Kobe vs. Larry Bird

[letsdothis]

2 questions that I would like to get your opinion on (especially from kblaze because he seems like an intelligent poster in this forum):

(1) If Larry Bird (prime) played in today's league, would he be considered a better player than kobe? (by "better" i mean more impact/dominant)

(2) If Kobe were to retire today or after this season, could he crack the top 20 greatest? (I know there was a thread on this and he ranked 24, but after answering the first question, your ranking of kobe may/maynot change)

My request: try to be as objective as possible. I know its easy to hate kobe because he's such a fruitcake sometimes. As for larry bird, remember that even though he wasn't as athletic as the others, he was still able to be a huge impact player for a long time. I was debating this with my roommate and i admit that i never watched larry bird play (except highlights) so i can't really say (although i would put my money on kobe).

Thanks guys.

[VCMVP1551]

I was born in 1987 so I didn't really see Bird play however I have watched about 20-30 old games with Bird playing and I would easily say Larry. Bird was like Dirk Nowitzki with heart, killer instinct and Magic Johnson's court vision. I would rank only Jordan, Magic and maybe Shaq ahead of him. Kobe might crack top 20 but if he keeps playing at this level he has a shot at top 10-15. He needs to prove he can lead a team though..he doesn't need to win another ring but he has to have the success Pippen had as a leader.

[G-train]

Larry Bird is probably the greatest shooter ever, and excellent team player, a winner who exceled at every part of the game, particulary intangibles. People sometimes knocked his defence, but he made all defensive teams a couple of times also.
Kobe is a great great scorer. But Bird did it all, and he did it all at a supreme level.
If you had seen him play, you would know that this is no contest.

[VCMVP1551]

Bird was a once in a lifetime player. He could shoot as well as any, post up as well as anyone, rebound as well as anyone and pass as well as anyone.

[Classic]

Another Kobe comparison? :sleeping

[letsdothis]

thanks for the posts. Im not just comparing them. Im not asking who is better, but im specifically asking if larry bird would be better than kobe if larry played in TODAY's league.

im inferring that you guys are saying that larry would be better. but if you guys could answer the question more specifically, then it would clearer.

[G-train]

He would play even better, as half the league plays dumb bball.

[VCMVP1551]

I think Bird's era was tougher and he'd do better in todays league especially considering we put more emphasis on 3's today than back then. Bird would be the best player in the league by far if he played today.

[johndeeregreen]

Larry Bird, without question.

We're talking about a guy who won 3 MVPs in a row before the award was a joke, playing in an era chock full of legends. Actually asking who the better player is/was is spitting in Bird's face. You realize by "prime Bird" you're talking about a guy who tossed up 29/11/7 on 52% shooting, 43% from three, and won the NBA MVP in an absolute landslide (73 out of 74 first place votes), right?

[Chrono90]

Larry Bird, without question.

We're talking about a guy who won 3 MVPs in a row before the award was a joke, playing in an era chock full of legends. Actually asking who the better player is/was is spitting in Bird's face. You realize by "prime Bird" you're talking about a guy who tossed up 29/11/7 on 52% shooting, 43% from three, and won the NBA MVP in an absolute landslide (73 out of 74 first place votes), right?
:rockon:

[G-train]

Larry Bird would probably beat Bryant in a skills contest today, at their current ages. :)

[dejordan]

kobe is a significantly better scorer than bird and a significantly better defender. bird was a significantly better rebounder, passer, leader, and decision-maker. i actually think it's closer than most people will admit, and larry bird is one of my all time faves so i'm not just playing favorites and trying to boost up bryant.

to me the real separation is in decision-making. if you watch the spurs win their rings you see it in duncan. he's almost flawless when it comes to knowing what to do against any given defensive situation and against most offenses as well. bird was like that, only to an even higher degree. announcers were always saying it looked like he knew what was going to happen on the court before it happened.

in today's game, i think there's one factor that significantly favors kobe, and that's the strictly enforced no handcheck rule. that rule gives him much more space and freedom than it would afford bird, because larry doesn't have the quickness and explosiveness to totally take advantage of it. i think the zone favors bird though because it allows him to play team defense which he excelled at without putting him in tough one on one matchups.

i think larry's biggest struggle in today's game would be that the players are not as smart and don't tend to have long tenures on teams so they might not build the type of chemistry to best utilize his great passing skills. i think larry's biggest advantage would be that nobody has played a style even closely resembling his in a very long time, and nobody would have any idea how to deal with all the touch passes and ambidextrous post moves.

i honestly don't know who would have the bigger impact in today's game. my inclination is to say bird since he did more to impact the game, but without knowing his team situation, you can't know for certain.

[VCMVP1551]

kobe is a significantly better scorer than bird and a significantly better defender. bird was a significantly better rebounder, passer, leader, and decision-maker. i actually think it's closer than most people will admit, and larry bird is one of my all time faves so i'm not just playing favorites and trying to boost up bryant.

to me the real separation is in decision-making. if you watch the spurs win their rings you see it in duncan. he's almost flawless when it comes to knowing what to do against any given defensive situation and against most offenses as well. bird was like that, only to an even higher degree. announcers were always saying it looked like he knew what was going to happen on the court before it happened.

in today's game, i think there's one factor that significantly favors kobe, and that's the strictly enforced no handcheck rule. that rule gives him much more space and freedom than it would afford bird, because larry doesn't have the quickness and explosiveness to totally take advantage of it. i think the zone favors bird though because it allows him to play team defense which he excelled at without putting him in tough one on one matchups.

i think larry's biggest struggle in today's game would be that the players are not as smart and don't tend to have long tenures on teams so they might not build the type of chemistry to best utilize his great passing skills. i think larry's biggest advantage would be that nobody has played a style even closely resembling his in a very long time, and nobody would have any idea how to deal with all the touch passes and ambidextrous post moves.

i honestly don't know who would have the bigger impact in today's game. my inclination is to say bird since he did more to impact the game, but without knowing his team situation, you can't know for certain.

Bird would often be guarded by PF because of his 6'9", 225 pound frame and excellent post skills so the no handchecking rule would help him too. Kobe isn't that much better than Bird at scoring either.

[JtotheIzzo]

kobe is a significantly better scorer than bird and a significantly better defender. bird was a significantly better rebounder, passer, leader, and decision-maker. i actually think it's closer than most people will admit, and larry bird is one of my all time faves so i'm not just playing favorites and trying to boost up bryant.

to me the real separation is in decision-making. if you watch the spurs win their rings you see it in duncan. he's almost flawless when it comes to knowing what to do against any given defensive situation and against most offenses as well. bird was like that, only to an even higher degree. announcers were always saying it looked like he knew what was going to happen on the court before it happened.

in today's game, i think there's one factor that significantly favors kobe, and that's the strictly enforced no handcheck rule. that rule gives him much more space and freedom than it would afford bird, because larry doesn't have the quickness and explosiveness to totally take advantage of it. i think the zone favors bird though because it allows him to play team defense which he excelled at without putting him in tough one on one matchups.

i think larry's biggest struggle in today's game would be that the players are not as smart and don't tend to have long tenures on teams so they might not build the type of chemistry to best utilize his great passing skills. i think larry's biggest advantage would be that nobody has played a style even closely resembling his in a very long time, and nobody would have any idea how to deal with all the touch passes and ambidextrous post moves.

i honestly don't know who would have the bigger impact in today's game. my inclination is to say bird since he did more to impact the game, but without knowing his team situation, you can't know for certain.

I love your analysis DJ but Bird was a much better scorer. The dude created so many shots, humbled top defenders night in and night out, he may not be able to drop fifty for a few games in a row against scrub comp in the dog days of the season ala Kobe, but with the game on the line and a hoop needed, put it in Bird's hands over Kobe's everytime.

[IGOTGAME]

I love your analysis DJ but Bird was a much better scorer. The dude created so many shots, humbled top defenders night in and night out, he may not be able to drop fifty for a few games in a row against scrub comp in the dog days of the season ala Kobe, but with the game on the line and a hoop needed, put it in Bird's hands over Kobe's everytime.

no one is a much better scorer then Kobe...and when Kobe had great teams around him he was very very clutch as well...I give Kobe a slight edge on scoring

[JPR]

number 1, larry bird was no b*tch. he didn't cry on the court or in it! :lol: number 2, kobe is too soft to ever equal larry's legendary status.

[Pavel Podkolzin1]

I agree with DeJordan. Bird is ahead but not by much.

[JPR]

Kobe is a member of the soft nba. the nba of tracy mcgrady and grant hill. the nba of talent and minimal balls. he has no right ever being mentioned in the same breath as legends such as larry bird and magic johnson...back when they played real ball.

[Kblaze8855]

kobe is a significantly better scorer than bird and a significantly better defender. bird was a significantly better rebounder, passer, leader, and decision-maker. i actually think it's closer than most people will admit, and larry bird is one of my all time faves so i'm not just playing favorites and trying to boost up bryant.

I really dont think Kobe is a better scorer than Bird. I think its just a matter of situation. Kobe wouldnt be scoring 35 a game or dropping 81 on a team with Kevin Mchale, Robert Parish, Dennis Johnson, and Danny Ainge on it. What exactly does Kobe do on a higher level than Bird when it coems to putting the ball in the e basket? Hes a better slasher but not by nearly the margin of difference in their athletic ability. Bird was a better post scorer. A better midrange shooter. A better long range shooter. Bird was in no way behind Kobe in variety of shots he could make.

When you really think about is...can anyone ever match Bird as a post scorer, midrange shooter, AND long range shooter? Jordan can match 1 and 2 maybe as a stretch. Not 3. Kobe can match 2 and 3 when hes very hot. 1? No. tmac? Not a post scorer. Dirk can do 2. Not all 3. Nique? Gervin? King? If anyone can do it like Bird from all 3 spots I dont know about them. Some surpass him in the ones they are best at but I cant think of anyone his equal at all of them. Amazingly well rounded scorer.

Bird just had less cause to score big. But when he put his mind to it he did it like nothing. 2 games really make that clear to me.

Kevin Mchale set the Celtics scoring record with 56 points one game. That very week Larry goes out and does this:


http://youtube.com/watch?v=2pkqmvyIoHA

Drops 60 on the Hawks. Really see what he was doing there. Those are some of the most insane shots ever made. Out there making 20 foot high floaters and spinning 4 point play creating off balance threes. The Hawks players were falling off the bench in disbelief. Think its just by chance that happened right after Mchale dropped 56? I dont. I think Bird is on a short list of guys who could just decide he was getting 50-60.

Another example is one Bill Walton mentioned in a 30 minute interview you can watch on NBA.coms video section. He(Walton) and Mchale had not played very hard a few nights. They had a 3 game losing streak(in a 67 win season..thats a longass losing streak). They lost ot the Mavs and Bird kept trying to find them and they kept coming up short. Bird was disgusted with the effort and told them that if they wouldnt play hard hed win the games by himself. They went out and had another poor effort. He went out the next game and dropped 42 in 24 minutes vs the Spurs in the first half. They won in the blowout and he finished with only 45 or 48. Something below 50. He started passing in the second half since hed made his point. They all went back to playing hard and eventually went 50-1 at home and won the title.

We are talking about a scorer so well rounded he could(and did) decide to play whole games left handed just for fun and still kill teams. If a guy can drop 60 on command just to one up a guy and give a team 40 in a half just to prove a point to his teammates I think its safe to say he held back for the teams sake most of the time. In 4 seasons now Kobe has taken more shots than Bird did in any season.

Did Birds success go up as a result of teammates? Sure. But his numbers suffered. If he played on a team with a pass first non aggressive #2 with a coach who would just ask him to murder the NBA when the team needed to go on a run you dont think he could have scored more?

Even having seen 6 or 7 hundred of Jordans games(a possibly low estimate) ive always thought Bird was the most complete offensive player ive ever seen and even though in his prime he was a 29/11/7 player his numbers could have been better.

Put Larry Bird in place of MJ on the 87 Bulls and have them play the same I doubt he comes up one bit short of the 37 a game Jordan did. And if hes on the Lakers and Phil Jackson told him to go off like he tells Kobe now and then...no doubt he kills it.

So not only do I not think Kobe is a significantly better scorer than Bird...I dont think anyone ive seen is a significantly better scorer. I feel it comes down to ability to score vs how much you score. Birds ability to score was greater than his scoring totals. A good bit better I believe.

As a scorer...Kobe is to today what George Gervin and King were in Birds. I dont think less scoring when less scoring is required should be held against him in comparison to others. If Bird were a spur he probably wins 4 scoring titles like Gervin. As a Knick he probbaly drops 32 a game like King. Cant give it the same weight because its hypothetical I know...but his skills were not.

Bird had skills to spare and I dont think we have seen anyone with more skills when it comes to scoring. If we have...sure wasnt significantly more. Kobe is on a real short list of guys who can be fairly put on Birds general level strictly as a scorer. But I dont think he or anyone else in my lifetime just blows him away.

[trig]

Ive never watched a larry Bird game and felt like, damn bird is shooting too much. Cant say the same thing w/ Kobe

[Loki]

(1) If Larry Bird (prime) played in today's league, would he be considered a better player than kobe? (by "better" i mean more impact/dominant)

Without question imo. I can't even believe this is a question, actually. Prime Bird would be a 27/10/7/2/1/49% player in this league, and would be the clutchest player as well. Bird would dominate.


(2) If Kobe were to retire today or after this season, could he crack the top 20 greatest? (I know there was a thread on this and he ranked 24, but after answering the first question, your ranking of kobe may/maynot change

Yes, he could crack the top 20 after this season, and some may already put him there on the high end, which I wouldn't argue too strenuously against.


I really dont think Kobe is a better scorer than Bird. I think its just a matter of situation. Kobe wouldnt be scoring 35 a game or dropping 81 on a team with Kevin Mchale, Robert Parish, Dennis Johnson, and Danny Ainge on it. What exactly does Kobe do on a higher level than Bird when it coems to putting the ball in the e basket? Hes a better slasher but not by nearly the margin of difference in their athletic ability. Bird was a better post scorer. A better midrange shooter. A better long range shooter. Bird was in no way behind Kobe in variety of shots he could make.

When you really think about is...can anyone ever match Bird as a post scorer, midrange shooter, AND long range shooter? Jordan can match 1 and 2 maybe as a stretch. Not 3. Kobe can match 2 and 3 when hes very hot. 1? No. tmac? Not a post scorer. Dirk can do 2. Not all 3. Nique? Gervin? King? If anyone can do it like Bird from all 3 spots I dont know about them. Some surpass him in the ones they are best at but I cant think of anyone his equal at all of them. Amazingly well rounded scorer.

Bird just had less cause to score big. But when he put his mind to it he did it like nothing. 2 games really make that clear to me.

Kevin Mchale set the Celtics scoring record with 56 points one game. That very week Larry goes out and does this:


http://youtube.com/watch?v=2pkqmvyIoHA

Drops 60 on the Hawks. Really see what he was doing there. Those are some of the most insane shots ever made. Out there making 20 foot high floaters and spinning 4 point play creating off balance threes. The Hawks players were falling off the bench in disbelief. Think its just by chance that happened right after Mchale dropped 56? I dont. I think Bird is on a short list of guys who could just decide he was getting 50-60.

Another example is one Bill Walton mentioned in a 30 minute interview you can watch on NBA.coms video section. He(Walton) and Mchale had not played very hard a few nights. They had a 3 game losing streak(in a 67 win season..thats a longass losing streak). They lost ot the Mavs and Bird kept trying to find them and they kept coming up short. Bird was disgusted with the effort and told them that if they wouldnt play hard hed win the games by himself. They went out and had another poor effort. He went out the next game and dropped 42 in 24 minutes vs the Spurs in the first half. They won in the blowout and he finished with only 45 or 48. Something below 50. He started passing in the second half since hed made his point. They all went back to playing hard and eventually went 50-1 at home and won the title.

We are talking about a scorer so well rounded he could(and did) decide to play whole games left handed just for fun and still kill teams. If a guy can drop 60 on command just to one up a guy and give a team 40 in a half just to prove a point to his teammates I think its safe to say he held back for the teams sake most of the time. In 4 seasons now Kobe has taken more shots than Bird did in any season.

Did Birds success go up as a result of teammates? Sure. But his numbers suffered. If he played on a team with a pass first non aggressive #2 with a coach who would just ask him to murder the NBA when the team needed to go on a run you dont think he could have scored more?

Even having seen 6 or 7 hundred of Jordans games(a possibly low estimate) ive always thought Bird was the most complete offensive player ive ever seen and even though in his prime he was a 29/11/7 player his numbers could have been better.

Put Larry Bird in place of MJ on the 87 Bulls and have them play the same I doubt he comes up one bit short of the 37 a game Jordan did. And if hes on the Lakers and Phil Jackson told him to go off like he tells Kobe now and then...no doubt he kills it.

So not only do I not think Kobe is a significantly better scorer than Bird...I dont think anyone ive seen is a significantly better scorer. I feel it comes down to ability to score vs how much you score. Birds ability to score was greater than his scoring totals. A good bit better I believe.

As a scorer...Kobe is to today what George Gervin and King were in Birds. I dont think less scoring when less scoring is required should be held against him in comparison to others. If Bird were a spur he probably wins 4 scoring titles like Gervin. As a Knick he probbaly drops 32 a game like King. Cant give it the same weight because its hypothetical I know...but his skills were not.

Bird had skills to spare and I dont think we have seen anyone with more skills when it comes to scoring. If we have...sure wasnt significantly more. Kobe is on a real short list of guys who can be fairly put on Birds general level strictly as a scorer. But I dont think he or anyone else in my lifetime just blows him away.

Well said. I wouldn't argue if anyone suggested that Kobe is a better scorer, but to say that he's a significantly better scorer is wrong imo for the reasons stated above. Bird dropped 30/53% one year and 29/53% another. Incidentally, those are the only years he took as many as 22 shot attempts per game.

One factor that is being somewhat overlooked is that being surrounded by other (to varying degrees) dangerous scorers (McHale, Parish, Ainge, DJ) means the defense can't key in on you as much. Still, I don't think that's enough to outweigh all of what kblaze stated above. So again, Kobe may be the better scorer, but there's not some huge margin there. It may be something like a 5-10% difference, not 30%.

[Hardtop Hero]

dejordan, your post is flawed i'm sorry. Kobe is not "close" to Bird. Don't let high scoring games fool you. Kobe's never shot over 50%, does not have the bball IQ of Bird, is not the same kind of leader and has not proven he can step us as big in the post season as Larry.

kblaze said everything necessary to shut down your erroneous post so I won't continue. Brush up on your basketball.

[Los Angeles]

In 4 seasons now Kobe has taken more shots than Bird did in any season.

Not really sure how it's relevent at all, Kobe takes shots because he has too...you said so yourself, Bird had teammates that needed the ball.

If Kobe was a better decision maker with the basketball, he could possibly be the greatest scorer this league has ever seen. But he isn't, I question his decision making way too much for me to consider him better then Bird as a scorer...is he on the same level? Perhaps, more then likely he is...could he be better then Bird or Michael if he had better intangibles, I really have no doubt about it. I have seen Michael, Magic, Bird play and I will tell you straight up...no one has impressed me more then Kobe when he's dominating a game, is it as often as Bird or Jordan? No, those guys were a lot smarter and were a lot more fundamentally sound, and a lot more consistant with their legendary play...and in Jordan's favor, also more physically fit...but in terms of talent, I have a hard time putting anyone above Kobe. Guy has all the tools, but he lacks basketball IQ...plain and simple.

I watch Kobe do what he did to Dallas, Portland last season or Toronto...I remember his game against Washington (Jordan's last game), I remember him getting 3 triple doubles in a span of 6-7 games (when he said he'll concentrate on team play more)...this guy can do it all, he just doesn't know his limits, when he needs to take over a game. He watches his teammates mis 3-4 shots, and before you know it...he takes the next 6-7 shots for his team, he needs to trust his teammates more...he'll become a better player the day he sets his mind to it.

[Batchoy]

I suggest all NBA fans who didn't get a chance to see Bird play read his book, "Drive: The Story of My Life". It has some fascinating insight about Larry and it shows how driven he was to be great in basketball. He really was a "hick from French Lick", but more importantly he loved the game of basketball and knew how to play it.

I hated Larry Bird more than anything when he was wearing Boston green because of my love for The Showtime Lakers, back in the day, but I grew to respect him and how he played the game. I don't even think he had a 20 inch vertical leap but he would average double digits in rebounding. He was slower than any player on the court, but he would get 2+ steals a game. He wasn't quick, but he could get off a shot over any defender. Larry Bird showed everyone that you didn't have to be a great athlete to be a basketball player. His basketball IQ was on par with Magic Johnson which is why they formed a rivalry and which is also why they became good friends.

Kobe is the new breed of basketball player who rely more on athleticism to play the game. But I have to give Kobe props for his old school mentality of preparing for games and how much "driven" he is to be great. The major difference is that Kobe would always think his shot is the best available, even if he is triple teamed. Kobe has not yet learned to fully trust his teammates (which infuriates me because he's been in the league 12 years). And, Kobe lovers, don't give me any of this crap about how "bad" his teammates are. Larry Bird lead a group of nobody's to a NCAA Finals game. You play the hand that is dealt to you. You can't have a do-over or re-deal the cards again so you can have a better hand (sorry about the poker reference, just played last weekend). Kobe should just shut up and try to find how to make his teammates play the best of their abilities.

Larry Bird would be a great player, no matter what era. That's what legends can do.

[dejordan]

damn! i just got schooled in this thread!

kblaze you make great, great points. i don't have any real counter, and i guess i shouldn't have said "significantly better scorer" (i actually had misgivings with that while i was writing it.

to explain what i was thinking when i wrote that - bird was not the volume scorer that bryant is. he did not get shots up as quickly or easily even when kc jones was just riding him (like when he scored 60), and though his handle was good, he could be bothered when trying to use the dribble to get where he wanted to be for a shot if an excellent, lanky defender really zeroed in on him (i'm thinking cooper here). did he have other answers to these things? yes, like going into the post or running a give and go. but one of the reasons that kobe can throw up back to back to back to back 50 point games is that when he's on fire, he basically can't even be bothered. he can use his quick dribble, elevate, and fade to get a relatively clean look over any defender. given the no-touch rule, it means when his outside game is on, he's capable of having incredible scoring outbursts.

edit: i also think kobe's all-around game is underrated by some people. he was the only penetrator / creator on the shaq dynasties. once shaw left he was the best lob passer for oneal. he was the only slashing scorer who got significant minutes. he was the best perimeter defender. after harper left he was the only guard capable of getting on the boards. he was their clutch go to guy - though horry and fisher hit their share of enormous shots in last second situations as well. he really did have a ton of responsibility on that team. though he'll never win a versatility contest with larry bird (or jordan or lebron who he also gets compared to a lot) obviously, i just thought i'd bring that up because i don't think it gets mentioned.

going by the description in kblaze's post (which i agree with), bird is basically the most complete scorer ever but happened to be on a team that required him to be more of an all-around weapon than a pure point producer. i can say he's inarguably the best passing front court player i've seen. nobody's even close. as a small forward the only rebounders i can think of who were clearly superior were rodman, barkley, garnett, and baylor - most of whom wound up being power forwards. he's not a lockdown one on one defender by any means, but he was an excellent team defender who made a couple all-d teams. his clutch production is legendary as is his leadership.

so let me ask you guys who are propping larry here (which i have no problem with) - is he your goat? if not, why? i know why i would pick mj, but i'd like to know what other people think.

[Knoe Itawl]

Not really sure how it's relevent at all, Kobe takes shots because he has too...you said so yourself, Bird had teammates that needed the ball.

If Kobe was a better decision maker with the basketball, he could possibly be the greatest scorer this league has ever seen. But he isn't, I question his decision making way too much for me to consider him better then Bird as a scorer...is he on the same level? Perhaps, more then likely he is...could he be better then Bird or Michael if he had better intangibles, I really have no doubt about it. I have seen Michael, Magic, Bird play and I will tell you straight up...no one has impressed me more then Kobe when he's dominating a game, is it as often as Bird or Jordan? No, those guys were a lot smarter and were a lot more fundamentally sound, and a lot more consistant with their legendary play...and in Jordan's favor, also more physically fit...but in terms of talent, I have a hard time putting anyone above Kobe. Guy has all the tools, but he lacks basketball IQ...plain and simple.

I watch Kobe do what he did to Dallas, Portland last season or Toronto...I remember his game against Washington (Jordan's last game), I remember him getting 3 triple doubles in a span of 6-7 games (when he said he'll concentrate on team play more)...this guy can do it all, he just doesn't know his limits, when he needs to take over a game. He watches his teammates mis 3-4 shots, and before you know it...he takes the next 6-7 shots for his team, he needs to trust his teammates more...he'll become a better player the day he sets his mind to it.

No. The problem is, that as good as he is (and he's very good) he's not as good as he THINKS he is, or as good as many of his fans THINK he is. He really thinks he can make a shot from anywhere at anytime and he can't. No one really can. What Kobe is is probably the greatest streak shooter in the history of the game. When he gets hot, it's hotter than anyone has ever gotten. And this is what fools people. It makes them think he's a better scorer (and player) than he really is. He is the ultimate volume shooter (hence the reason he's never shot over 50% even with Shaq on the team). When they're going, boy does he look great! When they're not going, he doesn't know when to pack it in and try to do other things. That's why (along the lines of what blaze was saying in another thread) as great as he is, he doesn't seem to have a great impact on WINNING (and this goes back to when Shaq was out during the three-peat years). His personality also doesn't help in that regard. It's also why, despite his high scoring exploits, I can't see how he's proven more than guys like Iverson, Tmac, Pierce as a FRANCHISE player. Magic impacted WINNING. Bird impacted WINNING. Jordan impacted WINNING. It's not all just about high scoring games and nice moves. Yes, I know his team sucks his team sucks. It's not about the team he has around him, it's his playing style. Sure he would win MORE with a better team, but I dont' know that it would translate to deep playoff success.

[crisoner]

No. The problem is, that as good as he is (and he's very good) he's not as good as he THINKS he is, or as good as many of his fans THINK he is. He really thinks he can make a shot from anywhere at anytime and he can't. No one really can. What Kobe is is probably the greatest streak shooter in the history of the game. When he gets hot, it's hotter than anyone has ever gotten. And this is what fools people. It makes them think he's a better scorer (and player) than he really is. He is the ultimate volume shooter (hence the reason he's never shot over 50% even with Shaq on the team). When they're going, boy does he look great! When they're not going, he doesn't know when to pack it in and try to do other things. That's why (along the lines of what blaze was saying in another thread) as great as he is, he doesn't seem to have a great impact on WINNING (and this goes back to when Shaq was out during the three-peat years). His personality also doesn't help in that regard. It's also why, despite his high scoring exploits, I can't see how he's proven more than guys like Iverson, Tmac, Pierce as a FRANCHISE player. Magic impacted WINNING. Bird impacted WINNING. Jordan impacted WINNING. It's not all just about high scoring games and nice moves. Yes, I know his team sucks his team sucks. It's not about the team he has around him, it's his playing style. Sure he would win MORE with a better team, but I dont' know that it would translate to deep playoff success.


The greatest STREAK shooter ever? Intersting take as always Knoe.

So tell me if I'm wrong...basically what your trying to say is Kobe's EGO affects his game and God given talents? And this affects his imapact for his teams to win?

And about winning MORE with a better team...he did have that with Shaq, Fox, Horry and Fisher and I think they went as deep as you can three times in a row.

[picc84]

You've gotta be one hell of a streak shooter to average 35 a game. :oldlol: Enough of one that it isnt 'streaks' anymore. :rolleyes:

[picc84]

2 questions that I would like to get your opinion on (especially from kblaze because he seems like an intelligent poster in this forum):

(1) If Larry Bird (prime) played in today's league, would he be considered a better player than kobe? (by "better" i mean more impact/dominant)

(2) If Kobe were to retire today or after this season, could he crack the top 20 greatest? (I know there was a thread on this and he ranked 24, but after answering the first question, your ranking of kobe may/maynot change)


1. Yes.
2. "Could" he? Yes.

[Da KO King]

Kobe would be considered better.

For all of Bird's skill he was never a jaw-dropping athlete and never really had games that amazed non-hardcore hoop fans. Kobe has those qualities in spades. In the end the ability to awe those that normally do not care about basketball would get Kobe the nod over Larry.

Stupid or not quite often that's how people determine who's better. The ability to amaze.

[EricForman]

Kobe would be considered better.

For all of Bird's skill he was never a jaw-dropping athlete and never really had games that amazed non-hardcore hoop fans. Kobe has those qualities in spades. In the end the ability to awe those that normally do not care about basketball would get Kobe the nod over Larry.

Stupid or not quite often that's how people determine who's better. The ability to amaze.

but....didn't bird amaze people in the 80s? weren't there also jaw-dropping athletes in the 80s that played during Bird's time?

[Da KO King]

but....didn't bird amaze people in the 80s? weren't there also jaw-dropping athletes in the 80s that played during Bird's time?
Bird amazed basketball fans. The general public knew of him but were not amazed by his performances or abilities.

[joshdavidson]

This is a stupid topic!
I'm a HUGE Kobe fan but Larry is a legend, maybe one day Kobe will reach that status but not right now. Kobe needs to lead the Lakers to the championship and win an MVP and then we can start the comparison.

[bleedinpurpleTwo]

while I am a Laker fan and a Celtic hata....

Bird would absolutely OWN this league today. The b-ball IQ today is significantly lower (primarily due to youth/potential). I believe he would easily be the best player in the league today.

If Kobe retired today? I think he would be deemed around 20th - 25th best all-time.

[Knoe Itawl]

You've gotta be one hell of a streak shooter to average 35 a game. :oldlol: Enough of one that it isnt 'streaks' anymore. :rolleyes:

Um, when did I ever say he wasn't a very good scorer? However, his 35ppg came with less than 50% shooting in today's era of coddled perimeter players. It's his streak scoring, however, that has given him the status he has.

[Knoe Itawl]

Bird amazed basketball fans. The general public knew of him but were not amazed by his performances or abilities.

Get outta here. there's a reason Magic, Bird (and later Jordan) were credited with blowing up the popularity of basketball. Just a ridiculous and FALSE statement.

[Da KO King]

Get outta here. there's a reason Magic, Bird (and later Jordan) were credited with blowing up the popularity of basketball. Just a ridiculous and FALSE statement.
Not at all. Bird receiving credit was a byproduct of the growing popularity of Michael Jordan, a conference rival, and Magic Johnson, a postseason rival.

[crisoner]

Yeah Larry didn't have the jaw dropping skills Mike and Kobe have...but Larry was smart about the game besides being a fierce competitor and leader.

You can't compare right now...simply because Kobe's career isn't over and he is just in his prime. But if you have to measure both to a point at where they are or where in thier the respective careers...I'd go with Bird.

Bird was the leader of his championship teams...
Bird had the Final MVP's as well as NBA rookie of the year honors etc.

Kobe still has something huge to proove before his career is over...and thats if he can lead his team to an NBA championship. He still has time..but he needs to do that before we start comparing him to the likes of Jordan, Magic or Bird.

[johndeeregreen]

Yeah Larry didn't have the jaw dropping skills Mike and Kobe have...
Bird's skills are a lot more jaw-dropping to me than Kirk Snyder cramming on Von Wafer, or Rafer Alston breaking someones ankles.

[picc84]

Kobe would be considered better.

For all of Bird's skill he was never a jaw-dropping athlete and never really had games that amazed non-hardcore hoop fans. Kobe has those qualities in spades. In the end the ability to awe those that normally do not care about basketball would get Kobe the nod over Larry.

Stupid or not quite often that's how people determine who's better. The ability to amaze.

Bird did enough jaw-dropping stuff to be right there with anybody. The only missing was the ft line dunks over people, but the rest of his trick shots and awe-inspiring play made up for that.

Plus, he's white, which wouldnt hurt at all.

[crisoner]

Do you think Bird gets more credit or less credit because he was white?

Do the white folks reveal him a lil too much or do black folks not give him enough props....because he is white.

[Knoe Itawl]

Not at all. Bird receiving credit was a byproduct of the growing popularity of Michael Jordan, a conference rival, and Magic Johnson, a postseason rival.

Nothing worse than a person who is flat out, 100% WRONG but continues on. The fact of the matter is that Bird became a part of pop culture in a similar way as Jordan (though obviously not that big). To suggest that only hardcore NBA fans knew, and were entertained/amazed by him is just flat out garbage.

[bleedinpurpleTwo]

Not at all. Bird receiving credit was a byproduct of the growing popularity of Michael Jordan, a conference rival, and Magic Johnson, a postseason rival.

surely you are joking. Bird was HUGELY popular and a dominant player before MJ even got to the league. The rivalry between Bird and Magic was a product of a) their individual greatness and b) entering the league at the same time.

MJ enjoyed the benefits of greatly increased league popularity generated by Bird/Magic.

[johndeeregreen]

The Bird/Magic rivalry was already in swing after their college careers.

Another chapter in Bird's greatness. He took fugging Indiana State to the championship game. Indiana. State. Sycamores.

[SoCalMike]

surely you are joking. Bird was HUGELY popular and a dominant player before MJ even got to the league. The rivalry between Bird and Magic was a product of a) their individual greatness and b) entering the league at the same time.

MJ enjoyed the benefits of greatly increased league popularity generated by Bird/Magic.

Those two (Magic and Bird) were popular when they were in college as well and got a lot of press coverage before entering the NBA.


:pimp:

[Kblaze8855]

Not really sure how it's relevent at all, Kobe takes shots because he has too...you said so yourself, Bird had teammates that needed the ball.

How could the fact he shoots a lot more not be relevant to how much he and Bird score? I didnt say he does it just to be selfish. But it justifies mentioning. Besides Kobe took more shots per game than Bird ever did as early as 2001. Kobe was 22 on a team with Shaq in his prime and taking(slightly) more shots than Bird at any point.

Different mentality I believe.


For all of Bird's skill he was never a jaw-dropping athlete and never really had games that amazed non-hardcore hoop fans.

Id actually say the exact opposite. Other than Jordan I dont think anyone in my time watching ball had more non hardcore fans supporting him. Im sure its partly because he was white but Bird got a lot of love from people who otherwise didnt even like basketball. Even though Magic was a more spectacular player(by a slim margin to me) I dont think he was ever as well known as Bird before the HIV issue. I had kids in school with me who seemed to never take a shot i ntheir lives who thought Larry was god. And this is in 80s chicago when Jordan was the deity of choice.

[elz]

Not at all. Bird receiving credit was a byproduct of the growing popularity of Michael Jordan, a conference rival, and Magic Johnson, a postseason rival.


Normally I agree wit your post

but this one is wrong

Bird was a beast in college and went pro in 1979-80
He was self made from the time he stepped foot in college he was the man
and this is 5yrs before Jordans 84-85 rookie season
Bird and Magic play'd in the finals before Michael was a Rookie

everyone was amazed at his performances
(pist cuz Im defending Larry Bird and I hate Larry Bird as when I grew up he stunk and they never gave Reggie lewis credit cuz they couldn't wait for Larry to come back from his back injuries)
His abilities weren't special but that boy hustled his behind off and he was insanely clutch and talked crazy sht and backed it up.

I don't like Larry at all mostly cuz alot of people when I grew up acted like he was better than Magic and he wasn't so I grew up hating his guts!
But I dont deny him the credit he deserves either.

[Los Angeles]

In 4 seasons now Kobe has taken more shots than Bird did in any season.

I was replying to this quote, not what Kobe did in 2001.
Bird never had as weak of a team as Kobe, his entire career. Kobe can't rely on McHale and others to take the load of his shoulder, I see absolutely no relevance in comparing Kobe's last 4 seasons to Bird's career...one player had the support of "hall of fame" players, the other has Lamar Odom as his 2nd option, big difference. I don't see how we can fairly compare the amount of shots each person took under these circumstances as a credible source of evidence toward anything substantial.

Now I'm not saying you're wrong...your post was excellent, I just mainly responded to your one line that I disagreed with, with the reasons I stated above. If you would have said Kobe took more shots in 2001 or something when he had Shaquille, I wouldn't have said anything to you. Even though I still wouldn't compare Bird's career to Kobe's early stages, because he was still a kid...he wasn't nearly as ready to enter the league as a Larry Bird or Michael Jordan...I didn't expect him to mature right away.

Do you agree before LA had all those injuries, that Kobe played excellent ball...within a team concept? Last season.

[Kblaze8855]

I was replying to this quote, not what Kobe did in 2001.
Bird never had as weak of a team as Kobe, his entire career. Kobe can't rely on McHale and others to take the load of his shoulder, I see absolutely no relevance in comparing Kobe's last 4 seasons to Bird's career...one player had the support of "hall of fame" players, the other has Lamar Odom as his 2nd option, big difference.

Thats just it. I wasnt doing the last 4. Kobe only took 20 a game in 2005. The 4 seasons where he shot more than Bird ever did were 2001, 2003, 2006, and last year. I didnt feel a need to explain it at the time. Sorry for any confusion.


I don't see how we can fairly compare the amount of shots each person took under these circumstances as a credible source of evidence toward anything substantial.

The whole point to begin with was that they are in positions too different to assume ppg totals are based on nothing but ability. That Kobe has to shoot more and Bird had less reason to shoot a lot was what I was trying to say.


Now I'm not saying you're wrong...your post was excellent, I just mainly responded to your one line that I disagreed with, with the reasons I stated above. If you would have said Kobe took more shots in 2001 or something when he had Shaquille, I wouldn't have said anything to you. Even though I still wouldn't compare Bird's career to Kobe's early stages, because he was still a kid...he wasn't nearly as ready to enter the league as a Larry Bird or Michael Jordan...I didn't expect him to mature right away.

Do you agree before LA had all those injuries, that Kobe played excellent ball...within a team concept? Last season.

Id say so. Just dont know how long that was. 3 weeks or so?

[Los Angeles]

Id say so. Just dont know how long that was. 3 weeks or so?

A lot longer then that man.

They beat the following teams before February, Toronto, Chicago, New Jersey, Utah, San Antonio (x2), Houston (x2), Denver, Dallas...their record was 28-18 before injuries took over.

Mind you Kobe was far from 100%, and LA were missing their starting center and arguably their best bench player (Vlad) had a hand injury.

My friend who absolutely hates Kobe actually emailed me before Xmas and told me how he appreciates Kobe now. When we watched the All-Star game together, and Kobe won the MVP...he even said "Kobe deserved it."

It's a big deal because this guy hates Kobe more then anyone I've ever met, he's a big Jordan fan by the way. Anyways besides the point, I think last season Kobe played within a team concept for most part until injuries occured and teams started to press a little harder in the 2nd half because of playoff positioning...and our team (with injuries) and mainly because of the young core of players...folded, and Kobe took it upon himself to carry this team to the playoffs by scoring an unbelievable 37 PPG after the all-star break.

Do I question Kobe's "selfish" play post All-Star break, perhaps a little but it overshadows the appreciation I have for his determination to win games. And I truly believe Kobe didn't want to miss the playoffs, moreso then him chasing another scoring title. Of course I'm sure Knoe Itawl will have a different theory behind it.

[Knoe Itawl]

Bird never had as weak of a team as Kobe, his entire career.


Boy do I hate this line of "reasoning". It's used as an excuse to absolve Bryant of ANY responsibility for his team. He's basically bulletproof. If the Lakers win it's "WOW, can you believe they won with the garbage they have on the team??? Huh can you???? See how great Kobe is????" If they lose it's "Well, what do you expect, I mean Kobe has the worst team in the history of organized sports".

It's such garbage. I'm going to start saying that any all star level player I happen to like that was on a mediocre team "would" be wining championships, and act as if it's FACT.

KG - He's got at least 4 championships.
Pierce? 2 or 3 chips
Iverson? at least 3
LeBron? Shyt, he should have had a titles ever since his rookie year!
Mitch Richmond? Dude has like 3 titles
etc.

This way, no one ever has to prove anything! Just say "they're on a mediocre team, you KNOW if they were on a good team they'd be winning titles" and that makes it just as good as it actually happening. What fun!

[Da KO King]

I think most of you are too into hoops to see where I'm coming from. I live and work with a large number of people that have only a passing interest, at best, in basketball.

97% of the time when discussing a player's standing the more obviously amazing (read: jumps high runs fast or scores 81) player gets the nod.

By no means am I saying Larry Bird wasn't great. Hell if some of you would think for a second you might remember that I'm the guy that thinks Larry Bird was easily better than Magic Johnson.

My comment is more about my pessimism and disdain for sports media and casual sports fans then it is the ability of Larry Bird. While I know that Larry being white would get him a following I have no faith that it would be enough for people to acknowledge who is actually better.

[Los Angeles]

Boy do I hate this line of "reasoning". It's used as an excuse to absolve Bryant of ANY responsibility for his team. He's basically bulletproof.

I was talking about the number of shots each player took respectively as leaders of their respective teams, had nothing to do with winning basketball games.

No one said Kobe was better then Bird, certainly not me.


Hell if some of you would think for a second you might remember that I'm the guy that thinks Larry Bird was easily better than Magic Johnson.


PLEASE tell me you're joking...better? You'll get a huge arguement from me..."easily better", you will just be ignored. Sorry but how in the world was Bird easily better then Magic Johnson? I really want to hear your reasoning behind this.

[Knoe Itawl]

I think most of you are too into hoops to see where I'm coming from. I live and work with a large number of people that have only a passing interest, at best, in basketball.

97% of the time when discussing a player's standing the more obviously amazing (read: jumps high runs fast or scores 81) player gets the nod.

By no means am I saying Larry Bird wasn't great. Hell if some of you would think for a second you might remember that I'm the guy that thinks Larry Bird was easily better than Magic Johnson.

My comment is more about my pessimism and disdain for sports media and casual sports fans then it is the ability of Larry Bird. While I know that Larry being white would get him a following I have no faith that it would be enough for people to acknowledge who is actually better.

You implied that Bird wasn't popular among non hardcore basketball fans, and that his popularity derived from Jordan's and some other things that are just flat out incorrect (as has been pointed out by pretty much everyone).

Accept that you're mistaken and move on. No big deal.

[Knoe Itawl]

I was talking about the number of shots each player took respectively as leaders of their respective teams, had nothing to do with winning basketball games.

No one said Kobe was better then Bird, certainly not me.

.

Wasn't so much about you, I'm just using your comment to speak in a general sense. I hear ad nauseum about how terrible Kobe's team is and how he "would" be winning titles and blah blah blah on (insert contender here) and I find it to be a cop out way of arguing. You can apply the same logic for any player on a mediocre to poor team, and like I said it absolves any player from ever having to prove anything. If you're on a mediocre team, thems the breaks. You don't get to enjoy hypothetical championships because of it, you have to earn them the same way as anyone else. Otherwise, like I said, EVERY all star level player that's ever been on a mediocre to poor team should enjoy the same argument.

[MaxFly]

I think Larry would be considered the best player in the league, but I'm not sure he would be viewed as highly as he was when he played with the Celtics, unfortunately. The one thing that this era stresses that his didn't is individual defense. Coaches now have become very fond of using isolation plays to take advantage of weak individual defenders, and that is perhaps the worst aspect of Larry's game. While he was a great help defender, he would be somewhat of a liability on an isolation. Because there is such a large turnover with personnel on modern teams, it is rare for a team to develop that team chemistry that would allow Larry's help defense to shine. Imagine him being caught on an isolation with Melo, Lebron, T-Mac or any number of the other small forwards or 2 guards in the league.

Modern basketball places a greatter emphasis on individual defense, and that would certainly serve to tarnish his legacy somewhat.

[steve franchise]

Larry, he's a better player and hustler

[SomeBunghole]

Larry DID play on a team that was as bad as the cast Kobe currently has around him. People forget that the Celtics were not a good team the couple of seasons before Larry's arrival. They won something like 25 games his senior year of college. They won 61 his rookie season. And there were no additions to the team beside him. Tiny and Cowens got even older, McAdoo had left for LA, and a knackered up Maravich had a cup of coffee in Boston that year. Same team, 35 game swing.

[MaxFly]

Larry DID play on a team that was as bad as the cast Kobe currently has around him. People forget that the Celtics were not a good team the couple of seasons before Larry's arrival. They won something like 25 games his senior year of college. They won 61 his rookie season. And there were no additions to the team beside him. Tiny and Cowens got even older, McAdoo had left for LA, and a knackered up Maravich had a cup of coffee in Boston that year. Same team, 35 game swing.

Hmmm, wouldn't say it was as simple as adding Larry, though I have no doubt that his addition was a big part of it... The year before he was drafted, we only won 29 games, but there were only 6 players who managed to play more than 55 games for us. The next season, 11 out of 12 players managed to play at least 55 games for us. There was a lot of turnover...

[SomeBunghole]

Hmmm, wouldn't say it was as simple as adding Larry, though I have no doubt that his addition was a big part of it... The year before he was drafted, we only won 29 games, but there were only 6 players who managed to play more than 55 games for us. The next season, 11 out of 12 players managed to play at least 55 games for us. There was a lot of turnover...

Oh, I know, there were injuries left and right, but Larry's contribution was...well...tremendous. I know the phrase "made those around him better" is thrown around a lot, but man oh man, what Larry did to that team. Tiny had an indian summer of sorts, everyone's confidence soared...

You know, that's probably the one thing that I would say differentiates Larry from Kobe qualitatively as opposed to quantitatively. That year, and on throughout the 80s, you could really feel that Larry's teammates loved playing with him, and wanted to play with him, and enjoyed playing with him. The last few years, you couldn't help but notice that playing with Kobe looks like a chore to a lot of his teammates.

[Da KO King]

You implied that Bird wasn't popular among non hardcore basketball fans, and that his popularity derived from Jordan's and some other things that are just flat out incorrect (as has been pointed out by pretty much everyone).

Accept that you're mistaken and move on. No big deal.
No you implied he was equally as important to the boom of the NBA as Michael Jordan was and I disagreed with that.

[picc84]

I always thought Bird was easily better than Magic too.

Not easily as in 'by a lot', just that it wasnt a very difficult pick to make.

Dont see what the big deal about that is.

[Los Angeles]

Not easily as in 'by a lot', just that it wasnt a very difficult pick to make.

Considering I would take Magic 10 times out of 10, it's a big deal to me.
I don't mind anyone picking Bird, because it's Larry Bird...but blowing things out of proportion like that is just amusing to me. We obviously value different aspect of the game, I would take Magic to lead my team over any basketball player dead or alive, period.

I loved his leadership, he was glue when it came to chemistry...he didn't need to score 60 points like Jordan or Bird to dominate the game, he trusted his teammates and made it easy for them. I believe every role player would rather play with Magic then Bird or Jordan, because he'll make the game look so easy for them. Let's not forget this guy was a career 50% shooter, and could play all 5 positions effectively. I really can't see how you can easily choose anyone over such a package...just mind boodling.

[Loki]

I always thought Bird was easily better than Magic too.

Not easily as in 'by a lot', just that it wasnt a very difficult pick to make.

Dont see what the big deal about that is.

The "big deal" is that Laker fans are the biggest homers alive. :)

I agree with you about Bird/Magic, btw.


Considering I would take Magic 10 times out of 10, it's a big deal to me.

I rest my case. :D



And I disagree that Bird's rep would be hurt because of the supposed "emphasis" on individual defense. Melo's not a great defender; Dirk's not; Lebron's not (though he's been showing signs recently); Wade's not; AI's never been -- it's hurt none of their legacies or reputations (thus far).

[bleedinpurpleTwo]

side note:
you have 8 seconds remaining in the game. game tied. who would you rather handle the ball?

Kobe? dribble, dribble, dribble shoot. Yes, he is clutch and may make the shot.

nope.
I would MUCH rather have Bird. You just KNEW he was going to make THE PLAY. the pass. the shot. whatever. If he had the ball in the final seconds, he was going to win.

[johndeeregreen]

..

No you implied he was equally as important to the boom of the NBA as Michael Jordan was and I disagreed with that.


The fact of the matter is that Bird became a part of pop culture in a similar way as Jordan (though obviously not that big).

[Los Angeles]

Regular Season

Magic Johnson: 19.5 ppg, 11.2 apg, 7.2 rpg, 1.9 spg on 52%
Larry Bird: 24.3 ppg, 10.0 rpg, 6.3 apg, 1.7 spg on 50%

Playoffs

Magic Johnson: 19.5 ppg, 12.3 apg, 7.7 rpg, 1.88 spg on 51%
Larry Bird: 23.8 ppg, 10.3 rpg, 6.5 apg, 1.80 spg on 47%

Accomplishments

Finals MVP

Bird-- 2
Magic-- 3

MVP

Bird-- 3
Magic-- 3

All-Stars

Bird-- 12
Magic-- 12

1st Team All-NBA

Bird-- 9 times
Magic-- 9 times

NBA Champion

Bird-- 3 times
Magic-- 5 times

They also played each other in the NCAA championship, this is the greatest rivalry in NBA history to me, how on earth can you say something like "I would easily take Larry Bird."


The "big deal" is that Laker fans are the biggest homers alive.

Thank you Loki for proving my point, you never seize to amaze me.
I said that for a reason because I wanted to see how many people would jump down my throat for saying something so arrogant, and guess what you had absolutely no comment when someone said they'll easily take Bird before Magic, yawn...your hared for LA is not healthy, get a team and stop annoying the Laker nation, I'm honestly sick of you appearing in every Laker/Kobe thread.

But of course when someone says something arrogant in favor of Kobe/Lakers, you're always here to put the spotlight on them. You're unbelievable, how am I a homer for choosing Magic over Bird?

I never had a problem with someone taking Bird, I just had a problem when someone made it sound like they're not even comparable. Their careers are a mirror image of each other.


I agree with you about Bird/Magic, btw.

Of course you do, homer!!

[johndeeregreen]

What a hypocritical post.

You chastise people for taking Bird easily right after you said you'd take Magic 10 out of 10 times.:oldlol:

Gold. I agree with your alter ego that says they're damn close, though.

[Los Angeles]

You chastise people for taking Bird easily right after you said you'd take Magic 10 out of 10 times.

Read my second post...obviously you all are having trouble digesting, I proved my point.

[johndeeregreen]

I read your post. You said you take Magic 10/10 times and then say it's ignorant to take Bird easily (easily as in 10/10 times) because their careers or close. That's hypocritical.

[Los Angeles]

You said you take Magic 10/10 times and then say it's ignorant to take Bird easily (easily as in 10/10 times) because their careers or close. That's hypocritical.


Thank you Loki for proving my point, you never seize to amaze me.
I said that for a reason because I wanted to see how many people would jump down my throat for saying something so arrogant, and guess what you had absolutely no comment when someone said they'll easily take Bird before Magic,

In regards to me taking Magic over Bird 10 out of 10 times, obviously I wouldn't because they're so damn close!!

[RagingBull33]

The one thing that this era stresses that his didn't is individual defense. Coaches now have become very fond of using isolation plays to take advantage of weak individual defenders, and that is perhaps the worst aspect of Larry's game.
You know Steve Nash, LeBron James, and Dirk Nowitzki are stars today?

[johndeeregreen]

In regards to me taking Magic over Bird 10 out of 10 times, obviously I wouldn't because they're so damn close!!
:oldlol:

Egg on my face! Muh bad.

[picc84]

Considering I would take Magic 10 times out of 10, it's a big deal to me.
I don't mind anyone picking Bird, because it's Larry Bird...but blowing things out of proportion like that is just amusing to me. We obviously value different aspect of the game, I would take Magic to lead my team over any basketball player dead or alive, period.

I loved his leadership, he was glue when it came to chemistry...he didn't need to score 60 points like Jordan or Bird to dominate the game, he trusted his teammates and made it easy for them. I believe every role player would rather play with Magic then Bird or Jordan, because he'll make the game look so easy for them. Let's not forget this guy was a career 50% shooter, and could play all 5 positions effectively. I really can't see how you can easily choose anyone over such a package...just mind boodling.

You're overreacting. I already said i didnt mean easily as in "bird is lots better" than Magic.

Put it this way. I really like Pizza Hut, and I really like Papa Johns. On a scale of 1-10, my love fot PH would be a 10, my love for PJ would be a 9. If someone asked me which one I want, to me it would be an easy choice. Pizza hut. Not because it blows Papa Johns out of the water, but because I think its better and my choice is made off which I think is better.

Same with Bird and Magic. I can understand you thinking Magic was better, they were extremely close. But I think Bird was better, and the choice was easy b/c my mind was made.

[Los Angeles]

You're overreacting. I already said i didnt mean easily as in "bird is lots better" than Magic.

I didn't overreact because you didn't clarify what you meant with your original post, now you explained to me and I have no problem with your answer. :cheers:

[Loki]

Los Angeles, the problem with your little charade is that no one (to my knowledge) said that they'd take Bird over Magic easily. You then turn around and state that you'd take Magic 10 times out of 10 (which is equivalent to saying that it's an "easy" choice). Looks like you were the only one suggesting that it would be an "easy" choice either way.

[Los Angeles]

You then turn around and state that you'd take Magic 10 times out of 10 (which is equivalent to saying that it's an "easy" choice). Looks like you were the only one suggesting that it would be an "easy" choice either way.

I already cleared that up Loki, did you read my response to you. I was responding to King KO when he said he'd take Bird over Magic easily...if I came out and said that exact phrase I'm sure I would have been called a "homer" by the likes of you.


Looks like you were the only one suggesting that it would be an "easy" choice either way.

Read my comparison thread, and read the part where I'm addressing you, for clarification regarding my pretense arrogance.


Looks like you were the only one suggesting that it would be an "easy" choice either way.


By no means am I saying Larry Bird wasn't great. Hell if some of you would think for a second you might remember that I'm the guy that thinks Larry Bird was easily better than Magic Johnson.

I was responding to Da KO King, who said that on page 4 of this thread...

[picc84]

Actually, I said I thought Bird was 'easily' better than Magic. And i'm pretty sure Da KO King did too.

[Loki]

I must have missed Da KO King's post saying that. My bad.

[MaxFly]

Read my second post...obviously you all are having trouble digesting, I proved my point.

SMH... posters setting up traps for other posters and what not... it actually working, getting posters to apologize...

[TheHonestTruth]

Do you think Bird gets more credit or less credit because he was white?

Do the white folks reveal him a lil too much or do black folks not give him enough props....because he is white.

Less credit. Minorities in anything will always receive less credit. That is THE HONEST TRUTH.

[clayton]

Oldschoolers, I'm sorry but I don't think Bird will do well in a modern basketball game. And wtf is this "played with legends" when any era would have legends? So we have to wait for 20 years to say Kobe played with legends? So some of you are saying old 70's - 90's are real legends while the modern/future players are nothing compared to them? I guess I do have to wait for 20 years to say Kobe did played with legends.

[johndeeregreen]

Oldschoolers, I'm sorry but I don't think Bird will do well in a modern basketball game.
I'm sorry, but you're an idiot if you expect anybody to believe this crap, especially when you don't give ANY logic whatsoever to back it up.

[VCMVP1551]

Bird played at the same time as Jordan, Dr. J and Dominique..the only 2 players who are as athletic as those players in the current NBA are Vince Carter and Lebron James. The athletes are not better in the current NBA.

[Kblaze8855]

Less credit. Minorities in anything will always receive less credit. That is THE HONEST TRUTH.

In sports thats often the exact opposite. Danica Patrick gets a lot of undue praise. Same for Michelle Wie. Really think Tiger Woods being black/asian isnt a major reason hes so famous? The Williams sisters too. Back when Jason Williams was popular...think being white had nothing to do with it? He was putting up like 11/6 and being a top 5 jersey seller because he was White Chocolate. Being different gets people a lot of love in sports.

And saying Bird gets underrated because hes white is just crazy. I know that black people oppressing white people in sports is your gimmick but its just insane on this one. Larry Bird was being named the GOAT by many 1986. Hes probably as consistiently praised a player as has ever played. White people are the majority and Bird was loved by them.



Oldschoolers, I'm sorry but I don't think Bird will do well in a modern basketball game.

How long ago do you think Larry played?

Larry Bird only missed out on playing in the league with Shaq by 3 months. Kobe came into the league 4 years after Bird left. Hell there are guys who played on teams with both Kobe and Larry Bird. Rick Fox and Brian Shaw for examples. Not like he played in the 30s. Larry Bird did play in modern basketball...

[VCMVP1551]

How long ago do you think Larry played?

Larry Bird only missed out on playing in the league with Shaq by 3 months. Kobe came into the league 4 years after Bird left. Hell there are guys who played on teams with both Kobe and Larry Bird. Rick Fox and Brian Shaw for examples. Not like he played in the 30s. Larry Bird did play in modern basketball...

Thank you! I don't know why people think the 80's is like the 30's. Jordan, Dr. J and Nique could jump out of the gym as well as anyone today. Bird had to play against them. He played the same position as Nique and Dr. J. Bird outplayed Dominique in that famous 4th quarter duel in 1988 too. A lot of people forget about that and Nique was bigger and more athletic than Kobe.

[Hardtop Hero]

lol, Los Angeles just seems to be the type of guy to go in all half cocked (because he's a homer) and then have to spend a lot of time bactracking and explaining why he's not. Doesn't seem like such a bad dude, but it's funny how he keeps trying to deny he's a homer though he keeps doing homerish things.

[geeWiz15]

And saying Bird gets underrated because hes white is just crazy. I know that black people oppressing white people in sports is your gimmick but its just insane on this one. Larry Bird was being named the GOAT by many 1986. Hes probably as consistiently praised a player as has ever played. White people are the majority and Bird was loved by them.
you're right but how do you explain the fact that 9 out of 10 people would take Magic over Bird?

the only difference between the 2 is that one had style and the other had game winners.

[Samurai Swoosh]

Don't mean to go off track, BUT ...

Pizza Hut v.s. Poppa Johns?

That like saying, who is the best player in the NBA?

Brian Scalebrine or Viktor Khrypa ...

Didn't mean to call you out on it ... but Pizza Hut and Poppa Johns is like the McDonals and Burger King of the pizza biz. You have to step your pizza game up, fam.

[bleedinpurpleTwo]

you're right but how do you explain the fact that 9 out of 10 people would take Magic over Bird?

the only difference between the 2 is that one had style and the other had game winners.

"the other had game winners"? you might want to qualify that.
Magic had plenty of those...even in the Garden, no less.

[Kblaze8855]

you're right but how do you explain the fact that 9 out of 10 people would take Magic over Bird?

the only difference between the 2 is that one had style and the other had game winners.

9 out of 10 people who dont remember them well might(even thats unlikely I think...maybe 60-70% magic). Bird vs Magic was and still is a huge debate among people who actually remember him. I grew up around almost nothing but black people and it was still about 50/50.

My uncle seemed to think Larry Walked on water.

[picc84]

Don't mean to go off track, BUT ...

Pizza Hut v.s. Poppa Johns?

That like saying, who is the best player in the NBA?

Brian Scalebrine or Viktor Khrypa ...

Didn't mean to call you out on it ... but Pizza Hut and Poppa Johns is like the McDonals and Burger King of the pizza biz. You have to step your pizza game up, fam.

Yes, it seems that in my effort to make a simple point clarifying a small misunderstanding, I neglected to consider the clearly more pertinent matter that there may be better pizza in existence than that of pizza hut or papa johns. Clearly, the revelation of my 'pizza game' not being as deliciously first-class as it could be is the real success here.

[bleedinpurpleTwo]

Don't mean to go off track, BUT ...

Pizza Hut v.s. Poppa Johns?

That like saying, who is the best player in the NBA?

Brian Scalebrine or Viktor Khrypa ...

Didn't mean to call you out on it ... but Pizza Hut and Poppa Johns is like the McDonals and Burger King of the pizza biz. You have to step your pizza game up, fam.

dude, Pizza Hut is WAY better than Papa Johns.

[Kblaze8855]

Papajohns makes the best pizza of any national chain. BBQ chicken and bacon is godly.

[picc84]

Actually, it doesnt.

And so it begins.

[bleedinpurpleTwo]

Papajohns makes the best pizza of any national chain. BBQ chicken and bacon is godly.

how about California Pizza Kitchen...they are a national chain ???

[SoCalMike]

how about California Pizza Kitchen...they are a national chain ???

CPK does not deliver tho...



:pimp:

[bleedinpurpleTwo]

CPK does not deliver tho...



:pimp:

well, Mike, no one said anything about delivery...just national chain.
there you go again...always trying to change these discussions to meet your own agenda. :)

[gts]

well, Mike, no one said anything about delivery...just national chain.
there you go again...always trying to change these discussions to meet your own agenda. :)to thoroughly enjoy pizza it needs to be delivered..if you have to go out and get it something is lost in the moment...lol

same applies to chinese food btw

[bleedinpurpleTwo]

to thoroughly enjoy pizza it needs to be delivered..if you have to go out and get it something is lost in the moment...lol

same applies to chinese food btw

then you've never been to Patsie's Pizza or Grimaldi's (the originals) and split a pie over a bottle of red.
(but I know what you mean).

[SoCalMike]

well, Mike, no one said anything about delivery...just national chain.
there you go again...always trying to change these discussions to meet your own agenda. :)

I'm a bad, bad, man!



:pimp:

[bleedinpurpleTwo]

I'm a bad, bad, man!



:pimp:


:roll:

[gts]

I'm a bad, bad, man!



:pimp:hahaha too funny

[Samurai Swoosh]

Yes, it seems that in my effort to make a simple point clarifying a small misunderstanding, I neglected to consider the clearly more pertinent matter that there may be better pizza in existence than that of pizza hut or papa johns. Clearly, the revelation of my 'pizza game' not being as deliciously first-class as it could be is the real success here.
Don't catch feelings. It was just a joke. You should have named a place like "Reggios" or something. Family joints are usually the best. But I'd have to be dirt poor to resort to a pizza from one of those place, living in Chicago and all ...

[picc84]

Ah, darn it - Reggios! *slaps forehead* I knew I was forgetting a place! Although it could just be that I had no idea it existed. As is likely the case with the dozens of other posters, more importantly the guy I was talking to, who arent from chicago and would probably have had no idea what in the hell I was talking about.

But yea, next time im making a simple point involving fast food, i'll google popular, localized restaurant chains, fly out to taste all of them, then rush to the nearest net cafe so my post will be sufficiently 'taste-accurate', if only to those living in that specific zip code.

In light of the fact that all I wanted to accomplish was explaining what I meant by my bird/magic comments, I think the choice in dough and cheese used as a medium to express that could pretty accurately be described as 'entirely insignificant'. :confusedshrug:

Just a joke, btw. Har har.

[Samurai Swoosh]

It was a joke, LOL ... easy there, bud.

[picc84]

I'm fine.

And it was a bad joke. Well worth the paragraphs of sarcasm mocking it. Step your joke game up. You're on domino's when you should be on rocky rococo.

[Samurai Swoosh]

Not so much a joke, more like good natured ribbing. I've dropped jokes round here, before.

You sounded awfully bitter beer face for knowing it was sarcasm or ball busting. The paragraph of un-amusing mockery wasn't a necess. Anyway, have fun with your fast food pizza.

[picc84]

Not so much a joke, more like good natured ribbing. I've dropped jokes round here, before.

You sounded awfully bitter beer face for knowing it was sarcasm or ball busting. The paragraph of un-amusing mockery wasn't a necess.

It was. Just the sheer, unadulterated stupidity of saying I should have gone with chicago local 'reggios', even as a joke, warranted it, in spades. Plus, im bored.


Anyway, have fun with your fast food pizza.

The Reggios family hates you, and spits in your food.

[Samurai Swoosh]

There is no "Reggios" ... I said you should've made up an italian sounding name to make it sound authentic for a better alternative in terms of the comparison sake ... or even quality.

[picc84]

According to a 3 second google search, there is a Reggio's pizza, and it is located in Chicago, and quite prominently at that. Which is extremely bizaare that I would have to tell you, considering that you claim to live in Chicago and, more strangely, have already cited the place, by name, specifically. :wtf:

A little schizo, much?

[Samurai Swoosh]

WAIT.

I'm schizo, now? LOL ...

Cause I completely guessed on a name of a pizza shop? Arm chair psychologist a new hobby, or your academic major? B/c that doesn't even make sense in the context of what an actual schizophrenic illness is or defined by.

I'm fairly sure there is probably a "reggios pizza" of some kind in any city. I just picked a dominant italian name, and one that I could picture being the name of a pizza spot and rolled w/ it. You know since I "claim to live in Chicago" ... why I'd need to "claim", I have no idea ... but Chicago is a very large city, sparky. There are thousands of pizza joints. Hell, there is probably even different versions of a Reggios, or a Capones, or any other prominent italian sounding name. So, what's your point?

You must be extremely bored to research the name of a pizza place I gave in nonchalant passing, in order to keep this conversation going. You try counting sheep? Playing with crayons or something, bro?

LOL

[jazz12]

Larry Bird was scary good. Like Magic said, there will never be another Larry Bird. The guy was unreal.

[Samurai Swoosh]

The swag of the dude in your avatar is impenetrable. Love those commercials. "Eat it, how's lunch."

[picc84]

WAIT.

I'm schizo, now? LOL ...

Cause I completely guessed on a name of a pizza shop? Arm chair psychologist a new hobby, or your academic major? B/c that doesn't even make sense in the context of what an actual schizophrenic illness is or defined by.

I'm fairly sure there is probably a "reggios pizza" of some kind in any city. I just picked a dominant italian name, and one that I could picture being the name of a pizza spot and rolled w/ it. You know since I "claim to live in Chicago" ... why I'd need to "claim", I have no idea ... but Chicago is a very large city, sparky. There are thousands of pizza joints. Hell, there is probably even different versions of a Reggios, or a Capones, or any other prominent italian sounding name. So, what's your point?

You must be extremely bored to research the name of a pizza place I gave in nonchalant passing, in order to keep this conversation going. You try counting sheep? Playing with crayons or something, bro?

LOL

Oh, this is too rich. :oldlol:

So for the record, you said you were from chicago, then told me I should have used "Reggio's" - a prominent chicago pizza restaurant chain - instead of pizza hut, instead. Then you tell me Reggio's doesnt exist, when it does, then when I point that out, act as if its pure coincidence that a place specifically called "Reggio's Chicago Style Pizza" exists in Chicago, the city you live in, and that the first italian name you *ahem* 'randomly' thought of, coincidentally just happened to be one of the largest pizza restaurants in Chicago. Oh gawd this is good. :oldlol: Boy, what drugs are you on?


You must be extremely bored to research the name of a pizza place I gave in nonchalant passing,

Time it takes to type "reggio's" in firefox google toolbar: Approx. 2.8 seconds.
Time it takes for search results to appear: Approx. .0012 seconds.
Time it takes for Swoosh to take my foot out of his ***: Indeterminate.


B/c that doesn't even make sense in the context of what an actual schizophrenic illness is or defined by.

"A person experiencing schizophrenia may demonstrate symptoms such as disorganized thinking, auditory hallucinations, and delusions."

'i'm from chicago', 'you should have used reggio's', 'there is no reggio's', 'it was the first italian name i thought of', 'Reggio's Chicago Style Pizza', 'just coincidence',

Disorganized thinking, Swoosh....ring a bell? :oldlol:

[Samurai Swoosh]

WOW, LMAO ... I'm not even going to get into the semantics of any of that jibberish.

Yes, I'm a schizo w/ disorganized thinking. Even though to define someone as schizo it would usually be someone demonstrating not just one of those behaviors ... there would typically have to be more than one in a combonation. And even then, there have been few instances in history where someone was actually certifiably a schizophrenic. Either way, guy ...

You got me. You put your "foot in my ass" errr whatever, and I am a schizo w/ disorganized thinking. You're the man. You firefox and google, like the three headed monster in Boston.

Have @ it. You're the better man then me. You win, okay lil buddy? You beat me. You're the champ, you're the wise guy. LMAO ...

Hope you can sleep better now. Can't believe you still @ this ...

Calling you out on your horrible taste in pizza in jest must have struck a nerve or something. But like I said, you got me. You "owned" me ... "pawned" or whatever they call it.

Later, Debo.

[letsdothis]

hahaha you guys are hilarious (in a good way). I created this topic posing a question and alot of people were answering my questions. Then people started comparing magic and larry (completely ignoring kobe)...then started talking about pizza hut vs. papa johns haha.

[RainierBeachPoet]

Larry Bird was scary good. Like Magic said, there will never be another Larry Bird. The guy was unreal.

and larry's response was:

"there will probably be another "larry bird". there will never be another muggsy bogues though" (a paraphrase)

[RoseCity07]

Kobe is the only name anyone could through at MJ's name for greatest player ever. So since MJ is #1...I see Kobe somewhere in that gap between 2 and 20.

3 rings, 81 points...that's all I have to say.

[RainierBeachPoet]

he was an excellent team defender who made a couple all-d teams. his clutch production is legendary as is his leadership.

so let me ask you guys who are propping larry here (which i have no problem with) - is he your goat? if not, why? i know why i would pick mj, but i'd like to know what other people think.

these are two huge factors about the larry legend

i would add...

the original question of the thread is

If Larry Bird (prime) played in today's league, would he be considered a better player than kobe? (by "better" i mean more impact/dominant)

the short answer is yes

the difference is the intangible factors that bird had in his person and its ripple effects on his teammates-- no matter who they were

larry's work ethic, as a rookie, gained him immediate respect and was contagious.

his unwavering will to win also enabled trust from his teammates and everyone was sacrificing their own games for the good of the team

the above factors are what made bird standout as a player who made his team better, thus his "impact" factor was among the best in the league--- ever

[Los Angeles]

Los Angeles just seems to be the type of guy to go in all half cocked (because he's a homer) and then have to spend a lot of time bactracking and explaining why he's not. Doesn't seem like such a bad dude, but it's funny how he keeps trying to deny he's a homer though he keeps doing homerish things.

I suggest re-reading the entire thread again, and then come back to me.

[Hardtop Hero]

Kobe is the only name anyone could through at MJ's name for greatest player ever. So since MJ is #1...I see Kobe somewhere in that gap between 2 and 20.

3 rings, 81 points...that's all I have to say.

You = idiot

BULLS = idiot

Poseidon = idiot

Are you seeing a pattern here?

[bleedinpurpleTwo]

I really think we have gotten away from the whole point of this thread:

Pizza Hut vs. Papa Johns

[johndeeregreen]

3 rings, 81 points...that's all I have to say.
You should probably start looking into euthanasia as an option.

[Selenium]

You = idiot

BULLS = idiot

Poseidon = idiot

Are you seeing a pattern here?

Some people are idiots?

[jazz12]

Kobe is the only name anyone could through at MJ's name for greatest player ever. So since MJ is #1...I see Kobe somewhere in that gap between 2 and 20.

3 rings, 81 points...that's all I have to say.

Clearly scoring 81 points in a regular season game against the Toronto Raptors is one of the most amazing moments in NBA History... lol. Almost as impressive as getting 3 rings with some guy named Shaq.

[Los Angeles]

Clearly scoring 81 points in a regular season game against the Toronto Raptors is one of the most amazing moments in NBA History... lol.

Uhmm it is, your sarcasm needs work.
And by the way whoever said Kobe is #2-20 because he scored 81 points and won 3 championships is wrong by a country mile.

Kobe isn't top 20 right now, and has a lot of work to do if he wants be mentioned as one of the ten greatest basketball players of all-time, simple.

[picc84]

You got me. You put your "foot in my ass" errr whatever, and I am a schizo w/ disorganized thinking. You're the man. You firefox and google, like the three headed monster in Boston.

Have @ it. You're the better man then me. You win, okay lil buddy? You beat me. You're the champ, you're the wise guy. LMAO ...

Hope you can sleep better now. Can't believe you still @ this ...

Calling you out on your horrible taste in pizza in jest must have struck a nerve or something. But like I said, you got me. You "owned" me ... "pawned" or whatever they call it.

Later, Debo.

http://www.cheapandsleazy.net/images/ferris_bueller.jpg
"Chika-Chikaaaa" http://www.mysmiley.net/imgs/smile/cool/cool0003.gif

[crisoner]

Clearly scoring 81 points in a regular season game against the Toronto Raptors is one of the most amazing moments in NBA History... lol. Almost as impressive as getting 3 rings with some guy named Shaq.

It wasn't SHaq who got him all those rings. It was Rick Fox!!!

http://www.cbc.ca/gfx/topstory/sports/fox_rick0428.jpg

[Kblaze8855]

No. No gimmick. Black people are oppressing minorities (white, Asians, latinos) in the basketball league. They just can't stand if non blacks succeed. They can't handle not being a minority. They ***** so much about everything else where they are being the minority and how the whiteys are holding them down and how they need to have that stupid affirmative action thing in everything else that they aren't good at.

Ignoring for a moment the obvious racism there....

There are only 8 black GMs off the top of my head and the majority of coaches are also white. All but one owner is white. The commish is white. Deputy commish is white. Two of the 3 league vice presidents are white. The sponsers with real influence are white. The majority of the fans are white. The vast vast majority of the media is white. So who exactly are these black people who oppress the white players? Name these black people with power enough to oppress the white basketball players.



Bird wasn't underrated but he never did, and never will have the proper credit coming from the black community. And that goes for any successful non black basketball players, now and forever.

You dont strike me as much of an authority on what black people believe.

[Chrono90]

i think this topic is mostly argued between

those who wittnessed bird's legacy vs those who didnt

[letsdothis]

i think this topic is mostly argued between

those who wittnessed bird's legacy vs those who didnt

haha you are probably right.

kblaze was owning everyone by himself.

[MaxFly]

Ignoring for a moment the obvious racism there....

There are only 8 black GMs off the top of my head and the majority of coaches are also white. All but one owner is white. The commish is white. Deputy commish is white. Two of the 3 league vice presidents are white. The sponsers with real influence are white. The majority of the fans are white. The vast vast majority of the media is white. So who exactly are these black people who oppress the white players? Name these black people with power enough to oppress the white basketball players.




You dont strike me as much of an authority on what black people believe.

Indeed...

[Psileas]

With the "superstar gets 25 shots per game, no matter what" mentality that dominates the NBA, if Bird was playing, he would have no problem to repeat his prime numbers, without any upgrade to his game or athleticism at all. Only his FG% shooting might take a small drop, because he'd probably take a few more long-range shots.
For a serious team with much ball distribution, he would get numbers like 23/11/7/2 and plenty of rings. If Duncan is considered the best player in the game because of his intangibles and quiet dominance, Bird for sure would be the same: The best player in the league. Given that his stats would be superior to Duncan's, Kobe would get a smaller share of votes for "the best" than he does now.

[Pavel Podkolzin1]

Duncan is considered a best player by who? Certainly not by anyone in the NBA or around the NBA. That's Kobe, man. Easily.

[kwajo]

Duncan is considered a best player by who? Certainly not by anyone in the NBA or around the NBA. That's Kobe, man. Easily.
riiiight, because nobody thinks Duncan is the best player in the league...

[Los Angeles]

I think Duncan is the best player in the game, and I'm sure a lot of his peers do as well.

[johndeeregreen]

riiiight, because nobody thinks Duncan is the best player in the league...
Most people not on the website sure don't. Even most "experts" frequently call Bryant the best in the game.

[biisak]

Most people not on the website sure don't. Even most "experts" frequently call Bryant the best in the game.


Most people on this website are either A) 12 - 15 years old or B) Worthless homers. If you think that GMs or players in the league would select kobe over duncan if they wanted to actually win something, you belong in one of the categorys. Kobe

[johndeeregreen]

[QUOTE=biisak]Most people on this website are either A) 12 - 15 years old or B) Worthless homers. If you think that GMs or players in the league would select kobe over duncan if they wanted to actually win something, you belong in one of the categorys. Kobe

[TheHonestTruth]

[QUOTE=biisak]Most people on this website are either A) 12 - 15 years old or B) Worthless homers. If you think that GMs or players in the league would select kobe over duncan if they wanted to actually win something, you belong in one of the categorys. Kobe

[Da KO King]

[QUOTE=biisak]Most people on this website are either A) 12 - 15 years old or B) Worthless homers. If you think that GMs or players in the league would select kobe over duncan if they wanted to actually win something, you belong in one of the categorys. Kobe

[/\bstract]

Isn't it amazing how many posts a thread will receive simply by having that taboo four letter word ... KOBE!

Kobe VS Larry Bird... my god... have we really ran out every possible Kobe topic?

[letsdothis]

Isn't it amazing how many posts a thread will receive simply by having that taboo four letter word ... KOBE!

Kobe VS Larry Bird... my god... have we really ran out every possible Kobe topic?

no

[crisoner]

Kobe need to be compared to everything that exsists in this Universe.

Kobe vs. Rocks
Kobe vs. Greenland
Kobe vs. Pluto
Kobe vs. The Big Bang Therory

I can go on and on......

[steve]

Kobe need to be compared to everything that exsists in this Universe.

Kobe vs. Rocks
Kobe vs. Greenland
Kobe vs. Pluto
Kobe vs. The Big Bang Therory

I can go on and on......

What about "Kobe vs Dark Matter"?

[crisoner]

What about "Kobe vs Dark Matter"?

Good one...

Kobe vs. Anti Matter
Kobe vs. SARS
Kobe vs. Uganda
Kobe vs. The Speed of Light
Kobe vs. Ghandi

[Ryoga Hibiki]

I think Bird has clearly been a better offensive player, but not the better scorer.
I'll explain what I mean, Bird was much better at picking his own spots on offence, involving his teamates in way his team performed at best on offence. Kobe otoh, even when he was playing in a more talented team, could break plays and kill the flow of the team to take his own shots. Still, Kobe has the ability to take a decent shot in very few seconds that Bird didn't have, and that allows him to be totally unstoppable when he's on, coming out with 20+ points quarters.

[kidachi]

Good one...

Kobe vs. Anti Matter
Kobe vs. SARS
Kobe vs. Uganda
Kobe vs. The Speed of Light
Kobe vs. Ghandi


Kobe vs. Vick
Kobe vs. Anhtrax
Kobe vs. Nostradamus
Kobe vs. Tax
Kobe vs. gay marriage
Kobe vs. Mafia

[loot]

1 First God made heaven & earth 2 The earth was without form and void, and darkness was upon the face of the deep; and the Spirit of God was moving over the face of the waters. 3 And God said, "Let there be light"; and there was light. 4 And God saw that the light was good; and God separated the light from the darkness. 5 God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And there was evening and there was morning, one day. 6 And God said, "Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it separate the waters from the waters." 7 And God made the firmament and separated the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament. And it was so. 8 And God called the firmament Heaven. And there was evening and there was morning, a second day. 9 And God said, "Let the waters under the heavens be gathered together into one place, and let the dry land appear." And it was so. 10 God called the dry land Earth, and the waters that were gathered together he called Seas. And God saw that it was good. 11 And God said, "Let the earth put forth vegetation, plants yielding seed, and fruit trees bearing fruit in which is their seed, each according to its kind, upon the earth." And it was so. 12 The earth brought forth vegetation, plants yielding seed according to their own kinds, and trees bearing fruit in which is their seed, each according to its kind. And God saw that it was good. 13 And there was evening and there was morning, a third day. 14 And God said, "Let there be lights in the firmament of the heavens to separate the day from the night; and let them be for signs and for seasons and for days and years, 15 and let them be lights in the firmament of the heavens to give light upon the earth." And it was so. 16 And God made the two great lights, the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night; he made the stars also. 17 And God set them in the firmament of the heavens to give light upon the earth, 18 to rule over the day and over the night, and to separate the light from the darkness. And God saw that it was good. 19 And there was evening and there was morning, a fourth day. 20 And God said, "Let the waters bring forth swarms of living creatures, and let birds fly above the earth across the firmament of the heavens." 21 So God created the great sea monsters and every living creature that moves, with which the waters swarm, according to their kinds, and every winged bird according to its kind. And God saw that it was good. 22 And God blessed them, saying, "Be fruitful and multiply and fill the waters in the seas, and let birds multiply on the earth." 23 And there was evening and there was morning, a fifth day. 24 And God said, "Let the earth bring forth living creatures according to their kinds: cattle and creeping things and beasts of the earth according to their kinds." And it was so. 25 And God made the beasts of the earth according to their kinds and the cattle according to their kinds, and everything that creeps upon the ground according to its kind. And God saw that it was good. 26 Then God said, "Let us make a man in our image, after our likeness; and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the birds of the air, and over the NBA, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps upon the earth." 27 So God created Kobe Bryant in his own image, in the image of God he created him. And God saw everything that he had made, and behold, it was very good. But Kobe was best. And there was evening and there was morning, a sixth day.

[bleedinpurpleTwo]

It's official...
Kobe has now been compared to EVERY legend to ever play the game...except one.

who's better? Kobe or George Mikan ?

[Richie2k6]

Scoring: Kobe
Shooting: Bird
Passing: Bird
Rebounding: Bird
Leadership: Bird
Winning: Bird
Court Awarness: Bird
Defense: Kobe
Accolades/Awards: Bird

Bird wins.

[Poseidon]

Scoring: Kobe
Shooting: Bird
Passing: Bird
Rebounding: Bird
Leadership: Bird
Winning: Bird
Court Awarness: Bird
Defense: Kobe
Accolades/Awards: Bird

Bird wins.

Other than "winning" (both have 3 titles).....you breakdown seems pretty accurate. As of right now, Larry Legend is the better player. In 5-6 years, that could change (or maybe not).

Larry Bird = :pimp:

[Poseidon]

Is this a joke? Kobe, in his rookie year was 10 times the player Mikan ever was.

Mikan isn't even better than Yao, let alone Kobe.

I'd take Mehmet Okur (sp?) OVER Mikan or any other stiff from the 50's.

A prime Mikan in Today's game would be equivalent to Mark Madsen.

I'm so sick of these damn old timers!!!

[chains5000]

kobe would humiliate bird day n day out jus like mj did
Kobe's team would get eliminated in the playoffs just like mj's teams did:confusedshrug:

[Richie2k6]

kobe would humiliate bird day n day out jus like mj did
MJ humiliated Bird day in and day out? :oldlol: Oh man.

[chains5000]

Jordan's 90's team would sweep Bird's Celtics.
It's a shame there's no way of proving that, don't you think?

[chains5000]

rite but kobe humiliating bird statement is still true
If you're not talking about kobe beating the pacers with Bird as their coach, then :wtf:

[Richie2k6]

bird sux white ballers blow
Another newbie to add to my "Fools of ISH" list.

[chains5000]

bird sux white ballers blow
You're great at giving valid arguments and facts.
Are you Isiah Thomas?

[Jailblazers7]

In my opinion Larry Bird is the best pure basketball player to ever play the game. His skill and IQ are just absolutely off the charts. Who else could have had his career with the amount of athleticism that he possesed. I think you could put Bird with any group of players and in any era and it wouldnt affect his game at all because he is smart enough and skilled enough to play against anyone and be great.

[MaxFly]

You know Steve Nash, LeBron James, and Dirk Nowitzki are stars today?

And they are criticized relentlessly for their poor individual defense. If their individual defenses were better, would they be viewed as even better players? Of course... So I must ask, what is the purpose of pointing out that Nash, Lebron and Dirk are stars in response to my post?

[GMATCallahan]

Bird was a better overall player than Bryant. Granted, Kobe may be the better pure scorer and he's certainly a superior individual defender, but Bird was a much better shooter, rebounder, and passer. He was efficient, he scored without bogging down the offense, and he elevated his teammates. Bryant, conversely, comes up short in those regards.

Ramember, Bird led Boston to 61 wins, the Atlantic Division title, and the Eastern Conference Finals in 1980, and that was before he had Robert Parish and Kevin McHale on his team.

[Da_Realist]

Interesting take on the comparison I just read on another board.

The Oracle 23
Its always amusing to see this GOAT discussions when the NBA Live kids start throwing dunking, one on one pickup games, 81 point games and such into the mix.

Being the greatest player of all time has to do with one and only one thing.... What you did to win. It is and unfair contest in the sense that times differ and the rules are not the same. Pluses for this contest would be what you portrait yourself as ambassador of the game.

Sorry for the length but discussing the greatness of two good players is never going to be a one sentence discussion.

That being said...

The NBA Live fan club that permeates this board is obsessed with scoring, Larry Bird was a truly great basketball mind. He could have been a stat monster if he played with the Atlanta Hawks or any other lowly team. But his true genius was being the central cog that binds together a DOMINANT Franchise... For ten long years you could count on the Celtics to be there... Players came to their roster and stayed there. No issues of who should be the man. A true franchise player.

Kobe Bryant? Well you answer that.

Offense: People talk like Bird averaged 15 ppg! This guy have very similar numbers compared to Kobe scoring wise while playing in an extremely stacked team... He didn't have the luxury of jacking up 35 shots per for three season to improve his 'legacy'.

Stats: Bird is superior to Bryant by any statistical measure (but scoring by one point per game), even in departments typically dominated by guards such as steals & assists. Bird shot a better field goal, better from three, better from the free throw line, better defensive and offensive rebounder (10 per), better shot blocker, better in assists... Even in durability: Until Larry Legend was 31 and his back started acting up he never played less than 74 games in any season... Kobe has seasons of 60 games and 50 games played. Bird played 38 minutes per game even on the last years of a bad back Bryant averages 36 on his prime... Kobe holds the edge in turnover per game with 2.9 vs Birds 3.1 and of course jacking up shots... (to me it's always baffling why Bird being one of the most proficient three point shooters of all time, had the control to limit his attempts to under two per game while Kobe jacks up almost 4 per while averaging a 34% from that distance at his top Bird attempted 3 per, Kobe averages close to 6 in the last 5 seasons)

Defense: Bird wasn't the most athletic player in his time, but defensively he was no slouch. He made the NBA second defensive team 3 times. The only reason why Bird didn't made the first team was Bobby Jones and his 10 selections (I bet the NBA Live kids don't remember him) Michael Cooper and his 8 selections, Dennis Rodman and his 3 selections and some guy named Kevin McHale who was selected to 6 NBA defensive teams... Who is Kobe's competition for the NBA defensive team in his position? Raja Bell? Gary Payton back in the late 90's? Simply there isn't another big name player who can sway accolades away from Bryant in this era... things might change as Dwyane Wade gets a reputation.

However, when you think about Kobe and all his defensive prowess (something in the back of my mind reminds me of Tex Winter and his comments about Kobe's defense)... tell me... When was the last time you remember Kobe winning a game with something other than scoring or the 5 passes he has made in his career? Ask yourself the same question about Bird and you will see that great players find a way to win and even expand their capabilities when the game is on the line. So it's not what you CAN do... It's what YOU ACTUALLY DO to win.

Basketball IQ / Persona: I remember Bird diving for lose balls, stealing the ball from Isaiah Thomas to win a game, If you search in YouTube for that famous baby hook Magic Johnson made to beat the Celtics you will find Bird completely disregarding his man (knowing Magic was committed to shoot with only 2 ticks on the clock) making Johnson take an difficult shot he unfortunately made... The behind the back passes no one expected, the no look pass to a open slashing teammate, it seemed like Bird had a GPS position on everyone on the court. Right hand, left hand, outside shots, post up, running hooks, dribble, passing, rebounding... I remember him fist fighting Kareem Abdul Jabbar, Dr J and Bill Laimbeer (can't imagine Bird lying on his butt on the floor after Raja Bell crossed him on a playoff game)... It simply was amazing what Bird would do when the game was on the line.

Can you imagine Kobe coaching in the league? Being the GM of a franchise? Enough said.

Amabassador of the game: I won't go on stating about Kobe's legacy off the court... but I will like to mention that Bird had a GUARRANTEED contract when he decided to retire from the game. Celtics owner ask him if he really wanted to forfeit his last two big paycheck years when he simply had to remain 'active' and cash a check from home... Bird dd a lot of trash talking in between the lines but seldom outside of it... that is a huge difference.

One on one pick up game: One and only one question? Can Kobe fist fight?

81 Point game: I bet your house that if Bird played with the Raptors Kobe won't be scoring 81 points that day...

This discussion is moot, Kobe won't be half the player Bird was, it doesn't matter how much he scores.

[KB42PAH]

Scoring: Kobe
Ball-handling: Kobe
Passing: Kobe
Footwork: Kobe
Speed: Kobe
Defense: Kobe
Strenght: Kobe
Athleticism: Kobe
Midrange shooting: Kobe
3 point shooting: Kobe
Post play: Kobe
Killer instinct: Kobe
Slashing: Kobe
Overall skills: Kobe
Off-hand: Kobe
Free throw Shooting: Bird
Rebounding: Bird

Anyone who says Bird is better than Kobe is not only a pathetic person, but a person with no logical thought process and a clear agenda.

[Nash-tastic]

Scoring: Kobe
Ball-handling: Kobe
Passing: Kobe
Footwork: Kobe
Speed: Kobe
Defense: Kobe
Strenght: Kobe
Athleticism: Kobe
Midrange shooting: Kobe
3 point shooting: Kobe
Post play: Kobe
Killer instinct: Kobe
Slashing: Kobe
Overall skills: Kobe
Off-hand: Kobe
Free throw Shooting: Bird
Rebounding: Bird
:wtf:
Well its ok, you're the guy that thinks Kobe is the best jumpshooter in history

[KB42PAH]

:wtf:
Well its ok, you're the guy that thinks Kobe is the best jumpshooter in history

Reggie Miller: "Kobe is the best 3 point shooter in the NBA."

Coming from agruably one of the best shooters ever.

Kobe's midrange is only comparably matched by Michael Jordan, Sam Cassell, and Kevin Garnett.

[Nash-tastic]

Reggie Miller: "Kobe is the best 3 point shooter in the NBA."

Coming from agruably one of the best shooters ever.

Kobe's midrange is only comparably matched by Michael Jordan, Sam Cassell, and Kevin Garnett.
Link please
EDIT: Btw, Reggie just said "best 3 point shooter in the NBA", it does not imply that he is better of a shooter than Larry Bird

[KB42PAH]

Link please

Dan Patrick radio show in 2008, I have it saved on my computer - ill get it up soon.

[1~Gibson~1]

Scoring: Kobe
Ball-handling: Kobe
Passing: Kobe
Footwork: Kobe
Speed: Kobe
Defense: Kobe
Strenght: Kobe
Athleticism: Kobe
Midrange shooting: Kobe
3 point shooting: Kobe
Post play: Kobe
Killer instinct: Kobe
Slashing: Kobe
Overall skills: Kobe
Off-hand: Kobe
Free throw Shooting: Bird
Rebounding: Bird

Anyone who says Bird is better than Kobe is not only a pathetic person, but a person with no logical thought process and a clear agenda.:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :lol

[Diesel J]

Defense: Bird wasn't the most athletic player in his time, but defensively he was no slouch. He made the NBA second defensive team 3 times. The only reason why Bird didn't made the first team was Bobby Jones and his 10 selections (I bet the NBA Live kids don't remember him) Michael Cooper and his 8 selections, Dennis Rodman and his 3 selections and some guy named Kevin McHale who was selected to 6 NBA defensive teams... Who is Kobe's competition for the NBA defensive team in his position? Raja Bell? Gary Payton back in the late 90's? Simply there isn't another big name player who can sway accolades away from Bryant in this era... things might change as Dwyane Wade gets a reputation.




I said this before that Kobe only gets on because of his name. Battier last season was the easy pick over him but because he's a low key player, Kobe makes it:no:

[copper]

Scoring: Kobe
Ball-handling: Kobe
Passing: Kobe
Footwork: Kobe
Speed: Kobe
Defense: Kobe
Strenght: Kobe
Athleticism: Kobe
Midrange shooting: Kobe
3 point shooting: Kobe
Post play: Kobe
Killer instinct: Kobe
Slashing: Kobe
Overall skills: Kobe
Off-hand: Kobe
Free throw Shooting: Bird
Rebounding: Bird

Anyone who says Bird is better than Kobe is not only a pathetic person, but a person with no logical thought process and a clear agenda.

I gotta ask...how old are you? did you see Bird play?
here are their comparisons at 897 games each...kobe http://www.nba.com/playerfile/kobe_bryant/index.html
and bird http://www.nba.com/history/players/bird_summary.html

[copper]

clearly showing Bird leading every catagory except trailing ppg by .6.
even steals which bird averaged 1.73 pg blocks .84 pg
as for the ppg difference? kobe took 1568 more attempts from the 3point line.

[NY-Knicks]

I'd pick Kobe

[copper]

Not a valid comparison in my opinion.

Different players, different positions, different era. Both are legends in their sport, multi-champions, HOFers and Top 10 players at this point. However when Kobe's career is completed, I believe he will be rated and regarded higher than Larry Bird.

I still see Kobe going strong for another 5-6 seasons and he'll most likely end up the #2 greatest scorer of all time (behind Kareem) when he decides to hang 'em up along with a couple of more titles to his resume.
Birds back forced him into retirement and limited him towards end of career. If he werent injured? who knows where it would left his #s

[Heilige]

Not a valid comparison in my opinion.

Different players, different positions, different era. Both are legends in their sport, multi-champions, HOFers and Top 10 players at this point. However when Kobe's career is completed, I believe he will be rated and regarded higher than Larry Bird.

I still see Kobe going strong for another 5-6 seasons and he'll most likely end up the #2 greatest scorer of all time (behind Kareem) when he decides to hang 'em up along with a couple of more titles to his resume.


Where do you see Kobe being ranked on the all-time list once he is retired?

[LAShow24]

Scoring: Kobe
Ball-handling: Kobe
Passing: Kobe
Footwork: Kobe
Speed: Kobe
Defense: Kobe
Strenght: Kobe
Athleticism: Kobe
Midrange shooting: Kobe
3 point shooting: Kobe
Post play: Kobe
Killer instinct: Kobe
Slashing: Kobe
Overall skills: Kobe
Off-hand: Kobe
Free throw Shooting: Bird
Rebounding: Bird

Anyone who says Bird is better than Kobe is not only a pathetic person, but a person with no logical thought process and a clear agenda.

Dude you are the reason why people end up disliking Kobe because you are one to overrate a guy who has never even won as the "MAN" once, yet alone multiple times.
Why do you feel the need to put Kobe in a place he doesn't belong?
There is no shame in Kobe not being in the top 10 all time. Nothing wrong with that.
Anytime Kobe fails at something you overrate what happened. You say he lost to teams that were top 3 defensive teams all time just to promote your Kobe worship.

Stop it, it's not even ********* funny anymore.

[Scott Pippen]

Scoring: Kobe
Ball-handling: Kobe
Passing: Kobe
Footwork: Kobe
Speed: Kobe
Defense: Kobe
Strenght: Kobe
Athleticism: Kobe
Midrange shooting: Kobe
3 point shooting: Kobe
Post play: Kobe
Killer instinct: Kobe
Slashing: Kobe
Overall skills: Kobe
Off-hand: Kobe
Free throw Shooting: Bird
Rebounding: Bird

Anyone who says Bird is better than Kobe is not only a pathetic person, but a person with no logical thought process and a clear agenda.

:confusedshrug:

[AllenIverson3]

I was born in 1987 so I didn't really see Bird play however I have watched about 20-30 old games with Bird playing and I would easily say Larry. Bird was like Dirk Nowitzki with heart, killer instinct and Magic Johnson's court vision. I would rank only Jordan, Magic and maybe Shaq ahead of him. Kobe might crack top 20 but if he keeps playing at this level he has a shot at top 10-15. He needs to prove he can lead a team though..he doesn't need to win another ring but he has to have the success Pippen had as a leader.

:wtf: Bird>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Nowitzki lol...Dont put them in the same sentence

[copper]

No doubt. Unfortunately, when you rate players...it's about what they actually accomplished and not "What IF."

Longevity is taken into account when measuring/comparing 2 different players.
Very true, I just wanted to take into account he was forced out early. Thats what is tough about comparing different players. People have to look at the fact that Bird had maybe 7 seasons before he was limited by injury. Kobe will be able to double that playing time barring injury. So Totals at the end of both careers will be pointless. Comparisons should be based on averages per contest. Which Bird would win.( in my opinion)Im pretty sure that people that have been around for a few years would agree that Bird was a better player on almost all aspects.

[AllenIverson3]

Scoring: Kobe
Ball-handling: Kobe
Passing: Kobe
Footwork: Kobe
Speed: Kobe
Defense: Kobe
Strenght: Kobe
Athleticism: Kobe
Midrange shooting: Kobe
3 point shooting: Kobe
Post play: Kobe
Killer instinct: Kobe
Slashing: Kobe
Overall skills: Kobe
Off-hand: Kobe
Free throw Shooting: Bird
Rebounding: Bird

Anyone who says Bird is better than Kobe is not only a pathetic person, but a person with no logical thought process and a clear agenda.

:wtf: :eek: :oldlol:
get off Bryant's dick queer...Ur sayin' anyone who says bird is better than bryant is a person with no logical thought process and a clear agenda, and ur sayin' bryant is a better shooter, passer and defender? ur the one whos got no logical thought process...Anyways ur a Bryant stan so it wont matter

[Da_Realist]

It's so obvious some of you guys have never seen Bird play. Larry Bird vs Michael Jordan is an discussion you can have for ages. Larry Bird vs Kobe Bryant? No contest.

All you fantasy guys don't understand that a great basketball player is more than just a sum of his skills/athleticism. Kobe Bryant is a great scorer. Larry Bird is a great player. Big difference.

In fact Kobe's own coach, Jim Cleamons, compared him to Pete Maravich. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UlVbP-FAypc) :oldlol: Read between the lines...

[bladefd]

Why are we comparing 2 people that played completely different positions? Anyways, I am a Kobe fan and here is where I disagree completely with you:


Scoring: Kobe
Ball-handling: Kobe
Passing: Kobe
Footwork: Kobe
Speed: Kobe
Defense: Kobe - against SG's, Kobe is better but we are comparing him to Bird. Bird defended other SF's and PF's.
Strenght: Kobe - for a SG, he is strong but stronger than somebody who defended other PFs and SFs? Nope.
Athleticism: Kobe
Midrange shooting: Kobe
3 point shooting: Kobe
Post play: Kobe
Killer instinct: Kobe
Slashing: Kobe - I had a tough time with this one but Bird had wider wingspan. That would allow him to be better at slashing.
Overall skills: Kobe
Off-hand: Kobe
Free throw Shooting: Bird
Rebounding: Bird

Anyone who says Bird is better than Kobe is not only a pathetic person, but a person with no logical thought process and a clear agenda.

[ACCBaller1403]

Scoring: Kobe -just barely over Bird, put Bird in the same situations that Kobe was in and I have no doubt that he could produce just as well if asked.
Ball-handling: Kobe -Kobe easily
Passing: Bird -Bird easily
Footwork: Kobe -not sure how to rate Kobe's footwork to Bird's, I will say that Bird happened to ALWAYS be in the right place at the right time, maybe he wasn't as light on his feet in traffic as Kobe, but he got where he needed to with what seemed like less movement
Speed: Kobe -Kobe easily
Defense: Kobe -Kobe ever so slightly, Bird was a deceptive defender, don't let the media fool you into thinking Kobe is an all world all time defender, he just isn't...good not great
Strength: Bird -farm strength man, Bird would crush Kobe in any strength measure
Athleticism: Kobe -Kobe easily
Midrange shooting: Bird -No contest here
3 point shooting: Bird -No contest here, he just never shot as many as Kobe
Post play: Bird -far bigger and more creative in the post
Killer instinct: Bird -the only player that Magic feared in the clutch...Bird
Slashing: Kobe
Overall skills: Bird -most skilled player outside of maybe MJ, and that's debateable
Off-hand: Bird -Bird would play entire games with his off hand just for fun, have you not read the stories about him?
Free throw Shooting: Bird -easily
Rebounding: Bird -easily


Thus Bird is the more dominant player. He was more well rounded as well and the smartest player I've ever seen play the game.

[KB42PAH]

Bryant is the most versatile jumpshooter ever.

1) master of the pull up jumpshot (1 dribble, 2 dribble , jumpstop)
2) Can shoot going any direction (fading, going left, going right, leaning forward)
3) can alter the arc of his shot easily and still have good results
4) unlimited range from 32 feet and in.
5) Great at catch and shoot.

Same cannot be said of Larry Bird.

Alot of shoters in NBA need screens, need to run around like a hamster all day to get open shots, kobe dominates the game with his jumpshot as the biggest scoring threat. He sees way more defensive coverage than do Kapono, Nash, Korver and other shooters who just take wide open shots of kick outs.

When you consider all this, Kobe is the best jumpshooter in the game EASILY and arguably all time because of his overall shooting versatility.

I would say the best midrange shooters in history are:

Kobe Bryant, Michael Jordan, Sam Cassell, and Kevin Garnett.

[copper]

Bryant is the most versatile jumpshooter ever.

1) master of the pull up jumpshot (1 dribble, 2 dribble , jumpstop)
2) Can shoot going any direction (fading, going left, going right, leaning forward)
3) can alter the arc of his shot easily and still have good results
4) unlimited range from 32 feet and in.
5) Great at catch and shoot.

Same cannot be said of Larry Bird.

Alot of shoters in NBA need screens, need to run around like a hamster all day to get open shots, kobe dominates the game with his jumpshot as the biggest scoring threat. He sees way more defensive coverage than do Kapono, Nash, Korver and other shooters who just take wide open shots of kick outs.

When you consider all this, Kobe is the best jumpshooter in the game EASILY and arguably all time because of his overall shooting versatility.

I would say the best midrange shooters in history are:

Kobe Bryant, Michael Jordan, Sam Cassell, and Kevin Garnett.
You are comparing Kobe to kapono, Nash and Korver? and trying to say Hes better than Bird???:roll:

Do yourself a favor and watch some 80s celtic basketball...then come back to debate

[KB42PAH]

You are comparing Kobe to kapono, Nash and Korver? and trying to say Hes better than Bird???:roll:

Do yourself a favor and watch some 80s celtic basketball...then come back to debate


80s = a joke.

slow white guys, standstill defense.

Magic+bird = 0 all nba defesnive teams

overrated

a duo of whte guys mchale/bird , lmao

Jr Smith in 80s = HOF

[west]

why you guys take KB42PAH seriously???
here is the video he made
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4kYBeNQdSCc

[KB42PAH]

why you guys take KB42PAH seriously???
here is the video he made
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4kYBeNQdSCc


330,000 views
Featured on ESPN Truehoop Blog and LA times blog

Its a great educational video and you can't refute anything about it, your just a little fruitcake.

[Godfather]

330,000 views
Featured on ESPN Truehoop Blog and LA times blog

Its a great educational video and you can't refute anything about it, your just a little fruitcake.

Bull ****. If they featured it they did so to make fun of your raspy voice (get that checked) or make fun of your flawed logic...

[KB42PAH]

Bull ****. If they featured it they did so to make fun of your raspy voice (get that checked) or make fun of your flawed logic...


Me = IQ

flawed logic? Lmao

I had a cold - I am helping educate the masses.

Media = has brainwashed the youth, telling them 80s was golden age and overrating older players.

[Godfather]

Me = IQ

flawed logic? Lmao

I had a cold - I am helping educate the masses.

Media = has brainwashed the youth, telling them 80s was golden age and overrating older players.

I watched the 80's ***** (something that can't be said about you), and it is hands down had more competition then right now...

And "me = IQ" :wtf: is that supposed to mean? Do you realize you basically just called yourself a calculation?

I wouldn't expect any less.

[AItheAnswer3]

Me = IQ

flawed logic? Lmao

I had a cold - I am helping educate the masses.

Media = has brainwashed the youth, telling them 80s was golden age and overrating older players.

Put the pipe down.

[Godfather]

Put the pipe down.

More like he should get his mouth off Kobe's ****.

[Scott Pippen]

80s = a joke.

slow white guys, standstill defense.

Magic+bird = 0 all nba defesnive teams

overrated

a duo of whte guys mchale/bird , lmao

Jr Smith in 80s = HOF:confusedshrug:

[nbastatus]

Larry Bird. doode a legend.

[KB42PAH]

More like he should get his mouth off Kobe's ****.


Its not about Kobe, plaayers today>>>trash from weak 50-80s

Rasheed, Joe Johnson>>>>bird, mchale.
Vince> Dominique
Kobe, Wade, Lebron >>>anyone other than arguably jordan although I consider kobe>jordan
KG, Duncan>any bigmen other than kareem
Cp3, Deron, Nash, Billups

every posiition today >>> those weak trash ones

[lefthook00]

Larry Bird is one of the greatest to ever do it, certainly greater than Kobe is at this moment, but lets get real, this isn't an NBA game we're talking about. Kobe abuses Bird in a 1v1 game.

[KB42PAH]

Larry Bird and Bill Russell - 2 most overrated players in NBA history.

Bill Russell = Ben wallace, one dimensional defensivei player, weak , would get thrown around like a ***** in todays game.

Larry Bird = Kieth van Horn+Great passing+better rebounding, 0 nba defensive teams. Slow, poor shooting mechanics, awkward.

[AItheAnswer3]

I'm convinced this guy is BULLS.

[KB42PAH]

I'm convinced this guy is BULLS.

Im convinced your favorite player is a cancerous volume shooter 40% chucker who makes teams worse and overdribbles.

[1~Gibson~1]

Its not about Kobe, plaayers today>>>trash from weak 50-80s

Rasheed, Joe Johnson>>>>bird, mchale.
Vince> Dominique
Kobe, Wade, Lebron >>>anyone other than arguably jordan although I consider kobe>jordan
KG, Duncan>any bigmen other than kareem
Cp3, Deron, Nash, Billups

every posiition today >>> those weak trash oneshttp://i166.photobucket.com/albums/u118/bigev_bucket/dumbass-1.jpg

[Scott Pippen]

I'm convinced this guy is BULLS.
No way. At least BULLS acknowledges the 1980s as a great decade.:applause:

[west]

No way. At least BULLS acknowledges the 1980s as a great decade.:applause:
Seriously,who is BULLS,i always heard his legacy

[KB42PAH]

No way. At least BULLS acknowledges the 1980s as a great decade.:applause:
Facts:

2000-present = undisputed best talent pool
2001-2004 = only era in history where BOTH zone and hand-checking were legal.

You are all sheep brainwahsed by the media seeing 10 minute black and white snippets of filim and game footage. 80s = pathetic. 1987 finals, go watch it. 2 of "best teams of all time." LMAO slow standstil defense, soft , weak , god its sucks.

God the media is so powerful on feeble minds like guys. Same guys who rallied behind bush to invade foreign countries on lies and what not .Shame. You are not a thinker, your an image pianted by the media. You believe what they have instilled in you.

Outside of celtics, lakers , knicks, noone, complete trash. Biggest joke ever.

[bleedinpurpleTwo]

Larry Bird and Bill Russell - 2 most overrated players in NBA history.

Bill Russell = Ben wallace, one dimensional defensivei player, weak , would get thrown around like a ***** in todays game.

Larry Bird = Kieth van Horn+Great passing+better rebounding, 0 nba defensive teams. Slow, poor shooting mechanics, awkward.

wow. you have taken stupidity to levels unseen. congrats.

[Scott Pippen]

Seriously,who is BULLS,i always heard his legacy
In the summer of 2007, he joined insidehoops with the screenname "BULLS", because it looked as if Kobe was going to be traded to Chicago. When it didn't happen, he began and still continues to trash the "core" and the "core fans". Also he trashes any player before 1980 (except Wilt Chamberlain). This guy KB42Pah seems to trash any player before 1995 or so.:applause:

[AItheAnswer3]

Im convinced your favorite player is a cancerous volume shooter 40% chucker who makes teams worse and overdribbles.
Nice comeback.

[KB42PAH]

In the summer of 2007, he joined insidehoops with the screenname "BULLS", because it looked as if Kobe was going to be traded to Chicago. When it didn't happen, he began and still continues to trash the "core" and the "core fans". Also he trashes any player before 1980 (except Wilt Chamberlain). This guy KB42Pah seems to trash any player before 1995 or so.:applause:


Stats before 1991 are inflated, and stats after 2001 can't be compared with stats prior. DIffernet rules - new defense allowed that was banned.

Rodman>>>>Bill Russell by far.
Rodman = 18 rpg in relatively modern era, unbelievable.

[KB42PAH]

Nice comeback.

Iverson is the best player his height ever, and the best crossver ever, unbelievable what he does. But what I said is true to some extent.

[Scott Pippen]

Facts:

2000-present = undisputed best talent pool
2001-2004 = only era in history where BOTH zone and hand-checking were legal.

You are all sheep brainwahsed by the media seeing 10 minute black and white snippets of filim and game footage. 80s = pathetic. 1987 finals, go watch it. 2 of "best teams of all time." LMAO slow standstil defense, soft , weak , god its sucks.

God the media is so powerful on feeble minds like guys. Same guys who rallied behind bush to invade foreign countries on lies and what not .Shame. You are not a thinker, your an image pianted by the media. You believe what they have instilled in you.

Outside of celtics, lakers , knicks, noone, complete trash. Biggest joke ever.

I hate the media. I have actually seen the late 1980s and it was not in black/white. If you listen to media you will believe that "Kobe is the GOAT." -Mark Jackson, Greg Anthony, Jemele Hill, John Salley, Elie Seckback, and AM 570 KLAC.


Or you will believe that "Chris Paul is the GOAT PG." - Greg Anthony

Or you willl believe that "Nowitzki, Pierce are > Larry Bird." - Mark Jackson

I believe what I have watched over the years. I think you believe the portrayed media image of Kobe and use that. What ever happened to your thread from 1 month ago "Kobe has officially lost his competitive drive." That was after a bad shooting night. I could call you fair weather fan but I do not want to make assumption.:applause:

[KB42PAH]

Kobe had no drive in November at all, now hes preforming at a higher level.

Right now his jumper is so automatic, he could average 38 ppg in this league right now easily, but he is conserving and doesnt' need to do it.


Last 3 games:

32.7 ppg, 57% FG, 50% 3PT, 92% FT in 33 MPG

he stared 20 games in with 25% 3pt now hes back up to 34.0 , his career average. He has really picked it up as he usually dos from Dec-feb. Expect him to finish with 29 ppg, on 48% FG, 36% 3PT, 87% FT and leading the Lakers to a 68-14 record .

[nnn123]

Larry Bird and Bill Russell - 2 most overrated players in NBA history.

Bill Russell = Ben wallace, one dimensional defensivei player, weak , would get thrown around like a ***** in todays game.

Larry Bird = Kieth van Horn+Great passing+better rebounding, 0 nba defensive teams. Slow, poor shooting mechanics, awkward.

Wrong, Bird has 3 defensive second-team awards, i believe. And everything else you said was pretty mindboggling also but whatever.

[KB42PAH]

Wrong, Bird has 3 defensive second-team awards, i believe. And everything else you said was pretty mindboggling also but whatever.

0 1st team

kobe = 7 1st team

[Hammertime]

So, there's absolutely no mods on this board or what?

I get banned for an in-depth explanation of a medical condition, yet this is ok?

[ACCBaller1403]

0 1st team

kobe = 7 1st team

2 based off reality, 5 based off his name alone.

Kobe has less competition in the SG defensive field than Bird had in the F defensive field as well. Kobe is a manufactured defensive star created by the media. He's good, but not a legendary defensive player like they'd like you to believe. When Arenas, an overrated chucker as most of the board calls him, can drop 60 on the Lakers, much of it with Kobe directly guarding him in the 4th and overtime, it's hard to believe that a real 7 time all nba defender would let that happen.

[KB42PAH]

2 based off reality, 5 based off his name alone.

Kobe has less competition in the SG defensive field than Bird had in the F defensive field as well. Kobe is a manufactured defensive star created by the media. He's good, but not a legendary defensive player like they'd like you to believe. When Arenas, an overrated chucker as most of the board calls him, can drop 60 on the Lakers, much of it with Kobe directly guarding him in the 4th and overtime, it's hard to believe that a real 7 time all nba defender would let that happen.


Don't even go into name BS.

Bird = 3 consecutive MVPs because he as white in weak era.

Kobe+Shaq = 2 most dominant players ever = 2 MVPS

Larry bird: "The fact that Kobe hasn't won an MVP makes me want to throw mine away." 2008

LMAO!

[ACCBaller1403]

Don't even go into name BS.

Bird = 3 consecutive MVPs because he as white in weak era.

Kobe+Shaq = 2 most dominant players ever = 2 MVPS

Larry bird: "The fact that Kobe hasn't won an MVP makes me want to throw mine away." 2008

LMAO!

Why do you always feel the need to mention when someone is white and then degrade them? Is that what this really is? You just hate white people?

Idiot.

[KB42PAH]

Why do you always feel the need to mention when someone is white and then degrade them? Is that what this really is? You just hate white people?

Idiot.


Black athletes have a higher ratio of fast to slow twitch muscle fibers. White American athletes (non-euros) can't compete at elite level in today's nba game. (morrison, reddick, etc)

[Da_Realist]

So, there's absolutely no mods on this board or what?

I get banned for an in-depth explanation of a medical condition, yet this is ok?

:oldlol: That's funny as hell. :oldlol:

I'm not laughing at whatever your condition was or that you were banned, it was funny the way you said it.

[AllenIverson3]

Black athletes have a higher ratio of fast to slow twitch muscle fibers. White American athletes (non-euros) can't compete at elite level in today's nba game. (morrison, reddick, etc)

:oldlol: :oldlol: I cant believe u just mentioned them...Why dont u mention Jason Kidd Steven Nash Dirk Nowitzki Pau Gasol etc....? You can only mention white players who suck? I can name u more black players who sucks more than white players....:hammerhead: GTFOH

[AllenIverson3]

Its not about Kobe, plaayers today>>>trash from weak 50-80s

Rasheed, Joe Johnson>>>>bird, mchale.
Vince> Dominique
Kobe, Wade, Lebron >>>anyone other than arguably jordan although I consider kobe>jordan
KG, Duncan>any bigmen other than kareem
Cp3, Deron, Nash, Billups

every posiition today >>> those weak trash ones
dude just stop ****in' talkin'...Your a ****in' Laker and Bryant stan and of course thats what Laker stans say Kobe>>>>>>Jordan...How many finals mvps does Bryant have?

[Godfather]

Black athletes have a higher ratio of fast to slow twitch muscle fibers. White American athletes (non-euros) can't compete at elite level in today's nba game. (morrison, reddick, etc)

Blatant racism and complete bull ****...

And what are Euro's not white???

Last time I checked Larry competed and dominated in the NBA in his game...(were there no African American athletes in his "weak" era?)

[AllenIverson3]

Bryant is the most versatile jumpshooter ever.

1) master of the pull up jumpshot (1 dribble, 2 dribble , jumpstop)
2) Can shoot going any direction (fading, going left, going right, leaning forward)
3) can alter the arc of his shot easily and still have good results
4) unlimited range from 32 feet and in.
5) Great at catch and shoot.

Same cannot be said of Larry Bird.

Alot of shoters in NBA need screens, need to run around like a hamster all day to get open shots, kobe dominates the game with his jumpshot as the biggest scoring threat. He sees way more defensive coverage than do Kapono, Nash, Korver and other shooters who just take wide open shots of kick outs.

When you consider all this, Kobe is the best jumpshooter in the game EASILY and arguably all time because of his overall shooting versatility.

I would say the best midrange shooters in history are:

Kobe Bryant, Michael Jordan, Sam Cassell, and Kevin Garnett.

so ur sayin' they're better than Ray Allen Peja Stojakovic Allan Houston and Reggie Miller? Chris Benoit urself

[AllenIverson3]

Me = IQ

flawed logic? Lmao

I had a cold - I am helping educate the masses.

Media = has brainwashed the youth, telling them 80s was golden age and overrating older players.

:wtf: wow kid ur ****in' retarded...:oldlol: :oldlol: :oldlol:

[Hammertime]

:oldlol: That's funny as hell. :oldlol:

I'm not laughing at whatever your condition was or that you were banned, it was funny the way you said it.

It wasn't my condition. :lol

It was Agent Zero's and the dude's from the medical journal I cited.

[KB42PAH]

Blatant racism and complete bull ****...




http://run-down.com/guests/je_black_athletes_p2.php

http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Why_is_the_muscle_structure_of_African_Americans_d ifferent_from_other_races

http://www.jonentine.com/reviews/Daily_Express_9_8_2000.htm

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qa3659/is_200012/ai_n8911739

Go read , you'll learn something .

[LAShow24]

This damn KB42PAH guy needs to be banned forever. He is nothing but a damn troll.

[Da_Realist]

Larry Bird = Kieth van Horn+Great passing+better rebounding, 0 nba defensive teams. Slow, poor shooting mechanics, awkward.

Flashback article from 1986 (http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/basketball/nba/1998/bird/flashbacks/1986flash.html)

"All I know is that people tend to forget how great the older players were," says Bird. "It'll happen that way with me, too."

[LAShow24]

It's obvious that Bird is better. 3 mvp's, 2 finals mvp's and even led in PER.

[Sir Charles]

Oh My God...Again? :rolleyes: Kobe is hardly a Top 20-25 Player of All Time Bird a Top 5-10 Player of All-Time.

This is an insulting comparison

Scoring: Bird! Way More Efficient Scorer FG% and Could Score More Ways (not to mention he did not recieve any help by NBA Rule Changes on Handchecking to help Perimter Jordan Wanabee Ball Hog Slashers= Kobe-Iverson`s).

If Bird played took the amounts of Shot attempts Kobe gets he would have averaged over 30 PPG for his career. Bird happened to be more of a Team Player than Kobe so he doesn`t need to Score all The Time.

Put Bird with Kareem-Worthy, Scott, McAdoo etc and you get 10 Championships

Put Bird with Shaq the same result...

Bird could make others greater without even scoring...

Post Game: Bird!. Its not even a contest. Bird was guarded by PFs ranging fron Antoine Carr, Horace Grant, Dennis Rodman, Rick Mahorn etc to Quicker Athletic Faster SF-SGs like Pippen, Dr J, Tom Chambers, Clyde Drexler`ss, James Worthy etc nothing helped them.

Shooting: 3-Point%, FG%, FT% etc Bird. .

Driving and Dribbling: Kobe.. but....he is obviously a SG...best SG since Jordan in many aspects....

Rebounding: Bird! Not even Close Bird could rebound agains the Best SFs and PFs and still get 10 RPG many times over that. Bird happens to have one of the Greatest Boxing out Skills and Jump Timing of All Time. He was much like Barkley in terms of both those skills (non existant today pretty much). .

His Timing even helped him Win Tip against Hakeem Olajuwon. "He, Athletic Enough"?

***You will see in the following vids:

1 on 1 Defense: Kobe....although Bird was not as Bad as most people think. Remember Bird also played in a time where the SF position was at its finest (80s) and most PFs and SFs had REAL OFFENSIVE FUNDAMENTALS: DR J, Bernard King, Alex English, James Worthy, Tom Chambers, Adrian Dantley, Scottie Pippen, Chris Mullin etc you name it...:confusedshrug:

Team Defense: Bird! by far....His intuition for steals and court awarness for shuttin down and forcing turnovers is unrivaled. :confusedshrug: .

Clutchness: Both Clutch as Hell. The difference is Bird was clutch in every aspect of the game not just shooting the last second shot. So even regarding that...I`d take Bird. :confusedshrug:

B-Ball IQ: Bird by Miles....

Temperament: Bird by Miles....

Will to Win/Hustle: Bird by Miles....

Strength: Bird could play SG-SF and PF and still get 25 plus, 10-12 RPG, 5-7 APG on any given night. Bird is much...way much stronger than most people think. Thick Boned Country Boy...

Athleticism (Speed, Leaping Ability, Potence): Kobe...

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

To End this Idiotic Topic

View and Shut Your Mouths.....1986 FINALS: ROCKETS VS CELTICS

GAME 1: "You believe Kobe can reach this level of All Around Skill"? :rolleyes:

http://es.youtube.com/watch?v=18T3o9YU6_Y&feature=PlayList&p=7F95FC33E153D2BC&index=0

GAME 2: "Listen to the Shouting Hums by Bird...Trash Talking on Hakeem in Every Fake :roll: Making him Know It" :roll:

http://es.youtube.com/watch?index=1&feature=PlayList&p=7F95FC33E153D2BC&v=Xib0rdFJWxg

GAME 3: "Left Handed Shots Everywhere..."

http://es.youtube.com/watch?v=k171sp4cRsE&feature=PlayList&p=7F95FC33E153D2BC&index=2

GAME 4: "SHOOTING EXIBITION 1st QUARTER...BTW...Bird plays SG in the 2nd QUARTER :roll: "

http://es.youtube.com/watch?v=Fao1_63DqKY&feature=PlayList&p=7F95FC33E153D2BC&index=3

GAME 5:"Quiet Game by Bird, Bad Game still Close to a Triple Double than Kobe`s Usual Averages"

http://es.youtube.com/watch?v=Y5mSXat6fbQ&feature=PlayList&p=7F95FC33E153D2BC&index=4


GAME 6:"Larry Bird Taking the Whole Rockets Team to School in Every Aspect of the Game: Shooting, Post Game, Rebounding, Offensive Rebounding, Passing, Stealing, Blocks, Court Savy, Fakes and Spins, Hustle, Leadership etc "


***MINUTES: 3.31-3.40: Larry Bird wins Tip Against unathletic prime Hakeem Olajuwon. SEE WHY BIRD WAS A GREAT REBOUNDER? :pimp:

DONT EVER COMPRE Kuby Baby Jordan TO LARRY LEGEND :banghead:

[RAPSCANWIN]

I actually remember Bird well, and became a fan of Basketball because of the Lakers/Celtics rivalry.


Its a tough comparison because of the different positions. But without hesitation I would rank Bird above Kobe. And I fear Kobe more then anyone when playing the Raps.

But overall in every aspect and in the intangilbles of basketball, as well as accomplishments, Bird > Kobe.

[gpfanz]

Kobe is a better dunker then Bird :bowdown:

[Jacks3]

Bird>Kobe, but :oldlol: at the people acting like this is some insult to Bird.:roll:

[andgar923]

Oh My God...Again? :rolleyes: Kobe is hardly a Top 20-25 Player of All Time Bird a Top 5-10 Player of All-Time.

This is an insulting comparison

Scoring: Bird! Way More Efficient Scorer FG% and Could Score More Ways (not to mention he did not recieve any help by NBA Rule Changes on Handchecking to help Perimter Jordan Wanabee Ball Hog Slashers= Kobe-Iverson`s).

If Bird played took the amounts of Shot attempts Kobe gets he would have averaged over 30 PPG for his career. Bird happened to be more of a Team Player than Kobe so he doesn`t need to Score all The Time.

Put Bird with Kareem-Worthy, Scott, McAdoo etc and you get 10 Championships

Put Bird with Shaq the same result...

Bird could make others greater without even scoring...

Post Game: Bird!. Its not even a contest. Bird was guarded by PFs ranging fron Antoine Carr, Horace Grant, Dennis Rodman, Rick Mahorn etc to Quicker Athletic Faster SF-SGs like Pippen, Dr J, Tom Chambers, Clyde Drexler`ss, James Worthy etc nothing helped them.

Shooting: 3-Point%, FG%, FT% etc Bird. .

Driving and Dribbling: Kobe.. but....he is obviously a SG...best SG since Jordan in many aspects....

Rebounding: Bird! Not even Close Bird could rebound agains the Best SFs and PFs and still get 10 RPG many times over that. Bird happens to have one of the Greatest Boxing out Skills and Jump Timing of All Time. He was much like Barkley in terms of both those skills (non existant today pretty much). .

His Timing even helped him Win Tip against Hakeem Olajuwon. "He, Athletic Enough"?

***You will see in the following vids:

1 on 1 Defense: Kobe....although Bird was not as Bad as most people think. Remember Bird also played in a time where the SF position was at its finest (80s) and most PFs and SFs had REAL OFFENSIVE FUNDAMENTALS: DR J, Bernard King, Alex English, James Worthy, Tom Chambers, Adrian Dantley, Scottie Pippen, Chris Mullin etc you name it...:confusedshrug:

Team Defense: Bird! by far....His intuition for steals and court awarness for shuttin down and forcing turnovers is unrivaled. :confusedshrug: .

Clutchness: Both Clutch as Hell. The difference is Bird was clutch in every aspect of the game not just shooting the last second shot. So even regarding that...I`d take Bird. :confusedshrug:

B-Ball IQ: Bird by Miles....

Temperament: Bird by Miles....

Will to Win/Hustle: Bird by Miles....

Strength: Bird could play SG-SF and PF and still get 25 plus, 10-12 RPG, 5-7 APG on any given night. Bird is much...way much stronger than most people think. Thick Boned Country Boy...

Athleticism (Speed, Leaping Ability, Potence): Kobe...

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

To End this Idiotic Topic

View and Shut Your Mouths.....1986 FINALS: ROCKETS VS CELTICS

GAME 1: "You believe Kobe can reach this level of All Around Skill"? :rolleyes:

http://es.youtube.com/watch?v=18T3o9YU6_Y&feature=PlayList&p=7F95FC33E153D2BC&index=0

GAME 2: "Listen to the Shouting Hums by Bird...Trash Talking on Hakeem in Every Fake :roll: Making him Know It" :roll:

http://es.youtube.com/watch?index=1&feature=PlayList&p=7F95FC33E153D2BC&v=Xib0rdFJWxg

GAME 3: "Left Handed Shots Everywhere..."

http://es.youtube.com/watch?v=k171sp4cRsE&feature=PlayList&p=7F95FC33E153D2BC&index=2

GAME 4: "SHOOTING EXIBITION 1st QUARTER...BTW...Bird plays SG in the 2nd QUARTER :roll: "

http://es.youtube.com/watch?v=Fao1_63DqKY&feature=PlayList&p=7F95FC33E153D2BC&index=3

GAME 5:"Quiet Game by Bird, Bad Game still Close to a Triple Double than Kobe`s Usual Averages"

http://es.youtube.com/watch?v=Y5mSXat6fbQ&feature=PlayList&p=7F95FC33E153D2BC&index=4


GAME 6:"Larry Bird Taking the Whole Rockets Team to School in Every Aspect of the Game: Shooting, Post Game, Rebounding, Offensive Rebounding, Passing, Stealing, Blocks, Court Savy, Fakes and Spins, Hustle, Leadership etc "


***MINUTES: 3.31-3.40: Larry Bird wins Tip Against unathletic prime Hakeem Olajuwon. SEE WHY BIRD WAS A GREAT REBOUNDER? :pimp:

DONT EVER COMPRE Kuby Baby Jordan TO LARRY LEGEND :banghead:

Can't wait to see how they attempt to spin this one.

Great post

[Jacks3]

Kobe is a better scorer and 10 times the defender.
As a individual player, Kobe>bird.:pimp:

[west]

Oh My God...Again? :rolleyes: Kobe is hardly a Top 20-25 Player of All Time Bird a Top 5-10 Player of All-Time.

This is an insulting comparison

Scoring: Bird! Way More Efficient Scorer FG% and Could Score More Ways (not to mention he did not recieve any help by NBA Rule Changes on Handchecking to help Perimter Jordan Wanabee Ball Hog Slashers= Kobe-Iverson`s).

If Bird played took the amounts of Shot attempts Kobe gets he would have averaged over 30 PPG for his career. Bird happened to be more of a Team Player than Kobe so he doesn`t need to Score all The Time.

Put Bird with Kareem-Worthy, Scott, McAdoo etc and you get 10 Championships

Put Bird with Shaq the same result...

Bird could make others greater without even scoring...

Post Game: Bird!. Its not even a contest. Bird was guarded by PFs ranging fron Antoine Carr, Horace Grant, Dennis Rodman, Rick Mahorn etc to Quicker Athletic Faster SF-SGs like Pippen, Dr J, Tom Chambers, Clyde Drexler`ss, James Worthy etc nothing helped them.

Shooting: 3-Point%, FG%, FT% etc Bird. .

Driving and Dribbling: Kobe.. but....he is obviously a SG...best SG since Jordan in many aspects....

Rebounding: Bird! Not even Close Bird could rebound agains the Best SFs and PFs and still get 10 RPG many times over that. Bird happens to have one of the Greatest Boxing out Skills and Jump Timing of All Time. He was much like Barkley in terms of both those skills (non existant today pretty much). .

His Timing even helped him Win Tip against Hakeem Olajuwon. "He, Athletic Enough"?

***You will see in the following vids:

1 on 1 Defense: Kobe....although Bird was not as Bad as most people think. Remember Bird also played in a time where the SF position was at its finest (80s) and most PFs and SFs had REAL OFFENSIVE FUNDAMENTALS: DR J, Bernard King, Alex English, James Worthy, Tom Chambers, Adrian Dantley, Scottie Pippen, Chris Mullin etc you name it...:confusedshrug:

Team Defense: Bird! by far....His intuition for steals and court awarness for shuttin down and forcing turnovers is unrivaled. :confusedshrug: .

Clutchness: Both Clutch as Hell. The difference is Bird was clutch in every aspect of the game not just shooting the last second shot. So even regarding that...I`d take Bird. :confusedshrug:

B-Ball IQ: Bird by Miles....

Temperament: Bird by Miles....

Will to Win/Hustle: Bird by Miles....

Strength: Bird could play SG-SF and PF and still get 25 plus, 10-12 RPG, 5-7 APG on any given night. Bird is much...way much stronger than most people think. Thick Boned Country Boy...

Athleticism (Speed, Leaping Ability, Potence): Kobe...

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

To End this Idiotic Topic

View and Shut Your Mouths.....1986 FINALS: ROCKETS VS CELTICS

GAME 1: "You believe Kobe can reach this level of All Around Skill"? :rolleyes:

http://es.youtube.com/watch?v=18T3o9YU6_Y&feature=PlayList&p=7F95FC33E153D2BC&index=0

GAME 2: "Listen to the Shouting Hums by Bird...Trash Talking on Hakeem in Every Fake :roll: Making him Know It" :roll:

http://es.youtube.com/watch?index=1&feature=PlayList&p=7F95FC33E153D2BC&v=Xib0rdFJWxg

GAME 3: "Left Handed Shots Everywhere..."

http://es.youtube.com/watch?v=k171sp4cRsE&feature=PlayList&p=7F95FC33E153D2BC&index=2

GAME 4: "SHOOTING EXIBITION 1st QUARTER...BTW...Bird plays SG in the 2nd QUARTER :roll: "

http://es.youtube.com/watch?v=Fao1_63DqKY&feature=PlayList&p=7F95FC33E153D2BC&index=3

GAME 5:"Quiet Game by Bird, Bad Game still Close to a Triple Double than Kobe`s Usual Averages"

http://es.youtube.com/watch?v=Y5mSXat6fbQ&feature=PlayList&p=7F95FC33E153D2BC&index=4


GAME 6:"Larry Bird Taking the Whole Rockets Team to School in Every Aspect of the Game: Shooting, Post Game, Rebounding, Offensive Rebounding, Passing, Stealing, Blocks, Court Savy, Fakes and Spins, Hustle, Leadership etc "


***MINUTES: 3.31-3.40: Larry Bird wins Tip Against unathletic prime Hakeem Olajuwon. SEE WHY BIRD WAS A GREAT REBOUNDER? :pimp:

DONT EVER COMPRE Kuby Baby Jordan TO LARRY LEGEND :banghead:
there you go

[lolwut]

you put bird's slow set shooting ass in today's NBA and he couldn't make a practice squad. Kobe is exponentially better than Larry Bird.

[OldSchoolBBall]

you put bird's slow set shooting ass in today's NBA and he couldn't make a practice squad. Kobe is exponentially better than Larry Bird.

lolwut :oldlol:

Bird's actual shot was the exact same motion as his shot fakes, which were deadly. That, along with his high release almost behin his head and his size, made his shot nearly impossible to block.

[lolwut]

lolwut :oldlol:

Bird's actual shot was the exact same motion as his shot fakes, which were deadly. That, along with his high release almost behin his head and his size, made his shot nearly impossible to block.


He had a spectacular set shot, and he had a good ball fake. I agree.

He played in a MUCH slower and MUCH less athletic period in the NBA. You can talk until you're blue in the face about intangibles and toughness, but the fact of the matter is today's players are much faster, much stronger, much quicker, and much more athletic getting to the rim. His shoulder-cocked set shot would get sent back from where it came regularly today, and he would get ran up and down the court every night on defense.

[lolwut]

Its not about Kobe, plaayers today>>>trash from weak 50-80s

Rasheed, Joe Johnson>>>>bird, mchale.
Vince> Dominique
Kobe, Wade, Lebron >>>anyone other than arguably jordan although I consider kobe>jordan
KG, Duncan>any bigmen other than kareem
Cp3, Deron, Nash, Billups

every posiition today >>> those weak trash ones


Very. Very. True.

[OldSchoolBBall]

He had a spectacular set shot, and he had a good ball fake. I agree.

He played in a MUCH slower and MUCH less athletic period in the NBA. You can talk until you're blue in the face about intangibles and toughness, but the fact of the matter is today's players are much faster, much stronger, much quicker, and much more athletic getting to the rim. His shoulder-cocked set shot would get sent back from where it came regularly today, and he would get ran up and down the court every night on defense.

Bird torched Rodman, Worthy, Wilkins, Drexler, Kersey, Pippen....sorry, but those guys are more than athletic enough. Bird was unstoppable.

LOL @ the naivete in thinking that Bird's shot would be routinely blocked today. Simply zero understanding of the game.

[lolwut]

Bird torched Rodman, Worthy, Wilkins, Drexler, Kersey, Pippen....sorry, but those guys are more than athletic enough. Bird was unstoppable.

LOL @ the naivete in thinking that Bird's shot would be routinely blocked today. Simply zero understanding of the game.


by torch you mean hit some jumpers, and none of those players aside from Rodman, and Pippen were exceptional defenders...and Bird did not regularly torch Pippen and Rodman...not at all.

[Dasher]

Against Pip Bird averaged 26ppg,8rpg,6apg

This is getting silly. Kobe is not in Bird's class. He is not a top 20 player let alone top ten.

[lolwut]

Against Pip Bird averaged 26ppg,8rpg,6apg

This is getting silly. Kobe is not in Bird's class. He is not a top 20 player let alone top ten.


http://www.basketball-reference.com/fc/pgl.cgi?player=birdla01&year=1991

his best performances were Pippen's rookie and sophomore campaigns. Where he certainly didn't spend a lot of time guarding the best player on the floor each night.

[Dasher]

http://www.basketball-reference.com/fc/pgl.cgi?player=birdla01&year=1991

his best performances were Pippen's rookie and sophomore campaigns. Where he certainly didn't spend a lot of time guarding the best player on the floor each night.Worst Bird performances were post back surgery. I can make excuses too. Cats like to skip over the fact that Bird was barely able to move at the end of his career and was still torching young cats.

[OldSchoolBBall]

by torch you mean hit some jumpers, and none of those players aside from Rodman, and Pippen were exceptional defenders...and Bird did not regularly torch Pippen and Rodman...not at all.

Who are the exceptional defenders today that are going to "routinely block Bird's shot"? I assumed you were saying that because you feel players today are more athletic; all of the guys I named were very athletic and couldn't do much against Bird.

Add Michael Cooper to the above list as well.

[OldSchoolBBall]

Worst Bird performances were post back surgery. I can make excuses too. Cats like to skip over the fact that Bird was barely able to move at the end of his career and was still torching young cats.

Seriously. This dude is crazy. At age 35, after numerous back surgeries and barely able to walk, Bird was averaging 20/10/7/47%. This was in a league one year before Shaq arrived, right in the middle of Jordan's prime.

To suggest that Bird would get dominated today is rank stupidity.

[beau_boy04]

Kobe is not even a top 20 all-time list let alone a top 10. In fact, Bird is considered a top 3 all-time by over 60% of the population. Many consider him the best player ever.

Intangibles = Bird
IQ = Bird
Shooting (close,midrange, long) = Bird
Rebounding = Bird
Passing = Bird
Cluth = Bird

Clear as water. It doesn't get any better than that.

[Hammertime]

Can any of these Kobe nuthangers post a video of all the Kobe playoffs heroics? We're talking games where he dropped 50+, went shot for shot with a superstar rival, series winning shots, finals heroics...that sort of stuff.