chinese that act as a Chigger in the internet. Personally, I do not have any problem with the Chinese Community i even defend Yao Ming and the next big thing in Asia Yi Jianlian.

By the way you talk you are one of those poster who like to defend Jordan even though the guy has some weakness in his game. Regarding the topic Bruce Lee, the guy has been stalking me since i registered in this site. I am not dumb enough to realize that this SOB is another sock account of the people who dislike my posts.

Do not talk cheap in the internet and i do not care even if you are editor in chief of the Time Magazine. Respect other people before you even think that you belong in a higher level of mastering the Anglo Saxon Language.

So is that enough Mark Twain???

[MJ23]

ok Mr. Miaggi

[Marikina]

Who in the blue hell are you? Why would i waste my valuable time arguing with a moron.

I just put you in my ignore lists and END OF Discussion

<Snips "Bad-Ass Image">

:oldlol:

A guy pretending to be more than one guy is asking ME who I am? And calls me a "moron", then shows THAT pic?

I must be getting punked here. You can't be THAT bad at this.

[FashionIssues]

I do not care if your William Shakespeare or some chinese that act as a Chigger in the internet. Personally, I do not have any problem with the Chinese Community i even defend Yao Ming and the next big thing in Asia Yi Jianlian.

By the way you talk you are one of those poster who like to defend Jordan even though the guy has some weakness in his game. Regarding the topic Bruce Lee, the guy has been stalking me since i registered in this site. I am not dumb enough to realize that this SOB is another sock account of the people who dislike my posts.

Do not talk cheap in the internet and i do not care even if you are editor in chief of the Time Magazine. Respect other people before you even think that you belong in a higher level of mastering the Anglo Saxon Language.

So is that enough Mark Twain???
totally hilarious. lebron23 on full display:oldlol: :oldlol: :roll:

[MaxFly]

:oldlol:

A guy pretending to be more than one guy is asking ME who I am? And calls me a "moron", then shows THAT pic?

I must be getting punked here. You can't be THAT bad at this.

You're on Hell Date!!!!

[EricForman]

I do not care if your William Shakespeare or some chinese that act as a Chigger in the internet. Personally, I do not have any problem with the Chinese Community i even defend Yao Ming and the next big thing in Asia Yi Jianlian.

By the way you talk you are one of those poster who like to defend Jordan even though the guy has some weakness in his game. Regarding the topic Bruce Lee, the guy has been stalking me since i registered in this site. I am not dumb enough to realize that this SOB is another sock account of the people who dislike my posts.

Do not talk cheap in the internet and i do not care even if you are editor in chief of the Time Magazine. Respect other people before you even think that you belong in a higher level of mastering the Anglo Saxon Language.

So is that enough Mark Twain???

Stock account?

First of all,starting a second username on one message board is dumb. You're not the only one that does it, so you don't have to feel alone.

Second, I've been a regular here dating back to the old board, so I dunno about you thinking this is a stock account.

You know, you've said some pretty ridiculous things... but the biggest one so far is about Jordan having some weaknesses in his game... LOL. The only knock anyone can ever say about his game is he wasn't a great three point shooter, and calling that a "weakness" is stretching it because he wasn't so bad he was a liability.

[Lebron23]

Stock account?

First of all,starting a second username on one message board is dumb. You're not the only one that does it, so you don't have to feel alone.

Second, I've been a regular here dating back to the old board, so I dunno about you thinking this is a stock account.

You're a joke man.


It is a sock account not a stock account ( this is ain't even the Bank) beside i do not want to argue thoughtless things in the internet.

Unless, i was provoke by another poster i am really respectful to all the ISH Veterans that i do not even argue with them.

So moved on and get focused your mind in the topic w/ out discussing some irrelevant things in this site.

Anyway, why would you ge too defensive Marikina Boy is the one who Hijack this thread??

[EricForman]

It is a sock account not a stock account ( this is ain't even the Bank) beside i do not want to argue thoughtless things in the internet.

Unless, i was provoke by another poster i am really respectful to all the ISH Veterans that i do not even argue with them. So moved on and get straight on the topic w/ out some trolls creating some chaos in this site.

Wait a minute.. WHAT?

Hey bro... why don't you type in Chinese... I can read that, I think I can understand you better. HAHAHAHAHAHA

[Lebron23]

Wait a minute.. WHAT?

Hey bro... why don't you type in Chinese... I can read that, I think I can understand you better. HAHAHAHAHAHA

I do not speak Chinese but i like chinese culture.

my favorite meal is the Chinese Noodles.


http://www.fotosearch.com/comp/TGR/TGR144/pma05008.jpg

My Favorite Martial Artists is Bruce Lee

http://www.jkd.com.au/images/Lee%2001.jpg


My Favorite NBA Center is Yao Ming


http://www.smh.com.au/ffximage/2006/01/18/yao_ming_narrowweb__300x528,0.jpg

My Favorite Foreign Actor is Keanu Reeves who is Half Chinese- Half Caucasian American

http://www.fresnobeehive.com/archives/upload/2007/03/keanu-reeves-big.jpg

My Favorite Asian Actress is Ziyi Zhang

http://images.askmen.com/specials/2007_top_99/alt/83-ziyi%20zhang%20-%20Kevin%20Mazur.jpg


So, I can definitely understand you because i can relate to your culture with out speaking any language.

[AtTheDriveIn]

^^

AHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH

:wtf: !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[EricForman]

Then please tell me what your first language is... and thanks for posting easy to read pictures post. Because your last two post... dude you lost me completely, I didn't even know how to reply cause I didnt know what you said.

By the way, I just noticed that picture you posted isn't even Chinese noodles... that's ramen, guy... IT'S JAPANESE.

hahahah

[KWALI]

I don't think Keanu is white + asian I think he's pacific islander or Native etc....

[Lebron23]

I don't think Keanu is white + asian I think he's pacific islander or Native etc....

Actually Keanu's father is Half Chinese and Half Hawaiian while her mother is an English women.




He was born Keanu Charles Reeves on the 2nd of September, 1964, in Beirut. His father Samuel Nowlin Reeves, a part-Chinese part-Hawaiian geologist had married English showgirl Patricia Taylor there, the couple having met after he'd seen her performing at a nightclub. His name, Keanu, is Hawaiian for "cool breeze over the mountains". Well, literally-speaking it means "the coolness", but the fancy extension is forgivable. We all need a little more poetry in our lives, don't we?


http://www.tiscali.co.uk/entertainment/film/biographies/keanu_reeves_biog.html

Matrix Trivia

While the Wachowski brothers were writing the script for the Matrix, their first choice to play Neo was Brandon Lee, son of Bruce Lee. ... you realize that Keannu Reeves reminds me alot of the late Brandon Lee. ( almost look like the same)

http://www.nndb.com/people/962/000031869/brandon-lee-sized.jpg http://www.chinaexpat.com/files/u1/Brandon_Lee.jpg http://home.clara.net/firstuniversal/lor-v.jpg

Brandon Lee's father Bruce Lee is 1/3 German and 3/4 Chinese while her mother is an English girl.

[poeticism707]

Why all the surprise and intrigue?:confusedshrug:

BASKETBALL (AND EVERY OTHER SPORT) IS RIGGED, BOTH ONE WAY AND THE OTHER. :eek:

Once you understand and accept this, there are no surprises.

[MaxFly]

Why all the surprise and intrigue?:confusedshrug:

BASKETBALL (AND EVERY OTHER SPORT) IS RIGGED, BOTH ONE WAY AND THE OTHER. :eek:

Once you understand and accept this, there are no surprises.

You don't really believe that.

[GOBB]

MJ leads the league in no calls! Both offensively and defensively.

[el_locoteee]

uh oh...umm

"Well if Kobe had taken a shot like that, they would've called him for an offensive foul and suspended him for game 7 because it was unnatural reaction."

Not really in 2days nba Russell will get call for hand checking.

[ArbitraryWater]

Bump

My take: It does look like his hand goes forward, but I don't really see any touch... It's more of a slip imo.

I guess you could call one for the idea/movement itself... Like when you try to kick someone but he escapes the foot, you'd still get tossed..

[bagelred]

If you notice, MJ BARELY touched Bryon Russell who was so off balance and out of position that he slipped trying to adjust. That would be weakest offensive foul ever if called....

[ArbitraryWater]

If you notice, MJ BARELY touched Bryon Russell who was so off balance and out of position that he slipped trying to adjust. That would be weakest offensive foul ever if called....

Yea.. what really hurt the game and the Jazz, was their legit 3 pointer waived off, and Harper's (?) 2 that was actually after the shot clock expired, counted.... While the Jazz 3 was still with a second left on the sc.

[jstern]

It was not a foul. When I look at it from the best angle frame by frame all I see is what I call an ass caress, with Jordan's left hand coming down from top to bottom. Not forward pushing.

It would be the softest foul ever if it's a foul. And Jordan would have to have Goku like strength to make such a soft ass caress throw Russell to the floor.

What makes more sense, Russell fell from momentum and desperately trying to get back to try and block Jordan's shot, or that a soft ass tap just sent him flying to the floor. Wouldn't Russell be bitching?

[TheReal Kendall]

I thought it was a foul when I seen it but I guess you could go either way.

[Dro]

Doesn't really matter...Does anybody really doubt that Jordan wouldn't have gotten a shot off regardless and probably would have made it?

[ArbitraryWater]

Doesn't really matter...Does anybody really doubt that Jordan wouldn't have gotten a shot off regardless and probably would have made it?

What do you mean? How can he get off a shot when they call a foul?

[Dro]

What do you mean? How can he get off a shot when they call a foul?
I mean if he didn't use the "alleged" pushoff/crossover and had to use another move instead.....

Not saying Jordan would automatically make every clutch shot because he didn't. But in that situation in that game, I would bet on him making the shot.....

[Nowitness]

Cheating to win, that is the mentality players need.

[TheReal Kendall]

I mean if he didn't use the "alleged" pushoff/crossover and had to use another move instead.....

Not saying Jordan would automatically make every clutch shot because he didn't. But in that situation in that game, I would bet on him making the shot.....

That shot was like a free throw cause there was no way the defender could recover.

He MJ could've made a move but it's not guaranteed to get him as open as that slight "push" did.

http://youtu.be/vdPQ3QxDZ1s

[atljonesbro]

BU... BUT DAT HANDCHECKING DOEEEE :(. Lol offensive players could get away with cheating back then too.

[Roundball_Rock]

Refs would want MJ's autograph yet MJ stans today complain about LeBron getting favorable treatment. :lol

As to the play in question, it may have been a foul but it was the NBA Finals and you want it to be decided on the court so not calling it was the correct thing to do. However, if it was called the Jazz likely win Game 7 which would be in Utah and Pippen was unlikely to be able to play.

[ILLsmak]

Doesn't really matter...Does anybody really doubt that Jordan wouldn't have gotten a shot off regardless and probably would have made it?

i doubt it. lol. I doubt most things that didn't happen. If Jordan didn't push off who knows. Now, do I doubt the bulls win that series? NO.

-Smak

[NBAplayoffs2001]

yep, I thought it was well known...
'

Yeah I agre I love MJ but that was an offensive foul that wasn't called.

[Purch]

I've been saying this for 10 years

[Rubio2Gasol]

Probably. But that was something everyone knows they let go late in the game, for anyone,: not just Jordan.

[played0ut]

SI.com: First question -- Did Michael Jordan push off against Byron Russell?

John Stockton: No question. I'm not saying that because I think it should have been called a foul. I don't. But he shoved him.

SI.com: So he pushed off, but no foul.

Stockton: Agreed.


http://www.si.com/nba/2013/11/11/john-stockton-utah-jazz-nba-hall-fame-interview


If John ****ing Stockton isn't complaining, then everyone else should let it the hell go. :no:















And shit, this happens all the time. Reggie Miller admitted to fouling him and;

"Daring the refs to make the call," - Reggie Miller

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m5drIn3aLco

[joeyjoejoe]

Probably. But that was something everyone knows they let go late in the game, for anyone,: not just Jordan.

no the refs/nba picks and chooses there fouls/nonfouls just look at that cp foul on the westbrook 3 at end of game 5, people usually say its playoffs refs aren't gonna call a foul like that at end of games, was literally one finger on his forearm then cp gets hacked and no call

[juju151111]

Refs would want MJ's autograph yet MJ stans today complain about LeBron getting favorable treatment. :lol

As to the play in question, it may have been a foul but it was the NBA Finals and you want it to be decided on the court so not calling it was the correct thing to do. However, if it was called the Jazz likely win Game 7 which would be in Utah and Pippen was unlikely to be able to play.
Those calls call rarly get call at the end of games. Reggie Miller shoved the living hell out of MY and no call.

[Lebron23]

Jordan was an immovable force.

[Psileas]

It was probably a foul, but not a foul forceful enough to be whistled at that point of the game, unless the refs were fooled by Russell going flying, which might have happened in other situations, but not here. After all, this wasn't the worst decision taken in that game, since the fates of 2 separate baskets changed thanks to the refs, which I don't know how many times has ever happened during the same game, especially in such an important game. This is a collective +5 in favor of Utah being rendered a +0 in 2 calls.

[JellyBean]

In my opinion, it depends on what angle you look at it from. When you look at it from the front angle, it looks like a push off. However, when you look at it from the side, it appears to be a light touch and that Russell fell down more because his momentum was heading one way and Jordan pulled back so quick that he kept going.

I think the "push off" is overstated. There was light contact, but not enough to call an offensive foul.

Thank you. When you look at the angle, depending on where you are, it was a light touch. Now if those late 90s players knew how to flop like the current NBA players, oh that would have been an offensive foul. But again, the 90s era was all about being tough and playing ball, minus Divac :facepalm

[Smook A.]

50 years later...

Some old ass former ref: "I still think Jordan might've fouled Russell in Game 6"

Why the hell are people still talking about this? Its been more than 16 years since it's happened. We can't do anything to change the past. And besides... that was probably the greatest moment in playoff history.

[Angel Face]

The GOAT broke his ankles, it wasn't a push, MJ barely touched his ass. Russell fell most likely due to momentum. It would absurd calling it an offensive foul and Russell didn't even whine about it.

Those last minutes of that game was the most clutch performance ever. GOAT gonna GOAT. :bowdown:

[Asukal]

Look at all the available angles, there is one clearly showing it wasn't a push. It doesn't matter either way tho, no one will call a foul on that play. :confusedshrug:

[DonDadda59]

Why was this bumped 7 years after the fact? :wtf:

Also, even if it was a foul (it wasn't) no ref is going to call that in that situation... even if it's AGAINST Jordan himself (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kbL5U3MUzWA)

[deja vu]

That was a very weak push. My little niece wouldn't even fall down from that push. Russell got murked and lost his balance.

I've seen pushes stronger than that one that were not called. And it shouldn't be called near the end of the game.

[KNOW1EDGE]

They counted the bucket and he won a championship.

Some dumb ref saying he thinks it was a foul is pointless. It wasnt. Get over it.

[dreamwarrior]

That's not a foul you guys are just too used to today's p*ssy-fied NBA where every damn little thing is a foul and every 2-guard relies on the refs to bail them out.

Look at this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IlNnLXBnMfM

Reggie Miller *clearly* pushes off Jordan there, it's a small little push, but a full on, both forearms shove into the chest that sends Jordan flying back ... no foul call.

You don't call touch falls in clutch situations, the players should decide the game.
Jordan never complained about that either.

[Poetry]

The game was just more physical then. That kind of contact wasn't uncommon.

When Zo did this to Pippen...

http://i.dailyherald.com/stories/267/267568.jpg

..it was only called a regular hard foul. Pip shrugged it off without exaggeration and play continued.

[Calabis]

Why was this bumped 7 years after the fact? :wtf:

Also, even if it was a foul (it wasn't) no ref is going to call that in that situation... even if it's AGAINST Jordan himself (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kbL5U3MUzWA)

Exactly!! Series before the finals:oldlol:

[Beastmode88]

The game was just more physical then. That kind of contact wasn't uncommon.

When Zo did this to Pippen...

http://i.dailyherald.com/stories/267/267568.jpg

..it was only called a regular hard foul. Pip shrugged it off without exaggeration and play continued.

Bran would of been hospitalized for the season.

[Calabis]

Jordan never complained about that either.

:applause:

"In 1995, as you saw on the video, yeah, I pushed," Miller said Friday during his Hall of Fame induction speech. "I'm sorry. The ref didn't call it, I went with it."

"Like Magic said, 'By any means necessary,'" he added, offering a similar admission about pushing Michael Jordan in the 1998 playoffs. "So I apologize. I've never said that publicly. So Greg, OK. I shoved you and kept you down."

[atljonesbro]

The game was just more physical then. That kind of contact wasn't uncommon.

When Zo did this to Pippen...

http://i.dailyherald.com/stories/267/267568.jpg

..it was only called a regular hard foul. Pip shrugged it off without exaggeration and play continued.
So players weren't playing defense back then, just attacking players because they weren't skilled enough to play real defense?

[Calabis]

So players weren't playing defense back then, just attacking players because they weren't skilled enough to play real defense?

:facepalm....They played defense dude....just if you started killing them or having your way,..... if you went to the hole, they wanted to let you know.."If you come in here, your going to get hit. "Unlike today's players and their "soccer" style flops.

[Euroleague]

WTF? Of course it was a freaking foul.

[Soundwave]

Basketball's become pussified just like soccer. There was barely any contact there.

[j3lademaster]

He's absolutely right. In a vacuum, that was definitely a foul on MJ and also the reffing is getting worse and worse.

http://i.imgur.com/q30tpOS.gif

Best part is the defender is looking right at Wade and KNOWS there's no call coming. :facepalm

[Angel Face]

So players weren't playing defense back then, just attacking players because they weren't skilled enough to play real defense?

:facepalm

Dafense was more physical back then. Some Flagrant 2 fouls today would be regular fouls back then. Right now you stare at someone you will get a tech. League has gone soft.

[joeyjoejoe]

I like mj best player ever unanimously in my book but if roles were reversed and byron took the shot and pushed off it would of been called an offensive, ya'all know im right

[Angel Face]

I like mj best player ever unanimously in my book but if roles were reversed and byron took the shot and pushed off it would of been called an offensive, ya'all know im right

ORLY?

Then why wasn't Reggile Miller's shoving of Jordan called an offensive foul?

If that little tap of Jordan was called a foul. It would be one of the lamest offensive fouls ever. He barely touched him. Russell fell most likely due to momentum and broken ankles.

[joeyjoejoe]

ORLY?

Then why wasn't Reggile Miller's shoving of Jordan called an offensive foul?

If that little tap of Jordan was called a foul. It would be one of the lamest offensive fouls ever. He barely touched him. Russell fell most likely due to momentum and broken ankles.

I got no horse in this race, you on the other hand lol

[LBJ4MVP23]

It was a push off of course, but no worse than what a lot of players have done on a lot of shots. I dont think its anything too major in that it happens quite often. Officiating really is that bad.

What shocks me more than anything watching MJ vids 20 years later is that man was almost always single covered. We see kobe and LBJ (possibly the most doubled player ive ever seen late in games on the Cavs) have another man sent towards them countless times on game winners, but Jordan seems to have gone 1 on 1 much more frequently.

Any way to check kobe vs LBJ vs MJ on game winning shot attempts/passes and the coverage on those?

[deja vu]

That would have been the weakest offensive foul ever if it was called. :lol

[deja vu]

It was a push off of course, but no worse than what a lot of players have done on a lot of shots. I dont think its anything too major in that it happens quite often. Officiating really is that bad.

What shocks me more than anything watching MJ vids 20 years later is that man was almost always single covered. We see kobe and LBJ (possibly the most doubled player ive ever seen late in games on the Cavs) have another man sent towards them countless times on game winners, but Jordan seems to have gone 1 on 1 much more frequently.

Any way to check kobe vs LBJ vs MJ on game winning shot attempts/passes and the coverage on those?
http://i4.ytimg.com/vi/GnAr4I3-Z48/hqdefault.jpg

[Shih508]

uh oh...umm

"Well if Kobe had taken a shot like that, they would've called him for an offensive foul and suspended him for game 7 because it was unnatural reaction."

LOL go check Lakers vs King game 6. Kobe did worse and got rewarded for FT

[Poetry]

We see kobe and LBJ (possibly the most doubled player ive ever seen late in games on the Cavs) have another man sent towards them countless times on game winners, but Jordan seems to have gone 1 on 1 much more frequently.

Here are MJs game winners.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FMB0pNnHbEg

He shakes or runs into double/triple teams on at least half of them.

LeBron seems to have trouble with double teams in those situations because he doesn't pull the trigger.

Defenders know that he's looking to pass the ball if he can.

Look at what Michael does in these situations. He looks to attack and so he's always got his defenders off balance.

[Poetry]

Here are LeBron's game winners:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CEP3bfZixE8

He sees mostly single coverage on these attempts.

I'd almost forgotten how many he's hit. Things seem to go well for him when he doesn't look to pass.

[andgar923]

It was a push off of course, but no worse than what a lot of players have done on a lot of shots. I dont think its anything too major in that it happens quite often. Officiating really is that bad.

What shocks me more than anything watching MJ vids 20 years later is that man was almost always single covered. We see kobe and LBJ (possibly the most doubled player ive ever seen late in games on the Cavs) have another man sent towards them countless times on game winners, but Jordan seems to have gone 1 on 1 much more frequently.

Any way to check kobe vs LBJ vs MJ on game winning shot attempts/passes and the coverage on those?
So it's MJ's fault that he has the IQ and ability to read and beat double and triple teams?

Is it also his fault that in some instances coaches are respectful enough to not send a trap immediately?

They fear MJ.

He was always a threat. MJ just happened to usually be better than the defense thrown at him.

[LBJ4MVP23]

Hahaha youre so mad little man.

My point is that while MJ is clearly the best ever I dont believe he faced the defensive attention, even when on crappy teams, that LBJ or kobe have received. However it is only an assumption based on a significant amount of footage and I would love to see the actual results.

However for nearly every Jordan game winner I see that he is 1 v 1, but if you look at a great deal of LBJ or kobe's its generally multiple guys coming and they have to work hard to get single coverage to th 1 v 1. For jordan its pass him the ball, then let him work 1 v 1 because the double never comes.

Again this is based purely on what I have seen, but im sure there are stats to verify or correct my assumption. Now go cry about how he is no longer playing and jerk off to his steakhouse menu homo.

[OldSchoolBBall]

Hahaha youre so mad little man.

My point is that while MJ is clearly the best ever I dont believe he faced the defensive attention, even when on crappy teams, that LBJ or kobe have received. However it is only an assumption based on a significant amount of footage and I would love to see the actual results.

Err, '87-'92 Jordan was the most double teamed perimeter player in history by a good margin.

[Calabis]

Hahaha youre so mad little man.

My point is that while MJ is clearly the best ever I dont believe he faced the defensive attention, even when on crappy teams, that LBJ or kobe have received. However it is only an assumption based on a significant amount of footage and I would love to see the actual results.

However for nearly every Jordan game winner I see that he is 1 v 1, but if you look at a great deal of LBJ or kobe's its generally multiple guys coming and they have to work hard to get single coverage to th 1 v 1. For jordan its pass him the ball, then let him work 1 v 1 because the double never comes.

Again this is based purely on what I have seen, but im sure there are stats to verify or correct my assumption. Now go cry about how he is no longer playing and jerk off to his steakhouse menu homo.

http://x2.fjcdn.com/thumbnails/comments/1.+about+needing+that+exhaust+port+The+second+deat h+star+_04cd9738b1cb0253a9ba8bcda9f56c43.gif

[Angel Face]

Hahaha youre so mad little man.

My point is that while MJ is clearly the best ever I dont believe he faced the defensive attention, even when on crappy teams, that LBJ or kobe have received. However it is only an assumption based on a significant amount of footage and I would love to see the actual results.

However for nearly every Jordan game winner I see that he is 1 v 1, but if you look at a great deal of LBJ or kobe's its generally multiple guys coming and they have to work hard to get single coverage to th 1 v 1. For jordan its pass him the ball, then let him work 1 v 1 because the double never comes.

Again this is based purely on what I have seen, but im sure there are stats to verify or correct my assumption. Now go cry about how he is no longer playing and jerk off to his steakhouse menu homo.

:facepalm

You clearly didn't watch MJ, you're just hating.

[stephanieg]

Jordan got away with a lot of arm grabbing and shoving but if the "push off" was an offensive foul then Jordan has hulk strength, he barely brushed him with his fingers.

[Lebron23]

It was an offensive foul. Jordan was stiff arming, and pushing off his defenders. Stern was on hiis dick 24/7.