The Top 100 Greatest NBA Players Of All Time According To ISH

[L.Kizzle]

TALK ABOUT THE PLAYERS WHO YOU BELIEVE SHOULD HAVE BEEN HIGHER ON THE LIST, ARE WAY TO HIGH ON THE LIST. ALSO TALK DISCUSS PLAYERS THAT SHOULD HAVE BEEN IN THE TOP 100 AND PLAYERS THAT HAVE NO BUSINESS BEING ON THIS LIST.


Insidehoops has finally gotten through with it’s 100 Greatest Players list in 100 days (well probably 108 days, I wasn‘t here a couple of days and they went on a while longer). There is a bunch of great players, some hall of famers who didn’t even make this list.


-Gilbert Arenas
-Rolando Blackman
-Walter Davis
-Cliff Hagan
-Lou Hudson
-Gus Johnson
-Marques Johnson
-Bobby Jones
-Bill Laimbeer
-Lafayette Lever
-Ed MaCauley
-Jermaine O’Neal
-Jim Pollard
-Micheal Ray Richardson
-Jack Sikma
-Rudy Tomjanovich
-Chet Walker
-Paul Westphal
Just to name a few…


Thanks to everyone from insidehoops who participated in these threads over the past 100+ days. I’m pretty sure everyone learned something they didn’t know before after voting and reading up on players.


#100 - Mark Aguirre. Mark Aguirre played in an era where the small forward was one of the deepest positions. #5, #12, #43, #58, #60, #61, #71 and #83 were all SF’s he had to play nightly. He held his own with the Dallas Mavericks and latter as a Piston. He made all of him NBA All-Star appearances and his highest scoring average (29.5) with Dallas. He was traded for #71 and helped Dallas win back to back titles as he played with #20, #47 and #62.

| PPG 20 | RPG 5 | APG 3.1 |
3 NBA All-Star Games
Field Goal attempts leader
2 NBA Championships


http://www.nba.com/media/history/dal_uni_02.jpg


ISH 100 Greatest NBA Players of All-Time
1. Michael Jordan
2. Wilt Chamberlain
3. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
4. Earvin 'Magic' Johnson
5. Larry Bird
6. Bill Russell
7. Shaquille O'Neal
8. Oscar Robertson
9. Hakeem Olajuwon
10. Tim Duncan
11. Jerry West
12. Julius Erving
13. Moses Malone
14. Elgin Baylor
15. Bob Pettit
16. John Havlicek
17. Karl Malone
18. George Mikan
19. David Robinson
20. Isiah Thomas
21. Charles Barkley
22. John Stockton
23. Bob Cousy
24. Kobe Bryant
25. Rick Barry
26. Scottie Pippen
27. Clyde Drexler
28. Gary Payton
29. Willis Reed
30. Patrick Ewing
31. Allen Iverson
32. Walt Frazier
33. Elvin Hayes
34. George Gervin
35. Jason Kidd
36. Dave Cowens
37. Kevin Garnett
38. Bob McAdoo
39. Nate Thurmond
40. Wes Unseld
41. Kevin McHale
42. Dolph Schayes
43. Dominique Wilkins
44. Bill Walton
45. Sam Jones
46. Kevin Johnson
47. Dennis Rodman
48. Dirk Nowitzki
49. Steve Nash
50. Billy Cunningham
-----
51. Nate 'Tiny' Archibald
52. 'Pistol' Pete Maravich
53. Tracy McGrady
54. Hal Greer
55. Jerry Lucas
56. Robert Parish
57. Earl 'the Pearl' Monroe
58. Bernard King
59. Artis Gilmore
60. Alex English
61. James Worthy
62. Joe Dumars
63. Bill Sharman
64. Reggie Miller
65. Paul Arizin
66. Sidney Moncrief
67. Dave DeBusschere
68. Dave Bing
69. David Thompson
70. Lenny Wilkens
71. Adrian Dantley
72. Bob Lanier
73. Neil Johntson
74. Walt Bellamy
75. Vince Carter
76. Spencer Haywood
77. Ray Allen
78. Dennis Johnson
79. Paul Pierce
80. Dikembe Mutombo
81. Connie Hawkins
82. Chris Webber
83. Chris Mullin
84. Grant Hill
85. Mitch Richmond
86. Dan Issel
87. 'Jumpin' Joe Fulks
88. Alonzo Mourning
89. Shawn Kemp
90. Mark Price
91. Anfernee 'Penny' Hardaway
92. Tommy Heinsohn
93. George McGinnis
94. Tim Hardaway
95. Mel Daniels
96. Bob Davies
97. Tom Chambers
98. Maurice Cheeks
99. Ben Wallace
100. Mark Aguirre

#100 Greatest Player Voting
Mark Aguirre = 8 votes
Gilbert Arenas = 3 votes
Lafayette Lever = 3 votes
Jim Pollard = 2 votes
Bobby Jones = 1 vote
Bill Laimbeer = 1 vote
Ed MaCauley = 1 vote
Rik Smits = 1 vote


Number 101 seems to be a tie between Gilbert Arenas and Fat Lever...


Official #100 NBA Player Of All Time According To ISH (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=57656)

[kwajo]

I can't believe Jack Skima didn't make it. I'm so ashamed.

[L.Kizzle]

TOO HIGH
-The first player I think that is slightly too high is David Robinson at #19. He’s listed above possibly 3 players from the same era that were better then him. 5 spots lower around 25 or 26 would have been good.

-#24 Kobe Bryant, I thought it was a conspiracy when Kobe got 39 votes to be the 24th Greatest player. #26, #27 and #28. Clyde Drexler, Scottie Pippen and Gary Payton. Someone called it “the attack of the 90’s semi-legends.” While Clyde is my favorites player of All-time, he is about 7-8 spots to high, same with Scottie and GP. All three are about 7-8 spots to high. None of those guys should be over Gervin, the other Clyde, Elvin Hayes, ect.

-Allen Iverson at #31 is also a couple of spots too high.

-Kevin Johnson at #46 is way, way, way too high on the list …way. I could name tons of players on this list thath should be above him. #47, #48 and #49, Dennis Rodman, Dirk Nowitzki and Steve Nash are about 5 spots high. They should be in the early 50’s.

-#52 and #53, Pete Maravich and T-Mac are slightly high on the list. #62 and #63, Joe Dumars and Bill Sharman are too high.
-#75, #77 and #79 … Vince Carter, Ray Allen and Paul Pierce are all at least 10-12 spots too high. Webber, Mullin, DJ, Grant Hill, ect are all better
-#95, Mel Daniels should have been a tad bit higher. Two MVP’s, Three Titles …



TOO LOW
-George Gervin is the first player I thought too be too low at #34. AI,HP, Clyde, ect shouldn’t be above ‘Ice Man’

-Dave DeBuscherre is too low on the list at #67.

-#78 Dennis Johnson is lower then he should be. Ray Allen, Vince Carter, over DJ, ha.

-#82 and #83, former teammates Webber and Mullin are to low. Paul Pierce has a better career then these two guy, yeah right.

-#93 and 94, George McGinnis and Tim Hardaway are to low. KJ #46 and Timmy #94, LOL. Guys played in the same era and where not that far apart. Hell, some would say Timmy is better.



WHY?
#97 Tom Chambers shouldn’t even be on this 100 Greatest List.

[dejordan]

nice job, kizzle. this took a lot of work on your part. whether or not i agree with the picks doesn't matter. way to put in the time and effort! :cheers:

[Los Angeles]

Yeah, a lot of effort was done on your part...we all appreciate it.
This should be a sticky, and be posted on Insidehoops as an article.

[ForceOfNature]

TOO HIGH

#46. Kevin Johnson - Honestly, this high? No, KJ is good but not good enough for the top 50. Charles Barkley played with both KJ and Maurice Cheeks, and he said Cheeks was the best point guard he ever played with, and Cheeks is way down at #98!! Ridiculous that KJ is this high!

#47. Dennis Rodman - Probably the worst selection of the entire list. Yes, he owns rebounding titles, but he is just not as good as some people who didn't even make this list!

#53. Tracy McGrady - Not getting past the first round, he doesn't deserve to be this high... And yes, I am a T-Mac fan.

#92. Tommy Heinsohn - Not good enough to be in the top 100.

#99. Ben Wallace - I'm a Ben Wallace fan, don't get me wrong, but I think he just hasn't done it throughout his career or enough to warrant a top 100 spot. I could see other guys taking his place in the top 100. Wallace has been in the league since 1996, but only in 2002 did he really start playing well.

TOO LOW

#49. Steve Nash - Two MVP's and a few trips to the Conference Finals warrant more than the #49 spot.

#71. Adrian Dantley - underrated once again!

#85. Mitch Richmond - One of the most underrated players in the history of the National Basketball Association. Richmond was a sensational scorer, and played exceptionally for numerous years throughout his career.


WHO SHOULD HAVE MADE THE LIST

Glen Rice
Larry Johnson
Bill Laimbeer

[Los Angeles]

#71. Adrian Dantley - underrated once again!

THANK YOU

[Dirkules]

dirk nowitzki on 48. Can't complain about that : )

but i would have seen Nash some numbers higher.

[Da KO King]

I still struggle with the idea of Robert Parrish at #56, Dikembe Mutombo at #80 but Dan Issel at #86.

[Thorpesaurous]

I'd have both Willis Reed and Dave Cowens in the late teens low twentys. In with Isiah. I think in clumps that the list is pretty good.

I'd also have Dennis Johnson way higher.


It was a monumental achievement on your behalf. Nice work.

[picc84]

Dirk is WAY too high.

[Lebron23]

http://www.nba.com/media/history/dal_uni_02.jpg


Mark Aguirre is one of the most underrated player in the History of the NBA and one of the best scorer in the 1980's. I think he is also the 2nd best player to ever played in a Dallas Mavericks Franchise.


In 1986–87 and 1987–88 he made the All-Star Team and averaged 25.7 and 25.1 points, respectively, during the regular season. The Mavericks won more than 50 games each year. The 1987–88 edition of the franchise went 53-29, beat Houston and the Denver Nuggets in the first two rounds of the postseason, then extended the Lakers to seven games before losing in the Western Conference Finals. from Wikipedia

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/a/aguirma01.html


Career Stats

20.0 PPG, 3.1 APG, 5.0 RPG

Playoff stats

17.1 PPG, 5.3 RPG, 2.6 APG

[lurch67]

My beef is Barkley at 21 while Rodman is at 47. Yeah, Barkley put up more points, but Rodman was a part of 2 dynasties and had more boards. Basketball is more than just offense.

[hateraid]

All in all great effort kizz on a great concept. Wait to stick it through right to the end and at least bring a little participation to the NBA lounge during the off season:applause:

[LBJ 4 MVP]

Ben Wallace should not even be near this list.

[hateraid]

Ben Wallace should not even be near this list.

I somewhat agree. I would have had Bobby Jones over him and Kwajo's beloved Sikma. Ro Blackmon as well. But we are responsible for voting and this is how it went. Hence the outcome was detemined by fans who might not have known about the accomplishments of earlier players.

[dejordan]

My beef is Barkley at 21 while Rodman is at 47. Yeah, Barkley put up more points, but Rodman was a part of 2 dynasties and had more boards. Basketball is more than just offense.
but you could build a contender around barkley. rodman was a piece of the puzzle but was never even the second best player on one of those 5 title teams (actually in hindsight people rank him this high but during his career he was never valued so highly by the public - which could be an indication that hind sight is 20-20 or that we get overawed by rings and rebound titles as time passes. on the pistons he was considered maybe the 6th best player at the time, on the spurs he ranked after robinson and elliot in most minds, and on the bulls after jordan and pippen).

i'm not even saying that if you switched charles and rodman you'd get better results with charles in detroit and chicago. i'm just saying that given their histories, chuck's relative value to his playoff teams was higher than dennis's relative value to his championship squads in the eyes of most people who would vote charles that high.

[elz]

fun side topic

good non top 100 players

Larry Johnson before the back injury
Sean Elliot
John Starks
Reggie Lewis

[Richie2k6]

Props to Kizzle for finishing the list all the way through. Has some rough spots, and some terrible spots (Maravich and McGrady where they are), but overall, it's not that bad for the most part.

[lurch67]

but you could build a contender around barkley. rodman was a piece of the puzzle but was never even the second best player on one of those 5 title teams (actually in hindsight people rank him this high but during his career he was never valued so highly by the public - which could be an indication that hind sight is 20-20 or that we get overawed by rings and rebound titles as time passes. on the pistons he was considered maybe the 6th best player at the time, on the spurs he ranked after robinson and elliot in most minds, and on the bulls after jordan and pippen).

i'm not even saying that if you switched charles and rodman you'd get better results with charles in detroit and chicago. i'm just saying that given their histories, chuck's relative value to his playoff teams was higher than dennis's relative value to his championship squads in the eyes of most people who would vote charles that high.

That I can agree with. Im not saying Rodman should be above Barkley, but that the distance between the two shouldn't be so vast. They played the same position during the same era. Dennis had more success.

Yeah, he was further down the star on his teams but I feel that makes him all the more valued. Here is why: If your going to build a contender, you must take in account for chemistry. You didn't have to worry about Rodman complaining about not getting the ball. Nor did you worry about his work ehtic or shape. Yes his off-court antics raised eyebrows with the media, but he never let that effect his ability to play. You knew what you were getting when he signed the contract.

Barkley had a huge ego to go along with his large pear shaped body. He wasn't the greatest locker mate. Quite possibly why he never won a ring.

To me if I were a GM, I'd take Rodman over Barkley anyday. There are 4 other guys on the floor to score. Let him go in and crash the boards and dive after the loose balls.

[Kblaze8855]

I would bet my life on any group that isnt made up of mostly impressionable teenagers(who vote the same way once someone makes a big deal of one player) not putting Gary Payton as high as 28. Get the same group of legends, coaches, and longtime media members to vote for a top 50 again and I doubt Payton even makes it. Maybe he should...but id doubt it. I mean really...

Elvin Hayes led the L in scoring and rebounding(rebounding at least twice). Was a 29/17 player in his prime. Made more all star teams(even if you add one to Payton for 99) and more all NBA first teams. Hes the 6th all time leading scorer and the 4th all time leading rebounder. He made 3 finals and won a title that unlike Paytons was when he was still a superstar. He was also one of the guys whio lasted from Russells era to Bird and Magics. He was an all star with Russell and an all star with Bird and Magic. Hell he only missed Jordan by one season so nobody can even say he only played in the old days. He was the second leading scorer for the entire decade of the 70s after Kareem.

And Hayes might not even be the best player listed after Payton. And its just Payton though. Hes one of a number of unusual picks in that range. He, Drexler, Pippen, and Kobe are all too high. Seems for a moment everyone just threw out the usual career measuring standards. I mean...there are 3MVPS who also led teams to titles(2 of them multiple titles) under all 4 of them.

Scottie is my favorite or second favorite player ever, Drexler is underrated these days, Payton was nice, and Kobe is one of the best scorers ever...but cmon. If you can win MVP AND lead a team to a couple titles you deserve to be ranked over them if we are going even partly by accomplishment. And its not like these are guys who were not skilled too.

And lets be real here...would any NBA GM trade Payton, Drexler, or Pippen for Patrick Ewing in the 90s? Well maybe remove Payton since he peaked a bit later than the others. But it seems odd to me. I mean if skills are being so heavily relied on(which is what Iassume since accomplishments clearly were not otherwise Hayes and company are much higher)...

Payton and Webber probably peaked in the same general area. About 99-02. Webber is #82. Payton 28. Am I the only one who remembers that Webber was probably considered better at the time?

[dejordan]

That I can agree with. Im not saying Rodman should be above Barkley, but that the distance between the two shouldn't be so vast. They played the same position during the same era. Dennis had more success.

Yeah, he was further down the star on his teams but I feel that makes him all the more valued. Here is why: If your going to build a contender, you must take in account for chemistry. You didn't have to worry about Rodman complaining about not getting the ball. Nor did you worry about his work ehtic or shape. Yes his off-court antics raised eyebrows with the media, but he never let that effect his ability to play. You knew what you were getting when he signed the contract.

Barkley had a huge ego to go along with his large pear shaped body. He wasn't the greatest locker mate. Quite possibly why he never won a ring.

To me if I were a GM, I'd take Rodman over Barkley anyday. There are 4 other guys on the floor to score. Let him go in and crash the boards and dive after the loose balls.
OR there might be four other guys on the floor who need help scoring, so you might need charles to create offense - something he did as well as just about any front court player this side of shaq and the other absolute best centers in the game. guys like hersey hawkins and dan majerle made a living off of what charles set up for them. rodman couldn't do that. there's a reason he had so much success with the greatest scorer of the last 40 years. but i do agree that having guys without egos who can contribute without needing to get shots is a great, great benefit to any team. the other knock against rodman is that he could lose focus and be a head case (sitting on the sideline with his shoes off during a conference finals game because he was mad at david robinson). charles might not be fan-friendly sometimes, but on the court he was business.

[Jimmy2k8]

Too High:

6. Bill Russell - Not even a top 6 center of all-time, let alone player. He is around the 20-25 range.

11. Jerry West - 13 spots ahead of the 2nd greatest SG ever? :oldlol:

8. Oscar Robertson - Perhaps the worst ranking ever. Ahead of Hakeem? Duncan? Malone? No f'ing way. He is around top 35 all-time.

Too Low:

24. Kobe Bryant - Kobe is unquestionably top 8 all-time. Scrubs like Oscar, West, Russell, Pettit, Havlicek(I could go on and on) ahead of him? :roll: He's easily the 2nd greatest SG ever. He's around the 6-9 range.

Who didn't see you coming?

[picc84]

Karl Malone is too high, as are Gary Payton and Clyde Drexler.

[otmtheshank]

For the most part, the list is pretty reasonable. There are plenty of recent players(90's/00's) who never won anything, nor had great individual accolades, who are on the list over great players from a few years back.

As already stated by somebody, I'd have Bobby Jones ahead of Ben Wallace, as well a few other players who I don't think are even deserving of a spot at all(Penny, Chambers, Tim Hardaway).The top 15 is pretty good, although I might have made a minor adjustment or two.

The biggest beef I have with the list though is this....




62. Joe Dumars

66. Sidney Moncrief

78. Dennis Johnson




In my opinion, Moncrief is a tier ahead of Dumars when ranking 80's-90's era guards. Personally, I'd also have DJ slightly ahead of Dumars too.

Most people seem to think that Dumars is the greatest of the three. I figure the reason for him over Moncrief is because of his Finals MVP, but then again, DJ has an MVP as well, but is generally considered the worst of the three. Its not just the casual fan that regards Dumars as the greatest player either, as Dumars is the only one of the three in the HOF. I'll never understand why fans and experts alike rank Dumars ahead of Sid and DJ.

[dejordan]

In my opinion, Moncrief is a tier ahead of Dumars when ranking 80's-90's era guards. Personally, I'd also have DJ slightly ahead of Dumars too.

Most people seem to think that Dumars is the greatest of the three. I figure the reason for him over Moncrief is because of his Finals MVP, but then again, DJ has an MVP as well, but is generally considered the worst of the three. Its not just the casual fan that regards Dumars as the greatest player either, as Dumars is the only one of the three in the HOF. I'll never understand why fans and experts alike rank Dumars ahead of Sid and DJ.
i'm with you on this. i actually have dj first cause i'm a celts fan, but the principle of the argument is the same. where's the separation that one should be hof and the others shouldn't?

[VCMVP1551]

Dr. J was way too high.

[Rockets(T-mac)]

Too High:

McGrady
Maravich
AI (a bit)
Kobe(a bit)
Oscar Robertson (like 1 or 2 spots too high)

Too low:

Dennis Johnson
Tim Hardaway
Adrian Dantley (a bit)

[-primetime-]

first off...

THANK YOU L.KIZZLE FOR MAKING THIS LIST YOU KICK ASS!!!!!!

seriously...I know that wasn't easy at times counting every day

thank you


second...

iverson at #31 is a complete joke

[Richie2k6]

iverson at #31 is a complete joke
Here we go. :rolleyes:

[Rockets(T-mac)]

iverson at #31 is a complete joke
Man you never give up do you? :lol:

[ForceOfNature]

Too High:

McGrady

Thank you! That's 2 T-mac fans (me too) who feel McGrady was too high.

[-primetime-]

Man you never give up do you? :lol:
nope...

saying Allen Iverson is the 31st best player in the history of the NBA should piss off all NBA fans here...it is just plain wrong. He for the most part of his career was just a ball hogging 1,000 atempts per game shooter that has never won a title.

#100. mark aguirre > #31 allen iverson

that's what I think of that

[Richie2k6]

nope...

saying Allen Iverson is the 31st best player in the history of the NBA should piss off all NBA fans here...it is just plain wrong. He for the most part of his career was just a ball hogging 1,000 atempts per game shooter that has never won a title.

#100. mark aguirre > #31 allen iverson

that's what I think of that
:roll: I'm officially never going to take you seriously anymore.

[Glove_20]

I'm glad Payton got around the spot he deserved.

KJ was too low.



A lot of minor changes here and there. But a pretty good list overall

[-primetime-]

:roll: I'm officially never going to take you seriously anymore.
says the guy with the AI avatar...

[Rockets(T-mac)]

nope...

saying Allen Iverson is the 31st best player in the history of the NBA should piss off all NBA fans here...it is just plain wrong. He for the most part of his career was just a ball hogging 1,000 atempts per game shooter that has never won a title.

#100. mark aguirre > #31 allen iverson

that's what I think of that Wow now we know you are just a hat*r. He got on a bit too high yes but not by much. He is amazing get the hell over it.

[Richie2k6]

says the guy with the AI avatar...
You're just biased and like to overexaggerate. I can't have a logical argument with you. It's that simple. You're just not worth taking seriously. You don't like a player, so you bash them and underrate them, a.k.a immaturity. That's why. That's all there really is to it.

[Glove_20]

I would bet my life on any group that isnt made up of mostly impressionable teenagers(who vote the same way once someone makes a big deal of one player) not putting Gary Payton as high as 28. Get the same group of legends, coaches, and longtime media members to vote for a top 50 again and I doubt Payton even makes it. Maybe he should...but id doubt it. I mean really...


Wow, are you serious? There was someone who made a "New Top 50", and wrote an article, and put Gary Payton in. And GP was also selected into the "Next 10". I doubt that Gary Payton wouldn't be in.



Elvin Hayes led the L in scoring and rebounding(rebounding at least twice). Was a 29/17 player in his prime. Made more all star teams(even if you add one to Payton for 99) and more all NBA first teams. Hes the 6th all time leading scorer and the 4th all time leading rebounder. He made 3 finals and won a title that unlike Paytons was when he was still a superstar. He was also one of the guys whio lasted from Russells era to Bird and Magics. He was an all star with Russell and an all star with Bird and Magic. Hell he only missed Jordan by one season so nobody can even say he only played in the old days. He was the second leading scorer for the entire decade of the 70s after Kareem.

There's reasons he wasn't that high. And I can understand them, but you're just too narrow minded and have been after Elvin Hayes for a while.

[-primetime-]

Wow now we know you are just a hat*r. He got on a bit too high yes but not by much. He is amazing get the hell over it.
ok...

I love the guy i promise I do...he is fun as hell to watch

it's just that...i can see right through his game, and it isn't nearly as great as everyone makes it out to be. he is amazing for his size and he has had some increadable games, but the dude has the ball 24/7 and shoots it 500 times. Obviously that is going to result in some scoring titles. Now I don't REALLY think that Aggire should be ranked above him but I am not so sure that Iverson should be considered in the top 50. And If the NBA decided to make another top 50 list then I am sure they would have trouble trying to sneak him in there.

[-primetime-]

You're just biased and like to overexaggerate. I can't have a logical argument with you. It's that simple. You're just not worth taking seriously. You don't like a player, so you bash them and underrate them, a.k.a immaturity. That's why. That's all there really is to it.
yes i did overexaggerate...but it has nothing to do with me not liking him because I do like him. I just don't think he is as good as everyone makes him out to be.

[Richie2k6]

yes i did overexaggerate...but it has nothing to do with me not liking him because I do like him. I just don't think he is as good as everyone makes him out to be.
I've given you tons and tons and tons of reasons, facts and statistics proving otherwise, yet you refuse to care. That's why I'm just flat out done trying to get it through your head, because you won't change your mind no matter what anybody says.

[-primetime-]

I've given you tons and tons and tons of reasons, facts and statistics proving otherwise, yet you refuse to care. That's why I'm just flat out done trying to get it through your head, because you won't change your mind no matter what anybody says.
you are just as guilty of that as I am...

[Mr_Basketball#1]

Ben Wallace should not even be near this list.
Thats what I said..

[Richie2k6]

you are just as guilty of that as I am...
But you've yet to give me reasons as to why Iverson isn't top 50, or why Dirk should be higher than him, or that he's a ball hog. I've countered all those arguments with better ones.

So how am I the one in denial here? I don't get it.

[Kblaze8855]

Wow, are you serious? There was someone who made a "New Top 50", and wrote an article, and put Gary Payton in. And GP was also selected into the "Next 10". I doubt that Gary Payton wouldn't be in.

"Someone"? there is "someone" who thinks just about everything. And i nthe "next 10" im guessing you mean TNTs thing. It was a 5 minute clip where they asked TNT guys who they wanted to add. Only 2 of the voters from the first list were involved. 14 people total most of them tnt/tbs announcers. The first list was something like 35 players/coaches and then some list of longtime media types. Off the top of my head the only people id expect a similar group to possibly put payton over...

Sam Jones, Earl Monroe, and perhaps Billy Cunningham or Dave Bing. But with Duncan, Kidd, KG, AI, Payton, Kobe, Nique, and Dennis Johnson(especially now) also getting votes...I dont think Gary would make it. Duncan and Kobe are probably the only ones to rise far enough for the legends and such to be forced to give them the kind of votes that would remove some of the first guys.

Besides the next 10 was just that....the NEXT 10. Says nothing of them thinking he belongs over the first 50.


There's reasons he wasn't that high. And I can understand them, but you're just too narrow minded and have been after Elvin Hayes for a while.

There are reasons for just about everything. Doesnt make them good reasons. Hayes was flat out more accomplished at the things generally used. Numbers, accomplishments, and even a ring with 3 trips to the finals in his prime. He(like Reed, Cowens, and Unseld) just suffers from peaking in the 70s which is(on these lists) the most disrespected and unknown era. 50s players are pioneers who get credit and often a higher ranking than they may deserve. 60s playersl ike Wilt, Russell, Oscar, and so on had feats too great to ignore. 80s players were in the Ls golden age and 90s guys are those ISH remembers. The 70s? Just left out. Transitional decade. And its a shame.

Besides...any critism of Hayes would have to center around defensive complaints or his personality and neither could be said of Cowens who is also below that aberration from 24-28.

And ive said it before and ill say it again...you are the last person who should speak on anyone being narrow minded. The mere fact you have often used voting results to determine defensive ability at the sake of considering on the floor issues screams of it. You have actually told me before that you choose to use such things because its objective and not open to interpretation and so on. Making an effort to remove thought and analyzation at the sake of convenience doesnt seem open minded to me. Youre on a short list of people(online or not) more argumentative and repetitive when you think you have a point than I am.

Open minded people dont argue for days at a time and claim the other side knows its wrong if they want to stop(as you do...). The list of open minded people on ISH is short. very short. I am not on it and neither are you.

[L.Kizzle]

I'm glad Payton got around the spot he deserved.

KJ was too low.



A lot of minor changes here and there. But a pretty good list overall
Where would you put KJ, from players #1-#45 it's only arguable with about 5 that he could go over, but then it's players #47-#100 that could be over him, a bunch actually.


I'm a big KJ fan, but he's has gone from terribly underrated to terribly overrated on this forum.

[-primetime-]

But you've yet to give me reasons as to why Iverson isn't top 50, or why Dirk should be higher than him, or that he's a ball hog. I've countered all those arguments with better ones.

So how am I the one in denial here? I don't get it.
Iverson may be better about that stuff now...but I can remember a few years back when (even though he is good) no team would want him on thier team.

I say he is a ball hog and you show me a high assist%....but what you fail to realize is that the reason he has so many assists is because he is a ball hog, if that makes any sense....he always has the ball so 10 -12 times a game he might actually pass it to someone and that player may have the strange luxery of scoring. Most of the time he just takes it to the hoop himself and throw up what ever...

when you have the ball 24/7 you are gonna get assists...simple as that



now like I said....he may be different now on the nugs...I am still looking forward to seeing how that turns out....(i am betting not good)

[-primetime-]

Where would you put KJ, from players #1-#45 it's only arguable with about 5 that he could go over, but then it's players #47-#100 that could be over him, a bunch actually.


I'm a big KJ fan, but he's has gone from terribly underrated to terribly overrated on this forum.
man I agree

what the hell is KJ doing in front of Dirk?...that is seriously ridiculous and was infuenced purely through Glove 20.

KJ is not top 50

[Mr_Basketball#1]

Would you guys rate KJ over Reggie Miller???

[Los Angeles]

Am I the only one person that thinks this is the most accurate top 100 list I've seen to date on any site? I mean honestly, it has some flaws here and there but mainly it's a well done list.


Would you guys rate KJ over Reggie Miller???

Without thinking twice.

[-primetime-]

Am I the only one person that thinks this is the most accurate top 100 list I've seen to date on any site? I mean honestly, it has some flaws here and there but mainly it's a well done list.



Without thinking twice.
I don't have any top 100 lists to compare it to

link?

[Los Angeles]

I don't have any top 100 lists to compare it to

link?

Sites like ESPN, and SI have done a few I'm pretty sure...

http://motownsportsrevival.blogspot.com/2006/12/top-50-basketball-players-of-all-time.html

Here's one list I found, top 50 of all-time.

[Glove_20]

"Someone"? there is "someone" who thinks just about everything. And i nthe "next 10" im guessing you mean TNTs thing. It was a 5 minute clip where they asked TNT guys who they wanted to add. Only 2 of the voters from the first list were involved. 14 people total most of them tnt/tbs announcers. The first list was something like 35 players/coaches and then some list of longtime media types. Off the top of my head the only people id expect a similar group to possibly put payton over...

Sam Jones, Earl Monroe, and perhaps Billy Cunningham or Dave Bing. But with Duncan, Kidd, KG, AI, Payton, Kobe, Nique, and Dennis Johnson(especially now) also getting votes...I dont think Gary would make it. Duncan and Kobe are probably the only ones to rise far enough for the legends and such to be forced to give them the kind of votes that would remove some of the first guys.

Besides the next 10 was just that....the NEXT 10. Says nothing of them thinking he belongs over the first 50.




I've only seen 1 article that remade a "New Top 50", and that one article had Gary Payton in it. Anything else? Show me one that doesn't. And then you have a chance at being right on "I doubt if they made a New Top 50 right now, GP would be in". And all other Top 50 lists I have seen have had GP in it. 100%. So saying "I doubt GP would get voted in" is a pure example of stupidity, and I have backed up that he would get voted with other articles (after all, its just a vote) and all you have said is what you think. And sorry, that doesn't matter in votes.

So try again.




There are reasons for just about everything. Doesnt make them good reasons. Hayes was flat out more accomplished at the things generally used. Numbers, accomplishments, and even a ring with 3 trips to the finals in his prime. He(like Reed, Cowens, and Unseld) just suffers from peaking in the 70s which is(on these lists) the most disrespected and unknown era. 50s players are pioneers who get credit and often a higher ranking than they may deserve. 60s playersl ike Wilt, Russell, Oscar, and so on had feats too great to ignore. 80s players were in the Ls golden age and 90s guys are those ISH remembers. The 70s? Just left out. Transitional decade. And its a shame.

70s players ARE overrated. There is a reason why they are ignored. Why do you think they were called the "Dark Ages of the NBA"





70s players ARE overrated. There is a reason why they are ignored. Why do you think they were called the "Dark Ages of the NBA". And Cowens isn't that good either.



And ive said it before and ill say it again...you are the last person who should speak on anyone being narrow minded. The mere fact you have often used voting results to determine defensive ability at the sake of considering on the floor issues screams of it. You have actually told me before that you choose to use such things because its objective and not open to interpretation and so on. Making an effort to remove thought and analyzation at the sake of convenience doesnt seem open minded to me. Youre on a short list of people(online or not) more argumentative and repetitive when you think you have a point than I am.

I don't base it all on defensive votes, it was just an argument. And when the difference is so high, its worth mentioning, it not like it was a diff. of like 5-10 votes. When there is a difference of 100+ votes vs. 0 votes, its definately worth mentioning, and you'd be ignorant not to think so.


And once again, I am one of the most open-minded on ISH. I change my mind all the time based on arguments. When we were doing this list, I started to argue Payton in after 25, and the argument was Payton vs. Reed. I argued for Payton, but after a while, I realized Reed belongs over Payton, and admit it.

[Los Angeles]

70s players ARE overrated. There is a reason why they are ignored.

Mostly because the lack of exposure to todays generation.
And I agree, I don't see how I can leave Gary Payton off the top 50 list.

[Glove_20]

Where would you put KJ, from players #1-#45 it's only arguable with about 5 that he could go over, but then it's players #47-#100 that could be over him, a bunch actually.


I'm a big KJ fan, but he's has gone from terribly underrated to terribly overrated on this forum.

KJ is Top 40, and the things KJ has done only the greatest have done. Things like lead their teams to WCF past good team's like Magic's Lakers, or be the leader in turning around franchises, or bring out the best from his teammates, those are things only the very great do. He is a PG, initiates the offense, so PGs are rated high anyways. And only him and Magic are by themselves on 20/10/50%, the 3 most important categories for a PG.

KJ is Top 40 for sure

[Glove_20]

Mostly because the lack of exposure to todays generation.
And I agree, I don't see how I can leave Gary Payton off the top 50 list.
No one but KBlaze does. All Top 50 lists I have seen so far in my life have had Gary Payton there.

But somehow KBlaze can say, "I doubt Payton makes Top 50 if they revised"

I mean, I say "Payton would surely be in Top 50", and I have other articles that can back my claim, and the majority everywhere. KBlaze, its just himself. And thi s is a "voting" issue too, so opinion is all that matters...And the opinion seems clear

[-primetime-]

Sites like ESPN, and SI have done a few I'm pretty sure...

http://motownsportsrevival.blogspot.com/2006/12/top-50-basketball-players-of-all-time.html

Here's one list I found, top 50 of all-time.
oh god that list is awful

yeah I see what you mean now

[Richie2k6]

Iverson may be better about that stuff now...but I can remember a few years back when (even though he is good) no team would want him on thier team.
Of course there were teams that want him. You think teams don't want Artest jusut because he has trouble with the law? You think teams don't want Nash just because he's 34? You think teams don't want KObe just because he demands the ball to score a lot? Of course teams wanted him. You can't tell me all other 29 teams in the NBA did not have any interest at him at all. If you think that, you're just lying to yourself.


I say he is a ball hog and you show me a high assist%....but what you fail to realize is that the reason he has so many assists is because he is a ball hog, if that makes any sense....he always has the ball so 10 -12 times a game he might actually pass it to someone and that player may have the strange luxery of scoring.
And I say you completely ignore everything I say and overlap it with your own opinions. How many times do I have to tell you?


A ball hog is somebody who has a me-first mentality and attitude, and does foolish things with the ball when it could easily be given up to a teammate. A ball hog prefers not to pass by their own decision. Iverson was not a ball hog. It was his JOB to handle the ball a lot and score. Larry Brown TOLD HIM he was supposed to score and handle the ball - it was part of their offensive gameplan. Let Iverson score. Same with today's Lakers. Kobe is supposed to handle the rock and is supposed to score. That doesn't make him a ball hog. It's his duty to go out there and score night after night. Iverson was doing his job, not hogging. There's a difference. Are you going to call Marcus Camby a rebound hog next? That's his job, like Iverson and Kobe were to score. Ball hogs and lead offensive weapons are two different things, and many people don't understand that. Sure, everybody makes a couple of selfish moves a game. Hell even Jason Kidd, the most unselfish player in the NBA, pulls up for shots when he could have easily passed it for a better look, though that's rare. Everybody has a time where they don't pass and make a not-so-good decision.


A coach could trust him to facilitate the ball, and he would. His mentality has changed from 5 years ago. He's gone from a scorer, to a scorer and playmaker at the same time. He could go out there and get you a 25/7 game, or he could go out there and get you a 20/10 game. People say he's a ball hog and that his assists only come because he handles the ball a lot? Wrong. Again, if you were to watch tape of his gameplay, you'd see that his assists don't just come because he passes it to people randomly. He's one the of the best penetrate n' kickers in the NBA. He's always dribbling with his head up to see the open man. He's become very unselfish since he's come to Denver. In fact, George Karl said out of his own mouth, that he has to tell Iverson to shoot MORE since he's become TOO unselfish. He's matured as a player and he knows his role on the Nuggets and that it's not to shoot 25 shots per game. His FGA's has gone down from, what, 25 to 18? He's become a great passer and playmaker, and that shows through his numbers and his skill at passing itself. He's proven he can do both at the same time, when he put up 44/15 against the Suns a while back, and averaged 31.2PPG, 10.0APG, 2.2 SPG, 90% FT shooting, 47% shooting from the field and 41% shooting from beyond the arc while averaging almost all 48 MPG. (47.8) in a 5 game series against the Pistons in the '05 Playoffs. That proves that when he's on, he can score with the best of them, and efficiently as well.
I keep telling you these things over and over and over and you don't care, you just keep going by what you think and completely ignore any facts I have to say. I tell you time and time again, he's not a ball hog and hasn't been since the late 90's.

[gts]

Great Job! thanks L.Kizzle that was a ton of work you put and it's much appreciated... looking over the list there is going to be placings that one poster feels need to be changed dependent on his views but over all that list is darn good with most players in the ball park of where they belong

[L.Kizzle]

KJ is Top 40, and the things KJ has done only the greatest have done. Things like lead their teams to WCF past good team's like Magic's Lakers, or be the leader in turning around franchises, or bring out the best from his teammates, those are things only the very great do. He is a PG, initiates the offense, so PGs are rated high anyways. And only him and Magic are by themselves on 20/10/50%, the 3 most important categories for a PG.

KJ is Top 40 for sure
KJ being as top 40 player today means he was a top 30 player when the NBA at 50 list was created 11 years ago. Why wasn't he on the list or even mentioned with the snubs (Nique, McAdoo, English) around the 50 greatest times. How is he not in the hall of fame if he is a top 40 player All-Time. He has only been nominated once for the Hall and was turned down, (that was in 2006) and he wasn't even on the ballot this past seasons Hall of Fame induction.


I'm not saying KJ wasn't a great player, but I think you and G-Matt overrate him a bit. OK, the numbers, him being one of only 3 to do ___ you post that every time we bring up a KJ discussion, but that doesn't really make him a top 40 player at #46.


Tim Hardawy took a team to the Conference Finals, been to the playoff many times with GSW and the Heat. Has just as much accolades as KJ (actually has more), guys played in the same era, yet he is #94 and KJ is #46 and you think he should be higher. Sidney Moncrief has more accolades, a better defender, and about equal efficent scorer as Kev and took his team to the Conference Finals three times, yet he's #64 and KJ is #46.

[D-Fence]

Thanks again to L.Kizzle and everyone else involved in making this list--especially to those who presented insightful arguments and information. Thanks to Statman32, as well, who began this list. In the original post suggesting such an idea, I recall, that TheAnswer supported the project from the beginning, too.

I had a lot of fun and learned a few things. My first post on ISH was to vote and to explain the vote for Bill Russell at #1. This list was the primary reason I joined ISH, and I missed maybe 1 or 2 rounds total. A few were making rude accusations that L.Kizzle's recommendations were determining the list, but it's obvious this list doesn't resemble a personal list L.Kizzle would make. Same with me--I disagreed with this list from day one.

I think this list is off in more ways than I wish to say, but I don't think that's important, either. I enjoyed the process, and everyone who is on the list deserved to at least be considered for it. That said, I especially objected in the beginning to Bill Russell being ranked below fellow Celtic legend Larry Bird, as well as Magic Johnson. I believe I made a comment, at the time, about Red Auerbach rolling over in his grave. Julius Erving over teammate Moses Malone was another early and noticeable mistake. I'd change other things, too, but these are selections where I don't see solid arguments on the other side.

From David Robinson to Gary Payton, the rankings seem to have gone rather askew. L.Kizzle and others complained during the Pippen and Drexler selections about voters not giving arguments for their votes, but, unfortunately, that trend continued and eventually there were rounds where little to no arguments were given for any votes. The bias in favor of 90's players and today's players--and, to an extent, 80s players--continued, as well.

Kblaze said 70s players were the most neglected, but I think it was the pioneer players from the 50s and 40s. Pete Maravich and Artis Gilmore are too high, for example. Bob McAdoo over Dolph Schayes seems odd. The handful of 40s/50s players on this list deserve to be on, and I swear I was the only one at times giving them credit for being "pioneers." And, on skill and athleticism, seeing how Jim Pollard didn't make this list, I don’t see who of them were overrated or shouldn't have made it. A few more should have made it, I think, like Pollard and maybe Vern Mikkelsen, Ed Macauley, George Yardley, and maybe some more.

Who do I think shouldn't be on this list? I said as much about Penny Hardaway and Tom Chambers already. Maybe I'd take Shawn Kemp, Mark Aguirre, Mark Price, Connie Hawkins, Ben Wallace, Ray Allen, Paul Pierce, Vince Carter, and Pete Maravich off the list, too. I'd have to think more about it. Modern players like Vince Carter seem tricky to me for an all-time list.

Anyhow, I do feel good about the list overall, which has little to with whether I agree with it precisely. Comparing it to similar lists, like Elliott Kalb's 50 list (that might be the list Glove was referring to about Gary Payton), the Association for Professional Basketball Research's list of the 100 Greatest Pros of the 20th Century, the NBA's 50 list and TNT's next 10, and Slam's 75 list… I think ISH's list fairs well. And, there were some good arguments and insights provided along the way.

[Kblaze8855]

I've only seen 1 article that remade a "New Top 50", and that one article had Gary Payton in it. Anything else? Show me one that doesn't. And then you have a chance at being right on "I doubt if they made a New Top 50 right now, GP would be in". And all other Top 50 lists I have seen have had GP in it. 100%. So saying "I doubt GP would get voted in" is a pure example of stupidity, and I have backed up that he would get voted with other articles (after all, its just a vote) and all you have said is what you think. And sorry, that doesn't matter in votes.

Maybe you didnt get it the first time...but I said:

"Get the same group of legends, coaches, and longtime media members to vote for a top 50 again and I doubt Payton even makes it. Maybe he should...but id doubt it. I mean really..."

So of what relevance is a list made by any group aside from the one I mentioned? The only list I can even think of of this type is slams top 75. Slam I see has Gary 47th but it was years ago and Duncan wasnt even listed top 50 yet and neither was Kobe or some others who have since risen. So its not really an issue of right now.

My point to begin with was that Gary(unlike someone like Duncan or even Kobe) has not dont anything since the first vote that would clearly put him over a lot of the first list. My point wasnt eve nthat Payton SHOULDNT be top 50. In fact I said maybe he should. But he has not had one of those careers that just shoots him up the ladder the way Duncan and Kobe has. He lacks the MVPs and titles and even individual things that generally get people put up high in rankings. My point was that the list of people he may have surpassed wasnt as long as the list of people who probbaly need to be added. Not that he flat out doesnt deserve it. Ive been saying for a long time that once you get to like #30 its all the same basic level for a long time.



70s players ARE overrated. There is a reason why they are ignored. Why do you think they were called the "Dark Ages of the NBA"

How are 70s players overrated? Where is this big group of people who rates them highly? Kareem is about the only 70s player who gets love for what he did then. Besides....half the 70s greats proved they could play in the 80s too. Hayes as I said was on an all star team with Bill Russell and was a 23/11 all star with Bird and Magic. He was all NBA first team and playing in the finals the season Bird was drafted in fact. bird just returned to school for a year.





And Cowens isn't that good either.

MVP, 2 time champ, 20/15/5, defense playing god of hustle isnt that good? Now that is just disrespect.




I don't base it all on defensive votes, it was just an argument. And when the difference is so high, its worth mentioning, it not like it was a diff. of like 5-10 votes. When there is a difference of 100+ votes vs. 0 votes, its definately worth mentioning, and you'd be ignorant not to think so.

It never fails to amuse me how someone who argued so much against Nash deserving MVP can argue so strongly in favor of others because they got votes. Votes only matter to you(and ot be fair..to anyone) when they support your opinion.


And once again, I am one of the most open-minded on ISH. I change my mind all the time based on arguments. When we were doing this list, I started to argue Payton in after 25, and the argument was Payton vs. Reed. I argued for Payton, but after a while, I realized Reed belongs over Payton, and admit it.

Damn near anyone who has to say they are open minded isnt open minded. Its nice how that works out. Kinda like people who say they arent racist or follow "No offense" with something clearly offensive. I mean really...nobody who has said this:

"You just cant argue with my strong points"

...when someone just decides not to devote hours to an argument should even be mentioning an open mind.

Ive seen you argue for 2-3 hundred posts repeating the same basic thing over and over and over calling people stupid and ignorant to disagree and open minded people just dont act like that. Nothing wrong with not being open minded. Im not either. Neither of us are particulary accepting of opinions we disagree with. But at least I can be real about it.

[haji_d_robertas]

Actually, the 70's is widely considered to be one of the weakest, if not the weakest era in league history. This has been mentioned by people who actually think the 60's was a strong era.

Prove it with a link then.

[haji_d_robertas]

I like the list just the way it is, because people voted for it. The people who seem to complain the most never seemed to be there to vote when it counted. The best thing about the list was not the arguments for or against certain players going to high or low or whatever, but the gaining of knowledge about players that may have been forgotten had people not been there to explain why they belonged on the list.

[haji_d_robertas]

I don't need to prove obvious facts to kids like you. If you fail to understand undisputed facts, that's your problem.

The majority of basketball fans consider the 50's, 60's, and 70's to be very weak.

Prove it with some facts to back up your argument BULLS, I thought it would be easy for you to do. Everyone else seems to do it, why can't you?

[-primetime-]

Of course there were teams that want him. You think teams don't want Artest jusut because he has trouble with the law? You think teams don't want Nash just because he's 34? You think teams don't want KObe just because he demands the ball to score a lot? Of course teams wanted him. You can't tell me all other 29 teams in the NBA did not have any interest at him at all. If you think that, you're just lying to yourself.
you are right...there are plenty of teams that would have taken him...but I can tell you that Dallas wouldn't have taken him during the Nash days if he was given to us for free.

And I say you completely ignore everything I say and overlap it with your own opinions. How many times do I have to tell you?
well what the hell am I supposed to do?.....I will tell you my opinion and then you tell me yours....that is what i am doing and IMO alot of assits doesn't necessarily mean he isn't a ball hog.

I keep telling you these things over and over and over and you don't care, you just keep going by what you think and completely ignore any facts I have to say. I tell you time and time again, he's not a ball hog and hasn't been since the late 90's.
BS...I read your so called "facts"

I believe that there was a time when Iverson was all about himself.....If that was thier game plan then fine...I guess you got me but it sure doesn't look like it worked...

[IceMan2]

I really think 5-10 posters that are considered "Knowledgable" by the majority, and have a good sense of history, should start this and vote on players again.

Good idea? It will give us a more accurate picture.

Guys like Kizzle, D-Fence, etc.

[haji_d_robertas]

Facts don't need to be proven. They are already facts.

Ok, so you'll have no problem posting some facts here for everybody's benefit, right?

[MiseryCityTexas]

im just glad spencer haywood, adrian dantly, and artis gilmore made this list. these dudes get over looked miserably all the time.

[Glove_20]

Maybe you didnt get it the first time...but I said:

"Get the same group of legends, coaches, and longtime media members to vote for a top 50 again and I doubt Payton even makes it. Maybe he should...but id doubt it. I mean really..."

So of what relevance is a list made by any group aside from the one I mentioned? The only list I can even think of of this type is slams top 75. Slam I see has Gary 47th but it was years ago and Duncan wasnt even listed top 50 yet and neither was Kobe or some others who have since risen. So its not really an issue of right now.


And what do you have to show that backs up that Payton wouldn't make it if they voted again. The evidence I have that he will is 1st, common sense, 2nd, most articles written agree. So what do you have on your side? Just that you "think"?



My point to begin with was that Gary(unlike someone like Duncan or even Kobe) has not dont anything since the first vote that would clearly put him over a lot of the first list. My point wasnt eve nthat Payton SHOULDNT be top 50. In fact I said maybe he should. But he has not had one of those careers that just shoots him up the ladder the way Duncan and Kobe has. He lacks the MVPs and titles and even individual things that generally get people put up high in rankings. My point was that the list of people he may have surpassed wasnt as long as the list of people who probbaly need to be added. Not that he flat out doesnt deserve it. Ive been saying for a long time that once you get to like #30 its all the same basic level for a long time.



You're right. He doesn't have the MVPs and wasn't that big of a part on his championship, but his individual greatness was so high he should be in. He outplayed players like John Stockton when it counted, and Stockton was in the early 20s, so I don't see how he could be close to Stockton. And he was a PG, PGs did a lot more things than your average SG. He was also a 2-Way Player, and easily a Top 5 2 Way-Guard, TOP 5, and that counts scoring and defense, the 2 most important categories when comparing all players. He really had no hole in his game, and was very good individually. Add to that the team success he enjoyed, Top 6 in Assists, Record 9 Straight Defensive 1st, and many other little things, he has a good case to be around 28.



How are 70s players overrated? Where is this big group of people who rates them highly? Kareem is about the only 70s player who gets love for what he did then. Besides....half the 70s greats proved they could play in the 80s too. Hayes as I said was on an all star team with Bill Russell and was a 23/11 all star with Bird and Magic. He was all NBA first team and playing in the finals the season Bird was drafted in fact. bird just returned to school for a year.


Its called the ABA. The ABA peaked in the 70s KBlaze8855. The players still playing in the NBA didn't have nearly as much competetion as they did in the 80s, or even 60s. With less competition, players had better stats, defenses were weaker, and it was easier to win championships, get more awards, and I can just go on with the affect that another league can have on the NBA. ABA was the reason the 70s weren't that great, and if you call 70s equal to any other era, you are really overrating the 70s.

Also, basketball is getting more popular and competition therefore is generally increasing with time, thats something modern players will always have over past players...





MVP, 2 time champ, 20/15/5, defense playing god of hustle isnt that good? Now that is just disrespect.


Don't overrate and just look at awards/championships/stats in the 70s, I already explained why everything was inflated for them. Including stats, titles, and awards.




It never fails to amuse me how someone who argued so much against Nash deserving MVP can argue so strongly in favor of others because they got votes. Votes only matter to you(and ot be fair..to anyone) when they support your opinion.


If Nash was the clear cut MVP winner, you wouldn't be seeing me argue against that, and he would be really THAT good (Magic good). But he wasn't. And also, votes aren't everything, they are 1 argument, analysis is still neccesary.



Damn near anyone who has to say they are open minded isnt open minded. Its nice how that works out. Kinda like people who say they arent racist or follow "No offense" with something clearly offensive. I mean really...nobody who has said this:

"You just cant argue with my strong points"

...when someone just decides not to devote hours to an argument should even be mentioning an open mind.

Ive seen you argue for 2-3 hundred posts repeating the same basic thing over and over and over calling people stupid and ignorant to disagree and open minded people just dont act like that. Nothing wrong with not being open minded. Im not either. Neither of us are particulary accepting of opinions we disagree with. But at least I can be real about it.


Most have called me Open-Minded, you are one of the few that hasn't.

[haji_d_robertas]

That's because you don't believe in a GOAT, and you believe that every one of the ten greatest players to ever step on the hardwood are equally as good as one another. You based your top 10 off the ISH list, which basically means that you consider Oscar Robertson and Bill Russell to be just as good as Magic Johnson and Michael Jordan. :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

So what? They are all great in their own ways, what's wrong with saying it? You don't have a problem letting your opinion be known, so it's fair for me to do the same. By the way, if you are going to say I said something, I'd appreciate an actual quote from the pages of this forum.

[Richie2k6]

well what the hell am I supposed to do?.....I will tell you my opinion and then you tell me yours....that is what i am doing and IMO alot of assits doesn't necessarily mean he isn't a ball hog.
Ugh... did you even read what I said properly?

BS...I read your so called "facts"

I believe that there was a time when Iverson was all about himself.....If that was thier game plan then fine...I guess you got me but it sure doesn't look like it worked...
Yeah, like I said, his rookie year till t he late 90's.

[-primetime-]

Ugh... did you even read what I said properly?

yeah you said I keep overlapping your facts with my opinions...

well?...like I said, what else can I do?

[haji_d_robertas]

You are entitled to your own opinion, just understand that your opinion is laughable. They are all great in their own ways, but some are greater than others. There is a reason why Jordan won 6 titles in the only 6 years he was fully available during the most difficult era in league history, and a reason why Oscar couldn't win jack until being paired up with a top 5 center of all-time, despite playing in the weakest era in league history. Oscar was simply not as good as Jordan. Same goes for everyone else.

You just need to understand that there is a definite, clear-cut GOAT. His name is Michael Jeffrey Jordan.

Why?

[Good Old Willy]

Kizzle - good work on this list. Thanks. I enjoyed he reading especially the top 50 threads which I followed closely. I didn't contribute much over the past months because my ball knowledge only goes back 15 years of NBA watching. (hmm... not that a similar lack stopped some of the other posters!) Ultimately the list is subjective, and it seems, somewhat overly dominated by players with a recent public history. (For example, a player such as Gilbert Arenas deserves no mention whatsoever in a top 100 list of all time. He is justifyably left off.) All in all well done. Perhaps missing is Bill Laimbeer?

( Oh yes, one final thing. BULLS your comments are not very intelligent nor useful. Sigh. Ignore continues.)

[Kblaze8855]

And what do you have to show that backs up that Payton wouldn't make it if they voted again. The evidence I have that he will is 1st, common sense, 2nd, most articles written agree. So what do you have on your side? Just that you "think"?

There is no evidence he would. None. How is a list made by people like us(say a magazine staff) or a list made by a couple others gonna show what the NBA voters would say? As if such things would make a guy like Wes unseld(a voter) decide he needed to remove Jerry Lucas for payton or something. Payton being top 50 isnt common sense. There are people ISH has listed in the 80s and 90s who were considered equal to or better than him in their primes.

You have 50 legends to begin with. And lots of legends who didnt even make it. Payton is no more a legend than Nique who didnt even make the first list.

There isnt one speck of evidence Payton would make it. Reggie Miller made Elliot Kalbs top 50, Slam made him #52, and TNT had him listed as one of the next 10. And I dont think hed make a top 50 redo either. About the only locks who didnt make it the first time are Duncan and Kobe. KG and AI probably arent even locks. Jason Kidd either.

Now me doing it personally...id put Payton over Drexler and a few others who made it. But he could be in the 60s very easily.



You're right. He doesn't have the MVPs and wasn't that big of a part on his championship, but his individual greatness was so high he should be in. He outplayed players like John Stockton when it counted, and Stockton was in the early 20s, so I don't see how he could be close to Stockton. And he was a PG, PGs did a lot more things than your average SG. He was also a 2-Way Player, and easily a Top 5 2 Way-Guard, TOP 5, and that counts scoring and defense, the 2 most important categories when comparing all players. He really had no hole in his game, and was very good individually. Add to that the team success he enjoyed, Top 6 in Assists, Record 9 Straight Defensive 1st, and many other little things, he has a good case to be around 28.

You list his resume as if everyone listed doesnt have a great one. Hell #78 is 50 spots behind Gary and has 3 titles, a finals MVP, 7 finals appearances(all as a major player. He averaged 16/8/5 in the worst of his teams finals runs), 9 all D teams, an all nba first team, and upon his retirement was called by Magic the greatest defensive guard of all time. All of these people had great careers. Paytons does not stand out that much. Hes a big fish in a tank full of big fish.


Its called the ABA. The ABA peaked in the 70s KBlaze8855. The players still playing in the NBA didn't have nearly as much competetion as they did in the 80s, or even 60s. With less competition, players had better stats, defenses were weaker, and it was easier to win championships, get more awards, and I can just go on with the affect that another league can have on the NBA.

We went over the ABA a few times and the more I look into it the less I see thats impressive. For one...the majority of ABA greats didnt do anything nearly as impressive in the NBA. And the better stats and all? The 60s stats are the biggest ever and they were pre ABA for the most part. How many 37ppg seasons were in the 70s? None. The 80s had one. how many seasons in the 70s did 3 people score 30ppg? 1. happened 2-3 times in the 80s(if you count Birds 29.98). Happened a couple years ago. In fact we had 3 people over 31 a game. If 70s stats are inflated so much then why were people getting better numbers in the 60s? Seems to me they just gradually decreased form the early 60s. From about 1974 on peoples numbers look about the same.

Cowens was a 19/14/5 player after the ABA was gone. Kareem had 2 MVPs and 13 al lstar games after the ABA. Hayes made 2 of his 3 all nba first teams post ABA and 2 of his 3 finals including the one he won. **** Magic won his first title the year after Hayes led his team to the finals. How much different you think the leage got in the 3 months between Hayes being in the finals and the Magic/Bird era? Nobody great before the merger failed to be after it unless they were just getting old(Havlicek for example who was 36 at the time).


ABA was the reason the 70s weren't that great, and if you call 70s equal to any other era, you are really overrating the 70s.

Explain this to me....if Cowens isnt that good since he played in the 70s...why is Wills Reed better than Payton?



Also, basketball is getting more popular and competition therefore is generally increasing with time, thats something modern players will always have over past players...

So players are worse as you go back in time but the 60s>the 70s? And not all of the 70s players. Just the ones you decide were not that good? Like cowens. Even though Reed is an exception I assume.





Don't overrate and just look at awards/championships/stats in the 70s, I already explained why everything was inflated for them. Including stats, titles, and awards.

So you give Kareem high ranking based on what? The 80s? If you can dismiss what cowens did right next to Kareem and Reed...why do they get credit? His MVP right between Kareems 72 and 74 wins is less valid than Kareems? Reeds 71 and 73 titles factor in but not Cowens a year later and in 76? His 28/14 in the closeout game against Kareems Bucks was inflated somehow?

Why exactly do you choose to leave Cowens out and include other 70s greats? Or Elvin Hayes who was in the finals the year before Magic and was stil la superstar right next to them? How does that work exactly? Just count the players you feel like counting and dismiss the rest?




If Nash was the clear cut MVP winner, you wouldn't be seeing me argue against that, and he would be really THAT good (Magic good). But he wasn't. And also, votes aren't everything, they are 1 argument, analysis is still neccesary.

I remember being told that what people think about what they saw was too subjective.


Most have called me Open-Minded, you are one of the few that hasn't.

For one...ive never seen anyone call you open minded because youre about the only person I see even bring such a thing up. Also...most seem to think I know what im talking about. That factor in to you? I somehow doubt it.

[ForceOfNature]

im just glad spencer haywood, adrian dantly, and artis gilmore made this list. these dudes get over looked miserably all the time.

Agreed, don't forget Alex English.

[haji_d_robertas]

- Greatest offensive player the game has ever seen
- 2nd greatest defensive player the game has ever seen(behind his own teammate)
- 6 championships in the most difficult era in league history, as the undisputed #1 option
- Absurd stats(37.1 ppg, 32.5/8/8, and many more)
- Awards - 5 MVP's(really should be 10), 6 Finals MVP's, 10 time all NBA 1st team, DPOY, 9-time all-defensive first team
- Won with the worst supporting cast out of any player in league history(many fools like to argue that Pippen and Rodman was a great supporting cast, but the fact is a defensive-oriented SF and an offensively challenged PF do not make a great supporting cast).

I think it's pretty clear who the GOAT is. Jordan easily.

Yes, but why is it important to you that I "understand" this?

[haji_d_robertas]

Anyway, I'm glad the season is starting soon and thanks for the great thread. BULLS, your opinions may not have any merit, but you sure do make an ass out of yourself.

[haji_d_robertas]

1. Michael Jordan-6 rings/5 mvps/10 NBA 1st teams
2. Wilt Chamberlain-2 rings/4 mvps/7 NBA 1st teams
3. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar-6 rings/6 mvps/10 NBA 1st teams
4. Earvin 'Magic' Johnson-5 rings/3 mvps/9 NBA 1st teams
5. Larry Bird-3 rings/3 mvps/9 NBA 1st teams
6. Bill Russell-11 rings/5 mvps/3 NBA 1st teams
7. Shaquille O'Neal-4 rings/1 mvp/8 NBA 1st teams
8. Oscar Robertson-1 ring/1 mvp/9 NBA 1st teams
9. Hakeem Olajuwon-2 rings/1 mvp/6 NBA 1st teams
10. Tim Duncan-4 rings/2 mvps/9 NBA 1st teams
11. Jerry West-1 ring/0 mvps/9 NBA 1st teams
12. Julius Erving-1 ring/1 mvp/5 NBA 1st teams
13. Moses Malone-1 ring/3 mvps/4 NBA 1st teams
14. Elgin Baylor-0 rings/0 mvps/10 NBA 1st teams
15. Bob Pettit-1 ring/2 mvps/10 NBA 1st teams
16. John Havlicek-8 rings/0 mvps/4 NBA 1st teams
17. Karl Malone-0 rings/2 mvps/11 NBA 1st teams
18. George Mikan-4 rings/0 mvps/5 NBA 1st teams
19. David Robinson-2 rings/1 mvp/4 NBA 1st teams
20. Isiah Thomas-2 rings/0 mvps/3 NBA 1st teams
21. Charles Barkley-0 rings/1 mvp/5 NBA 1st teams
22. John Stockton-0 rings/0 mvps/2 NBA 1st teams
23. Bob Cousy-6 rings/1 mvp/10 NBA 1st teams
24. Kobe Bryant-3 rings/0 mvps/5 NBA 1st teams
25. Rick Barry-1 ring/0 mvps/5 NBA 1st teams
26. Scottie Pippen-6 rings/0 mvps/3 NBA 1st teams
27. Clyde Drexler-1 ring/0 mvps/1 NBA 1st team
28. Gary Payton-1 ring/0 mvps/2 NBA 1st teams
29. Willis Reed-2 rings/1 mvp/1 NBA 1st team
30. Patrick Ewing-0 rings/0 mvps/1 NBA 1st team
31. Allen Iverson-0 rings/1 mvp/3 NBA 1st teams
32. Walt Frazier-2 rings/0 mvps/4 NBA 1st teams
33. Elvin Hayes-1 ring/0 mvps/3 NBA 1st teams
34. George Gervin-0 rings/0 mvps/5 NBA 1st teams
35. Jason Kidd-0 rings/0 mvps/5 NBA 1st teams
36. Dave Cowens-2 rings/1 mvp/0 NBA 1st teams
37. Kevin Garnett-0 rings/1 mvp/3 NBA 1st teams
38. Bob McAdoo-2 rings/1 mvp/1 NBA 1st team
39. Nate Thurmond-0 rings/0 mvps/0 NBA 1st teams
40. Wes Unseld-1 ring/1 mvp/1 NBA 1st team
41. Kevin McHale-3 rings/0 mvps/1 NBA 1st team
42. Dolph Schayes-1 ring/0 mvps/6 NBA 1st teams
43. Dominique Wilkins-0 rings/0 mvps/1 NBA 1st team
44. Bill Walton-2 rings/1 mvp/1 NBA 1st team
45. Sam Jones-10 rings/0 mvps/0 NBA 1st teams
46. Kevin Johnson-0 rings/0 mvps/0 NBA 1st teams
47. Dennis Rodman-5 rings/0 mvps/0 NBA 1st teams
48. Dirk Nowitzki-0 rings/1 mvp/3 NBA 1st teams
49. Steve Nash-0 rings/2 mvps/3 NBA 1st teams
50. Billy Cunningham-1 ring/0 mvps/3 NBA 1st teams
-----
51. Nate 'Tiny' Archibald-1 ring/0 mvps/3 NBA 1st teams
52. 'Pistol' Pete Maravich-0 rings/0 mvps/2 NBA 1st teams
53. Tracy McGrady-0 rings/0 mvps/2 NBA 1st teams
54. Hal Greer-1 ring/0 mvps/0 NBA 1st teams
55. Jerry Lucas-1 ring/0 mvps/3 NBA 1st teams
56. Robert Parish-4 rings/0 mvps/0 NBA 1st teams
57. Earl 'the Pearl' Monroe-1 ring/0 mvps/1 NBA 1st team
58. Bernard King-0 rings/0 mvps/2 NBA 1st teams
59. Artis Gilmore-0 rings/0 mvps/0 NBA 1st teams
60. Alex English-0 rings/0 mvps/0 NBA 1st teams
-----
61. James Worthy-3 rings/0 mvps/0 NBA 1st teams
62. Joe Dumars-2 rings/0 mvps/0 NBA 1st teams
63. Bill Sharman-4 rings/0 mvps/4 NBA 1st teams
64. Reggie Miller-0 rings/0 mvps/3 NBA 1st teams
65. Paul Arizin-1 ring/0 mvps/3 NBA 1st teams
66. Sidney Moncrief-0 rings/0 mvps/4 NBA 1st teams
67. Dave DeBusschere-2 rings/0 mvps/0 NBA 1st teams
68. Dave Bing-0 rings/0 mvps/2 NBA 1st teams
69. David Thompson-0 rings/0 mvps/2 NBA 1st teams
70. Lenny Wilkens-0 rings/0 mvps/0 NBA 1st teams
71. Adrian Dantley-0 rings/0mvps/0 NBA 1st teams
72. Bob Lanier-0 rings/0 mvps/0 NBA 1st teams
73. Neil Johntson-1 ring/0 mvps/4 NBA 1st teams
74. Walt Bellamy-0 rings/0 mvps/0 NBA 1st teams
75. Vince Carter-0 rings/0 mvps/0 NBA 1st teams
76. Spencer Haywood-1 ring/0 mvps/2 NBA 1st teams
77. Ray Allen-0 rings/0 mvps/0 NBA 1st teams
78. Dennis Johnson-3 rings/0 mvps/2 NBA 1st teams
79. Paul Pierce-0 rings/0 mvps/0 NBA 1st teams
80. Dikembe Mutombo-0 rings/0 mvps/0 NBA 1st teams
81. Connie Hawkins-0 rings/0 mvps/1 NBA 1st team
82. Chris Webber-0 rings/0 mvps/1 NBA 1st team
83. Chris Mullin-0 rings/0 mvps/1 NBA 1st team
84. Grant Hill-0 rings/0 mvps/1 NBA 1st team
85. Mitch Richmond-1 ring/0 mvps/0 NBA 1st teams
86. Dan Issel-0 rings/0 mvps/0 NBA 1st teams
87. 'Jumpin' Joe Fulks-1 ring/0 mvps/3 BAA 1st teams
88. Alonzo Mourning-1 ring/0 mvps/1 NBA 1st team
89. Shawn Kemp-0 rings/0 mvps/0 NBA 1st teams
90. Mark Price-0 rings/0 mvps/0 NBA 1st teams
91. Anfernee 'Penny' Hardaway-0 rings/0 mvps/2 NBA 1st teams
92. Tommy Heinsohn-10 rings/0 mvps/0 NBA 1st teams
93. George McGinnis-0 rings/0 mvps/1 NBA 1st team
94. Tim Hardaway-0 rings/0 mvps/1 NBA 1st team
95. Mel Daniels-0 rings/0 mvps/0 NBA 1st teams
96. Bob Davies-1 ring/0 mvps/0 NBA 1st teams
97. Tom Chambers-0 rings/0 mvps/0 NBA 1st teams
98. Maurice Cheeks-1 ring/0 mvps/0 NBA 1st teams
99. Ben Wallace-1 ring/0 mvps/0 NBA 1st teams
100. Mark Aguirre-2 rings/0 mvps/0 NBA 1st teams

[kidachi]

TOO HIGH

IMO


#10 - duncan
#45 - rodman (why is he even there?)
#28 - payton
#53 - mcgrady
#46 - johnson

[AI Nuggets3]

my worry was that Iverson was going to go 15-20. i dont necessarily see #31 as an outrage at all. Just going by stats alone he's the 3rd greatest scorer the game has ever seen. i thought that fact was going to make young people vote him in at a ridiculous number.

but its not secret that guys like AI and Dr. J will always get some kind of free pass when it comes to rankings because of their influence in the game and outside of the game.

Still the influence, the MVPs, the clutch playoff performances (Iverson has 2 of the greatest game 7 performances in NBA history), and the scoring and steals averages are the reasons why Iverson is fair at #31.

when you see guys like Jordan and Bird praising Iverson, i think thats a pretty good sign that he's better than you think.... but maybe they just can't "see through" him like -primetime- can :D

[AI Nuggets3]

Iverson is way too low. When you see guys like West, Havlicek, Pettit, Mikan, Cousy, and Barry ahead of Iverson, you know the list is garbage.

Iverson is around the 17-20 range.

lets not get crazy. but i think this is your job around here :lol:

[Glove_20]

There is no evidence he would. None. How is a list made by people like us(say a magazine staff) or a list made by a couple others gonna show what the NBA voters would say? As if such things would make a guy like Wes unseld(a voter) decide he needed to remove Jerry Lucas for payton or something. Payton being top 50 isnt common sense. There are people ISH has listed in the 80s and 90s who were considered equal to or better than him in their primes.

You have 50 legends to begin with. And lots of legends who didnt even make it. Payton is no more a legend than Nique who didnt even make the first list.

There isnt one speck of evidence Payton would make it. Reggie Miller made Elliot Kalbs top 50, Slam made him #52, and TNT had him listed as one of the next 10. And I dont think hed make a top 50 redo either. About the only locks who didnt make it the first time are Duncan and Kobe. KG and AI probably arent even locks. Jason Kidd either.

Now me doing it personally...id put Payton over Drexler and a few others who made it. But he could be in the 60s very easily.



Give me one legitimate reason Payton would not get voted in by the "NBA Voters". I mean, do they have something against him?

I was saying that the "General Consensus" or most, if not all, the Top 50 lists made have Gary Payton in there. So give me 1 reason why the "NBA Voters" for some reason wouldn't give the nod to Payton. Most have been putting Gary Payton in the Top 50, so I don't see why NBA voters won't. Give me 1 legitimate reason.


All I am saying is the general consensus is Payton = Top 50 easily, and that means MOST LIKELY Payton would be in Top 50 for NBA voters as well, not "I Doubt he gets voted in at Top 50"



You list his resume as if everyone listed doesnt have a great one. Hell #78 is 50 spots behind Gary and has 3 titles, a finals MVP, 7 finals appearances(all as a major player. He averaged 16/8/5 in the worst of his teams finals runs), 9 all D teams, an all nba first team, and upon his retirement was called by Magic the greatest defensive guard of all time. All of these people had great careers. Paytons does not stand out that much. Hes a big fish in a tank full of big fish.

Don't tell me you think DJ > GP? And Payton didn't play at Magic's time, or Magic would've said GP is the best defensive PG.



We went over the ABA a few times and the more I look into it the less I see thats impressive. For one...the majority of ABA greats didnt do anything nearly as impressive in the NBA. And the better stats and all? The 60s stats are the biggest ever and they were pre ABA for the most part. How many 37ppg seasons were in the 70s? None. The 80s had one. how many seasons in the 70s did 3 people score 30ppg? 1. happened 2-3 times in the 80s(if you count Birds 29.98). Happened a couple years ago. In fact we had 3 people over 31 a game. If 70s stats are inflated so much then why were people getting better numbers in the 60s? Seems to me they just gradually decreased form the early 60s. From about 1974 on peoples numbers look about the same.

Cowens was a 19/14/5 player after the ABA was gone. Kareem had 2 MVPs and 13 al lstar games after the ABA. Hayes made 2 of his 3 all nba first teams post ABA and 2 of his 3 finals including the one he won. **** Magic won his first title the year after Hayes led his team to the finals. How much different you think the leage got in the 3 months between Hayes being in the finals and the Magic/Bird era? Nobody great before the merger failed to be after it unless they were just getting old(Havlicek for example who was 36 at the time).



KBlaze, use your head.

What happens in a league when there is less competition than there should be? Think about it for a second. EVERYTHING will be easier to do, from scoring, to stats, to awards, to All-Star App.

For example, pretend Eastern Confrence was their own league (ABA), and all their was the West (NBA). And all the Western teams got their players redistributed to 30 teams. Well it will be easier to put up good numbers first of all, since you are the center of the team. 2nd of all, getting All-Star App. and All-NBA Teams wouldn't be as hard with less competition, and the same goes with the MVP award.

Less Competition is = things are easier.




Explain this to me....if Cowens isnt that good since he played in the 70s...why is Wills Reed better than Payton?

Willis Reed won his 2 titles in the early 70s. That is arguably the most competitive Era of basketball. Give him props, he started in the late 60s and was great in the early 70s and won 2 titles, MVP, and everything then. Thats why.





So players are worse as you go back in time but the 60s>the 70s? And not all of the 70s players. Just the ones you decide were not that good? Like cowens. Even though Reed is an exception I assume.

Well really, the big jump in basketball popularity came in different places. How many great players from the 60s are recognized vs. the ones in the 70s? The 60s might have had better best players, but I think more 70s players are remembered, just more popularity.

And really, 80s was the big jump. All I am saying is Basketball is more popular and competitive than it was 40 years ago. And also, many from the 60s also had to do their own things, the players in the 70s really weren't that much better, but should've gone further with what the legends from the 60s did. You know, "Based his game on..."






So you give Kareem high ranking based on what? The 80s? If you can dismiss what cowens did right next to Kareem and Reed...why do they get credit? His MVP right between Kareems 72 and 74 wins is less valid than Kareems? Reeds 71 and 73 titles factor in but not Cowens a year later and in 76? His 28/14 in the closeout game against Kareems Bucks was inflated somehow?

Why exactly do you choose to leave Cowens out and include other 70s greats? Or Elvin Hayes who was in the finals the year before Magic and was stil la superstar right next to them? How does that work exactly? Just count the players you feel like counting and dismiss the rest?

One again, Reed, Kareem, both were big in the Early 70s, a very compeitive Era in basketball. Cowens emerged after all the great 70s Teams fell, and ABA got at his peak. Think about it...

[-primetime-]

14. Elgin Baylor-0 rings/0 mvps/10 NBA 1st teams

why is this guy #14????

0 rings

0 mvps

[L.Kizzle]

why is this guy #14????

0 rings

0 mvps
One of the greatest ever, no titles but went to the Finals 8 times, losing 3 games 7's. No MVP's but I think six top 5 finishes and I'm pretty sure a couple were at number 2.


You also gotta look at the era he played in, Wilt/Kareem/Russell/Robertson those are 4 top 10 players (from the list) alone in his era, a reason why he never won MVP and titles.

[Kblaze8855]

Give me one legitimate reason Payton would not get voted in by the "NBA Voters". I mean, do they have something against him?

I think you are looking at it the wrong way. Im not saying there need to be a reason for him to not make it. hes just one of a long list of people(longer than 50) who could deserve it. Most of the guys already in are those borderline iconic types and of those who arent...there are enough new guys to replace them that Payton could getl eft out like Nique did.


I was saying that the "General Consensus" or most, if not all, the Top 50 lists made have Gary Payton in there. So give me 1 reason why the "NBA Voters" for some reason wouldn't give the nod to Payton. Most have been putting Gary Payton in the Top 50, so I don't see why NBA voters won't. Give me 1 legitimate reason.

Already have. The mere fact that there are more than 50 players on the general level of those in the top 50 is reason enough he could fail to make it.



All I am saying is the general consensus is Payton = Top 50 easily, and that means MOST LIKELY Payton would be in Top 50 for NBA voters as well, not "I Doubt he gets voted in at Top 50"

Payton like Nique is one of those fringe guys. Nobdoy who made it the first time has gotten any worse since and hes not surpassed enough to make up for it. For him to make it a lot of legends would have to disregard a number of their contemporaries and the whole reason the old school guys got to vote is so every era would be represented.

Let me put it this way. I kinda see it like a challenged play in the NFL.

Payton has not had a career that would overturn the first decision. Not indisputable evidence. Duncan and Kobe have. AI might have(the MVP and 4 scoring titles help a lot). Payton is not one of those players. If its a challenged play...too many of the first 50 stand for Payton to get in I believe.

Duncan wins his challenge. Kobe wins his.

Nobody else is all that likely. Not when you look at who is already in.



Don't tell me you think DJ > GP? And Payton didn't play at Magic's time, or Magic would've said GP is the best defensive PG.

I dont think DJ>Payton but I think their careers arent nearly as different as their listing here. 28 to 82 is a massive change.

And there is no way of knowing that. Magic says a lot of things. Hes not the most consistient guy.



KBlaze, use your head.

What happens in a league when there is less competition than there should be? Think about it for a second. EVERYTHING will be easier to do, from scoring, to stats, to awards, to All-Star App.

Yet even with these easier to get stats...stats were worse than the 60s and around the same area as the 80s. And the only guys in the ABA on an NBA MVP level were Doc and a young Moses Malone who was a few years from that status. And as I said...if the ABA made guys great why did they continue to be great after the ABA? Cowens was about as productive as ever and Hayes did most of his winning post ABA.


For example, pretend Eastern Confrence was their own league (ABA), and all their was the West (NBA). And all the Western teams got their players redistributed to 30 teams. Well it will be easier to put up good numbers first of all, since you are the center of the team. 2nd of all, getting All-Star App. and All-NBA Teams wouldn't be as hard with less competition, and the same goes with the MVP award.

Less Competition is = things are easier.

If the ABA had an equal split with the NBA talent wise that would be a good comparison. But they didnt. There is a reason Doctor J went from being a 30/11/5 guy to a 21 a game playeri n the NBA. And charlie Scott went from a 33 a game player to the 20s. Why Brisker went from 29 a game i nthe ABA to 13 in the NBA one season later. Why Spencer Haywood was putting up wilt numbers(30/20) i nthe ABA and not the NBA. Barnes goes from 24 a game to 10. Gilmore putting up like 24 and 18. Billy Cunningham went to the ABA and won MVP with his NBA career starting to decline(he was 30 back when players retired around that time..he retired at 32).

The ABA was an inferior league with a fraction of the NBAs fans lesser players due to less money to give them and by the time the NBA took them in the ABA had been reduced to very few teams. Only 4 joined the NBA and the other 2 just got broken up. I think the only other two that existed then had folded before the merger. The ABA died and was never the equal of the NBA in talent or anything else.



Willis Reed won his 2 titles in the early 70s. That is arguably the most competitive Era of basketball. Give him props, he started in the late 60s and was great in the early 70s and won 2 titles, MVP, and everything then. Thats why.

Maybe you didnt notice but in Reeds second title winning season...in those early 70s youre praising...that was cowens MVP season. And Cowens first title was won in 1974...one season after Reed. A 73 title is praise worthy but a 73 MVP isnt...and a 73 title is great but a 74 one is inferior? That makes sense to you? Reeds gets credit and love for the 73 title when Cowens was MVP and leading a 68 win team the same year and won a title the next one. You really telling me that?




Well really, the big jump in basketball popularity came in different places. How many great players from the 60s are recognized vs. the ones in the 70s? The 60s might have had better best players, but I think more 70s players are remembered, just more popularity.

Lot of overlap. The only 2 big 70s stars who were not 60s stars too are Kareem and Doctor J. Gervin is remembered but he was in his peak from like 87 to 84. Earl Monroe was 60s and 70s. Oscar was mostly 60s but some 70s. Wilt was a bit of both. West too. Id say 55-65 isnt all that popular but 65-75 is about normal.


And really, 80s was the big jump. All I am saying is Basketball is more popular and competitive than it was 40 years ago. And also, many from the 60s also had to do their own things, the players in the 70s really weren't that much better, but should've gone further with what the legends from the 60s did. You know, "Based his game on..."

Has anyone ever gone further than what the legends from the 60s did? The only way to consider anyone the equal of the 60s greats is to dismiss the eras accomplishments. Russell and Wilt basically destroy everyone if you dont. 70s didnt have a Russell or Wilt...but they had Kareem. 60s had a couple possible GOATS(maybe 3 depending on how you feel about oscar). 70s had 1. 80s had 2. 90s had 1. We have none now but he had one a few years ago.

The 70s are the least acclaimed era....but I dont think its due to inferior players. 70s seemed like a "team" era to me more than a player era. Reeds knicks, Cowens Celtics, Barrys Warriors, Waltons Blazers, DJs Sonics, and so on. Bunch of "scrappy" ensemble teams without one GOAT level guy.



One again, Reed, Kareem, both were big in the Early 70s, a very compeitive Era in basketball. Cowens emerged after all the great 70s Teams fell, and ABA got at his peak. Think about it...

Seems you only think 1973 is the early 70s when its Reed in question and not Dave.

[LBJ 4 MVP]

How the hell is Dirk higher than Steve Nash?
And Ed Macauley should have made this list, take Big Ben out.

[TheReasonSF3]

My beef is Barkley at 21 while Rodman is at 47. Yeah, Barkley put up more points, but Rodman was a part of 2 dynasties and had more boards. Basketball is more than just offense.
If Rodman in his prime was on Barkley's Suns, I'm sure they wouldn't have won 62 games in 92-93.

[Kobe Bean Bryant]

Kobe top ten no doubt.

[-primetime-]

How the hell is Dirk higher than Steve Nash?
And Ed Macauley should have made this list, take Big Ben out.
Dirk is more dominate than Nash

[-primetime-]

this list should be a sticky or something...

[Selenium]

Thank God. I stopped voting after a while because I tired of being told my opinion held no value.

Someone sticky this.

Edit - I voted for Chris Mullin somewhere in the 70s I think. It's weird that I was dismissed for that, yet he ends up coming it at #83.

The most out-of-place player to me is Dennis Rodman. He should have been much lower in my opinion.

[D-Fence]

#47. Dennis Rodman - Probably the worst selection of the entire list. Yes, he owns rebounding titles, but he is just not as good as some people who didn't even make this list!
Who not on the list was greater?

Glen Rice
Larry Johnson
Bill Laimbeer
Rodman was certainly better than these 3 you mentioned as having should have made this list. Laimbeer had a good case to make this list, and he was probably more important to the 2 Pistons championships than Rodman. Rice and Johnson weren't great enough, though.

#45 - rodman (why is he even there?)

The most out-of-place player to me is Dennis Rodman. He should have been much lower in my opinion.

Defense is just as important to basketball as offense. Dennis Rodman was one of the greatest defensive players in NBA history; he was arguably the greatest forward ever defensively.

Basketball is a game of possessions; you can't score unless you have the ball. Rebounds create posessions. Rodman was one of the greatest rebounders ever--top 3 at least.

Rodman wasn't useless on offense, either; he was an especially good passer. And, his man couldn't leave him due to Rodman's offensive rebounding ability.

Look at some of the all-time great players offensively, but who weren't good defensively, who made this list, like Elgin Baylor (#14), Charles Barkley (#21), George Gervin (#34), Steve Nash (#49), Pete Maravich (#52), etc. What's wrong, then, with having an all-time great defensive player, who wasn't so good offensively, on this list, as well. Rodman, after all, isn't even the only such player on this list. Bill Russell (#6), Wes Unseld (#40), Dave DeBusschere (#67), Dikembe Mutombo (#80), etc. weren't big scorers, either. All-time greats aren't just scorers and so-called first options; they're also team players, great defenders, passers and rebounders.

Elliott Kalb in his ranking of the 50 Greatest Players, had Rodman at #30. Slam Magazine had him ranked #69. TNT in their Next 10 special nearly included him, and I recall Kenny Smith seemed to indicate that Rodman should've been included.

[AI Nuggets3]

wow did someone just compare Larry Johnson to Rodman??

im not even sure Larry Johnson would make the ISH top 200 list

[wally_world]

omfg... no Jack Sikma???!!!

[L.Kizzle]

Also, George Mikan and Bob Cousy are way too high, while Dr. J. is a little too high. These 3 should all be in top 15, maybe top 10 on a "the 100 players that meant most to the game of basketball" list, but Cousy as the 23rd GREATEST player of all time? Sorry, that's just flat out inaccurate.
Why weren't these guys great, because they played in a different era?

[Richie2k6]

yeah you said I keep overlapping your facts with my opinions...

well?...like I said, what else can I do?
Understand the facts and accept them?

That's like saying "This car is faster, and I have the stats to prove it." Yet you continue to say "I think the other car is faster", when all the facts show completely otherwise.

How the hell is Dirk higher than Steve Nash?
And Ed Macauley should have made this list, take Big Ben out.
There's no reason Nash > Dirk, at all. Dirk is better.

[IceMan2]

Is this a good idea or not?


Some of the smart voters in this need to get together and vote again. Posters like Kizzle, D-Fence, and others who have a good sense of history, and they should go around and do this

It will give us a good look

[ALlArOuNDPIaya]

Is this a good idea or not?


Some of the smart voters in this need to get together and vote again. Posters like Kizzle, D-Fence, and others who have a good sense of history, and they should go around and do this

It will give us a good look

And how do we decide who's "smart"

[haji_d_robertas]

Is this a good idea or not?


Some of the smart voters in this need to get together and vote again. Posters like Kizzle, D-Fence, and others who have a good sense of history, and they should go around and do this

It will give us a good look

I don't know, it's agreed that nobody's exactly happy with it. That sounds like democracy to me.

[IceMan2]

And how do we decide who's "smart"

People who have contributed positively the most or L.Kizzle can decide since this was his idea....he can choose who should do it again...its actually all up to him

[Dbrog]

Ben Wallace, Paul Pierce, Ray Allen should not be on the list IMO...maybe the only one i can see a case for is Allen.

[catzhernandez]

My beef is Barkley at 21 while Rodman is at 47. Yeah, Barkley put up more points, but Rodman was a part of 2 dynasties and had more boards. Basketball is more than just offense.




THANK YOU!!!!!:bowdown:

[catzhernandez]

Ben Wallace, Paul Pierce, Ray Allen should not be on the list IMO...maybe the only one i can see a case for is Allen.




just because he's like 2nd on the alltime 3's list... i do agree... is he second now?

[Dbrog]

just because he's like 2nd on the alltime 3's list... i do agree... is he second now?

Yuppers. 2nd place with 1,920 3's made. :)

also...
- Holds NBA record for most seasons leading the league in three-point field goals made with 3 (2001-02 with 229, 2002-03 with 201, 2005-06 with 269)
- Shares NBA record for most three-point field goals made in one half with 8 (April 14, 2002 vs. the Charlotte Hornets).

[G-train]

This may be true, but I'm equally sure that if Barkley was on the 95-96 Bulls roster, they wouldn't have won 72 games.

True, probably 75.

[sick_brah07]

Ben Wallace, Paul Pierce, Ray Allen should not be on the list IMO...maybe the only one i can see a case for is Allen.

4 defensive player of the year awards dont count for anything?

[L.Kizzle]

Using the same 100 players voted in, I came up my own 100 greatest players list:

What do y'all think? I did this in about 15 minutes just of of memory. I'll probably go over it later.



[B][U]L.Kizzle

[Richie2k6]

[QUOTE=L.Kizzle]Using the same 100 players voted in, I came up my own 100 greatest players list:

What do y'all think? I did this in about 15 minutes just of of memory. I'll probably go over it later.



[B][U]L.Kizzle

[i seen hippos]

So now T-mac is 33 spots higher than VC?

right.....

[dejordan]

So now T-mac is 33 spots higher than VC?

right.....
excellent dr. evil impression, hippos.

[D-Fence]

8. Oscar Robertson
Didn't you originally begin voting for Robertson around #3? I think #8 is more reasonable--putting him below Russell and Kareem.

You still have Julius Erving ahead of Moses Malone. I'd like to hear a good argument for that one.

It seems you've rethought Dave DeBusschere, as well.

You lowered the rankings of the few 40s/50s players I managed to rally for, so I obviously don't approve of that.

Those are a few things that jump out to me.

[Glove_20]

[QUOTE=L.Kizzle]Using the same 100 players voted in, I came up my own 100 greatest players list:

What do y'all think? I did this in about 15 minutes just of of memory. I'll probably go over it later.



[B][U]L.Kizzle

[L.Kizzle]

Didn't you originally begin voting for Robertson around #3? I think #8 is more reasonable--putting him below Russell and Kareem.

You still have Julius Erving ahead of Moses Malone. I'd like to hear a good argument for that one.

It seems you've rethought Dave DeBusschere, as well.

You lowered the rankings of the few 40s/50s players I managed to rally for, so I obviously don't approve of that.

Those are a few things that jump out to me.




Even worse than ISH's list....
D-Fence and Glove_20, I did this in about 10-15 minutes, I didn't really go back and look over the list yet.

[-primetime-]

No offense, but that is a terrible list. Russell has no business in the top 3 range. Erving was never better than Malone. Shaq is much better than Kareem, Russell, and Wilt. Kobe is leagues ahead of both Drexler and West. 33 sounds about right for West, not Kobe. Pettit is around top 80 all-time, and Mikan is around top 90. Neither deserve a top 20 spot. Oscar is nowhere near top 8. I think you meant top 50. Magic is top 3 at worst... He was way better than Russell.

Good picks:

Great job with Jordan at #1. He is the undisputed GOAT.
I agree with some of what you are saying...

I would take Shaq over them as well if I was starting a team...

and Erving does seem overrated on this list...

you can stop it with the top 80-90 talk though

and Kobe is unproven imo...but again if I was starting a team I would probably pick him over West and Drexler...



this list was based highly upon achievements and the players of old deserve respect even if they are not as athletic as the players of today....they are the ones that pathed the road for Kobe to walk on

[D-Fence]

D-Fence and Glove_20, I did this in about 10-15 minutes, I didn't really go back and look over the list yet.
Okay... so, why'd you post it, then? Or, what did you intend with the list?

Anyhow, if you're going to go back and look it over and create your own list again, I look forward to seeing it.

And, I think if I were to make my own such list, I'd contradict my voting in ISH's list at some point. I spent a good deal of time thinking and considering for ISH's list, but I think with more time and my own list, I'd change something, especially due to limited information on players from long ago, the difficulties or era comparisons, and that rankings are largely relative.

[catzhernandez]

i dont like ur list kizzleshnizzle kobe at 33??!!:roll:

[Dbrog]

4 defensive player of the year awards dont count for anything?

1st of all, some of those are disputable. 2nd, unfortunately when you are talking about the top 100 players ever, the DPOY awards don't count for enough if there is the worst offense in the NBA paired with it.

[Soundwave]

Nash should be higher on the list than Dirk and Kevin Johnson.

[LBJ 4 MVP]

Nash should be higher on the list than Dirk and Kevin Johnson.
co sign.

TOO HIGH:
David Robinson - 19 - He was very athletic and skilled at the center position, but put him above Kobe, Barkley, Stockton and Isaiah, I think not.

Gary Payton - 28 - I'm sure Glove_20 had to do alot of convincing there, The Glove was a skilled offensive player and great on defense, but he is a few spots too high at 28.

Allen Iverson - 31 - Great scorer, passer, great at playing the passing lanes, but hasnt been strong enough through his entire career to be this high.

Tracy McGrady - 53 - Good all around player, but not as consistent as i would like him to be, and not worth a top 55 spot.

TOO LOW:
Kobe Bryant - 24 - One of the most skilled offensive players of all time, a hard worker and a great defensive force as well, I put him top 20 at least.

Dominique Wilkins - 43 - Greatly under-rated all around player, great offensive foot work and power. I'd put him in the 37-40 range at the lowest.

David Thompson - 69 - Great player, not a good shooter by any means, but a very athletic guy who could get to the hoop with ease, set many records in college, but his career was shortened due to drug problems. 59-63 at the lowest.

WHY?
Ben Wallace - 99 - What the hell is he doing anywhere near this list?

[L.Kizzle]

co sign.
WHY?
Ben Wallace - 99 - What the hell is he doing anywhere near this list?
Basetball is not just an offensive sport, hence guys like Rodman, Mutombo on the list. Wallace is a 4 time DPOY, About 7 time All-D first team, 4 time NBA All-Star, 5 time All-NBA Team Member and a champion.

[Richie2k6]

Allen Iverson - 31 - Great scorer, passer, great at playing the passing lanes, but hasnt been strong enough through his entire career to be this high.
Huh? He's been an amazing player since his rookie year.

[LBJ 4 MVP]

Basetball is not just an offensive sport, hence guys like Rodman, Mutombo on the list. Wallace is a 4 time DPOY, About 7 time All-D first team, 4 time NBA All-Star, 5 time All-NBA Team Member and a champion.
Why is he listed higher than Mark Aguire, Rolando Blackman, Jack Sikma, and Ed Macauley, among others. He doesnt deserve to be on this list.

[gabeh1018]

heres a GREAT IDEA, hopefully it hasnt been done before, but if your life was on the line and you had to assemble a starting 5 of current and past players respective to their positions... who would you choose...

[L.Kizzle]

Why is he listed higher than Mark Aguire, Rolando Blackman, Jack Sikma, and Ed Macauley, among others. He doesnt deserve to be on this list.
Mark was only a better scorer then Beg Ben. Ben Wallace = more All-Star games, more All-NBA teams (none actually for Mark) More All-D teams and 4 DPOYS,

Same with Sikma, only a better scorer then Ben. He did have more All-Star squads then Ben (7-4)

Same for Ed Macauley.

[fleet40]

I would take Bill Laimbeer over Ben Wallace, thanks.

Nice to see Rodman get some recognition, Rodman and Laimbeer seem to get shafted. Both great players.

[Lebron23]

KJ being as top 40 player today means he was a top 30 player when the NBA at 50 list was created 11 years ago. Why wasn't he on the list or even mentioned with the snubs (Nique, McAdoo, English) around the 50 greatest times. How is he not in the hall of fame if he is a top 40 player All-Time. He has only been nominated once for the Hall and was turned down, (that was in 2006) and he wasn't even on the ballot this past seasons Hall of Fame induction.


I'm not saying KJ wasn't a great player, but I think you and G-Matt overrate him a bit. OK, the numbers, him being one of only 3 to do ___ you post that every time we bring up a KJ discussion, but that doesn't really make him a top 40 player at #46.


Tim Hardawy took a team to the Conference Finals, been to the playoff many times with GSW and the Heat. Has just as much accolades as KJ (actually has more), guys played in the same era, yet he is #94 and KJ is #46 and you think he should be higher. Sidney Moncrief has more accolades, a better defender, and about equal efficent scorer as Kev and took his team to the Conference Finals three times, yet he's #64 and KJ is #46.

http://blogs.bet.com/news/playahater/wp-content/uploads/2008/03/johnsonmayor.jpg

I beg to disagree L-Kizzle i personally think that Kevin Johnson is one of the greatest Point Guard in the NBA.

Kevin Johnson wasn't voted in the NBA First Team, but he had a better statsline than 2X MVP Steve Nash during his prime, and he was also a much better 1 on 1 defender.

The good thing about Kevin Johnson he only stands at 5'11 3/4, but he shoots at least .500 from the field, and He is one of only three players in history to average at least 20.0 points and 12.0 assists in a season.

I bet he would average more points and assists while playing under Mike D'Antoni's Run and Gun Offense.

Even though he never won an MVP Award while playing for the Phoenix Suns. I still rank him as one of the best Point Guard that ever played in the NBA in the late 1980's and early 1990's.

1988-89 ( All NBA 2nd Team)

20.4 ppg, 12.4 apg, 1.7 spg, 4.2 rpg, 0.3 bpg, .505 FG%, .882 FT%

Team Record: 55 wins-27 losses

1989-90 ( All NBA 2nd Team)

22.5 ppg, 11.4 apg, 1.3 spg, 3.6 rpg, 0.2 bpg, .499 FG%, .838 FT%

Team Record: 54 wins- 28 losses

1990-91 ( All NBA 2nd Team)

22.2 ppg, 10.1 apg, 3.5 rpg, 2.1 spg, 0.1 spg, .516 FG%, .843 FT%

Team Record: 55 wins-27 losses

1991-92 ( All NBA 3rd Team)

19.7 ppg, 10.7 apg, 3.7 rpg, 1.5 spg, 0.3 bpg, .807 FT%, .479 FG%

Team Record: 53 wins-29 losses

1993-94 ( All NBA 2nd Team)

20.0 ppg, 9.7 apg, 2.5 rpg, 1.9 spg, 0.4 bpg, .487 FG%, .819 FT%

Team Record: 56 wins-26 losses

Kevin Johnson is the greatest PG of the Phoenix Suns Franchise.

[emsteez forreal]

i've got a problem, players from the '50s and '60s shouldn't even be on the list . like bob cousy over kobe? yeah . sure .

[AllenIverson3]

this is a ****ed up list. look at Charles Barkely being at 22, haha the dude is in top 10 all time and EVERYONE knows that! :banghead:

[Psileas]

i've got a problem, players from the '50s and '60s shouldn't even be on the list . like bob cousy over kobe? yeah . sure .

Yeah, how about just adding only players playing from 2010 onwards? :rolleyes:

Innovator of passing, playmaking and fast-break creating. 1 MVP, 2 ASG MVP's, 8 assist titles, 6 NBA titles. Cousy will forever be a legend.

[Dasher]

After looking over the list again:
Zeke and Elvin Hayes should be ranked over Karl Malone. David Robinson also has an argument to be ranked over Karl.

I would put Shaq above both Magic AND Bird.

Kobe hasn't done anything to be ranked above Clyde Drexler, and Rick Barry should be ranked over both.

Patrick Ewing should be ranked above Scottie Pippen, who should be in the range of the 40s.

Sidney Moncrief should have cracked the top 40 and also has an argument to be ranked over Pippen.

Robert Parish being in above Nate Thurmond should be fixed.

Tmac being ranked as high as he is silly, and he has not had a better career than his cousin Vince Carter.

Mitch Richmond should be ranked ahead of Reggie Miller.

Walt Bellamy in the 70s....SMH

If Big Ben is on the list, then Mark Eaton should be as well.

Fat Lever not being on the list is jokes.

Drazen should be on the list, and so should Detlef Shremph.

Walt Frazier should be above AI, and I would slot him above Willis. Jason Kidd also has an argument over the answer.

8-15 could be scrambled and I would not complain, all the players in that range are interchangeable.

Pistol Pete is WAY too high.

[KB42PAH]

this is a ****ed up list. look at Charles Barkely being at 22, haha the dude is in top 10 all time and EVERYONE knows that! :banghead:

LMAO AT BARKLEY BEING TOP 10 ALL TIME!

M.Jordan
K.Bryant
S. O'neal
M. Johnson
K. Abdul-Jabar
H. Olajuwon
Kevin Garnett
Tim Duncan
Lebron James
Wilt Chamberlain

[KB42PAH]

Kobe hasn't done anything to be ranked above Clyde Drexler, and Rick Barry should be ranked over both.



:roll: :lol :oldlol:

Man the LOW IQ on here must be contagious.

[ACCBaller1403]

LMAO AT BARKLEY BEING TOP 10 ALL TIME!

M.Jordan
K.Bryant
S. O'neal
M. Johnson
K. Abdul-Jabar
H. Olajuwon
Kevin Garnett
Tim Duncan
Lebron James
Wilt Chamberlain

You have got to be kidding me...is this in order? And this is seriously your top 10 players of all time?

[west]

it's funny that Ray Allen ahead of Paul Pierce 1 year ago:rockon:

[KB42PAH]

You have got to be kidding me...is this in order? And this is seriously your top 10 players of all time?

Thats not the order, but thats the top 10 baby. No ifs, ands or buts about it.

[KB42PAH]

Any list without kobe in top 5 is a joke.

lmao at the overrating of legend players like Dr. J who are overrated. If Dr.J is up there, why isn't Lebron up there?
lmao at larry bird being so high. keith van horn+passing.
lmao at some of the pathetic garbage names you have on that list before kobe, lebron or KG for that matter.

[ACCBaller1403]

Thats not the order, but thats the top 10 baby. No ifs, ands or buts about it.

What has Lebron or KG done to deserve to be in that list? Where are Bird, Russell, West, Oscar? Hell, I wouldn't even have Kobe in my top 10 all time.

[ACCBaller1403]

Any list without kobe in top 5 is a joke.

lmao at the overrating of legend players like Dr. J who are overrated. If Dr.J is up there, why isn't Lebron up there?
lmao at larry bird being so high. keith van horn+passing.
lmao at some of the pathetic garbage names you have on that list before kobe, lebron or KG for that matter.

So you clearly never saw Larry Bird or Keith Van Horn play. Dr. J is in very few people's top 10's and he also accomplished more than Lebron has thus far. Kobe is borderline top 10, and if KG wasn't traded last year, noone would even have him top 20 let alone top 10.

Stop the insanity.

[KB42PAH]

So you clearly never saw Larry Bird or Keith Van Horn play. Dr. J is in very few people's top 10's and he also accomplished more than Lebron has thus far. Kobe is borderline top 10, and if KG wasn't traded last year, noone would even have him top 20 let alone top 10.

Stop the insanity.

Their is a severe case of misjudgment people use to evaluate players. Players should be evalated primarily by their skillsets, overall completeness, and what they do on the court. They should be ranked individually without influece of their teammates, team record, or achievments ( you can't judge a player by their GM). Sure championships are important, but it means nothing really. Horry has 7, Russell has 11- they mean nothing to me. A player could have more rings, more MVPs, it doesnt affect the rankings.

Fact of the matter is I have always had KG in my top 10. He is one of the most unique players of all-time. 6''11 (realy 7, but w/e) can do it all. Impeccable jumpshooter, great post moves that bring a tear to your eye, passing, rebounding, passion, he has it all.

Kobe - Nothing really needs to be said. The most skilled player to ever live. "Yes he is." - Phil jackson on whether Kobe is more skilled than Jordan. Get your head out of your asses people. No one can do what Kobe does on the basketball floor. He has no weaknesses. "Kobe is the PERFECT basketball player." - Rick Carlisle.

Lebron is a PF with PG speed that doesnt' even need a jumpshot to be effective. He would destory most people on that list and his impact on the game is huge.

All 3 are top 10 easily. Lebron (will be be top 10 by end of his career for other people), but we've already seen his prime, so hes in it already for me.

[ACCBaller1403]

Their is a severe case of misjudgment people use to evaluate players. Players should be evalated primarily by their skillsets, overall completeness, and what they do on the court. They should be ranked individually without influece of their teammates, team record, or achievments ( you can't judge a player by their GM). Sure championships are important, but it means nothing really. Horry has 7, Russell has 11- they mean nothing to me. A player could have more rings, more MVPs, it doesnt affect the rankings.

Fact of the matter is I have always had KG in my top 10. He is one of the most unique players of all-time. 6''11 (realy 7, but w/e) can do it all. Impeccable jumpshooter, great post moves that bring a tear to your eye, passing, rebounding, passion, he has it all.

Kobe - Nothing really needs to be said. The most skilled player to ever live. "Yes he is." - Phil jackson on whether Kobe is more skilled than Jordan. Get your head out of your asses people. No one can do what Kobe does on the basketball floor. He has no weaknesses. "Kobe is the PERFECT basketball player." - Rick Carlisle.

Lebron is a PF with PG speed that doesnt' even need a jumpshot to be effective. He would destory most people on that list and his impact on the game is huge.

All 3 are top 10 easily. Lebron (will be be top 10 by end of his career for other people), but we've already seen his prime, so hes in it already for me.

You can't just throw out accomplishments like they're nothing. And how, if you're ranking it based on skill, is Bird not on your list? Arguably the most skilled, intelligent player of all time isn't in your top 10.

If you're ranking based solely on skills as well, I'd have Barkley up there, Lebron would not be up there, and Kobe would definately not be higher than Jordan. West was as skilled as you can be in basketball and he's not up there.

[HisJoeness]

:roll: :lol :oldlol:

Man the LOW IQ on here must be contagious.

They're catching it from you. You're the monkey from Outbreak, you're carrying the Motaba Virus.

Anyway, I only skimmed the list and on based on that my opinions are. . .

. . .Ben Wallace should be no where near this list.

I think Tom Chambers should be higher. Dude was one of the most underrated Forwards of the 80's.

I'd switch Hakeem and Russell.

I'd make Barkley Top 20, push Robinson and Mikan down a little.

Kobe is fine where he is, maybe even a little high.

[Niquesports]

After looking over the list again:
Zeke and Elvin Hayes should be ranked over Karl Malone. David Robinson also has an argument to be ranked over Karl.

I would put Shaq above both Magic AND Bird.

Kobe hasn't done anything to be ranked above Clyde Drexler, and Rick Barry should be ranked over both.

Patrick Ewing should be ranked above Scottie Pippen, who should be in the range of the 40s.

Sidney Moncrief should have cracked the top 40 and also has an argument to be ranked over Pippen.

Robert Parish being in above Nate Thurmond should be fixed.

Tmac being ranked as high as he is silly, and he has not had a better career than his cousin Vince Carter.

Mitch Richmond should be ranked ahead of Reggie Miller.

Walt Bellamy in the 70s....SMH

If Big Ben is on the list, then Mark Eaton should be as well.

Fat Lever not being on the list is jokes.

Drazen should be on the list, and so should Detlef Shremph.

Walt Frazier should be above AI, and I would slot him above Willis. Jason Kidd also has an argument over the answer.

8-15 could be scrambled and I would not complain, all the players in that range are interchangeable.

Pistol Pete is WAY too high.


You were doing fine with elvin and Zeke over Karl but Shaq over Bird and magic Im just shaking my head.
Why is big ben even talked about in a All Time Great List.

[CasterL]

You have got to be kidding me...is this in order? And this is seriously your top 10 players of all time?

no chance

think iverson should be lower
karl malone should be lower
rodman should be lower
bill walton should be lower
kevin johnson should be lower
t mac should be a lil lower

barkley should be higher
clyde should be higher
nique should be higher
c webb should be considerably higher
kg should be a lil higher
nash sould be a lil higher
ZO SHOULD BE HIGHER


in a few years when players like lebron wade bosh amare and others jump on this list chaos will ensue

[gleden]

Any list without kobe in top 5 is a joke.

lmao at the overrating of legend players like Dr. J who are overrated. If Dr.J is up there, why isn't Lebron up there?
lmao at larry bird being so high. keith van horn+passing.
lmao at some of the pathetic garbage names you have on that list before kobe, lebron or KG for that matter.

buddy wer talking about all time and not past 10 years. You know nothing since you have kobe,lebron,garnett,duncan, and shaq all in top 10.

Right now Shaq is the only one that top50 all time.

[KB42PAH]

You can't just throw out accomplishments like they're nothing. And how, if you're ranking it based on skill, is Bird not on your list? Arguably the most skilled, intelligent player of all time isn't in your top 10.

-Poor, unfundamental jumpshot mechanics (KB = perfect jumpshot)
-A defensive liability (only plays 1 side of the floor, unlike KB who is 9 time defensive member)
-Slow foot speed, quickness (no where near KB)
-His finish ability around the rim is no where near kobe



If you're ranking based solely on skills as well, I'd have Barkley up there,

Lacked a 3 point shot and the finish ability of KB. Lacked the killer instinct, clutchness, off-hand abilites of Kobe as well.


Kobe would definately not be higher than Jordan. West was as skilled as you can be in basketball and he's not up there.

West? Please tell me thats a joke. He had no off-hand, not a great finisher around rim ( compared to KB), nowhere as good defensively.

Jordan is the only one thats in same boat as kobe skill wise.

Kobe vs. Jordan (Skil wise)

Kobe: Better shooter ( Midrange, Longrange), Better Ball-handler, Better scorer, better off-hand, better killer-instinct, better passer, better playmaker

Jordan: Smarter player, better inside player, better post player, more consistent defensively.

[Dasher]

As an offensive force at the least Shaq is their equal. On defense it is not close. Neither of them are in Shaq's class on that end of the court. If you take away the whole "saving of the NBA" out of the equation, people would be able to objectively look at these players, and correctly conclude that Shaq is better than both Magic and Bird.

[CasterL]

-Poor, unfundamental jumpshot mechanics (KB = perfect jumpshot)
-A defensive liability (only plays 1 side of the floor, unlike KB who is 9 time defensive member)
-Slow foot speed, quickness (no where near KB)
-His finish ability around the rim is no where near kobe



Lacked a 3 point shot and the finish ability of KB. Lacked the killer instinct, clutchness, off-hand abilites of Kobe as well.



West? Please tell me thats a joke. He had no off-hand, not a great finisher around rim ( compared to KB), nowhere as good defensively.

Jordan is the only one thats in same boat as kobe skill wise.

Kobe vs. Jordan (Skil wise)

Kobe: Better shooter ( Midrange, Longrange), Better Ball-handler, Better scorer, better off-hand, better killer-instinct, better passer, better playmaker

Jordan: Smarter player, better inside player, better post player, more consistent defensively.

bold is your stupidest of many stupid statments. jordan is probably the most determined and insanly strong willed of all time , his 'killer instinct' ****s on kobe

and yes hes a better scorer than kobe as well goes without saying

[crisoner]

A whole grip of Lakers in the top ten...I LOVE IT!!!

[TmacsRockets]

Jordan is the only one thats in same boat as kobe skill wise.

Kobe vs. Jordan (Skil wise)

Kobe: Better shooter ( Midrange, Longrange), Better Ball-handler, Better scorer, better off-hand, better killer-instinct, better passer, better playmaker



Please dude. If Kobe was a better shooter he would have shot a consistent 50% from the field. He hasn't. Jordan shoots better from the field, has a higher efg% and a higher ts%.
Jordan is the much better scorer quite easily. Only player to average 30+ ppg in the playoffs in nba history and did it in the season and finals as well.
30.1 ppg in the season, 33.4 ppg in the playoffs, 33.6 ppg in the finals

Kobe in the season is at 25.0 ppg, he is at 24.3 ppg in the playoffs and at 23.0 ppg in the finals.

Jordan has 10 scoring titles to Kobe's 2 scoring titles and Kobe in the playoffs has never even averaged in any given year what MJ's career playoffs average was.

Kobe is also nowhere near the playmaker Jordan was and definitely doesn't have MJ's killer instinct.

I don't know where you got that Kobe was even close to Jordan, but the fact that a guy doesn't show up in the finals and plays bad in every one should tell you about his killer instinct. A guy who has been in 5 finals and yet has 0 finals mvp's vs a guy who has been in 6 finals and has 6 finals mvp's.

[CasterL]

case closed^^^

[KB42PAH]

Please dude. If Kobe was a better shooter he would have shot a consistent 50% from the field. He hasn't. Jordan shoots better from the field, has a higher efg% and a higher ts%.

1) FG% has nothing to do with Shooting ability
2) 2001-present is the Zone era of basketball. Jordan shot 42% in zone era.


Jordan is the much better scorer quite easily. Only player to average 30+ ppg in the playoffs in nba history and did it in the season and finals as well.
30.1 ppg in the season, 33.4 ppg in the playoffs, 33.6 ppg in the finals
Kobe in the season is at 25.0 ppg, he is at 24.3 ppg in the playoffs and at 23.0 ppg in the finals.
Jordan has 10 scoring titles to Kobe's 2 scoring titles and Kobe in the playoffs has never even averaged in any given year what MJ's career playoffs average was.

1) Kobe didnt' get playing time early in his career
2) He played alongside Shaq, yet still put up huge numbers
3) Season averages mean nothing really. Kobe could have gotten the scoring title from 2002-now every single year, but he has played in best interest of the team.

Kobe Bryant's Scoring accomplishments that blow Jordan out the water:

-81 points in a game
-62 points in 33 minutes, outscoring dallas 62-61
-40 points in first 18 minutes of the game (42 at half)
-4 straight 45+ point games
-4 straight 50+ point games
-9 straigh 40+ point games
-13 straight 35+ point games
-551 points in 13 games
-43.4 ppg january 2006
-40.1 ppg april 2006
-42.4 ppg February 2003
-only player to score 2800 points and 180 threes in a season
-92 Career 40+ point games
-24 career 50+ point games
-4 career 60+ point games

Jordan has never outscored a team himself.
Jordan has never had 81
Jordan never had 50+ in 4 straight
Jordan never average 40 ppg for a month (Kobe has done it 3 times)


Kobe is also nowhere near the playmaker Jordan was and definitely doesn't have MJ's killer instinct.

Kobe is 100% fearless on the court to take and make anyshot. Jordan didnt' have that. He lacked confidence beyond the arc, what if your team was down 3 or 4 points? I would much rather have kobe's unstoppable 3 point shot to will my team back. This is why Wade and Lebron are useless in tight games or when their team is down by 3 or more points in close games final seconds.


I don't know where you got that Kobe was even close to Jordan, but the fact that a guy doesn't show up in the finals and plays bad in every one should tell you about his killer instinct. A guy who has been in 5 finals and yet has 0 finals mvp's vs a guy who has been in 6 finals and has 6 finals mvp's.

2004 Pistons and 2008 Celtics >>> Anything Jordan faced in Finals.
Jordan' team>>>>Kobe's team
Jordan's teammates>>>Kobes teammates
This era 2000-present>>90s'

Finals MVP = irrelevant.

Kobe is still only 30, I know that makes you piss your pants. He will win 2-4 more rings still. Bynum will be the best center soon. Pau is top 3 PF. Tmac meanwhile is out 3 weeks and will accomplish nothing .

[TmacsRockets]

1) FG% has nothing to do with Shooting ability
2) 2001-present is the Zone era of basketball. Jordan shot 42% in zone era.



1) Kobe didnt' get playing time early in his career
2) He played alongside Shaq, yet still put up huge numbers
3) Season averages mean nothing really. Kobe could have gotten the scoring title from 2002-now every single year, but he has played in best interest of the team.

Kobe Bryant's Scoring accomplishments that blow Jordan out the water:

-81 points in a game
-62 points in 33 minutes, outscoring dallas 62-61
-40 points in first 18 minutes of the game (42 at half)
-4 straight 45+ point games
-4 straight 50+ point games
-9 straigh 40+ point games
-13 straight 35+ point games
-551 points in 13 games
-43.4 ppg january 2006
-40.1 ppg april 2006
-42.4 ppg February 2003
-only player to score 2800 points and 180 threes in a season
-92 Career 40+ point games
-24 career 50+ point games
-4 career 60+ point games

Jordan has never outscored a team himself.
Jordan has never had 81
Jordan never had 50+ in 4 straight
Jordan never average 40 ppg for a month (Kobe has done it 3 times)



Kobe is 100% fearless on the court to take and make anyshot. Jordan didnt' have that. He lacked confidence beyond the arc, what if your team was down 3 or 4 points? I would much rather have kobe's unstoppable 3 point shot to will my team back. This is why Wade and Lebron are useless in tight games or when their team is down by 3 or more points in close games final seconds.



2004 Pistons and 2008 Celtics >>> Anything Jordan faced in Finals.
Jordan' team>>>>Kobe's team
Jordan's teammates>>>Kobes teammates
This era 2000-present>>90s'

Finals MVP = irrelevant.

Kobe is still only 30, I know that makes you piss your pants. He will win 2-4 more rings still. Bynum will be the best center soon. Pau is top 3 PF. Tmac meanwhile is out 3 weeks and will accomplish nothing .


http://www.usatoday.com/sports/scores97/97132/97132380.htm

This is what Kobe did in the handcheck era.

He averaged 7 ppg and got locked down by Jeff Hornecek.



The Lakers had a chance to win it in regulation, but Kobe Bryant, who finished
with 11 points, shot an air ball at the buzzer.

The 18-year-old Bryant would miss three more shots, including
two air balls, in the overtime.




Kobe's accomplishments don't even compare to Jordan's.

90's > 00's.

90's had dominant big men which is what wins championships. 00's don't have it that is why some of the worst teams ever have gotten to the finals. 2001 Sixers, 2002 and 2003 Nets, 2006 Heat, 2007 Cavs, and the 2004 Pistons.

In fact it has only been in this era where top 5 players all time haven't won finals mvp's. 2004 - Billups, 2007 Parker, 2008 Pierce.


Playoffs

Most Points Per Game (min. 25 games)
33.4 by Michael Jordan (179 games)

Most Points in a Game
63 by Michael Jordan

Most 50 Point Games
8 by Michael Jordan

Most 40 Point Games
38 by Michael Jordan

Most 30 Point Games
109 by Michael Jordan

Most 20 Point Games
174 by Michael Jordan (he played 179 playoff games and scored under 20 only 5 times)

-Highest PER Efficiency Playoffs: 28.59



MJ:
NBA Regular-season records Michael Jordan holds:
-Most seasons leading league in scoring: 10
-Highest scoring average, career: 30.12ppg
-Most consecutive points, one game: 23
-Most seasons leading league in field goals made: 10
-Most consecutive gms in double figures in scoring:
866
-Most consecutive seasons leading PER: 7
-Highest career PER: 27.91
-Oldest player to score 40+ points: age 40 (43 pts)
-Oldest player to score 50+ points: age 38 (51 pts)

NBA Regular-season records Michael Jordan shares:
-Most consecutive seasons leading league in scoring:
7 (tied with Wilt Chamberlain)
-Most consecutive seasons, 2,000 plus points: 11 (Tied
with Malone)


NBA Playoff records Michael Jordan holds:
-Highest scoring average, career: 33.4ppg
-Record Total points: 5987
-Record Most FTS made: 1463
-Most points playoffs, one-game: 63
-Most points playoffs, three-game series: 135 (vs.
Miami, 1992)
-Most Points playoffs, five-game series: 226 (vs.
Cleveland, 1988)
-Most field goals made playoffs, three-game series:
53 (vs. Miami, 1992)
-Most field goals made playoffs, five-game series: 86
(vs. Philadelphia, 1990)
-Most field goals made playoffs, six-game series: 101
(vs. Phoenix, 1993)
-Most consecutive 50pt games: 2
-Most consecutive 45pt games: 3
-Most consecutive games, 20 plus points: 60
-Most free throws made, one quarter: 13
-Most free throws attempted, one quarter: 14
-Most 50 point games: 8
-Most 40 point games: 39
-Most consecutive points: 23

NBA Playoff records Michael Jordan shares:
-Most field goals, in a game: 24 (vs. Cleveland, May
1, 1988; tied with two others)
-Most three-point field goals made, one half: 6
(first half vs. Portland, June 3, 1992; tied with four
others)

NBA Finals records Michael Jordan holds:
- Highest Scoring average: 33.6
-Most points, six-game series: 246 (vs. Phoenix,
1993)
-Most field goals made, five-game series: 63 (vs.
L.A. Lakers, 1991)
-Most field goals made, six-game series: 101 (vs.
Phoenix, 1993)
-Most steals, five-game series: 14 (vs. L.A. Lakers,
1991)
-Highest scoring average, one series: 41.0 (vs.
Phoenix, 1993)
-Most consecutive games, 40-plus points: 4 (June 11,
1993 to June 18, 1993)
-Most consecutive 30 point games: 9
-Most consecutive games, 20-plus points: 29 (June 22,

1991 to June 1997)
-Most points, one-half: 35 (vs. Portland, June 3,
1992)
-Most consecutive field goals: 13 (Vs. LA)
-Most consecutive points: 23 (Vs. Seattle)
-Most Finals MVPs: 6



Here is Kobe's

KOBE:
NBA Regular-season records Kobe holds:
-All-rookie game (now defunct): 31 points

NBA Regular-season records Kobe Shares:
-Most 3 pointers in one game: 12 (shared with 1
player)
-Most 3 pointers in one half: 8 (5 players)
-Most consecutive 3 pointers: 9 (2 players)
-Most free throws made in one quarter: 14 (5 players)
-Most free throws attempted one quarter: 16 (6
players)

NBA Playoff Records Kobe holds:
-NONE

NBA Playoff Records Kobe Shares:
-NONE

NBA Finals records Kobe holds:
-NONE

NBA Finals records Kobe Shares:
-NONE


Conclusion: MJ still owns the most
scoring records as well as ALMOST ALL THE PLAYOFF
Records. Take a look at the all time scoring feats at
the bottom. MJ has 21 of them and the most important
ones, Wilt has 16, Kobe has 1. Take away Wilt and MJ
climbs to 26 and Kobe has 8. Below that are MJ's
records and KB's records. Not even close.

Here's a list of ALL-TIME SCORING RECORDS.

- Highest career scoring average: MJ 30.12
- Highest career playoff scoring average: MJ 33.4
- Highest career Finals scoring average: MJ 33.6
- Highest single season scoring average: Wilt 50.4
- Highest single series playoff average: West 46.3
- Highest single Finals series average: MJ 41.0
- Most seasons leading league in scoring: MJ 10
- Most consecutive seasons leading in scoring: MJ,
Wilt tied at 7
- Most 50 point games: Wilt 118
- Most 50 point games playoffs: MJ 8
- Most 40 point games: Wilt 271
- Most 40 point games playoffs: MJ 42
- Most consecutive 60 point games: Wilt 4
- Most consecutive 50 point games: Wilt 7
- Most consecutive 50 point games in playoffs: MJ 2
- Most consecutive 45 point games: Wilt 7
- Most consecutive 45 point games playoffs: MJ 3
- Most consecutive 40 point games: Wilt 14
- Most consecutive 40 point games rookie: AI 5
- Most consecutive 40 point games playoffs: West 6
- Most consecutive 40 point games finals: MJ 4
- Most consecutive 35 point games: Wilt 33
- Most consecutive 30 point games: Wilt 65
- Most consecutive 30 point games playoffs: Elgin 11
- Most consecutive 30 point games finals: MJ 9
- Most consecutive 20 point games: Wilt 126
- Most consecutive 20 point games playoffs: MJ 60
- Most consecutive 20 point games finals: MJ 35
- Most consecutive double figures scoring: MJ 866
- Most consecutive points in one game: MJ 23
- Most consecutive points in one game playoffs: MJ 23
- Highest scoring game: Wilt 100
- Highest scoring game playoffs: MJ 63
- Highest scoring game finals: Elgin 61
- Highest scoring game rookie: Wilt 58
- Highest scoring all-star game: Wilt 42
- Highest scoring all-rookie game: Kobe 31
- Most points in 3 quarters: Wilt 69
- Most points in one half: Wilt 59
- Most points one half playoffs: Sleepy Floyd 39
- Most points in one half finals: MJ 35
- Most points one half all-star game: Rice 24
- Most points in one quarter: Gervin 33
- Most points in one quarter playoffs: Sleepy Floyd 29
- Most points in one quarter finals: Isiah 25
- Most points in one quarter all-star game: Rice 20
- Most points in OT: Arenas 16
- Most points in OT playoffs: Drexler 13
- Most points in OT in finals: Havlicek, Laimbeer,
Ainge tied at 9
- Oldest to score 50: MJ 51 at age 38
- Oldest to score 40: MJ 43 at age 40


Oh when did Kobe get a finals MVP?


Oh and how many times has Kobe scored 37 points in the finals?

Answer: 0


How many times has Jordan scored 37 in the finals?

Answer: 15


http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/playoffs2008/columns/story?columnist=hollinger_john&page=FinalsPerformances-Worst



Kobe Bryant, L.A. Lakers, 2004
Lakers vs. Pistons -- Bryant's PER 14.2
With his feud against Shaq escalating and the series getting away from the Lakers, Bryant began taking whatever shot struck him. Mostly, they struck the rim -- he shot 38.1 percent and had nearly as many turnovers (18) as assists (22) as Detroit romped in five games.



Oh and MJ has 5 of the top 15 greatest finals performances.

MVP's - Jordan = 5; Kobe = 1

Titles - Jordan = 6 (as the #1 Option); Kobe = 3 (in the shadow of another)

Finals MVP's - Jordan = 6; Kobe = 0

DPOY - Jordan = 1; Kobe = 0

Scoring Titles - Jordan = 10; Kobe = 2

Career PPG - Jordan = 30.1 (Highest Ever); Kobe = 25.0

Playoffs PPG - Jordan = 33.4 (Highest Ever); Kobe = 24.3

Playoff Points - Jordan = 5987 - Most Ever Points (179 games); Kobe = 3686 (152 games)

FG% - Jordan - 50% Career; Kobe = 45% Career Thus Far

Playoff FG% - Jordan = 49% Career; Kobe = 44% Career Thus Far

PER (Offensive and Defensive Rating) - Jordan Career = 27.91 (highest ever); Kobe = 23.57

Steals - Jordan = 2.4 SPG Career (with 3 Steals Titles); Kobe = 1.5 SPG

Blocks - Jordan = 0.8 BPG Career (most blocks ever for a guard); Kobe = 0.6


Kobe has never scored 50 in the finals
Kobe never has scored 40 in the finals.
Kobe never has scored 37 in the finals.
Kobe never has hit 6 3's in the finals.
Kobe has never averaged 27.3 ppg or more in any finals.
Kobe never has even led a team in the finals.


Kobe has never averaged 40 ppg in any playoff series whereas MJ has done so 6 times.


No contest,


Oh and if you want to battle show me his finals mvp's.


I know that pisses you off to see how Billups and Pierce are better than Kobe by the fact they outplayed him in the finals and Pierce did so with a busted knee cap.


Compare Kobe to someone like Vince Carter, he is more on his level. Because Vince Carter actually scored 50 in regulation in the playoffs something Kobe never did.

[KB42PAH]

Lmao desperation sets in

posting numbers from 17 and 18 year old kobe:roll: :lol pathetic.

Then comparing jordan's stats in isolation era to Kobe's zone era. lmao

desperation stinks.

How does it feel that rockets will go nowhere with artest/yao/tmac/battier/scola/alston

LMAO!

[gleden]

Did this fool try to say that Kobe is better than Jordan????????

[TmacsRockets]

Lmao desperation sets in

posting numbers from 17 and 18 year old kobe:roll: :lol pathetic.

Then comparing jordan's stats in isolation era to Kobe's zone era. lmao

desperation stinks.

How does it feel that rockets will go nowhere with artest/yao/tmac/battier/scola/alston

LMAO!

That was a peak Kobe at his best. He just got shut down by Hornecek.

The zone era started in 2004. From that point forward guys numbers have been increasing because it is easier to score.


How does it feel that Kobe will lose once again in the playoffs with the most stacked team ever?


Show me how Kobe is even better than Vince.

Vince scored 50 in regulation in the playoffs and Kobe never did that, thus Vince is better.

Billups and Parker got a finals mvp and Kobe never has thus they are better.

[HisJoeness]

Lmao desperation sets in

posting numbers from 17 and 18 year old kobe:roll: :lol pathetic.

Then comparing jordan's stats in isolation era to Kobe's zone era. lmao

desperation stinks.

How does it feel that rockets will go nowhere with artest/yao/tmac/battier/scola/alston

LMAO!

Are you insinuating that Kobe Bryant's stats from his first two years are excused? Akin to a teacher throwing out your worst test grade when they calculate your final average.

[KB42PAH]

Are you insinuating that Kobe Bryant's stats from his first two years are excused? Akin to a teacher throwing out your worst test grade when they calculate your final average.

Jordan = Cut from his high school team.

should we excuse that?

[CasterL]

since when was the nba highschool sort it out man

[HisJoeness]

Jordan = Cut from his high school team.

should we excuse that?

Yes, his high school career has nothing to do with his NBA accomplishments.

[TmacsRockets]

Did this fool try to say that Kobe is better than Jordan????????

The guy is a troll that is why he has been banned from 5 forums now. He does nothing but promote Kobe and how good he is and then says how good the teams are Kobe has played once he comes up short even though he says Kobe was going to blow those teams out before the series started.

He does nothing but use the same useless information, but you never see him using finals stats or anything when stuff actually matters.

You already know he is a troll because of what he described Bird as.

The guy has never seen any other player play ball but Kobe and the guys he plays in meaningless regular season games.

[TmacsRockets]

Jordan = Cut from his high school team.

should we excuse that?

Yeah because high school is the nba right?

Leave this site you freaking troll.

That is why you have been banned from 5 forums already.

[gleden]

Jordan = Cut from his high school team.

should we excuse that?

and he didnt put bryants stats when he was young. he put bryants stats from his whole career but they didnt appear there since jordan and wilt were usually leading in all of those

[CasterL]

a certain caption pic comes to mind but imageshack is playing up

[Sir Charles]

Explain to me how a...

Top 10 All-Time EFF Player
Top 9 All-Time Season PER Player and...
Top 7 Al-Time Play-Off PER

*Facts and Stats!

Player whom had Inferior Casts and Teams than All of Those Above Him (and many below) in that Departament Through Out his Years (especially in his Prime) and Played in the Toughesta era in the NBA is Not a Top 5-10 Player of All-Time? :hammerhead: :confusedshrug: :rant

Malone Higher than Barkley as a Player? :roll: = Most Overrated Player Ever with Russell. Malone is More like a Top 15-20

Barkley = Clearly the Most Underrated Great of All-Time by Miles by Miles...No Way Below Top 10 :no:

Are you Including his ...

-Louthmouthed Comments
-Off Court Activity (Spitting Incident, Fights, Not In Shape...)
-Short and Overweight Frame Can`t be a PF! ( More like = Envy and Humilation on the Rest of the NBA in his Prime)
-Agressive Demeanor

... In the Grading of a How Great a Player Is? :rolleyes:

It Looks Like You Are!!! :rolleyes:

http://i.cdn.turner.com/sivault/image/1996/08/03/001093703.jpg


1-Bill Russel Insulting Too High :roll: (Hardly a Top 10-15 Center of All Time)

2-Adrian Dantley Too Low once Again..
.
3-Grant Hill Too Low...Prime Grant is a Top 10 All Time SF maybe even a bit Higher....

4-Gary Payton Too Low

[lilojmayo]

Originally Posted by KB42PAH
Jordan = Cut from his high school team.

should we excuse that?


actually i think thats one of the parts on how we admire MJ so much he wasnt always better than his competition he had to work day and night for it to be GOAT unlike alot of HS phenoms like a Lebron James or OJ Mayo would were from middle school better than ppl 6-7 years older than them

[Niquesports]

Explain to me how a...

Top 10 All-Time EFF Player
Top 9 All-Time Season PER Player and...
Top 7 Al-Time Play-Off PER

*Facts and Stats!

Player whom had Inferior Casts and Teams than All of Those Above Him (and many below) in that Departament Through Out his Years (especially in his Prime) and Played in the Toughesta era in the NBA is Not a Top 5-10 Player of All-Time? :hammerhead: :confusedshrug: :rant

Malone Higher than Barkley as a Player? :roll: = Most Overrated Player Ever with Russell. Malone is More like a Top 15-20

Barkley = Clearly the Most Underrated Great of All-Time by Miles by Miles...No Way Below Top 10 :no:

Are you Including his ...

-Louthmouthed Comments
-Off Court Activity (Spitting Incident, Fights, Not In Shape...)
-Short and Overweight Frame Can`t be a PF! ( More like = Envy and Humilation on the Rest of the NBA in his Prime)
-Agressive Demeanor

... In the Grading of a How Great a Player Is? :rolleyes:

It Looks Like You Are!!! :rolleyes:

http://i.cdn.turner.com/sivault/image/1996/08/03/001093703.jpg


1-Bill Russel Insulting Too High :roll: (Hardly a Top 10-15 Center of All Time)

2-Adrian Dantley Too Low once Again..
.
3-Grant Hill Too Low...Prime Grant is a Top 10 All Time SF maybe even a bit Higher....

4-Gary Payton Too Low

Anyone that ranks a center that leads his team to 11 titles cant be less than a top 5 player. To just say his ppg was low is insulting to anyone that knows basketball or has seen him play.

[Sir Charles]

Anyone that ranks a center that leads his team to 11 titles cant be less than a top 5 player. To just say his ppg was low is insulting to anyone that knows basketball or has seen him play.

Anyone who plays with 7 HOF for 13 Years will be Seen as A Great Player even if he Isn`t. :confusedshrug:

FG% at Below 50% with 7 HOFs? :rolleyes:
Great Rebounder, Passer and Defender? He Was but ofcourse even Ed Nealy can be seen as Greater than he Is if Playing with 7 HOF for All of his Career in his Prime and His Casts Prime....

Hakeem >>>>>>>>>>>>> Russell
Robinson >>>>>>>>>>>> Russell
Shaq>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Russell
Ewing > Russell
Gilmore as Good or even > Russell

[Lebron23]

LeBron James First 6 years in the NBA > Career of Tracy Mcgrady.

[Mdog1]

LeBron James First 6 years in the NBA > Career of Tracy Mcgrady.
lol I agree.

[Niquesports]

Anyone who plays with 7 HOF for 13 Years will be Seen as A Great Player even if he Isn`t. :confusedshrug:

FG% at Below 50% with 7 HOFs? :rolleyes:
Great Rebounder, Passer and Defender? He Was but ofcourse even Ed Nealy can be seen as Greater than he Is if Playing with 7 HOF for All of his Career in his Prime and His Casts Prime....

Hakeem >>>>>>>>>>>>> Russell
Robinson >>>>>>>>>>>> Russell
Shaq>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Russell
Ewing > Russell
Gilmore as Good or even > Russell


Russell 11 titles and 2 NCAA Titles
Hakeem didnt win a title until Jordan was out the league
Robinson could never lead his team to a finals until Duncan can and took over the team
Shaq is just another version of Wilt and we all know how many times Russ lead his team over Wilt.
Ewing patterend his game after Russ being coach by John Thompson who played with Russ.

ITs funny how you want to say Russ played with 7 HOF and even a HOF coach but he is the only player /coach that was on all 11 title teams.
Find any news article or player or coach that has seen Russ play and show me one that has him ranked lower than a top 5 center.
Maybe you have a problem that he did everything Barkley couldnt lead his teams to Championships.

[Godfather]

Russell 11 titles and 2 NCAA Titles
Hakeem didnt win a title until Jordan was out the league
Robinson could never lead his team to a finals until Duncan can and took over the team
Shaq is just another version of Wilt and we all know how many times Russ lead his team over Wilt.
Ewing patterend his game after Russ being coach by John Thompson who played with Russ.

ITs funny how you want to say Russ played with 7 HOF and even a HOF coach but he is the only player /coach that was on all 11 title teams.
Find any news article or player or coach that has seen Russ play and show me one that has him ranked lower than a top 5 center.
Maybe you have a problem that he did everything Barkley couldnt lead his teams to Championships.

Lol if you think Shaq is another version of Wilt. Prime Shaq would steal Wilt's lunch put him in a coffin and bury him. God knows what he would have done to the 6'9'' 225 pound Russell.

[Brunch@Five]

the bumping of this thread makes me question one thing:

how is Loki banned, but this KB24PAH guy and Sir Charles are still allowed to post? :wtf:

[Niquesports]

Lol if you think Shaq is another version of Wilt. Prime Shaq would steal Wilt's lunch put him in a coffin and bury him. God knows what he would have done to the 6'9'' 225 pound Russell.


Young Shaq Prime Shaq Old Fat Shaq has never dominated the league like Wilt has and Wilt played against 4 Top 50 OF all time Centers

[Godfather]

Young Shaq Prime Shaq Old Fat Shaq has never dominated the league like Wilt has and Wilt played against 4 Top 50 OF all time Centers

Please if Shaq toughest competition was Russel paired with players 6'10'' and under we all know Shaq would dominate them.

Not to mention Wilt never dominated the league the way Shaq did in three consecutive finals.

[The Nets]

TALK ABOUT THE PLAYERS WHO YOU BELIEVE SHOULD HAVE BEEN HIGHER ON THE LIST, ARE WAY TO HIGH ON THE LIST. ALSO TALK DISCUSS PLAYERS THAT SHOULD HAVE BEEN IN THE TOP 100 AND PLAYERS THAT HAVE NO BUSINESS BEING ON THIS LIST.


Insidehoops has finally gotten through with it’s 100 Greatest Players list in 100 days (well probably 108 days, I wasn‘t here a couple of days and they went on a while longer). There is a bunch of great players, some hall of famers who didn’t even make this list.


-Gilbert Arenas
-Rolando Blackman
-Walter Davis
-Cliff Hagan
-Lou Hudson
-Gus Johnson
-Marques Johnson
-Bobby Jones
-Bill Laimbeer
-Lafayette Lever
-Ed MaCauley
-Jermaine O’Neal
-Jim Pollard
-Micheal Ray Richardson
-Jack Sikma
-Rudy Tomjanovich
-Chet Walker
-Paul Westphal
Just to name a few…


Thanks to everyone from insidehoops who participated in these threads over the past 100+ days. I’m pretty sure everyone learned something they didn’t know before after voting and reading up on players.


#100 - Mark Aguirre. Mark Aguirre played in an era where the small forward was one of the deepest positions. #5, #12, #43, #58, #60, #61, #71 and #83 were all SF’s he had to play nightly. He held his own with the Dallas Mavericks and latter as a Piston. He made all of him NBA All-Star appearances and his highest scoring average (29.5) with Dallas. He was traded for #71 and helped Dallas win back to back titles as he played with #20, #47 and #62.

| PPG 20 | RPG 5 | APG 3.1 |
3 NBA All-Star Games
Field Goal attempts leader
2 NBA Championships


http://www.nba.com/media/history/dal_uni_02.jpg


ISH 100 Greatest NBA Players of All-Time
1. Michael Jordan
2. Wilt Chamberlain
3. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
4. Earvin 'Magic' Johnson
5. Larry Bird
6. Bill Russell
7. Shaquille O'Neal
8. Oscar Robertson
9. Hakeem Olajuwon
10. Tim Duncan
11. Jerry West
12. Julius Erving
13. Moses Malone
14. Elgin Baylor
15. Bob Pettit
16. John Havlicek
17. Karl Malone
18. George Mikan
19. David Robinson
20. Isiah Thomas
21. Charles Barkley
22. John Stockton
23. Bob Cousy
24. Kobe Bryant
25. Rick Barry
26. Scottie Pippen
27. Clyde Drexler
28. Gary Payton
29. Willis Reed
30. Patrick Ewing
31. Allen Iverson
32. Walt Frazier
33. Elvin Hayes
34. George Gervin
35. Jason Kidd
36. Dave Cowens
37. Kevin Garnett
38. Bob McAdoo
39. Nate Thurmond
40. Wes Unseld
41. Kevin McHale
42. Dolph Schayes
43. Dominique Wilkins
44. Bill Walton
45. Sam Jones
46. Kevin Johnson
47. Dennis Rodman
48. Dirk Nowitzki
49. Steve Nash
50. Billy Cunningham
-----
51. Nate 'Tiny' Archibald
52. 'Pistol' Pete Maravich
53. Tracy McGrady
54. Hal Greer
55. Jerry Lucas
56. Robert Parish
57. Earl 'the Pearl' Monroe
58. Bernard King
59. Artis Gilmore
60. Alex English
61. James Worthy
62. Joe Dumars
63. Bill Sharman
64. Reggie Miller
65. Paul Arizin
66. Sidney Moncrief
67. Dave DeBusschere
68. Dave Bing
69. David Thompson
70. Lenny Wilkens
71. Adrian Dantley
72. Bob Lanier
73. Neil Johntson
74. Walt Bellamy
75. Vince Carter
76. Spencer Haywood
77. Ray Allen
78. Dennis Johnson
79. Paul Pierce
80. Dikembe Mutombo
81. Connie Hawkins
82. Chris Webber
83. Chris Mullin
84. Grant Hill
85. Mitch Richmond
86. Dan Issel
87. 'Jumpin' Joe Fulks
88. Alonzo Mourning
89. Shawn Kemp
90. Mark Price
91. Anfernee 'Penny' Hardaway
92. Tommy Heinsohn
93. George McGinnis
94. Tim Hardaway
95. Mel Daniels
96. Bob Davies
97. Tom Chambers
98. Maurice Cheeks
99. Ben Wallace
100. Mark Aguirre

#100 Greatest Player Voting
Mark Aguirre = 8 votes
Gilbert Arenas = 3 votes
Lafayette Lever = 3 votes
Jim Pollard = 2 votes
Bobby Jones = 1 vote
Bill Laimbeer = 1 vote
Ed MaCauley = 1 vote
Rik Smits = 1 vote


Number 101 seems to be a tie between Gilbert Arenas and Fat Lever...


Official #100 NBA Player Of All Time According To ISH (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=57656)

This is a fairly biased list considering almost half of the players are those who are still playing in the league. Besides, how come Ben Wallace is ranked at top 100 while Chauncey Billups and Rip Hamilton are not? I'm also pretty sure CP3 and Deron are already better than Ben Wallace ever was...

[Niquesports]

Please if Shaq toughest competition was Russel paired with players 6'10'' and under we all know Shaq would dominate them.

Not to mention Wilt never dominated the league the way Shaq did in three consecutive finals.


Well if Wilt ever had to play against centers as weak as the ones that Shaq played against in 3 title he would have dominated also.With the exception of Mutombo Shaq hasnt played against any center worth mentioning in a finals oh my bad he did get his butt whipped when he faced Hakeem.

[Godfather]

This is a fairly biased list considering almost half of the players are those who are still playing in the league. Besides, how come Ben Wallace is ranked at top 100 while Chauncey Billups and Rip Hamilton are not? I'm also pretty sure CP3 and Deron are already better than Ben Wallace ever was...

CP3 yes, Deron no. Prime Ben Wallace was the most dominating defensive force in the 00's, he definitely deserves a spot on this list above Billups (Ben had a very good case for the finals mvp), Hamilton, and Deron.

[Niquesports]

CP3 yes, Deron no. Prime Ben Wallace was the most dominating defensive force in the 00's, he definitely deserves a spot on this list above Billups (Ben had a very good case for the finals mvp), Hamilton, and Deron.


Ben just happened to be just the center the Pistons needed he has been a below average center before he got to the pistons and since he left.

[Godfather]

Well if Wilt ever had to play against centers as weak as the ones that Shaq played against in 3 title he would have dominated also.With the exception of Mutombo Shaq hasnt played against any center worth mentioning in a finals oh my bad he did get his butt whipped when he faced Hakeem.

How many years in the league when he got "whipped" by Hakeem (btw another player that would have made Wilt his bitch).

[The Nets]

CP3 yes, Deron no. Prime Ben Wallace was the most dominating defensive force in the 00's, he definitely deserves a spot on this list above Billups (Ben had a very good case for the finals mvp), Hamilton, and Deron.

This is why 2000s is a weak era. Ben Wallace could have been owned completely in more than half of his game if he had played in 1980s and 1990s while he's regarded as one of the best centers in 2000s...

[Godfather]

Ben just happened to be just the center the Pistons needed he has been a below average center before he got to the pistons and since he left.

He was out of his prime when he went to the Bulls (good job Bulls front office). All that matters is that with the Pistons Ben Wallace won 4 defensive player of the year awards, had 4 all star appearances, 6 All-NBA defensive teams, and 5 ALL NBA teams (3 2nd team 2 third).

[Lebron23]

What are you talking about? Ben Wallace is one of the greatest defensive Center of all time, and he's a 4X NBA Defensive Player of the Year.

That's very impressive for a guy that was undrafted in the 1996 NBA Draft, and his real height is only 6'7".

[Niquesports]

How many years in the league when he got "whipped" by Hakeem (btw another player that would have made Wilt his bitch).


How many years was Russ in the league before he won his first title ?????
At least you admit that Hakeem gave Shaq the Jail house booty snatch with no vasiline.

[Godfather]

This is why 2000s is a weak era. Ben Wallace could have been owned completely in more than half of his game if he had played in 1980s and 1990s while he's regarded as one of the best centers in 2000s...

In the 1980's/1990's he would have still been considered an excellent defender (imagine Ben Wallace being allowed to hand check :eek:). No doubt the 00's was a weaker era for Big Men, but doens't ignore the fact you could take the top 15 centers from the 00's and have any one of them being considered a HOF in Wilt's era.

[The Nets]

What are you talking about? Ben Wallace is one of the greatest defensive Center of all time, and he's a 4X NBA Defensive Player of the Year.

That's very impressive for a guy that was undrafted in the 1996 NBA Draft, and his real height is only 6'7".

Because he's in Cavaliers? :confusedshrug:

I'm not actually a Ben Wallace hater and I hate nobody, but ranking Ben Wallace at top 100 is just freaking ridiculous.

[Niquesports]

He was out of his prime when he went to the Bulls (good job Bulls front office). All that matters is that with the Pistons Ben Wallace won 4 defensive player of the year awards, had 4 all star appearances, 6 All-NBA defensive teams, and 5 ALL NBA teams (3 2nd team 2 third).

Well if he was past his prime with the Bulls and now the Cavs what did he do before he got to the pistons he was a below than avg center true he was a very good banger but for real he's just another Charles oakley

[Godfather]

How many years was Russ in the league before he won his first title ?????
At least you admit that Hakeem gave Shaq the Jail house booty snatch with no vasiline.

Shaq was torched on the defensive end, but that is to be expected when you have only been in the league two years. On the offensive end Shaq still had an impressive series (against a prime Hakeem none the less).

How many HOF's did Russel play with. You can say Big Ben doesn't deserve to be on the list because he was only defender. When Russel was a glorified defender, who had no offensive game, and played with 5 (4/5 don't remember) HOF while Big Ben played with none.

[Niquesports]

What are you talking about? Ben Wallace is one of the greatest defensive Center of all time, and he's a 4X NBA Defensive Player of the Year.

That's very impressive for a guy that was undrafted in the 1996 NBA Draft, and his real height is only 6'7".


I agree That Ben was an overachiever but there were other undersized centers that were heads over heels over Ben Unseld and Reed just to name a couple.

[Lebron23]

Because he's in Cavaliers? :confusedshrug:

I'm not actually a Ben Wallace hater and I hate nobody, but ranking Ben Wallace at top 100 is just freaking ridiculous.


Even if you are a fan of another team in the NBA. I think you should give some appreciation to Ben Wallace because he can play in any era, and he would still be a rebounding machine.

He's the closest thing to a Prime Dennis Rodman, who was regarded as one of the greatest defender in NBA History.




NBA records, achievements and milestones


* NBA Champion: 2004
* 4-time NBA All-Star: 2003, 2004, 2005, 2006
* 4-time NBA Defensive Player of the Year: 2002, 2003, 2005, 2006
* 6-time All-NBA Defensive Team:

* First Team: 2002, 2003, 2004, 2005, 2006
* Second Team: 2007

* 5-time All-NBA:

* Second Team: 2003, 2004, 2006
* Third Team: 2002, 2005

* 2-time NBA regular-season leader, rebounds per game: 2002 (13.0), 2003 (15.4)
* NBA regular-season leader, blocks per game: 2002 (3.5)
* 2-time NBA regular-season leader, total rebounds: 2001 (1052), 2003 (1026)
* NBA regular-season leader, total defensive rebounds: 2001 (749)
* 2-time NBA regular-season leader, total offensive rebounds: 2003 (293), 2006 (301)
* NBA regular-season leader, total blocks: 2002 (278)


* Only player in NBA history to record 1,000 rebounds, 100 blocks, and 100 steals in 4 consecutive seasons (2001-04).[5]
* One of three players in NBA history to record 150 blocks and 100 steals in 7 consecutive seasons (2001-07) (along with Hakeem Olajuwon and David Robinson).[5][12][13]
* One of four players in NBA history to lead the NBA in rebounding and blocking averages in the same season (along with Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, Bill Walton, and Hakeem Olajuwon).
* One of three players in NBA history to average 15 rebounds and 3 blocks per game over a season (along with Kareem Abdul-Jabbar and Bob McAdoo).
* Only undrafted player in NBA history to be voted a starter for the NBA All-Star Game.
* One of two players in NBA history to receive NBA Defensive Player of the Year Award 4 times (along with Dikembe Mutombo).
* Only undrafted player to receive a contract of $54 million+ from one team.
* Ranks 16th all-time in blocked shots (1903)* in NBA history[14]
* Ranks 24th all-time in offensive rebounds (2898)* in NBA history[15]
* Ranks tied for 24th all-time (with A.C. Green) in defensive rebounds (6119)* in NBA history[16]
* Ranks 43rd all-time in total rebounds (9017)* in NBA history.

[Godfather]

Well if he was past his prime with the Bulls and now the Cavs what did he do before he got to the pistons he was a below than avg center true he was a very good banger but for real he's just another Charles oakley

No you idiot. When he was at Orlando he was considered an solid defender, but didn't have nearly near the minutes that he did with the pistons. When Ben Wallace got on the pistons he was given the ample playing time to show them off, and he capitalized it winning 4 consecutive defensive player of the year and being the only player in NBA history to record 1,000 rebounds, 100 blocks, and 100 steals in 4 consecutive season.

[Niquesports]

Shaq was torched on the defensive end, but that is to be expected when you have only been in the league two years. On the offensive end Shaq still had an impressive series (against a prime Hakeem none the less).

How many HOF's did Russel play with. You can say Big Ben doesn't deserve to be on the list because he was only defender. When Russel was a glorified defender, who had no offensive game, and played with 5 (4/5 don't remember) HOF while Big Ben played with none.


Russ played with about 5 HOF and one of the greatest coaches of all time and every single one of them will say Russ was that teams leader. He even lead one of those title teams as a player coach. Thats leadership. Russ was great from his first game until his last Ben cant say this as a matter of fact Ben was a below avg center for more years than he was as an DPOY so lets get him out of this discussion.

[Niquesports]

No you idiot. When he was at Orlando he was considered an solid defender, but didn't have nearly near the minutes that he did with the pistons. When Ben Wallace got on the pistons he was given the ample playing time to show them off, and he capitalized it winning 4 consecutive defensive player of the year and being the only player in NBA history to record 1,000 rebounds, 100 blocks, and 100 steals in 4 consecutive season.


Hey stupid there was a reason he wasnt getting the min. with orlando he didnt deserve them but hey dummy before he went to Orlando he was with the bullets where he was again a below avg center just like he was with the Bulls the Cavs and the magic i see a pattern he's below avg with every team except the pistons which also didnt really lose much since Big Bum left

[JJ81]

Kobe's got 24 (jersey number) :)

[Mdog1]

Hey stupid there was a reason he wasnt getting the min. with orlando he didnt deserve them but hey dummy before he went to Orlando he was with the bullets where he was again a below avg center just like he was with the Bulls the Cavs and the magic i see a pattern he's below avg with every team except the pistons which also didnt really lose much since Big Bum left
Actually i'd say BBW is doing pretty good for the Cavs this year. He isn't asked to do very much, but he is their defensive anchor and shuts down the opposition PF when asked to.

[Niquesports]

Even if you are a fan of another team in the NBA. I think you should give some appreciation to Ben Wallace because he can play in any era, and he would still be a rebounding machine.

He's the closest thing to a Prime Dennis Rodman, who was regarded as one of the greatest defender in NBA History.


I dont think there is any question that Ben was a old school center but as a player he wasnt better than Bill laimbeer Bobby Jones or mark Aguirre. IF you look at Bens career none of the Pistons benifited more than him. Every other player game was on equal while they were on other teams Bens performance drops drastically when on other teams.

[Niquesports]

Actually i'd say BBW is doing pretty good for the Cavs this year. He isn't asked to do very much, but he is their defensive anchor and shuts down the opposition PF when asked to.


granted he is in the twilight of his career but he's no where near playing at an all star level like he did when he was surround by players that covered up for his weakness.

[Mdog1]

granted he is in the twilight of his career but he's no where near playing at an all star level like he did when he was surround by players that covered up for his weakness.
No I agree. He is playing good D this year though, and I think he really is enjoying that 14.5 that he is being paid. If he was on a 8 a year deal it would be worth it.

[ACCBaller1403]

-Poor, unfundamental jumpshot mechanics (KB = perfect jumpshot)
-A defensive liability (only plays 1 side of the floor, unlike KB who is 9 time defensive member)
-Slow foot speed, quickness (no where near KB)
-His finish ability around the rim is no where near kobe

1. who cares what's fundamental or not when the shot goes in more than your peers. Peja's shot is ugly as hell and he's still one of the greatest shooters in the game. And Kobe's jumper is not perfect considering he fades on every shot whether it's needed or not. He can make it so its not a fault but it's not fundamental either.
2. Bird was also on all defensive teams...AND Kobe's all D team nominations are SOOOO overrated due to media groupthink of him being an all world defender. If he was so good they wouldn't hide him on pathetic offensive players in the playoffs.
3. You're comparing the foot speed of a 6 foot 10 guy against that of a 6 foot 6? No sh*t he's got better foot speed. By this logic, Bird's a better rebounder...disregard the fact that he's taller. Also, Bird's foot speed may not have been the greatest but he had some of the quickest hands of all time in the NBA. He covered his faults if he had any and actually turned them into strengths.
4. You're talking out of your ass so much here. Bird was a better shooter and better finisher than Kobe. Bird created so many great finishes. Most creative player of all time (Magic and Jordan are up there as well). Seriously, look on youtube to start. Then watch some games. Get knowledgable.




-Lacked a 3 point shot and the finish ability of KB. Lacked the killer instinct, clutchness, off-hand abilites of Kobe as well.

Jordan lacked killer instinct?! That's what made him the greatest of all time! Without that he's Vince. It what drove him to dominate everything with a heartbeat and not stop until he did. Clutchness, he's far far far better as well. Kobe, despite the media hype, is not the greatest clutch player around. Good, but not great.




-West? Please tell me thats a joke. He had no off-hand, not a great finisher around rim ( compared to KB), nowhere as good defensively.

No joke. Where's the joke? West was clutcher and a better shooter while being no slouch on the defensive end either. And what is this finishing around the rim nonsense you keep bringing up? West didn't dunk so he's not a great finisher? Children...


-Jordan is the only one thats in same boat as kobe skill wise.

Kobe vs. Jordan (Skil wise)

Kobe: Better shooter ( Midrange, Longrange), Better Ball-handler, Better scorer, better off-hand, better killer-instinct, better passer, better playmaker

Jordan: Smarter player, better inside player, better post player, more consistent defensively.

I don't want to hate on Kobe, he gets far more than his fair share on this site, but you are forcing people to dislike him. Jordan was a better midrange shooter, not as good long range, but developed it throughout his career and posted percentages oftentimes higher than Kobe's (in less attempts, granted). I'll give you the ball handler, but not the off hand, killer instinct, passing, playmaking and ESPECIALLY NOT scoring. Kobe scores 81 and people think he's the greatest scorer in history. Not the case. Jordan was consistently a better scorer in the regular season and in the playoffs (including the finals...Kobe...).

[Godfather]

Hey stupid there was a reason he wasnt getting the min. with orlando he didnt deserve them but hey dummy before he went to Orlando he was with the bullets where he was again a below avg center just like he was with the Bulls the Cavs and the magic i see a pattern he's below avg with every team except the pistons which also didnt really lose much since Big Bum left

:banghead:

Now you are just acting immature. Since it is obvious you have understanding of a player's prime, nor athletic progression (thinking Russel could compete with today's players), there is no point arguing with you.

[Niquesports]

:banghead:

Now you are just acting immature. Since it is obvious you have understanding of a player's prime, nor athletic progression (thinking Russel could compete with today's players), there is no point arguing with you.

This is why you cant get it . Sure like everything else players today are bigger more athletic and if russ was born in 1983 and not 1930's he would be bigger stronger and with the skills that he had would be even better. Same with Wilt But no player dominated there peers like Russ and Wilt did. Thats all you can compare how did they do against there peers.

[Sir Charles]

Russell 11 titles and 2 NCAA Titles
Hakeem didnt win a title until Jordan was out the league
Robinson could never lead his team to a finals until Duncan can and took over the team
Shaq is just another version of Wilt and we all know how many times Russ lead his team over Wilt.
Ewing patterend his game after Russ being coach by John Thompson who played with Russ.

ITs funny how you want to say Russ played with 7 HOF and even a HOF coach but he is the only player /coach that was on all 11 title teams.
Find any news article or player or coach that has seen Russ play and show me one that has him ranked lower than a top 5 center.
Maybe you have a problem that he did everything Barkley couldnt lead his teams to Championships.


:roll: :(

[Kiddlovesnets]

:oldlol: @ Gilbert Arenas being one of the candidates as the No.101 player in NBA franchise history. He's just a team cancer who leads his team to a worse record than it could have been.

[w00terz]

:oldlol: @ Gilbert Arenas being one of the candidates as the No.101 player in NBA franchise history. He's just a team cancer who leads his team to a worse record than it could have been.

Of the 3,850 posts you've made, I don't think you've submitted a SINGLE post that was informative or contributed to the topic in a meaningful way. All of your posts are negative, often times absurd, criticisms about other players. Get the f*ck out of here man, seriously.

[Niquesports]

:oldlol: @ Gilbert Arenas being one of the candidates as the No.101 player in NBA franchise history. He's just a team cancer who leads his team to a worse record than it could have been.


Being a Wizzards Fan I know this is the farthest from the truth. Our team misses Gil and his floor play. Carron Butler is a better player with Gil on the floor.

[Kiddlovesnets]

Of the 3,850 posts you've made, I don't think you've submitted a SINGLE post that was informative or contributed to the topic in a meaningful way. All of your posts are negative, often times absurd, criticisms about other players. Get the f*ck out of here man, seriously.

I'm sorry but is there anything wrong to reveal the truth?


Being a Wizzards Fan I know this is the farthest from the truth. Our team misses Gil and his floor play. Carron Butler is a better player with Gil on the floor.

No, you're wrong. As far as I remember in the play-off series between the Wizards and Cavaliers, the Wizards won two games without Arenas, but lost all the rest of four games with him in the squad.

[-primetime-]

always fun to look at the past...

kinda funny to see that this threasd was bumped just like a month ago and read all the newer comments...

some ridiculous...

I wonder how much this would change if we did it again...

[L.Kizzle]

I'm sorry but is there anything wrong to reveal the truth?



No, you're wrong. As far as I remember in the play-off series between the Wizards and Cavaliers, the Wizards won two games without Arenas, but lost all the rest of four games with him in the squad.
:roll:

[El Seano]

Adding my name to the list of people who don't think Ben Wallace should be anywhere near a top 100 all time list.

Great list otherwise, good effort.

[PistolPete]

TOO HIGH
--#52 and #53, Pete Maravich and T-Mac are slightly high on the list.

Please enlighten us on why The Pistol was ranked too high?? Because he's in the NBA's top 50.

[Fatal9]

:oldlol: at Iverson being higher than Gervin, Garnett, McAdoo, Kidd, Wilkins, Dirk, Nash. The man does not belong in the top 50. He barely shot over 40% during his "prime", his scoring records are probably the least impressive in history. Half his seasons with the Sixers have been losing ones, with the only success coming due to Larry Brown turning the Sixers into one of the best defensive teams in the league. Without question, the most overrated player of this era.

Kobe is in the top 12 right now but I don't know if he'll ever break into the top 10 or so.

[L.Kizzle]

Please enlighten us on why The Pistol was ranked too high?? Because he's in the NBA's top 50.
The top 50 was 12 seasons ago. In 1996, Kobe, Timmy D, KG, AI, Nash, Dirk were either not in the league or unproven youngins, that's 6 names right there. Than you got GP and Kidd not in the top 50 in 96' and players like McAdoo and Nique on this list and not on that list back then. That's 10 players, minus 52 from 10 and he's number 42 in the top 50 list.

[B-Diddy=2Easy]

Ray Allen is not one of the 100 greatest NBA players. :no:

[L.Kizzle]

Ray Allen is not one of the 100 greatest NBA players. :no:
OK, sure he isn't ... Spudjjay :oldlol:

[B-Diddy=2Easy]

OK, sure he isn't ... Spudjjay :oldlol:

Lol. I am not "Spudjjay".

I can name about 30 SGs better than Ray Allen.

[Stacey King]

Lol. I am not "Spudjjay".

I can name about 30 SGs better than Ray Allen.

I'd like to see that list. Go ahead and type it out

[L.Kizzle]

Lol. I am not "Spudjjay".

I can name about 30 SGs better than Ray Allen.
Wait one second, I have something in progress right this minute ...

[L.Kizzle]

I'd like to see that list. Go ahead and type it out
Yes, put it in the shooting guards thread also.

[YAWN]

someone should do this again :D

[FindingTim]

All in all, this list really isn't bad at all.

my biggest beef is David Robinson getting ranked too favorably, while I feel Chris Webber is tremendously underrated here. Prime Chris Webber could literally do it all (except win a championship, which he did all he could to achieve)

As for Dirk's ranking, I think he is right where he should be. Whether or not his various Mav's teams had good surrounding talent, he always gave them a chance to win.

[Xover]

good thread

[L.Kizzle]

good thread
U dug this up!

[LiLharvard]

worthless list

How is Vince Carter higher than Ray Allen or Paul Pierce :facepalm

[Holy Random]

worthless list

How is Vince Carter higher than Ray Allen or Paul Pierce :facepalm

Worthless poster.

The list is from 2007.

[Xover]

U dug this up!

lol no not rly, it came up in one of my google searches and i thought it was a great thread :oldlol:

[Boston C's]

would love to see a re-do of this list since many players that are up there have fallen off and some players have made a strong case to move further up the list

[L.Kizzle]

Bump

[feyki]

Kg at 37th when he was on his 31 .

That's example of how people can overrate a player with team success .

[RoundMoundOfReb]

Now:

MJ
LeBron
Kareem
Russell
Shaq
Wilt
Bird
Magic
Duncan
Hakeem

[ArbitraryWater]

Dirk is WAY too high.

creepy.. Samurai Swish mentioned this guy as good poster once, and this dude posts in the same style as Swish and seemingly has the same interests/dislikes.

[T_L_P]

Now:

MJ
LeBron
Kareem
Russell
Shaq
Wilt
Bird
Magic
Duncan
Hakeem

I don't get the logic behind Russell and Wilt ahead of the four behind them.

Either your list is based on accomplishments in which case they are all ahead of Wilt (besides Hakeem), or it's based on a realistic idea of how good they are as individual players in which case Russell shouldn't be sniffing the top five (as much as I love him).

And at this point, Bird > Duncan is off. Duncan has 15 more All-NBA/All-D teams than Bird (it's really 17 bad as the All-NBA 3rd Team wasn't around in Bird's day I won't count it), and his prime #s are on par with Larry's (despite playing in a slower era and having to anchor a defense at the same time).

Bird's 11 Playoff runs: 24/6/10.5 on .551 TS%

Duncan's first 11: 24/12.5/3 on .560 TS%

Personally Shaq/Duncan/Hakeem are #5-7.

[RoundMoundOfReb]

I don't get the logic behind Russell and Wilt ahead of the four behind them.

Either your list is based on accomplishments in which case they are all ahead of Wilt (besides Hakeem), or it's based on a realistic idea of how good they are as individual players in which case Russell shouldn't be sniffing the top five (as much as I love him).

And at this point, Bird > Duncan is off. Duncan has 15 more All-NBA/All-D teams than Bird (it's really 17 bad as the All-NBA 3rd Team wasn't around in Bird's day I won't count it), and his prime #s are on par with Larry's (despite playing in a slower era and having to anchor a defense at the same time).

Bird's 11 Playoff runs: 24/6/10.5 on .551 TS%

Duncan's first 11: 24/12.5/3 on .560 TS%

Personally Shaq/Duncan/Hakeem are #5-7.

I pretty much just give Russell respect for pioneering/developing the game and particularly how defense is played. I think if i'm starting a team today I'd probably take a number of players over him (although i think he'd stll be a great player today)

Wilt is someone who'd probably translate to the better more dominant player today.

If I had to reorder by ability/ who id take in today's league:

MJ
LeBron
Kareem
Shaq
Wilt
Bird
Magic
Hakeem
Duncan
Russell

What's your complete list?

[Prime_Shaq]

I don't get the logic behind Russell and Wilt ahead of the four behind them.

Either your list is based on accomplishments in which case they are all ahead of Wilt (besides Hakeem), or it's based on a realistic idea of how good they are as individual players in which case Russell shouldn't be sniffing the top five (as much as I love him).

And at this point, Bird > Duncan is off. Duncan has 15 more All-NBA/All-D teams than Bird (it's really 17 bad as the All-NBA 3rd Team wasn't around in Bird's day I won't count it), and his prime #s are on par with Larry's (despite playing in a slower era and having to anchor a defense at the same time).

Bird's 11 Playoff runs: 24/6/10.5 on .551 TS%

Duncan's first 11: 24/12.5/3 on .560 TS%

Personally Shaq/Duncan/Hakeem are #5-7.
I agree on Shaq/Duncan but I think Hakeem is a tier below the both of em

[ArbitraryWater]

I don't get the logic behind Russell and Wilt ahead of the four behind them.

Either your list is based on accomplishments in which case they are all ahead of Wilt (besides Hakeem), or it's based on a realistic idea of how good they are as individual players in which case Russell shouldn't be sniffing the top five (as much as I love him).

And at this point, Bird > Duncan is off. Duncan has 15 more All-NBA/All-D teams than Bird (it's really 17 bad as the All-NBA 3rd Team wasn't around in Bird's day I won't count it), and his prime #s are on par with Larry's (despite playing in a slower era and having to anchor a defense at the same time).

Bird's 11 Playoff runs: 24/6/10.5 on .551 TS%

Duncan's first 11: 24/12.5/3 on .560 TS%

Personally Shaq/Duncan/Hakeem are #5-7.

what if he just thinks thats how good the players are? Why does it always have to be so black n white

[ArbitraryWater]

I agree on Shaq/Duncan but I think Hakeem is a tier below the both of em

Hakeem a tier below Duncan lmao

[feyki]

Here's my top 35 ( i'm gonna extend this until about 333 ) ;

Russell #1
Kareem #2
Jordan #3
Wilt #4
Duncan #5
Hakeem #6
Shaq #7
Kobe/Magic/Bird/Lebron #8
Mikan #12
West #13
Oscar #14
Erving #15
Moses #16
Elgin #17
Hondo #18
Dirk #19
Wade #20
Garnett #21
Barkley #22
Pettit #23
Karl M. #24
Admiral #25
R.Barry #26
Ewing #27
Isiah #28
Drexler #29
Frazier #30
Pippen #31
Stockton #32
Pierce #33
Iverson #34
Artis #35

[T_L_P]

what if he just thinks thats how good the players are? Why does it always have to be so black n white

But what's the justification for saying Bird was 'better' than Duncan through their careers? Bird's prime was marginally better if you use a little context, but Duncan played an extra eight years. Using the most common criteria for judging how good someone is (a combination of stats and accolades), Duncan comes out on top..

And Russell? The dude put up 16 PPG on 43% shooting in what was undeniably a weaker era than in the past few decades. It's not even like Wilt who had dominant #s across all eras. His stats aren't better than Duncan's, Hakeem's or Magic's despite playing in a time where teams had 33% more possessions. :confusedshrug:

[T_L_P]

I pretty much just give Russell respect for pioneering/developing the game and particularly how defense is played. I think if i'm starting a team today I'd probably take a number of players over him (although i think he'd stll be a great player today)

Wilt is someone who'd probably translate to the better more dominant player today.

If I had to reorder by ability/ who id take in today's league:

MJ
LeBron
Kareem
Shaq
Wilt
Bird
Magic
Hakeem
Duncan
Russell

What's your complete list?

Jordan
Kareem
LeBron
Magic
Shaq
Hakeem
Duncan
Bird
Wilt
Garnett

I usually wouldn't rank pre-Kareem players because the game was too different and there's not enough footage, but I tend to agree that Wilt's play could translate to today's game. He had the size and athleticism and his numbers were just so far out there that you have to at least think he could be an MVP-type player in today's league.

Russell..not so much.

Edit: After those ten I go Kobe, Moses and Robinson.

[Prime_Shaq]

Hakeem a tier below Duncan lmao
Tier 1: MJ
Tier 2: Kareem, Russell
Tier 3: Magic, Bird, LeBron, Shaq, Duncan
Tier 4: Wilt, Kobe, Hakeem

[Lebron23]

Jordan
Jabbar
LeBron
Magic/Shaq/Duncan
Wilt/Bird/Russell/Kobe

[KirbyPls]

Jordan;
Kareem;
Lebron;
Duncan/Shaq;
Shaq/Duncan (very close between LBJ, Duncan, and Shaq IMO)
Magic;
Bird;
Kobe;
Hakeem;
Russell;
Wilt

(Russell and Wilt get penalized for the competition and size of the league, perhaps unfair, but I think the competition post merger is significantly better, and I am not sure they would have the stats and accolades that they did)

[riseagainst]

1. MJ
2. Lebron
3. Kareem

[Kiddlovesnets]

What a time. Back in 2007 Kobe was barel at #24 and Lebron aint even in top 100. I wonder when Lebron's name first appeared in top 100 all time list, I thought it was in 2009?

[feyki]

What a time. Back in 2007 Kobe was barel at #24 and Lebron aint even in top 100. I wonder when Lebron's name first appeared in top 100 all time list, I thought it was in 2009?

Yep , first all time great season by Lebron . After his 2009 and 2010 years , people start to comparing him to the legends .