Why Chris Bosh will never be a great player

[eliteballer]

[QUOTE]Bosh Gives Up Trying To Gain Weight
October 3, 2007 - 12:23 pm
Toronto Star -
Chris Bosh has given up trying to intentionally gain weight on his 6-foot-10 frame after failing to add much girth despite his best efforts.

"I think for the past two summers I was really concentrating on gaining weight and after I stayed the same weight, I just concentrated on getting stronger,

[i seen hippos]

Give up?! I like Bosh but please...

He said it's more realistic for him to gain muscle, not weight.....are you reading something that I'm not?:confusedshrug:

[Qwyjibo]

Reading comprehension is a very fundamental thing.

[Top_Of_Tha_World]

Give up?! I like Bosh but please...

Fck outta here

[kobedaman24]

He is very skinny for his height.. but still: gaining muscle > gaining weight

[i seen hippos]

And Bosh isn't 6'10". I don't know why some "experts" make that mistake (especially ones from Toronto).

[Rockets(T-mac)]

Did you not read, he is going to get stronger instead. Nothing wrong with that he is doing whats best for him. Not like he didn't try to gain weight.

[Se]

He said it's more realistic for him to gain muscle, not weight.....are you reading something that I'm not?:confusedshrug:

hippos, you're clearly out of your depth in this topic. Chris Bosh would be great if he showed up to camp like Sean May or Eddy Curry, only then can he be a great player.

On a side note, I'd really enjoy it if Bosh took whatever "supplements" Hoffa takes.

[Skywalker]

Kevin Garnett weighed 225 until a couple years ago at 7 feet. How did his career go? Remind me.

[Se]

Kevin Garnett weighed 225 until a couple years ago at 7 feet. How did his career go? Remind me.

Dude sucks, he gets bullied in the post by guys like Jon Bender and Walter McCarty.

[VCDrivesAPorscheToWork]

Kevin Garnett weighed 225 until a couple years ago at 7 feet. How did his career go? Remind me.


first round defeat after first round defeat for many years with one highlight to the WCF.

pending Finals run, but until it happens, can't say anything about it


as for Bosh

one first round defeat. many more to go if your analogy holds

[i seen hippos]

[QUOTE=Se

[Qwyjibo]

first round defeat after first round defeat for many years with one highlight to the WCF.

pending Finals run, but until it happens, can't say anything about it


as for Bosh

one first round defeat. many more to go if your analogy holds

Also being a perennial top 5 or 10 player in the league. It's not Garnett's fault that the Wolves management has been god awful and other than for one year, has failed to put anything of value around him.

[Skywalker]

first round defeat after first round defeat for many years with one highlight to the WCF.

pending Finals run, but until it happens, can't say anything about it

you forgot the first ballot Hall of Famer part

[Se]

The extra fat would help support his Etheopian girl neck. I guess you have a point.

Yes, because the lastthing he needs is his head bobbling off.



You'd think Hoffa would be caught if he took "supplements", but the you realize he sucks so much that Stern would never waste his time.

:oldlol: :applause:

[VCDrivesAPorscheToWork]

Also being a perennial top 5 or 10 player in the league. It's not Garnett's fault that the Wolves management has been god awful and other than for one year, has failed to put anything of value around him.



would it be a correct assessment to say that under the table Joe Smith deal that was busted seriously crippled the Wolves for the entire KG tenure?



anyway, I'm not against Bosh being a great player BTW.


he just needs more experience. I mean comon... team defense or not, you cannot let your primary defender... Jason Collins... get into your head and make you shoot jumpshots

[wang4three]

[QUOTE=Se

[Skywalker]

would it be a correct assessment to say that under the table Joe Smith deal that was busted seriously crippled the Wolves for the entire KG tenure?

Yes it would. They are still struggling to recover from it.

[ihatetimthomas]

not all players need to be huge to be great. KG is a prime example. Bosh is a finesse player and has a huge bball IQ so it makes up for lack of girth. He is fundamentally sound on defending bigs in the post and utilizes his quickness on the offense

[i seen hippos]

W............T..........7[/B]"]F !!!

His ***** is bigger than a size 7...which is crazy considering he's Asian.

[artificial]

sad thing to post an article, comment on it, and then realize you haven't read it.


would it be a correct assessment to say that under the table Joe Smith deal that was busted seriously crippled the Wolves for the entire KG tenure?
I'm still trying to figure out why they did it in the first place.

[VCDrivesAPorscheToWork]

sad thing to post an article, comment on it, and then realize you haven't read it.


I'm still trying to figure out why they did it in the first place.



over the salary cap.


figured they'd sign him to a one year MLE deal or so, then next year, they would give him a big payday and swallow the luxury tax if they have to

[bjtrdff]

Wow, a Vince Carter fan saying Bosh will never be a great player despite stopping to try and bulk up more.

At least Bosh tried every game.


And PS, Cleveland did almost the same thing and didn't get penalized at all. The Boozer was completely villifed for it.

[kwajo]

Wow, a Vince Carter fan saying Bosh will never be a great player despite stopping to try and bulk up more.

At least Bosh tried every game.


And PS, Cleveland did almost the same thing and didn't get penalized at all. The Boozer was completely villifed for it.
^ went too far


Im fine with Bosh saying what he said. He obviously can't gain bulk, so he's going to work on making the weight he does have, be more efficient/potent. I'd be more concerned if we still expected him to play C, but Bargnani seems to be able to more easily gain bulk, so with him manning the post, that allows Bosh to keep his athleticism as an asset without consequence.

[VCDrivesAPorscheToWork]

Wow, a Vince Carter fan saying Bosh will never be a great player despite stopping to try and bulk up more.

At least Bosh tried every game.


And PS, Cleveland did almost the same thing and didn't get penalized at all. The Boozer was completely villifed for it.



you really need to stop reaching for conclusions. in my previous post, I put in a mention of how I do not think Bosh will not be good.

moreover, I was not the one who made an assertion about Bosh not bulking up.

plus, throughout the previous season I have always stressed how good the Raptors team and Chris Bosh is. go check the game threads.


but I do remember your being the number one troll on the Raptors side that pretty much every respectable Raptors poster ignored.

figures

[Se]

Minus the caption cause Ced and I are that gay.

I'm gayer than the picture. Seeing you brought it up (Asian phallus size), what do you think Yao Ming measures in at? He has 7'6" working for him, but being Chinese working against him.

[VCDrivesAPorscheToWork]

[QUOTE=Se

[eliteballer]

:oldlol: @ all of this Canadian trash pouring in. The whole point of adding BULK is so you can bang in the post and hold your ground. Bosh isn't going to get significantly stronger unless he adds weight(which comes with MUSCLE):rolleyes: In the meantime he can keep on dancing around the perimeter.

[Se]

aren't you the one living in Korea? haven't any of your lady friends from secret trysts ever told you anything?

Koreans are the tallest of all Asians, so it wouldn't be an accurate survey. I've seen some sad looking members on my trips to public bath houses (jimjilbang)

[Qwyjibo]

:oldlol: @ all of this Canadian trash pouring in. The whole point of adding BULK is so you can bang in the post and hold your ground. Bosh isn't going to get significantly stronger unless he adds weight(which comes with MUSCLE):rolleyes: In the meantime he can keep on dancing around the perimeter.
Trash or not, at least we can read and understand what articles are saying. All you saw is "OMG Bosh is giving up, what a quitter!".

I'm pretty sure Bosh is getting advice from better trainers than any of us have ever known.

[Valliant13]

It's not like he's decided to go on a starvation diet... he's just accepted he's at the maximum size he can attain given his metabolic rate and the amount of activity he has to engage in.

Should he stop doing cardio and stay home eating lard all day to force his body to put on bulk?

[bomber]

He should gain pack on some muscle its not that hard especially with a lanky ass frame.

He could easily put 10-15 pounds of muscle on his neck alone.

[BrooklynZoo]

how hard is it to gain weight?:hammerhead:

[Richie2k6]

how hard is it to gain weight?:hammerhead:
It depends on your body. Gaining weight isn't just eating...

[RAPSCANWIN]

:oldlol: @ all of this Canadian trash pouring in. The whole point of adding BULK is so you can bang in the post and hold your ground. Bosh isn't going to get significantly stronger unless he adds weight(which comes with MUSCLE):rolleyes: In the meantime he can keep on dancing around the perimeter.

Your really not that smart are you? Could you not read the article and actually understand its message?

Canadian trash pouring in...leave your country and you'll find out real quick who's considered trash in the world.

[i seen hippos]

Eliteballer is Canadian.

[Da KO King]

I would like to see him get a little bigger than 230 but it's not the end of the world.

[kwajo]

As a side note, not all skinny guys have trouble gaining weight. You remember Robert Swift, the scrony little ginger kid in Seattle? Well he's 7'1" 280lbs now. Yeah. It's crazy.

[Y2Gezee]

I'd like to see him get to about 240 of muscle, he should think about taking HGH and hitting the weight room.

[Carbine]

Bosh will never be a truly great player, and it has nothing to do with what he said.

[i seen hippos]

Bosh will never be a truly great player, and it has nothing to do with what he said.

It has to do with your gut feeling.:roll:

In other news, hippos don't care for gut feelings.

[Y2Gezee]

Bosh will never be a truly great player, and it has nothing to do with what he said.

Most likely true

[Carbine]

Gut feeling has very little to do with it. I've seen enough of Bosh play to know a thing or two about him. He's not someone you win championships building around. Is he even on par or better than JO was a few years ago with Indiana when he was in the MVP running? Not really.

Chris Bosh could very well go on and win a few rings, just won't be as the number one guy. Is he really going to get much better than he is now? He's not getting any bigger, taller, quicker, etc.

His skills are already superb, it's not like he's going to go from moderately dominant to extremely dominant because he continues to develop that 15-17 footer he loves to take so much.

You're probably from Toronto.

[i seen hippos]

Gut feeling has very little to do with it. I've seen enough of Bosh play to know a thing or two about him. He's not someone you win championships building around. Is he even on par or better than JO was a few years ago with Indiana when he was in the MVP running? Not really.

Chris Bosh could very well go on and win a few rings, just won't be as the number one guy. Is he really going to get much better than he is now? He's not getting any bigger, taller, quicker, etc.

His skills are already superb, it's not like he's going to go from moderatly dominant to extremely dominant because he develops that 15-17 footer he loves to take so much.

You're probably from Toronto.

I guess Vienna is close to Toronto.:confusedshrug:

[Carbine]

You would have been better off saying you live in Toronto. At least you could use the homer excuse for rating Bosh so highly.

Vienna is rather far away from Toronto. Do you even get to watch the Raptors down there? Not like they are on national television much.

[foutz]

christopher gosh will be great to the point of champion chip victorious

great player is measuered by performance to impress fans to point of interst and point of liking player for achiving victioruis... this is result of champion chip achievement

i can say that gosh can be good if he complete quest of champion chip

he must wait online of connection to boston and of other contenders before his stardom have arisen to limitless talents

[bjtrdff]

Yes, I am clearly a troll with 500+ posts on this board and 3000+ on the old one. Great point sir. You are sage in your VC ass licking wisdom.

Guess what, it doesn't matter if you say 'you don't think Bosh will not be good', you support a thread, and your nick has VC in it. Youre putting yourself out there,especially to Raps fans, you should expect some dissenting opinions.

Bosh: 1 first round defeat in 4 years. VC: 2 2nd round appearances/defeats on 9 years.

We'll talk again in 7 months.

[A.M.G.]

christopher gosh will be great to the point of champion chip victorious

great player is measuered by performance to impress fans to point of interst and point of liking player for achiving victioruis... this is result of champion chip achievement

i can say that gosh can be good if he complete quest of champion chip

he must wait online of connection to boston and of other contenders before his stardom have arisen to limitless talents
:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: F***in priceless!!!

[i seen hippos]

Gut feeling has very little to do with it. I've seen enough of Bosh play to know a thing or two about him. He's not someone you win championships building around. Is he even on par or better than JO was a few years ago with Indiana when he was in the MVP running? Not really.

Chris Bosh could very well go on and win a few rings, just won't be as the number one guy. Is he really going to get much better than he is now? He's not getting any bigger, taller, quicker, etc.

His skills are already superb, it's not like he's going to go from moderately dominant to extremely dominant because he continues to develop that 15-17 footer he loves to take so much.

You're probably from Toronto.

What team would he play on where he's not the best player?

JO a legit MVP candidate....ever?

We all know teams win titles, not players so obviously Bosh can be the best player on a championship team.

Bosh's heart and willingness to learn is enough to believe in him. How can you say he won't get much better when he's improved considerably every year he's been in the league?

[JtotheIzzo]

This is like the tenth 'Bosh will never be great' thread.

Lets be real about this because there are a lot of Raptor ****** and lovers on this page.

Not being able to gain weight isn't all that bad. A lot of NBA guys spent the summer trying to slim down. Guys like Amare and Kobe are at an all time thin.

Bosh has gotten better every year.

The Raptors have improved with him.

Now they're both at an all star level (if a division champ could be considered a 'team all star').

Bosh was crap his first few games with USA last year, he's improved his standing on that team by leaps and bounds.

Why the hate?

[bada bing]

This is like the tenth 'Bosh will never be great' thread.

Lets be real about this because there are a lot of Raptor ****** and lovers on this page.

Not being able to gain weight isn't all that bad. A lot of NBA guys spent the summer trying to slim down. Guys like Amare and Kobe are at an all time thin.

Bosh has gotten better every year.

The Raptors have improved with him.

Now they're both at an all star level (if a division champ could be considered a 'team all star').

Bosh was crap his first few games with USA last year, he's improved his standing on that team by leaps and bounds.

Why the hate?

great points. hard to argue with anything you just said. i would still like to see the people come up with a reply against this post.

[Carbine]

Not being able to gain weight isn't all that bad. A lot of NBA guys spent the summer trying to slim down. Guys like Amare and Kobe are at an all time thin.

It's bad when Bosh, at his current weight, will never be able to dominate the post like the great ones do.

Why are you bringing Amare into this? He's one of the more explosive scorers around the hoop. He's already strong enough to play down there, he's just slimming down to regain some of that explosion pre-injury.

Kobe is slimming down because he wants to be quick. Lets face the truth for a second, he's not typically referred to as a dominating low-post scorer. So his weight has very little impact on his overall post game because he doesn't use the blocks to back people down.

[JtotheIzzo]

It's bad when Bosh, at his current weight, will never be able to dominate the post like the great ones do.

Why are you bringing Amare into this? He's one of the more explosive scorers around the hoop. He's already strong enough to play down there, he's just slimming down to regain some of that explosion pre-injury.

Kobe is slimming down because he wants to be quick. Lets face the truth for a second, he's not typically referred to as a dominating low-post scorer. So his weight has very little impact on his overall post game because he doesn't use the blocks to back people down.

I highlighted those two because I saw them live this summer and was shocked to see their thiness. I also know the trend in fitness these days is looking healthy (ie thin) as oppose to looking buff (ie pumped), and pro athletes (outside of NFL lineman) are buying into it. That was my point. The game is changing (more and more versatility). Quickness and skill trump size these days. Shaq's on the way out and Barkley and Malone have retired.

Why bulk up Bosh and have him be slower, when you could develop his midrange jumper and first step and have him play as a well rounded four man?

Bosh could remain slim and be more of a Garnett. That is a lot more reasonable and in effect better than him trying to emulate some fat ass in the post. Teams dont want their star playing down low all the time, they get too much abuse, falkin Seattle will play Durant at the TWO this year to keep him from getting abused.

Why do you want Bosh to 'dominate the post'? he will never be a true five, let his game be multi-faceted, therein lies his true value.

Slow heavy banger down low, or fleet footed hustler who runs hte floor well, is long on dfense and can hit the mid range shot?

You decide.

[bokes15]

This thread is starting to remind me of the "OMG!! DURANT CAN'T BENCH 185!!!" thread. You people are ridiculous. The amount of weight on a player doesn't determine greatness. In fact, there is a small list of Centers (such as Shaq, Dwight, Curry, etc.. in a league that is becoming more permiter oriented that dominate the paint on a nightly basis. And, some people's body type and metabolism don't allow them to gain weight quickly so it's probably the smarter thing to do for him to gain muscle. Would you say that Eddie Curry is better than Bosh? If so tell me so I can laugh.

[KWALI]

Why is anyone taking that flippant remark seriously.....in the last 40 years how many guys have been teh player champiosnship teams are built around? like 5? WHat Carbine says is statitically true if nothing else.

[LJJ]

I doesn't even matter if he gets any better physically.

The way he played last year, he already looked like a legit franchise player to me. He just needs to play a bit smarter to become one of the premier players in the league.

[Shark]

Give up?! I like Bosh but please...

Bosh is already a great player, so the thread is pointless from the beginning.

[tontoz]

Bosh averaged 22.6/10.7 shooting 50% last season. How much better does he have to get to be considered great?

[Sharas]

the very first premise of the thread is incorrect because bosh IS already a great player

and second, he is not the low post player anyways by skill set. what would be the point of him forcibly gaining weight?

[Carbine]

Quickness and skill trump size these days.

Tell that to the last eight of nine champions who have been led by dominating post play. Thats the key for success in my book.

Chris Bosh is versatile. Chris Bosh is skilled. Chris Bosh is talented. But he plays like a big guard rather than a post player. Not his fault...look at his body frame. What I'm saying is he can't be "great" by being a dirk-knockoff.

I mean you guys classify him as a "post player" but thats just because he's 6'10. Don't bring up Kevin Garnett' name as if that means anything... the only similar thing they have in common is their skin color, their frames and they can stroke the mid-range.

I never got the hype around the guy. He's going to keep getting better? How, exactly? What is he going to add to his game thats going to make him SO much better?

Nothing.

He can only build on the foundation of skills he already has, and he has them all for a 6'10 player. I think the Bosh we seen last year and the Bosh we see 4 years down the road will be typically the same player.

It's not a situation like Dwight were it's obvious he has a ton of room to improve. He's putting down 17/12 without much skill. He has a ton of skill to develop...

Bosh is a nice player. Just not someone you consider elite.

[tontoz]

I mean you guys classify him as a "post player" but thats just because he's 6'10. Don't bring up Kevin Garnett' name as if that means anything...

Bosh scores more inside

http://www.82games.com/0607/06TOR15A.HTM

than KG

http://www.82games.com/0607/06MIN11A.HTM


KG is surely a better defender but don't pretend like KG is a post player.



It's not a situation like Dwight were it's obvious he has a ton of room to improve. He's putting down 17/12 without much skill. He has a ton of skill to develop...



Problem is Howard has played 3 years and his "skills" have shown no sign of developing at all.

[Carbine]

Anybody can dig up stats. What does that prove...that you're awesome at finding stats? Good job. Keep that up.

Wasn't Parker the leading point scorer in the paint last year in the league, or at the very least on his team? Are you going to argue Tim Duncan is inferior to Tony because Tony scores more in the paint?


Problem is Howard has played 3 years and his "skills" have shown no sign of developing at all.

That's why they have an award called "most improved."


KG is surely a better defender but don't pretend like KG is a post player.

Never have - however Garnett' post game is more effective than Bosh'

...and that is saying something.

[Qwyjibo]

Anybody can dig up stats. What does that prove...that you're awesome at finding stats? Good job. Keep that up.
What does that even mean?

Stats show on-court performance in some form. Sure stats need to be put in proper context but you make it sound like they are worthless.

[tontoz]

Wasn't Parker the leading point scorer in the paint last year in the league, or at the very least on his team?

No and no.


That's why they have an award called "most improved."



He wouldn't even win a marginally improved award right now. Other than getting bigger and stronger he hasn't improved at all in 3 seasons.


Never have - however Garnett' post game is more effective than Bosh'

...and that is saying something.


Bosh gets to the rim and the ft line much better than KG. KG is basically a 7 foot jumpshooter. KG's post game is basically just a turnaround j.

[Carbine]

Stats are worthless when thats all you argue with. You going to argue Parker is a more dominant post scorer because he scores more than Tim Duncan in the paint?

Honestly.

Some situations need to be looked at differently and not ne judged by "well the stats prove I'm right" kind of attitude.

[Qwyjibo]

Again, that's why you need context in some situations. But we're not comparing a PG and a PF here.

One thing that might skew it against Garnett is the team around him. He had no competent PG last year to get him the ball in good positions.

[Carbine]

Parker plays the point guard position and has established himself as a potent scorer. Voted by his peers in a 2007 poll as one of the quickest players in the NBA,[29] he often slashes to the basket for a layup or teardrop shot. Despite his relatively small size for a basketball player (6'2"), he led the league in "points in the paint" for a large portion of the 2005-06 NBA season.

From Wikipedia.

So it was two years ago Parker led the team (and league for a long time) in points in the paint. I new it was either last year or the year before.

[tontoz]

You going to argue Parker is a more dominant post scorer because he scores more than Tim Duncan in the paint?



Parker doesn't score inside as much as Bosh let alone Duncan.

And comparing a pg to a pf is just dumb, like your argument that a guy averaging 22/10 shooting 50% isn't elite.

[Carbine]

And comparing a pg to a pf is just dumb, like your argument that a guy averaging 22/10 shooting 50% isn't elite.

It's arguable that he wouldn't be the best player on 50% of the teams in the league. Maybe your defintion of elite is different than mine...it has to be.

[kwajo]

From Wikipedia.

So it was two years ago Parker led the team (and league for a long time) in points in the paint. I new it was either last year or the year before.
Wikipedia also says that Bosh led the league in points in the paint in 2006-2007

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chris_Bosh

http://i20.tinypic.com/124j02w.png

[Carbine]

Kwajo,

all the more reason that going by stats such as that one in this manner is irrelivant.


And comparing a pg to a pf is just dumb, like your argument that a guy averaging 22/10 shooting 50% isn't elite.

I had to quote this twice. Zack Randolph put up 23.6/10 on 47% shooting last year. Is he, or should he, be considerd elite?

He's not in my book.

[tontoz]

I had to quote this twice. Zack Randolph put up 23.6/10 on 47% shooting last year. Is he, or should he, be considerd elite?



No. I wouldn't consider him elite because he is a big liablity defensively, a black hole and put up big numbers on a bad team.

Big numbers on a bad team have to be discounted somewhat.

[bokes15]

[
QUOTE=Carbine]Chris Bosh is versatile. Chris Bosh is skilled. Chris Bosh is talented. But he plays like a big guard rather than a post player. Not his fault...look at his body frame.
That statement in itself makes your rant unneccessary. He is what he is, he can't all of a sudden become Dwight Howard.


What I'm saying is he can't be "great" by being a dirk-knockoff.
You might be the first person to ever call Bosh a "dirk-knockoff" his game is absolutely nothing like Dirk's. Have you ever watched him play?


I never got the hype around the guy. He's going to keep getting better? How, exactly? What is he going to add to his game thats going to make him SO much better? Nothing
:lol: Bosh didn't have ANY hype around him until basically last year when the Raptors won the Atlantic division. And even then, people were saying that the team won by default. Bosh in terms of hype is something like Duncan, no national commercials, big endorsements, he just quietly does his thing and goes for the most part unnoticed.


He can only build on the foundation of skills he already has, and he has them all for a 6'10 player. I think the Bosh we seen last year and the Bosh we see 4 years down the road will be typically the same player.

Bosh. Year #1
11.5ppg 7.4rpg

Year 2
16.9ppg 8.9 rpg

Year 3
22.5ppg 9.2rpg

Year 4
22.6ppg 10.7 rpg

I personally wouldn't mind him solidifying what's working for him. He may not be a big beast in the paint, but as you noted he's not built that way. I saw someone mention Eddie Curry in this thread, but despite his size, is he a 20-10 player? Collins did a nice job on Bosh VCDATPW, but would you prefer a Collins on your team?


It's not a situation like Dwight were it's obvious he has a ton of room to improve. He's putting down 17/12 without much skill. He has a ton of skill to develop...

Bosh is a nice player. Just not someone you consider elite.[/QUOTE]
and you would consider Dwight Howard elite? He has not expanded his game at all in his 3 years in the league. Yes, his scoring numbers have gone up slightly but pretty much everything else he does is the same. I don't know why everyone talks about his sky high potential. He's only a year older than Bosh so age isn't really a factor. And he's not someone who could single handedly take you to a championship either. And my best way to back up that point is to say, do you think that the Spurs current roster without Duncan and with Howard would win a Championship? I rest my case.

[Carbine]

Well, that was a whole lot of pointless jibber jabber.


You might be the first person to ever call Bosh a "dirk-knockoff" his game is absolutely nothing like Dirk's. Have you ever watched him play?

It's true. Both would rather shoot 15-17 foot jumpers when the going gets tough. Both have guard skills. Both can shoot it. Aside from their offensive capabilitys, neither effect the game in a dominating way.

Both lost in the first round.....


Bosh didn't have ANY hype around him until basically last year when the Raptors won the Atlantic division. And even then, people were saying that the team won by default. Bosh in terms of hype is something like Duncan, no national commercials, big endorsements, he just quietly does his thing and goes for the most part unnoticed.

Not talking about media hype... I was referring to ISH.

and you would consider Dwight Howard elite?

:oldlol:

Where did I say he was elite? Thats what I thought. You missed the point.


nd he's not someone who could single handedly take you to a championship either. And my best way to back up that point is to say, do you think that the Spurs current roster without Duncan and with Howard would win a Championship?

We're talking about the best player in basketball for one thing. Could you replace Duncan with anybody and still win a championship? Unlikely.

Maybe five years down the road Dwight will be that guy who developed his skills and becomes that traditional dominant low post player that leads teams to championships.

[rknine15]

Yes, I am clearly a troll with 500+ posts on this board and 3000+ on the old one. Great point sir. You are sage in your VC ass licking wisdom.

Guess what, it doesn't matter if you say 'you don't think Bosh will not be good', you support a thread, and your nick has VC in it. Youre putting yourself out there,especially to Raps fans, you should expect some dissenting opinions.

Bosh: 1 first round defeat in 4 years. VC: 2 2nd round appearances/defeats on 9 years.

We'll talk again in 7 months.
lmao this threads about bosh how does carter get into this:rolleyes:

whats with these raptor fans that are obsessed with carter :confusedshrug:

[bokes15]

lmao this threads about bosh how does carter get into this:rolleyes:

whats with these raptor fans that are obsessed with carter :confusedshrug:
not that it justifies a mention of Carter in a Bosh hating thread, but there could just as easily be a "Why Vince Carter will never be a great player" thread, and there would be just as much, if not more reasoning and facts to put towards that.

[Good Old Willy]

And Bosh isn't 6'10". I don't know why some "experts" make that mistake (especially ones from Toronto).

This was the only thing I took away form that article yesterday. TorStar's beat writer Doug Smith is about as knowledgable as anyone not in the org can be about the Raptors. Very, very few mistakes in his writing. Can't think why he specifically wrote 6'10 of it isn't true. I had thought that the official real height was 6'11, and the 6'10 was a draft stat holdover. (I have no time for the in shoes height BTW)

[tontoz]

Bosh's height at the combine was measured as 6'10.25" w/o shoes.

http://www.draftexpress.com/measurements.php?year=2003&sort2=ASC&draft=15&sort=

Different teams list their players differently. For example Iggy and Childress measured the exact same height at the combine (6' 5.75" w/o shoes) but Iggy is listed at 6'6" and Childress is listed at 6'8" (fear the 'fro).

If Bosh was drafted by the Hawks they would probably list him at 7'. Josh Smith and Marvin Williams both measured 6'7" at the combine but are listed at 6'9".

[Sham]

Seems like Bosh is the new Kobe around here....

[JtotheIzzo]

Wikipedia also says that Bosh led the league in points in the paint in 2006-2007


wot wot?

tread oba

[A.M.G.]

Chris Bosh is a great player.

[KWALI]

Well, that was a whole lot of pointless jibber jabber.



It's true. Both would rather shoot 15-17 foot jumpers when the going gets tough. Both have guard skills. Both can shoot it. Aside from their offensive capabilitys, neither effect the game in a dominating way.

Both lost in the first round.....



I think you are guilty of using stats to compare Bosh to Dirk who are not at all similar in playing style except being shooters and good at catch and shooting but then you could compare Karl Malone's game to Dirks.....Bosh uses his jumper as a set up to get lanes to the rim and he can operate out of the low post however he prefer's the high post where his speed is a bigger weapon against bigger defenders. Chris Bosh is your classic mismatch player....if you put a quick player on him he goes right to the LOW POST...if you put a Big guy on him he goes to the HIGH post...he never starts his offense at the three point line.

Dirk cannot operate out of the low post. He never shoots jump hooks..a standard for current post scorers...(about 45% of Bosh's shots that aren't dunks are jump hooks). He operates in the HIGH POST almost exclusively interms of post play...However he will start his offense at the three point line and he often comes of screens to set up his jumper his entire game is to set up his jumper......Bosh's is not....

Pls stop misinforming people. Bosh is more like Shareef offensively just much quicker.


If you think you could cover Chris Bosh with Shawn Marion and Bruce Bowen U simply haven't watched him play and are relying on something else.

O and if Dwight Howard had Bosh's footwork in the post heck anywhere he'd own the league. I don't know if he can develope it few guys get true post games after three seasons no matter what age but he's young I think he just needs to ball more and to be counted on offensively.

[Skywalker]

Bosh IS a great player, and WILL be a great player for a while. Why? Mid range game is impeccable. And hes also a very strong finisher, so many times last year he proved he can twist, turn, and scoop circus finishes like Dwyane Wade or finish a vicious drive with a monster slam. I dont care if he can back a guy down or not (which he has shown he can), he can drive by any PF/C in the league.

Things he needs not work on to become the best he can be: Man to man defense and the WILL to dominate a game. NOT LOW POST MOVES.

[tontoz]

Things he needs not work on to become the best he can be: Man to man defense and the WILL to dominate a game. NOT LOW POST MOVES.

Yeah he does seem to drift at times during games. Maybe Kobe could spare some of his killer instinct and give it to Bosh.

It is pretty ridiculous to criticize his post game though because he has a lot of moves around the basket.

A couple of years ago i thought he was being overhyped here but not now.

[Carbine]

In a time where everyone goes by "what have you done for me lately" Chris Bosh somehow illudes it.

Do I need to remind you that he STUNK THE JOINT UP in the playoffs? Against the slow-footed defender in Collins? He got worked.

It was his first playoff appareance you say? Who cares. The elite players play great especially in the playoffs. Tim Duncan played well in his first playoff appearance. Dwyane Wade. Michael Jordan. The list goes on.

Why does Bosh get a pass? If he's an elite player that card shouldn't apply. If you play like **** you play like ****...bottom line.

In conclusion to this thread, I will summarize why I feel Bosh is not worthy of elite status.

- His post game is lacking. Is he the traditional post player that wins championships? Does he fit in with the likes of Jabbar, Wilt, Shaq, Duncan, etc? Ask yourself.

- Bosh can't dominate a game by scoring 15 points.

- You can't build a great defense around Bosh as the foundation of it.

Let me know the last player to lead a team to a ring that was comparable to Bosh. You will be searching for quite a while.

[Los Angeles]

Let me know the last player to lead a team to a ring that was comparable to Bosh. You will be searching for quite a while.

Isn't Hakeem Olajuwon somewhat comparable?

[tontoz]

Jabbar, Wilt, Shaq, Duncan, etc?


So nobody in the league is an elite player other than Shaq or Duncan. OK

[NugzFan]

Seems like Bosh is the new Kobe around here....

what does that mean?

[Carbine]

So nobody in the league is an elite player other than Shaq or Duncan. OK

When you're considered a big man and the leader of your team, if you aren't dominating the game in a comparable way to those guys (not saying you have to be AS good as they are, but comparable dominance is key here) then no, you aren't elite in my book.


Isn't Hakeem Olajuwon somewhat comparable?

Nope.

[tontoz]

When you're considered a big man and the leader of your team, if you aren't dominating the game in a comparable way to those guys (not saying you have to be AS good as they are, but comparable dominance is key here) then no, you aren't elite in my book.


So Garnett, Amare, Dirk, Brand, Yao etc aren't elite either.

[Carbine]

When you think of post player, do you think of Dirk? That's what I thought. He is a 7'0 guard... just the way it is.

Garnett is different. In most areas he gives you what great big men do...like controlling the rebounds and the ability to play great defense, but he's not the low post player they were/are. But they aren't the perimeter player he is either.

Overall, though, he's comparable... just not favorably.

Amare is not considered elite. Refer to my ealier post in which I believe elite players are around the top 7 or so area. That explains why Yao and Brand aren't "elite" either, although Yao is not far behind and could very well vault himself into that category because he does effect the game the way like a traditional post would... obviously to a smaller degree when you factor in all sides of the ball, but still.... he's a force on offense and at least a presence on defense.

[tontoz]

So who is an elite big man other than Shaq and Duncan?

[Carbine]

Shaq when healthy, but that varies. He shouldn't get a pass because he's injured a lot. Duncan, obviously.

Maybe Yao. Since you said "elite" I feel very uncomfortable naming Yao as that, but he showed me something last year that can go a long way in proving that he belongs.

I don't really classify Garnett as a "big man"

He's more of a taller version of Pippen to me. But he's certainly elite when you factor in overall capabiltys because of the great rebounding and defense he gives you along with his offense.

[tontoz]

But he's certainly elite when you factor in overall capabiltys because of the great rebounding and defense he gives you along with his offense.

Funny but i don't recall him dominating games while scoring 15 points. And he isn't even remotely a post player like Duncan. In fact he rarely goes into the post at all. And his playoff record is less than stellar.


I don't really classify Garnett as a "big man"


So Garnett isn't a big man but Bosh is?

[Carbine]

So Garnett isn't a big man but Bosh is?

According to those stats people like to bring up he is. When I hear those "best young big-man" conversations Bosh' name comes up rather frequently.


Funny but i don't recall him dominating games while scoring 15 points. And he isn't even remotely a post player like Duncan. In fact he rarely goes into the post at all. And his playoff record is less than stellar.

Just because you haven't recalled him doing so doesn't mean he hasn't done it. His talents suggest he can have somewhat of a bad offensive game and still put his mark on it by playing great defense, controlling the rebounds, and just being a threat.

Thats why I hate comparing Bosh to Garnett. They aren't really similar aside from both likeing the 15-17 foot jumper.

[tontoz]

According to those stats people like to bring up he is.

You didn't answer the question.

The question was why do YOU consider Bosh a big man but not Garnett.

Most people would consider them both big men. Most people would also consider Amare and Dirk to be elite players.


His talents suggest he can have somewhat of a bad offensive game and still put his mark on it by playing great defense, controlling the rebounds, and just being a threat.


Putting a "mark" on a game and dominating it are two different things.

[Carbine]

Where did I say Bosh was a legit big man? I said "when you're considered a big man and the leader of your team"

"Considered" is the general publics idea of what he is, not mine. I don't classify Bosh as a big man to be honest.


Putting a "mark" on a game and dominating it are two different things.

Well, if you want to get real literat about things then you're right. When Duncan blocked all those shots against PHX in the playoffs I would have said he left his mark on the game without being great offensivly.

Dominant would have been more appropiate. But that's getting knit-picky for nothing.

Garnett has the talents to put up 15/20/8/3/3... stats never tell you the whole story, and I've been a firm believer that Garnett' stats inflat his impact on the game, but those kind of games don't just pop up unless you're playing at a dominating level.

[Carbine]

Just scanned some game logs of Garnett' and read the recap of the game and this was one of those instances where he didn't play very good on offense (20 points on 27 attempts) but still dominated with 22 rebounds, 10 assists and 3 blocks.

[tontoz]

I don't classify Bosh as a big man to be honest.


Now i am really confused. This is what you posted not long ago.


In conclusion to this thread, I will summarize why I feel Bosh is not worthy of elite status.

- His post game is lacking. Is he the traditional post player that wins championships? Does he fit in with the likes of Jabbar, Wilt, Shaq, Duncan, etc? Ask yourself.



So if you don't consider Bosh a big man why are you comparing him to Jabbar, Wilt, Shaq and Duncan?

[i seen hippos]

So we fan finally agree that Bosh is a great player. Thank you.

[Carbine]

In conclusion to this thread, I will summarize why I feel Bosh is not worthy of elite status.

- His post game is lacking. Is he the traditional post player that wins championships? Does he fit in with the likes of Jabbar, Wilt, Shaq, Duncan, etc? Ask yourself.

Where did I say he was a big man?

"his post game is lacking" should give you enough reason to assume I don't think Bosh is a post player.

And that's the whole thing with why I came here in this thread and dismissed the notion that Bosh will be "truly great"

He's NOT a post player. He's NOT comparable to the likes of those guys I have listed. He doesn't have the potential to get there, either...due to his body frame.

Then someone decides to bring up stats to suggest he IS a low post player... someone else tells me he is, in fact, a great player and that he is a very good low post player.

Why are we even arguing? It seems like much about nothing.

I'm outta here.

[tontoz]

He's NOT a post player. He's NOT comparable to the likes of those guys I have listed.

The only guys you've listed as elite big men are Shaq and Duncan. So basically your whole argument is that Bosh isn't as good as Shaq and Duncan. To that i say...










http://i56.photobucket.com/albums/g195/tontoz/CaptainObvious.jpg

[Carbine]

You know, I remember when your name use to come up in most underrated poster of the year categories when those threads came up.

Why?

You're reading comprehension skills are below average. When you argue the basis of them are stats. You argue much about nothing. And you're not funny.

You have shown nothing to prove you deserve to be even rated. I'm not going to get into an internet fight with you about this or that. So don't respond. Be the bigger man.

Just thought I'd point that out.

[i seen hippos]

You know, I remember when your name use to come up in most underrated poster of the year categories when those threads came up.

Why?

You're reading comprehension skills are below average. When you argue the basis of them are stats. You argue much about nothing. And you're not funny.

You have shown nothing to prove you deserve to be even rated. I'm not going to get into an internet fight with you about this or that. So don't respond. Be the bigger man.

Just thought I'd point that out.

Don't let them anger you and do something foolish such as rescinding your admission to Bosh's greatness.

[tontoz]

You know, I remember when your name use to come up in most underrated poster of the year categories when those threads came up.

Why?

You're reading comprehension skills are below average. When you argue the basis of them are stats. You argue much about nothing. And you're not funny.

You have shown nothing to prove you deserve to be even rated. I'm not going to get into an internet fight with you about this or that. So don't respond. Be the bigger man.

Just thought I'd point that out.

Do you even realize that your entire argument has absolutely no point?

There isn't one poster on this site who would say that Bosh is as good as Duncan or Shaq, not even the most ardent Bosh jockrider.

As far as the rating stuff goes i don't even know what you are talking about. I never remember seeing myself rated anywhere.

[brwnman]

btw carbine... you said bosh can't dominate a game by scoring 15 points... this shows me that you haven't watched Bosh enough or haven't analyzed his game enough to know his game... he can and has dominated games by scoring 15-ish points (many times)...

he is truly one of the underrated passer out of the double-team... he struggled in the beginning when teams began to put double teams on him, but in the last couple of years - he has made some great strides... he doesn't always have the number of assists to back it up, but thats because after he passes out of the double team; the ball swings to the other end of the court in the corner, for what most likely ends up being an Anthony Parker 3...

also, he's one of the best rebounders in the game even though people don't like to admit it... People keep arguing that the raptors don't have any rebounders on their team so Bosh gets all the rebounds... that's just plain wrong - he works hard for 'em... 10.7 rpg don't just fall on your lap...

[Carbine]

I'm sorry but Bosh doesn't dominate the game unless he's on offensivly. It's just the way I see it. I'm not going over everything again...


People keep arguing that the raptors don't have any rebounders on their team so Bosh gets all the rebounds... that's just plain wrong

Just plain wrong? Not whe the second best rebounder is Garb and Rasho.

They grab under five rebounds a game. In other words that team lacks rebounders and the notion that he's the only legit rebounder on that team is at the very least arguable.

[i seen hippos]

I'm sorry but Bosh doesn't dominate the game unless he's on offensivly. It's just the way I see it. I'm not going over everything again...



Just plain wrong? Not whe the second best rebounder is Garb and Rasho.

They grab under five rebounds a game. In other words that team lacks rebounders and the notion that he's the only legit rebounder on that team is at the very least arguable.

Do you agree that Kidd is an average rebounder in a good situation to inflate his stats?

[Carbine]

Do you agree that Kidd is an average rebounder in a good situation to inflate his stats?

He's not an average rebounder at the PG spot, but yes...I have argued with numerous posters on this site about his rebounding and how many teams hes found himself on where they lack great rebounders causing them to inflate.

[ForceOfNature]

[QUOTE=Se

[DeuceWallaces]

Bosh is a really good player.

[brwnman]

I'm sorry but Bosh doesn't dominate the game unless he's on offensivly. It's just the way I see it. I'm not going over everything again...

Your whole point is based upon stats... and I am telling you - you can't judge Bosh's impact on the team by his stats... If you have watched the Raptors play, you know that the whole raptors' team depends on Bosh... he attracts double teams and then is great at kicking out of the double team... the person to first touch the ball afterwards is not usually the one who takes the shot - rather, the ball is swung around the perimeter - that is just the way the Raptors run their offense...



Just plain wrong? Not whe the second best rebounder is Garb and Rasho.

They grab under five rebounds a game. In other words that team lacks rebounders and the notion that he's the only legit rebounder on that team is at the very least arguable.

Leading Rebounders in the NBA in comparison of the second leading rebounders of their team:


1. Minnesota - Blount 6.1
2. Orlando - Milicic 5.5
3. New Orleans - West 8.1 (52 games)
4. Utah Jazz - Okur 7.2
5. Denver - Hilario 7.0
6. Charlotte - Wallace 7.2
7. Boston - Pierce 5.9

If Rasho were to get equivalent minutes to the aforementioned players, he'd be averaging more rebounds than all of them except Okur, West and Hilario...

He'd be less than .1 rpg short of Okur's average and 0.3 off of West's average... only person to out-rebound him considerably is Hilario...

but getting back the point - to say that Bosh is a weak rebounder because the rest of his team doesn't rebound is a really weak argument... I showed you the rest of the team's whose players were in Top 7 and by your argument, only Okafor, Boozer and Camby should be considered good rebounders...

[Carbine]

:oldlol:

What was that about? I don't understand why you bring that up. Are you trying to tell me Rasho is a good rebounder? Juon Dixon was tied for their fourth most RPG! A bench player no less.

Anyways, you can't sit there and type to me that Toronto has great rebounders surrounding Bosh. Or average ones for that matter.


If you have watched the Raptors play, you know that the whole raptors' team depends on Bosh... he attracts double teams and then is great at kicking out of the double team... the person to first touch the ball afterwards is not usually the one who takes the shot - rather, the ball is swung around the perimeter - that is just the way the Raptors run their offense

I'll tell you what I see. It's not Bosh dominating the post by just being there and creating numerous easy and wide open looks for his teammates the way you are making it sound. Sure, he does that at times... but it's not consistent.

I also see a lot of plays being made by the fast break via Jose and Ford. In the half-court I see a lot of those guys breaking their man down and creating shots for themselves/others. It happens WAY more than the Bosh being doubled for the around the horn three pointer in the corner.

[tontoz]

Toronto is 4th worst in the league in rebounding differential. Only GS, Sactown and the Bucks were worse.

Bargnani and Rasho definitely need to step it up.

[brwnman]

:oldlol:

What was that about? I don't understand why you bring that up. Are you trying to tell me Rasho is a good rebounder? Juon Dixon was tied for their fourth most RPG! A bench player no less.

Anyways, you can't sit there and type to me that Toronto has great rebounders surrounding Bosh. Or average ones for that matter.

okay, you just proved that your own theory about the second leading rebounders on a team is faulty... thank you for proving my point...




I'll tell you what I see. It's not Bosh dominating the post by just being there and creating numerous easy and wide open looks for his teammates the way you are making it sound. Sure, he does that at times... but it's not consistent.

I also see a lot of plays being made by the fast break via Jose and Ford. In the half-court I see a lot of those guys breaking their man down and creating shots for themselves/others. It happens WAY more than the Bosh being doubled for the around the horn three pointer in the corner.

now I know you haven't seen the Raptors play much last season... nobody on the raptors breaks down their man except Jose, Ford and Bosh... Bargnani got that opportunity late in the season, but for most of the year - nope, not even him...

I'm just gonna advise you to watch a team play before you make assumptions on critiquing a player from that team...

[josh_3089406]

Kevin Garnett weighed 225 until a couple years ago at 7 feet. How did his career go? Remind me.
I agree! I don't see anything wrong with bosh. He's just the "new age skinny athletic power forward" lol
He had a brilliant year last season! Leave him alone everyone!:hammerhead:

[bumpyknucks]

This conversation reminds me alot of what happened with Rick Smits. For years, coaches tried to get Smits to bulk up, it didnt fit his frame and he ended up just losing agility and piling up injuries. It wasnt until Larry Brown came in, and had Smits lose weight, and just work on his agility that Smits truly had a break thru year. Another example that you can point to would be Elton Brand, and I

[Carbine]

now I know you haven't seen the Raptors play much last season... nobody on the raptors breaks down their man except Jose, Ford and Bosh.

Again, read what I'm saying. Are people around here actually this stupid? I learned to read and understand what I just read before I was double digits.

I said "those guys" AFTER mentioning Jose and Ford. In this case, "those guys" would mean I was referring to Jose and Ford.

FFS.

[Da KO King]

Again, read what I'm saying. Are people around here actually this stupid? I learned to read and understand what I just read before I was double digits.

I said "those guys" AFTER mentioning Jose and Ford. In this case, "those guys" would mean I was referring to Jose and Ford.

FFS.
:roll: Better you than me dude. I've learned my lesson. No more debating Raptor fans for me.

[GOBB_Junior]

http://blogimages.thescore.com/tbj/files/2012/06/chris-bosh-champs-glasses-cigar.jpg

[LilEddyCurry]

http://blogimages.thescore.com/tbj/files/2012/06/chris-bosh-champs-glasses-cigar.jpg
repped. :bowdown: