Micheal Jordan Denial

[falcon#5]

Micheal Jordan was one of the greatest players to play the game but people are going to have to face it sooner or later that they're are players just as good as him if not better.

People are in denial and they will never let anyone be better than Micheal jordan people just wont accept it thats how it is.

People ride off other players before they have even compared them to him because they wont let anyone be better seriously think about it.

woRd OUT

[kumquat]

Ricky Davis is already better than him.

[Magic_Johnson]

Magic is better

[kidachi]

Ricky Davis is already better than him.


Kevin Martin too.

[RoseCity07]

This is one of those stupid little kid posters that is waiting for MJ to be in a wheel chair so he can say a guy doing lay up drills is better than Jordan in the present. Stop trying to compare a retired Jordan to a current NBA player that is young. It's stupid and only makes you look dumber than you already are.

[Loki]

Micheal Jordan was one of the greatest players to play the game but people are going to have to face it sooner or later that they're are players just as good as him if not better.

People are in denial and they will never let anyone be better than Micheal jordan people just wont accept it thats how it is.

People ride off other players before they have even compared them to him because they wont let anyone be better seriously think about it.

woRd OUT

When a player who's actually better shows up, people will recognize it. End of discussion.

[Optimus Prime]

Well, of course there are people better than Micheal Jordan...he's probably some no name scrub in the boonies of Wyoming.

Now, MICHAEL JORDAN, is the Greatest Player Of All Time, and it will be hard to surpass a player of his pedigree.

If you're going to troll, at least know how to spell the GOATs name right.


Micheal Jordan was one of the greatest players to play the game but people are going to have to face it sooner or later that they're are players just as good as him if not better.

People are in denial and they will never let anyone be better than Micheal jordan people just wont accept it thats how it is.

People ride off other players before they have even compared them to him because they wont let anyone be better seriously think about it.

woRd OUT

[kgisbigticket]

Here is a post from a poster named Jordansbulls on another site and he is very knowledgeable. I am no Jordan fan, but this guy does make great points.

http://www.answers.com/topic/nba-records

The Playoffs is where you make your name and where greatness is defined. But MJ was more consistent and holds records as well such as:

Highest PPG Average: 30.12
Most seasons leading league in Points: 11
Most scoring titles: 10
Highest PER Efficiency: 27.91

Also, MJ is no doubt the greatest playoff performer and IMO he was the greatest Road Player Ever. Most of his greatest feats happened on the road.

As far as the playoffs go, here are a few things that stuck out in my mind:

Playoffs
Most Points Per Game (min. 25 games)
33.4 by Michael Jordan (179 games)

Most Points in a Game
63 by Michael Jordan

Most 50 Point Games
8 by Michael Jordan

Most 40 Point Games
38 by Michael Jordan

Most 30 Point Games
109 by Michael Jordan

Most 20 Point Games
174 by Michael Jordan (he played 179 playoff games and scored under 20 only 5 times)

These players all lost these series with Homecourt advantage which means they were the favorite. If someone was injured like a main star then that factors in, but if not that doesn't factor in the discussion.


[quote]
Wilt Chamberlain (lost in

[artificial]

What is this? Troll week?

[Poseidon]

I've said this once and I'll say it again....

Jordan = right place, right time

He'd just be another great swingman had he played in today's game. Jordan would be grouped wirth Kobe, Wade, Iverson and McGrady (also maybe LeBron).

Also his stats would not be as inflated due to Zone defense, non-hand checking rule and better athletes in his position and in the league.

No more 50 point games againt the Craig Ehlo's or the Danny Ainge's or the Jeff Malone's of the world. He'll now be facing some real, athletic competition.

Also players like Vince Carter, Jason Richardson, Josh Smith and about 10 others would put Jordan's "AIR" moniker to shame with their dunks compared the MJ's generic ones. He can kiss any Slam Dunk title away because he would NEVER win one in today's league.

:oldlol:

[kgisbigticket]

I've said this once and I'll say it again....

Jordan = right place, right time

He'd just be another great swingman had he played in today's game. Jordan would be grouped wirth Kobe, Wade, Iverson and McGrady (also maybe LeBron).

Also his stats would not be as inflated due to Zone defense, non-hand checking rule and better athletes in his position and in the league.

No more 50 point games againt the Craig Ehlo's or the Danny Ainge's or the Jeff Malone's of the world. He'll now be facing some real, athletic competition.

Also players like Vince Carter, Jason Richardson, Josh Smith and about 10 others would put Jordan's "AIR" moniker to shame with their dunks compared the MJ's generic ones. He can kiss any Slam Dunk title away because he would NEVER win one in today's league.

:oldlol:

How many of those guys have ever led in PER?

How many of those guys have a career average of 30 ppg in the season, playoffs and finals?

Thank you!!!

[dorellcookwade]

Antoine Walker > Michael Jordan
In every area, Walker can play every posistion.

[Knoe Itawl]

How many of those guys have ever led in PER?

How many of those guys have a career average of 30 ppg in the season, playoffs and finals?

Thank you!!!

Poseidon is the idiot and joke of the boards, don't bother taking him seriously.

[Knoe Itawl]

Oh, and by the way whenever you run into an idiot like Poseidon yapping about Michael and today's league, just past the below post by kblaze. that way you don't have to waste time on a simpleton.

Jordan in 02 got hurt around the all star break and because he didnt want to quit on the team played through much of it and only put up 16ppg and played just 28 minutes after the break. But before it....

25/6/5.3 and he was getting better. Working into shape. he month just before he got hurt he averaged a rounded off 27/7/5.

Kobe for the year put up a rounded up 25/6/6 and Jordan before he went down put up...25/6/5. jordan slightly up in blocks. Both with 1.48 steals. And Kobe played more minutes. Jordan was at 25/6/5 in under 35 minutes a game. Kobe has not played minutes that low since 1998. Kobe shot better from the field that year. But Jordan was not the Jordan of old. He was old Jordan. He was out there hesitating to dunk because he didnt want to miss.


This "era" **** has gotten totally out of control when people think Michael Jordan would fail to do anything these days. Wade just led a team to a title while being worse than Jordan at literally every single phase of the game. And thats something often said but rarely true. But Jordan in his prime was a better midrange, outside, and in the lane shooter, a better defender in the post and outside, a better passer, rebounder, and really...everything. Well I guess MJ didnt have Wades crossover but a crossover and ball handling arent the same thing. Jordan was better than Wade at getting where he wanted to be. And thats enough ball handling for me.

If Jordan 12-15 years removed from his physical peak in a stage of his life he had to be all skills and could barely even dunk could put up 25/6/5 in a league that had basically every current great player aside from Lebron and Wade how is an equally skilled but far more athletic Jordan going to fail to dominate?

Jordan had comp to equal anyones. Nobody in this league now that Kevin Willis is gone has even played a team the equal of the Showtime Lakers or Birds Celtics. Well no. is cliff still around in NJ? If so...no star has played them. None of these guards have had to beat Dumars and/or Rodman to go into the lane and get knock the **** out by Laimbeer and have them get away with it. Nobody today is going into the lane and running into centers like Hakeem/Drob/Mutombo in his prime/Zo/Ewing and so on.

And Jordan played when despite getting favored by the refs he couldnt get the calls Wade, AI, Bron, and Kobe do. The rules have changed in their favors. NBA allows a zone but teams dont really use it well and teams in the 80s used it too they just got away with it(unless they were playing Pat Riley who loved to point it out to refs when his own team wasnt using one).

You cant even handcheck a guy anymore. Much less all the **** Rodman, Moncrief, Jones, Gerald Wilkins, Starks, Dumars, nance, DJ, and such did to MJ. And the athletic difference between the best modern outside defenders and MJs isnt big. The best man to man defender now is probably Bruce Bowen who is hardly an athletic freak. Hes just determined, with good fundamentals, and allowed to play alllllllmost like 90s defenders could. So there is prince. There was Bobby Jones, Gerald Wilklins, Spider Smith(with his 7'6'' wingspan) and Larry Nance who guarded everyone from 2-5. Nance athletically may have no current better of his build. Closest would be Josh Smith. Nance wasl ike 6'10'' both fast and quick(difference) with hops like few ive ever seen.

There are tough bigmen like Ben Wallace now. No current center is either as athletic or skilled on D as Hakeem and Drob were. Or Ewing for that matter if you use pre injury Ewing. Which bigmen now are better disrupting an offense than Zo was? Or Mutombo?

How many pointguards now are better defenders than Gary Payton was? Or Alvin Robertson? Or Derek Harper? How many swingmen are better defenders than Pippen, Jordan, Rodman(who was a swingman type early and the best 3/4 defender later), Cooper Moncrief, and so on? How many 4s are better defenders than Oakley, Williams, and Mccray? I can think of 2. And Jordan played both.

Is this all D team:

Ben
Bowen
AK
Artest
Kidd
Kobe(they had 6 last year with a tie)

really better than this one from 10 years ago?

Payton
Jordan
Pippen
Rodman
Drob

?

And its not like Jordan played all old guys who dont play now. Or bad comp period. He played Duncan, Shaq, Dirk, Tmac, AI, Kidd, Pierce, Webber, KG and all them. In fact he played 9 of the 11 people currently on the all D team. And 11 of the 15 all NBA players. Not to mention Magic, Bird, Hakeem, Zo, Ewing, Isiah, Drexler, Malone, Stockton, Barkley, Kareem, Mchale, Nique, Grant Hill, Penny, Tim Hardaway, Mitch Richmond, Kemp, LJ, Mullin, KJ, Reggie Miller and more.

Jordan isnt one of those "era" guys. Even if someone thought he was the fact that he played against every great player to enter the NBA in the last 22 years aside from Lebron and Wade should kill that idea. And if anyone still wasnt convinced seeing a 38-39 yearold Jordan on bad knees robbed of his athletic ability and playing just 35 minutes put up 25/6/5 in 2002 should have left no doubt.

Michael Jordan in any setting is Michael Jordan. If he played and dominated any and everyone in his path in a prime including some of the greatest defenders and scorers in basketball history I doubt hed crumble in the face of the mighty shutdown D of Tayshaun Prince and Ron Artest or the amazing offensive talents of Wade and Lebron.

Michael Jordan in his prime dominated the 80s and 90s. MJ after his prime was among the best in the 2000s when healthy. You could drop MJ in his prime into the 2255 NBA and watch him put up 32/6/6 vs 7'3'' shooting guards with Dirk range and KG athletic ability.

Hes Michael Jordan. End of story.

[iamgine]

I'd like to think of MJ as not really better than any other superstar athletically but what he does is catch his teammates on fire.

[Knoe Itawl]

I'd like to think of MJ as not really better than any other superstar athletically but what he does is catch his teammates on fire.

I'd like to think of you as older than 9 but I can't.

[Phenomenon]

When a player who's actually better shows up, people will recognize it. End of discussion.

Yeah because guys like Kareem Abdul Jabbar, Magic Johnson or Wilt Chamberlain don't have a case.

Listen to this advice and take it to heart.
Michael Jordan is overrated by this generation of fans because he's the greatest basketball player in our generation, 3 or 4 other players can easily make a case of being better then him but we all ignore that aspect because we never really seen them play in their prime.

So we just assume he's the greatest, and it just seems so lop-sided because it's mostly this generation that's comparing him to everyone else. I'm positive a different perspective will be presented if say the Baby Boomer generation were posting on this forum, I think they would have a greater insight on who truly was the best player of all-time and I'm pretty sure it will not be so one-sided.

[Knoe Itawl]

Yeah because guys like Kareem Abdul Jabbar, Magic Johnson or Wilt Chamberlain don't have a case.

Listen to this advice and take it to heart.
Michael Jordan is overrated by this generation of fans because he's the greatest basketball player in our generation, 3 or 4 other players can easily make a case of being better then him but we all ignore that aspect because we never really seen them play in their prime.

So we just assume he's the greatest, and it just seems so lop-sided because it's mostly this generation that's comparing him to everyone else. I'm positive a different perspective will be presented if say the Baby Boomer generation were posting on this forum, I think they would have a greater insight on who truly was the best player of all-time and I'm pretty sure it will not be so one-sided.

Except a lot of players from PAST generations (Russell, West, etc.) call Jordan the greatest. Guess it's because they never saw themselves play in their prime. :oldlol:

Also, if you take a look at all of Michael's accomplishments with a non-biased type of way, you'd see that a case can be made that it's indeed lopsided.

[Manute for Ever!]

Jordan will most probably be outdone in his lifetime, but, when it is done, it will be like reinventing the wheel. That is what makes MJ so great, what he has done is completely unprecidented, everything from a SG/Sf from here on will always be compared to Jordan. He has set the standard to which greatness for the SG position is measured. Players may come along that play the same position, but they saw footage of Jordan and replicated it, who did Jordan see to do what he did? Jordan has said in the past that it was David Thompsom, He had his chance and blew it, therefore the blueprint will be Jordan for a long time to come.

[BIZARRO]

Oh, and by the way whenever you run into an idiot like Poseidon yapping about Michael and today's league, just past the below post by kblaze. that way you don't have to waste time on a simpleton.

Jordan in 02 got hurt around the all star break and because he didnt want to quit on the team played through much of it and only put up 16ppg and played just 28 minutes after the break. But before it....

25/6/5.3 and he was getting better. Working into shape. he month just before he got hurt he averaged a rounded off 27/7/5.

Kobe for the year put up a rounded up 25/6/6 and Jordan before he went down put up...25/6/5. jordan slightly up in blocks. Both with 1.48 steals. And Kobe played more minutes. Jordan was at 25/6/5 in under 35 minutes a game. Kobe has not played minutes that low since 1998. Kobe shot better from the field that year. But Jordan was not the Jordan of old. He was old Jordan. He was out there hesitating to dunk because he didnt want to miss.


This "era" **** has gotten totally out of control when people think Michael Jordan would fail to do anything these days. Wade just led a team to a title while being worse than Jordan at literally every single phase of the game. And thats something often said but rarely true. But Jordan in his prime was a better midrange, outside, and in the lane shooter, a better defender in the post and outside, a better passer, rebounder, and really...everything. Well I guess MJ didnt have Wades crossover but a crossover and ball handling arent the same thing. Jordan was better than Wade at getting where he wanted to be. And thats enough ball handling for me.

If Jordan 12-15 years removed from his physical peak in a stage of his life he had to be all skills and could barely even dunk could put up 25/6/5 in a league that had basically every current great player aside from Lebron and Wade how is an equally skilled but far more athletic Jordan going to fail to dominate?

Jordan had comp to equal anyones. Nobody in this league now that Kevin Willis is gone has even played a team the equal of the Showtime Lakers or Birds Celtics. Well no. is cliff still around in NJ? If so...no star has played them. None of these guards have had to beat Dumars and/or Rodman to go into the lane and get knock the **** out by Laimbeer and have them get away with it. Nobody today is going into the lane and running into centers like Hakeem/Drob/Mutombo in his prime/Zo/Ewing and so on.

And Jordan played when despite getting favored by the refs he couldnt get the calls Wade, AI, Bron, and Kobe do. The rules have changed in their favors. NBA allows a zone but teams dont really use it well and teams in the 80s used it too they just got away with it(unless they were playing Pat Riley who loved to point it out to refs when his own team wasnt using one).

You cant even handcheck a guy anymore. Much less all the **** Rodman, Moncrief, Jones, Gerald Wilkins, Starks, Dumars, nance, DJ, and such did to MJ. And the athletic difference between the best modern outside defenders and MJs isnt big. The best man to man defender now is probably Bruce Bowen who is hardly an athletic freak. Hes just determined, with good fundamentals, and allowed to play alllllllmost like 90s defenders could. So there is prince. There was Bobby Jones, Gerald Wilklins, Spider Smith(with his 7'6'' wingspan) and Larry Nance who guarded everyone from 2-5. Nance athletically may have no current better of his build. Closest would be Josh Smith. Nance wasl ike 6'10'' both fast and quick(difference) with hops like few ive ever seen.

There are tough bigmen like Ben Wallace now. No current center is either as athletic or skilled on D as Hakeem and Drob were. Or Ewing for that matter if you use pre injury Ewing. Which bigmen now are better disrupting an offense than Zo was? Or Mutombo?

How many pointguards now are better defenders than Gary Payton was? Or Alvin Robertson? Or Derek Harper? How many swingmen are better defenders than Pippen, Jordan, Rodman(who was a swingman type early and the best 3/4 defender later), Cooper Moncrief, and so on? How many 4s are better defenders than Oakley, Williams, and Mccray? I can think of 2. And Jordan played both.

Is this all D team:

Ben
Bowen
AK
Artest
Kidd
Kobe(they had 6 last year with a tie)

really better than this one from 10 years ago?

Payton
Jordan
Pippen
Rodman
Drob

?

And its not like Jordan played all old guys who dont play now. Or bad comp period. He played Duncan, Shaq, Dirk, Tmac, AI, Kidd, Pierce, Webber, KG and all them. In fact he played 9 of the 11 people currently on the all D team. And 11 of the 15 all NBA players. Not to mention Magic, Bird, Hakeem, Zo, Ewing, Isiah, Drexler, Malone, Stockton, Barkley, Kareem, Mchale, Nique, Grant Hill, Penny, Tim Hardaway, Mitch Richmond, Kemp, LJ, Mullin, KJ, Reggie Miller and more.

Jordan isnt one of those "era" guys. Even if someone thought he was the fact that he played against every great player to enter the NBA in the last 22 years aside from Lebron and Wade should kill that idea. And if anyone still wasnt convinced seeing a 38-39 yearold Jordan on bad knees robbed of his athletic ability and playing just 35 minutes put up 25/6/5 in 2002 should have left no doubt.

Michael Jordan in any setting is Michael Jordan. If he played and dominated any and everyone in his path in a prime including some of the greatest defenders and scorers in basketball history I doubt hed crumble in the face of the mighty shutdown D of Tayshaun Prince and Ron Artest or the amazing offensive talents of Wade and Lebron.

Michael Jordan in his prime dominated the 80s and 90s. MJ after his prime was among the best in the 2000s when healthy. You could drop MJ in his prime into the 2255 NBA and watch him put up 32/6/6 vs 7'3'' shooting guards with Dirk range and KG athletic ability.

Hes Michael Jordan. End of story.


TREMENDOUS. :applause: :applause: :applause:

[BIZARRO]

Jordan will most probably be outdone in his lifetime, but, when it is done, it will be like reinventing the wheel. That is what makes MJ so great, what he has done is completely unprecidented, everything from a SG/Sf from here on will always be compared to Jordan. He has set the standard to which greatness for the SG position is measured. Players may come along that play the same position, but they saw footage of Jordan and replicated it, who did Jordan see to do what he did? Jordan has said in the past that it was David Thompsom, He had his chance and blew it, therefore the blueprint will be Jordan for a long time to come.

Yes, when I think about it I find it hard to see anyone surpassing MJ for a LOOOOOONNNNNG time. I mean, he is that far above anything I've ever seen.

I mean (and I know I am in the minority), Kobe came closer as an individual force than anyone would care to admit. But even he was still not that close.

I could be wrong and the second coming of someone who is going to be beterr than MJ could be announced tomorrow, I just don't see it happening for dozens of years if I was to predict.

[kgisbigticket]

Yeah because guys like Kareem Abdul Jabbar, Magic Johnson or Wilt Chamberlain don't have a case.

Listen to this advice and take it to heart.
Michael Jordan is overrated by this generation of fans because he's the greatest basketball player in our generation, 3 or 4 other players can easily make a case of being better then him but we all ignore that aspect because we never really seen them play in their prime.

So we just assume he's the greatest, and it just seems so lop-sided because it's mostly this generation that's comparing him to everyone else. I'm positive a different perspective will be presented if say the Baby Boomer generation were posting on this forum, I think they would have a greater insight on who truly was the best player of all-time and I'm pretty sure it will not be so one-sided.

Well all of these guys lost series when the favorite.

[quote]Wilt Chamberlain (lost in

[kgisbigticket]

Jordan will most probably be outdone in his lifetime, but, when it is done, it will be like reinventing the wheel. That is what makes MJ so great, what he has done is completely unprecidented, everything from a SG/Sf from here on will always be compared to Jordan. He has set the standard to which greatness for the SG position is measured. Players may come along that play the same position, but they saw footage of Jordan and replicated it, who did Jordan see to do what he did? Jordan has said in the past that it was David Thompsom, He had his chance and blew it, therefore the blueprint will be Jordan for a long time to come.


Do you actually see someone else getting 6 Finals MVP's and 5 League MVP's? Or getting 10 scoring titles, having the highest PER average or averaging 30+ ppg in the season, playoffs and finals?

I sure don't see it.

[Kebab Stall]

That post from Kblaze and the other from that poster from another forum were a damn good read. Those posts just go to show how amazing Jordan was. People like to compare players to Jordan all the time, but in my eyes I don't think they should ever be compared to Jordan unless they are perfect, or near perfect (obviously I know he wasn't perfect, but he was sure as close), at damn near every aspect of the game.

Not to mention Jordan's will and determination. The mentality of never backing down from a challenge, always wanting to be the best no matter how much blood, sweat and tears it took, or how much energy it drained from his body. Jordan wanted to be the best and to me he certainly accomlished it. Will we we ever see another player with that kind of mentality, will and determination, I doubt it, which is a damn shame.

[Knoe Itawl]

Yes, when I think about it I find it hard to see anyone surpassing MJ for a LOOOOOONNNNNG time. I mean, he is that far above anything I've ever seen.

I mean (and I know I am in the minority), Kobe came closer as an individual force than anyone would care to admit. But even he was still not that close.

I could be wrong and the second coming of someone who is going to be beterr than MJ could be announced tomorrow, I just don't see it happening for dozens of years if I was to predict.

Kobe's come close as a regular season scorer at times, but please tell me how his post season exploits come anywhere near Jordan? Don't fall in the trap of seeing Kobe's 81 or 50 point streaks and pretending that's "close" to Jordan. Because when you look at the overall picture, there's just no comparison. Also, are you saying Bron's come closest to Jordan too because there are a lot of people calling Bron the best player in the league currently. So if he's better than Kobe, does that mean he's getting close to Jordan too?

The playoffs is where the competition is greater, the pressure is greater and where NBA legends are made. Put Kobe's playoff career next to Jordan's and you'll quickly see that there is NO comparison.

Also, when you say "close" are you talking about as a scorer, or as a player? Because you realize that there are other all time players that are better than Kobe, right?

[clayton]

I kinda agree with the "right time right place".

Who knows what will happen if our current SG Stars get a chance to play back 15 years ago, surrounded by a supporting cast such as the Bulls with modernized atheletic move sets.

[Manute for Ever!]

Do you actually see someone else getting 6 Finals MVP's and 5 League MVP's? Or getting 10 scoring titles, having the highest PER average or averaging 30+ ppg in the season, playoffs and finals?

I sure don't see it.

My point led more towards the whole "Records Are Meant to be Broken" mentallity. Stats aside, I agree whole-heartedly with you. But, "if" (and by "if", I mean "when", it is inevitable) someone comes along in the watered down recesses of what we know as the NBA, they will have learned from the greatest. They will not have faced the adversities of the greatest. No SG has done what Jordan did when he did it, dillution of talent, lack of successful SG's in NBA history prior to MJ, personal adversity, and other factors (lesser influence on the college game, for example) will keep Jordans legacy at the forefront of NBA conciousness. If you want to take it to a marketing level (which I don't), has the NBA ever had a more marketable star? Jordan represents everything that has ever been right with the League.

[kgisbigticket]

Kobe's come close as a regular season scorer at times, but please tell me how his post season exploits come anywhere near Jordan? Don't fall in the trap of seeing Kobe's 81 or 50 point streaks and pretending that's "close" to Jordan. Because when you look at the overall picture, there's just no comparison. Also, are you saying Bron's come closest to Jordan too because there are a lot of people calling Bron the best player in the league currently. So if he's better than Kobe, does that mean he's getting close to Jordan too?

The playoffs is where the competition is greater, the pressure is greater and where NBA legends are made. Put Kobe's playoff career next to Jordan's and you'll quickly see that there is NO comparison.

Also, when you say "close" are you talking about as a scorer, or as a player? Because you realize that there are other all time players that are better than Kobe, right?

Here are the playoff top games.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/basketball/nba/2002/playoffs/top_individual_points/

Top Playoff Single-Game Scoring Performances
Player Team Opponent Total Date
Michael Jordan Chicago at Boston 63 April 20, 1986
Elgin Baylor L.A. Lakers at Boston 61 April 14, 1962
Wilt Chamberlain Philadelphia Syracuse 56 March 22, 1962
Michael Jordan Chicago at Miami 56 April 29, 1992
Charles Barkley Phoenix at Golden State 56 May 4, 1994
Michael Jordan Chicago Cleveland 55 May 1, 1988
Michael Jordan Chicago Phoenix 55 June 16, 1993
Michael Jordan Chicago Washington 55 April 27, 1997
John Havlicek Boston Atlanta 54 April 1, 1973
Michael Jordan Chicago New York 54 May 31, 1993
Allen Iverson Philadelphia Toronto 54 May 9, 2001
Wilt Chamberlain Philadelphia Syracuse 53 March 14, 1960
Jerry West L.A. Lakers Boston 53 April 23, 1969
Jerry West L.A. Lakers Baltimore 52 April 5, 1965
Allen Iverson Philadelphia Toronto 52 May 16, 2001
Sam Jones Boston at New York 51 March 28, 1967
Eric Floyd Golden State L.A. Lakers 51 May 10, 1987
Bob Cousy Boston Syracuse 50* March 21, 1953
Bob Petit St. Louis Boston 50 April 12, 1958
Wilt Chamberlain Philadelphia at Boston 50 March 22, 1950
Wilt Chamberlain San Francisco St. Louis 50 April 10, 1964
Billy Cunningham Philadelphia Milwaukee 50 April 1, 1970
Bob McAdoo Buffalo Washington 50 April 18, 1975
Dominique Wilkins Atlanta Detroit 50 April 19, 1986
Michael Jordan Chicago Cleveland 50 April 28, 1988
Michael Jordan Chicago Cleveland 50^ May 5, 1989
Karl Malone Utah Seattle 50 April 22, 2000
Vince Carter Toronto Philadelphia 50 May 11, 2001
*4 overtimes
^overtime

This is courtesy of NBA on NBC here:

NBA PLAYOFFS HIGH SCORING GAME BY YEAR
1946-47 - 37 Joe Fulks, PHW vs CHI at PHW 16Apr47
1947-48 - 34 Connie Simmons, BLT vs NYK at BLT 27Mar48
1948-49 - 42 George Mikan, MPL vs WSC 4Apr49 @ MPL
1949-50 - 40 George Mikan, MPL vs SYR at MPL 23Apr50
1950-51 - 41 George Mikan, MPL vs IDS at MPL 21Mar51
1951-52 - 47 George Mikan, MPL at ROC 29Mar52
1952-53 - 50 Bob Cousy, BOS vs SYR at BOS 21Mar53
1953-54 - 36 Dolph Schayes, SYR at NYK 21Mar54
1954-55 - 32 Bill Sharman, BOS at SYR 24Mar55
1955-56 - 43 Neil Johnson, PHW at SYR 25Mar56
1956-57 - 42 Bob Leonard, MPL vs STL at MPL 25Mar57
1957-58 - 50 Bob Pettit, STL vs BOS at STL 12Apr58
1958-59 - 40 Cliff Hagan, STL vs MPL at STL 21Mar59
1959-60 - 53 Wilt Chamberlain, PHW vs SYR at PHW 14Mar60
1960-61 - 47 Elgin Baylor, LAL at DET 18Mar61
............... 47 Elgin Baylor, LAL at STL 27Mar61
1961-62 - 61 Elgin Baylor, LAL at BOS 14Apr62
1962-63 - 47 Sam Jones, BOS vs CIN at BOS 10Apr63
1963-64 - 50 Wilt Chamberlain, SFW vs STL at SFW 10Apr64
1964-65 - 52 Jerry West, LAL vs BAL at LAL 3Apr65
1965-66 - 46 Wilt Chamberlain, PHI vs BOS at PHI 12Apr66
1966-67 - 55 Rick Barry, SFW vs PHI at SFW 18Apr67
1967-68 - 46 Zelmo Beaty, STL vs SFW 23Mar68 @ STL
1968-69 - 53 Jerry West, LAL vs BOS at LAL 23Apr69
1969-70 - 50 Billy Cunningham, PHI vs MIL at PHI 1Apr70
1970-71 - 39 Gail Goodrich, LAL at CHI 28Mar71
1971-72 - 43 John Havlicek BOS at ATL 31Mar72
1972-73 - 54 John Havlicek, BOS vs ATL at BOS 1Apr73
1973-74 - 44 Bob McAdoo, BUF vs BOS 6Apr74 at BUF
............... 44 Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, MIL at CHI 18Apr74
1974-75 - 50 Bob McAdoo, BUF vs WAS at BUF 18Apr75
1975-76 - 45 Fred Brown, SEA vs PHO at SEA 15Apr76
1976-77 - 45 Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, LAL vs GSW at LAL 29Apr77
1977-78 - 46 George Gervin, SAN vs WAS at SAN 18Apr78
1978-79 - 42 George Gervin, SAN vs WAS at SAN 11May79
............... 42 George Gervin, SAN at WAS 18May79
1979-80 - 44 George Gervin, SAN vs HOU at SAN 4Apr80
1980-81 - 42 Calvin Murphy, HOU at SAN 17Apr81
............... 42 Moses Malone, HOU vs KCK at HOU 26Apr81
1981-82 - 39 George Gervin, SAN vs LAL at SAN 14May82
............... 39 Andrew Toney, PHI vs BOS at PHI 16May82
1982-83 - 42 Alex English, DEN vs PHO at PHO 24Apr83
............... 42 George Gervin, SAN at DEN 26Apr83
1983-84 - 46 Bernard King, NYK at DET 19Apr84
............... 46 Bernard King, NYK vs DET at NYK 22Apr84
1984-85 - 43 Rolando Blackman, DAL vs POR at DAL 18Apr85
............... 43 Larry Bird, BOS vs DET at BOS 8May85
1985-86 - 63 Michael Jordan, CHI at BOS 20Apr86
1986-87 - 51 Sleepy Floyd, GSW vs LAL at GSW 10May87
1987-88 - 55 Michael Jordan, CHI vs CLE at CHI 1May88
1988-89 - 50 Michael Jordan, CHI vs CLE at CHI 5May89
1989-90 - 49 Michael Jordan, CHI at PHI 11May90
1990-91 - 46 Michael Jordan, CHI at PHI 10May91
1991-92 - 56 Michael Jordan, CHI at MIA 29Apr92
1992-93 - 55 Michael Jordan, CHI vs PHO at CHI 16Jun93
1993-94 - 56 Charles Barkley, PHO at GSW 4May94
1994-95 - 48 Michael Jordan, CHI at CHA 28Apr95
1995-96 - 46 Michael Jordan, CHI at NYK 11May96
1996-97 - 55 Michael Jordan, CHI vs WAS at CHI 27Apr97
1997-98 - 45 Michael Jordan, CHI at UTA 14Jun98
1998-99 - 37 Tim Duncan, SAN at LAL 22May99
............... 37 Scottie Pippen, HOU vs LAL at HOU 13May99
............... 37 Shaquille O'Neal, LAL vs HOU at HOU 15May99
............... 37 Allen Iverson, PHI vs ORL at PHI 15May99
1999-00 - 50 Karl Malone, UTA vs SEA at UTA 22Apr00
-----
ALL-TIME HIGHEST SCORING AVERAGES, NBA PLAYOFFS
Jerry West, LAL vs BAL, 1965..... 46.3
Michael Jordan, CHI vs CLE, 1988..... 45.2
Michael Jordan, CHI vs MIA, 1992..... 45.0

ALL-TIME HIGHEST SCORING AVERAGES, NBA CHAMPIONSHIP SERIES/NBA FINALS
Michael Jordan, CHI vs PHO, 1993..... 41.0
Rick Barry, SFW vs PHI, 1965..... 40.8
Elgin Baylor, LAL vs BOS, 1962..... 40.6


Also MJ has 6 playoffs series where he averaged at least 40 ppg.

Also MJ has a 33.4 ppg in the playoffs. Kobe has never even in one playoff year averaged what MJ's average was.

[iamgine]

I'd like to think of you as older than 9 but I can't.

ask yo mama then when she get back.



Physically, MJ is just as good as the next superstar, nothing very special. What he can do, Lebron or Kobe can do.

It's his mentality and charisma that sets him apart. He spread the winning attitude amongst his teammates. I doubt his teammates would be as good as they were without him in the picture. People keep saying he has great teammates, that's why he won so much championship. Well, I think his teammates are great largely because of him.

Sadly, I don't think the next next generation will acknowledge Jordan as #1.

[Optimus Prime]

I hate to do it, but I have to totally agree with Knoe here. All these fools saying that MJ would just be "another swingman today" are literally retarded.

Who do you think raised the standards so high that the things MJ did back in the 90s are common place today? Oh, that's right, Michael Jordan.

Now people are using the "he played against old, athletic guys and sorry competition" against Michael Jordan? Really? Wow.

Just...wow.

[Knoe Itawl]

I kinda agree with the "right time right place".

Who knows what will happen if our current SG Stars get a chance to play back 15 years ago, surrounded by a supporting cast such as the Bulls with modernized atheletic move sets.

Wow, that was a brilliant argument that completely rebutted all of the points that people have written to show that "right time, right place" is bullshyt invented by Kobe fans.

Seriously, really convicing stuff you wrote. :rolleyes:

[kgisbigticket]

I kinda agree with the "right time right place".

Who knows what will happen if our current SG Stars get a chance to play back 15 years ago, surrounded by a supporting cast such as the Bulls with modernized atheletic move sets.

What do you mean if they get to play with the Bulls supporting cast?

Jordan made that supporting cast what it was. He made them tough.

Pippen didn't develop for 4 years and the same for Grant. MJ aided those guys and worked with what he had. He didn't go out and ask to trade for a star or go to a star studded team like Kobe wants to.

Besides, these guys these days would cry if they had to play the Pistons, Knicks or Heat with the physical way they played.

[Knoe Itawl]

ask yo mama then when she get back.



Physically, MJ is just as good as the next superstar, nothing very special. What he can do, Lebron or Kobe can do

It's his mentality and charisma that sets him apart. He spread the winning attitude amongst his teammates. I doubt his teammates would be as good as they were without him in the picture. People keep saying he has great teammates, that's why he won so much championship. Well, I think his teammates are great largely because of him.

Sadly, I don't think the next next generation will acknowledge Jordan as #1.

This right here shows that you have to be 8 years old. Come back when you learn some more about basketball and let grown folks talk. Run along now.

[kgisbigticket]

ask yo mama then when she get back.



Physically, MJ is just as good as the next superstar, nothing very special. What he can do, Lebron or Kobe can do.

It's his mentality and charisma that sets him apart. He spread the winning attitude amongst his teammates. I doubt his teammates would be as good as they were without him in the picture. People keep saying he has great teammates, that's why he won so much championship. Well, I think his teammates are great largely because of him.

Sadly, I don't think the next next generation will acknowledge Jordan as #1.

Well when someone gets 6 finals MVP, and the highest scoring average in all the season, playoffs and finals and the highest PER average along with the most seasons of 30+ PER then we can have a debate.

[Knoe Itawl]

What do you mean if they get to play with the Bulls supporting cast?

Jordan made that supporting cast what it was. He made them tough.

Pippen didn't develop for 4 years and the same for Grant. MJ aided those guys and worked with what he had. He didn't go out and ask to trade for a star or go to a star studded team like Kobe wants to.

Besides, these guys these days would cry if they had to play the Pistons, Knicks or Heat with the physical way they played.

Look, don't bother with people like that clown or anyone else who can't offer detailed reasoning for their beliefs.

Anyone can come in and say "Duh, I think that today's swingmen are so athletic and so they are as good as Jordan"

Without saying anything to back up the claim.

[Manute for Ever!]

This right here shows that you have to be 8 years old. Come back when you learn some more about basketball and let grown folks talk. Run along now.

To be our age and have seen it, it almost physically hurts to reads **** like that, it is so insulting. It is not a matter of being trapped in the past, more a matter of how much the younger fans will never know.

[JohnnyBravo5]

Josh Smith is a better shotblocker than MJ!:roll:

Tim Hardaway had a better crossover

George Gervin could fingeroll better than MJ

[XxNeXuSxX]

I've said this once and I'll say it again....

Jordan = right place, right time

He'd just be another great swingman had he played in today's game. Jordan would be grouped wirth Kobe, Wade, Iverson and McGrady (also maybe LeBron).


I kinda agree with the "right time right place".

Who knows what will happen if our current SG Stars get a chance to play back 15 years ago, surrounded by a supporting cast such as the Bulls with modernized atheletic move sets.



How stupid are people becoming? The board is becoming infested with 8 year olds.

[EricForman]

I've said this once and I'll say it again....

Jordan = right place, right time

He'd just be another great swingman had he played in today's game. Jordan would be grouped wirth Kobe, Wade, Iverson and McGrady (also maybe LeBron).

Also his stats would not be as inflated due to Zone defense, non-hand checking rule and better athletes in his position and in the league.

No more 50 point games againt the Craig Ehlo's or the Danny Ainge's or the Jeff Malone's of the world. He'll now be facing some real, athletic competition.

Also players like Vince Carter, Jason Richardson, Josh Smith and about 10 others would put Jordan's "AIR" moniker to shame with their dunks compared the MJ's generic ones. He can kiss any Slam Dunk title away because he would NEVER win one in today's league.

:oldlol:

Poseidon is quite possibly the worse poster in the history of ISH...agree?

[Knoe Itawl]

To be our age and have seen it, it almost physically hurts to reads **** like that, it is so insulting. It is not a matter of being trapped in the past, more a matter of how much the younger fans will never know.

The problem with these little kids is that they think they know everything at like 12 or so instead of realizing that maybe they should learn some more before they try to talk to people who have been watching/analyzing the game for a long long time and have SEEN Jordan's career AND Kobe/LeBron/Wade, etc.

[kgisbigticket]

Josh Smith is a better shotblocker than MJ!:roll:

Tim Hardaway had a better crossover

George Gervin could fingeroll better than MJ


Also, Jordan never, and I mean never got outplayed in any playoff series by anyone. He was always, and always the best player on the court and had the better numbers.


No other player in History can say that.

[Manute for Ever!]

Poseidon is quite possibly the worse poster in the history of ISH...agree?

Not to take away from the topic a hand but... BULLS?

[bagelred]

Jordan was the greatest competitor I've ever seen in any sport ever. Period.

To those who think Kobe, Lebron, Wade, etc. are better than Jordan, they have never actually seen Jordan play and watch his playoff series. If you did, you'd realize this is a foolish thread....

This is not making players in the past better than they were. Jordan was UNBELIEVABLE...literally. Ever time you watched him in a game, you would say, "Is this guy for real?"

I've said that about Kobe a couple of times. Lebron once (in the playoffs). Wade never.

[BIZARRO]

To be our age and have seen it, it almost physically hurts to reads **** like that, it is so insulting. It is not a matter of being trapped in the past, more a matter of how much the younger fans will never know.

Truly.

I mean, I'm sure all generations go through it, where they favor players of the past they remember. I mean I'm sure some people from NY in the '50's still think Mickey Mantle was the greatest or that Jim Brown was the greatest in Cleveland.

That being said; just because I thought Joe Montana was the best QB I've ever seen for example, doesn't mean that Tom Brady isn't or won't be better. Or that Albert Pujols will be better than Lou Gehrig or whatever.
I mean, I feel most rational people are pretty open to players coming along who are better. It's only natural.

Except...

for Michael Jordan. To me, he is the exception. I will NEVER forget how great he was, because the whole time in the late '80's (and early '90's to an extent) I kept saying to myself and friends, don't EVER forget just how great this guy is and exactly what you are watching.

The scary thing about MJ is that the words on that statue outside the UC, with the best there ever was/will be, are kind of true.

I mean, I am almost positive some gentic freak will come along and be better. But it is going to take SO much to do it. I don't see it happening for the longest time.

I mean, MJ is just a couple cuts above any athlete I've ever seen. Physically, but even moreso mentally. :bowdown:

[kgisbigticket]

Michael Jordan will always be the greatest in Basketball
Babe Ruth will always be the greatest in Baseball
Wayne Gretzky will always be the greatest in Hockey
Ali will always be the greatest in Boxing



Each of those player did too much for their respective sport. MJ has so much influence on the game that it is not even funny. People still wear his jumpman and air jordan headband and shoes.

Do you see anyone wearing a Kobe headband?

[artificial]

What I love about this threads is that the OP usually disappears after the first posts.

I wonder if they get scared after the masacre they get, or they are just trolls looking at how people will react.

[kidachi]

To be our age and have seen it, it almost physically hurts to reads **** like that, it is so insulting. It is not a matter of being trapped in the past, more a matter of how much the younger fans will never know.


very true. :applause:

but I'm not that old. yes I was already watching the NBA when it was in the Jordan era, but i was young then. :D

[Phenomenon]

I've said that about Kobe a couple of times. Lebron once (in the playoffs). Wade never.

I remember John Salley claiming that Magic Johnson was the greatest player he's ever seen, and someone asked him "What about Jordan."

John Salley simply replied..."Magic!!!"
So is Salley stupid because he didn't pick your precious? Of course not, he was old enough to see other legends play the game...the rules were different back then, so looking at statistics as the sole analysis is completely misleading. Of course there are hundreds of memorable moments from Jordan's career, just like there are from those other legends...most of you just can't be bothered to actually do some research about them so you simply stick with the obvious choice, a player you grew up watching. I'm not really blaming you, hard to argue against his success and accolades...it's just not as one sided as some of you like to think.

I'd say there are about 3-4 other players in the same tier as Michael Jordan, but to think no one should be compared to him is bias at its best.

Elders in my life, I'd say about two of them consider Jordan to be the greatest...everyone else leans toward Bird or Magic or Kareem or Hakeem Olajuwon. So I mean everyone has an opinion, I just think if you ask an older generation who have seen guys like Baylor, West, Wilt and Russell play...their opinions will be somewhat different.

[Manute for Ever!]

Jordan was the greatest competitor I've ever seen in any sport ever. Period.

To those who think Kobe, Lebron, Wade, etc. are better than Jordan, they have never actually seen Jordan play and watch his playoff series. If you did, you'd realize this is a foolish thread....

This is not making players in the past better than they were. Jordan was UNBELIEVABLE...literally. Ever time you watched him in a game, you would say, "Is this guy for real?"

I've said that about Kobe a couple of times. Lebron once (in the playoffs). Wade never.

Let's make a hypothetical statement... Take a 15 year old fan, they were born when the Dream Team was playing in Barcelona, when basketball meant something. The greatest collection of sporting takent EVER. A current nineth grade kid proceeded a stain on the sheets when the greatest team ever assembled ever played. I still have my Jordan and Pippen Dream Team Jerseys. Being league Leader in this or that didn't matter, being the first athletic billionaire didn't matter, only winning mattered and that is all that should matter.

[iamgine]

This right here shows that you have to be 8 years old. Come back when you learn some more about basketball and let grown folks talk. Run along now.

obviously you dont read too good. learn to read with both eyes and mind open son.



Well when someone gets 6 finals MVP, and the highest scoring average in all the season, playoffs and finals and the highest PER average along with the most seasons of 30+ PER then we can have a debate.

"It's his mentality and charisma that sets him apart. He spread the winning attitude amongst his teammates. I doubt his teammates would be as good as they were without him in the picture. People keep saying he has great teammates, that's why he won so much championship. Well, I think his teammates are great largely because of him."

Again, what MJ can do physically, Lebron or Kobe can do. They just doesn't have his mentality and charisma. At least not yet.

MJ's teammates are great because of his mental qualities. He just elevates everyone's game in the team. MJ's team was really good largely because of him --> his number was great largely because his team was really good. It was interconnected.

[BIZARRO]

Michael Jordan will always be the greatest in Basketball
Babe Ruth will always be the greatest in Baseball
Wayne Gretzky will always be the greatest in Hockey
Ali will always be the greatest in Boxing



Each of those player did too much for their respective sport. MJ has so much influence on the game that it is not even funny. People still wear his jumpman and air jordan headband and shoes.

Do you see anyone wearing a Kobe headband?


I agree with the comment in bold (at least for a long, long time)
But not with other three.

I think due to the fact of weight training, etc. (not steroids:( ) a player will come along, if he hasn't already, who will be better than The Babe.

Gretzky has the longevity records, but it is arguable that Lemieux at his peak was better. Much bigger and more dominant physically, defensively and very comparable in their best offensive seasons. I'd probably take Gretz, by a VERY slim margin, but I feel that a player will come along soon who will be better. The ceiling is very reachable. (I played hockey for 20 years, college, etc. for those with credibility issues)

Ali to me wasn't the greatest boxer. I think by most accounts from experts Sugar Ray Robinson was pound for pound. Yes, I would take the Liston version Ali over any heavyweight though. And would put him top 5 boxers ever. He was the greatest sports figure though as a personality IMO though.
Not likely to be topped there.

But yes, the gap between MJ and the rest in Basketball is greater than that of any other sport. (Golf would be second with Tiger IMO)

[Manute for Ever!]

Truly.

I mean, I'm sure all generations go through it, where they favor players of the past they remember. I mean I'm sure some people from NY in the '50's still think Mickey Mantle was the greatest or that Jim Brown was the greatest in Cleveland.

That being said; just because I thought Joe Montana was the best QB I've ever seen for example, doesn't mean that Tom Brady isn't or won't be better. Or that Albert Pujols will be better than Lou Gehrig or whatever.
I mean, I feel most rational people are pretty open to players coming along who are better. It's only natural.

Except...

for Michael Jordan. To me, he is the exception. I will NEVER forget how great he was, because the whole time in the late '80's (and early '90's to an extent) I kept saying to myself and friends, don't EVER forget just how great this guy is and exactly what you are watching.

The scary thing about MJ is that the words on that statue outside the UC, with the best there ever was/will be, are kind of true.

I mean, I am almost positive some gentic freak will come along and be better. But it is going to take SO much to do it. I don't see it happening for the longest time.

I mean, MJ is just a couple cuts above any athlete I've ever seen. Physically, but even moreso mentally. :bowdown:

That piece you wrote a couple of days ago summed it up. Jordan games were an event. You summed it up perfectly and I want to personally thank you for bringing that feeling back for the few minutes it took to read your post.

[kgisbigticket]

obviously you dont read too good. learn to read with both eyes and mind open son.



"It's his mentality and charisma that sets him apart. He spread the winning attitude amongst his teammates. I doubt his teammates would be as good as they were without him in the picture. People keep saying he has great teammates, that's why he won so much championship. Well, I think his teammates are great largely because of him."

Again, what MJ can do physically, Lebron or Kobe can do. They just doesn't have his mentality and charisma. At least not yet.

MJ's teammates are great because of his mental qualities. He just elevates everyone's game in the team. MJ's team was really good largely because of him --> his number was great largely because his team was really good. It was interconnected.


Not only that, but MJ could win titles without a dominant big man because MJ had the efficiency of a dominant big man. In fact, his effiency was greater than Shaq and Wilt as indicated by him having the highest PER.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/PER_career.html

1 Michael Jordan 27.91
2 Shaquille O'Neal 27.63
3 David Robinson 26.18
4 Wilt Chamberlain* 26.13
5 Bob Pettit* 25.34
6 Tim Duncan 25.17
7 Charles Barkley* 24.63
8 Neil Johnston* 24.62
9 Kareem Abdul-Jabbar* 24.58


Your Top 9 are all big men except MJ. Just goes to show how good he really was.

[BIZARRO]

I remember John Salley claiming that Magic Johnson was the greatest player he's ever seen, and someone asked him "What about Jordan."

John Salley simply replied..."Magic!!!"
So is Salley stupid because he didn't pick your precious? Of course not, he was old enough to see other legends play the game...the rules were different back then, so looking at statistics as the sole analysis is completely misleading. Of course there are hundreds of memorable moments from Jordan's career, just like there are from those other legends...most of you just can't be bothered to actually do some research about them so you simply stick with the obvious choice, a player you grew up watching. I'm not really blaming you, hard to argue against his success and accolades...it's just not as one sided as some of you like to think.

I'd say there are about 3-4 other players in the same tier as Michael Jordan, but to think no one should be compared to him is bias at its best.

Elders in my life, I'd say about two of them consider Jordan to be the greatest...everyone else leans toward Bird or Magic or Kareem or Hakeem Olajuwon. So I mean everyone has an opinion, I just think if you ask an older generation who have seen guys like Baylor, West, Wilt and Russell play...their opinions will be somewhat different.


Well, all you'd have to do is ask Magic, and he'd tell you Jordan.

[Phenomenon]

Well, all you'd have to do is ask Magic, and he'd tell you Jordan.

Well, really? :oldlol:
Because Magic Johnson more then once said Larry Bird was the greatest player he's ever seen. Either he's completely contradicting himself or you're just making stuff up.

But I'll gladly see a link from you to back that statement up.

[dejordan]

funniest thing about these threads, which pop up all the time, is:

A - the overwhelming evidence that jordan at least has an equal argument to anybody else for goat being ignored by young posters who didn't really watch him using theories that they've concocted that fly in the face of every top sports analyst of the last decade, as though nobody on the planet is as smart as their 13 year old ass.

B - the bizarre way that it's almost always lakers fan who side against mike - and not kobe fans really, but honest to god lakers fans. magic fans especially. which is fine, but odd. i almost never hear celtics fan toting bird or russell or phili fans on wilt.

anyway. even if you never saw him play a game, if 10 scoring titles, 6 finals mvps, 9 all-d teams, and one title for every season in which he played with another all-star doesn't at least merit consideration against anybody else you can think of, then you're just being obtuse. i wholeheartedly agree with really looking into your selection as deeply as possible and not just riding the popular wave to a conculsion, but writing off the accepted goat because you want to be different is just as stupid as accepting him because you want to fit in.

[BIZARRO]

Well, all you'd have to do is ask Magic, and he'd tell you Jordan.


That's not a slight at Magic, however, as he is in my top 3. :bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown:

[kgisbigticket]

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/basketball/nba/2003-02-06-dupree-team_x.htm


Magic Johnson says there is no debate.

"Michael is the greatest player ever, and Bill Russell is the greatest winner ever and always will be," says Johnson, who joins Jordan in the backcourt on the first team.

[Loki]

Again, what MJ can do physically, Lebron or Kobe can do.

Where do you get that idea? Jordan was pretty clearly superior to Kobe athletically, and has athletic advantages on Lebron as well (though Lebron has some on him, which makes the matchup as overall athletes a closer one than between MJ/Kobe). For example, Jordan was far quicker laterally, more explosive (first step, change of pace, acceleration etc.), and a better two footed leaper and leaper off a hop step. Far better body control/coordination in general than Lebron. Far better reflexes. Other stuff is arguable (for example, I think Jordan was faster end to end, but it's arguable either way), but the above is not.

[dejordan]

Well, really? :oldlol:
Because Magic Johnson more then once said Larry Bird was the greatest player he's ever seen. Either he's completely contradicting himself or you're just making stuff up.

But I'll gladly see a link from you to back that statement up.
repeatedly over the years (even last year i think when the kobe comparison came up) he has said jordan. i suspect he said bird sometime before 1993, because by the 1992 finals (which he announced) he was already in jordan's corner.

for whatever that's worth.

[BIZARRO]

Well, really? :oldlol:
Because Magic Johnson more then once said Larry Bird was the greatest player he's ever seen. Either he's completely contradicting himself or you're just making stuff up.

But I'll gladly see a link from you to back that statement up.


Famous story about how Bird, Magic, and MJ all stayed up all night in Barcelona one night and they talked about about who's the greatest.

After going back and forth, Bird stopped the conversation and said, "Magic you were great, I was great, but MJ was the greatest." The way Bird put it, Magic and him conceded.


I'll try to find a link, but it's a pretty famous story.

[Phenomenon]

I heard numerous times Magic Johnson telling to Larry Bird that he's the greatest player he's ever seen. I guess it's out of respect for their rival, and him picking Jordan is his un-bias opinion. Fair enough.

Like I said, Jordan would make #1 on my list as well...I just don't think the gap is that large between him and other legends of the game.


i suspect he said bird sometime before 1993, because by the 1992 finals (which he announced) he was already in jordan's corner.

I wouldn't have brought that up if it was the case, I think last year he said that. I can't think off top of my head where I seen it, I think it was a special ceremony of some sort for Magic and Larry Bird was there??

Oh my god, I have amnesia.

[dejordan]

I heard numerous times Magic Johnson telling to Larry Bird that he's the greatest player he's ever seen. I guess it's out of respect for their rival, and him picking Jordan is his un-bias opinion. Fair enough.

Like I said, Jordan would make #1 on my list as well...I just don't think the gap is that large between him and other legends of the game.
agreed. i like this quote from jordan in that same article (whether he believes it or not):


"It's truly an accomplishment, and I take it in a prideful way," Jordan says of his "greatest" title. "But I don't accept it in the sense that I haven't played against the other great players. I've played against some good players and great players in my era, but I don't get to play against the other guys in other eras.

"I think that's unfair to those guys as well as to myself to say I'm the best that ever played because I never played against Wilt Chamberlain. I never played against Jerry West," Jordan says. "I respect the older players and if it wasn't for them, there is no way I could have become the player that I am. I've watched Jerry West. I've watched Walter Davis, David Thompson. They influenced my game. They've got to have a piece of what I've accomplished."

[Phenomenon]

"I think that's unfair to those guys as well as to myself to say I'm the best that ever played because I never played against Wilt Chamberlain. I never played against Jerry West," Jordan says. "I respect the older players and if it wasn't for them, there is no way I could have become the player that I am. I've watched Jerry West. I've watched Walter Davis, David Thompson. They influenced my game. They've got to have a piece of what I've accomplished."

It makes me feel good when I think like Michael Jordan. :)

[kidachi]

"It's truly an accomplishment, and I take it in a prideful way," Jordan says of his "greatest" title. "But I don't accept it in the sense that I haven't played against the other great players. I've played against some good players and great players in my era, but I don't get to play against the other guys in other eras.

"I think that's unfair to those guys as well as to myself to say I'm the best that ever played because I never played against Wilt Chamberlain. I never played against Jerry West," Jordan says. "I respect the older players and if it wasn't for them, there is no way I could have become the player that I am. I've watched Jerry West. I've watched Walter Davis, David Thompson. They influenced my game. They've got to have a piece of what I've accomplished."

:applause:

that should be every great player's mentality

[Loki]

I heard numerous times Magic Johnson telling to Larry Bird that he's the greatest player he's ever seen. I guess it's out of respect for their rival, and him picking Jordan is his un-bias opinion. Fair enough.

Like I said, Jordan would make #1 on my list as well...I just don't think the gap is that large between him and other legends of the game.



I wouldn't have brought that up if it was the case, I think last year he said that. I can't think off top of my head where I seen it, I think it was a special ceremony of some sort for Magic and Larry Bird was there??

Oh my god, I have amnesia.

The initial post you were responding to (mine) simply said that when someone comes along who is better, people will recognize it. Meaning from the present time and into the future. Not past players like Magic/Kareem/Wilt etc. Not sure why you got so offended except that perhaps in your rush to minimize Jordan you didn't comprehend what you were reading. Those past players do have cases (illegitimate ones imo, but cases nonetheless) for being better than or as good as Jordan, but no one today does.

[BIZARRO]

agreed. i like this quote from jordan in that same article (whether he believes it or not):

Whether he believes it or not is dead on. :D

That is "Public Mike" in that quote. "Private Mike" (who is WAYYY different) knows he would take Jerry West turn him into Jerry Sichting.

I also love how Mike ALWAYS references Walter Davis and David Thompson. I swear if you gave Mike an all time starting five to play with they'd be in it. :oldlol:

He is too funny with that stuff.

[Phenomenon]

Not sure why you got so offended except that perhaps in your rush to minimize Jordan you didn't comprehend what you were reading. Those past players do have cases (illegitimate ones imo, but cases nonetheless) for being better than or as good as Jordan, but no one today does.

My comprehension skills are just fine, perhaps you should take a look at the post you were replying to...in the first place.

And even if you were only talking about current and future players, it's not exactly clear by your statement...so perhaps you should do a better job typing your posts. I didn't get offended, this is a basketball forum and I replied to something I didn't agree with. I don't get rattled the way you do when someone thinks Jordan's isn't a basketball god or when someone says something positive about Kobe. I'm a hell of a lot more neutral about basketball discussions then you are.

Kettle calling me black.

[guy]

"It's truly an accomplishment, and I take it in a prideful way," Jordan says of his "greatest" title. "But I don't accept it in the sense that I haven't played against the other great players. I've played against some good players and great players in my era, but I don't get to play against the other guys in other eras.

"I think that's unfair to those guys as well as to myself to say I'm the best that ever played because I never played against Wilt Chamberlain. I never played against Jerry West," Jordan says. "I respect the older players and if it wasn't for them, there is no way I could have become the player that I am. I've watched Jerry West. I've watched Walter Davis, David Thompson. They influenced my game. They've got to have a piece of what I've accomplished."


I know there is nothing wrong with saying this, and it actually is the most respectful thing to say. But I highly doubt Michael Jordan actually thinks this. I'm sure he does think he's the greatest. He's just the type of guy that likes to avoid controversy and he is humble.

[SHEED_ gangsta]

Isiah Rider (Jordan's student) was better than MJ if he did'nt mess up his carrer he'd be at an insane level right now

[guy]

how can people say Jordan would be just another swingman today? That's laughable..... and "Kobe is better than MJ"..... are you guys 15 year olds that began watching NBA in 2006? I'll compare Kobe to the 2nd 3 peat MJ because he is not even remotely close to young MJ...... What you youngsters should learn is that Jordan was mentally head and shoulders above any current player.... People were afraid to motivate this man in any way....... Jordan raised his level of play in the playoffs and Finals........ today's inflated scoring stats due to the rule changes must have fooled you guys....... As of today, Jordan is the GOAT....... The Kobe / MJ comparison is too premature....... And the competition is not better today...... Stockton & Payton (defensively) would be today's best PG's...... same with MJ at SG, Pip at SF, Malone at PF, and take your pick on any center from the 90s, young Shaq, Hakeem, Patrick, D. Robison, etc..... I can only imagine what Rodman and Barkley's rebounding numbers would be today.........

I agree. I don't get how Jordan would be just another swingman today, when he accomplished more then all of today's swingmen in an era where the rules weren't catered to swingmen as much. That means that Jordan would probably accomplish more in today's game, i.e. average 40 ppg.

I disagree with some of what you said though. I still would say Lebron would be the best SF over Pippen today, and Duncan the best PF over Malone.

[bokes15]

agreed. i like this quote from jordan in that same article (whether he believes it or not):
That's a great quote, and that man deserves a lot of respect. People in todays era would say, "Wilt played with unathletic white men, I would've averaged 80 a game in this or that era." But the fact of the matter is that it can't be proven. Jordan was the greatest in his era, and I think that hypothetically he would still be the greatest on an individual level in this era.

[bagelred]

SportsCentury is an Emmy award-winning ESPN biography program that reviews the people and athletic events that defined sports in North America throughout the 20th and 21st centuries.

In 1999, ESPN counted down the Top 50 Athletes of the 20th Century, voted on by a panel of sports journalists and observers, premiering a new biography highlighting each top athlete every week throughout the year.

Research for SportsCentury include more than 1,000 interviews, 50,000 photos, and 100,000 newspaper artifacts.



SportsCentury: Top 100 Athletes of the 20th Century

# 1. Michael Jordan
# 2. Babe Ruth
# 3. Muhammad Ali
# 4. Jim Brown
# 5. Wayne Gretzky
# 6. Jesse Owens
# 7. Jim Thorpe
# 8. Willie Mays
# 9. Jack Nicklaus
# 10. Babe Didrikson
# 11. Joe Louis
# 12. Carl Lewis
# 13. Wilt Chamberlain
# 14. Hank Aaron
# 15. Jackie Robinson
# 16. Ted Williams
# 17. Magic Johnson
# 18. Bill Russell
# 19. Martina Navratilova
# 20. Ty Cobb
# 21. Gordie Howe
# 22. Joe DiMaggio
# 23. Jackie Joyner-Kersee
# 24. Sugar Ray Robinson
# 25. Joe Montana


Look at all the great names on this list. And Michael Jordan is #1. Isn't that amazing? So you believe Lebron James, Dwayne Wade, or Kobe Bryant will end up higher than all these people?

Can we end the discussion now?

[mjbulls23]

I disagree with some of what you said though. I still would say Lebron would be the best SF over Pippen today, and Duncan the best PF over Malone.

ya well that's arguable. I give mid 90s Pip the edge slightly over LeBron because of his defense and the fact that he played as a point forward too (although LeBron has better court vision) as well as his experience, especially after winning the first 3 titles with Jordan. As for Malone and Duncan, that is also very close. Would Duncan on those 97 and 98 Jazz teams would have beaten the Bulls? Especially since Duncan plays somewhat more as a center than Malone who was a 6-9 PF, and the fact that Rodman guarded centers more effectively than he did PF's.... especially a PF like Malone who could outmuscle Rodman. IMO Duncan is #2 on the alltime PF list. Malone wasn't as talented as Duncan at first, Malone made himself a great player with hard work. His workout regimens speak for themselves. It's arguable though since both comparisons are so close.

[Psileas]

Generations move ahead, humanity is supposed to be turning smarter as the years go by and yet the same "if the X legend played/existed today, he'd be nothing special" stuff lingers on. Maybe (with Jordan) to a smaller degree than with others like Wilt/Russell, due to the abundance of footage after the 70's, but it does. Based on this logic, of course, the only "lucky" generation of viewers will be the ones before the economic (if not total) destruction of the world/the NBA.
On the other hand, though, I disagree with this:


Michael Jordan will always be the greatest in Basketball
Babe Ruth will always be the greatest in Baseball
Wayne Gretzky will always be the greatest in Hockey
Ali will always be the greatest in Boxing

Apart from the fact that certain people have their objections with some of these choices, things aren't so romantic and simple, anyway. If "X will be forever the GOAT in his sport", well, this sport should better sooner or later disband, because no great player plays to become the #2 GOAT at best. If they were to know the future that easily, they'd pick another sport or move to another league...

[Knoe Itawl]

funniest thing about these threads, which pop up all the time, is:

A - the overwhelming evidence that jordan at least has an equal argument to anybody else for goat being ignored by young posters who didn't really watch him using theories that they've concocted that fly in the face of every top sports analyst of the last decade, as though nobody on the planet is as smart as their 13 year old ass.

B - the bizarre way that it's almost always lakers fan who side against mike - and not kobe fans really, but honest to god lakers fans. magic fans especially. which is fine, but odd. i almost never hear celtics fan toting bird or russell or phili fans on wilt.

anyway. even if you never saw him play a game, if 10 scoring titles, 6 finals mvps, 9 all-d teams, and one title for every season in which he played with another all-star doesn't at least merit consideration against anybody else you can think of, then you're just being obtuse. i wholeheartedly agree with really looking into your selection as deeply as possible and not just riding the popular wave to a conculsion, but writing off the accepted goat because you want to be different is just as stupid as accepting him because you want to fit in.

I've said B for the longest. I'm sure if you were to take a count of the posters that try to side against Mike, it will overwhelmingly be Laker fans. For some, I think they don't want to admit he was better than Magic and others are Kobe fanatics. Whatever the case, Laker fans really seem to have it in for Jordan at a rate much higher than fans of any other team.

[Coolaak]

* Most Three Point Field Goals Attempted in a Game, none made

* 11 by Antoine Walker vs. the Philadelphia 76ers on December 17, 2001

/thread

[Chalkmaze]

Isiah Rider (Jordan's student) was better than MJ if he did'nt mess up his carrer he'd be at an insane level right now

:wtf:

[Psileas]

B - the bizarre way that it's almost always lakers fan who side against mike - and not kobe fans really, but honest to god lakers fans. magic fans especially. which is fine, but odd. i almost never hear celtics fan toting bird or russell or phili fans on wilt.

Well, the main explanations, in short, are:

1) Some are young Kobe fans, with all the consequences.
2) The Lakers are one of the 2 most storied teams ever and 4-5 of the 10 greatest players ever played for them, even though some didn't spend their whole careers there. The Celtics, for all their titles, have "only" 2 such players. The only other team which has a case for more such players than one is Philadelphia, if you consider Dr.J top-10 ever.
3) One of the Celtics' 2 players is Bill Russell, who often gets accolades like "greatest winner ever" or "greatest team player ever", but his scoring and the fact that a good deal of fans don't respect his era get him only modest "greatest player ever" votes.

And an objection:

Quite contrary to some, I don't see more Magic fans calling Magic the GOAT than Bird ones. Go to Youtube videos' comments, Larry Bird tributes' comments, or comments in other sites like rateitall.com and you'll see a lot of very high Bird praise, moreso than Magic, imo.

[Diesel J]

I kinda agree with the "right time right place".

Who knows what will happen if our current SG Stars get a chance to play back 15 years ago, surrounded by a supporting cast such as the Bulls with modernized atheletic move sets.


I disagree.the current SG/SF's in the NBA have inflated stats because you can no longer touch these guys on the perimeter,hence the inflated FT's numbers.Jordon would average 40ppg easily in todays league

[Diesel J]

Not only that, but MJ could win titles without a dominant big man because MJ had the efficiency of a dominant big man. In fact, his effiency was greater than Shaq and Wilt as indicated by him having the highest PER.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/PER_career.html

1 Michael Jordan 27.91
2 Shaquille O'Neal 27.63
3 David Robinson 26.18
4 Wilt Chamberlain* 26.13
5 Bob Pettit* 25.34
6 Tim Duncan 25.17
7 Charles Barkley* 24.63
8 Neil Johnston* 24.62
9 Kareem Abdul-Jabbar* 24.58


Your Top 9 are all big men except MJ. Just goes to show how good he really was.

great post:rockon:

[Diesel J]

I heard numerous times Magic Johnson telling to Larry Bird that he's the greatest player he's ever seen. I guess it's out of respect for their rival, and him picking Jordan is his un-bias opinion. Fair enough.


Here goes one...


Even contemporaneous superstars recognized the unparalleled position of Jordan. Magic Johnson said, "There's Michael Jordan and then there is the rest of us." Larry Bird, following a playoff game where Jordan dropped 63 points on the Boston Celtics in just his second season, appraisal of the young player was: "God disguised as Michael Jordan.

http://www.nba.com/history/players/jordan_bio.html

[Diesel J]

An interesting article with all time greats prasing MJ..

Michael Jordan Retires - Praise from his peers - Monday February 01, 1999 03:52 PM

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/basketball/nba/1999/jordan_retires/news/1999/01/13/jordan_greatest/

[Z3120]

In NBA, how a few tweaks became a scoring extravaganza
Published: MONDAY, MAY 16, 2005

http://www.iht.com/articles/2005/05/15/sports/POINTS.php


The new defensive rules went into effect for the 2001-2 season. Two years later, the league's offense bottomed out, with a .421 field-goal percentage and an average combined score of 176.1 points a game. That was not the result anyone wanted, but in the NBA, evolution is slow.

Coaches needed time to teach zone defense, and players needed time to learn how to play it. They also needed to learn how to attack zones, through better ball and player movement.

NBA teams scoring less than ever, and the Nuggets are the worst offenders
Monday, February 24, 2003


Ten years ago, 25 of the NBA's 27 teams averaged 100 points or more per game. This season, three of the league's 29 teams average 100-plus. The image of athletic stars soaring to the hoop often gives way to the reality of players walking the ball upcourt and clanging shots off the rim.


TOLBERT'S RANT
For all the talk about Detroit's Bad Boys making defense fashionable in the late 1980s, the Houston Rockets also changed the landscape. The Rockets won back-to-back championships largely by slowing down their offense and dumping the ball into Hakeem Olajuwon, who either shot or kicked the ball back out for a 3-pointer.

In other words, Houston's offense seldom involved more than two players. As teams around the league began to mimic the Rockets, by Tolbert's thinking, the game slowed and the number of shots taken dropped.

RISE IN 3-POINT ATTEMPTS

This decrease coincided with a rise in 3-point shot attempts, as more and more teams let fly from long range. As Tolbert put it, the bottom line consists of worse shots, worse shooters, fewer shots and better defense.

ZONE'S EFFECT

The most controversial rule change allowed NBA teams to play zone defense. Colangelo expected the zone to encourage teams to run fastbreaks and involve more players in the halfcourt offense, because defenses more easily could double-team the top threats.

Four Years Later, N.B.A. Sees the Points
May 13, 2005


It was deliberate and it was planned, through a series of often unwelcome rules changes and rules emphases, aided by an influx of new talent on the court and, finally, abetted by coaches who saw no choice but to adapt.

This is the game the N.B.A. wanted when it overhauled its defensive rules four years ago. It just needed several more tweaks and some fine tuning to get it here.

[haterofhaters]

An interesting article with all time greats prasing MJ..

Michael Jordan Retires - Praise from his peers - Monday February 01, 1999 03:52 PM

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/basketball/nba/1999/jordan_retires/news/1999/01/13/jordan_greatest/
wow, some high praise from some great players.

Patrick Ewing
"All I can speak for is people in my era, and from what I've seen, he's definitely the greatest. Unfortunately, I didn't have an opportunity to see Bill, Wilt or Oscar or some of the other guys. But based upon what I've seen, definitely.

Magic Johnson
"He's an icon, a one-man show. He's won one more championship than I did. He'll be rubbing it in my face for eternity. I was hoping he would stay just one more year to help these young NBA players learn how to be a true professional."

Bob Cousy
"He's by far the best since Naismith hung up the basket. He touches every base. He could play three, maybe four positions and maybe even center, too. He has no discernible weakness. The keys to basketball, despite the emphasis on big men, is still speed and quickness. He has them in abundance. When I jumped as high as I could, I got to the bottom of the net. When he jumps as high as he can, he's over the backboard. He's the best, without question."

Elgin Baylor
"Not only do I admire Jordan's accomplishments and his phenomenal basketball ability, but also the way he has conducted himself on and off the court. I don't think there will ever be another player to have the same impact on the game of basketball as Michael Jordan. If you look up the definition of greatness in the dictionary, it will say Michael Jordan."

Shaquille O'Neal
"Michael's definitely the best basketball player of all time. He's the greatest offensive weapon to ever play, and probably the best defensive player we've ever seen."

Bill Walton
"He has no peers but Michael Jordan. He competes against himself. That's the level he's taken it to."

Isiah Thomas
"From all the players I have seen and played against, he's definitely the best player ever. A lot of people like to argue this guy was better or this guy was better. But every player you think of there was some weaknesses and deficiencies in their game. He has the complete package in all facets of his offensive game, and when you break him down defensively, he's also the best defensive player in the game. ... He should be remembered as the greatest of all time."


and that's just a few

[steve]

The thing is no matter how good Michael Jordan was, eventually someone will surpass in the media and game's eyes (and a lot sooner than any of us think) whether or not that player is actually better than Jordan, because in time all things in the past get pushed aside for something new. It could be Lebron, it could be Durant, it could be a number of different players. He won't always be viewed as the greatest to ever play the game by the majority. The only pure thing you can say about Jordan is that he was the best of his generation and even then that will eventually be questioned (although he has the benefit of no other patheon level player playing during his era). Ultimately you have no idea how he would match up with players like Chamberlain, Russell, Jabbar, Erving, Bird, and Magic, it's all just speculation and in a few years (less than a decade I bet) a player is going be coined as the greatest of all time and Jordan will by and large be pushed aside because that's how it always works.

[haterofhaters]

He won't always be viewed as the greatest to ever play the game by the majority. .
maybe 20-30 years from now when the new kids coming up didn't witness him first hand. But even then, there would still be people around to put them in their place. And it will always be generally understood, no matter who passes him statistically, nobody will ever do for the game what Jordan did.

[dnyk1337]

MJ practiced today with the Bobcats and judging from this picture, he's still schooling everybody...

Fixed: Kobe to MJ HAHA!!

http://www.nba.com/media/bobcats/jordan_inside_071218.jpg

[haterofhaters]

Kobe practiced today with the Bobcats and judging from this picture, he's still schooling everybody...

http://www.nba.com/media/bobcats/jordan_inside_071218.jpg
That's Kobe?:oldlol:

[steve]

maybe 20-30 years from now when the new kids coming up didn't witness him first hand. But even then, there would still be people around to put them in their place. And it will always be generally understood, no matter who passes him statistically, nobody will ever do for the game what Jordan did.
There are still a number of people out there who swear by Chamberlain or Russell as the best players of all time (and there are actually a good number of them). The thing is most of the people here grew up witnessing Michael Jordan in his prime (and a vast majority didn't watch Jordan go through his growing pains as a me first type of player in the 80s), how is that sufficient evidence to be the undisputed greatest player of all time. What happens if Lebron all of a sudden wins 3 or 4 titles in a 6 year span in the next decade and possibly averages a triple double in one (or more) of those seasons. Are you saying that he wouldn't be touted as the best player ever. I'm sure people will still mention Jordan, but his backing would get significantly quieter.

[haterofhaters]

There are still a number of people out there who swear by Chamberlain or Russell as the best players of all time (and there are actually a good number of them). The thing is most of the people here grew up witnessing Michael Jordan in his prime (and a vast majority didn't watch Jordan go through his growing pains as a me first type of player in the 80s), how is that sufficient evidence to be the undisputed greatest player of all time. What happens if Lebron all of a sudden wins 3 or 4 titles in a 6 year span in the next decade and possibly averages a triple double in one (or more) of those seasons. Are you saying that he wouldn't be touted as the best player ever. I'm sure people will still mention Jordan, but his backing would get significantly quieter.
THe argument is not about the future. If Lebron or someone else has the credentials, scoring titles, nba titles, league mvp's etc.. to match Jordan, then the discussion can begin. That's not to say that it can never happen, but it hasn't so nobody is better, not lebron, not kobe..

[steve]

THe argument is not about the future. If Lebron or someone else has the credentials, scoring titles, nba titles, league mvp's etc.. to match Jordan, then the discussion can begin. That's not to say that it can never happen, but it hasn't so nobody is better, not lebron, not kobe..
My initial argument wasn't even about the future though, it was mainly stating that you can only judge Jordan against his era and it's impossible to qualify him as the greatest of all time.

[haterofhaters]

My initial argument wasn't even about the future though, it was mainly stating that you can only judge Jordan against his era and it's impossible to qualify him as the greatest of all time.
So basically you're saying that nobody can be called the greatest of all time in any circumstance in any sport unless they could go back in time and play previous eras, and stay in the sport forever and play the current eras?

[inclinerator]

lol at michael jordan being a dwade in todays game.

He played in an era where more physical defense was played and you dont get fouled just cuz u got touched. He is like dwade but faster like d wade drives to the hoop not to get fouled but to make it in. defense of a bowen. vision of a lebron. hops of a carter. winner of a michael.

[steve]

So basically you're saying that nobody can be called the greatest of all time in any circumstance in any sport unless they could go back in time and play previous eras, and stay in the sport forever and play the current eras?
No, I'm saying it will always be open for debate.

[haterofhaters]

No, I'm saying it will always be open for debate.
why debate something without the intention of having a conclusive answer?

[steve]

why debate something without the intention of having a conclusive answer?
Aren't people still debating the existence of God?

[ForceOfNature]

Ricky Davis is already better than him.

at ruining a team's chemistry?

[haterofhaters]

Aren't people still debating the existence of God?
lol. tell me how you're trying to compare faith to basketball. They aren't even in the same league (no pun intended).

[grimreaper1377]

Micheal Jordan was one of the greatest players to play the game but people are going to have to face it sooner or later that they're are players just as good as him if not better.

People are in denial and they will never let anyone be better than Micheal jordan people just wont accept it thats how it is.

People ride off other players before they have even compared them to him because they wont let anyone be better seriously think about it.

woRd OUT

Gosh, never knew that before. :)

[steve]

lol. tell me how you're trying to compare faith to basketball. They aren't even in the same league (no pun intended).
The example is a bit extreme, but there's no definable answer there, but it hasn't stopped people from debating it. It's more imaginative and creative to debate something that doesn't have a definitive answer, at least to me anyway.

[w00terz]

This thread is f*cking moronic. Jordan is quite possibly the GOAT, behind Wilt Chamberlain. Putting Wade in the same sentence as Jordan is a joke.

[w00terz]

I've said this once and I'll say it again....

Jordan = right place, right time

He'd just be another great swingman had he played in today's game. Jordan would be grouped wirth Kobe, Wade, Iverson and McGrady (also maybe LeBron).

Also his stats would not be as inflated due to Zone defense, non-hand checking rule and better athletes in his position and in the league.

No more 50 point games againt the Craig Ehlo's or the Danny Ainge's or the Jeff Malone's of the world. He'll now be facing some real, athletic competition.

Also players like Vince Carter, Jason Richardson, Josh Smith and about 10 others would put Jordan's "AIR" moniker to shame with their dunks compared the MJ's generic ones. He can kiss any Slam Dunk title away because he would NEVER win one in today's league.

:oldlol:

:roll: :roll: :roll:

You seriously need to stop posting. All I see you do is hate. Not to mention the fact that you're a complete jackass. I highlighted the spots where you are completely wrong. You think zone defense and better players would stop Jordan with his fade-a-way J's? Mmmmkay. And again, grouping Wade with Jordan is sig-worthy. Sorry, but Wade blows f*cking ass. Kill yourself, you seriously know nothing about basketball. What are you, 12? Have you even seen Jordan play a game?

[Younggrease]

So basically you're saying that nobody can be called the greatest of all time in any circumstance in any sport unless they could go back in time and play previous eras, and stay in the sport forever and play the current eras?

How the hell can you just flat out call Jordan the GOAT...No one is the clear cut GOAT.. What give Jordan the nod over Kareem, Magic, Bill Russel, Wilt etc... There really isnt much. People need to stop saying Jordan is the GOAT like it is a fact.

[haterofhaters]

The example is a bit extreme, but there's no definable answer there, but it hasn't stopped people from debating it. It's more imaginative and creative to debate something that doesn't have a definitive answer, at least to me anyway.
A debate about God though it may be long and drawn out, comes down to: either you believe he exists or you don't. Plain and simple. A debate about the GOAT comes down to facts, figures and accomplishments. All of which Jordan holds a lot.

[steve]

A debate about God though it may be long and drawn out, comes down to: either you believe he exists or you don't. Plain and simple. A debate about the GOAT comes down to facts, figures and accomplishments. All of which Jordan holds a lot.
The one thing he holds above most other players is scoring average. And did compete against other greats? No. So how exactly then is he the indisputable greatest basketball player of all time?

[Good Old Willy]

A debate about God though it may be long and drawn out, comes down to: either you believe he exists or you don't. Plain and simple. A debate about the GOAT comes down to facts, figures and accomplishments. All of which Jordan holds a lot.

I agree, basketball talk is nice and easy!

Though I suspect you may not have discovered the world of philosophy yet. :)

Epistemology, Transcendental Idealism, Moral philosophy, autonomy of reason, etc. all await you. You will never think that religion to be plain and simple again, at least from an intellectual level!

BTW - If you want your head to hurt try to work yourself up to Kant, something like "A Critique of Pure Reason". Will give you a whole new reason to hate smart people!

[falcon#5]

hahahaha i create quite the argument hear.
MJ IS THE BEST I WAS JUST JOSHING AND YOU CAN BAG ME OR WATEVA I DONT CARE
IM THE NEXT LEBRON look me up oj mayo its me baby

[marcus_v3]

First post so go easy on me:)

I'm half for and half against this thread(I hope that made sense)

Anyway I think this thread adresses the fact that the bball society of today always down-plays the accomplishments of todays established or up and coming stars (e.g: kobe, vince, dwade, A.I., etc.) since they have witnessed the greatness of MJ. It's kinda like living in a high-class hotel for the past 18 years and then ending up living in the slums after your hotel stay is done. Ever since MJ's 2nd retirement in 98 (w/c was so sad that I actually didn't watch an NBA game for almost 2 years) people have always looked for the "next MJ". They've pressured guys like grant hill, Iverson, VC, and Kobe to be the next MJ w/c in the end is almost impossible. Whenever they do something great or amazing (Kobe 81 pts, Iverson leading sixers to NBA finals, etc.) there are always some people who will try and degrade this accomplishments by comparing it to his airness. They always end-up saying, "Well MJ did this..." or "Mike had a tougher time during the..." Which look at the "next great player" and accept him for who he is and not try to compare him, or worse, try to make him into someone who he will never be (Lebron, Melo, Wade).

The thing that I don't appreciate about this thread is how it down-plays Mike's accomplishments. i don't whether your Bush himself but no one (and I mean no one:no: !) has the right to undermine the "Great one's" accomplishments and what he did for the game. Hell!!! his the reason why I fell head over heels in-love with the game.:bowdown:

[EricForman]

What give Jordan the nod over Kareem, Magic, Bill Russel, Wilt etc... There really isnt much. People need to stop saying Jordan is the GOAT like it is a fact.


It may not be fact but it is the overwhelming consensus among fans/commentators/former players/coaches, generally anyone who's watched the game or been around the league for decades.

:)

[dnyk1337]

That's Kobe?:oldlol:

LOL! When I wrote the post, I was also posting on the Laker game thread so I had Kobe on my mind... haha.

[Psileas]

A debate about the GOAT comes down to facts, figures and accomplishments. All of which Jordan holds a lot.

A debate about the GOAT comes down to how people view these facts. Bill Russell has 11 titles. Nobody among the GOAT candidates comes even close. He also has 5 MVP's, statistic titles and is widely considered as the GOAT defender. But not many people view his accomplishments in accordance with today's era. As a result, Russell


why debate something without the intention of having a conclusive answer?

The thing isn't whether you have the intention to get a conclusive answer, but whether there is such a thing and whether this is accepted by all people whose opinions matter. And for most of these debates, there isn't. The only way you can be called the GOAT without much of a debate is to dominate like nobody else in history in just about any statistical category and dominate like nobody else in team titles of your era and do this with the toughest individual and team competition (of course, finding who had the better competition is a tough task by itself). As long as such a thing didn't happen (and is very unlikely to ever happen) in basketball, there will always be room for debate, at least among people who know the sport.

[dejordan]

And an objection:

Quite contrary to some, I don't see more Magic fans calling Magic the GOAT than Bird ones. Go to Youtube videos' comments, Larry Bird tributes' comments, or comments in other sites like rateitall.com and you'll see a lot of very high Bird praise, moreso than Magic, imo.
that's interesting because i grew up in new england, and at this point i know literally NO ONE from home who believes that bird is better than jordan. not even my older relatives who dogged me for being a jordan fan in the 80s and told me he wasn't a good enough teammate to ever be as good bird. they've all swung around. do they think bird's better than magic? well yeah. their new england homers. i wonder if the youtube market is young enough that they have seen some jordan weakenesses (particularly with the wiz) but only ever seen bird highlight film? could be racially motivated too, i guess. i was more speaking from what i had seen here.

the only names i've heard mentioned ahead of jordan on this board are magic (by several lakers fans), wilt (by you), russell (by one very young poster trying his damnedest to run down michael), bird (by one poster who i believe had celtics or bird in his user name), kobe (by a few people - possibly dummy accounts held by mark jackson and that girl from espn), shaq (one or two), and lebron, but of them all magic is the name i've heard the most from posters i take seriously. oh, and for the record (again), i have no issue whatsoever with people finding another goat, be it magic, larry, wilt, or kobe, as long as they've got good rationale behind the pick.

[lil_watz]

I think the one thing we are forgetting is the defense that Jordan played. How many people in the league today play defense the way Jordan did and can still put up large numbers? One person, Marion, and we can all agree that he is no Jordan(I'm not bashing Marion, I think he is great). And what is all this crap about being in the right place at the right time? Every era is different in the way the game is played. You say it is harder to play today and that makes the likes of Kobe and Wade better. How is it harder? Jordan played against Magic, Bird, Barkley, Stockton, Malone and many other great players who could teach some people today a few lessons. People make the case that Bird and Magic are the best players but in the next breath say that Jordan didn't play against anyone. My dad is a baby boomer and will tell you today that Jordan is the best player to grace the hardwood and in my twenty two years I cannot deny it. Jordan played an all around game, he rebounded the ball, passed the ball, blocked shots, stole passes and picked pockets, he took the ball into the paint and wasn't afraid of the Ewings, he crossed up the gaurds and floated the ball over the forwards. If you can find another player who does all of that, day in and day out while keeping his teammates involved then you might have a case for an arguement.

[Psileas]

I think the one thing we are forgetting is the defense that Jordan played. How many people in the league today play defense the way Jordan did and can still put up large numbers? One person, Marion, and we can all agree that he is no Jordan(I'm not bashing Marion, I think he is great). And what is all this crap about being in the right place at the right time? Every era is different in the way the game is played. You say it is harder to play today and that makes the likes of Kobe and Wade better. How is it harder? Jordan played against Magic, Bird, Barkley, Stockton, Malone and many other great players who could teach some people today a few lessons. People make the case that Bird and Magic are the best players but in the next breath say that Jordan didn't play against anyone. My dad is a baby boomer and will tell you today that Jordan is the best player to grace the hardwood and in my twenty two years I cannot deny it. Jordan played an all around game, he rebounded the ball, passed the ball, blocked shots, stole passes and picked pockets, he took the ball into the paint and wasn't afraid of the Ewings, he crossed up the gaurds and floated the ball over the forwards. If you can find another player who does all of that, day in and day out while keeping his teammates involved then you might have a case for an arguement.

Well, here are some of these Larry Bird comments I had found. To be honest, I thought Magic had a somewhat smaller "GOAT voters" core in the 1st link. Still, Bird got high praises and, as you'll see, he's the most talked about player after Jordan:

http://www.rateitall.com/i-20833-larry-bird.aspx

Another old but good link:

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/basketball/nba/1998/bird/yourturn/

I'll tell you this though: In Europe, Magic, instead of Wilt is the next most popular choice for GOAT after Jordan. The reason is

1) Europe has seen even less footage from prior to Magic's era. Magic and Bird first made NBA basketball popular in Europe. They looked at the Showtime Lakers and Bird's Celtics at awe. They didn't have the chance to evaluate older teams, however.
2) Many Europeans respect the prior to 80's years even less than their US peers and obviously have a shallower knowledge of American basketball (I've even seen known journalists using the "6-7 center" argument for the 60's).
3) Europe favors the team game more and Magic used to be a "pure basketball" journalists' dream player.

[kgisbigticket]

This thread is f*cking moronic. Jordan is quite possibly the GOAT, behind Wilt Chamberlain. Putting Wade in the same sentence as Jordan is a joke.

Wilt wasn't even better than Shaq. MJ has more 50+, 40+, 30+ games than anyone in history in the PLAYOFFS. He also has the most finals mvp's and the only player to average 30+ in the season, playoffs and finals. No one compares to him.

[Psileas]

Wilt wasn't even better than Shaq. MJ has more 50+, 40+, 30+ games than anyone in history in the PLAYOFFS. He also has the most finals mvp's and the only player to average 30+ in the season, playoffs and finals. No one compares to him.

Wilt was better than Shaq all things considered (that's for another topic), x-point playoff records are not the only ones that count (Wilt and Russell own the rebounding records and, practically, the blocked shots ones too, Magic holds the assist and triple-doubles records) and Bill Russell would have 7-8 Finals' MVP's had they existed back then.

[bagelred]

This deserves a second posting, since people ignored the obvious.



SportsCentury is an Emmy award-winning ESPN biography program that reviews the people and athletic events that defined sports in North America throughout the 20th and 21st centuries.

In 1999, ESPN counted down the Top 50 Athletes of the 20th Century, voted on by a panel of sports journalists and observers, premiering a new biography highlighting each top athlete every week throughout the year.

Research for SportsCentury include more than 1,000 interviews, 50,000 photos, and 100,000 newspaper artifacts.



SportsCentury: Top 100 Athletes of the 20th Century

# 1. Michael Jordan
# 2. Babe Ruth
# 3. Muhammad Ali
# 4. Jim Brown
# 5. Wayne Gretzky
# 6. Jesse Owens
# 7. Jim Thorpe
# 8. Willie Mays
# 9. Jack Nicklaus
# 10. Babe Didrikson
# 11. Joe Louis
# 12. Carl Lewis
# 13. Wilt Chamberlain
# 14. Hank Aaron
# 15. Jackie Robinson
# 16. Ted Williams
# 17. Magic Johnson
# 18. Bill Russell
# 19. Martina Navratilova
# 20. Ty Cobb
# 21. Gordie Howe
# 22. Joe DiMaggio
# 23. Jackie Joyner-Kersee
# 24. Sugar Ray Robinson
# 25. Joe Montana


Close thread.

[kgisbigticket]

Wilt was better than Shaq all things considered (that's for another topic), x-point playoff records are not the only ones that count (Wilt and Russell own the rebounding records and, practically, the blocked shots ones too, Magic holds the assist and triple-doubles records) and Bill Russell would have 7-8 Finals' MVP's had they existed back then.

It doesn't matter if Russell would have had 7-8 finals mvp's, the fact remains is that he doesn't. And when he played their were only 2 playoff rounds, which makes it quite easy to win titles.

Who cares about rebound records? What did they do in the finals? Wilt averaged 11.7 ppg in the finals one year and never averaged 30 ppg in any finals. That's pathetic for a guy whose main focus was scoring in a fast paced era.

Shaq has 3 finals MVP's and is 3rd all time in finals ppg. Wilt isn't as good nor does he care when it matters most.

[Psileas]

It doesn't matter if Russell would have had 7-8 finals mvp's, the fact remains is that he doesn't.

That's a bad excuse, really. Either if they existed or not, the fact remains that Russell was the MVP in more Finals' series than any player in history.


And when he played their were only 2 playoff rounds, which makes it quite easy to win titles.

Whether it was easy or not to win titles, ask his opponents. :)
Actually, in most of these years, there were not 2 rounds, but 3. However, the team with the best record in the conference got a free pass to the Conference Finals up to 1966. And, really, what's the big deal with the absence of the playoff 1st round? Do you think Russell and the Celtics would for some reason fall victim of big-time upsets if there esixted 3 or 4 rounds instead of 2 or 3?


Who cares about rebound records?

Anyone who knows that basketball is not only about shooting and scoring, I guess...


Wilt averaged 11.7 ppg in the finals one year and never averaged 30 ppg in any finals. That's pathetic for a guy whose main focus was scoring in a fast paced era.

How obvious it is that you come from RealGM. :D It's the only place I've seen people use this number. Too bad they convincingly ignore the whole picture (willingly, nonetheless), which says that Wilt averaged 11.7 ppg, 25.0 rpg, likely dissed 3-4 apg, blocked numerous shots and shot at a high FG percentage.
As for the 30 ppg finals, it's once again a deceiving thing. He didn't do so, because in his high scoring years he couldn't get past the Celtics and go to the NBA Finals. He did however average 30+ ppg against the eventual champions in multiple playoff series, anyway, one round before the Finals. It's no wonder that once Wilt's team moved in west, they reached to the 1964 NBA Finals and Wilt averaged 29.2 pts and 27.6 rebs there. If they were already in west for more years, it's very likely that Wilt would have multiple 30+ ppg Finals' series.


Shaq has 3 finals MVP's and is 3rd all time in finals ppg. Wilt isn't as good nor does he care when it matters most.

Again, there's much more than Finals' MVP's and ppg in the Finals...And Shaq is at 28.8 ppg now, so he's lower than #3 (Jerry West is No3, at 30.5 ppg). At least, he's lucky he won't play in more Finals' games and see his numbers go down even more. :)

[kgisbigticket]

Whether it was easy or not to win titles, ask his opponents.
Actually, in most of these years, there were not 2 rounds, but 3. However, the team with the best record in the conference got a free pass to the Conference Finals up to 1966. And, really, what's the big deal with the absence of the playoff 1st round? Do you think Russell and the Celtics would for some reason fall victim of big-time upsets if there esixted 3 or 4 rounds instead of 2 or 3?

If 4 rounds existed he would have maybe won 6 titles. He got a break by having a series off while the other team had to battle out the first round. Of course it was easy for him to win titles.

Rebounds were easy in the 60's because guys were only 6'5" and couldn't jump. Also don't forget the pace factor and the fact guys were allowed to play 47 mpg.

[Psileas]

If 4 rounds existed he would have maybe won 6 titles. He got a break by having a series off while the other team had to battle out the first round. Of course it was easy for him to win titles.

If you get more than a few days or rest, it's equally easy for your team to get cold and lose a portion of its physique. Read playoff series previews and reviews between teams which got a multiple-day rest and teams which didn't. You'll see that there's always that possibility.
BTW, Russell won his last 2 titles in 3 series' leagues, anyway, while never having a full home court advantage.


Rebounds were easy in the 60's because guys were only 6'5" and couldn't jump. Also don't forget the pace factor and the fact guys were allowed to play 47 mpg.

Man, you had some of the best posters in RealGM educate people as to what a big lie it is that centers were 6'5, yet you come to another board and start all over again with this lie. The "6'5 center" crap has been busted multiple times both here and there. As for the 47 mpg guys, they weren't multiple, either. Only Wilt, Russell (at times) and Oscar would get here. It boosted their numbers somewhat, but deflated their energy, as well.
I'll give you pace factor for rebounding, but, if you extend it to more stats, it appeals to a degree to any era before the last 5-10 years.

[Make It Rain]

Funny how most of the anti-Jordan crowd are Laker/Kobe fans. Let it go Kobe fans. Kobe is nowhere near Jordan in any aspect of basketball, physically or mentally. No current player is close. If someone wants to say, Magic, Wilt, Russell, or even Shaq was better than Jordan. I can accept that opinion. But to say guys like Wade and Kobe are better than him? That's gotta be a joke. Kobe is overrated.

[dejordan]

no need to argue with psileas about wilt. his reasons for picking the dipper are sound even if you don't necessarily agree with the conclusion.

[Make It Rain]

no need to argue with psileas about wilt. his reasons for picking the dipper are sound even if you don't necessarily agree with the conclusion.
There are a lot of valid cases for past legends. But no valid cases for today's current players.

[dejordan]

There are a lot of valid cases for past legends. But no valid cases for today's current players.
personally i agree with you. a shaq or duncan fanatic might feel like he's got an argument though.

[Make It Rain]

personally i agree with you. a shaq or duncan fanatic might feel like he's got an argument though.
I'd tolerate an argument about a Prime Shaq or a Prime Duncan, but neither are in their primes right now.

Also, what people underrate about Jordan is how long his prime was. It was insanely long. And even when he wasn't in his prime anymore, he was still the best.

[Younggrease]

It may not be fact but it is the overwhelming consensus among fans/commentators/former players/coaches, generally anyone who's watched the game or been around the league for decades.

:)

the consensus among the majority of players in the nba and former players and coaches is that Kobe is the best in the world...But no one hear recognizes that...So it is ok to recognize them if you agree but if you dont agree those same people are idiots??

[Younggrease]

Funny how most of the anti-Jordan crowd are Laker/Kobe fans. Let it go Kobe fans. Kobe is nowhere near Jordan in any aspect of basketball, physically or mentally. No current player is close. If someone wants to say, Magic, Wilt, Russell, or even Shaq was better than Jordan. I can accept that opinion. But to say guys like Wade and Kobe are better than him? That's gotta be a joke. Kobe is overrated.

that is all that was said..stop reaching troll

[Make It Rain]

that is all that was said..stop reaching troll
You're the troll. Lemme guess a Kobe fan? Read through the thread 99% of the Jordan hate is by Kobe fans.

[Diesel J]

when talking about the GOAT,it should a combination of team success + personal individual feats/accomplishments.When taking these into consideration along with clutch factor,Jordan basically beats them all.




I can't find the the exact quote right now but Hubie once said ssomething along the lines of "Wilt was the most dominant offensive force ever and Russell was the most dominant defensive force ever but noone was as equally dominant on both ends as Jordan".

I hope someone can find the link to that Hubie quote above

[DieHardBullsFan]

Kevin Martin too.


Thabo Sefolosha is better than MJ too :rolleyes:

[Smokee]

Micheal Jordan was one of the greatest players to play the game but people are going to have to face it sooner or later that they're are players just as good as him if not better.

People are in denial and they will never let anyone be better than Micheal jordan people just wont accept it thats how it is.

People ride off other players before they have even compared them to him because they wont let anyone be better seriously think about it.

woRd OUT



MJ was the perfect bball player. if you could customize and create the perfect bball guard it would be MJ, really no flaws in his game and probably more will to win than any athlete in the history of sports.

[BIZARRO]

when talking about the GOAT,it should a combination of team success + personal individual feats/accomplishments.When taking these into consideration along with clutch factor,Jordan basically beats them all.

Hubie brown sums it all up here...

Hubie Brown on Jordan



I can't find the the exact quote right now but Hubie once said ssomething along the lines of "Wilt was the most dominant offensive force ever and Russell was the most dominant defensive force ever but noone was as equally dominant on both ends as Jordan".

I hope someone can find the link to that Hubie quote above


Thank you so much for that. Nice work.

I love Hubie; the way he phrases things...like "game attendance".

I can hear him saying it. Too funny. :oldlol:

[BBallBeatwriter]

What bothers me the most about MJ conversations, and we've all been part of them, is when he is called G.O.A.T. In my humble opinion, that from a realistic and humble perspective, there is absolutley no such thing as "the greatest of all time for anything. John Coltrane wasn't the greatest tenor man ever just like Richard Pryor wasn't the greatest stand-up comic ever. Saying there is a greatest of anything is like a father calling one of his children "favorite." One of his kids may excel at one thing, but each child has thier own respective unique quality. Certainly Jordan was a very accomplished player, and there's no doubt he earned his plave in the annals of NBA time. However, if we weren't around to see the 60's and just how relevant Oscar or Russell were to thier teams and there era, and how relevant there era was to them, then we can't say Jordan was better than them. You have to take into account the relvence of Jordan's era and vice versa. Part of his lore was what he did for the sport. He made the game more popular amongst white suburban youth, skyrocketed the shoe market and made the NBA a brand name. You can't say he's the greatest when you also have to take into account his postion. He may have been the best SG, but that doesn't make him the best player ever. Kobe is just as lethal a scorer today as MJ was back then. If you think about all the rule-changes etc. that it easier for him to score, then take tem away, you can obviously see that helped him. Maybe I'm wrong, but it's just an opinion.

[kgisbigticket]

What bothers me the most about MJ conversations, and we've all been part of them, is when he is called G.O.A.T. In my humble opinion, that from a realistic and humble perspective, there is absolutley no such thing as "the greatest of all time for anything. John Coltrane wasn't the greatest tenor man ever just like Richard Pryor wasn't the greatest stand-up comic ever. Saying there is a greatest of anything is like a father calling one of his children "favorite." One of his kids may excel at one thing, but each child has thier own respective unique quality. Certainly Jordan was a very accomplished player, and there's no doubt he earned his plave in the annals of NBA time. However, if we weren't around to see the 60's and just how relevant Oscar or Russell were to thier teams and there era, and how relevant there era was to them, then we can't say Jordan was better than them. You have to take into account the relvence of Jordan's era and vice versa. Part of his lore was what he did for the sport. He made the game more popular amongst white suburban youth, skyrocketed the shoe market and made the NBA a brand name. You can't say he's the greatest when you also have to take into account his postion. He may have been the best SG, but that doesn't make him the best player ever. Kobe is just as lethal a scorer today as MJ was back then. If you think about all the rule-changes etc. that it easier for him to score, then take tem away, you can obviously see that helped him. Maybe I'm wrong, but it's just an opinion.

This has already been discussed.
MJ averages 30 ppg in the season, playoffs and finals. No one is as good as him especially scoring. He has 10 scoring titles to show.

[mjbulls23]

the consensus among the majority of players in the nba and former players and coaches is that Kobe is the best in the world...But no one hear recognizes that...So it is ok to recognize them if you agree but if you dont agree those same people are idiots??



yes, the best player today does not necessarily mean the best player ever

[dawsey6]

"Unless they change the dimensions of the game, there will be a player far greater than me." -Michael Jordan, from The Love of the Game, My Story

I believe this to be true, but as of now, he's unmatched in greatness as a basketball player.

[Knoe Itawl]

I just have one question for Kobe supporters who say stuff like "Kobe is just as good, or better a scorer".

Why do you not take into account:

A. Efficiency, fg% and such? Kobe has never shot 50% for a season, while Jordan was a CAREER 50% shooter (yes even including the Washington years). He shot 53% the year he scored 35ppg.

B. The FACT that Kobe has NEVER faced a team like the Detroit Pistons or 90s Knicks teams. Teams that would PUNISH you for driving the lane. Go back and look at some of the footage from Jordan vs. those teams and then point out to me where Kobe's EVER been through anything like it?

C. PLAYOFFS vs. REGULAR SEASON. If you compare their scoring from the playoffs it isn't even CLOSE. Kobe has yet to show that he can be anywhere near the dominant scorer Jordan was in the post season. And as any knowledgeable basketball fan should know, it's a lot harder to score in the post season against comp like the 90s Knicks then it is to score against the awful Toronto Raptors in the regular season.

The playoffs are the time where the comp is harder, the pressure is greater and where real NBA legends are made. Jordan actually RAISED his scoring in the playoffs. Please show me examples of Kobe's scoring brilliance in the playoffs vs. Jordan's. You can't.

So given all of that, I don't get the "Kobe is as good a scorer as Jordan" stuff. It's really ignorant.

[dawsey6]

Here's a more direct quote from the book a mentioned before:


Somewhere there is a little kid working to enhance what we've done. It may take awhile, but someone will come along who approaches the game the way I did. He won't skip steps. He won't be afraid. He will learn from my example, just as I learned from others. He will master the fundamentals. Maybe he will take off from the free-throw line and do a 360 in midair. Why not? No one thought they would see a 6-foot-9 point guard or a 7-foot-7 center. But here we are. There are now more 6-foot-10 perimeter players than at any time in history. Magic would have been a center 30 years ago. Evolution knows no bounds. Unless they change the height of the basket or otherwise alter the dimensions of the game, there will be a player much greater than me.

[dawsey6]

What bothers me the most about MJ conversations, and we've all been part of them, is when he is called G.O.A.T. In my humble opinion, that from a realistic and humble perspective, there is absolutley no such thing as "the greatest of all time for anything. John Coltrane wasn't the greatest tenor man ever just like Richard Pryor wasn't the greatest stand-up comic ever. Saying there is a greatest of anything is like a father calling one of his children "favorite." One of his kids may excel at one thing, but each child has thier own respective unique quality. Certainly Jordan was a very accomplished player, and there's no doubt he earned his plave in the annals of NBA time. However, if we weren't around to see the 60's and just how relevant Oscar or Russell were to thier teams and there era, and how relevant there era was to them, then we can't say Jordan was better than them. You have to take into account the relvence of Jordan's era and vice versa. Part of his lore was what he did for the sport. He made the game more popular amongst white suburban youth, skyrocketed the shoe market and made the NBA a brand name. You can't say he's the greatest when you also have to take into account his postion. He may have been the best SG, but that doesn't make him the best player ever. Kobe is just as lethal a scorer today as MJ was back then. If you think about all the rule-changes etc. that it easier for him to score, then take tem away, you can obviously see that helped him. Maybe I'm wrong, but it's just an opinion.

Sorry, man. That's not the same. Your kid is your fresh and blood. If you truely love your children, you have no favorite. Period. Trane and MJ are people who we watch for entertainment, and as big fans, we analyse. Huge difference. BTW, ever heard Bird on the tenor? Just picked one up, didn't warm up on it or anything, did one session with Miles...crazy!

[Allstar24]

MJ fans are so insecure :oldlol: It's quite amusing and pathetic at the same time.

[dhenk]

Well, I give a sh*t about stats.

And I won

[BIZARRO]

[QUOTE=dhenk]Well, I give a sh*t about stats.

And I won

[bagelred]

ESPN SportsCentury: Top 100 Athletes of the 20th Century

# 1. Michael Jordan
# 2. Babe Ruth
# 3. Muhammad Ali
# 4. Jim Brown
# 5. Wayne Gretzky
# 6. Jesse Owens
# 7. Jim Thorpe
# 8. Willie Mays
# 9. Jack Nicklaus
# 10. Babe Didrikson
# 11. Joe Louis
# 12. Carl Lewis
# 13. Wilt Chamberlain
# 14. Hank Aaron
# 15. Jackie Robinson
# 16. Ted Williams
# 17. Magic Johnson
# 18. Bill Russell
# 19. Martina Navratilova
# 20. Ty Cobb
# 21. Gordie Howe
# 22. Joe DiMaggio
# 23. Jackie Joyner-Kersee
# 24. Sugar Ray Robinson
# 25. Joe Montana

Close thread.

[Diesel J]

^^up

[Z3120]

Famous story about how Bird, Magic, and MJ all stayed up all night in Barcelona one night and they talked about about who's the greatest.

After going back and forth, Bird stopped the conversation and said, "Magic you were great, I was great, but MJ was the greatest." The way Bird put it, Magic and him conceded.


I'll try to find a link, but it's a pretty famous story.

At the 2:40 mark, someone gives notice of that story you're talking about.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=nP-Rm2atzU0

[BIZARRO]

At the 2:40 mark, someone gives notice of that story you're talking about.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=nP-Rm2atzU0



Thanks man. :)

I would also like to say, that although I have never been a big fan of Isiah as a guy, he is supremely complimentary to Mike in this video.

I think that shows something on his part. :applause:

[Diesel J]

^^^thanks for that video link!

[Diesel J]

An interesting article with all time greats prasing MJ..

Michael Jordan Retires - Praise from his peers - Monday February 01, 1999 03:52 PM

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/basketball/nba/1999/jordan_retires/news/1999/01/13/jordan_greatest/

..by the way,I heard that Red Aurebach said that Jordan was the best he ever saw play.Is this true?

[Rojogaqu11]

SportsCentury: Top 100 Athletes of the 20th Century

# 1. Michael Jordan
# 2. Babe Ruth
# 3. Muhammad Ali
# 4. Jim Brown
# 5. Wayne Gretzky
# 6. Jesse Owens
# 7. Jim Thorpe
# 8. Willie Mays
# 9. Jack Nicklaus
# 10. Babe Didrikson
# 11. Joe Louis
# 12. Carl Lewis
# 13. Wilt Chamberlain
# 14. Hank Aaron
# 15. Jackie Robinson
# 16. Ted Williams
# 17. Magic Johnson
# 18. Bill Russell
# 19. Martina Navratilova
# 20. Ty Cobb
# 21. Gordie Howe
# 22. Joe DiMaggio
# 23. Jackie Joyner-Kersee
# 24. Sugar Ray Robinson
# 25. Joe Montana

Great list, but no Pele?
He owns everyone there. Several lists have him at 1.
I guess its just the US known athletes.

[Psileas]

I think Pele was somewhere below #25. Maybe at around 40. The poll includes only American athletes and I guess is hugely biased towards USA ones. This doesn't make it worse than plenty of non-American polls, though: Take European polls, and you'll see them flooded with soccer players. NFL? Baseball? Hockey? All of them will be lucky to have like 3-5 athletes in the top-50 or top-100. The only American athletes who are widely recognised outside America are NBA players and track/field stars. And if the poll is made in England, you'll even see cricket and snooker legends ranked above basketball ones...

[brantonli]

I've said this once and I'll say it again....

Jordan = right place, right time

He'd just be another great swingman had he played in today's game. Jordan would be grouped wirth Kobe, Wade, Iverson and McGrady (also maybe LeBron).

Also his stats would not be as inflated due to Zone defense, non-hand checking rule and better athletes in his position and in the league.

No more 50 point games againt the Craig Ehlo's or the Danny Ainge's or the Jeff Malone's of the world. He'll now be facing some real, athletic competition.

Also players like Vince Carter, Jason Richardson, Josh Smith and about 10 others would put Jordan's "AIR" moniker to shame with their dunks compared the MJ's generic ones. He can kiss any Slam Dunk title away because he would NEVER win one in today's league.

:oldlol:

I was too young when Jordan was around and kicking ass, but I am 100% sure that Michael Jordan, if he played in 2008, would NOT be grouped with the likes of McGrady and Carter, that I have absolutely no doubt.

[Manute for Ever!]

I was too young when Jordan was around and kicking ass, but I am 100% sure that Michael Jordan, if he played in 2008, would NOT be grouped with the likes of McGrady and Carter, that I have absolutely no doubt.

I am old enough and I can assure you that you are 100% correct.

[Diesel J]

..by the way,I heard that Red Aurebach said that Jordan was the best he ever saw play.Is this true?

anyone know anything about this?

[dejordan]

anyone know anything about this?
i seem to remember this too, but i can't find footage of it. maybe on his centerstage interview? jerry west says so unequivocally if you're looking to quote a great gm. so does pat riley. and bob cousy. larry bird. magic johnson. isiah thomas. grant hill. dominique wilkins. charles barkley. reggie miller. kenny smith. hubie brown. tracy mcgrady. allen iverson. shaquille oneal. bob knight. dean smith. actually pretty much every player, coach, or gm i've ever heard questioned on it since jordan hit his peak has said he was the best except big o (who said big o was the best), wilt (who said wilt was the best), russell (who said there's about 6 possibilities but wouldn't commit to one), and mark jackson who said it was kobe.

not that we should believe what experts have to say. half the time they are full of it, and we all know that the league extorts them to lie on jordan's behalf. duh.

[clayton]

There are no "IFs". What happened is what happened. Jordan, 6 rings, Finals MVP on all of them. Made the Bulls franchise Top 10 Teams of All Time list. :cheers:

To be clear, Jordan created the Chicago Bulls! XD

[Diesel J]

i seem to remember this too, but i can't find footage of it. maybe on his centerstage interview? jerry west says so unequivocally if you're looking to quote a great gm. so does pat riley. and bob cousy. larry bird. magic johnson. isiah thomas. grant hill. dominique wilkins. charles barkley. reggie miller. kenny smith. hubie brown. tracy mcgrady. allen iverson. shaquille oneal. bob knight. dean smith. actually pretty much every player, coach, or gm i've ever heard questioned on it since jordan hit his peak has said he was the best except big o (who said big o was the best), wilt (who said wilt was the best), russell (who said there's about 6 possibilities but wouldn't commit to one), and mark jackson who said it was kobe.


yeah,I posted an article a few pages back where Cousy says he's the best player he ever saw.

[niko]

You should learn to spell correctly anyone you are trying to denigrate.

That is all.

[Diesel J]

I found the article I was talking about earlier in this thread


Bill Russell won five MVP awards, Kareem Abdul-Jabbar won six, but the element of Jordan's game which separates him from all the rest is his attendance. Michael played 13 years, playing all 82 games eight times. Ten times Jordan played 80 or more games, one year he only played 18 games due to a broken foot, one year he played only 17 games after coming back from baseball, and there's only one other year he played 78 games. That competitive fire and desire to play and desire to win is second to none. Michael showed up to give you 30 or more points on a nightly basis, with the great shooting percentages, with the rebounding, with the assists and never sacrificed anything on the other end of the floor, where he gave you nine years of First Team All-Defense. There's nobody that's done that. When they compare him for competitiveness, the only guy in the same breath with Jordan is Bill Russell. Russell backed up his game with 11 championships as the heart and soul of the Boston Celtics. Russell's rebounding, shot-blocking and total defensive dominance from the foul line down is unmatched. But nobody in the history of the game has dominated at both ends of the floor like Michael Jordan. Therein lies the difference.

http://www.nba.com/jordan/hubieonjordan.html

[KINGD]

Kobe>MJ. anyone with eyes can see this.

[Da_Realist]

When a player who's actually better shows up, people will recognize it. End of discussion.

Truer words have never been spoken

[Timmy D for MVP]

When a player who's actually better shows up, people will recognize it. End of discussion.

Agreed.

[c_az_a]

Can someone find poseidon brain.


I've said this once and I'll say it again....

Jordan = right place, right time

He'd just be another great swingman had he played in today's game. Jordan would be grouped wirth Kobe, Wade, Iverson and McGrady (also maybe LeBron).

Also his stats would not be as inflated due to Zone defense, non-hand checking rule and better athletes in his position and in the league.

No more 50 point games againt the Craig Ehlo's or the Danny Ainge's or the Jeff Malone's of the world. He'll now be facing some real, athletic competition.

Also players like Vince Carter, Jason Richardson, Josh Smith and about 10 others would put Jordan's "AIR" moniker to shame with their dunks compared the MJ's generic ones. He can kiss any Slam Dunk title away because he would NEVER win one in today's league.

:oldlol:

[mjbulls23]

Can someone find poseidon brain.

am I the only one thinking that Poseidon = KINGD? :confusedshrug:

[KINGD]

Don't be silly. Having watched over 200+ of Kobe's and MJ's game I can say, without a doubt, Kobe is superior.Yeah.

[Da_Realist]

The problem with these little kids is that they think they know everything at like 12 or so instead of realizing that maybe they should learn some more before they try to talk to people who have been watching/analyzing the game for a long long time and have SEEN Jordan's career AND Kobe/LeBron/Wade, etc.

Amen

[Lebron23]

am I the only one thinking that Poseidon = KINGD? :confusedshrug:



I think Poseidon is the older brother of KINGD :confusedshrug:

[KINGD]

I know it must be difficult. Just accept it. No wonder MJ fanboys hate on Kobe. It ain't no conicidence.Yeah.

[Kobe24]

Only thing Poseidon said right is that they would put his air moniker to shame. I doubt Jordan would win a dunk contest in todays game.

[mjbulls23]

I know it must be difficult. Just accept it. No wonder MJ fanboys hate on Kobe. It ain't no conicidence.Yeah.

Kobe's actually my favorite player today. I find it funny that you call every one who isn't a Kobe nut hugger like yourself a hater

[KINGD]

Kobe's actually my favorite player today. I find it funny that you call every one who isn't a Kobe nut hugger like yourself a hater


" Kobe nut-hugger"? No, I Just appreciate greatness. Typical MJ fan.:rolleyes:

[mjbulls23]

" Kobe nut-hugger"? No, I Just appreciate greatness. Typical MJ fan.:rolleyes:

you make sound like an MJ fan can't be a Kobe fan too :oldlol:

[KINGD]

you make sound like an MJ fan can't be a Kobe fan too :oldlol:

Not really. I'm a fan of both.:pimp:

[mjbulls23]

Not really. I'm a fan of both.:pimp:

really? :oldlol: :hammerhead:

ok then.


serious question here.


what makes you believe Kobe is greater than MJ was? I just want to know the other side of the story.

[KINGD]

really? :oldlol: :hammerhead:

ok then.


serious question here.


what makes you believe Kobe is greater than MJ was? I just want to know the other side of the story.

Kobe did everything as well as MJ or better. Peremeter D, mid-range shooting, ball-handling, passing, clutchness etc. Only thing Mike did better then Kobe was block shots.:pimp: Kobe is also a considerably better 3 point shooter.

[mjbulls23]

Kobe did everything as well as MJ or better. Peremeter D, mid-range shooting, ball-handling, passing, clutchness etc. Only thing Mike did better then Kobe was block shots.:pimp: Kobe is also a considerably better 3 point shooter.


oh....


so you mean he's better skilled....

even though I disagree with it to some extent, better skilled does not necessarily mean he's greater. if it was then VC & Tracy would still be top 5 playres today.... but at least that is somewhat more of a respectable argument than to just flat out say "Kobe > MJ"


Kobe being a better midrange shooter can go either way, yes he might be more skilled as a mid range shooter, but MJ really, and I mean REALLY, improved his shot over the years... as a rookie he was not so good of a shooter....

but I disagree with you on saying Kobe is more clutch than MJ. To me, clutch is not just a last second shot (that would be clutch shooter ala Reggie), but also coming up with the big plays down the stretch, getting a key defensive stop, or just stepping up when the team needs it..

again, Kobe is a great clutch player, but not as clutch as MJ to me seeing that it was routine for MJ.. He was known to raise his game in the playoffs and Finals... and Kobe has raised his level of play before too, especially in the 01 playoffs, but he hasn't done enough to show me he is a more clutch player than MJ was especially in the postseason...

don't get clutch shooter and player mixed up...

Reggie is a clutch shooter, MJ is a clutch player...

but then again, that's just my opinion :ohwell:

[dejordan]

Kobe did everything as well as MJ or better. Peremeter D, mid-range shooting, ball-handling, passing, clutchness etc. Only thing Mike did better then Kobe was block shots.:pimp:
ok, if that's what you think. you're entitled to your opinion, though stating it as fact over and over without bothering to back it up in any way is pretty antagonizing.

i've been a jordan fan since his third (sorry i put second, but that's not true) season, so i'm a bit biased, but in my opinion jordan at his prime was better than kobe at basically everything except three point shooting. faster, stronger, more explosive, better finisher around the rim, better post scorer, better midrange shooter (mostly because of better elevation to get shots off), better passer from every range, much better rebounder, better double team roamer / lane clogger, better shot blocker, better on the ball defender, better leader, and better clutch finisher on both ends. kobe is also a more creative dribbler, though i think he's bit more turnover prone, so i'm not sure that's 100% a good thing.

now i think kobe's playing incredible ball this year, and is currently better than mike at age 35 when he won his last mvp, but not mike at 29 when he led the league in scoring and steals and scored 41 a game in the finals on his way to his 3rd straight finals mvp.

[mjbulls23]

i've been a jordan fan since his second season, so i'm a bit biased, but in my opinion jordan at his prime was better than kobe at basically everything except three point shooting.


BTW, exactly what time period would you consider MJ's prime? I was thinking anywhere from 87 to 93 since it's hard to narrow it down from that....

[KINGD]

ok, if that's what you think. you're entitled to your opinion, though stating it as fact over and over without bothering to back it up in any way is pretty antagonizing.

i've been a jordan fan since his third (sorry i put second, but that's not true) season, so i'm a bit biased, but in my opinion jordan at his prime was better than kobe at basically everything except three point shooting. faster, stronger, more explosive, better finisher around the rim, better post scorer, better midrange shooter (mostly because of better elevation to get shots off), better passer from every range, much better rebounder, better double team roamer / lane clogger, better shot blocker, better on the ball defender, better leader, and better clutch finisher on both ends. kobe is also a more creative dribbler, though i think he's bit more turnover prone, so i'm not sure that's 100% a good thing.

now i think kobe's playing incredible ball this year, and is currently better than mike at age 35 when he won his last mvp, but not mike at 29 when he led the league in scoring and steals and scored 41 a game in the finals on his way to his 3rd straight finals mvp.

Except Kobe is in his 12th year in the league and NOT in his prime. We never got to see what prime Kobe ( 01-05) could do with no Shaq. Even so, to me, Kobe is the better on ball defender( not quite as good team wise), better mid-range shoooter mostly because of his incredible abilty to shoot off the dribble, just as good a leader( this year), considerably more range and considerably better 3 pt shooter,all while being just as clutch. Also Kobe was the better free throw shooter.:pimp:

[dejordan]

BTW, exactly what time period would you consider MJ's prime? I was thinking anywhere from 87 to 93 since it's hard to narrow it down from that....
it's tough to say. can't go wrong with anywhere between 89-93. personally i think around 90. he had developed the essentials of his post game as a way of throwing off the detroit double, still had the full explosiveness, and was integrating himself into a team game fluidly as he switched from being a scoring demon to a point guard to an off the ball member of the triangle.

[KINGD]

MJ's prime was 89-93.:pimp:

[dejordan]

Except Kobe is in his 12th year in the league and NOT in his prime. We never got to see what prime Kobe ( 01-05) could do with no Shaq. Even so, to me, Kobe is the better on ball defender( not quite as good team wise), better mid-range shoooter mostly because of his incredible abilty to shoot off the dribble, just as good a leader( this year), considerably more range and considerably better 3 pt shooter,all while being just as clutch. Also Kobe was the better free throw shooter.:pimp:
i actually agree that kobe peaked athletically earlier, but his mental game is peaking right now. he's playing incredibly smart, controlled, and dangerous ball. i think this is the best ball of his career (and i actually don't think jordan's most productive years statistically were his best years either. i put a lot of credence into the mental game and playing team ball).

we'll have to agree to disagree on matters of personal perception. though the difference in ft% is 0.4% for their careers (in kobe's favor) so less than 1/2 of a percentage point. if you only look at their career's through the 12th season mike's actually got the superior career ft%ages and 3pt%ages, but i wouldn't actually argue that he was a better shooter. just mention it because it's surprising.

[BIZARRO]

Except Kobe is in his 12th year in the league and NOT in his prime. We never got to see what prime Kobe ( 01-05) could do with no Shaq. Even so, to me, Kobe is the better on ball defender( not quite as good team wise), better mid-range shoooter mostly because of his incredible abilty to shoot off the dribble, just as good a leader( this year), considerably more range and considerably better 3 pt shooter,all while being just as clutch. Also Kobe was the better free throw shooter.:pimp:


I mean I'm sorry, but sometimes the things that get posted are just from Fantasyland. :confusedshrug:


Let me ask a question King D. How old are you? Did you watch Mike from 88-90?

[mjbulls23]

it's tough to say. can't go wrong with anywhere between 89-93. personally i think around 90. he had developed the essentials of his post game as a way of throwing off the detroit double, still had the full explosiveness, and was integrating himself into a team game fluidly as he switched from being a scoring demon to a point guard to an off the ball member of the triangle.

ya I can agree.. it all balances out in a way, since he had the 32/8/8 season in 89 and then wins the championship in 91 playing within the triangle offense... I guess its only right that you pick 1990 ..

and speaking of Phil Jackson I will be the first one to give him a great deal of credit for showing MJ "the way"... I also believe playing the Pistons in the playoffs somewhat helped develop him & Pip as a players...



MJ's prime was 89-93.:pimp:

ya but it's tough to leave out the 87-88 season... although it was a great season, it probably didn't necessarily mean he was at his peak just yet

[KINGD]

i actually agree that kobe peaked athletically earlier, but his mental game is peaking right now. he's playing incredibly smart, controlled, and dangerous ball. i think this is the best ball of his career (and i actually don't think jordan's most productive years statistically were his best years either. i put a lot of credence into the mental game and playing team ball).

we'll have to agree to disagree on matters of personal perception. though the difference in ft% is 0.4% for their careers (in kobe's favor) so less than 1/2 of a percentage point. if you only look at their career's through the 12th season mike's actually got the superior career ft%ages and 3pt%ages, but i wouldn't actually argue that he was a better shooter. just mention it because it's surprising.

Mental game? Who cares. I think Mike peaked mentally in 98. Does that make him better then 93 Jordan?No. Kobe is playing his typical ball this year. His true prime was 01-03 though. Kobe shot considerably more threes then MJ and still shot a higher %. Slightly better free throw shooter yes.:pimp:

[KINGD]

I mean I'm sorry, but sometimes the things that get posted are just from Fantasyland. :confusedshrug:


Let me ask a question King D. How old are you? Did you watch Mike from 88-90?

I did. Kobe playing the likes of Wade/Davis/Gino/T-Mac/A.I./Redd/ Martin etc and doing a superb job.I find this EXTREMELY impressive when you consider todays defensive rules.:pimp:

[Da_Realist]

...Kobe is a great clutch player, but not as clutch as MJ to me seeing that it was routine for MJ.. He was known to raise his game in the playoffs and Finals... and Kobe has raised his level of play before too, especially in the 01 playoffs, but he hasn't done enough to show me he is a more clutch player than MJ was especially in the postseason...

don't get clutch shooter and player mixed up...

Reggie is a clutch shooter, MJ is a clutch player...

but then again, that's just my opinion :ohwell:

We should have this posted. I'm glad someone understands the difference. :applause:

[BIZARRO]

I did. Kobe playing the likes of Wade/Davis/Gino/T-Mac/A.I./Redd/ Martin etc and doing a superb job.I find this EXTREMELY impressive when you consider todays defensive rules.:pimp:


So you are saying you did watch MJ in the late '80's. Is that what you are saying? Which would make you have to be at least 30 if that is the case.
I will take you at your word on that one.

Question One:
How can you say all this stuff when 99% of all stats favor MJ, some to most by a landslide? And adding to the stats that MJ was much more athletic.

Question Two:
You say Kobe is better, etc. How is it then that ALL 20 of the analysts for the top SG of all time on here lately voted for MJ as number 1? How is that the case, are you filled in with some knowledge they are not?


BTW for other, anyone who watched MJ play in his prime realizes how ridiculous this whole MJ/Kobe conversation is, but just posts to defend against the skewed perceptions of those who never saw him play in their prime.

[KINGD]

This post explains Kobe's great TEAM defense as well.

And if we're going to look at how the defense falls apart when a player doesn't play, we might as well switch some of the attention to Kobe as LAs defense falls apart more when he's off court (-11.2 points per 100 possessions) than Boston's D does when KG sits (-9.2). Actually if you're going to use the points per 100 possessions to show defensive impact, Kobe's is bigger than any player in the running for the MVP, including KG.

Lakers defensive efficiency is worse than the worst team in the league (that would be the Knicks) by a good margin when Kobe is off the floor, and is better than the team ranked 4th (Hornets) with him on the floor. Don't know how much more you can ask for if you go by defensive efficiency as a way to measure defensive impact

LA's defense decreases by 12.2 points per 100 possessions when Kobe is on the bench, while the offense increases by 5.3 points per 100 possessions,

As a little follow up to the defensive impact argument, I've looked into on/off court impact in eFG% too. The leaders among players that play at least 50% are:

1. Kobe Bryant -5.1%
2. Marcus Camby -4.4%
3. Pau Gasol -4.3%
4. Kevin Garnett -4.1%

I think it's interesting how just about every shotblocker in the league has a good impact here, and few guards have good impact. It's very noteworthy that a guard is on top of the chart.

The leaders in on/off impact in defensive efficiency (points per 100 possessions) were:

1. Kobe Bryant -12.2
2. Josh Smith -9.1
x. Marcus Camby -8.3
x. Kevin Garnett -7.8 (can't remember all the players in between, but I know Kobe and Josh were 1 and 2).

So, I feel very confident when I say that Kobe is my DPOY at this point in the season followed by KG and Marcus Camby. Biggest impact in both eFG% and defensive efficiency is pretty big, especially for a guard. No stat is perfect unless you have the right context, and these are no different, but they show a strong indication none the less.

http://www.ocregister.com/sports/lakers-kobe-bryant-1996873-left-game

I think Kobe should be DPOY .

[KINGD]

So you are saying you did watch MJ in the late '80's. Is that what you are saying? Which would make you have to be at least 30 if that is the case.
I will take you at your word on that one.

Question One:
How can you say all this stuff when 99% of all stats favor MJ, some to most by a landslide? And adding to the stats that MJ was much more athletic.

Question Two:
You say Kobe is better, etc. How is it then that ALL 20 of the analysts for the top SG of all time on here lately voted for MJ as number 1? How is that the case, are you filled in with some knowledge they are not?


BTW for other, anyone who watched MJ play in his prime realizes how ridiculous this whole MJ/Kobe conversation is, but just posts to defend against the skewed perceptions of those who never saw him play in their prime.

Kobe and MJ have similar stats as starters. Even more similar as " the man" And Kobe finished at num 2 on that list...At 29 yrs old. Very impressive.

[BIZARRO]

Kobe and MJ have similar stats as starters. Even more similar as " the man" And Kobe finished at num 2 on that list...At 29 yrs old. Very impressive.


Are those the stats where MJ has more points, more rebounds, more assists, much higher fg%, more blocks, less turnovers, and more steals?

:rolleyes:

I'm out. You can't reason with an unreasonable man. All 20 analysts agreed about MJ as #1, but yet we are now privy to this new opinion about Kobe Bryant. Unbelievable.

[KINGD]

Are those the stats where MJ has more points, more rebounds, more assists, much higher fg%, more blocks, less turnovers, and more steals?

:rolleyes:

I'm out. You can't reason with an unreasonable man. All 20 analysts agreed about MJ as #1, but yet we are now privy to this new opinion about Kobe Bryant. Unbelievable.


No it's when MJ barely has "more" anything. Kobe's career is not finished. No prob with all them picking MJ at #1 but Kobe is better.:pimp:

[dejordan]

Mental game? Who cares. I think Mike peaked mentally in 98. Does that make him better then 93 Jordan?No. Kobe is playing his typical ball this year. His true prime was 01-03 though. Kobe shot considerably more threes then MJ and still shot a higher %. Slightly better free throw shooter yes.:pimp:
you think kobe peaked at 22 - 24, and we didn't get to see it because of shaq? i don't know about that. that's awfully young for a guard to peak. for that matter kobe took 5 & 1/2 more shots per game than shaq in 2003 too (exactly 1 shot per game less than mike at the same age, when jordan averaged 35, won his first mvp, and the dpoy). he showed us what he had that year, and played amazing ball.

i think we may have missed out on his peak because he was hurt at ages 25 and 26. at 27 he got healthy, and now you can wonder: would he have been a better player from 25 yrs old to the present if he'd never been hurt? i think so. but i think that between 25 and 29 most players tend to hit their best combination of physical dominance and mental game - ( and by the way, when i say mental game i don't necessarily mean playing mind games. i mean understanding how to fit into a team and lead your teammates is what makes you win. even when you've got guys like jud buchler and bill wennington playing in your playoff rotations, you've got them motivated, confident, and able to play their roles, and that makes you a better player than someone who just shows up, guns up big numbers, and goes home mad at his teammates).

but i definitely think saying that we didn't see someone at their best is a slippery slope, and we should be careful (i'm agreeing with you, so i'll use the word "we"). you could claim the same thing about penny or hill if you wanted to and call them twice as good as they were (and people seem to do that subconsciously). or you could say that jordan had his best finals in 93, and would have had his best year ever if he'd played in 94. can't really prove or refute any of it.

[easydoesit]

This post explains Kobe's great TEAM defense as well.

And if we're going to look at how the defense falls apart when a player doesn't play, we might as well switch some of the attention to Kobe as LAs defense falls apart more when he's off court (-11.2 points per 100 possessions) than Boston's D does when KG sits (-9.2). Actually if you're going to use the points per 100 possessions to show defensive impact, Kobe's is bigger than any player in the running for the MVP, including KG.

Lakers defensive efficiency is worse than the worst team in the league (that would be the Knicks) by a good margin when Kobe is off the floor, and is better than the team ranked 4th (Hornets) with him on the floor. Don't know how much more you can ask for if you go by defensive efficiency as a way to measure defensive impact

LA's defense decreases by 12.2 points per 100 possessions when Kobe is on the bench, while the offense increases by 5.3 points per 100 possessions,

As a little follow up to the defensive impact argument, I've looked into on/off court impact in eFG% too. The leaders among players that play at least 50% are:

1. Kobe Bryant -5.1%
2. Marcus Camby -4.4%
3. Pau Gasol -4.3%
4. Kevin Garnett -4.1%

I think it's interesting how just about every shotblocker in the league has a good impact here, and few guards have good impact. It's very noteworthy that a guard is on top of the chart.

The leaders in on/off impact in defensive efficiency (points per 100 possessions) were:

1. Kobe Bryant -12.2
2. Josh Smith -9.1
x. Marcus Camby -8.3
x. Kevin Garnett -7.8 (can't remember all the players in between, but I know Kobe and Josh were 1 and 2).

So, I feel very confident when I say that Kobe is my DPOY at this point in the season followed by KG and Marcus Camby. Biggest impact in both eFG% and defensive efficiency is pretty big, especially for a guard. No stat is perfect unless you have the right context, and these are no different, but they show a strong indication none the less.

http://www.ocregister.com/sports/lakers-kobe-bryant-1996873-left-game

I think Kobe should be DPOY .

I don't know where you got those stats from but I think they are wrong. Kobe's net defensive impact per 100 possessions is -3.3 pts according to 82games.com (compared to garnetts -5.5) Its still a very good score but no where near the number you posted.

As a side note, dwight howard, much touted for his defensive prowess is +2.4

http://www.82games.com/ONSORT5.HTM

[KINGD]

you think kobe peaked at 22 - 24, and we didn't get to see it because of shaq? i don't know about that. that's awfully young for a guard to peak. for that matter kobe took 5 & 1/2 more shots per game than shaq in 2003 too (exactly 1 shot per game less than mike at the same age, when jordan averaged 35, won his first mvp, and the dpoy). he showed us what he had that year, and played amazing ball.

i think we may have missed out on his peak because he was hurt at ages 25 and 26. at 27 he got healthy, and now you can wonder: would he have been a better player from 25 yrs old to the present if he'd never been hurt? i think so. but i think that between 25 and 29 most players tend to hit their best combination of physical dominance and mental game - ( and by the way, when i say mental game i don't necessarily mean playing mind games. i mean understanding how to fit into a team and lead your teammates is what makes you win. even when you've got guys like jud buchler and bill wennington playing in your playoff rotations, you've got them motivated, confident, and able to play their roles, and that makes you a better player than someone who just shows up, guns up big numbers, and goes home mad at his teammates).

but i definitely think saying that we didn't see someone at their best is a slippery slope, and we should be careful (i'm agreeing with you, so i'll use the word "we"). you could claim the same thing about penny or hill if you wanted to and call them twice as good as they were (and people seem to do that subconsciously). or you could say that jordan had his best finals in 93, and would have had his best year ever if he'd played in 94. can't really prove or refute any of it.

No, it's not about age but mileage imo. Kobe peaked at 01-05 because that's when he best combined his amazing atlhletic gifts with his skill. I think a player prime occurs between his 5th to 8th year. Now he has the skill but has clearly lost a step. It really really sucks that 03-04 and 04-05 were ruined for Kobe because of off the court problems. I agree on the '' mental part" of the game but I was referring to game management, mastery of the game, being crafty etc.:pimp:

[KINGD]

I don't know where you got those stats from but I think they are wrong. Kobe's net defensive impact per 100 possessions is -3.3 pts according to 82games.com (compared to garnetts -5.5) Its still a very good score but no where near the number you posted.

As a side note, dwight howard, much touted for his defensive prowess is +2.4

http://www.82games.com/ONSORT5.HTM

Hmmm you are correct. Still, for a guard, that is extremely impressive.:pimp:

[dejordan]

No, it's not about age but mileage imo. Kobe peaked at 01-05 because that's when he best combined his amazing atlhletic gifts with his skill. I think a player prime occurs between his 5th to 8th year. Now he has the skill but has clearly lost a step. It really really sucks that 03-04 and 04-05 were ruined for Kobe because of off the court problems. I agree on the '' mental part" of the game but I was referring to game management, mastery of the game, being crafty etc.:pimp:
gotcha. i agree. and here i thought you were just trolling to stir up **** earlier, yet you've got a thoughtful evalution going. it pays to take the time to type it out.

other than kobe, who are your faves today?

[KINGD]

gotcha. i agree. and here i thought you were just trolling to stir up **** earlier, yet you've got a thoughtful evalution going. it pays to take the time to type it out.

other than kobe, who are your faves today?


Hmm, well my all time favorite player was Bird, but in todays league my favs are Duncan/Gasol/Kobe. I enjoy the skilled players.:cheers:

[Anaximandro1]

Black Mamba is not in Duncan

[KINGD]

[QUOTE=Anaximandro1]Black Mamba is not in Duncan

[gts]

KINGD i like the posts, may not agree, but that's not what i'm getting at... you did a good job of presenting your side of the topic and keeping it above board while not coming off trollish or groupie like at all... great job keep up the good thoughful posts....

[bleedinpurpleTwo]

KINGD i like the posts, may not agree, but that's not what i'm getting at... you did a good job of presenting your side of the topic and keeping it above board while not coming off trollish or groupie like at all... great job keep up the good thoughful posts....

I would agree with gts. Nice job KingD of doing some research and making the effort to present it all without getting trollish.

I'm glad someone did that research, 'cause I sure as hell ain't gonna do it.

[KINGD]

KINGD i like the posts, may not agree, but that's not what i'm getting at... you did a good job of presenting your side of the topic and keeping it above board while not coming off trollish or groupie like at all... great job keep up the good thoughful posts....


:)

[KINGD]

I would agree with gts. Nice job KingD of doing some research and making the effort to present it all without getting trollish.

I'm glad someone did that research, 'cause I sure as hell ain't gonna do it.

I'm never trollish.:)

[KINGD]

Anybody here live in Denver? Listen to the Irv Joe and Jim Show? They were discussing the top 10 SG list. Both Irv and Joe thought Kobe was better then MJ. How ironic.

[danumber88]

Well to me the people @ his level or going ot be better is

magic
Lebron
Kobe

i know theres more hall of famers at his leven but to lazy to type..

[gts]

Anybody here live in Denver? Listen to the Irv Joe and Jim Show? They were discussing the top 10 SG list. Both Irv and Joe thought Kobe was better then MJ. How ironic.always remember that radio and TV talk show guys need to stir the pot now and again to keep the listeners listening and calling... the shows not interesting if everything they say is agreeable... and the kobe vs. MJ debate will always stir the pot... lol

[KINGD]

From LG





Kobe Bryant (plays most of his minutes at SG):

Opponent SG PER and eFG% - 13.4 and 44.5%
Opponent SF PER - 15.5 and 53.7%

Kevin Garnett (plays most of his minutes at PF):

Opponent PF PER and eFG% - 12.4 and 40%
Opponent C PER and eFG% - 17 and 48.3%

Marcus Camby (C):

Opponent C PER and eFG% - 18.8 and 51.8%

Chris Paul (PG):
Opponent PG PER and eFG% - 18.1 and 51%

Josh Smith (PF):

Opponent PF PER and eFG% - 18.8 and 49.9

Those numbers don't tell everything but I think DPOY is between Kobe and KG.

[KINGD]

always remember that radio and TV talk show guys need to stir the pot now and again to keep the listeners listening and calling... the shows not interesting if everything they say is agreeable... and the kobe vs. MJ debate will always stir the pot... lol

Indeed.:pimp:

[Loki]

This post explains Kobe's great TEAM defense as well.

And if we're going to look at how the defense falls apart when a player doesn't play, we might as well switch some of the attention to Kobe as LAs defense falls apart more when he's off court (-11.2 points per 100 possessions) than Boston's D does when KG sits (-9.2). Actually if you're going to use the points per 100 possessions to show defensive impact, Kobe's is bigger than any player in the running for the MVP, including KG.

Lakers defensive efficiency is worse than the worst team in the league (that would be the Knicks) by a good margin when Kobe is off the floor, and is better than the team ranked 4th (Hornets) with him on the floor. Don't know how much more you can ask for if you go by defensive efficiency as a way to measure defensive impact

LA's defense decreases by 12.2 points per 100 possessions when Kobe is on the bench, while the offense increases by 5.3 points per 100 possessions,

As a little follow up to the defensive impact argument, I've looked into on/off court impact in eFG% too. The leaders among players that play at least 50% are:

1. Kobe Bryant -5.1%
2. Marcus Camby -4.4%
3. Pau Gasol -4.3%
4. Kevin Garnett -4.1%

I think it's interesting how just about every shotblocker in the league has a good impact here, and few guards have good impact. It's very noteworthy that a guard is on top of the chart.

The leaders in on/off impact in defensive efficiency (points per 100 possessions) were:

1. Kobe Bryant -12.2
2. Josh Smith -9.1
x. Marcus Camby -8.3
x. Kevin Garnett -7.8 (can't remember all the players in between, but I know Kobe and Josh were 1 and 2).

So, I feel very confident when I say that Kobe is my DPOY at this point in the season followed by KG and Marcus Camby. Biggest impact in both eFG% and defensive efficiency is pretty big, especially for a guard. No stat is perfect unless you have the right context, and these are no different, but they show a strong indication none the less.

http://www.ocregister.com/sports/lakers-kobe-bryant-1996873-left-game

I think Kobe should be DPOY .

I wonder why Kobe fans weren't trumpeting these 82games.com defensive stats the last two seasons to defend Kobe's defensive first team nods when others were criticizing them. Oh, wait, I know why: because he was decidedly average in all of these metrics in '06 and '07. But now that he's doing well in them, Kobe fans cite the numbers while formerly minimizing them. Typical Kobe fan hypocrisy. :oldlol:

Kobe fans did the same thing with block and steal numbers. The past several years all they did was deride players who posted good block/steal numbers as "gamblers," but then when, for the first 10-12 games of this season, Kobe was averaging 2.3+ steals/1+ blk, all of a sudden it was about how he was "a terror on the defensive end, full of energy and activity; a DPOY candidate." :oldlol: They do the same with rebounding, too; I've actually heard Kobe fans say that Kobe doesn't average more rebounds or have high rebounding games because "he would just be stealing rebounds from his teammates" -- as if the Lakers have been a rebounding force the past few years. :oldlol: Then, when he has a few consecutive double-digit rebounding games, it all becomes how he's such a great rebounder and well-rounded player etc. (despite having just 2-4 double digit rebounding games in the past two seasons combined prior to a couple of months ago, mind you).


Just utter, flagrant hypocrisy and sophistry. :oldlol:

[Diesel J]

[QUOTE=Anaximandro1]Black Mamba is not in Duncan

[RoseCity07]

Still dumb kids out there saying Kobe is better than Jordan. That's cool because saying that doesn't make it so. So might say Kobe is a better offensive player but that's not even true. Then in all other categories Jordan smashes Kobe to pieces.

Los Angeles so wants to have this godly like basketball super hero like Jordan they blow up Kobe's accomplishments. The only thing Kobe has done is score 81 points in a game and ride Shaq to 3 titles. That's better than Jordan? Pahahahahahha

[mjbulls23]

Still dumb kids out there saying Kobe is better than Jordan. That's cool because saying that doesn't make it so. So might say Kobe is a better offensive player but that's not even true. Then in all other categories Jordan smashes Kobe to pieces.

Los Angeles so wants to have this godly like basketball super hero like Jordan they blow up Kobe's accomplishments. The only thing Kobe has done is score 81 points in a game and ride Shaq to 3 titles. That's better than Jordan? Pahahahahahha

I'll assume you were being sarcastic in this thread

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=35145&page=7

[KINGD]

I wonder why Kobe fans weren't trumpeting these 82games.com defensive stats the last two seasons to defend Kobe's defensive first team nods when others were criticizing them. Oh, wait, I know why: because he was decidedly average in all of these metrics in '06 and '07. But now that he's doing well in them, Kobe fans cite the numbers while formerly minimizing them. Typical Kobe fan hypocrisy. :oldlol:

Kobe fans did the same thing with block and steal numbers. The past several years all they did was deride players who posted good block/steal numbers as "gamblers," but then when, for the first 10-12 games of this season, Kobe was averaging 2.3+ steals/1+ blk, all of a sudden it was about how he was "a terror on the defensive end, full of energy and activity; a DPOY candidate." :oldlol: They do the same with rebounding, too; I've actually heard Kobe fans say that Kobe doesn't average more rebounds or have high rebounding games because "he would just be stealing rebounds from his teammates" -- as if the Lakers have been a rebounding force the past few years. :oldlol: Then, when he has a few consecutive double-digit rebounding games, it all becomes how he's such a great rebounder and well-rounded player etc. (despite having just 2-4 double digit rebounding games in the past two seasons combined prior to a couple of months ago, mind you).


Just utter, flagrant hypocrisy and sophistry. :oldlol:

:confusedshrug:

[RoseCity07]

Being satirical is fun sometimes. I know Kobe didn't really do much in the playoffs in comparison to Shaq. Looking at the numbers it's not even disputable that Shaq is the reason the Lakers won.

[noseguard22]

Those Kobe finals stats aren't too impressive:confusedshrug:

Actually his eFG% in the finals is 100%. Just check 82games.com. He shot all halfcourt shots in the finals because phil told him to.

[Scott Pippen]

jordan and pippen the best!:applause:Nobody ever be better than them

[Da_Realist]

When a player who's actually better shows up, people will recognize it. End of discussion.

Co-sign

[gpfanz]

Micheal Jordan was one of the greatest players to play the game but people are going to have to face it sooner or later that they're are players just as good as him if not better.

People are in denial and they will never let anyone be better than Micheal jordan people just wont accept it thats how it is.

People ride off other players before they have even compared them to him because they wont let anyone be better seriously think about it.

woRd OUT

Whos better then Kobe? :D

[bagelred]

The only way to understand Michael Jordan is to have lived through it. Every time Jordan played, it was an event. You always felt like something special was about to happen.

And it always did.

The only player since then that I feel has that aura is Lebron James. There is just something special about the great ones.

Lebron James isn't on Michael's level yet, but he's the only player that I feel could get there.

[bagelred]

What I also find funny is how people think he would just be another swingman nowadays...oh my lord.....

It wasn't just his physical gifts, which were tremendous. It was his unbelievable will to win that made him standout.

[Vragrant]

One of the great things about Jordan is, not only did he always meet the hype, he usually exceeded it It was unreal living through the Jordan era..

[danumber88]

All I have to say is one of his seasons:

53.5% On the field while scoring 35, while putting up 5/5/3/1
playing as a GUARD position.

Thats really insane.

Closes one to being as good as MJ or prolly better would be the other MJ. (magic jonhson)

[deion2123]

I remember John Salley claiming that Magic Johnson was the greatest player he's ever seen, and someone asked him "What about Jordan."

John Salley simply replied..."Magic!!!"
So is Salley stupid because he didn't pick your precious? Of course not, he was old enough to see other legends play the game...the rules were different back then, so looking at statistics as the sole analysis is completely misleading. Of course there are hundreds of memorable moments from Jordan's career, just like there are from those other legends...most of you just can't be bothered to actually do some research about them so you simply stick with the obvious choice, a player you grew up watching. I'm not really blaming you, hard to argue against his success and accolades...it's just not as one sided as some of you like to think.

I'd say there are about 3-4 other players in the same tier as Michael Jordan, but to think no one should be compared to him is bias at its best.

Elders in my life, I'd say about two of them consider Jordan to be the greatest...everyone else leans toward Bird or Magic or Kareem or Hakeem Olajuwon. So I mean everyone has an opinion, I just think if you ask an older generation who have seen guys like Baylor, West, Wilt and Russell play...their opinions will be somewhat different.

for 1 thing Salley hates Jordan...he said Kobe lol...was better than MJ and also Magic..Salley is a scrub who has no opinion of any good players...even Magic thinks Mj is better than Kobe and himself

[Maniak]

Here is a post from a poster named Jordansbulls on another site and he is very knowledgeable. I am no Jordan fan, but this guy does make great points.

http://www.answers.com/topic/nba-records

The Playoffs is where you make your name and where greatness is defined. But MJ was more consistent and holds records as well such as:

Highest PPG Average: 30.12
Most seasons leading league in Points: 11
Most scoring titles: 10
Highest PER Efficiency: 27.91

Also, MJ is no doubt the greatest playoff performer and IMO he was the greatest Road Player Ever. Most of his greatest feats happened on the road.

As far as the playoffs go, here are a few things that stuck out in my mind:

Playoffs
Most Points Per Game (min. 25 games)
33.4 by Michael Jordan (179 games)

Most Points in a Game
63 by Michael Jordan

Most 50 Point Games
8 by Michael Jordan

Most 40 Point Games
38 by Michael Jordan

Most 30 Point Games
109 by Michael Jordan

Most 20 Point Games
174 by Michael Jordan (he played 179 playoff games and scored under 20 only 5 times)

These players all lost these series with Homecourt advantage which means they were the favorite. If someone was injured like a main star then that factors in, but if not that doesn't factor in the discussion.





MJ never lost a series with homecourt advantage/better seed/better record. What does that mean, well he was the only superstar to never lose a series in which his team was considered the favorite and better team. All the other legends lost series.

Also consider the following:

Is 18% a good percentage?

In what you might ask... 18% winning percentage...

Pretty awful right?

Well in 60 years of NBA Basketball only 11 league leading scorers have won a championship... That's 18.333333%...

Their names are: Shaquille O'Neal, Michael Jordan, Kareem Abdul Jabbar, George Mikan and some guy named Joe Fulks...

Most of these players were dominant Centers, who did more than just score.

That means that non center players who led the league in scoring have won in an amazing 10% of the time.. and only one player did it... Michael Jordan. In one era. That phenomenon of nature who won six...

10% winning historically!!! 10 PERCENT!!!

I will argue that the odds are against a high scoring guard from winning it all.

Here are the playoff top games.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/basketball/nba/2002/playoffs/top_individual_points/

Top Playoff Single-Game Scoring Performances
Player Team Opponent Total Date
Michael Jordan Chicago at Boston 63 April 20, 1986
Elgin Baylor L.A. Lakers at Boston 61 April 14, 1962
Wilt Chamberlain Philadelphia Syracuse 56 March 22, 1962
Michael Jordan Chicago at Miami 56 April 29, 1992
Charles Barkley Phoenix at Golden State 56 May 4, 1994
Michael Jordan Chicago Cleveland 55 May 1, 1988
Michael Jordan Chicago Phoenix 55 June 16, 1993
Michael Jordan Chicago Washington 55 April 27, 1997
John Havlicek Boston Atlanta 54 April 1, 1973
Michael Jordan Chicago New York 54 May 31, 1993
Allen Iverson Philadelphia Toronto 54 May 9, 2001
Wilt Chamberlain Philadelphia Syracuse 53 March 14, 1960
Jerry West L.A. Lakers Boston 53 April 23, 1969
Jerry West L.A. Lakers Baltimore 52 April 5, 1965
Allen Iverson Philadelphia Toronto 52 May 16, 2001
Sam Jones Boston at New York 51 March 28, 1967
Eric Floyd Golden State L.A. Lakers 51 May 10, 1987
Bob Cousy Boston Syracuse 50* March 21, 1953
Bob Petit St. Louis Boston 50 April 12, 1958
Wilt Chamberlain Philadelphia at Boston 50 March 22, 1950
Wilt Chamberlain San Francisco St. Louis 50 April 10, 1964
Billy Cunningham Philadelphia Milwaukee 50 April 1, 1970
Bob McAdoo Buffalo Washington 50 April 18, 1975
Dominique Wilkins Atlanta Detroit 50 April 19, 1986
Michael Jordan Chicago Cleveland 50 April 28, 1988
Michael Jordan Chicago Cleveland 50^ May 5, 1989
Karl Malone Utah Seattle 50 April 22, 2000
Vince Carter Toronto Philadelphia 50 May 11, 2001
*4 overtimes
^overtime

This is courtesy of NBA on NBC here:

NBA PLAYOFFS HIGH SCORING GAME BY YEAR
1946-47 - 37 Joe Fulks, PHW vs CHI at PHW 16Apr47
1947-48 - 34 Connie Simmons, BLT vs NYK at BLT 27Mar48
1948-49 - 42 George Mikan, MPL vs WSC 4Apr49 @ MPL
1949-50 - 40 George Mikan, MPL vs SYR at MPL 23Apr50
1950-51 - 41 George Mikan, MPL vs IDS at MPL 21Mar51
1951-52 - 47 George Mikan, MPL at ROC 29Mar52
1952-53 - 50 Bob Cousy, BOS vs SYR at BOS 21Mar53
1953-54 - 36 Dolph Schayes, SYR at NYK 21Mar54
1954-55 - 32 Bill Sharman, BOS at SYR 24Mar55
1955-56 - 43 Neil Johnson, PHW at SYR 25Mar56
1956-57 - 42 Bob Leonard, MPL vs STL at MPL 25Mar57
1957-58 - 50 Bob Pettit, STL vs BOS at STL 12Apr58
1958-59 - 40 Cliff Hagan, STL vs MPL at STL 21Mar59
1959-60 - 53 Wilt Chamberlain, PHW vs SYR at PHW 14Mar60
1960-61 - 47 Elgin Baylor, LAL at DET 18Mar61
............... 47 Elgin Baylor, LAL at STL 27Mar61
1961-62 - 61 Elgin Baylor, LAL at BOS 14Apr62
1962-63 - 47 Sam Jones, BOS vs CIN at BOS 10Apr63
1963-64 - 50 Wilt Chamberlain, SFW vs STL at SFW 10Apr64
1964-65 - 52 Jerry West, LAL vs BAL at LAL 3Apr65
1965-66 - 46 Wilt Chamberlain, PHI vs BOS at PHI 12Apr66
1966-67 - 55 Rick Barry, SFW vs PHI at SFW 18Apr67
1967-68 - 46 Zelmo Beaty, STL vs SFW 23Mar68 @ STL
1968-69 - 53 Jerry West, LAL vs BOS at LAL 23Apr69
1969-70 - 50 Billy Cunningham, PHI vs MIL at PHI 1Apr70
1970-71 - 39 Gail Goodrich, LAL at CHI 28Mar71
1971-72 - 43 John Havlicek BOS at ATL 31Mar72
1972-73 - 54 John Havlicek, BOS vs ATL at BOS 1Apr73
1973-74 - 44 Bob McAdoo, BUF vs BOS 6Apr74 at BUF
............... 44 Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, MIL at CHI 18Apr74
1974-75 - 50 Bob McAdoo, BUF vs WAS at BUF 18Apr75
1975-76 - 45 Fred Brown, SEA vs PHO at SEA 15Apr76
1976-77 - 45 Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, LAL vs GSW at LAL 29Apr77
1977-78 - 46 George Gervin, SAN vs WAS at SAN 18Apr78
1978-79 - 42 George Gervin, SAN vs WAS at SAN 11May79
............... 42 George Gervin, SAN at WAS 18May79
1979-80 - 44 George Gervin, SAN vs HOU at SAN 4Apr80
1980-81 - 42 Calvin Murphy, HOU at SAN 17Apr81
............... 42 Moses Malone, HOU vs KCK at HOU 26Apr81
1981-82 - 39 George Gervin, SAN vs LAL at SAN 14May82
............... 39 Andrew Toney, PHI vs BOS at PHI 16May82
1982-83 - 42 Alex English, DEN vs PHO at PHO 24Apr83
............... 42 George Gervin, SAN at DEN 26Apr83
1983-84 - 46 Bernard King, NYK at DET 19Apr84
............... 46 Bernard King, NYK vs DET at NYK 22Apr84
1984-85 - 43 Rolando Blackman, DAL vs POR at DAL 18Apr85
............... 43 Larry Bird, BOS vs DET at BOS 8May85
1985-86 - 63 Michael Jordan, CHI at BOS 20Apr86
1986-87 - 51 Sleepy Floyd, GSW vs LAL at GSW 10May87
1987-88 - 55 Michael Jordan, CHI vs CLE at CHI 1May88
1988-89 - 50 Michael Jordan, CHI vs CLE at CHI 5May89
1989-90 - 49 Michael Jordan, CHI at PHI 11May90
1990-91 - 46 Michael Jordan, CHI at PHI 10May91
1991-92 - 56 Michael Jordan, CHI at MIA 29Apr92
1992-93 - 55 Michael Jordan, CHI vs PHO at CHI 16Jun93
1993-94 - 56 Charles Barkley, PHO at GSW 4May94
1994-95 - 48 Michael Jordan, CHI at CHA 28Apr95
1995-96 - 46 Michael Jordan, CHI at NYK 11May96
1996-97 - 55 Michael Jordan, CHI vs WAS at CHI 27Apr97
1997-98 - 45 Michael Jordan, CHI at UTA 14Jun98
1998-99 - 37 Tim Duncan, SAN at LAL 22May99
............... 37 Scottie Pippen, HOU vs LAL at HOU 13May99
............... 37 Shaquille O'Neal, LAL vs HOU at HOU 15May99
............... 37 Allen Iverson, PHI vs ORL at PHI 15May99
1999-00 - 50 Karl Malone, UTA vs SEA at UTA 22Apr00
-----
ALL-TIME HIGHEST SCORING AVERAGES, NBA PLAYOFFS
Jerry West, LAL vs BAL, 1965..... 46.3
Michael Jordan, CHI vs CLE, 1988..... 45.2
Michael Jordan, CHI vs MIA, 1992..... 45.0

ALL-TIME HIGHEST SCORING AVERAGES, NBA CHAMPIONSHIP SERIES/NBA FINALS
Michael Jordan, CHI vs PHO, 1993..... 41.0
Rick Barry, SFW vs PHI, 1965..... 40.8
Elgin Baylor, LAL vs BOS, 1962..... 40.6


Also MJ has 6 playoffs series where he averaged at least 40 ppg.

Looks like MJ did quite well don't you think?


JordansBulls wrote a lot more, but I thought that was all interesting.

woah, that was an awesome read!

[Psileas]

for 1 thing Salley hates Jordan...he said Kobe lol...was better than MJ and also Magic..Salley is a scrub who has no opinion of any good players...even Magic thinks Mj is better than Kobe and himself

Pat Riley and Phil Jackson were also scrubs. Guys like Chick Hearn and Harvey Pollack never played in a single NBA game and never could. What's your point? Knowledge and intelligence have nothing to do with your basketball value as a player.
Second, since you put so much value on legends' opinions, how about the opinion of the legend you consider the greatest?

http://www.cdymca.org/news/fullstory.asp?id=99


"Bill Russell is the game's greatest living legend...no one has influenced the game of basketball more than Bill."

[dafunkphenom]

I've been an avid NBA fan since 1992 and watch over 100 games a year easy (excluding playoffs) and try to look at every team. I can't speak of before that era because I only saw Magic, Isaiah, Dominique and other stars from the 80's play a few games and most of them were on classic games.

I can say for sure from 1992 on that Michael Jordan is the best player we have seen. As far as the physical tools go I think Kobe has just as many. It's the mental aspect that is not even close in comparison from anybody in this present era. I'm not trying to hold on to the past. I respect the players of today. Lebron and CP3 I consider top 5 overall players. I still consider Kobe to be easily the best right now though.
It just is what it is. Sometimes I watch games with people and they say, "Man Kobe's clutch", or "He sticks a dagger in people's heart's". I say to myself, do you remember Jordan? He was at a whole different level mentally.
First he came to a Chicago Bulls team that wasn't that great and progressively made them better over a half a decade. Every rival he had, who were also consider legends, he came back to own. Dominique, Isaiah, Barkley, Magic, Malone. Most of them were still in their primes when he destroyed them. Most of these legends also consider Jordan as the best of all time.

To come back after his first retirement and refine his game to once again easily become the best player in the league and once again 3 peat is an accomplishment I am not sure even Kobe could do. No proof of this of course before somebody else actually does it but I would bet against it. To leave the game like that for a year and a half and barely touch a basketball for over a year before attempting to train for the comeback is out of this world. Plus he lost some of his athleticism and had to develop the deadliest fadeaway mid range jumper we've seen to this day. Plus shore up his D to become one of the best one on one defenders going.
Then to come back and play for the Wizards is his late 30's and still be arguably the best player on the court is just as amazing. People had expectations of "air Jordan" so sometimes even I questioned the return but if we didn't know the Jordan of the past most would say he was a damn good player at age 40.
We haven't seen "Jordan" since Jordan. That's why everybody is still comparing today's future stars to "The next Jordan"

How old is the thread starter? Can't be any older than high school age I bet.

[brandonislegend]

magic > mj, imo.

[bleedinpurpleTwo]

magic > mj, imo.

omg, I can't believe you just said that.
don't you know MJ is up on a pedestal?
don't you know MJ cured the world of all ills... when he wasn't busy saving damsels in distress?

[mjbulls23]

magic > mj, imo.

at least this is a respectable opinion, unlike what most other "Lakers fans" think about their current SG.

[Y2Gezee]

I'd give that Michael was MAYBE a slightly better individual than Magic, but I start my team with Magic over anybody and he's my pick for the GOAT

[tontoz]

magic > mj, imo.

Magic would be the first to disagree. So would every other Laker who played in that era.

Magic was a great player on offense but on defense....not so much.

Only people who didn't actually see Jordan in his prime would say something like that. There is nobody in todays game who is on Jordans level.

Kobe is basically a poor man's Jordan. A poor man's Jordan is still a great player though.

[Loki]

I'd give that Michael was MAYBE a slightly better individual than Magic, but I start my team with Magic over anybody and he's my pick for the GOAT

Jordan was more than a little bit better than Magic individually. Magic's advantage was how he could more easily integrate with the team, so if you're going to take him for that fact, that's fine. But it's incorrect to suggest that Jordan was merely "slightly" better than Magic individually -- he was quite a bit better, especially when one considers both sides of the ball (but even if we don't).


at least this is a respectable opinion, unlike what most other "Lakers fans" think about their current SG.

Seriously. Arguing Magic > Jordan is fine, even if it's a minority opinion (and in my opinion incorrect) because he had the career and game to stack up to Jordan.

Part of why people can argue this is because Magic played an entirely different position than Jordan, so people can always make an "apples and oranges" comparison and say that a great PG (and Magic was the best) is more valuable/better than a great SG, which might be true I suppose. However, with Kobe, who plays the same position and has the same type of game as Jordan (versatile two-way alpha male SG), this argument can never (and will never be able to be) made. It must always be an apples to apples comparison between those two, and Kobe will always come up short in that comparison because it cannot be argued that he does anything at all aside from 3-point shooting as well as Jordan did it.

[gts]

at least this is a respectable opinion, unlike what most other "Lakers fans" think about their current SG.funny post coming from somebody who whines and cries everrytime somebody brings up kobe in a thread?...

[mjbulls23]

funny post coming from somebody who whines and cries everrytime somebody brings up kobe in a thread?...

you might want to read through KINGD's posts in this thread first before commenting.

[gts]

you might want to read through KINGD's posts in this thread first before commenting.those were well before the thread got bumped today bro...

c'mon i thought the idea was to clean up the trollishness of the board not feed it

[mjbulls23]

those were well before the thread got bumped today bro...

c'mon i thought the idea was to clean up the trollishness of the board not feed it

well I get the idea but I'm convinced there's no way to stop the trolls on this board. That's why as of recently I'm staying out of any Kobe/Lakers related thread because as far as I'm concerned the trolls outwiegh the good posters like yourself, hotsizzle, Laker4Lyfe, etc...

[bleedinpurpleTwo]

well I get the idea but I'm convinced there's no way to stop the trolls on this board. That's why as of recently I'm staying out of any Kobe/Lakers related thread because as far as I'm concerned the trolls outwiegh the good posters like yourself, hotsizzle, Laker4Lyfe, etc...

I like the trolls. they keep me entertained. I miss Knoe Itawl. and Make It Rain. BULLS is completely absurd, but I find it amusing. guys like that.

[mjbulls23]

I like the trolls. they keep me entertained. I miss Knoe Itawl. and Make It Rain. BULLS is completely absurd, but I find it amusing. guys like that.

ya BULLS is an exception. Especially with all the Chicago Bulls and old players bashing posts :roll:

Make It Rain & Knoe don't post here anymore, but from what I saw they didn't just enter random threads and turn a good discussion into **** as often as Kobe trolls did, if at all. Just wait, if L.A. wins it all this year (which is very possible) you guys will see what I'm talking about regarding all these Kobe trolls.

[Tainted Sword]

well I get the idea but I'm convinced there's no way to stop the trolls on this board. That's why as of recently I'm staying out of any Kobe/Lakers related thread because as far as I'm concerned the trolls outwiegh the good posters like yourself, hotsizzle, Laker4Lyfe, etc...
There are only 3 Laker fans (if you want to call them that) that can be claimed as trolls. Considering the amount of Laker fans that post here, that's pretty damn good. I find it funny you're always calling out our fanbase as trolls while ignoring all the others on this site. Get a clue.

[Tainted Sword]

I like the trolls. they keep me entertained. I miss Knoe Itawl. and Make It Rain. BULLS is completely absurd, but I find it amusing. guys like that.
I don't even view BULLS as a troll. Sometimes his statements are so absurdly hilarious that I wonder if he's just screwing around with everyone. :oldlol:

[mjbulls23]

There are only 3 Laker fans (if you want to call them that) that can be claimed as trolls. Considering the amount of Laker fans that post here, that's pretty damn good. I find it funny you're always calling out our fanbase as trolls while ignoring all the others on this site. Get a clue.
I'm not calling out anyone. I've always done my best in the past to seperate Lakers fans, hell even Kobe fans, from the trolls. Off the top of my head, selrahc, KINGD, Poseidon, ababaabababuuba, Jacks3, griffmoney1984, BIGSHOT, eliteballer...

and if you're not a troll I don't see why you take offense.

it's meaningless arguments like this one about fanbases that are a major reason I stay out of Lakers/Kobe threads period.

[Y2Gezee]

Jordan was more than a little bit better than Magic individually. Magic's advantage was how he could more easily integrate with the team, so if you're going to take him for that fact, that's fine. But it's incorrect to suggest that Jordan was merely "slightly" better than Magic individually -- he was quite a bit better, especially when one considers both sides of the ball (but even if we don't).


Meh :ohwell: ... I'll stick with slightly

[bomber]

Micheal Jordan was one of the greatest players to play the game but people are going to have to face it sooner or later that they're are players just as good as him if not better.

People are in denial and they will never let anyone be better than Micheal jordan people just wont accept it thats how it is.

People ride off other players before they have even compared them to him because they wont let anyone be better seriously think about it.

woRd OUT

No he was the greatest of all time, and no one has proven otherwise thus far. Nobody is even in his class yet, Lebron and Kobe are the only two that have shown glimpses and Chris Paul did this year only.

We are to concerned with the present and future and are trying to find the next MJ that we over praise the top talents to a fault.

Somebody might go past him, but its not close to happening yet.

[bleedinpurpleTwo]

No he was the greatest shooting guard of all time, and no one has proven otherwise thus far. Nobody is even in his class yet, Lebron and Kobe are the only two that have shown glimpses and Chris Paul did this year only.

We are to concerned with the present and future and are trying to find the next MJ that we over praise the top talents to a fault.

Somebody might go past him, but its not close to happening yet.

fixed.

[Loki]

Meh :ohwell: ... I'll stick with slightly

Hey, no one ever said it was a sin to be wrong. :) :D

[elementally morale]

Knowing I'm in the minority, I'll just say this. My top 10 of all time is as follows:

1) Magic Johnson
2) Michael Jordan
3) Kareem Abdul Jabbar
4) Bill Russell
5) Wilt Chaimberlain
6) Larry Bird
7) Oscar Robertson
8) Hakeem Olajuwon
9) Julius Erving
10) Shaquille O'Neal

I don't intend to argue this, just wanted to let you all know.

[Y2Gezee]

Hey, no one ever said it was a sin to be wrong. :) :D

Lucky for you :oldlol:

[PaPaK]

MJ and prime Shaq are the best and most dominant players in NBA history. Shaq was just insane.. everything after that is debatable but they are the top2 in my opinion. if i had to name another 3 it would be Magic, Bird and Kareem A-J.

and whoever doesnt put Shaq in top 5 at least is crazy. thats all i have to say about that.