Michael Jordan is the GOAT and here is why.

[kgisbigticket]

I am going to still this post from a knowledgeable poster on two other sites. This is how he explains why MJ is the GOAT.

Well let's look at some of the candidates first.

1. MJ (6 Titles, 5 League MVP's, 6 Finals MVP's, Career Leader in PPG Regular Season and Playoffs, and Most Points in Playoffs, etc)
2. Magic (5 Titles, 3 League MVP's, 3 Finals MVP's, # of APG titles)
3. Kareem (6 Titles, 6 League MVP's, 3 Finals MVP's, Career Points leader)
4. Russell (11 Titles, 5 League MVP's)
5. Wilt (2 Titles, 4 League MVP's, 1 Finals MVP)

Close
6. Bird (3 Titles, 3 League MVP's, 2 Finals MVP's)
7. Shaq (4 Titles, 1 League MVP's, 3 Finals MVP's)

So if we break it down, let's go by the following:


League MVP's
6 - Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
5 - Michael Jordan
5 - Bill Russell
4 - Wilt Chamberlain
3 - Larry Bird
3 - Magic Johnson
3 - Moses Malone

Finals MVP's
6 - Michael Jordan
3 - Magic Johnson
3 - Shaquille O'neal
3 - Tim Duncan
2 - Kareem
2- Bird
1 - Wilt
1 - Moses Malone

Championships
11 - Bill Russell
6 - Michael Jordan
6 - Kareem
5 - Magic
4 - Shaq
4 - Duncan
2 - Wilt

Career Stats and Records - Regular Season
APG Leader: Magic
RPG Leader: Wilt
All-time Career Points Leader: Kareem
All-time PPG Leader: M.Jordan

Playoff Stats and Records - Playoffs
Total Assists Leader: Magic Johnson
APG Leader Playoffs: Magic Johnson
Total Rebounds Leader: Bill Russell
RPG Leader Playoffs: Bill Russell
All-time Career Points Leader Playoffs: M.Jordan
All-time PPG Leader Playoffs: M.Jordan

So currently the only players that fit the bill in each category are both MJ's.

Now if you add the fact of Defensive Teams that would eliminate Magic. However, I won't do that to him because he is my 2nd favorite player.

Now if you want you can add in the TSN MVP award as well

TSN MVP
7 - Michael Jordan
6 - Kareem
4 - Wilt
4 - Russell
2 - Moses
2 - Shaq
1 - Hakeem
1 - Magic

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/basketball/nba/2003-02-06-dupree-team_x.htm

http://motownsportsrevival.blogspot.com/2006/12/top-50-basketball-players-of-all-time.html

So Kareem has the most league MVP's, MJ the most Finals MVP's, and Russell the most titles.

MJ is near the top in all of them though as is Russell, but Russell doesn't have the numbers to support him.

Also consider

Kareem won League MVP and Finals MVP in 1971
Magic won League MVP and Finals MVP in 1987
MJ won League MVP and Finals MVP in 1991, 1992, 1996 and 1998.


Now all of that is looking at accolades, so how do we go even further in deciding who is the best as we can't just use titles alone. Well what did they did yearly and in the playoffs?




http://www.answers.com/topic/nba-records

The Playoffs is where you make your name and where greatness is defined. But MJ was more consistent and holds records as well such as:

Highest PPG Average: 30.12
Most seasons leading league in Points: 11
Most scoring titles: 10
Highest PER Efficiency: 27.91

Also, MJ is no doubt the greatest playoff performer and IMO he was the greatest Road Player Ever. Most of his greatest feats happened on the road.

As far as the playoffs go, here are a few things that stuck out in my mind:

Playoffs
Most Points Per Game (min. 25 games)
33.4 by Michael Jordan (179 games)

Most Points in a Game
63 by Michael Jordan

Most 50 Point Games
8 by Michael Jordan

Most 40 Point Games
38 by Michael Jordan

Most 30 Point Games
109 by Michael Jordan

Most 20 Point Games
174 by Michael Jordan (he played 179 playoff games and scored under 20 only 5 times)

These players all lost these series with Homecourt advantage which means they were the favorite. If someone was injured like a main star then that factors in, but if not that doesn't factor in the discussion.



MJ never lost a series with homecourt advantage/better seed/better record. What does that mean, well he was the only superstar to never lose a series in which his team was considered the favorite and better team. All the other legends lost series.

Also consider the following:

Is 18% a good percentage?

In what you might ask... 18% winning percentage...

Pretty awful right?

Well in 60 years of NBA Basketball only 11 league leading scorers have won a championship... That's 18.333333%...

Their names are: Shaquille O'Neal, Michael Jordan, Kareem Abdul Jabbar, George Mikan and some guy named Joe Fulks...

Most of these players were dominant Centers, who did more than just score.

That means that non center players who led the league in scoring have won in an amazing 10% of the time.. and only one player did it... Michael Jordan. In one era. That phenomenon of nature who won six...

10% winning historically!!! 10 PERCENT!!!

I will argue that the odds are against a high scoring guard from winning it all.

Here are the playoff top games.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/basketball/nba/2002/playoffs/top_individual_points/

Top Playoff Single-Game Scoring Performances
Player Team Opponent Total Date
Michael Jordan Chicago at Boston 63 April 20, 1986
Elgin Baylor L.A. Lakers at Boston 61 April 14, 1962
Wilt Chamberlain Philadelphia Syracuse 56 March 22, 1962
Michael Jordan Chicago at Miami 56 April 29, 1992
Charles Barkley Phoenix at Golden State 56 May 4, 1994
Michael Jordan Chicago Cleveland 55 May 1, 1988
Michael Jordan Chicago Phoenix 55 June 16, 1993
Michael Jordan Chicago Washington 55 April 27, 1997
John Havlicek Boston Atlanta 54 April 1, 1973
Michael Jordan Chicago New York 54 May 31, 1993
Allen Iverson Philadelphia Toronto 54 May 9, 2001
Wilt Chamberlain Philadelphia Syracuse 53 March 14, 1960
Jerry West L.A. Lakers Boston 53 April 23, 1969
Jerry West L.A. Lakers Baltimore 52 April 5, 1965
Allen Iverson Philadelphia Toronto 52 May 16, 2001
Sam Jones Boston at New York 51 March 28, 1967
Eric Floyd Golden State L.A. Lakers 51 May 10, 1987
Bob Cousy Boston Syracuse 50* March 21, 1953
Bob Petit St. Louis Boston 50 April 12, 1958
Wilt Chamberlain Philadelphia at Boston 50 March 22, 1950
Wilt Chamberlain San Francisco St. Louis 50 April 10, 1964
Billy Cunningham Philadelphia Milwaukee 50 April 1, 1970
Bob McAdoo Buffalo Washington 50 April 18, 1975
Dominique Wilkins Atlanta Detroit 50 April 19, 1986
Michael Jordan Chicago Cleveland 50 April 28, 1988
Michael Jordan Chicago Cleveland 50^ May 5, 1989
Karl Malone Utah Seattle 50 April 22, 2000
Vince Carter Toronto Philadelphia 50 May 11, 2001
*4 overtimes
^overtime

This is courtesy of NBA on NBC here:

NBA PLAYOFFS HIGH SCORING GAME BY YEAR
1946-47 - 37 Joe Fulks, PHW vs CHI at PHW 16Apr47
1947-48 - 34 Connie Simmons, BLT vs NYK at BLT 27Mar48
1948-49 - 42 George Mikan, MPL vs WSC 4Apr49 @ MPL
1949-50 - 40 George Mikan, MPL vs SYR at MPL 23Apr50
1950-51 - 41 George Mikan, MPL vs IDS at MPL 21Mar51
1951-52 - 47 George Mikan, MPL at ROC 29Mar52
1952-53 - 50 Bob Cousy, BOS vs SYR at BOS 21Mar53
1953-54 - 36 Dolph Schayes, SYR at NYK 21Mar54
1954-55 - 32 Bill Sharman, BOS at SYR 24Mar55
1955-56 - 43 Neil Johnson, PHW at SYR 25Mar56
1956-57 - 42 Bob Leonard, MPL vs STL at MPL 25Mar57
1957-58 - 50 Bob Pettit, STL vs BOS at STL 12Apr58
1958-59 - 40 Cliff Hagan, STL vs MPL at STL 21Mar59
1959-60 - 53 Wilt Chamberlain, PHW vs SYR at PHW 14Mar60
1960-61 - 47 Elgin Baylor, LAL at DET 18Mar61
............... 47 Elgin Baylor, LAL at STL 27Mar61
1961-62 - 61 Elgin Baylor, LAL at BOS 14Apr62
1962-63 - 47 Sam Jones, BOS vs CIN at BOS 10Apr63
1963-64 - 50 Wilt Chamberlain, SFW vs STL at SFW 10Apr64
1964-65 - 52 Jerry West, LAL vs BAL at LAL 3Apr65
1965-66 - 46 Wilt Chamberlain, PHI vs BOS at PHI 12Apr66
1966-67 - 55 Rick Barry, SFW vs PHI at SFW 18Apr67
1967-68 - 46 Zelmo Beaty, STL vs SFW 23Mar68 @ STL
1968-69 - 53 Jerry West, LAL vs BOS at LAL 23Apr69
1969-70 - 50 Billy Cunningham, PHI vs MIL at PHI 1Apr70
1970-71 - 39 Gail Goodrich, LAL at CHI 28Mar71
1971-72 - 43 John Havlicek BOS at ATL 31Mar72
1972-73 - 54 John Havlicek, BOS vs ATL at BOS 1Apr73
1973-74 - 44 Bob McAdoo, BUF vs BOS 6Apr74 at BUF
............... 44 Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, MIL at CHI 18Apr74
1974-75 - 50 Bob McAdoo, BUF vs WAS at BUF 18Apr75
1975-76 - 45 Fred Brown, SEA vs PHO at SEA 15Apr76
1976-77 - 45 Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, LAL vs GSW at LAL 29Apr77
1977-78 - 46 George Gervin, SAN vs WAS at SAN 18Apr78
1978-79 - 42 George Gervin, SAN vs WAS at SAN 11May79
............... 42 George Gervin, SAN at WAS 18May79
1979-80 - 44 George Gervin, SAN vs HOU at SAN 4Apr80
1980-81 - 42 Calvin Murphy, HOU at SAN 17Apr81
............... 42 Moses Malone, HOU vs KCK at HOU 26Apr81
1981-82 - 39 George Gervin, SAN vs LAL at SAN 14May82
............... 39 Andrew Toney, PHI vs BOS at PHI 16May82
1982-83 - 42 Alex English, DEN vs PHO at PHO 24Apr83
............... 42 George Gervin, SAN at DEN 26Apr83
1983-84 - 46 Bernard King, NYK at DET 19Apr84
............... 46 Bernard King, NYK vs DET at NYK 22Apr84
1984-85 - 43 Rolando Blackman, DAL vs POR at DAL 18Apr85
............... 43 Larry Bird, BOS vs DET at BOS 8May85
1985-86 - 63 Michael Jordan, CHI at BOS 20Apr86
1986-87 - 51 Sleepy Floyd, GSW vs LAL at GSW 10May87
1987-88 - 55 Michael Jordan, CHI vs CLE at CHI 1May88
1988-89 - 50 Michael Jordan, CHI vs CLE at CHI 5May89
1989-90 - 49 Michael Jordan, CHI at PHI 11May90
1990-91 - 46 Michael Jordan, CHI at PHI 10May91
1991-92 - 56 Michael Jordan, CHI at MIA 29Apr92
1992-93 - 55 Michael Jordan, CHI vs PHO at CHI 16Jun93
1993-94 - 56 Charles Barkley, PHO at GSW 4May94
1994-95 - 48 Michael Jordan, CHI at CHA 28Apr95
1995-96 - 46 Michael Jordan, CHI at NYK 11May96
1996-97 - 55 Michael Jordan, CHI vs WAS at CHI 27Apr97
1997-98 - 45 Michael Jordan, CHI at UTA 14Jun98
1998-99 - 37 Tim Duncan, SAN at LAL 22May99
............... 37 Scottie Pippen, HOU vs LAL at HOU 13May99
............... 37 Shaquille O'Neal, LAL vs HOU at HOU 15May99
............... 37 Allen Iverson, PHI vs ORL at PHI 15May99
1999-00 - 50 Karl Malone, UTA vs SEA at UTA 22Apr00
-----
ALL-TIME HIGHEST SCORING AVERAGES, NBA PLAYOFFS
Jerry West, LAL vs BAL, 1965..... 46.3
Michael Jordan, CHI vs CLE, 1988..... 45.2
Michael Jordan, CHI vs MIA, 1992..... 45.0

ALL-TIME HIGHEST SCORING AVERAGES, NBA CHAMPIONSHIP SERIES/NBA FINALS
Michael Jordan, CHI vs PHO, 1993..... 41.0
Rick Barry, SFW vs PHI, 1965..... 40.8
Elgin Baylor, LAL vs BOS, 1962..... 40.6


Also MJ has 6 playoffs series where he averaged at least 40 ppg.

[kgisbigticket]

http://www.basketball-reference.com/about/glossary.html

MJ has led in Offensive Win Shares 8x, and was 2nd 1x.


1.) Offensive Win Shares
1984-85 NBA 28.7 (3)
1986-87 NBA 29.0 (4)
1987-88 NBA 39.6 (1)
1988-89 NBA 42.7 (1)
1989-90 NBA 44.3 (1)
1990-91 NBA 40.6 (1)
1991-92 NBA 34.2 (1)
1992-93 NBA 34.1 (1)
1995-96 NBA 38.5 (1)
1996-97 NBA 37.3 (1)
1997-98 NBA 28.6 (2)
NBA 413.5 (1)
Career 413.5 (1)


2.) MJ has led in Win Shares 8x, and was 2nd 1x



Win Shares
1984-85 NBA 40 (3)
1986-87 NBA 43 (4)
1987-88 NBA 58 (1)
1988-89 NBA 59 (1)
1989-90 NBA 59 (1)
1990-91 NBA 56 (1)
1991-92 NBA 51 (1)
1992-93 NBA 50 (1)
1995-96 NBA 57 (1)
1996-97 NBA 52 (1)
1997-98 NBA 45 (2)


3.)



MJ has led in Player Wins 7x, and has finished second 3x including his rookie season.

Player Wins
1984-85 NBA 13.2 (2)
1986-87 NBA 15.9 (1)
1987-88 NBA 17.4 (1)
1988-89 NBA 16.8 (1)
1989-90 NBA 16.0 (1)
1990-91 NBA 15.8 (1)
1991-92 NBA 15.2 (1)
1992-93 NBA 15.4 (2)
1995-96 NBA 15.8 (2)
1996-97 NBA 14.8 (1)
1997-98 NBA 14.2 (2)


No other player in the GOAT discussion has dominated like that. We don't know what Wilt's win shares, player wins would have been, so we can only go by what we know and have, but despite that, Wilt only won twice and only once as a dominant player in the league. Good enough to be 2nd, but not the GOAT especially when one player has dominated like MJ did in the season, playoffs, and finals.

In my mind MJ is the GOAT, and I provided ample evidence of why I feel that way, but it is really close as guys like Kareem, Russell, Wilt, Magic and Bird on right their in the discussion, but when you consider how good MJ was on both ends of the court and how efficient he was as a player and the fact that he was a guard that in itself helps his case much more.


No one ever dominated for a decade in the season, playoffs and finals like MJ. Others may have dominated the season just as good, but not all 3 especially at the same time. Also MJ was depended upon more than any other Legend and that is why he won all of the Finals MVP and also the reason why he is the GOAT.

[poeticism707]

Neither Finals MVPs nor DPOYs were kept when during Russell's tenture, or he'd have 9-11 Finals MVPs to go with 11 DPOYs: not to mention his 11 titles and 6 mvps (in which, if Russell's numbers weren't good enough, why he'd win 6 MVPS?!?).

Bill Russell is the GOAT.

[LJJ]

Didn't Loki have a similar post except better?

[Showtime]

Neither Finals MVPs nor DPOYs were kept when during Russell's tenture, or he'd have 9-11 Finals MVPs to go with 11 DPOYs: not to mention his 11 titles and 6 mvps (in which, if Russell's numbers weren't good enough, why he'd win 6 MVPS?!?).

Bill Russell is the GOAT.
Did you even read the info on MJ's playoff performances? I thought not. His argument wasn't based on just awards.

[kgisbigticket]

Neither Finals MVPs nor DPOYs were kept when during Russell's tenture, or he'd have 9-11 Finals MVPs to go with 11 DPOYs: not to mention his 11 titles and 6 mvps (in which, if Russell's numbers weren't good enough, why he'd win 6 MVPS?!?).

Bill Russell is the GOAT.

He averaged 15 ppg in the 60's which is half of what MJ averaged. If Russell played today he would average 8 ppg. Also only 2 playoff rounds existed for Russell titles (at least 8 of them). Had he played 4 playoff rounds, results would have been different. Unless you prove to me that Russell dominated in the season, playoffs and finals and his numbers were just as good as MJ's then he isn't even close. Russell is currently like 82nd in PER. Not stellar by any means.

[poeticism707]

He averaged 15 ppg in the 60's which is half of what MJ averaged. If Russell played today he would average 8 ppg. Also only 2 playoff rounds existed for Russell titles (at least 8 of them). Had he played 4 playoff rounds, results would have been different. Unless you prove to me that Russell dominated in the season, playoffs and finals and his numbers were just as good as MJ's then he isn't even close. Russell is currently like 82nd in PER. Not stellar by any means.

Russell averaged 15ppg AND 22.5RPG!!!

Are you kidding me? Russell's 22.5rpg CAREER AVERAGE is BY FAR more impressive than MJ's 30ppg scoring average. Add to that his 15ppg, and he more titles than he can wear on both hands (11), etc. he is far and away the GOAT.

Note: Wilt averaged about the same number of rpg for his career, but only two titles WILL NOT GET IT DONE.

I repeat: Bill Russell is the GOAT.

[Kobe Bryant 81]

NO! YOU ALL ARE FOOLS! :mad:


Kobe is the GOAT
:rockon: :rockon: :rockon: :rockon: :rockon: :rockon: :rockon: :rockon: :rockon:

[Bulls08Champs]

MJ is easily the GOAT. No doubt about it.

[kgisbigticket]

Russell averaged 15ppg AND 22.5RPG!!!

Are you kidding me? Russell's 22.5rpg CAREER AVERAGE is BY FAR more impressive than MJ's 30ppg scoring average. Add to that his 15ppg, and he more titles than he can wear on both hands (11), etc. he is far and away the GOAT.

Note: Wilt averaged about the same number of rpg for his career, but only two titles WILL NOT GET IT DONE.

I repeat: Bill Russell is the GOAT.

:oldlol:

That's how you know the era in the 60's was weak. When you average more rebounds than points, than it shows how easy it was to get rebounds. There were only two guys over 6'10" and they were Wilt and Russell. Everyone else was 6'5". Like I said, Russell only played 2 rounds a year to get the title which is much easier not to mention he had 7 other hall of fame players on his team. Russell may be top 5, but nothing greater.

[kgisbigticket]

NO! YOU ALL ARE FOOLS! :mad:


Kobe is the GOAT
:rockon: :rockon: :rockon: :rockon: :rockon: :rockon: :rockon: :rockon: :rockon:

Kobe has never even been the best player in any season in the league. When he got titles he wasn't even the best player on his own team. He has never gotten out of the 1st round as the best player on his own team. He doesn't have a league nor finals mvp at all and never finished in top 2 in PER, Win Shares, Player Wins. Kobe needs to settle for being a top 3 player in the league nowadays or in any given season because he has never been the best in the league ever.

[poeticism707]

:oldlol:

That's how you know the era in the 60's was weak. When you average more rebounds than points, than it shows how easy it was to get rebounds. There were only two guys over 6'10" and they were Wilt and Russell. Everyone else was 6'5". Like I said, Russell only played 2 rounds a year to get the title which is much easier not to mention he had 7 other hall of fame players on his team. Russell may be top 5, but nothing greater.

There were plenty of legit 7' and taller players.

The same can be said of this and Jordan's era:

its weak because it's so easy to score (hence scoring goes up, player averages go up, etc).

[chains5000]

:sleeping

[dejordan]

Neither Finals MVPs nor DPOYs were kept when during Russell's tenture, or he'd have 9-11 Finals MVPs to go with 11 DPOYs: not to mention his 11 titles and 6 mvps (in which, if Russell's numbers weren't good enough, why he'd win 6 MVPS?!?).

Bill Russell is the GOAT.
maybe. no telling. sam jones was their top scorer several years and hit 2 series winning shots. when russell was trying to inbound the ball with a 1 point lead and threw it off his own backboard for a turnover, havlicek famously stole the laker's inbound pass to save the day. cousy was the one who orchestrated one title and then dribbled out the clock (famously again) to get the team a big finals win. since we don't know exactly what russell contributed, and all the clutch plays we know of were performed by other teammates, it seems a bit premature, though not unreasonable, to assume that he would have won the majority of the finals mvps.

i mean look at parker winning it over duncan. duncan clearly did more all-around, but the award went to the guy who carried the scoring burden. might have worked that way back then too. hell, west won a finals mvp on the losing end of a series because he was a big scorer, but never won a regular season mvp. voters seem to value playoff points.

even if he did win all 11 finals mvps that wouldn't mean he actually made as much of an impact in winning them as other performers have. i've heard you argue that duncan's superior defense and comparable though admittedly lesser offense puts him above shaq who was really more one dimensional. well shouldn't other goat candidates with comparable though admittedly lesser defense and undeniable offensive superiority to bill russell count in the same way? one guy is the best at one end and passable at the other. the other guys are the great at both ends (and in some cases the best at one, the other, or both).

you also were happy to point out the other day during a duncan thread that his team lacks superstar help for him and he has won with some of the weaker casts of any champ. so you're not above looking at teammates to help define how well a player performs. well russ had a slew of stars around him. if having less help makes duncan a more impressive champ, does having more help diminish the impressiveness of russ?

a similar question is whether russ is a guy you could build a title around without having all that offensive support. the other night against la, manu and tony were off, and timmy stepped up and carried the load offensively. he could do that. he does do that when he's got a mismatch like turiaf or kwame on him. did russ do that? could russ do that? maybe. my older relatives think russ would be a superior version of duncan if he played today. i'd like some evidence though.

russ's highest playoff production was 22.4 /gm on 46% shooting. he had two teammates scoring above 20 / gm and his points accounted for rouhgly 19% of the team total (119.8 / gm). tim duncan's lowest playoff production (rookie year) was 20.7 / game on 52% shooting. he had zero teammates scoring above 20 per game and his points accounted for 22% of his team's total (94.2 / gm). so russ's best playoff offensive impact was lower than duncan's worst. to compound it, russ earned his numbers playing at a much higher pace. even out the pace and you get 17.9 / game on 46% shooting. in his best year. playing 48 / gm. that's not to say that he couldn't have become better at playing a larger offensive role and couldn't have scored more if he wasn't the defensive anchor on a running team. but when you look at his actual, factual contribution, not his what if contribution, that's what it comes down to. defensive dominance, and 18 pts on very poor shooting for a center. no way does hakeem's (also the best defender of his era) team win with that kind of offensive production from him.

declaring russ the ultimate without asking any of these questions continues to seem a little close-minded to me. please note that i'm not arguing in favor of anyone else in this post, just questioning the merit of bill russell as the undisputed greatest player of all time when he may have been less responsible for his team's titles than other candidates were for theirs.

[Doomsday Dallas]

:sleeping

:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

It kinda is a stupid argument...

MJ is known as the real GOBB.

[dejordan]

There were plenty of legit 7' and taller players.

The same can be said of this and Jordan's era:

its weak because it's so easy to score (hence scoring goes up, player averages go up, etc).
what? the league average was much much higher in the 60s. scoring went down in jordan's era. at least get your anti-mj propaganda right when you spout it. in fact i believe when the math is done, russ's averages in a 90s pace are close to 10 pts and 16 rebounds. not to say he couldn't have improved his game dramatically if he played in the 90s, or become a more conventional center who actually helped his team win by dominating both ends like duncan, shaq, and hakeem, but if you just want to take that ever so impressive 15 (on 44% shooting) and 22 and account for the number of shots taken difference i believe that the math worked out to 10 and 16. or roughly ben wallace.

[VCMVP1551]

Jordan also had the most amazing statistical season.

1986-1987- 37.1 ppg. That is the most amazing scoring season ever.
1987-1988- 35.0 ppg, 3.2 spg, 1.6 bpg, 54 FG%. How could an SG put up that FG% and BPG and how could a scorer put up that many steals?!
1988-1989- 32.5 ppg, 8.0 rpg, 8.0 apg, 54 FG%. Not only an amazing scoring season but an incredible FG% and jaw dropping assist and rebound numbers.
1989-1990- 33.6 ppg, 6.9 rpg, 6.3 apg, 53 FG%, 38 3P%. Not only did he keep up the amazing scoring, assist and rebound numbers but he kept his FG% at an amazing number while shooting an excellent 3P%.
1995-1996- 30.4 ppg, 6.6 rpg, 50 FG% and 43 3P%. Somehow with his minutes lower and at over 30 years old MJ wins the scoring title, puts up great rebound numbers for a guard, shoots 50% despite shooting more jumpers and he shoots 43% on 3's which is amazing for a high scoring SG. He becomes the only player in history to average over 30 ppg and shoot over 43% on 3's in the same season

[poeticism707]

what? the league average was much much higher in the 60s. scoring went down in jordan's era. at least get your anti-mj propaganda right when you spout it. in fact i believe when the math is done, russ's averages in a 90s pace are close to 10 pts and 16 rebounds. not to say he couldn't have improved his game dramatically if he played in the 90s, or become a more conventional center who actually helped his team win by dominating both ends like duncan, shaq, and hakeem, but if you just want to take that ever so impressive 15 (on 44% shooting) and 22 and account for the number of shots taken difference i believe that the math worked out to 10 and 16. or roughly ben wallace.

Of course, if Jordan played in Russell's era, he would eventually be out of the league because he couldn't stop the following infractions:

-traveling
-offensive fouls
-cursing the refs (he would not have lasted in that era with this; he only "got better" in his career because he received more and more respect from refs)
-palming the ball (he'd turn the ball over on VIRTUALLY EVERY possession; if he corrected this, he wouldn't be as effective ball handler)
-no shot clock, meaning other teams could get the lead and stall, and jordan's numbers would DECREASE VASTLY-15ppg maybe?
-likely not as much hero worship, so not as many calls
-hand check allowed, meaning other players could defend him better
-no advanced physical therapy for Jordan during his career- meaning his body breaks down sooner, more injuries, less production in his career
-making a meager salary playing, many players of that time worked another during job the offseason; if Jordan had to work like everyone else, his game would NOT BE HALF WHAT IT WAS, EASY, due to not being able to train in the off-season.

These differences would render Jordan a very different player- not the one you remember.

In essence, put Russell in this era, with his former limitations, he's not the GOAT. Give him Jordan's advantages in this era, he's the GOAT.

Put Jordan in Russell's era, with Russell's limitations, he's not the GOAT.

But based on everyone playing in their own eras, Bill Russell is the GOAT.

[kgisbigticket]

There were plenty of legit 7' and taller players.

The same can be said of this and Jordan's era:

its weak because it's so easy to score (hence scoring goes up, player averages go up, etc).

Actually it is much tougher as the pace is much slower which allows defenses to get more on you and the mpg played for player is much lower.

Also if Russell was so good, explain how he shot 44% for his career? That's pathetic for a Center.

[kgisbigticket]

Of course, if Jordan played in Russell's era, he would eventually be out of the league because he couldn't stop the following infractions:

-traveling
-offensive fouls
-cursing the refs (he would not have lasted in that era with this; he only "got better" in his career because he received more and more respect from refs)
-palming the ball (he'd turn the ball over on VIRTUALLY EVERY possession; if he corrected this, he wouldn't be as effective ball handler)
-no shot clock, meaning other teams could get the lead and stall, and jordan's numbers would DECREASE VASTLY-15ppg maybe?
-likely not as much hero worship, so not as many calls
-hand check allowed, meaning other players could defend him better
-no advanced physical therapy for Jordan during his career- meaning his body breaks down sooner, more injuries, less production in his career
-making a meager salary playing, many players of that time worked another during job the offseason; if Jordan had to work like everyone else, his game would NOT BE HALF WHAT IT WAS, EASY, due to not being able to train in the off-season.

These differences would render Jordan a very different player- not the one you remember.

In essence, put Russell in this era, with his former limitations, he's not the GOAT. Give him Jordan's advantages in this era, he's the GOAT.

Put Jordan in Russell's era, with Russell's limitations, he's not the GOAT.

But based on everyone playing in their own eras, Bill Russell is the GOAT.


Bill Russell is a combination of Dikembe Mutombo and Marcus Camby. A guy who is a Center and who never finished top 10 in PER is not the GOAT. Russell is no where near GOAT. David Robinson was even better than Russell.

[kgisbigticket]

Also the guy with the most rings doesn't make the best player. the best player is a guy who has a combination of winning and dominance in all facets of the game. MJ is that player. Magic said that Russell was the greatest winner, while MJ is the Greatest Player.

[glidedrxlr22]

Good thread KG. Nice homework. :applause:

[mlh1981]

A rare breed of player. You take someone that has just out-of-this-world talent, and not only that, but a superhuman work ethic. Take those two things, and add in his leadership qualities, intangibles, marketability, and what you have is something that will probably never be duplicated again. There are players in the NBA currently who may be as talented as a prime MJ, but they don't have the work ethic, good health, right team situation, or intangibles needed to TRULY be on his level. Then again, never been a big fan of comparing players from different eras, because the rules of the game/competition differ greatly..........

[YAWN]

Good thread KG. Nice homework. :applause:
plagiarizing someone elses thoughts, good job.

this thread is pointless and by having proven morons like kgisbigticket post this, it somehow diminishes mjs accomplishments for at least a couple seconds.

[clipps]

This thread is retarded. What are you gunna post next? How Antarctica's the coldest continent on the planet?

[poeticism707]

This thread is retarded. What are you gunna post next? How Antarctica's the coldest continent on the planet?

I was getting to that.

[dejordan]

poet, i'm not factoring in what russell would be like in this league. i'm not talking about what i think or conjecture that changes in rules or whatever would do to him. for the record i think he would improve dramatically with conditioning and the ability to learn form modern players. what i am doing is a perfectly reasonable factoring of pace between the two eras to make the statitistics more comparable. here's one for you:

russell's best rebounding season he averaged 24.7 boards per game.

his team shot 8770 fgas and made 3619. that's a total of 5151 rebounds available. so assuming the other team shoots a similar percentage (was probably worse thanks to russ's d) we can say he had a number close to that of available rebounds for the season. divide that number by 48 min per game and 80games in the season and that comes to a 1.34 available rebound / min rate.

russell got 1930 rebounds that year in 3482 minutes of play (44.6 min / gm in 78 games). so multiplying the minutes he played by the available rebounding rate means that he had the opportunity to rebound 4666 avaiblable rebounds. divide his actual rebounds by his available rebounds and you get 41.4% of available boards were taken by russ.

now in 1996 the bulls took 6892 fgas and made 3293 of them. that's a total of 3599 rebounds available. divide by 82 game and 48 minutes and you get 0.91 available rebounds / minute.

multiply available rebound / minute rate from 96 by russ's minutes played and that's 3169 rebounds available to russ. he rebounds 41.4% of misses. so he actually pulls down a total of 1312 rebounds. divide that by the 72 games played and he has 16.8 rebounds per game.

by comparison rodman grabbed 48.5% of the available rebounds in his minutes of play. at the 62 league rebound rate he would have had of 1.34 available per minute, and playing the same 2088 minutes he did in 96, his total rebounds would be 1357. divide that by his 64 games played, and he has 21 rebound per game average.

all i did was factor for the number of available rebounds per game in the 60 versus the 90s on the two best teams. everything is still a fact. no one is being smeared as a person or a player, but the numbers are more representative of the eras when making comparisons. this is what analysts have to do compare stats across eras.

[Kblaze8855]

Russell is currently like 82nd in PER. Not stellar by any means.

Numbers at the time are incomplete and many of his best aspects were not fully counted. How high do you think his numbers would be if they counted his full 19/25/8-10 blocks and 6 assists(probably 8-10 by our standards...if a player had to dribble to score back then you dont get the assist) in his prime? Steals too. No steals. I imagine his blocks, steals, and extra assists would more than make up for any turnovers. Just didnt have the stats to record all that a defensive first player did.

[VCMVP1551]

Russell in todays game would probably average in his prime 12-14 ppg, 13-15 rpg, 4-5 apg, 3-4 bpg.

[Smokee]

I dont know why an argument needs to be made that he even is the GOAT. He is. You cant design a more perfect NBA player even if you could get on your computer load up NBA Live and create a player from top to bottom he wouldnt end up more perfect of a model of the perfect NBA player than MJ, when it comes to a guard at least.

Just from every aspect: fluid movement, athleticism, drive, jumper, just in terms of every fascet of a bball player it cant get much better than MJ period.

[lakers_forever]

I agree that Jordan is the GOAT.

But, I can't deny that a case can be made for the following players :

Magic
Chamberlain
Jabbar
Russelll
Bird

Pick any of those players and your choice would have strong arguments.

[Kblaze8855]

poet, i'm not factoring in what russell would be like in this league. i'm not talking about what i think or conjecture that changes in rules or whatever would do to him. for the record i think he would improve dramatically with conditioning and the ability to learn form modern players. what i am doing is a perfectly reasonable factoring of pace between the two eras to make the statitistics more comparable. here's one for you:

Kinda depends on which seasons are used. The league average in Russells first MVP year was 106ppg. In Jordans first MVP year it was 108. It was 110 in 1987. 111 in 1964 which ive heard Russell call his best year. The highest scoring 60 year was in the 116-118 range I think. The highest scoring team ever was in the 80s though. The worst defensive team ever was in 1991 giving up 131 points a game(I know it was an unusual situation though).

Im not saying that there were not more numbers to be had in the 60s just that the 80s were closer to the 60s than some would assume. The 80s were probably closer to the 60s in pace than the late 90s to now are to the 80s pace.

[dejordan]

Kinda depends on which seasons are used. The league average in Russells first MVP year was 106ppg. In Jordans first MVP year it was 108. It was 110 in 1987. 111 in 1964 which ive heard Russell call his best year. The highest scoring 60 year was in the 116-118 range I think. The highest scoring team ever was in the 80s though. The worst defensive team ever was in 1991 giving up 131 points a game(I know it was an unusual situation though).

Im not saying that there were not more numbers to be had in the 60s just that the 80s were closer to the 60s than some would assume. The 80s were probably closer to the 60s in pace than the late 90s to now are to the 80s pace.
it's not about scoring though blaze. it's about fgas and, more importantly, missed shots. shooting perecentages back then were really low. i wasn't really concerned with jordan's numbers because they aren't comparable to russells. that's why i used one of the years that rodman led the league in rebounding for comparison. the important thing isn't even the total numbers, just the percentage of available boards taken in minutes played.

[poeticism707]

poet, i'm not factoring in what russell would be like in this league. i'm not talking about what i think or conjecture that changes in rules or whatever would do to him. for the record i think he would improve dramatically with conditioning and the ability to learn form modern players. what i am doing is a perfectly reasonable factoring of pace between the two eras to make the statitistics more comparable. here's one for you:

russell's best rebounding season he averaged 24.7 boards per game.

his team shot 8770 fgas and made 3619. that's a total of 5151 rebounds available. so assuming the other team shoots a similar percentage (was probably worse thanks to russ's d) we can say he had a number close to that of available rebounds for the season. divide that number by 48 min per game and 80games in the season and that comes to a 1.34 available rebound / min rate.

russell got 1930 rebounds that year in 3482 minutes of play (44.6 min / gm in 78 games). so multiplying the minutes he played by the available rebounding rate means that he had the opportunity to rebound 4666 avaiblable rebounds. divide his actual rebounds by his available rebounds and you get 41.4% of available boards were taken by russ.

now in 1996 the bulls took 6892 fgas and made 3293 of them. that's a total of 3599 rebounds available. divide by 82 game and 48 minutes and you get 0.91 available rebounds / minute.

multiply available rebound / minute rate from 96 by russ's minutes played and that's 3169 rebounds available to russ. he rebounds 41.4% of misses. so he actually pulls down a total of 1312 rebounds. divide that by the 72 games played and he has 16.8 rebounds per game.

by comparison rodman grabbed 48.5% of the available rebounds in his minutes of play. at the 62 league rebound rate he would have had of 1.34 available per minute, and playing the same 2088 minutes he did in 96, his total rebounds would be 1357. divide that by his 64 games played, and he has 21 rebound per game average.

all i did was factor for the number of available rebounds per game in the 60 versus the 90s on the two best teams. everything is still a fact. no one is being smeared as a person or a player, but the numbers are more representative of the eras when making comparisons. this is what analysts have to do compare stats across eras.

It was not my intent to smear Jordan, at all. I was only bringing up the real, day to day difficulties/rules that Russell face during his time. Again, it is beyond foolish (and I do not) assume that Russell would be the GOAT today without all the benefits of today. Inversely, I do not think Jordan could, with all the factors mentioned, be the GOAT of Russell's days with all the limitations (and others) I mentioned.

Regarding the numbers, KBlaze brings up an excellent point. Most notably, that the numbers of the day, namely defensive statistics (obviously blocks weren't recorded until- '71?) and assists were done were done differently than today. Meaning a player and his numbers would suffer because the varying ideas about assists, blocks not being recorded, etc.

Also, that Russell averaged a certain percentage of total rebounds in his career, and that Rodman rebounded comparably, I understand, and it is reasonable. However, we must examine examine one Russell's contemporaries in order to better understand Russell.

That contemporary is none other than Wilt Chamberlain. As you are no doubt aware, Wilt averaged about 30ppg and 22.9rpg over his career. His highest scoring season, he averaged 50.1ppg (!). My reason for bringing these numbers up is this: if we are to scale back Russell's numbers (comparably speaking), we must do so to Wilt as well, as they were nemises in the same era. I have no analytical evidence, no reason to assume to that Wilt would be a dominate player today, other than his past performance. But what of Russell? Is it fair to assume one will and the other won't? Why would assume that the more successful (Russell) would be less so, and the less successful (Wilt) would be more so? They are hardly exact replicas of one anotehr, but great players nonetheless.

As to the points KBlaze, the basketball historian, brought up, I ask this: why compare the 50s-60s to the 90s, the beginning of the Jordan era? If they compare more evenly to the 80s (maybe even favorably, insofar as is increasing Russell's and Wilt's numbers is concerned), why not do so? Since they are both mentioned as more high scoring eras, would it be a more true comparison than the 90s, a lower scoring era? My point is that it would only be fair to Russell's era if were compared to one similarly as much as possible (and scoring wise, that seems to be the 80s).

[dejordan]

It was not my intent to smear Jordan, at all. I was only bringing up the real, day to day difficulties/rules that Russell face during his time. Again, it is beyond foolish (and I do not) assume that Russell would be the GOAT today without all the benefits of today. Inversely, I do not think Jordan could, with all the factors mentioned, be the GOAT of Russell's days with all the limitations (and others) I mentioned.

Regarding the numbers, KBlaze brings up an excellent point. Most notably, that the numbers of the day, namely defensive statistics (obviously blocks weren't recorded until- '71?) and assists were done were done differently than today. Meaning a player and his numbers would suffer because the varying ideas about assists, blocks not being recorded, etc.

Also, that Russell averaged a certain percentage of total rebounds in his career, and that Rodman rebounded comparably, I understand, and it is reasonable. However, we must examine examine one Russell's contemporaries in order to better understand Russell.

That contemporary is none other than Wilt Chamberlain. As you are no doubt aware, Wilt averaged about 30ppg and 22.9rpg over his career. His highest scoring season, he averaged 50.1ppg (!). My reason for bringing these numbers up is this: if we are to scale back Russell's numbers (comparably speaking), we must do so to Wilt as well, as they were nemises in the same era. I have to analytical evidence, buit I have no reason to assume to that Wilt would be a dominate player today, other than his past performance. But what of Russell? Is it fair to assume one will and the other won't? Why would assume that the more successful (Russell) would be less so, and the less successful (Wilt) would be more so? They are hardly exact replicas of one anotehr, but great players nonetheless.

As to the points KBlaze, the basketball historian, brought up, I ask this: why compare the 50s-60s to the 90s, the beginning of the Jordan era? If they compare more evenly to the 80s (maybe even favorably, insofar as is increasing Russell's and Wilt's numbers is concerned), why not do so? Since they are both mentioned as more high scoring eras, would it be a more true comparison than the 90s, a lower scoring era? My point is that it would only be fair to Russell's era if were compared to one similarly as much as possible (and scoring wise, that seems to be the 80s).
i didn't start comparing stats across the eras. you compared jordan's 30 points / game to russell's 22.5 rebound / game and decided that russell obviously won that in a landslide (i believe you used a number of capitol letters to make your point) and implicitly that getting 22.5 rebounds in russell's time is the same as getting 22.5 rebounds in today's day and age. it isn't. there are fewer rebounds available. i did the math to make that clear.

i actually selected the year for russell by taking his highest rebounding year. i selected the chicago year at random. but does it not say something that if russell was rebounding at his absolute peak, his 22.5 is scaled back to 17 in 1996 while playing far more minutes than rodman? actually i just checked against 1988. going by the bull's season, the available rebound rate is actually lower than in 96. the team missed 3581 shots in total. divided out the rebound rate comes to 0.90. like i said to blaze, it's not about the total points. it's about the number of misses.

and of course i agree that the same factors should be considered when weighing wilt's stats. or any era against any other era. i actually don't think stats should make that big of an impression and am more inclined to view things from smokee's perspective of admiring what you see on the court and making your opinion up based on those observations. that's why i have no problem leaving it open-ended that players from the past could be the goat. i didn't see enough of them to form an opinion one way or the other.

[poeticism707]

i didn't start comparing stats across the eras. you compared jordan's 30 points / game to russell's 22.5 rebound / game and decided that russell obviously won that in a landslide (i believe you used a number of capitol letters to make your point) and implicitly that getting 22.5 rebounds in russell's time is the same as getting 22.5 rebounds in today's day and age. it isn't. there are fewer rebounds available. i did the math to make that clear.

i actually selected the year for russell by taking his highest rebounding year. i selected the chicago year at random. but does it not say something that if russell was rebounding at his absolute peak, his 22.5 is scaled back to 17 in 1996 while playing far more minutes than rodman? actually i just checked against 1988. going by the bull's season, the available rebound rate is actually lower than in 96. the team missed 3581 shots in total. divided out the rebound rate comes to 0.90. like i said to blaze, it's not about the total points. it's about the number of misses.

and of course i agree that the same factors should be considered when weighing wilt's stats. or any era against any other era. i actually don't think stats should make that big of an impression and am more inclined to view things from smokee's perspective of admiring what you see on the court and making your opinion up based on those observations. that's why i have no problem leaving it open-ended that players from the past could be the goat. i didn't see enough of them to form an opinion one way or the other.

Excellent points as always.

Regarding the fact that they are less missed FG, is that because FG% has gotten progresively higher, for the most part? If so, better equipment, better training, diets, off-season training, etc have had an effect on this as well.

Of course you are aware of this (as you stated recently that the players of today "stand on the shoulders of those of yesterday).

[dejordan]

Excellent points as always.

Regarding the fact that they are less missed FG, is that because FG% has gotten progresively higher, for the most part? If so, better equipment, better training, diets, off-season training, etc have had an effect on this as well.

Of course you are aware of this (as you stated recently that the players of today "stand on the shoulders of those of yesterday).
i agree 100%. like i said, i think russ would be a very different player with the modern advantages in training and the ability to learn from the greats. i'm just trying to point out that direct statistical comparisons across eras are not necessarily safe ways to make judgement calls.

[Psileas]

Trying to force opinions up our throats once again?
OK, let me force something more:


Finals MVP's
6 - Michael Jordan
3 - Magic Johnson
3 - Shaquille O'neal
3 - Tim Duncan
2 - Kareem
2- Bird
1 - Wilt
1 - Moses Malone

7-9 - Bill Russell. I know people like you want to ignore this, but Russell was the actual MVP in more Finals' series than anyone ever.
Also, Wilt has actually 2, along with the one in 1967.

And you convincingly left out DPOY, it being an award Russell and Wilt would dominate if it existed.


Career Stats and Records - Regular Season
APG Leader: Magic
RPG Leader: Wilt
All-time Career Points Leader: Kareem
All-time PPG Leader: M.Jordan

Playoff Stats and Records - Playoffs
Total Assists Leader: Magic Johnson
APG Leader Playoffs: Magic Johnson
Total Rebounds Leader: Bill Russell
RPG Leader Playoffs: Bill Russell
All-time Career Points Leader Playoffs: M.Jordan
All-time PPG Leader Playoffs: M.Jordan

Blocked shots not available. Either Wilt or Russell could lead both R.S and P.O in this category. If Wilt was the R.S leader, BTW, that would give him the all-time lead in 2 categories...No, actually make it 4, because Wilt is the total rebounding leader, which you omitted. If Russell was the P.O leader in blocks, that would give him 3-4 leads, as well.


Now if you want you can add in the TSN MVP award as well

TSN MVP
7 - Michael Jordan
6 - Kareem
4 - Wilt
4 - Russell
2 - Moses
2 - Shaq
1 - Hakeem
1 - Magic

TSN or whatever else is not an official MVP. What's gonna follow then? S.I MVP? Associated Press MVP? SLAM MVP?


MJ is near the top in all of them though as is Russell, but Russell doesn't have the numbers to support him.

What are these "numbers"? If numbers=scoring alone, then maybe, but only streetball fans would really argue so. Russell brought you 15 points, 23 rebounds, 4 assists and possibly about 2 steals and 6+ blocks every night.

He didn't have the numbers, he says...

The Playoffs is where you make your name and where greatness is defined. But MJ was more consistent and holds records as well such as:


Highest PPG Average: 30.12
Most seasons leading league in Points: 11
Most scoring titles: 10
Highest PER Efficiency: 27.91

PER would possibly belong to Wilt, had everything being counted back then, despite the fact that assists are underrated (thus underrating his 1967, 1968 seasons) and when it comes to general rebounding, it doesn't care as much about how much you dominate compared to the rest of the league (meaning that altering the average league rebounding numbers changes the overall PER value very little, even if we give extremely low figures to the rest of the league) as how much you dominate in offensive rebounding.
Scoring is really close as well, and we all know Wilt would remain at No1 if he knew that some guy in the future was to break his record by 0.05 ppg.


These players all lost these series with Homecourt advantage which means they were the favorite. If someone was injured like a main star then that factors in, but if not that doesn't factor in the discussion.

MJ never lost a series with homecourt advantage/better seed/better record. What does that mean, well he was the only superstar to never lose a series in which his team was considered the favorite and better team. All the other legends lost series.

Again, Bill Russell only lost in 1958 when he got injured.

Also, to respond with some counter-factoids, when it comes to Game 7's, Russell is the only real GOAT candidate who never lost such a game. The next greatest player who never lost a Game 7 is Shaq, but Shaq got swept like 5-6 times. Russell never did. Any other GOAT candidate go swept at least once.


Also MJ has 6 playoffs series where he averaged at least 40 ppg.

Five. Again, another factoid to counter this: Wilt averaged at least 30/20 in 7 playoff series.


No other player in the GOAT discussion has dominated like that. We don't know what Wilt's win shares, player wins would have been, so we can only go by what we know and have, but despite that, Wilt only won twice and only once as a dominant player in the league.

You see, you want to have it both ways. You recognise that all these (unofficial) stats didn't exist in Wilt's and Russell's eras, then you go on and say that no-one dominated as much. Sorry, can't have it.

[Psileas]

There were only two guys over 6'10" and they were Wilt and Russell. Everyone else was 6'5".

Honesly, I'll put into ignore any fool who will try to use this blatant lie once again. Especially someone who comes from a board where it was repeatedly proved how much of a lie it is.


Bill Russell is a combination of Dikembe Mutombo and Marcus Camby. A guy who is a Center and who never finished top 10 in PER is not the GOAT. Russell is no where near GOAT. David Robinson was even better than Russell.

Completely wrong, again: Russell finished top-10 in PER 8 times, despite not having available one of his 2 strongest statistical categories.

As for the Mutombo, Camby crap, I won't even miss my valuable seconds to educate someone who really believes so.

[dejordan]

Trying to force opinions up our throats once again?
OK, let me force something more:



7-9 - Bill Russell. I know people like you want to ignore this, but Russell was the actual MVP in more Finals' series than anyone ever.
Also, Wilt has actually 2, along with the one in 1967.

And you convincingly left out DPOY, it being an award Russell and Wilt would dominate if it existed.



Blocked shots not available. Either Wilt or Russell could lead both R.S and P.O in this category. If Wilt was the R.S leader, BTW, that would give him the all-time lead in 2 categories...No, actually make it 4, because Wilt is the total rebounding leader, which you omitted. If Russell was the P.O leader in blocks, that would give him 3-4 leads, as well.



TSN or whatever else is not an official MVP. What's gonna follow then? S.I MVP? Associated Press MVP? SLAM MVP?



What are these "numbers"? If numbers=scoring alone, then maybe, but only streetball fans would really argue so. Russell brought you 15 points, 23 rebounds, 4 assists and possibly about 2 steals and 6+ blocks every night.

He didn't have the numbers, he says...

The Playoffs is where you make your name and where greatness is defined. But MJ was more consistent and holds records as well such as:



PER would possibly belong to Wilt, had everything being counted back then, despite the fact that assists are underrated (thus underrating his 1967, 1968 seasons) and when it comes to general rebounding, it doesn't care as much about how much you dominate compared to the rest of the league (meaning that altering the average league rebounding numbers changes the overall PER value very little, even if we give extremely low figures to the rest of the league) as how much you dominate in offensive rebounding.
Scoring is really close as well, and we all know Wilt would remain at No1 if he knew that some guy in the future was to break his record by 0.05 ppg.



Again, Bill Russell only lost in 1958 when he got injured.

Also, to respond with some counter-factoids, when it comes to Game 7's, Russell is the only real GOAT candidate who never lost such a game. The next greatest player who never lost a Game 7 is Shaq, but Shaq got swept like 5-6 times. Russell never did. Any other GOAT candidate go swept at least once.



Five. Again, another factoid to counter this: Wilt averaged at least 30/20 in 7 playoff series.



You see, you want to have it both ways. You recognise that all these (unofficial) stats didn't exist in Wilt's and Russell's eras, then you go on and say that no-one dominated as much. Sorry, can't have it.
agreed. you can't site awards and stats that didn't exist in the past and hold those against players from other eras. or for that matter maybe if there's a dpoy to give to russ, voters give that one to him and the mvp to a wilt or a west or an oscar. we don't know, and it's pointless to conjecture. to make an argument for goat you can't just use awards and you can't just use stats.

[Jasper]

Thread starter - A big thanks for all the stats , or who ever created the GOAT profile.
No doubt MJ is the guy .

Once a year I pull up some stat or another of thy Airness , and it's mind boggling. Let's put it this way , I am very glad I was able to see his 72 win season with his teammates ... yea they had a few losses - but they were PERFECT.

I figured out once , when in his final year with the Bull's (I think his salary was 35m+) any case just ONE of his jump shots was worth more than I made in a years salary.

[Scott Pippen]

I figured out once , when in his final year with the Bull's (I think his salary was 35m+) any case just ONE of his jump shots was worth more than I made in a years salary.

wow:lol

[Godfather]

Give credit where credit is deserved...Do not copy and paste information and act as if you did some work.

Way to state the obvious.

http://www.bluelinecomics.com/pictures/Capt.%20Obvious%20Banner...%20kinda%20big.jpg

[juju151111]

Of course, if Jordan played in Russell's era, he would eventually be out of the league because he couldn't stop the following infractions:

-traveling
-offensive fouls
-cursing the refs (he would not have lasted in that era with this; he only "got better" in his career because he received more and more respect from refs)
-palming the ball (he'd turn the ball over on VIRTUALLY EVERY possession; if he corrected this, he wouldn't be as effective ball handler)
-no shot clock, meaning other teams could get the lead and stall, and jordan's numbers would DECREASE VASTLY-15ppg maybe?
-likely not as much hero worship, so not as many calls
-hand check allowed, meaning other players could defend him better
-no advanced physical therapy for Jordan during his career- meaning his body breaks down sooner, more injuries, less production in his career
-making a meager salary playing, many players of that time worked another during job the offseason; if Jordan had to work like everyone else, his game would NOT BE HALF WHAT IT WAS, EASY, due to not being able to train in the off-season.

These differences would render Jordan a very different player- not the one you remember.

In essence, put Russell in this era, with his former limitations, he's not the GOAT. Give him Jordan's advantages in this era, he's the GOAT.

Put Jordan in Russell's era, with Russell's limitations, he's not the GOAT.

But based on everyone playing in their own eras, Bill Russell is the GOAT.
Dumbest post i have ever read in my whole life.

[bleedinpurpleTwo]

KAJ

[highwhey]

Dwight is goat, after the superman dunk I'm convinced he is goat.

[Hotlantadude81]

People have done went over all of this f*ckin shyt 1,000 + times.

[ruslan]

wow dude u have a lot of time on ur hands to state the ****ing obvious. lol

[sixerfan82]

where's that famous kblaze post with the stackhouse game, the wizards injuries numbers, the pre 93 numbers, etc

that post should be stickied for situations such as this

[Sir Charles]

There are many undeserved MVPs (which are market tool) and Championships are determined by having the Better Team not by being the Best Player:rolleyes: :hammerhead: .

George Best was superior to Cryuff, Platini but the media does not mention it because he was from Wales and never played 1 singe World Cup. There are many overrated players in Team Sports that get hype because they played in Greater Teams with Greater Supporting Casts.

Just as Rolandhino overhyped (even having a Great Team in Barcelona and in his National Team) is alaways compared to Zidane and he is not even close:rolleyes: .

To me Greateness of a Player is PER AND EFF. Ofcourse this also is helped by having Greater Teamates.

Jordan is definetly the Greatest Shooting Guard Ever but I don`t know about Goat. Especially when you have Stern trying to promote and Markert Jordan the way he did in the 90s after even eliminating the handchecking and 3 second rule to make it easier for Off Guards and Perimeter Players that Penetrate to the Basket. Modeling everything for Jordan-like Players.

Jordan is the Greatest SG Ever but Greatest Player Ever that can be argued tehre are other many great players that where not SGs and did Great

Career EFF Leaders

http://www.basketballreference.com/leaders/leaderscareer.htm?stat=eff&lg=n

Player EFF Seasons

1 Wilt Chamberlain 41.50 14
2 Bill Russell 31.71 13
3 Oscar Robertson 31.61 14
4 Bob Pettit 31.11 11
5 Kareem Abdul-jabbar 30.93 20
6 Larry Bird 29.77 13
7 Elgin Baylor 29.74 14
8 Michael Jordan 29.19 15
9 Magic Johnson 29.10 13
10 Charles Barkley 28.16 16

11 Jerry Lucas 28.13 11
12 Shaquille O'neal 27.59 16
13 Hakeem Olajuwon 27.17 18
14 Kevin Garnett 27.13 13
15 Jerry West 27.10 14
16 David Robinson 26.98 14
17 Karl Malone 26.94 19
18 Tim Duncan 26.59 11
19 LeBron James 26.46 5
20 Walt Bellamy 26.29 14

21 Dave Cowens 26.23 11
22 Maurice Stokes 25.75 3
23 Bob Lanier 25.29 14
24 Bob McAdoo 24.47 14
25 Elton Brand 24.37 9
26 Dirk Nowitzki 24.25 10
27 Moses Malone 24.14 19
28 Willis Reed 24.06 10
29 Elvin Hayes 24.04 16
30 Rick Barry 23.98 10

31 Nate Thurmond 23.73 14
32 Chris Webber 23.72 15
33 Wes Unseld 23.70 13
34 Shawn Marion 23.52 9
35 Chris Paul 23.51 3
36 Billy Cunningham 23.51 9
37 Patrick Ewing 23.41 17
38 Julius Erving 23.35 11
39 Neil Johnston 23.23 8
40 Brad Daugherty 23.10 8

41 Artis Gilmore 22.99 12
42 Dwyane Wade 22.95 5
43 Amare Stoudemire 22.85 6
44 Walt Frazier 22.74 13
45 Gus Johnson 22.63 9
46 Adrian Dantley 22.60 15
47 Kobe Bryant 22.42 12
48 Clyde Drexler 22.42 15
49 Dwight Howard 22.26 4
50 Larry Nance 22.14 13

51 Bill Walton 22.13 10
52 Dolph Schayes 22.10 15
53 George Gervin 22.07 10
54 Dan Issel 21.91 9
55 Pau Gasol 21.91 7
56 Yao Ming 21.90 6
57 Jeff Ruland 21.71 8
58 George Mikan 21.58 7
59 Allen Iverson 21.56 12
60 Kevin Johnson 21.56 12
61 Clark Kellogg 21.55 5
62 Bailey Howell 21.53 12
63 Carlos Boozer 21.49 6
64 Paul Pierce 21.45 10
65 Marques Johnson 21.44 11
66 Chris Bosh 21.41 5
67 Dominique Wilkins 21.26 15
68 Paul Arizin 21.26 10
69 Connie Hawkins 21.25 7
70 Vince Carter 21.16 10
71 Tracy McGrady 21.10 11
72 Grant Hill 21.09 13
73 Pete Maravich 20.98 10
74 Jason Kidd 20.95 14
75 Spencer Haywood 20.84 12
76 Jack Sikma 20.83 14
77 John Stockton 20.80 19
78 John Havlicek 20.68 16
79 Kevin McHale 20.44 13
80 Alex English 20.40 15
81 George McGinnis 20.26 7
82 Isiah Thomas 20.22 13
83 Elmore Smith 20.20 8
84 Carmelo Anthony 20.16 5
85 Dave Debusschere 20.14 12
86 Bob Dandridge 20.03 13
87 Lamar Odom 19.94 9
88 Zelmo Beaty 19.92 8
89 Gilbert Arenas 19.91 7
90 Rudy Tomjanovich 19.77 11
91 Alonzo Mourning 19.77 15
92 Sidney Wicks 19.76 10
93 Bill Bridges 19.73 13
94 Happy Hairston 19.65 11
95 Dan Roundfield 19.60 11
96 Bernard King 19.60 14
97 Alex Groza 19.53 2
98 Scottie Pippen 19.50 17
99 Dave Bing 19.33 12
100 Nate Archibald 19.24 13

Career Leaders and Records for Player Efficiency Rating

http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/per_career.html

Rank Player PER

1. Michael Jordan 27.91
2. Shaquille O'Neal 27.14
3. David Robinson 26.18
4. Wilt Chamberlain* 26.13
5. Bob Pettit* 25.37
6. LeBron James 25.17
7. Tim Duncan 25.10
8. Neil Johnston* 24.67
9. Charles Barkley* 24.63
10. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar* 24.58

11. Magic Johnson* 24.11
12. Kevin Garnett 23.93
13. Dirk Nowitzki 23.92
14. Karl Malone 23.90
15. Hakeem Olajuwon* 23.59
16. Julius Erving* 23.57
17. Kobe Bryant 23.57
18. Larry Bird* 23.50
19. Tracy McGrady 23.38
20. Oscar Robertson* 23.18

21. Jerry West* 22.90
22. Elgin Baylor* 22.70
23. Elton Brand 22.69
24. Moses Malone* 22.00
25. Dolph Schayes* 21.94
26. John Stockton 21.83
27. Pau Gasol 21.70
28. Bob Lanier* 21.69
29. Clyde Lovellette* 21.67
30. Vince Carter 21.65

31. Dominique Wilkins* 21.56
32. Adrian Dantley* 21.51
33. Harry Gallatin* 21.45
34. Allen Iverson 21.42
35. Artis Gilmore 21.39
36. Dan Issel* 21.39
37. George Gervin* 21.38
38. Paul Pierce 21.37
39. Alonzo Mourning 21.24
40. Rick Barry* 21.10

41. Clyde Drexler* 21.07
42. Patrick Ewing* 21.01
43. Chris Webber 20.94
44. Grant Hill 20.88
45. Shawn Marion 20.80
46. Gilbert Arenas 20.74
47. John Drew 20.74
48. Bob McAdoo* 20.73
49. Kevin Johnson 20.70
50. George Yardley* 20.52

51. Ed Macauley* 20.35
52. Marques Johnson 20.11
53. Michael Redd 20.11
54. Steve Nash 20.07
55. George McGinnis 20.04
56. Billy Cunningham* 20.04
57. Mel Daniels 20.02
58. Kevin McHale* 20.02
59. Connie Hawkins* 19.94

60. Ray Allen 19.94
61. Larry Nance 19.92
62. David Thompson* 19.90
63. Alex English* 19.87
64. Walt Bellamy* 19.84
65. Cliff Hagan* 19.83
66. Andrei Kirilenko 19.82
67. Bob Cousy* 19.74
68. Terrell Brandon 19.69
69. Paul Arizin* 19.66
70. Mark Price 19.61

71. Sam Cassell 19.48
72. Paul Westphal 19.43
73. Zydrunas Ilgauskas 19.36
74. Robert Parish* 19.22
75. Bernard King 19.18
76. Walt Frazier* 19.12
77. Bailey Howell* 19.11
78. Spencer Haywood 19.11
79. Shawn Kemp 19.08
80. Walter Davis 19.07

81. Shareef Abdur-Rahim 19.03
82. Mark Aguirre 19.02
83. Larry Jones 19.02
84. Chauncey Billups 19.00
85. Stephon Marbury 18.92
86. Gary Payton 18.88
87. Bill Russell* 18.88
88. Jerry Lucas* 18.86
89. Brad Daugherty 18.85

90. World B. Free 18.78
91. Chris Mullin 18.78
92. Zelmo Beaty 18.77
93. Jermaine O'Neal 18.73
94. Jason Kidd 18.70
95. Sidney Moncrief 18.69
96. Sam Jones* 18.68
97. Scottie Pippen 18.63
98. Tim Hardaway 18.61
99. Vern Mikkelsen* 18.58
100. Willis Reed* 18.57

101. Gus Williams 18.51
102. Baron Davis 18.50
103. Antawn Jamison 18.46
104. Pete Maravich* 18.38
105. Donnie Freeman 18.38
106. Kiki Vandeweghe 18.37
107. Reggie Miller 18.36
108. Steve Francis 18.35
109. Larry Foust 18.34
110. Alvan Adams 18.32

[Godfather]

There are many undeserved MVPs (which are market tool) and Championships are determined by having the Better Team not by being the Best Player:rolleyes: :hammerhead: .

George Best was superior to Cryuff, Platini but the media does not mention it because he was from Wales and never played 1 singe World Cup. There are many overrated players in Team Sports that get hype because they played in Greater Teams with Greater Supporting Casts.

Just as Rolandhino overhyped (even having a Great Team in Barcelona and in his National Team) is alaways compared to Zidane and he is not even close:rolleyes: .

To me Greateness of a Player is PER AND EFF. Ofcourse this also is helped by having Greater Teamates.

Jordan is definetly the Greatest Shooting Guard Ever but I don`t know about Goat. Especially when you have Stern trying to promote and Markert Jordan the way he did in the 90s after even eliminating the handchecking and 3 second rule to make it easier for Off Guards and Perimeter Players that Penetrate to the Basket. Modeling everything for Jordan-like Players.

Jordan is the Greatest SG Ever but Greatest Player Ever that can be argued tehre are other many great players that where not SGs and did Great

Career EFF Leaders

http://www.basketballreference.com/leaders/leaderscareer.htm?stat=eff&lg=n

Player EFF Seasons

1 Wilt Chamberlain 41.50 14
2 Bill Russell 31.71 13
3 Oscar Robertson 31.61 14
4 Bob Pettit 31.11 11
5 Kareem Abdul-jabbar 30.93 20
6 Larry Bird 29.77 13
7 Elgin Baylor 29.74 14
8 Michael Jordan 29.19 15
9 Magic Johnson 29.10 13
10 Charles Barkley 28.16 16

11 Jerry Lucas 28.13 11
12 Shaquille O'neal 27.59 16
13 Hakeem Olajuwon 27.17 18
14 Kevin Garnett 27.13 13
15 Jerry West 27.10 14
16 David Robinson 26.98 14
17 Karl Malone 26.94 19
18 Tim Duncan 26.59 11
19 LeBron James 26.46 5
20 Walt Bellamy 26.29 14

21 Dave Cowens 26.23 11
22 Maurice Stokes 25.75 3
23 Bob Lanier 25.29 14
24 Bob McAdoo 24.47 14
25 Elton Brand 24.37 9
26 Dirk Nowitzki 24.25 10
27 Moses Malone 24.14 19
28 Willis Reed 24.06 10
29 Elvin Hayes 24.04 16
30 Rick Barry 23.98 10

31 Nate Thurmond 23.73 14
32 Chris Webber 23.72 15
33 Wes Unseld 23.70 13
34 Shawn Marion 23.52 9
35 Chris Paul 23.51 3
36 Billy Cunningham 23.51 9
37 Patrick Ewing 23.41 17
38 Julius Erving 23.35 11
39 Neil Johnston 23.23 8
40 Brad Daugherty 23.10 8

41 Artis Gilmore 22.99 12
42 Dwyane Wade 22.95 5
43 Amare Stoudemire 22.85 6
44 Walt Frazier 22.74 13
45 Gus Johnson 22.63 9
46 Adrian Dantley 22.60 15
47 Kobe Bryant 22.42 12
48 Clyde Drexler 22.42 15
49 Dwight Howard 22.26 4
50 Larry Nance 22.14 13

51 Bill Walton 22.13 10
52 Dolph Schayes 22.10 15
53 George Gervin 22.07 10
54 Dan Issel 21.91 9
55 Pau Gasol 21.91 7
56 Yao Ming 21.90 6
57 Jeff Ruland 21.71 8
58 George Mikan 21.58 7
59 Allen Iverson 21.56 12
60 Kevin Johnson 21.56 12
61 Clark Kellogg 21.55 5
62 Bailey Howell 21.53 12
63 Carlos Boozer 21.49 6
64 Paul Pierce 21.45 10
65 Marques Johnson 21.44 11
66 Chris Bosh 21.41 5
67 Dominique Wilkins 21.26 15
68 Paul Arizin 21.26 10
69 Connie Hawkins 21.25 7
70 Vince Carter 21.16 10
71 Tracy McGrady 21.10 11
72 Grant Hill 21.09 13
73 Pete Maravich 20.98 10
74 Jason Kidd 20.95 14
75 Spencer Haywood 20.84 12
76 Jack Sikma 20.83 14
77 John Stockton 20.80 19
78 John Havlicek 20.68 16
79 Kevin McHale 20.44 13
80 Alex English 20.40 15
81 George McGinnis 20.26 7
82 Isiah Thomas 20.22 13
83 Elmore Smith 20.20 8
84 Carmelo Anthony 20.16 5
85 Dave Debusschere 20.14 12
86 Bob Dandridge 20.03 13
87 Lamar Odom 19.94 9
88 Zelmo Beaty 19.92 8
89 Gilbert Arenas 19.91 7
90 Rudy Tomjanovich 19.77 11
91 Alonzo Mourning 19.77 15
92 Sidney Wicks 19.76 10
93 Bill Bridges 19.73 13
94 Happy Hairston 19.65 11
95 Dan Roundfield 19.60 11
96 Bernard King 19.60 14
97 Alex Groza 19.53 2
98 Scottie Pippen 19.50 17
99 Dave Bing 19.33 12
100 Nate Archibald 19.24 13

Career Leaders and Records for Player Efficiency Rating

http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/per_career.html

Rank Player PER

1. Michael Jordan 27.91
2. Shaquille O'Neal 27.14
3. David Robinson 26.18
4. Wilt Chamberlain* 26.13
5. Bob Pettit* 25.37
6. LeBron James 25.17
7. Tim Duncan 25.10
8. Neil Johnston* 24.67
9. Charles Barkley* 24.63
10. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar* 24.58

11. Magic Johnson* 24.11
12. Kevin Garnett 23.93
13. Dirk Nowitzki 23.92
14. Karl Malone 23.90
15. Hakeem Olajuwon* 23.59
16. Julius Erving* 23.57
17. Kobe Bryant 23.57
18. Larry Bird* 23.50
19. Tracy McGrady 23.38
20. Oscar Robertson* 23.18

21. Jerry West* 22.90
22. Elgin Baylor* 22.70
23. Elton Brand 22.69
24. Moses Malone* 22.00
25. Dolph Schayes* 21.94
26. John Stockton 21.83
27. Pau Gasol 21.70
28. Bob Lanier* 21.69
29. Clyde Lovellette* 21.67
30. Vince Carter 21.65

31. Dominique Wilkins* 21.56
32. Adrian Dantley* 21.51
33. Harry Gallatin* 21.45
34. Allen Iverson 21.42
35. Artis Gilmore 21.39
36. Dan Issel* 21.39
37. George Gervin* 21.38
38. Paul Pierce 21.37
39. Alonzo Mourning 21.24
40. Rick Barry* 21.10

41. Clyde Drexler* 21.07
42. Patrick Ewing* 21.01
43. Chris Webber 20.94
44. Grant Hill 20.88
45. Shawn Marion 20.80
46. Gilbert Arenas 20.74
47. John Drew 20.74
48. Bob McAdoo* 20.73
49. Kevin Johnson 20.70
50. George Yardley* 20.52

51. Ed Macauley* 20.35
52. Marques Johnson 20.11
53. Michael Redd 20.11
54. Steve Nash 20.07
55. George McGinnis 20.04
56. Billy Cunningham* 20.04
57. Mel Daniels 20.02
58. Kevin McHale* 20.02
59. Connie Hawkins* 19.94

60. Ray Allen 19.94
61. Larry Nance 19.92
62. David Thompson* 19.90
63. Alex English* 19.87
64. Walt Bellamy* 19.84
65. Cliff Hagan* 19.83
66. Andrei Kirilenko 19.82
67. Bob Cousy* 19.74
68. Terrell Brandon 19.69
69. Paul Arizin* 19.66
70. Mark Price 19.61

71. Sam Cassell 19.48
72. Paul Westphal 19.43
73. Zydrunas Ilgauskas 19.36
74. Robert Parish* 19.22
75. Bernard King 19.18
76. Walt Frazier* 19.12
77. Bailey Howell* 19.11
78. Spencer Haywood 19.11
79. Shawn Kemp 19.08
80. Walter Davis 19.07

81. Shareef Abdur-Rahim 19.03
82. Mark Aguirre 19.02
83. Larry Jones 19.02
84. Chauncey Billups 19.00
85. Stephon Marbury 18.92
86. Gary Payton 18.88
87. Bill Russell* 18.88
88. Jerry Lucas* 18.86
89. Brad Daugherty 18.85

90. World B. Free 18.78
91. Chris Mullin 18.78
92. Zelmo Beaty 18.77
93. Jermaine O'Neal 18.73
94. Jason Kidd 18.70
95. Sidney Moncrief 18.69
96. Sam Jones* 18.68
97. Scottie Pippen 18.63
98. Tim Hardaway 18.61
99. Vern Mikkelsen* 18.58
100. Willis Reed* 18.57

101. Gus Williams 18.51
102. Baron Davis 18.50
103. Antawn Jamison 18.46
104. Pete Maravich* 18.38
105. Donnie Freeman 18.38
106. Kiki Vandeweghe 18.37
107. Reggie Miller 18.36
108. Steve Francis 18.35
109. Larry Foust 18.34
110. Alvan Adams 18.32
Most worthless post ever...Why you posted 110 player's per is beyond me. Mike was the greatest player to play the game. Anyone who says otherwise
http://www.dianahsieh.com/blog/uploaded_images/millionaire_idiot_fail-713308.jpgs

[stephanieg]

Jordan is the GOAT because he played in the modern media age. In another decade or two with the right player (read: handsome, charismatic, flashy) and the right conditions (his team wins a lot) we can have another "GOAT" for the new generation.

[Loki]

Jordan is the GOAT because he played in the modern media age. In another decade or two with the right player (read: handsome, charismatic, flashy) and the right conditions (his team wins a lot) we can have another "GOAT" for the new generation.

Stupidest thing I've ever read. And I've read all of Sir Charles' posts.

Jordan has just as good a resume for GOAT as anyone. In fact, the only player whose resume really compares on all levels is Kareem's. Let me help you out with why many people (65+%) consider him to be the GOAT. This list is by no means exhaustive:



- 10 scoring titles, many on staggering efficiency (there have been just 10 seasons of 30+ ppg/60+% TS in history, and Jordan has 4 of them).

- 5 MVP's

- 10 top 2 finishes in MVP voting

- 7 The Sporting News MVP Awards (voted on by coaches and players)

- 6 rings

- 6 Finals MVP's

- DPOY award

- 3 top 2 finishes in DPOY voting (1988, '90, '93), and 9 years in the top 6 in DPOY voting)

- Only player to ever win MVP/DPOY/Scoring Title in the same season.

- One of only two players to ever lead the league in scoring and steals in the same season, and he did it three times (Iverson did it twice).

- The first and to this day one of only 3 players to record 200+ steals/100+ blocks in the same season, and he did it twice, in consecutive seasons (235 stl/126 blk in '87 and 256 stl/131 blk in '88). No one else has ever done it twice.

- 3 steals titles; 7 top 3 finishes in steals per game.

- most blocked shots by a guard in history, both single season and career.

- Considered the best offensive and defensive player in the league by many for a period of 5-6 seasons ('88-'93).

- Considered the undisputed best player in the league by a large majority (90+%) for at least 7-8 seasons.

- A top 3 clutch player in history AT THE VERY LEAST.

- Career regular season averages of 30.1 pts/6.2 reb/5.3 ast/2.3 stl/50% FG.

- 5 year prime regular season averages of 32.1 pts/6.8 reb/6.3 ast/2.7 stl/52% FG

- Career playoff averages of 33.4 pts/6.4 reb/5.7 ast/2.1 stl/49% FG.

- 5 year prime playoff averages of 34.5 pts/6.7 reb/6.9 ast/2.3 stl/51% FG

- 7 seasons leading the league in PER

- 10 top 2 finishes in PER

- 4 seasons leading the league in EFF

- 7 top 2 finishes in EFF

- 8 seasons leading the league in Win Shares

- 10 top 3 finishes in Win Shares

- 8 seasons leading the league in Win Shares Above Average

- 9 seasons leading the league in Player Wins

- 10 top 2 finishes in Player Wins

- Led teams with three of the 10 best offensive efficiencies of all time. Proved that he was able to integrate high scoring and winning basketball.

- Led his teams to an average of 65 wins per season during their championship runs.



The list is honestly endless. People (who shall remain nameless) who spout foolish nonsense like "it was because of marketing" or "the media" are kidding themselves and shouldn't be taken seriously.

[stephanieg]

Yes, Loki, yes, we know. It's OK.

[VCMVP1551]

Stupidest thing I've ever read. And I've read all of Sir Charles' posts.

Jordan has just as good a resume for GOAT as anyone. In fact, the only player whose resume really compares on all levels is Kareem's. Let me help you out with why many people (65+%) consider him to be the GOAT. This list is by no means exhaustive:



- 10 scoring titles, many on staggering efficiency (there have been just 10 seasons of 30+ ppg/60+% TS in history, and Jordan has 4 of them).

- 5 MVP's

- 10 top 2 finishes in MVP voting

- 7 The Sporting News MVP Awards (voted on by coaches and players)

- 6 rings

- 6 Finals MVP's

- DPOY award

- 3 top 2 finishes in DPOY voting (1988, '90, '93), and 9 years in the top 6 in DPOY voting)

- Only player to ever win MVP/DPOY/Scoring Title in the same season.

- One of only two players to ever lead the league in scoring and steals in the same season, and he did it three times (Iverson did it twice).

- The first and to this day one of only 3 players to record 200+ steals/100+ blocks in the same season, and he did it twice, in consecutive seasons (235 stl/126 blk in '87 and 256 stl/131 blk in '88). No one else has ever done it twice.

- 3 steals titles; 7 top 3 finishes in steals per game.

- most blocked shots by a guard in history, both single season and career.

- Considered the best offensive and defensive player in the league by many for a period of 5-6 seasons ('88-'93).

- Considered the undisputed best player in the league by a large majority (90+%) for at least 7-8 seasons.

- A top 3 clutch player in history AT THE VERY LEAST.

- Career regular season averages of 30.1 pts/6.2 reb/5.3 ast/2.3 stl/50% FG.

- 5 year prime regular season averages of 32.1 pts/6.8 reb/6.3 ast/2.7 stl/52% FG

- Career playoff averages of 33.4 pts/6.4 reb/5.7 ast/2.1 stl/49% FG.

- 5 year prime playoff averages of 34.5 pts/6.7 reb/6.9 ast/2.3 stl/51% FG

- 7 seasons leading the league in PER

- 10 top 2 finishes in PER

- 4 seasons leading the league in EFF

- 7 top 2 finishes in EFF

- 8 seasons leading the league in Win Shares

- 10 top 3 finishes in Win Shares

- 8 seasons leading the league in Win Shares Above Average

- 9 seasons leading the league in Player Wins

- 10 top 2 finishes in Player Wins

- Led teams with three of the 10 best offensive efficiencies of all time. Proved that he was able to integrate high scoring and winning basketball.

- Led his teams to an average of 65 wins per season during their championship runs.



The list is honestly endless. People (who shall remain nameless) who spout foolish nonsense like "it was because of marketing" or "the media" are kidding themselves and shouldn't be taken seriously.

That's why I consider Jordan clearly the greatest basketball player of all time. You pretty much destroyed the argument for anyone other than Jordan being the best ever despite leaving out some of Jordan's accomplishments!

[Loki]

Yes, Loki, yes, we know. It's OK.

IT'S ALL TEH MEDIA HYPEZ!!!!111one

[Loki]

That's why I consider Jordan clearly the greatest basketball player of all time. You pretty much destroyed the argument for anyone other than Jordan being the best ever despite leaving out some of Jordan's accomplishments!

No, Kareem still has a good case, as does Wilt. This notion that Jordan was a product of the media is just farcical, however.

[VCMVP1551]

No, Kareem still has a good case, as does Wilt.

I don't see Kareem's case at all.

He only won 2 titles as clearly the best player(1971 and 1980) 1982 was arguable though so 3 at most.

Jordan was also the superior individual player statistically and as far as team success.

The only argument I see for Kareem is longevity which isn't enough considering Jordan was a better player at 39 and 40 than Kareem was.

I think Wilt's only case can be the way he changed the game but you could say Jordan changed the game just as much.

[Da KO King]

Why "basketball people" continue to argue over a concept as silly as "the single greatest player ever" I'll never understand. I can't think of any other big time team sport where this argument actually takes place.

[Scott Pippen]

This notion that Jordan was a product of the media is just farcical, however.

overhype today? yes. Because his legend grows over time since 1998. But overrated during his time? no. He is still best player of all time. I think it is combination of his legend growing since 1998, haters like Jazz fans, Knicks fans, Pacers fans, Suns fans, Cavs fans, and Kobe fans, and people tired of talking about Jordan so much. But he was no more overhype during his time than most of today superstars. And he is better than all of them:applause:

[AllenIverson3]

Neither Finals MVPs nor DPOYs were kept when during Russell's tenture, or he'd have 9-11 Finals MVPs to go with 11 DPOYs: not to mention his 11 titles and 6 mvps (in which, if Russell's numbers weren't good enough, why he'd win 6 MVPS?!?).

Bill Russell is the GOAT.


lol are u serious? 11 titles and 5 mvps =GOAT i dont think so. he wasnt a great offensive player. to be considered a goat u have to be able to play at both ends of the floor! right there is wut eliminates him by being the GOAT!

[stephanieg]

IT'S ALL TEH MEDIA HYPEZ!!!!111one

Not exactly. MJ was an exceptional player and obviously far more skilled and mentally focused than anyone playing today. But what I said is true. Your grandparents argued over Wilt vs. Russell as the greatest ever, then your parents had Magic, then you and I had MJ, and the new generation will have someone else to point to as the best EVAR. For a time it looked like it might be Kobe but I'm not sure if that's working out very well. Perhaps LeBron or Chris Paul or someone else who hasn't made a name for themself yet, who knows, it depends on the luck of the draw.

I don't really believe in the term "GOAT" but if I did want to stoop into that intellectual swamp I sure as hell wouldn't pick a shooting guard, even Michael "I won three titles with Luc Longley and Bill Wennington as my centers" Jordan.

[Loki]

I don't really believe in the term "GOAT" but if I did want to stoop into that intellectual swamp I sure as hell wouldn't pick a shooting guard, even Michael "I won three titles with Luc Longley and Bill Wennington as my centers" Jordan.

:oldlol:

How surprising.

[brandonislegend]

yeah, MJ is GOAT...

Magic Johnson

[haji_d_robertas]

:oldlol:

That's how you know the era in the 60's was weak. When you average more rebounds than points, than it shows how easy it was to get rebounds. There were only two guys over 6'10" and they were Wilt and Russell. Everyone else was 6'5".

Please stop lying to people.

1957-58 centers

Fort Wayne Pistons
Walter Dukes C 7-0 220
Phil Jordon C-F 6-10 205

Philadelphia Warriors
Walt Davis C-F 6-8 205
Neil Johnston C 6-8 210

Minneapolis Lakers
Art Spoelstra C 6-9 220
Larry Foust C-F 6-9 215
Jim Krebs C-F 6-8 230

New York Knicks
Ray Felix C 6-11 220
Charlie Tyra C-F 6-8 230

Syracuse Nationals
Red Kerr C-F 6-9 230
Bob Hopkins C-F 6-8 205

Cincinnati Royals
Clyde Lovellette C-F 6-9 234

St. Louis Hawks
Chuck Share C 6-11 235
Bob Pettit F-C 6-9 205

Boston celtics
Arnie Risen C-F 6-9 200
Bill Russell C 6-9 215

58-59 Centers

St. Louis Hawks
Hub Reed C-F 6-9 215
Ed Macauley C-F 6-8 185


Syracuse Nationals
Connie Dierking C-F 6-9 222

Cincinnati Royals
Jack Parr C 6-9 220
Archie Dees F-C 6-8 205
Jim Palmer F-C 6-8 224
Wayne Embry C-F 6-8 240

59-60 Centers

Boston Celtics
Gene Conley C-F 6-8 225

Detroit Pistons
Gary Alcorn C 6-9 225

Philadelphia Warriors
Wilt Chamberlain C 7-1 275
Joe Ruklick F-C 6-9 220

Syracuse Nationals
Bob Hopkins C-F 6-8 205

60-61 Centers

Philadelphia Warriors
Joe Ruklick F-C 6-9 220 22

Detroit Pistons
Bob Ferry C-F 6-8 230

61-62 Centers

New York Knicks
Darrall Imhoff C 6-10 220

Syracuse Nationals
Swede Halbrook C 7-3 235

Detroit Pistons
Ray Scott F-C 6-9 215 23

Los Angeles Lakers
Wayne Yates C 6-8 235

New York Knickerbockers
Cleveland Buckner F-C 6-9 210

Cincinnati Royals
Bevo Nordmann C 6-10 225

62-63 Centers

St. Louis Hawks
Zelmo Beaty C 6-9 225
Bumper Tormohlen C-F 6-8 230

Detroit Pistons
Bob Ferry C-F 6-8 230

San Francisco Warriors
Wayne Hightower F-C 6-8 192

Los Angeles Lakers
Gene Wiley C 6-10 210
Leroy Ellis C-F 6-10 210

New York Knickerbockers
Duke Hogue C 6-9 240
Gene Conley C-F 6-8 225

Philadelphia 76ers
Len Chappell F-C 6-8 240

Cincinnati Royals
Bud Olsen F-C 6-8 220

Chicago Packers
Walt Bellamy C 6-11 225

63-64 centers

Detroit Pistons
Reggie Harding C 7-0 249

San Francisco Warriors
Nate Thurmond C-F 6-11 225

Los Angeles Lakers
Gene Wiley C 6-10 210

New York Knickerbockers
Duke Hogue C 6-9 240
Tom Hoover C 6-9 230
Bill McGill C-F 6-9
Len Chappell F-C 6-8 240

Cincinnati Royals
Jerry Lucas F-C 6-8 230

Chicago Zephyrs
Charlie Hardnett F-C 6-8 225

64-65 Centers

Boston Celtics
Mel Counts C-F 7-0 230
John Thompson F 6-10 225

New York Knickerbockers
Tom Hoover C 6-9 230 24
Willis Reed C-F 6-9 235
Jim Barnes C-F 6-8 210

Philadelphia 76ers
Luke Jackson F-C 6-9 240

Cincinnati Royals
George Wilson C 6-8 225
Bud Olsen F-C 6-8 220
Wayne Embry C-F 6-8 240

65-66 Centers

Detroit Pistons
Joe Strawder C 6-10 235
Ray Scott F-C 6-9 215

San Francisco Warriors
Bud Olsen F-C 6-8 220
Fred Hetzel F-C 6-8 220

Los Angeles Lakers
Gene Wiley C 6-10 210
Leroy Ellis C-F 6-10 210

Cincinnati Royals
George Wilson C 6-8 225

66-67 Centers

St. Louis Hawks
Tom Hoover C 6-9 230

Chicago Bulls
Nate Bowman C 6-10 230

Detroit Pistons
Dorie Murrey F-C 6-8 215

San Francisco Warriors
Clyde Lee F-C 6-10 205

Los Angeles Lakers
Hank Finkel C 7-0 240
John Block F-C 6-9 207

New York Knickerbockers
Henry Akin C-F 6-10 225

Cincinnati Royals
Walt Wesley C 6-11 220

67-68 Centers

Chicago Bulls
Craig Spitzer C 7-0 225

Detroit Pistons
Jim Fox C-F 6-10 230
George Patterson C-F 6-8 230
Joe Strawder C 6-10 235

Los Angeles Lakers
Erwin Mueller C-F 6-8 230

New York Knickerbockers
Jim Caldwell C 6-10 240
Nate Bowman C 6-10 230
Phil Jackson F-C 6-8 220
Neil Johnson F-C 6-7 220

San Diego Rockets
Hank Finkel C 7-0 240

Seattle Supersonics
Henry Akin C-F 6-10 225
Bob Rule C-F 6-9 220

68-69 Centers

Detroit Pistons
Rich Niemann C 7-0 245
Otto Moore C-F 6-11 205
Jim Fox C-F 6-10 230

San Francisco Warriors
Dale Schlueter C 6-10 225
Clyde Lee F-C 6-10 205

San Diego Rockets
Elvin Hayes F-C 6-9 235

New York Knickerbockers
Nate Bowman C 6-10 230
Bill Hosket F-C 6-8 225

Philadelphia 76ers
Craig Raymond C 6-11 235

Cincinnati Royals
Zaid Abdul-Aziz C-F 6-9 235

Seattle Supersonics
Bob Rule C-F 6-9 220
Bob Kauffman F-C 6-8 240

Baltimore Bullets
Leroy Ellis C-F 6-10 210
Bob Ferry C-F 6-8 230

[stephanieg]

yeah, MJ is GOAT...

Magic Johnson

It's hard to argue with someone whose blood cures HIV. That really is Magic.

But no, the GOAT would have to be a big man. Big men affect the game of basketball far more than guards. Certainly a good PG can also have quite an effect on team success, but it's difficult to beat a big man's interior defense, rebounding, scoring efficiency, his ability to readily foul the other team, and the effect he has on the other team's interior defensive gameplan. This is all true even when the NBA is trying to make the game more guard oriented for the viewers (who apparently don't like watching big men back down their defenders and then pass it out to a three point shooter when they're doubled, according to Stern anyway, although that's what MJ did for his last 2 years of wearing red).

If it makes you feel any better Loki MJ is definitely the most entertaining player ever. I never get tired of watching old games of his. He really worked his craft and his mental focus was terrifying.

[eliteballer]

Magic could play all five positions. Magic was a big AND a small at the same time.

[VCMVP1551]

Magic could play all five positions. Magic was a big AND a small at the same time.

Magic never truly played center. He just jumped center and then played guard and SF that game. He played PF during his comeback in 1996 but prior to that he hadn't really played that position.

[T-Low]

Jordan Smashes Backboard '86 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=te-8MJ84834&NR=1)

[Heretik32]

Jordan Smashes Backboard '86 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=te-8MJ84834&NR=1)

Whoa, never seen that one before. That's how it's done, outrunning the white stiffs and showering them with a glass waterfall.

[Brunch@Five]

Did anyone take the original post serious after this sentence?


Now if you add the fact of Defensive Teams that would eliminate Magic. However, I won't do that to him because he is my 2nd favorite player.

:oldlol: :oldlol:

[Killer_Instinct]

MJ is defintley the GOAT now. But I'll take that spot over in the next 10-15 years, so what's the point?

[eliteballer]

Magic never truly played center. He just jumped center and then played guard and SF that game. He played PF during his comeback in 1996 but prior to that he hadn't really played that position.

Dont need someone who never saw 80's ball to tell me what I did bruh.

[VCMVP1551]

Dont need someone who never saw 80's ball to tell me what I did bruh.

What?

[Killer_Instinct]

What?


He's Magic. Isn't it obvious?

[Sir Charles]

Magic could play all five positions. Magic was a big AND a small at the same time.

Many people forget how strong Magic was naturally:hammerhead: . Magic was not an off season athletic hard working maniac but if that man would have prepred hismelf and played SF around 255 lbs as he did in 1995-96! (after not playing closse to 6 YEARS PRO, yes 6 YEARS :confusedshrug: how many pros could come back after 5-6 years and play like he did?! ) he would school any SF in the Post with ease not to mention his alreadly dominating Court Visiom, Passig Abilities, Guard Caliber Talent-Moves and Ballhandling Fake and his Baby Hook a Schooler in any era :) :cheers: :cheers:

[snipes12]

http://www.mediabistro.com/unbeige/original/shock.jpg

[guy]

If you're going to break it down by career accomplishments, Kareem is the greatest, and I don't want to say that noone comes close, but clearly noone matches Kareem's combination of

1. Winning
2. Stats
3. Individual awards/honors

There are players who can match or are better than Kareem at one of these categories, but combined, Kareem is clearly above the others.

Well you should take into account that out of his 6 titles, he was the best player for only 2, arguably 3 of those teams, and he wasn't even the 2nd best player for 1-2 of those teams.

[TmacsRockets]

I am going to still this post from a knowledgeable poster on two other sites. This is how he explains why MJ is the GOAT.

Well let's look at some of the candidates first.

1. MJ (6 Titles, 5 League MVP's, 6 Finals MVP's, Career Leader in PPG Regular Season and Playoffs, and Most Points in Playoffs, etc)
2. Magic (5 Titles, 3 League MVP's, 3 Finals MVP's, # of APG titles)
3. Kareem (6 Titles, 6 League MVP's, 3 Finals MVP's, Career Points leader)
4. Russell (11 Titles, 5 League MVP's)
5. Wilt (2 Titles, 4 League MVP's, 1 Finals MVP)

Close
6. Bird (3 Titles, 3 League MVP's, 2 Finals MVP's)
7. Shaq (4 Titles, 1 League MVP's, 3 Finals MVP's)

So if we break it down, let's go by the following:


League MVP's
6 - Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
5 - Michael Jordan
5 - Bill Russell
4 - Wilt Chamberlain
3 - Larry Bird
3 - Magic Johnson
3 - Moses Malone

Finals MVP's
6 - Michael Jordan
3 - Magic Johnson
3 - Shaquille O'neal
3 - Tim Duncan
2 - Kareem
2- Bird
1 - Wilt
1 - Moses Malone

Championships
11 - Bill Russell
6 - Michael Jordan
6 - Kareem
5 - Magic
4 - Shaq
4 - Duncan
2 - Wilt

Career Stats and Records - Regular Season
APG Leader: Magic
RPG Leader: Wilt
All-time Career Points Leader: Kareem
All-time PPG Leader: M.Jordan

Playoff Stats and Records - Playoffs
Total Assists Leader: Magic Johnson
APG Leader Playoffs: Magic Johnson
Total Rebounds Leader: Bill Russell
RPG Leader Playoffs: Bill Russell
All-time Career Points Leader Playoffs: M.Jordan
All-time PPG Leader Playoffs: M.Jordan

So currently the only players that fit the bill in each category are both MJ's.

Now if you add the fact of Defensive Teams that would eliminate Magic. However, I won't do that to him because he is my 2nd favorite player.

Now if you want you can add in the TSN MVP award as well

TSN MVP
7 - Michael Jordan
6 - Kareem
4 - Wilt
4 - Russell
2 - Moses
2 - Shaq
1 - Hakeem
1 - Magic

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/basketball/nba/2003-02-06-dupree-team_x.htm

http://motownsportsrevival.blogspot.com/2006/12/top-50-basketball-players-of-all-time.html

So Kareem has the most league MVP's, MJ the most Finals MVP's, and Russell the most titles.

MJ is near the top in all of them though as is Russell, but Russell doesn't have the numbers to support him.

Also consider

Kareem won League MVP and Finals MVP in 1971
Magic won League MVP and Finals MVP in 1987
MJ won League MVP and Finals MVP in 1991, 1992, 1996 and 1998.


Now all of that is looking at accolades, so how do we go even further in deciding who is the best as we can't just use titles alone. Well what did they did yearly and in the playoffs?




http://www.answers.com/topic/nba-records

The Playoffs is where you make your name and where greatness is defined. But MJ was more consistent and holds records as well such as:

Highest PPG Average: 30.12
Most seasons leading league in Points: 11
Most scoring titles: 10
Highest PER Efficiency: 27.91

Also, MJ is no doubt the greatest playoff performer and IMO he was the greatest Road Player Ever. Most of his greatest feats happened on the road.

As far as the playoffs go, here are a few things that stuck out in my mind:

Playoffs
Most Points Per Game (min. 25 games)
33.4 by Michael Jordan (179 games)

Most Points in a Game
63 by Michael Jordan

Most 50 Point Games
8 by Michael Jordan

Most 40 Point Games
38 by Michael Jordan

Most 30 Point Games
109 by Michael Jordan

Most 20 Point Games
174 by Michael Jordan (he played 179 playoff games and scored under 20 only 5 times)

These players all lost these series with Homecourt advantage which means they were the favorite. If someone was injured like a main star then that factors in, but if not that doesn't factor in the discussion.



MJ never lost a series with homecourt advantage/better seed/better record. What does that mean, well he was the only superstar to never lose a series in which his team was considered the favorite and better team. All the other legends lost series.

Also consider the following:

Is 18% a good percentage?

In what you might ask... 18% winning percentage...

Pretty awful right?

Well in 60 years of NBA Basketball only 11 league leading scorers have won a championship... That's 18.333333%...

Their names are: Shaquille O'Neal, Michael Jordan, Kareem Abdul Jabbar, George Mikan and some guy named Joe Fulks...

Most of these players were dominant Centers, who did more than just score.

That means that non center players who led the league in scoring have won in an amazing 10% of the time.. and only one player did it... Michael Jordan. In one era. That phenomenon of nature who won six...

10% winning historically!!! 10 PERCENT!!!

I will argue that the odds are against a high scoring guard from winning it all.

Here are the playoff top games.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/basketball/nba/2002/playoffs/top_individual_points/

Top Playoff Single-Game Scoring Performances
Player Team Opponent Total Date
Michael Jordan Chicago at Boston 63 April 20, 1986
Elgin Baylor L.A. Lakers at Boston 61 April 14, 1962
Wilt Chamberlain Philadelphia Syracuse 56 March 22, 1962
Michael Jordan Chicago at Miami 56 April 29, 1992
Charles Barkley Phoenix at Golden State 56 May 4, 1994
Michael Jordan Chicago Cleveland 55 May 1, 1988
Michael Jordan Chicago Phoenix 55 June 16, 1993
Michael Jordan Chicago Washington 55 April 27, 1997
John Havlicek Boston Atlanta 54 April 1, 1973
Michael Jordan Chicago New York 54 May 31, 1993
Allen Iverson Philadelphia Toronto 54 May 9, 2001
Wilt Chamberlain Philadelphia Syracuse 53 March 14, 1960
Jerry West L.A. Lakers Boston 53 April 23, 1969
Jerry West L.A. Lakers Baltimore 52 April 5, 1965
Allen Iverson Philadelphia Toronto 52 May 16, 2001
Sam Jones Boston at New York 51 March 28, 1967
Eric Floyd Golden State L.A. Lakers 51 May 10, 1987
Bob Cousy Boston Syracuse 50* March 21, 1953
Bob Petit St. Louis Boston 50 April 12, 1958
Wilt Chamberlain Philadelphia at Boston 50 March 22, 1950
Wilt Chamberlain San Francisco St. Louis 50 April 10, 1964
Billy Cunningham Philadelphia Milwaukee 50 April 1, 1970
Bob McAdoo Buffalo Washington 50 April 18, 1975
Dominique Wilkins Atlanta Detroit 50 April 19, 1986
Michael Jordan Chicago Cleveland 50 April 28, 1988
Michael Jordan Chicago Cleveland 50^ May 5, 1989
Karl Malone Utah Seattle 50 April 22, 2000
Vince Carter Toronto Philadelphia 50 May 11, 2001
*4 overtimes
^overtime

This is courtesy of NBA on NBC here:

NBA PLAYOFFS HIGH SCORING GAME BY YEAR
1946-47 - 37 Joe Fulks, PHW vs CHI at PHW 16Apr47
1947-48 - 34 Connie Simmons, BLT vs NYK at BLT 27Mar48
1948-49 - 42 George Mikan, MPL vs WSC 4Apr49 @ MPL
1949-50 - 40 George Mikan, MPL vs SYR at MPL 23Apr50
1950-51 - 41 George Mikan, MPL vs IDS at MPL 21Mar51
1951-52 - 47 George Mikan, MPL at ROC 29Mar52
1952-53 - 50 Bob Cousy, BOS vs SYR at BOS 21Mar53
1953-54 - 36 Dolph Schayes, SYR at NYK 21Mar54
1954-55 - 32 Bill Sharman, BOS at SYR 24Mar55
1955-56 - 43 Neil Johnson, PHW at SYR 25Mar56
1956-57 - 42 Bob Leonard, MPL vs STL at MPL 25Mar57
1957-58 - 50 Bob Pettit, STL vs BOS at STL 12Apr58
1958-59 - 40 Cliff Hagan, STL vs MPL at STL 21Mar59
1959-60 - 53 Wilt Chamberlain, PHW vs SYR at PHW 14Mar60
1960-61 - 47 Elgin Baylor, LAL at DET 18Mar61
............... 47 Elgin Baylor, LAL at STL 27Mar61
1961-62 - 61 Elgin Baylor, LAL at BOS 14Apr62
1962-63 - 47 Sam Jones, BOS vs CIN at BOS 10Apr63
1963-64 - 50 Wilt Chamberlain, SFW vs STL at SFW 10Apr64
1964-65 - 52 Jerry West, LAL vs BAL at LAL 3Apr65
1965-66 - 46 Wilt Chamberlain, PHI vs BOS at PHI 12Apr66
1966-67 - 55 Rick Barry, SFW vs PHI at SFW 18Apr67
1967-68 - 46 Zelmo Beaty, STL vs SFW 23Mar68 @ STL
1968-69 - 53 Jerry West, LAL vs BOS at LAL 23Apr69
1969-70 - 50 Billy Cunningham, PHI vs MIL at PHI 1Apr70
1970-71 - 39 Gail Goodrich, LAL at CHI 28Mar71
1971-72 - 43 John Havlicek BOS at ATL 31Mar72
1972-73 - 54 John Havlicek, BOS vs ATL at BOS 1Apr73
1973-74 - 44 Bob McAdoo, BUF vs BOS 6Apr74 at BUF
............... 44 Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, MIL at CHI 18Apr74
1974-75 - 50 Bob McAdoo, BUF vs WAS at BUF 18Apr75
1975-76 - 45 Fred Brown, SEA vs PHO at SEA 15Apr76
1976-77 - 45 Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, LAL vs GSW at LAL 29Apr77
1977-78 - 46 George Gervin, SAN vs WAS at SAN 18Apr78
1978-79 - 42 George Gervin, SAN vs WAS at SAN 11May79
............... 42 George Gervin, SAN at WAS 18May79
1979-80 - 44 George Gervin, SAN vs HOU at SAN 4Apr80
1980-81 - 42 Calvin Murphy, HOU at SAN 17Apr81
............... 42 Moses Malone, HOU vs KCK at HOU 26Apr81
1981-82 - 39 George Gervin, SAN vs LAL at SAN 14May82
............... 39 Andrew Toney, PHI vs BOS at PHI 16May82
1982-83 - 42 Alex English, DEN vs PHO at PHO 24Apr83
............... 42 George Gervin, SAN at DEN 26Apr83
1983-84 - 46 Bernard King, NYK at DET 19Apr84
............... 46 Bernard King, NYK vs DET at NYK 22Apr84
1984-85 - 43 Rolando Blackman, DAL vs POR at DAL 18Apr85
............... 43 Larry Bird, BOS vs DET at BOS 8May85
1985-86 - 63 Michael Jordan, CHI at BOS 20Apr86
1986-87 - 51 Sleepy Floyd, GSW vs LAL at GSW 10May87
1987-88 - 55 Michael Jordan, CHI vs CLE at CHI 1May88
1988-89 - 50 Michael Jordan, CHI vs CLE at CHI 5May89
1989-90 - 49 Michael Jordan, CHI at PHI 11May90
1990-91 - 46 Michael Jordan, CHI at PHI 10May91
1991-92 - 56 Michael Jordan, CHI at MIA 29Apr92
1992-93 - 55 Michael Jordan, CHI vs PHO at CHI 16Jun93
1993-94 - 56 Charles Barkley, PHO at GSW 4May94
1994-95 - 48 Michael Jordan, CHI at CHA 28Apr95
1995-96 - 46 Michael Jordan, CHI at NYK 11May96
1996-97 - 55 Michael Jordan, CHI vs WAS at CHI 27Apr97
1997-98 - 45 Michael Jordan, CHI at UTA 14Jun98
1998-99 - 37 Tim Duncan, SAN at LAL 22May99
............... 37 Scottie Pippen, HOU vs LAL at HOU 13May99
............... 37 Shaquille O'Neal, LAL vs HOU at HOU 15May99
............... 37 Allen Iverson, PHI vs ORL at PHI 15May99
1999-00 - 50 Karl Malone, UTA vs SEA at UTA 22Apr00
-----
ALL-TIME HIGHEST SCORING AVERAGES, NBA PLAYOFFS
Jerry West, LAL vs BAL, 1965..... 46.3
Michael Jordan, CHI vs CLE, 1988..... 45.2
Michael Jordan, CHI vs MIA, 1992..... 45.0

ALL-TIME HIGHEST SCORING AVERAGES, NBA CHAMPIONSHIP SERIES/NBA FINALS
Michael Jordan, CHI vs PHO, 1993..... 41.0
Rick Barry, SFW vs PHI, 1965..... 40.8
Elgin Baylor, LAL vs BOS, 1962..... 40.6


Also MJ has 6 playoffs series where he averaged at least 40 ppg.

:wtf:
You stole my damn post.
:no:

[lilojmayo]

what hell MJ is referred to as GOAT he will hold the title for about 10 more years

Unitl OJ Mayo takes it from him

[Godfather]

what hell MJ is referred to as GOAT he will hold the title for about 10 more years

Unitl OJ Mayo takes it from him

:roll::roll::roll:

http://www.osmond-riba.org/lis/Graphics/blog/2007Q2/fail.jpg

[lilojmayo]

:roll::roll::roll:

http://www.osmond-riba.org/lis/Graphics/blog/2007Q2/fail.jpg

ill be laughing at you azz when oj averages 25+ppg his rookie year this year

[Godfather]

ill be laughing at you azz when oj averages 25+ppg his rookie year this year

I'll hold you to that :roll:.

[knicks4eva]

The only player somewhat close to Jordan in the GOAT discussion is Magic. He played in a strong era and put great numbers and won titles. Even with that in mind Jordan is best player ever and its a significant margin

[Sir Charles]

Magic without Kareem = No Titles

Titles don`t have to do **** with being the Best Player in Your Position or in the League or at the moment (months, weeks, years etc). Get that out of your minds:hammerhead: . If Jordan would not have had PIPPEN playing Point Forward and Making Everyone better and a Great Supporting Cast with Grant, Cartwright, Paxon, Kerr, Rodman, Kukoc he would not have one any championship in the early 90s (not to mention 80s). To me, that still would not have taken away the fact he is GOAT SG without Discussion

MVP`s are also overrated because those are determined by your teams success (supporting cast, quemistry etc) and yourself a great player being in reality a marketing tool of personality that will get awarded according to the likings of Mr Stern and other pathetic people that own the league who have the hipocrisy to promote you according to how much they can make $ from you at the moment.

1-Stats (regarding to your competition next to you and your supporting casts in their Prime)
2-PER (regarding to your competition next to you and your supporting casts in their Prime)
3-EFF (regarding to your competition next to you and your supporting casts in their Prime)
4-And "Play-OFF Performances" (regarding to your competition next to you and your supporting casts in their Prime) Talk About a Players Greatness and that is wher you put the:

Wilts, Kareems, DJ`s, Baylors, Jordans, Birds, Barkleys, Hakeems, Shaqs etc

[Lebron23]

ill be laughing at you azz when oj averages 25+ppg his rookie year this year


OJ Mayo isn't even better than Demar Derozan. :lol

[Jasper]

Based on his superiority of the game Chicago rewarded MJ in 1997-1998 with a $33,000,000 a year payperiod. According to a recent ESPN article.
(quite frankly I thought it was 25m)

Stat - of the 1893 shots he took each shot cost the Bulls $17,000
(think about your income - now think about each shot he took per game was worth $17,000)
Stat - 3181 recorded minutes he played it cost the Bulls $10,000

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_career_achievements_by_Michael_Jordan
http://www.michaeljordansworld.com/gamebygame/gamelog19971998.htm

I know some speculation about Bron or other players going to Euro ball to make a killing.
But MJ crecendo'ed his career in Chicago with a 6th championship and was highly rewarded in pay for a career 'well done' and keeping the NBA in the green. :rockon:

[VCMVP1551]

If you're going to break it down by career accomplishments, Kareem is the greatest, and I don't want to say that noone comes close, but clearly noone matches Kareem's combination of

1. Winning
2. Stats
3. Individual awards/honors

There are players who can match or are better than Kareem at one of these categories, but combined, Kareem is clearly above the others.

Jordan beats Kareem in the combination of winning, stats and individual accomplishments.

Michael Jordan
Career Stats 30.1 ppg(record), 6.2 rpg, 5.3 apg, 49.7 FG%, 83.5 FT%
MVP's 5
Defensive Player Of The Year 1
Scoring Titles 10(most ever)
Championships 6
Finals MVP's 6(most ever)
Leage Leader in steals 3 times
Rookie Of The Year
9 time all defensive first team(most ever)
10 time all nba first team
60 win seasons 5
50 win seasons 8

Jordan holds the NBA record for highest career regular season scoring average with 30.12 points per game, as well as averaging a record 33.4 points per game in the playoffs. His 41.0 ppg average in the 1993 finals is also a record.

Jordan's resume is untouchable.

Kareem played more seasons and as a result his career totals are better but other than that Jordan beats him easily. Kareem has more MVP's but Jordan was clearly robbed in 1997 as well as possibly in 1993 while Kareem won MVP in a season where his team finished under .500 and missed the playoffs.

[lilojmayo]

Jordan beats Kareem in the combination of winning, stats and individual accomplishments.

Michael Jordan
Career Stats 30.1 ppg(record), 6.2 rpg, 5.3 apg, 49.7 FG%, 83.5 FT%
MVP's 5
Defensive Player Of The Year 1
Scoring Titles 10(most ever)
Championships 6
Finals MVP's 6(most ever)
Leage Leader in steals 3 times
Rookie Of The Year
9 time all defensive first team(most ever)
10 time all nba first team
60 win seasons 5
50 win seasons 8

Jordan holds the NBA record for highest career regular season scoring average with 30.12 points per game, as well as averaging a record 33.4 points per game in the playoffs. His 41.0 ppg average in the 1993 finals is also a record.

Jordan's resume is untouchable.

Kareem played more seasons and as a result his career totals are better but other than that Jordan beats him easily. Kareem has more MVP's but Jordan was clearly robbed in 1997 as well as possibly in 1993 while Kareem won MVP in a season where his team finished under .500 and missed the playoffs.


you said it brother how in 97 does MJ team go 69-13 he scores 29.6ppg and he is not the mvp MJ should have about 9-10MVPS not 5MVP the nba tries to spread the wealth back in the 80s and 90s now days if your team has the best record and your the best player on that team you get the MVP ala Steve Nash and Kobe Bryant


and about Derozan being better than mayo thats laughable, derozan stats at usc will be but oj mayo will dominate the nba this year average 25+ppg did you guys watch how calm and smooth he was at Las Vegas Summer League thats just a preview for what to except and the few i emphasis few memphis fans oj will lead you to the playoffs at min maybe even do some damage

[Godfather]

and about Derozan being better than mayo thats laughable, derozan stats at usc will be but oj mayo will dominate the nba this year average 25+ppg did you guys watch how calm and smooth he was at Las Vegas Summer League thats just a preview for what to except and the few i emphasis few memphis fans oj will lead you to the playoffs at min maybe even do some damage

Well thats great because he wasn't even a top 10 player in the Summer league...

[RoseCity07]

Every single person on this board needs to read Playing for Keeps. It's the best Jordan book every written by the greatest sports writer ever. When you read that you will understand what separates him from all players forever, what he did for the game off the court can never be repeated.

Jordan got paid 30 million first then 33 for his last season. If I can remember correctly, he bargained down for 35 million.

[White Chocolate]

Bottom line is Jordan is the GOAT. No one, not even LeBron James can duplicate what Jordan did. The Bulls never lost a series with home court when Jordan played. Magic and Bird each lost at least 2 off the top of my head.

[mhg88]

you said it brother how in 97 does MJ team go 69-13 he scores 29.6ppg and he is not the mvp MJ should have about 9-10MVPS not 5MVP the nba tries to spread the wealth back in the 80s and 90s now days if your team has the best record and your the best player on that team you get the MVP ala Steve Nash and Kobe Bryant


and about Derozan being better than mayo thats laughable, derozan stats at usc will be but oj mayo will dominate the nba this year average 25+ppg did you guys watch how calm and smooth he was at Las Vegas Summer League thats just a preview for what to except and the few i emphasis few memphis fans oj will lead you to the playoffs at min maybe even do some damage

:roll: :roll: :roll:

[Psileas]

Originally Posted by VCMVP1551
Jordan beats Kareem in the combination of winning, stats and individual accomplishments.

Michael Jordan
Career Stats 30.1 ppg(record), 6.2 rpg, 5.3 apg, 49.7 FG%, 83.5 FT%
MVP's 5
Defensive Player Of The Year 1
Scoring Titles 10(most ever)
Championships 6
Finals MVP's 6(most ever)
Leage Leader in steals 3 times
Rookie Of The Year
9 time all defensive first team(most ever)
10 time all nba first team
60 win seasons 5
50 win seasons 8

Jordan holds the NBA record for highest career regular season scoring average with 30.12 points per game, as well as averaging a record 33.4 points per game in the playoffs. His 41.0 ppg average in the 1993 finals is also a record.

Jordan's resume is untouchable.

Kareem played more seasons and as a result his career totals are better but other than that Jordan beats him easily. Kareem has more MVP's but Jordan was clearly robbed in 1997 as well as possibly in 1993 while Kareem won MVP in a season where his team finished under .500 and missed the playoffs.

Ehh, not that easily. Kareem had a lot of underrated but increbible seasons, as well. First of all, when it comes to career sums and averages, Kareem dropped the second ones just as much as he upped the first.

His career averages at exactly the same ages with Jordan were:

26.9 ppg, 12.7 rpg, 4.1 apg, 3.00+ bpg

Playoffs:

27.5 ppg, 12.9 rpg, 3.6 apg, 2.96 bpg (this includes the 1986-1987 seasons, when Kareem was 39-40, as well as the fact that he missed the playoffs during two prime seasons)

He won all his 6 MVP's during the same period (maybe he shouldn't have won it in 1976, but he was robbed in 1973, not to mention that while Jordan was robbed in 1997, someone could make the same case for Malone in 1998), won 4 titles (2 as the best player of his team, 1 as a close second-actually did better in the MVP voting than Magic), won multiple statistical titles, including 4 blocked shots' leads (could be more if they counted them before 1974), was All-NBA and All-D 11 and 10 times respectively and led the league in PER a record 8 times.

[Piercethetruth]

Ehh, not that easily. Kareem had a lot of underrated but increbible seasons, as well. First of all, when it comes to career sums and averages, Kareem dropped the second ones just as much as he upped the first.

His career averages at exactly the same ages with Jordan were:

26.9 ppg, 12.7 rpg, 4.1 apg, 3.00+ bpg

Playoffs:

27.5 ppg, 12.9 rpg, 3.6 apg, 2.96 bpg (this includes the 1986-1987 seasons, when Kareem was 39-40, as well as the fact that he missed the playoffs during two prime seasons)

He won all his 6 MVP's during the same period (maybe he shouldn't have won it in 1976, but he was robbed in 1973, not to mention that while Jordan was robbed in 1997, someone could make the same case for Malone in 1998), won 4 titles (2 as the best player of his team, 1 as a close second-actually did better in the MVP voting than Magic), won multiple statistical titles, including 4 blocked shots' leads (could be more if they counted them before 1974), was All-NBA and All-D 11 and 10 times respectively and led the league in PER a record 8 times.

Yeah but he only has 2 finals mvp's whereas Jordan has triple the times. Not to mention that Kareem never put up a PER of over 30+ like MJ did 4 times. Also MJ has the highest PER ever and he has the highest scoring average ever in the season, playoffs and finals along with the most playoff points ever.

[Psileas]

Yeah but he only has 2 finals mvp's whereas Jordan has triple the times. Not to mention that Kareem never put up a PER of over 30+ like MJ did 4 times. Also MJ has the highest PER ever and he has the highest scoring average ever in the season, playoffs and finals along with the most playoff points ever.

1) Jordan on the same teams (and at equal ages) with Kareem probably wouldn't have 6 Finals' MVP's, either (BTW, Kareem should have 3 instead of 2, including the 1980 one). For Kareem, his 1975-1979 seasons were wasted in mediocre teams (ages of 28-32, whereas Jordan did play for some of the best teams in the league).

2) Kareem almost certainly posted seasons with a real PER of 30+. You forgot that before 1974, blocked shots were not kept. In 1971-73, Kareem posted PER's of 29.0, 29.9 and 28.5 without his blocked shots being counted. That would mean 2-3 seasons with a real PER of 30+. Note also that this is an index which favors more some things that Jordan clearly had over Kareem (steals, fewer turnovers) than some things Kareem had over Jordan (blocked shots, rebounds).
His career PER is obviously also dragged down due to the advanced age factor (plus the things already mentioned).

3) Jordan doesn't have the record for highest PPG average in a season. I also never mentioned volume scoring alone, but overall game, and even if you consider scoring, it's not as if Kareem was a scorer in the order of Ewing or Zo (i.e, much inferior to Jordan). More like in the order of Shaq.

[TmacsRockets]

1) Jordan on the same teams (and at equal ages) with Kareem probably wouldn't have 6 Finals' MVP's, either (BTW, Kareem should have 3 instead of 2, including the 1980 one). For Kareem, his 1975-1979 seasons were wasted in mediocre teams (ages of 28-32, whereas Jordan did play for some of the best teams in the league).

2) Kareem almost certainly posted seasons with a real PER of 30+. You forgot that before 1974, blocked shots were not kept. In 1971-73, Kareem posted PER's of 29.0, 29.9 and 28.5 without his blocked shots being counted. That would mean 2-3 seasons with a real PER of 30+. Note also that this is an index which favors more some things that Jordan clearly had over Kareem (steals, fewer turnovers) than some things Kareem had over Jordan (blocked shots, rebounds).
His career PER is obviously also dragged down due to the advanced age factor (plus the things already mentioned).

3) Jordan doesn't have the record for highest PPG average in a season. I also never mentioned volume scoring alone, but overall game, and even if you consider scoring, it's not as if Kareem was a scorer in the order of Ewing or Zo (i.e, much inferior to Jordan). More like in the order of Shaq.

It doesn't matter because when talking about the GOAT we are talking about things that actually happened. Besides Magic ended up with more finals mvp's than Kareem even though they were on the same team. Now imagine Jordan who was not only better than Magic, but more efficient.

[guy]

He won all his 6 MVP's during the same period (maybe he shouldn't have won it in 1976, but he was robbed in 1973, not to mention that while Jordan was robbed in 1997, someone could make the same case for Malone in 1998),

No they can't. How so? Jordan played the whole year with an injured hand and without Pippen for 38 games, almost half the season. Malone played without Stockton for less then half of that. Both teams ended up with the same record.

[Psileas]

No they can't. How so? Jordan played the whole year with an injured hand and without Pippen for 38 games, almost half the season. Malone played without Stockton for less then half of that. Both teams ended up with the same record.

Someone can argue that Jordan had the better team overall (for example Rodman-Kukoc, they can be compared to Stockton-Hornacek, but not with Hornacek-Bryon Russell when both Pippen and Stocktonn were missing) and that the Western Conference was becoming stronger than the East, with the traditional Knicks losing strength, with the Lakers becoming a 60-win squad and the Spurs acquiring Duncan and having back Robinson.


It doesn't matter because when talking about the GOAT we are talking about things that actually happened.

Well, then I don't want to hear again about Jordan being robbed in 1993 or 1997, either. I play the same way the other talker plays.
This of course matters only for the MVP stuff, not PER, which should rightfully be addressed for references to per-1974 players.


Besides Magic ended up with more finals mvp's than Kareem even though they were on the same team. Now imagine Jordan who was not only better than Magic, but more efficient.

Thing is, you bring up past-prime (33-42 year old Kareem) and compare him to prime Magic, but don't do the same with Jordan. When Kareem won his titles with Magic, he was 33, 35, 38, 40 and 41, while Magic was 20, 22, 25, 27, 28, respectively.
Was 33-year old Jordan (and Kareem) better than 20-year old Magic? Yes. Was a 35-year old Jordan (and Kareem) better than 22-year old Magic? It's close. Was 38-year old (and on) Jordan (and Kareem) better than 25 (and on)-year old Magic? No.

[guy]

Someone can argue that Jordan had the better team overall (for example Rodman-Kukoc, they can be compared to Stockton-Hornacek, but not with Hornacek-Bryon Russell when both Pippen and Stocktonn were missing) and that the Western Conference was becoming stronger than the East, with the traditional Knicks losing strength, with the Lakers becoming a 60-win squad and the Spurs acquiring Duncan and having back Robinson.


Both conferences had 5 50+ win teams each. A case can be made that the West was stronger, but it wasn't a signficant difference like the 00's for example. And either way you look at it, Pippen missed 38 games, while Stockton missed 18 games. Thats a HUGE difference. For a team to go without their 2nd best player for basically half the season and still tie for best record in the league and win 60+ games is an amazing feat, and this is often overlooked in the Bulls dynasty. Lets not forget the Bulls were the oldest team in the league at the time.

[bleedinpurpleTwo]

Bottom line is Jordan is the GOAT. No one, not even LeBron James can duplicate what Jordan did. The Bulls never lost a series with home court when Jordan played. Magic and Bird each lost at least 2 off the top of my head.

1st of all, you cannot say that Lebron cannot duplicate what Jordan did. Only time will tell.
2nd, MJ played in a weak-ass era of expansion/dilution and then high school kids. The big 3 powers (Lakers, Celts, Pistons) had run their course.
Magic and Bird each played against each other, and other tough teams in a non-diluted era.... so OF COURSE they are gonna lose some.

[bleedinpurpleTwo]

You use the excuse that Kareem played more seasons. We're not talking about that. I know damn well that a lot of Kareem's accomplishments, such as his 19 all-star games are due to him playing so many years. But my response was to the creator of this post who simply stacked up Jordan's stats, winning and individual honors as an argument that Jordan is the GOAT. Well, guess what? Kareem is the GOAT if you stack up the accomplishments.

In the HOF monitor all time leaders on basketballreference.com Kareem is clearly #1:

http://www.databasebasketball.com/leaders/leadershof.htm

And this without taking their college careers into consideration, where Kareem clearly beats Jordan.

repped.

[guy]

2nd, MJ played in a weak-ass era of expansion/dilution and then high school kids. The big 3 powers (Lakers, Celts, Pistons) had run their course.
Magic and Bird each played against each other, and other tough teams in a non-diluted era.... so OF COURSE they are gonna lose some.

First, I really don't understand the dilution argument when basketball got more popular meaning more people actually played, meaning a bigger talent pool. Second, even if the talent was diluted, what does that matter? Jordan was still on an even playing field as everyone else, just like Magic and Bird were in the 80s. Its not like it was an advantage for Jordan and a disadvantage for everyone else. And if the league didn't expand into more teams, its not like Jordan's teams would've just stayed the same, while every other team got better. Who knows, maybe with less teams, instead of Bill Cartwright or Luc Longley, the Bulls get Dikembe Mutombo or Alonzo Mourning as their center.

[TmacsRockets]

1st of all, you cannot say that Lebron cannot duplicate what Jordan did. Only time will tell.
2nd, MJ played in a weak-ass era of expansion/dilution and then high school kids. The big 3 powers (Lakers, Celts, Pistons) had run their course.
Magic and Bird each played against each other, and other tough teams in a non-diluted era.... so OF COURSE they are gonna lose some.

Lakers lost to teams under .500 in the playoffs in the 80's and the Celtics played those teams in the finals.

Also who did the Lakers play out west in the 80's that had even half the talent they had?


Besides the fact that Kareem only won twice as the teams best player shows he is not as good as people make him out to be. Dude got swept by Bill Walton when Kareem's team had the better record.

Jordan NEVER lost a series with the same seed, better seed, better record, same record than the next team. Every other superstar has.

[bleedinpurpleTwo]

First, I really don't understand the dilution argument when basketball got more popular meaning more people actually played, meaning a bigger talent pool. Second, even if the talent was diluted, what does that matter? Jordan was still on an even playing field as everyone else, just like Magic and Bird were in the 80s. Its not like it was an advantage for Jordan and a disadvantage for everyone else. And if the league didn't expand into more teams, its not like Jordan's teams would've just stayed the same, while every other team got better. Who knows, maybe with less teams, instead of Bill Cartwright or Luc Longley, the Bulls get Dikembe Mutombo or Alonzo Mourning as their center.

Here's the answer, greatly simplified:
If any of MJs championship teams had to play against Showtime Lakers, Bird's Celtics, or Prime Bad Boys...MJ would not have won 6 championships and, of course, he would not have those Finals MVPs. I would also argue that his playoffs stats might be reduced given the MUCH higher level of competition.

The Lakers and Celts had to play each other. Same with Pistons. Also, for that matter, the early 80s Philly 76ers.
For MJ's Bulls, there was nothing comparable in the 90s.

[guy]

Here's the answer, greatly simplified:
If any of MJs championship teams had to play against Showtime Lakers, Bird's Celtics, or Prime Bad Boys...MJ would not have won 6 championships and, of course, he would not have those Finals MVPs. I would also argue that his playoffs stats might be reduced given the MUCH higher level of competition.


Ok so basically your saying if Jordan's championship teams played in the 80s, Jordan wouldn't have 6 championships. Thats very likely, and its also very likely that Magic wouldn't have 5, Bird wouldn't have 3, and Isiah wouldn't have 2.

And the only reason his stats might've been affected is cause of having better teammates, NOT the competition. Jordan did go up against the Celtics and Pistons and he put up the better stats then anyone.

Another way to look at it is how many championships would Magic and Bird won in comparison to Jordan if you took away all those teams. If you took away those great Sixer, Celtic, and Piston teams, Magic and Jordan would both have 7 or 8 titles at the most, depending on what would've happened in 1989, and we would be having a discussion of how weak the 80s were. If instead of the Celtics, you took away the great Laker teams, both Jordan and Bird would have 8 titles at the most, and we would be talking about how weak the 80s were.



The Lakers and Celts had to play each other. Same with Pistons. Also, for that matter, the early 80s Philly 76ers.
For MJ's Bulls, there was nothing comparable in the 90s.

Ok well if the 90s was diluted due to expansion, which I don't believe at least not significantly, then what does it matter? Because due to the expansion the Bulls and every other team in the 90s were proportionately less talented then they would've been if there was no expansion. If there was no expansion, then maybe the Bulls would have someone like Alonzo Mourning, while the Suns had Shaq, the Knicks would get Penny Hardaway and Glen Rice. Every team would've been proportionately better then they were. Its not like one team benefited from expansion while everyone else was at a disadvantage. EVERYONE was on an even playing field.

And the argument that the Bulls didn't have a great team to go up against is a bit flawed. I vividly remember in 1993, everyone predicting the Knicks to beat the Bulls that year. So that means that if the Knicks won that year, it wouldn't have been considered an upset like the Rockets over Lakers in 81 and 86. Lets say the Knicks actually won that series, and then went on to win the championship, then go on to the Finals in 94, and possibly win the title due to confidence/swagger carried over from being defending champions, they would've been considered a great team with one of the best defenses ever, and Patrick Ewing would've been ranked much higher. So would the Bulls be considered BETTER cause they lost to them even though they would have one less title? That doesn't make sense.

And lets look at the Rockets as another example. Lets say Jordan never retired, and the Bulls beat the Rockets in 94, but lose to them in 95, and the Rockets are considered to be a greater team. Are they considered better cause they lost to them in 95, instead of if they beat them for the 2nd time in a row?

Another thing that people seem to conveniently forget is that Magic and Bird were there post-expansion for most of these teams, yet they didn't win a title during that time.

[veilside23]

MJ never lost in the finals regardless who he was playing with... 6 out of 6... enough said.

[guy]

Lakers lost to teams under .500 in the playoffs in the 80's and the Celtics played those teams in the finals.

Also who did the Lakers play out west in the 80's that had even half the talent they had?


Besides the fact that Kareem only won twice as the teams best player shows he is not as good as people make him out to be. Dude got swept by Bill Walton when Kareem's team had the better record.

Jordan NEVER lost a series with the same seed, better seed, better record, same record than the next team. Every other superstar has.

Agreed. People like to bring up the Celtics and Lakers competition in those years, and that they had to go up against each other as well as the Sixers and Pistons, but then they conveniently leave out that they lost to other teams in the playoffs that they were supposed to be better then.

[White Chocolate]

MJ never lost in the finals regardless who he was playing with... 6 out of 6... enough said.


And never lost a series with home court, not to mention winning 5 series without home court(Cavs/Knicks in '89, Knicks/Suns in '93, and Jazz in '98).

[Loki]

F*cking Laker fans... :oldlol:

It bears repeating:

Percentage of basketball fans who believe Jordan is the GOAT: 65-85%
Percentage of Laker fans who believe Jordan is the GOAT: 25-40%
Percentage of basketball fans who believe that a Laker player is the GOAT: 10-25%
Percentage of Laker fans who believe that a Laker player (Magic/Kareem/Kobe) is the GOAT: 55-75%


It's like this on every basketball message board on the internet. Draw your own conclusions.

[Scott Pippen]

F*cking Laker fans... :oldlol:

It bears repeating:

Percentage of basketball fans who believe Jordan is the GOAT: 65-85%
Percentage of Laker fans who believe Jordan is the GOAT: 25-40%
Percentage of basketball fans who believe that a Laker player is the GOAT: 10-25%
Percentage of Laker fans who believe that a Laker player (Magic/Kareem/Kobe) is the GOAT: 75-90%


It's like this on every basketball message board on the internet. Draw your own conclusions.


how about Celtic fans (Russell/Bird)?

[Thethirdguy]

Man, before reading this thread I TOTALLY would have thought Mugsy Bogues was the GOAT. Thanks for clearing this up

[Psileas]

F*cking Laker fans...

It bears repeating:

Percentage of basketball fans who believe Jordan is the GOAT: 65-85%
Percentage of Laker fans who believe Jordan is the GOAT: 25-40%
Percentage of basketball fans who believe that a Laker player is the GOAT: 10-25%
Percentage of Laker fans who believe that a Laker player (Magic/Kareem/Kobe) is the GOAT: 75-90%


It's like this on every basketball message board on the internet. Draw your own conclusions.

You're usually good with numbers, but the bolded ones just don't stick well. :)

[Loki]

You're usually good with numbers, but the bolded ones just don't stick well. :)

Hah, didn't notice that. :oldlol: I'll edit it. :D

[Diesel J]

I am going to still this post from a knowledgeable poster on two other sites. This is how he explains why MJ is the GOAT.

Well let's look at some of the candidates first.

1. MJ (6 Titles, 5 League MVP's, 6 Finals MVP's, Career Leader in PPG Regular Season and Playoffs, and Most Points in Playoffs, etc)
2. Magic (5 Titles, 3 League MVP's, 3 Finals MVP's, # of APG titles)
3. Kareem (6 Titles, 6 League MVP's, 3 Finals MVP's, Career Points leader)
4. Russell (11 Titles, 5 League MVP's)
5. Wilt (2 Titles, 4 League MVP's, 1 Finals MVP)

Close
6. Bird (3 Titles, 3 League MVP's, 2 Finals MVP's)
7. Shaq (4 Titles, 1 League MVP's, 3 Finals MVP's)

So if we break it down, let's go by the following:


League MVP's
6 - Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
5 - Michael Jordan
5 - Bill Russell
4 - Wilt Chamberlain
3 - Larry Bird
3 - Magic Johnson
3 - Moses Malone

Finals MVP's
6 - Michael Jordan
3 - Magic Johnson
3 - Shaquille O'neal
3 - Tim Duncan
2 - Kareem
2- Bird
1 - Wilt
1 - Moses Malone

Championships
11 - Bill Russell
6 - Michael Jordan
6 - Kareem
5 - Magic
4 - Shaq
4 - Duncan
2 - Wilt

Career Stats and Records - Regular Season
APG Leader: Magic
RPG Leader: Wilt
All-time Career Points Leader: Kareem
All-time PPG Leader: M.Jordan

Playoff Stats and Records - Playoffs
Total Assists Leader: Magic Johnson
APG Leader Playoffs: Magic Johnson
Total Rebounds Leader: Bill Russell
RPG Leader Playoffs: Bill Russell
All-time Career Points Leader Playoffs: M.Jordan
All-time PPG Leader Playoffs: M.Jordan

So currently the only players that fit the bill in each category are both MJ's.

Now if you add the fact of Defensive Teams that would eliminate Magic. However, I won't do that to him because he is my 2nd favorite player.

Now if you want you can add in the TSN MVP award as well

TSN MVP
7 - Michael Jordan
6 - Kareem
4 - Wilt
4 - Russell
2 - Moses
2 - Shaq
1 - Hakeem
1 - Magic

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/basketball/nba/2003-02-06-dupree-team_x.htm

http://motownsportsrevival.blogspot.com/2006/12/top-50-basketball-players-of-all-time.html

So Kareem has the most league MVP's, MJ the most Finals MVP's, and Russell the most titles.

MJ is near the top in all of them though as is Russell, but Russell doesn't have the numbers to support him.

Also consider

Kareem won League MVP and Finals MVP in 1971
Magic won League MVP and Finals MVP in 1987
MJ won League MVP and Finals MVP in 1991, 1992, 1996 and 1998.


Now all of that is looking at accolades, so how do we go even further in deciding who is the best as we can't just use titles alone. Well what did they did yearly and in the playoffs?




http://www.answers.com/topic/nba-records

The Playoffs is where you make your name and where greatness is defined. But MJ was more consistent and holds records as well such as:

Highest PPG Average: 30.12
Most seasons leading league in Points: 11
Most scoring titles: 10
Highest PER Efficiency: 27.91

Also, MJ is no doubt the greatest playoff performer and IMO he was the greatest Road Player Ever. Most of his greatest feats happened on the road.

As far as the playoffs go, here are a few things that stuck out in my mind:

Playoffs
Most Points Per Game (min. 25 games)
33.4 by Michael Jordan (179 games)

Most Points in a Game
63 by Michael Jordan

Most 50 Point Games
8 by Michael Jordan

Most 40 Point Games
38 by Michael Jordan

Most 30 Point Games
109 by Michael Jordan

Most 20 Point Games
174 by Michael Jordan (he played 179 playoff games and scored under 20 only 5 times)

These players all lost these series with Homecourt advantage which means they were the favorite. If someone was injured like a main star then that factors in, but if not that doesn't factor in the discussion.



MJ never lost a series with homecourt advantage/better seed/better record. What does that mean, well he was the only superstar to never lose a series in which his team was considered the favorite and better team. All the other legends lost series.

Also consider the following:

Is 18% a good percentage?

In what you might ask... 18% winning percentage...

Pretty awful right?

Well in 60 years of NBA Basketball only 11 league leading scorers have won a championship... That's 18.333333%...

Their names are: Shaquille O'Neal, Michael Jordan, Kareem Abdul Jabbar, George Mikan and some guy named Joe Fulks...

Most of these players were dominant Centers, who did more than just score.

That means that non center players who led the league in scoring have won in an amazing 10% of the time.. and only one player did it... Michael Jordan. In one era. That phenomenon of nature who won six...

10% winning historically!!! 10 PERCENT!!!

I will argue that the odds are against a high scoring guard from winning it all.

Here are the playoff top games.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/basketball/nba/2002/playoffs/top_individual_points/

Top Playoff Single-Game Scoring Performances
Player Team Opponent Total Date
Michael Jordan Chicago at Boston 63 April 20, 1986
Elgin Baylor L.A. Lakers at Boston 61 April 14, 1962
Wilt Chamberlain Philadelphia Syracuse 56 March 22, 1962
Michael Jordan Chicago at Miami 56 April 29, 1992
Charles Barkley Phoenix at Golden State 56 May 4, 1994
Michael Jordan Chicago Cleveland 55 May 1, 1988
Michael Jordan Chicago Phoenix 55 June 16, 1993
Michael Jordan Chicago Washington 55 April 27, 1997
John Havlicek Boston Atlanta 54 April 1, 1973
Michael Jordan Chicago New York 54 May 31, 1993
Allen Iverson Philadelphia Toronto 54 May 9, 2001
Wilt Chamberlain Philadelphia Syracuse 53 March 14, 1960
Jerry West L.A. Lakers Boston 53 April 23, 1969
Jerry West L.A. Lakers Baltimore 52 April 5, 1965
Allen Iverson Philadelphia Toronto 52 May 16, 2001
Sam Jones Boston at New York 51 March 28, 1967
Eric Floyd Golden State L.A. Lakers 51 May 10, 1987
Bob Cousy Boston Syracuse 50* March 21, 1953
Bob Petit St. Louis Boston 50 April 12, 1958
Wilt Chamberlain Philadelphia at Boston 50 March 22, 1950
Wilt Chamberlain San Francisco St. Louis 50 April 10, 1964
Billy Cunningham Philadelphia Milwaukee 50 April 1, 1970
Bob McAdoo Buffalo Washington 50 April 18, 1975
Dominique Wilkins Atlanta Detroit 50 April 19, 1986
Michael Jordan Chicago Cleveland 50 April 28, 1988
Michael Jordan Chicago Cleveland 50^ May 5, 1989
Karl Malone Utah Seattle 50 April 22, 2000
Vince Carter Toronto Philadelphia 50 May 11, 2001
*4 overtimes
^overtime

This is courtesy of NBA on NBC here:

NBA PLAYOFFS HIGH SCORING GAME BY YEAR
1946-47 - 37 Joe Fulks, PHW vs CHI at PHW 16Apr47
1947-48 - 34 Connie Simmons, BLT vs NYK at BLT 27Mar48
1948-49 - 42 George Mikan, MPL vs WSC 4Apr49 @ MPL
1949-50 - 40 George Mikan, MPL vs SYR at MPL 23Apr50
1950-51 - 41 George Mikan, MPL vs IDS at MPL 21Mar51
1951-52 - 47 George Mikan, MPL at ROC 29Mar52
1952-53 - 50 Bob Cousy, BOS vs SYR at BOS 21Mar53
1953-54 - 36 Dolph Schayes, SYR at NYK 21Mar54
1954-55 - 32 Bill Sharman, BOS at SYR 24Mar55
1955-56 - 43 Neil Johnson, PHW at SYR 25Mar56
1956-57 - 42 Bob Leonard, MPL vs STL at MPL 25Mar57
1957-58 - 50 Bob Pettit, STL vs BOS at STL 12Apr58
1958-59 - 40 Cliff Hagan, STL vs MPL at STL 21Mar59
1959-60 - 53 Wilt Chamberlain, PHW vs SYR at PHW 14Mar60
1960-61 - 47 Elgin Baylor, LAL at DET 18Mar61
............... 47 Elgin Baylor, LAL at STL 27Mar61
1961-62 - 61 Elgin Baylor, LAL at BOS 14Apr62
1962-63 - 47 Sam Jones, BOS vs CIN at BOS 10Apr63
1963-64 - 50 Wilt Chamberlain, SFW vs STL at SFW 10Apr64
1964-65 - 52 Jerry West, LAL vs BAL at LAL 3Apr65
1965-66 - 46 Wilt Chamberlain, PHI vs BOS at PHI 12Apr66
1966-67 - 55 Rick Barry, SFW vs PHI at SFW 18Apr67
1967-68 - 46 Zelmo Beaty, STL vs SFW 23Mar68 @ STL
1968-69 - 53 Jerry West, LAL vs BOS at LAL 23Apr69
1969-70 - 50 Billy Cunningham, PHI vs MIL at PHI 1Apr70
1970-71 - 39 Gail Goodrich, LAL at CHI 28Mar71
1971-72 - 43 John Havlicek BOS at ATL 31Mar72
1972-73 - 54 John Havlicek, BOS vs ATL at BOS 1Apr73
1973-74 - 44 Bob McAdoo, BUF vs BOS 6Apr74 at BUF
............... 44 Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, MIL at CHI 18Apr74
1974-75 - 50 Bob McAdoo, BUF vs WAS at BUF 18Apr75
1975-76 - 45 Fred Brown, SEA vs PHO at SEA 15Apr76
1976-77 - 45 Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, LAL vs GSW at LAL 29Apr77
1977-78 - 46 George Gervin, SAN vs WAS at SAN 18Apr78
1978-79 - 42 George Gervin, SAN vs WAS at SAN 11May79
............... 42 George Gervin, SAN at WAS 18May79
1979-80 - 44 George Gervin, SAN vs HOU at SAN 4Apr80
1980-81 - 42 Calvin Murphy, HOU at SAN 17Apr81
............... 42 Moses Malone, HOU vs KCK at HOU 26Apr81
1981-82 - 39 George Gervin, SAN vs LAL at SAN 14May82
............... 39 Andrew Toney, PHI vs BOS at PHI 16May82
1982-83 - 42 Alex English, DEN vs PHO at PHO 24Apr83
............... 42 George Gervin, SAN at DEN 26Apr83
1983-84 - 46 Bernard King, NYK at DET 19Apr84
............... 46 Bernard King, NYK vs DET at NYK 22Apr84
1984-85 - 43 Rolando Blackman, DAL vs POR at DAL 18Apr85
............... 43 Larry Bird, BOS vs DET at BOS 8May85
1985-86 - 63 Michael Jordan, CHI at BOS 20Apr86
1986-87 - 51 Sleepy Floyd, GSW vs LAL at GSW 10May87
1987-88 - 55 Michael Jordan, CHI vs CLE at CHI 1May88
1988-89 - 50 Michael Jordan, CHI vs CLE at CHI 5May89
1989-90 - 49 Michael Jordan, CHI at PHI 11May90
1990-91 - 46 Michael Jordan, CHI at PHI 10May91
1991-92 - 56 Michael Jordan, CHI at MIA 29Apr92
1992-93 - 55 Michael Jordan, CHI vs PHO at CHI 16Jun93
1993-94 - 56 Charles Barkley, PHO at GSW 4May94
1994-95 - 48 Michael Jordan, CHI at CHA 28Apr95
1995-96 - 46 Michael Jordan, CHI at NYK 11May96
1996-97 - 55 Michael Jordan, CHI vs WAS at CHI 27Apr97
1997-98 - 45 Michael Jordan, CHI at UTA 14Jun98
1998-99 - 37 Tim Duncan, SAN at LAL 22May99
............... 37 Scottie Pippen, HOU vs LAL at HOU 13May99
............... 37 Shaquille O'Neal, LAL vs HOU at HOU 15May99
............... 37 Allen Iverson, PHI vs ORL at PHI 15May99
1999-00 - 50 Karl Malone, UTA vs SEA at UTA 22Apr00
-----
ALL-TIME HIGHEST SCORING AVERAGES, NBA PLAYOFFS
Jerry West, LAL vs BAL, 1965..... 46.3
Michael Jordan, CHI vs CLE, 1988..... 45.2
Michael Jordan, CHI vs MIA, 1992..... 45.0

ALL-TIME HIGHEST SCORING AVERAGES, NBA CHAMPIONSHIP SERIES/NBA FINALS
Michael Jordan, CHI vs PHO, 1993..... 41.0
Rick Barry, SFW vs PHI, 1965..... 40.8
Elgin Baylor, LAL vs BOS, 1962..... 40.6


Also MJ has 6 playoffs series where he averaged at least 40 ppg.

:applause:

[Jacks3]

Give me Kareem.:hammertime:

[andgar923]

I am going to still this post from a knowledgeable poster on two other sites. This is how he explains why MJ is the GOAT.

Well let's look at some of the candidates first.

1. MJ (6 Titles, 5 League MVP's, 6 Finals MVP's, Career Leader in PPG Regular Season and Playoffs, and Most Points in Playoffs, etc)
2. Magic (5 Titles, 3 League MVP's, 3 Finals MVP's, # of APG titles)
3. Kareem (6 Titles, 6 League MVP's, 3 Finals MVP's, Career Points leader)
4. Russell (11 Titles, 5 League MVP's)
5. Wilt (2 Titles, 4 League MVP's, 1 Finals MVP)

Close
6. Bird (3 Titles, 3 League MVP's, 2 Finals MVP's)
7. Shaq (4 Titles, 1 League MVP's, 3 Finals MVP's)

So if we break it down, let's go by the following:


League MVP's
6 - Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
5 - Michael Jordan
5 - Bill Russell
4 - Wilt Chamberlain
3 - Larry Bird
3 - Magic Johnson
3 - Moses Malone

Finals MVP's
6 - Michael Jordan
3 - Magic Johnson
3 - Shaquille O'neal
3 - Tim Duncan
2 - Kareem
2- Bird
1 - Wilt
1 - Moses Malone

Championships
11 - Bill Russell
6 - Michael Jordan
6 - Kareem
5 - Magic
4 - Shaq
4 - Duncan
2 - Wilt

Career Stats and Records - Regular Season
APG Leader: Magic
RPG Leader: Wilt
All-time Career Points Leader: Kareem
All-time PPG Leader: M.Jordan

Playoff Stats and Records - Playoffs
Total Assists Leader: Magic Johnson
APG Leader Playoffs: Magic Johnson
Total Rebounds Leader: Bill Russell
RPG Leader Playoffs: Bill Russell
All-time Career Points Leader Playoffs: M.Jordan
All-time PPG Leader Playoffs: M.Jordan

So currently the only players that fit the bill in each category are both MJ's.

Now if you add the fact of Defensive Teams that would eliminate Magic. However, I won't do that to him because he is my 2nd favorite player.

Now if you want you can add in the TSN MVP award as well

TSN MVP
7 - Michael Jordan
6 - Kareem
4 - Wilt
4 - Russell
2 - Moses
2 - Shaq
1 - Hakeem
1 - Magic

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/basketball/nba/2003-02-06-dupree-team_x.htm

http://motownsportsrevival.blogspot.com/2006/12/top-50-basketball-players-of-all-time.html

So Kareem has the most league MVP's, MJ the most Finals MVP's, and Russell the most titles.

MJ is near the top in all of them though as is Russell, but Russell doesn't have the numbers to support him.

Also consider

Kareem won League MVP and Finals MVP in 1971
Magic won League MVP and Finals MVP in 1987
MJ won League MVP and Finals MVP in 1991, 1992, 1996 and 1998.


Now all of that is looking at accolades, so how do we go even further in deciding who is the best as we can't just use titles alone. Well what did they did yearly and in the playoffs?




http://www.answers.com/topic/nba-records

The Playoffs is where you make your name and where greatness is defined. But MJ was more consistent and holds records as well such as:

Highest PPG Average: 30.12
Most seasons leading league in Points: 11
Most scoring titles: 10
Highest PER Efficiency: 27.91

Also, MJ is no doubt the greatest playoff performer and IMO he was the greatest Road Player Ever. Most of his greatest feats happened on the road.

As far as the playoffs go, here are a few things that stuck out in my mind:

Playoffs
Most Points Per Game (min. 25 games)
33.4 by Michael Jordan (179 games)

Most Points in a Game
63 by Michael Jordan

Most 50 Point Games
8 by Michael Jordan

Most 40 Point Games
38 by Michael Jordan

Most 30 Point Games
109 by Michael Jordan

Most 20 Point Games
174 by Michael Jordan (he played 179 playoff games and scored under 20 only 5 times)

These players all lost these series with Homecourt advantage which means they were the favorite. If someone was injured like a main star then that factors in, but if not that doesn't factor in the discussion.



MJ never lost a series with homecourt advantage/better seed/better record. What does that mean, well he was the only superstar to never lose a series in which his team was considered the favorite and better team. All the other legends lost series.

Also consider the following:

Is 18% a good percentage?

In what you might ask... 18% winning percentage...

Pretty awful right?

Well in 60 years of NBA Basketball only 11 league leading scorers have won a championship... That's 18.333333%...

Their names are: Shaquille O'Neal, Michael Jordan, Kareem Abdul Jabbar, George Mikan and some guy named Joe Fulks...

Most of these players were dominant Centers, who did more than just score.

That means that non center players who led the league in scoring have won in an amazing 10% of the time.. and only one player did it... Michael Jordan. In one era. That phenomenon of nature who won six...

10% winning historically!!! 10 PERCENT!!!

I will argue that the odds are against a high scoring guard from winning it all.

Here are the playoff top games.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/basketball/nba/2002/playoffs/top_individual_points/

Top Playoff Single-Game Scoring Performances
Player Team Opponent Total Date
Michael Jordan Chicago at Boston 63 April 20, 1986
Elgin Baylor L.A. Lakers at Boston 61 April 14, 1962
Wilt Chamberlain Philadelphia Syracuse 56 March 22, 1962
Michael Jordan Chicago at Miami 56 April 29, 1992
Charles Barkley Phoenix at Golden State 56 May 4, 1994
Michael Jordan Chicago Cleveland 55 May 1, 1988
Michael Jordan Chicago Phoenix 55 June 16, 1993
Michael Jordan Chicago Washington 55 April 27, 1997
John Havlicek Boston Atlanta 54 April 1, 1973
Michael Jordan Chicago New York 54 May 31, 1993
Allen Iverson Philadelphia Toronto 54 May 9, 2001
Wilt Chamberlain Philadelphia Syracuse 53 March 14, 1960
Jerry West L.A. Lakers Boston 53 April 23, 1969
Jerry West L.A. Lakers Baltimore 52 April 5, 1965
Allen Iverson Philadelphia Toronto 52 May 16, 2001
Sam Jones Boston at New York 51 March 28, 1967
Eric Floyd Golden State L.A. Lakers 51 May 10, 1987
Bob Cousy Boston Syracuse 50* March 21, 1953
Bob Petit St. Louis Boston 50 April 12, 1958
Wilt Chamberlain Philadelphia at Boston 50 March 22, 1950
Wilt Chamberlain San Francisco St. Louis 50 April 10, 1964
Billy Cunningham Philadelphia Milwaukee 50 April 1, 1970
Bob McAdoo Buffalo Washington 50 April 18, 1975
Dominique Wilkins Atlanta Detroit 50 April 19, 1986
Michael Jordan Chicago Cleveland 50 April 28, 1988
Michael Jordan Chicago Cleveland 50^ May 5, 1989
Karl Malone Utah Seattle 50 April 22, 2000
Vince Carter Toronto Philadelphia 50 May 11, 2001
*4 overtimes
^overtime

This is courtesy of NBA on NBC here:

NBA PLAYOFFS HIGH SCORING GAME BY YEAR
1946-47 - 37 Joe Fulks, PHW vs CHI at PHW 16Apr47
1947-48 - 34 Connie Simmons, BLT vs NYK at BLT 27Mar48
1948-49 - 42 George Mikan, MPL vs WSC 4Apr49 @ MPL
1949-50 - 40 George Mikan, MPL vs SYR at MPL 23Apr50
1950-51 - 41 George Mikan, MPL vs IDS at MPL 21Mar51
1951-52 - 47 George Mikan, MPL at ROC 29Mar52
1952-53 - 50 Bob Cousy, BOS vs SYR at BOS 21Mar53
1953-54 - 36 Dolph Schayes, SYR at NYK 21Mar54
1954-55 - 32 Bill Sharman, BOS at SYR 24Mar55
1955-56 - 43 Neil Johnson, PHW at SYR 25Mar56
1956-57 - 42 Bob Leonard, MPL vs STL at MPL 25Mar57
1957-58 - 50 Bob Pettit, STL vs BOS at STL 12Apr58
1958-59 - 40 Cliff Hagan, STL vs MPL at STL 21Mar59
1959-60 - 53 Wilt Chamberlain, PHW vs SYR at PHW 14Mar60
1960-61 - 47 Elgin Baylor, LAL at DET 18Mar61
............... 47 Elgin Baylor, LAL at STL 27Mar61
1961-62 - 61 Elgin Baylor, LAL at BOS 14Apr62
1962-63 - 47 Sam Jones, BOS vs CIN at BOS 10Apr63
1963-64 - 50 Wilt Chamberlain, SFW vs STL at SFW 10Apr64
1964-65 - 52 Jerry West, LAL vs BAL at LAL 3Apr65
1965-66 - 46 Wilt Chamberlain, PHI vs BOS at PHI 12Apr66
1966-67 - 55 Rick Barry, SFW vs PHI at SFW 18Apr67
1967-68 - 46 Zelmo Beaty, STL vs SFW 23Mar68 @ STL
1968-69 - 53 Jerry West, LAL vs BOS at LAL 23Apr69
1969-70 - 50 Billy Cunningham, PHI vs MIL at PHI 1Apr70
1970-71 - 39 Gail Goodrich, LAL at CHI 28Mar71
1971-72 - 43 John Havlicek BOS at ATL 31Mar72
1972-73 - 54 John Havlicek, BOS vs ATL at BOS 1Apr73
1973-74 - 44 Bob McAdoo, BUF vs BOS 6Apr74 at BUF
............... 44 Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, MIL at CHI 18Apr74
1974-75 - 50 Bob McAdoo, BUF vs WAS at BUF 18Apr75
1975-76 - 45 Fred Brown, SEA vs PHO at SEA 15Apr76
1976-77 - 45 Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, LAL vs GSW at LAL 29Apr77
1977-78 - 46 George Gervin, SAN vs WAS at SAN 18Apr78
1978-79 - 42 George Gervin, SAN vs WAS at SAN 11May79
............... 42 George Gervin, SAN at WAS 18May79
1979-80 - 44 George Gervin, SAN vs HOU at SAN 4Apr80
1980-81 - 42 Calvin Murphy, HOU at SAN 17Apr81
............... 42 Moses Malone, HOU vs KCK at HOU 26Apr81
1981-82 - 39 George Gervin, SAN vs LAL at SAN 14May82
............... 39 Andrew Toney, PHI vs BOS at PHI 16May82
1982-83 - 42 Alex English, DEN vs PHO at PHO 24Apr83
............... 42 George Gervin, SAN at DEN 26Apr83
1983-84 - 46 Bernard King, NYK at DET 19Apr84
............... 46 Bernard King, NYK vs DET at NYK 22Apr84
1984-85 - 43 Rolando Blackman, DAL vs POR at DAL 18Apr85
............... 43 Larry Bird, BOS vs DET at BOS 8May85
1985-86 - 63 Michael Jordan, CHI at BOS 20Apr86
1986-87 - 51 Sleepy Floyd, GSW vs LAL at GSW 10May87
1987-88 - 55 Michael Jordan, CHI vs CLE at CHI 1May88
1988-89 - 50 Michael Jordan, CHI vs CLE at CHI 5May89
1989-90 - 49 Michael Jordan, CHI at PHI 11May90
1990-91 - 46 Michael Jordan, CHI at PHI 10May91
1991-92 - 56 Michael Jordan, CHI at MIA 29Apr92
1992-93 - 55 Michael Jordan, CHI vs PHO at CHI 16Jun93
1993-94 - 56 Charles Barkley, PHO at GSW 4May94
1994-95 - 48 Michael Jordan, CHI at CHA 28Apr95
1995-96 - 46 Michael Jordan, CHI at NYK 11May96
1996-97 - 55 Michael Jordan, CHI vs WAS at CHI 27Apr97
1997-98 - 45 Michael Jordan, CHI at UTA 14Jun98
1998-99 - 37 Tim Duncan, SAN at LAL 22May99
............... 37 Scottie Pippen, HOU vs LAL at HOU 13May99
............... 37 Shaquille O'Neal, LAL vs HOU at HOU 15May99
............... 37 Allen Iverson, PHI vs ORL at PHI 15May99
1999-00 - 50 Karl Malone, UTA vs SEA at UTA 22Apr00
-----
ALL-TIME HIGHEST SCORING AVERAGES, NBA PLAYOFFS
Jerry West, LAL vs BAL, 1965..... 46.3
Michael Jordan, CHI vs CLE, 1988..... 45.2
Michael Jordan, CHI vs MIA, 1992..... 45.0

ALL-TIME HIGHEST SCORING AVERAGES, NBA CHAMPIONSHIP SERIES/NBA FINALS
Michael Jordan, CHI vs PHO, 1993..... 41.0
Rick Barry, SFW vs PHI, 1965..... 40.8
Elgin Baylor, LAL vs BOS, 1962..... 40.6


Also MJ has 6 playoffs series where he averaged at least 40 ppg.


Wow

How can anybody argue against that?

[andgar923]

http://www.basketball-reference.com/about/glossary.html

MJ has led in Offensive Win Shares 8x, and was 2nd 1x.


1.) Offensive Win Shares
1984-85 NBA 28.7 (3)
1986-87 NBA 29.0 (4)
1987-88 NBA 39.6 (1)
1988-89 NBA 42.7 (1)
1989-90 NBA 44.3 (1)
1990-91 NBA 40.6 (1)
1991-92 NBA 34.2 (1)
1992-93 NBA 34.1 (1)
1995-96 NBA 38.5 (1)
1996-97 NBA 37.3 (1)
1997-98 NBA 28.6 (2)
NBA 413.5 (1)
Career 413.5 (1)


2.) MJ has led in Win Shares 8x, and was 2nd 1x



Win Shares
1984-85 NBA 40 (3)
1986-87 NBA 43 (4)
1987-88 NBA 58 (1)
1988-89 NBA 59 (1)
1989-90 NBA 59 (1)
1990-91 NBA 56 (1)
1991-92 NBA 51 (1)
1992-93 NBA 50 (1)
1995-96 NBA 57 (1)
1996-97 NBA 52 (1)
1997-98 NBA 45 (2)


3.)



MJ has led in Player Wins 7x, and has finished second 3x including his rookie season.

Player Wins
1984-85 NBA 13.2 (2)
1986-87 NBA 15.9 (1)
1987-88 NBA 17.4 (1)
1988-89 NBA 16.8 (1)
1989-90 NBA 16.0 (1)
1990-91 NBA 15.8 (1)
1991-92 NBA 15.2 (1)
1992-93 NBA 15.4 (2)
1995-96 NBA 15.8 (2)
1996-97 NBA 14.8 (1)
1997-98 NBA 14.2 (2)


No other player in the GOAT discussion has dominated like that. We don't know what Wilt's win shares, player wins would have been, so we can only go by what we know and have, but despite that, Wilt only won twice and only once as a dominant player in the league. Good enough to be 2nd, but not the GOAT especially when one player has dominated like MJ did in the season, playoffs, and finals.

In my mind MJ is the GOAT, and I provided ample evidence of why I feel that way, but it is really close as guys like Kareem, Russell, Wilt, Magic and Bird on right their in the discussion, but when you consider how good MJ was on both ends of the court and how efficient he was as a player and the fact that he was a guard that in itself helps his case much more.


No one ever dominated for a decade in the season, playoffs and finals like MJ. Others may have dominated the season just as good, but not all 3 especially at the same time. Also MJ was depended upon more than any other Legend and that is why he won all of the Finals MVP and also the reason why he is the GOAT.

Amen!

[bleedinpurpleTwo]

who the fcuk bumped this thread.
whoever it was...you suk.

talking about MJ is like listening to the Beatles.
yes, they were great, but they are old news and I've heard enuf for 2 lifetimes.

[Diesel J]

Wow

How can anybody argue against that?


They can't:eek: :oldlol:

[DCL]

was this thread necessary? you're introducing jordan as if nobody knows what he did.

[White Chocolate]

was this thread necessary? you're introducing jordan as if nobody knows what he did.


Michael Jordan? Who the f*ck is that?

[Psileas]

Wow

How can anybody argue against that?


They can't :eek: :oldlol:

A lot of its points have been argued before by multiple posters in multiple boards (since it has been copied from one board to another). In RealGM, it had been so overused that it became an inside joke.

It was of course a nice effort, with a lot of points. That said, if we break the post down, not everything posted there is inarguable or absolute (for example, the statistic of win shares wasn't available before '74 and therefore can't cover the whole case). Some determined fan with a lot of time in his hands may raise a lot of good points for a couple of other players, as well.

[ruslan]

Idiot this is a universal fact, no need to post this **** on a BASKETBALL board. Any knowledgable fan of the NBA would know this common sense. Anyone who doesn't agree is a misformed individual. Thank You.

[gpfanz]

NO! YOU ALL ARE FOOLS! :mad:


Kobe is the GOAT


Kobe wins the most self centered player of all time hands down :banghead:

[MiseryCityTexas]

michael joran is the goat because he won championships with scottie pippen and a bunch of scrubs. players these days have three or four all stars on their team and cant even get out of the first round of the play-offs.

[Psileas]

Idiot this is a universal fact, no need to post this **** on a BASKETBALL board. Any knowledgable fan of the NBA would know this common sense. Anyone who doesn't agree is a misformed individual. Thank You.

If you're talking to me, let me speak to you calmly: Grow the F up a few years, study 10% as much history as some others have, get away from idol worshipping, acquire perspective, and then come back and talk. Until then, calling names gives you only authority on 8 and 10-year olds.

If you're not talking to me, again, grow up and realize that this isn't a chat room where there's no room for debating, arguing and posting long messages (although the person who brought this thread up hardly posted anything, he just copied-pasted the whole thing).

[gts]

i love when people use awards and titles to make an argument.... awards and rings are the results of a team effort, no player has ever won a mvp or nba title playing 1 on 5... so that's just alot of wasted typing

[lilyi]

titles are overrated... mj was on a stacked team so it was easy to get those stats and titles. lets see if he had smush parker and kwame brown as his best teammates....

[OldSchoolBBall]

i love when people use awards and titles to make an argument.... awards and rings are the results of a team effort, no player has ever won a mvp or nba title playing 1 on 5... so that's just alot of wasted typing

So let's use statistical production, then. Oh, wait, we're not supposed to use that either, right? I guess we'll just have to take everyone's word for it when they say that "player X" is the best, since the only evidence they'll accept is subjective!

Btw, All-NBA teams, DPOY voting etc. are not team-based.

[lilyi]

So let's use statistical production, then. Oh, wait, we're not supposed to use that either, right? I guess we'll just have to take everyone's word for it when they say that "player X" is the best, since the only evidence they'll accept is subjective!

Btw, All-NBA teams, DPOY voting etc. are not team-based.

he has good stats becuz he has good teammates

[OldSchoolBBall]

titles are overrated... mj was on a stacked team so it was easy to get those stats and titles. lets see if he had smush parker and kwame brown as his best teammates....

Having a better team does make winning titles easier, obviously. LOL @ calling those teams "stacked," by the way. :oldlol:

Jordan had very bad teams early in his career and still put up (far) better numbers than your favorite player. Deal with it.

[OldSchoolBBall]

he has good stats becuz he has good teammates

He had even better stats when he had poor teammates. Get out of here with that nonsense. :oldlol: In both cases (on poor or good teams) he had better stats than your favorite player. Boo freaking hoo for you.

[lilyi]

Having a better team does make winning titles easier, obviously. LOL @ calling those teams "stacked," by the way. :oldlol:

Jordan had very bad teams early in his career and still put up (far) better numbers than your favorite player. Deal with it.


Having a better team does make winning titles easier

This is prob the stupidest thing i ever heard....

Jordan DID NOT WIN ANY TITLES WHEN HE HAD BAD TEAMMATES... If Kobe he had gasol bynum and the good lakers bench for his whole career he would have 6 rings also. learn ur facts buddy

[Yung D-Will]

Kobe has never even been the best player in any season in the league. When he got titles he wasn't even the best player on his own team. He has never gotten out of the 1st round as the best player on his own team. He doesn't have a league nor finals mvp at all and never finished in top 2 in PER, Win Shares, Player Wins. Kobe needs to settle for being a top 3 player in the league nowadays or in any given season because he has never been the best in the league ever.

Jordan is better than Kobe, But Kobe has been the best player in the leauge before he's been the best player in the league for the past 3 years.

[lilyi]

Jordan is better than Kobe, But Kobe has been the best player in the leauge before he's been the best player in the league for the past 3 years.
ppl think jordan is better than kobe becuz he won more, but ppl dont realize how good his teammates where

[Riker]

i love when people use awards and titles to make an argument.... awards and rings are the results of a team effort, no player has ever won a mvp or nba title playing 1 on 5... so that's just alot of wasted typing

Um...high five genius

Stats don't display how good player is. Because it takes teammates to create plays and weak defense to exploit.

So basically, every point your favorite player made (I won't take a wild guess) should be credited to opposing defense and their flaws.

There. NBA just took a whole nother perspectives.

Damn you guys are running in place with your hates...

[lilyi]

Um...high five genius

Stats don't display how good player is. Because it takes teammates to create plays and weak defense to exploit.

So basically, every point your favorite player made (I won't take a wild guess) should be credited to opposing defense and their flaws.

There. NBA just took a whole nother perspectives.

Damn you guys are running in place with your hates...


how does that prove jordan is the GOAT?

[OldSchoolBBall]

This is prob the stupidest thing i ever heard....

Jordan DID NOT WIN ANY TITLES WHEN HE HAD BAD TEAMMATES... If Kobe he had gasol bynum and the good lakers bench for his whole career he would have 6 rings also. learn ur facts buddy

How much does that crystal ball cost? :oldlol:

You said that STATS are dependent on having good teammates. I showed you that Jordan put up better stats (and far better stats than your boy has ever put up) when he was on bad teams. Ergo, you lose.

"learn ur facts buddy." :oldlol:

[lilyi]

How much does that crystal ball cost? :oldlol:

You said that STATS are dependent on having good teammates. I showed you that Jordan put up better stats (and far better stats than your boy has ever put up) when he was on bad teams. Ergo, you lose.

"learn ur facts buddy." :oldlol:

but did jordan win titles on those bad teams?

[mamba24]

I guess the guy who made this post...imagines that he has discovered a secret...while the rest of the world thinks that MJ was a washout...

News Flash Buddy everyone knows and no one gives a damn...stop living in the past...its 09 not 1998...let MJ walk into the sunset...

jeez...wanna talk about something usefull?

lets talk basketball

I got

Olowokandi
Bradley
That gay guy who played in the NBA
Joe Smith
Jerry Stackhouse


and you got

Jordan (Jared Jordan)
James
Marbury
Carter
Allen

but not so fast i meant these players.

(Jared Jordan)
(Jerome James)
Marbury
Antony Carter
Tony Allen


Whose gonna win in a 7 game series not for the NBA title but for the world title.

[Riker]

how does that prove jordan is the GOAT?

It doesn't. He isn't.

All NBA stars are frauds that fluked out on exploiting opponents bad moments on defense.

It's all a conspiracy. No, really, it is.

There is not one single NBA player in the league that played on his own 1-on-5 and earned his accolades.

And as for teams that won - no - those teams didnt WIN anything.

It's just the case of other teams LOSING - and the other teams being at the right place in the right time.

[gts]

So let's use statistical production, then. Oh, wait, we're not supposed to use that either, right? I guess we'll just have to take everyone's word for it when they say that "player X" is the best, since the only evidence they'll accept is subjective!

Btw, All-NBA teams, DPOY voting etc. are not team-based.no you can use stats and such just not things that are the results of team work as the basis of an argument... i think the only place rings can be used is an argument for greatest owner...lol

i like to use actual on court contributions tangible things that you can say "he did that", mvp. dpoy awards are nice but look at the citeria.. oh year we don't know what it is and it seems to change yearly...

as an example i think if using MVP awards kareems are greater than MJs... why? because his were given to him by the players the men he played against, battled against and fought along side night after night over his career not a bunch of sportwriters who may not even have seen his games and are using the box score and stat sheet to choose...
kareems 6 mvps twice as valuble as mj's 6... see how that works... same amount of mvps completely different criterias for being awarded almost makes mj's look worthless when you compare the criteria for the award

[lilyi]

no you can use stats and such just not things that are the results of team work as the basis of an argument... i think the only place rings can be used is an argument for greatest owner...lol

i like to use actual on court contributions tangible things that you can say "he did that", mvp. dpoy awards are nice but look at the citeria.. oh year we don't know what it is and it seems to change yearly...

as an example i think if using MVP awards kareems are greater than MJs... why? because his were given to him by the players the men he played against, battled against and fought along sie night after night over his career not a bunch of sportwriters who may not even have seen his games and are using the box score and stat sheet to choose...
kareems 6 mvps twice as valuble as mj's 6... see how that works... same amount of mvps completely different criterias for being awarded almost makes mj's look worthless when you compare the criteria for the award


too long didnt read

[Scott Pippen]

The only players in conversation for NBA GOAT:


1a. Jordan
1b. Chamberlain
1c. Kareem
4. Russell
5a. Magic
5b. Bird



Period.

(Of course order can be debated.)

[lilyi]

The only players in conversation for NBA GOAT:


1a. Jordan
1b. Chamberlain
1c. Kareem
4. Russell
5a. Magic
5b. Bird



Period. (Of course order can be debated.)

This is the GOAT

1. WIlt
2. Russell
3. Mj
4. Kareeeeem
5. Magaics

[Yung D-Will]

ppl think jordan is better than kobe becuz he won more, but ppl dont realize how good his teammates where

Hay im not denying Kobe is the best player in the league right now but if you watch Jordan I don't know if their can be any denying that he's the best player ever. I wasn't born back then to see Jordan play so Kobe is the best player i've seen in my lifetime but from what I've seen from Jordan highlights he was truly a spectacular player.

[lilyi]

Hay im not denying Kobe is the best player in the league right now but if you watch Jordan I don't know if their can be any denying that he's the best player ever. I wasn't born back then to see Jordan play so Kobe is the best player i've seen in my lifetime but from what I've seen from Jordan highlights he was truly a spectacular player.

goo search A MIX OF KOBE HITTING CLUTCH SHOTS! kobe highlights are also better than jordans but im not saying highlights mean the player is better dont get it wrong..

[OldSchoolBBall]

but did jordan win titles on those bad teams?

No, but he got as far as anyone could in those particular years with those particular teams.

No one expected Kobe to win a title with Smush and Kwame, either. We did, however, expect him not to disappear in a game 7. We did, however, expect him not to shoot 37% in the second halves of games and 31% in the 4th quarter of games the following playoffs vs. the same team. We did expect him to have statistically dominant seasons in an all-time sense, which he didn't.

You said that stats (not titles, but stats) are dependent on having great teammates. I showed you that this is not the case. You lose. Deal with it and learn to reason properly. Thanks in advance.

[OldSchoolBBall]

g kobe highlights are also better than jordans

LMAO :oldlol:

[lilyi]

No, but he got as far as anyone could in those particular years with those particular teams.

No one expected Kobe to win a title with Smush and Kwame, either. We did, however, expect him not to disappear in a game 7. We did, however, expect him not to shoot 37% in the second halves of games and 31% in the 4th quarter of games the following playoffs vs. the same team. We did expect him to have statistically dominant seasons in an all-time sense, which he didn't.

You said that stats (not titles, but stats) are dependent on having great teammates. I showed you that this is not the case. You lose. Deal with it and learn to reason properly. Thanks in advance.

Im saying it again becuz u totally ignored my last post when i said it.... IF kobe had gasol,bynum and the laker bench his whole career he would average around 30 ppg and win 6 titles..

ill argue with u later becuz im gonna go master-bait now

[OldSchoolBBall]

as an example i think if using MVP awards kareems are greater than MJs... why? because his were given to him by the players the men he played against, battled against and fought along side night after night over his career not a bunch of sportwriters who may not even have seen his games and are using the box score and stat sheet to choose...
kareems 6 mvps twice as valuble as mj's 6... see how that works... same amount of mvps completely different criterias for being awarded almost makes mj's look worthless when you compare the criteria for the award

Jordan actually has like 7 or 8 The Sporting News MVP awards, which are voted on by the players unlike the NBA MVP award.

If you think that Jordan would have actually had fewer than the 5 MVP awards he won had the award still been voted on by players, well, I don't know what to tell you other than that you're kidding yourself.

[OldSchoolBBall]

Im saying it again becuz u totally ignored my last post when i said it.... IF kobe had gasol,bynum and the laker bench his whole career he would average around 30 ppg and win 6 titles..

ill argue with u later becuz im gonna go master-bait now

And I'll ask you again how much that crystal ball of yours cost. :oldlol:

[lilyi]

And I'll ask you again how much that crystal ball of yours cost. :oldlol:
lets just say kobe had that, u kno he would have 6+ titles ;)

[gts]

Jordan actually has like 7 or 8 The Sporting News MVP awards, which are voted on by the players unlike the NBA MVP award.

If you think that Jordan would have actually had fewer than the 5 MVP awards he won had the award still been voted on by players, well, I don't know what to tell you other than that you're kidding yourself.

you're missing the point, i didn't say that, i just said that the criteria is different so using them as a basis of an argument is worthless... btw sporting news mvp's are awards given by a handful of players chosen by sporting news, like the ramsey awards it's a second rate award don' devalue mj that way...
the mvp's that kareem won were voted on by all the players, once again winning an MVP in kareems day was a much higher honor it was a peer award....

i'm not trying to devalue mj's mvp's so you can put your stat books down... i'm just pointing out that since the criteria is different it's not a valid argument for that reason plus the reason that when the writers took over the vote suddenly the mvp award became an award that valued team wins more than how the player was actually the most valuble player to his team...

[TmacsRockets]

http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/mvp_shares_career.html


Rank Player MVP Shares
1. Michael Jordan 8.138
2. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar* 6.203
3. Larry Bird* 5.693
4. Magic Johnson* 5.129
5. Bill Russell* 4.827
6. Shaquille O'Neal 4.380
7. Karl Malone 4.296
8. Wilt Chamberlain* 4.269
9. Tim Duncan 4.203
10. David Robinson 3.123
11. Moses Malone* 2.873
12. Kevin Garnett 2.752
13. Bob Pettit* 2.628
14. Hakeem Olajuwon* 2.611
15. Oscar Robertson* 2.479



http://www.basketball-reference.com/awards/tsn_mvp.html


According to Sporting News

MJ should have had 7 MVP's but really he only had 5.
Kareem should have had 6 MVP's and he did win 6
Magic should have had 1 MVP, but he got 3 of them
Wilt should have had 4 of them and he got 4 of them
Russell should have had 4 of them and he got 5 of them.
Bird should have had 2 of them and he got 3 of them
Moses Malone should have 3 of them and he got 3 of them
Shaq should have had 2 of them and he got 1 of them

[andgar923]

Kobe stans are the biggest IDIOTS to ever breath.

[Charles_Oakley]

btw sporting news mvp's are awards given by a handful of players chosen by sporting news, like the ramsey awards it's a second rate award don' devalue mj that way...


You got any source for that piece of information?



James, who finished a distant runner-up to Steve Nash for NBA Most Valuable Player, has been named the league's co-MVP along with the Phoenix guard by the Sporting News, which has been giving out the award since 1958.

The magazine sent a ballot to every team, instructing them to have their coach, general manager, assistant GM or player personnel director pick the league's top player for the 2005-06 season.

Of the 28 ballots cast, James and Nash each received eight first-place votes. Kobe Bryant of the Los Angeles Lakers and Dirk Nowitzki got six apiece.

http://www.sportingnews.com/yourturn/viewtopic.php?t=91662

[OldSchoolBBall]

You got any source for that piece of information?



http://www.sportingnews.com/yourturn/viewtopic.php?t=91662

There are articles from The Sporting News' own website which state that the Sporting News MVP was selected by players at least until 2001 (last saw it mentioned in an article about AI winning it in 2001; also saw it regarding Hakeem being selected in 1994). That may be the way they do it now, but it wasn't always so.

[The Magic Man]

Kobe stans are the biggest IDIOTS to ever breath.


That is funny on so many levels.

[Lodi Dodi]

The way I look at it, you either know that MJ was the GOAT or you go by any means to deny him that title. It's as simple as that. The man didn't leave any question unanswered. He played better in the tougher '80s than he did in the '90s. He was able to win 6 chips in a game where it's almost necessary to have a dominant big man to win. He was able to win more championships than Magic with way less talent. If anybody honestly believes that Jordan wouldn't be able to be as successful with the likes of Kareem, Worthy, Scott on his team there's really no convincing them.

I think that the fact that he never lost a playoff series where his team had home-court advantage is the one stat that speaks major volume. Another point that I looked at before that also says much is his play in the '80s and '00s. The man was able to put other-worldly numbers in the '80s and was able to be a top 15 player while being 38-40 years old in a league that's faster,stronger,better all while playing significantly less minutes than the other players.

Even though people argue that Jordan had great teammates, they fail to acknowledge how much better Jordan made them. The only player that was very good prior to playing with Jordan was Dennis Rodman and even when he played on the Bulls he wasn't nearly as good as he was in Detroit. People also mention Scottie Pippen. True that he was a very good player but a lot of that had to do with Jordan making him better. Pippen had to guard MJ in practice and that made him play much better. People might ask how would I know? When he was in college, Pippen was a player with raw talent in terms of body length who didn't have much skills. By playing with Jordan he was able to use his talent and develop his game finely. Let me ask another question if the talent was so good what did these players do after playing with the Bulls. Longley? BJ Armstrong? Horace Grant? Tony Kukoc? I find it very hard to believe that playing with Jordan didn't make these players great but they just on their own decided to play worse when on other teams.

I guess there's another accomplishment that MJ has. He dominated so much that people are going by any means to degrade his accomplishments. He's so good that he has Laker's fans believing magically for 10 years the league was weak despite the fact that the Nielsen ratings for finals has never been higher.

[Diesel J]

kobe highlights are also better than jordans .

:oldlol:

[ruslan]

If you're talking to me, let me speak to you calmly: Grow the F up a few years, study 10% as much history as some others have, get away from idol worshipping, acquire perspective, and then come back and talk. Until then, calling names gives you only authority on 8 and 10-year olds.

If you're not talking to me, again, grow up and realize that this isn't a chat room where there's no room for debating, arguing and posting long messages (although the person who brought this thread up hardly posted anything, he just copied-pasted the whole thing).


http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w248/TehAllistine/1195762045853.gif

Wtf is you talking about sir?

[gts]

You got any source for that piece of information?


thanks that's worse than i thought, players would have been better...
a handful of selcted people, even worse then players.... that means several of those things a year get filled out by some guys secretary or equpment manager because he doesn't have the time or care enough...

either way you have a much smaller sample size then when ballots are handed out to every player in the league as the used to be.. your post tells us exactly why the sporting news award is considered a second rate award compared to the nba MVP

thanks again

[OldSchoolBBall]

thanks that's worse than i thought, players would have been better...
a handful of selcted people, even worse then players.... that means several of those things a year get filled out by some guys secretary or equpment manager because he doesn't have the time or care enough...

either way you have a much smaller sample size then when ballots are handed out to every player in the league as the used to be.. your post tells us exactly why the sporting news award is considered a second rate award compared to the nba MVP

thanks again

The SN MVP was at least until 2001 voted on by players. Here are a couple of articles that mention it or strongly imply it:

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1208/is_21_225/ai_75089854

The relevant portion:


Allen Iverson has a message for his fellow NBA players: The appreciation is mutual.

"Those are the guys I play against, my competition," says Iverson, 25, chosen THE SPORTING NEWS NBA Most Valuable Player by his peers.

"For those guys to vote me MVP, I really feel like I accomplished a lot this year. Because those are the guys who made me compete like an MVP. I think that's the greatest honor in the world because it's coming from those guys."

Iverson led the league in scoring average (31.1) and steals per game (2.5) and tied for the lead in minutes per game (42) despite playing through an assortment of injuries. He was a runaway winner, with 112 votes. Chris Webber of the Kings (34 votes) and Shaquille O'Neal of the Lakers (22) were second and third.

Another for Hakeem's SN MVP in 1994:

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1208/is_n20_v217/ai_15236879

The relevant portion:


A year ago, the MVP award went to the Suns' Charles Barkley. "There is no justification that Barkley beat me for MVP," Olajuwon says. "This year, if I'm anywhere close, I think I should get it."

His fellow NBA players agreed and voted Olajuwon THE SPORTING NEWS NBA Player of the Year. "I don't like to campaign for myself," Olajuwon says. "But humility demands the truth." Olajuwon tallied 72 votes, with David Robinson (56) and Shaquille O'Neal (15) finishing second and third.

So it appears that at least until 2001, it was voted on by ~130-170 players. There are certainly other such articles (note that these links are to article finder sites, but the articles themselves are actually from The Sporting News; if you have access to a database with back issues, you can find the article itself since it displays the date). I honestly thought that this was common knowledge, since I recall reading as far back as the early 90's that the award was voted on by players, and I thought that was cool since it made it different from the NBA MVP award. Perhaps they changed it at some point post-2001. I dunno.

[Psileas]

Wtf is you talking about sir?

Eye are talking about baboons. Lovely bird, isn't they?

[Diesel J]

A lot of its points have been argued before by multiple posters in multiple boards (since it has been copied from one board to another). In RealGM, it had been so overused that it became an inside joke.

It was of course a nice effort, with a lot of points. That said, if we break the post down, not everything posted there is inarguable or absolute (for example, the statistic of win shares wasn't available before '74 and therefore can't cover the whole case). Some determined fan with a lot of time in his hands may raise a lot of good points for a couple of other players, as well.

Jordan is the best combination of team success and individual greatness. There are a few players that can rival him maybe in one level but not both at the same time (actually Kareem I'll say can). The thing that really puts Jordan on another level is/are his playoffs. Jordan is the best playoff performer and once he got on top, he never let anyone take the crown back from him.

[Riker]

Its funny how dumb these anti-Jordans sound but even more scary the fact that they actually mean what they type.

So, it doesnt matter that 99% of the sports media has MJ as the greatest ever but you have this need to be different and urge to go against the current so you come in with your pretentious bull**** ... but....I've just realized...your opinions mount up to diddly squat and no one cares about them so - use this thread as your little frustration haven and continue to make a basketball jerk out of yourself.

Internet typers >>>>>

Internet typers that think they're relevant in sports world >>>>>>>>
:bowdown:

[Psileas]

Jordan is the best combination of team success and individual greatness. There are a few players that can rival him maybe in one level but not both at the same time. The thing that really puts Jordan on another level is/are his playoffs. Jordan is the best playoff performer and once he got on top, he never let anyone take the crown back from him.

The combination thing is Jordan's strongest point. There can still be an argument though that the one part of domination (individual or team, depends on the philosophy) is more important than the other and, therefore, that the most "balanced" combination isn't nesessarily the better. So, if someone is at 90% at both, this doesn't nessesarily make him better than the one who's at 100% and 80%, respectively. I'm among the ones who favor individual dominance over team dominance, btw, especially as long as this individual dominance translates to an impact to the game itself.

As for the playoffs, the only thing that bothered me with Jordan there (apart from the fact, of course, that he didn't play for my team) is that, while what he did was already impressive, he missed the chance to do something that only the 60's Celtics did: Go for more than 3 in a row. He left in '93 (honestly, I still don't know 100% why. I've heard and read a lot of things, but I can't figure out the real reason he walked away while he hadn't still left his prime) and so did he in '98. Isn't a 4-peat a significant enough motive to move on, especially as long as you feel that you can move on?

[ruslan]

Eye are talking about baboons. Lovely bird, isn't they?

Go up on your roof and do a back flip onto ur driveway asap.

[Psileas]

Originally Posted by ruslan

(Something...)



Whatever, troll. You won't be spending any more valuable seconds from my life from now on.

[Gingereffic]

There are many undeserved MVPs (which are market tool) and Championships are determined by having the Better Team not by being the Best Player:rolleyes: :hammerhead: .

George Best was superior to Cryuff, Platini but the media does not mention it because he was from Wales and never played 1 singe World Cup. There are many overrated players in Team Sports that get hype because they played in Greater Teams with Greater Supporting Casts.

Just as Rolandhino overhyped (even having a Great Team in Barcelona and in his National Team) is alaways compared to Zidane and he is not even close:rolleyes: .

To me Greateness of a Player is PER AND EFF. Ofcourse this also is helped by having Greater Teamates.





Jordan is definetly the Greatest Shooting Guard Ever but I don`t know about Goat. Especially when you have Stern trying to promote and Markert Jordan the way he did in the 90s after even eliminating the handchecking and 3 second rule to make it easier for Off Guards and Perimeter Players that Penetrate to the Basket. Modeling everything for Jordan-like Players.

Jordan is the Greatest SG Ever but Greatest Player Ever that can be argued tehre are other many great players that where not SGs and did Great

Career EFF Leaders

http://www.basketballreference.com/leaders/leaderscareer.htm?stat=eff&lg=n

Player EFF Seasons

1 Wilt Chamberlain 41.50 14
2 Bill Russell 31.71 13
3 Oscar Robertson 31.61 14
4 Bob Pettit 31.11 11
5 Kareem Abdul-jabbar 30.93 20
6 Larry Bird 29.77 13
7 Elgin Baylor 29.74 14
8 Michael Jordan 29.19 15
9 Magic Johnson 29.10 13
10 Charles Barkley 28.16 16

11 Jerry Lucas 28.13 11
12 Shaquille O'neal 27.59 16
13 Hakeem Olajuwon 27.17 18
14 Kevin Garnett 27.13 13
15 Jerry West 27.10 14
16 David Robinson 26.98 14
17 Karl Malone 26.94 19
18 Tim Duncan 26.59 11
19 LeBron James 26.46 5
20 Walt Bellamy 26.29 14

21 Dave Cowens 26.23 11
22 Maurice Stokes 25.75 3
23 Bob Lanier 25.29 14
24 Bob McAdoo 24.47 14
25 Elton Brand 24.37 9
26 Dirk Nowitzki 24.25 10
27 Moses Malone 24.14 19
28 Willis Reed 24.06 10
29 Elvin Hayes 24.04 16
30 Rick Barry 23.98 10

31 Nate Thurmond 23.73 14
32 Chris Webber 23.72 15
33 Wes Unseld 23.70 13
34 Shawn Marion 23.52 9
35 Chris Paul 23.51 3
36 Billy Cunningham 23.51 9
37 Patrick Ewing 23.41 17
38 Julius Erving 23.35 11
39 Neil Johnston 23.23 8
40 Brad Daugherty 23.10 8

41 Artis Gilmore 22.99 12
42 Dwyane Wade 22.95 5
43 Amare Stoudemire 22.85 6
44 Walt Frazier 22.74 13
45 Gus Johnson 22.63 9
46 Adrian Dantley 22.60 15
47 Kobe Bryant 22.42 12
48 Clyde Drexler 22.42 15
49 Dwight Howard 22.26 4
50 Larry Nance 22.14 13

51 Bill Walton 22.13 10
52 Dolph Schayes 22.10 15
53 George Gervin 22.07 10
54 Dan Issel 21.91 9
55 Pau Gasol 21.91 7
56 Yao Ming 21.90 6
57 Jeff Ruland 21.71 8
58 George Mikan 21.58 7
59 Allen Iverson 21.56 12
60 Kevin Johnson 21.56 12
61 Clark Kellogg 21.55 5
62 Bailey Howell 21.53 12
63 Carlos Boozer 21.49 6
64 Paul Pierce 21.45 10
65 Marques Johnson 21.44 11
66 Chris Bosh 21.41 5
67 Dominique Wilkins 21.26 15
68 Paul Arizin 21.26 10
69 Connie Hawkins 21.25 7
70 Vince Carter 21.16 10
71 Tracy McGrady 21.10 11
72 Grant Hill 21.09 13
73 Pete Maravich 20.98 10
74 Jason Kidd 20.95 14
75 Spencer Haywood 20.84 12
76 Jack Sikma 20.83 14
77 John Stockton 20.80 19
78 John Havlicek 20.68 16
79 Kevin McHale 20.44 13
80 Alex English 20.40 15
81 George McGinnis 20.26 7
82 Isiah Thomas 20.22 13
83 Elmore Smith 20.20 8
84 Carmelo Anthony 20.16 5
85 Dave Debusschere 20.14 12
86 Bob Dandridge 20.03 13
87 Lamar Odom 19.94 9
88 Zelmo Beaty 19.92 8
89 Gilbert Arenas 19.91 7
90 Rudy Tomjanovich 19.77 11
91 Alonzo Mourning 19.77 15
92 Sidney Wicks 19.76 10
93 Bill Bridges 19.73 13
94 Happy Hairston 19.65 11
95 Dan Roundfield 19.60 11
96 Bernard King 19.60 14
97 Alex Groza 19.53 2
98 Scottie Pippen 19.50 17
99 Dave Bing 19.33 12
100 Nate Archibald 19.24 13

Career Leaders and Records for Player Efficiency Rating

http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/per_career.html

Rank Player PER

1. Michael Jordan 27.91
2. Shaquille O'Neal 27.14
3. David Robinson 26.18
4. Wilt Chamberlain* 26.13
5. Bob Pettit* 25.37
6. LeBron James 25.17
7. Tim Duncan 25.10
8. Neil Johnston* 24.67
9. Charles Barkley* 24.63
10. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar* 24.58

11. Magic Johnson* 24.11
12. Kevin Garnett 23.93
13. Dirk Nowitzki 23.92
14. Karl Malone 23.90
15. Hakeem Olajuwon* 23.59
16. Julius Erving* 23.57
17. Kobe Bryant 23.57
18. Larry Bird* 23.50
19. Tracy McGrady 23.38
20. Oscar Robertson* 23.18

21. Jerry West* 22.90
22. Elgin Baylor* 22.70
23. Elton Brand 22.69
24. Moses Malone* 22.00
25. Dolph Schayes* 21.94
26. John Stockton 21.83
27. Pau Gasol 21.70
28. Bob Lanier* 21.69
29. Clyde Lovellette* 21.67
30. Vince Carter 21.65

31. Dominique Wilkins* 21.56
32. Adrian Dantley* 21.51
33. Harry Gallatin* 21.45
34. Allen Iverson 21.42
35. Artis Gilmore 21.39
36. Dan Issel* 21.39
37. George Gervin* 21.38
38. Paul Pierce 21.37
39. Alonzo Mourning 21.24
40. Rick Barry* 21.10

41. Clyde Drexler* 21.07
42. Patrick Ewing* 21.01
43. Chris Webber 20.94
44. Grant Hill 20.88
45. Shawn Marion 20.80
46. Gilbert Arenas 20.74
47. John Drew 20.74
48. Bob McAdoo* 20.73
49. Kevin Johnson 20.70
50. George Yardley* 20.52

51. Ed Macauley* 20.35
52. Marques Johnson 20.11
53. Michael Redd 20.11
54. Steve Nash 20.07
55. George McGinnis 20.04
56. Billy Cunningham* 20.04
57. Mel Daniels 20.02
58. Kevin McHale* 20.02
59. Connie Hawkins* 19.94

60. Ray Allen 19.94
61. Larry Nance 19.92
62. David Thompson* 19.90
63. Alex English* 19.87
64. Walt Bellamy* 19.84
65. Cliff Hagan* 19.83
66. Andrei Kirilenko 19.82
67. Bob Cousy* 19.74
68. Terrell Brandon 19.69
69. Paul Arizin* 19.66
70. Mark Price 19.61

71. Sam Cassell 19.48
72. Paul Westphal 19.43
73. Zydrunas Ilgauskas 19.36
74. Robert Parish* 19.22
75. Bernard King 19.18
76. Walt Frazier* 19.12
77. Bailey Howell* 19.11
78. Spencer Haywood 19.11
79. Shawn Kemp 19.08
80. Walter Davis 19.07

81. Shareef Abdur-Rahim 19.03
82. Mark Aguirre 19.02
83. Larry Jones 19.02
84. Chauncey Billups 19.00
85. Stephon Marbury 18.92
86. Gary Payton 18.88
87. Bill Russell* 18.88
88. Jerry Lucas* 18.86
89. Brad Daugherty 18.85

90. World B. Free 18.78
91. Chris Mullin 18.78
92. Zelmo Beaty 18.77
93. Jermaine O'Neal 18.73
94. Jason Kidd 18.70
95. Sidney Moncrief 18.69
96. Sam Jones* 18.68
97. Scottie Pippen 18.63
98. Tim Hardaway 18.61
99. Vern Mikkelsen* 18.58
100. Willis Reed* 18.57

101. Gus Williams 18.51
102. Baron Davis 18.50
103. Antawn Jamison 18.46
104. Pete Maravich* 18.38
105. Donnie Freeman 18.38
106. Kiki Vandeweghe 18.37
107. Reggie Miller 18.36
108. Steve Francis 18.35
109. Larry Foust 18.34
110. Alvan Adams 18.32



I wonder how great MJ's Per and EFF would be if he didn't come back at 39 and 40. I am sure he would have been second in EFF and probably close to 30 ON PER.. THE GOAT IS MJ... Though you could make a case for Kareem who won titles in college as well as the pros and also won player of the year honors in both... :

[Gingereffic]

There are many undeserved MVPs (which are market tool) and Championships are determined by having the Better Team not by being the Best Player:rolleyes: :hammerhead: .

George Best was superior to Cryuff, Platini but the media does not mention it because he was from Wales and never played 1 singe World Cup. There are many overrated players in Team Sports that get hype because they played in Greater Teams with Greater Supporting Casts.

Just as Rolandhino overhyped (even having a Great Team in Barcelona and in his National Team) is alaways compared to Zidane and he is not even close:rolleyes: .

To me Greateness of a Player is PER AND EFF. Ofcourse this also is helped by having Greater Teamates.





Jordan is definetly the Greatest Shooting Guard Ever but I don`t know about Goat. Especially when you have Stern trying to promote and Markert Jordan the way he did in the 90s after even eliminating the handchecking and 3 second rule to make it easier for Off Guards and Perimeter Players that Penetrate to the Basket. Modeling everything for Jordan-like Players.

Jordan is the Greatest SG Ever but Greatest Player Ever that can be argued tehre are other many great players that where not SGs and did Great

Career EFF Leaders

http://www.basketballreference.com/leaders/leaderscareer.htm?stat=eff&lg=n

Player EFF Seasons

1 Wilt Chamberlain 41.50 14
2 Bill Russell 31.71 13
3 Oscar Robertson 31.61 14
4 Bob Pettit 31.11 11
5 Kareem Abdul-jabbar 30.93 20
6 Larry Bird 29.77 13
7 Elgin Baylor 29.74 14
8 Michael Jordan 29.19 15
9 Magic Johnson 29.10 13
10 Charles Barkley 28.16 16

11 Jerry Lucas 28.13 11
12 Shaquille O'neal 27.59 16
13 Hakeem Olajuwon 27.17 18
14 Kevin Garnett 27.13 13
15 Jerry West 27.10 14
16 David Robinson 26.98 14
17 Karl Malone 26.94 19
18 Tim Duncan 26.59 11
19 LeBron James 26.46 5
20 Walt Bellamy 26.29 14

21 Dave Cowens 26.23 11
22 Maurice Stokes 25.75 3
23 Bob Lanier 25.29 14
24 Bob McAdoo 24.47 14
25 Elton Brand 24.37 9
26 Dirk Nowitzki 24.25 10
27 Moses Malone 24.14 19
28 Willis Reed 24.06 10
29 Elvin Hayes 24.04 16
30 Rick Barry 23.98 10

31 Nate Thurmond 23.73 14
32 Chris Webber 23.72 15
33 Wes Unseld 23.70 13
34 Shawn Marion 23.52 9
35 Chris Paul 23.51 3
36 Billy Cunningham 23.51 9
37 Patrick Ewing 23.41 17
38 Julius Erving 23.35 11
39 Neil Johnston 23.23 8
40 Brad Daugherty 23.10 8

41 Artis Gilmore 22.99 12
42 Dwyane Wade 22.95 5
43 Amare Stoudemire 22.85 6
44 Walt Frazier 22.74 13
45 Gus Johnson 22.63 9
46 Adrian Dantley 22.60 15
47 Kobe Bryant 22.42 12
48 Clyde Drexler 22.42 15
49 Dwight Howard 22.26 4
50 Larry Nance 22.14 13

51 Bill Walton 22.13 10
52 Dolph Schayes 22.10 15
53 George Gervin 22.07 10
54 Dan Issel 21.91 9
55 Pau Gasol 21.91 7
56 Yao Ming 21.90 6
57 Jeff Ruland 21.71 8
58 George Mikan 21.58 7
59 Allen Iverson 21.56 12
60 Kevin Johnson 21.56 12
61 Clark Kellogg 21.55 5
62 Bailey Howell 21.53 12
63 Carlos Boozer 21.49 6
64 Paul Pierce 21.45 10
65 Marques Johnson 21.44 11
66 Chris Bosh 21.41 5
67 Dominique Wilkins 21.26 15
68 Paul Arizin 21.26 10
69 Connie Hawkins 21.25 7
70 Vince Carter 21.16 10
71 Tracy McGrady 21.10 11
72 Grant Hill 21.09 13
73 Pete Maravich 20.98 10
74 Jason Kidd 20.95 14
75 Spencer Haywood 20.84 12
76 Jack Sikma 20.83 14
77 John Stockton 20.80 19
78 John Havlicek 20.68 16
79 Kevin McHale 20.44 13
80 Alex English 20.40 15
81 George McGinnis 20.26 7
82 Isiah Thomas 20.22 13
83 Elmore Smith 20.20 8
84 Carmelo Anthony 20.16 5
85 Dave Debusschere 20.14 12
86 Bob Dandridge 20.03 13
87 Lamar Odom 19.94 9
88 Zelmo Beaty 19.92 8
89 Gilbert Arenas 19.91 7
90 Rudy Tomjanovich 19.77 11
91 Alonzo Mourning 19.77 15
92 Sidney Wicks 19.76 10
93 Bill Bridges 19.73 13
94 Happy Hairston 19.65 11
95 Dan Roundfield 19.60 11
96 Bernard King 19.60 14
97 Alex Groza 19.53 2
98 Scottie Pippen 19.50 17
99 Dave Bing 19.33 12
100 Nate Archibald 19.24 13

Career Leaders and Records for Player Efficiency Rating

http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/per_career.html

Rank Player PER

1. Michael Jordan 27.91
2. Shaquille O'Neal 27.14
3. David Robinson 26.18
4. Wilt Chamberlain* 26.13
5. Bob Pettit* 25.37
6. LeBron James 25.17
7. Tim Duncan 25.10
8. Neil Johnston* 24.67
9. Charles Barkley* 24.63
10. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar* 24.58

11. Magic Johnson* 24.11
12. Kevin Garnett 23.93
13. Dirk Nowitzki 23.92
14. Karl Malone 23.90
15. Hakeem Olajuwon* 23.59
16. Julius Erving* 23.57
17. Kobe Bryant 23.57
18. Larry Bird* 23.50
19. Tracy McGrady 23.38
20. Oscar Robertson* 23.18

21. Jerry West* 22.90
22. Elgin Baylor* 22.70
23. Elton Brand 22.69
24. Moses Malone* 22.00
25. Dolph Schayes* 21.94
26. John Stockton 21.83
27. Pau Gasol 21.70
28. Bob Lanier* 21.69
29. Clyde Lovellette* 21.67
30. Vince Carter 21.65

31. Dominique Wilkins* 21.56
32. Adrian Dantley* 21.51
33. Harry Gallatin* 21.45
34. Allen Iverson 21.42
35. Artis Gilmore 21.39
36. Dan Issel* 21.39
37. George Gervin* 21.38
38. Paul Pierce 21.37
39. Alonzo Mourning 21.24
40. Rick Barry* 21.10

41. Clyde Drexler* 21.07
42. Patrick Ewing* 21.01
43. Chris Webber 20.94
44. Grant Hill 20.88
45. Shawn Marion 20.80
46. Gilbert Arenas 20.74
47. John Drew 20.74
48. Bob McAdoo* 20.73
49. Kevin Johnson 20.70
50. George Yardley* 20.52

51. Ed Macauley* 20.35
52. Marques Johnson 20.11
53. Michael Redd 20.11
54. Steve Nash 20.07
55. George McGinnis 20.04
56. Billy Cunningham* 20.04
57. Mel Daniels 20.02
58. Kevin McHale* 20.02
59. Connie Hawkins* 19.94

60. Ray Allen 19.94
61. Larry Nance 19.92
62. David Thompson* 19.90
63. Alex English* 19.87
64. Walt Bellamy* 19.84
65. Cliff Hagan* 19.83
66. Andrei Kirilenko 19.82
67. Bob Cousy* 19.74
68. Terrell Brandon 19.69
69. Paul Arizin* 19.66
70. Mark Price 19.61

71. Sam Cassell 19.48
72. Paul Westphal 19.43
73. Zydrunas Ilgauskas 19.36
74. Robert Parish* 19.22
75. Bernard King 19.18
76. Walt Frazier* 19.12
77. Bailey Howell* 19.11
78. Spencer Haywood 19.11
79. Shawn Kemp 19.08
80. Walter Davis 19.07

81. Shareef Abdur-Rahim 19.03
82. Mark Aguirre 19.02
83. Larry Jones 19.02
84. Chauncey Billups 19.00
85. Stephon Marbury 18.92
86. Gary Payton 18.88
87. Bill Russell* 18.88
88. Jerry Lucas* 18.86
89. Brad Daugherty 18.85

90. World B. Free 18.78
91. Chris Mullin 18.78
92. Zelmo Beaty 18.77
93. Jermaine O'Neal 18.73
94. Jason Kidd 18.70
95. Sidney Moncrief 18.69
96. Sam Jones* 18.68
97. Scottie Pippen 18.63
98. Tim Hardaway 18.61
99. Vern Mikkelsen* 18.58
100. Willis Reed* 18.57

101. Gus Williams 18.51
102. Baron Davis 18.50
103. Antawn Jamison 18.46
104. Pete Maravich* 18.38
105. Donnie Freeman 18.38
106. Kiki Vandeweghe 18.37
107. Reggie Miller 18.36
108. Steve Francis 18.35
109. Larry Foust 18.34
110. Alvan Adams 18.32



I wonder how great MJ's Per and EFF would be if he didn't come back at 39 and 40. I am sure he would have been second in EFF and probably close to 30 ON PER.. THE GOAT IS MJ... Though you could make a case for Kareem who won titles in college as well as the pros and also won player of the year honors in both... :

[Diesel J]

The combination thing is Jordan's strongest point. There can still be an argument though that the one part of domination (individual or team, depends on the philosophy) is more important than the other and, therefore, that the most "balanced" combination isn't nesessarily the better. So, if someone is at 90% at both, this doesn't nessesarily make him better than the one who's at 100% and 80%, respectively. I'm among the ones who favor individual dominance over team dominance, btw, especially as long as this individual dominance translates to an impact to the game itself.

Combination of individual greatness and team success is the best way to go because it's show how one can dominate individually and win at the same time. Kevin Garnett (pre Celtics) is arguably better than Tim Duncan when it comes individual greatness but Tim Duncan's stats weren't that far off plus he had better team success + monster postseasons and because of this, Tim Duncan is ranked higher than KG all time.

[Da_Realist]

I wonder how great MJ's Per and EFF would be if he didn't come back at 39 and 40. I am sure he would have been second in EFF and probably close to 30 ON PER.. THE GOAT IS MJ... Though you could make a case for Kareem who won titles in college as well as the pros and also won player of the year honors in both... :

Or even if he played the full 94 and 95 seasons while he was still in his prime. I would happily trade in the 2002 and 2003 seasons for 1994 and 1995. A guard playing as well as MJ did during his mid-to-late 30's is unheard of. He played 1072 games!

Not to mention the idea of using stats as the sole way of determining the NBA's best player is ridiculous. I don't even know what EFF and PER is, to be honest with you and I can still make a convincing argument for a few players.

[Da_Realist]

Jordan is definetly the Greatest Shooting Guard Ever but I don`t know about Goat. Especially when you have Stern trying to promote and Markert Jordan the way he did in the 90s after even eliminating the handchecking and 3 second rule to make it easier for Off Guards and Perimeter Players that Penetrate to the Basket. Modeling everything for Jordan-like Players.

Let it go. First of all, Jordan played in almost half the 80's and was a more physically dominant player then than he ever was in the 90's. Secondly, Jordan really was that good. If anything, Jordan had it harder in the 90's because he had to deal with more specialized and physical defenses than many other players.

Detroit ushered in a new focus on defense that teams carried into the 90's. Defense -- real defense -- is the great neutralizer. It evens things out. It makes marginal players more productive by allowing more holding and grabbing and it decreases the productivity of elite players. Add in the fact that players were stronger due to increased weight training (http://vault.sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1066665/index.htm) and it's ridiculous to suggest Jordan somehow had it easier. The fact that Jordan still dominated with people hanging off his arm and barring him from receiving the ball is a credit to his greatness.

[Psileas]

Combination of individual greatness and team success is the best way to go because it's show how one can dominate individually and win at the same time. Kevin Garnett (pre Celtics) is arguably better than Tim Duncan when it comes individual greatness but Tim Duncan's stats weren't that far off plus he had better team success + monster postseasons and because of this, Tim Duncan is ranked higher than KG all time.

Yes, but we're talking about high levels of both. No-one would consider Garnett's team success anywhere close to high. Up to the point of getting traded, he was arguably the active superstar with the second least playoff success, after only TMac. Duncan's and Gernett's playoff success was too big to give KG the upper hand. He still was getting more love in comparisons against Duncan than a guy like Wilt or Kareem gets against Jordan, although their playoff success was vastly bigger than Minny's Garnett's, while Jordan's playoff success, while higher than Duncan's, wasn't as much more dominant as Wilt's/Kareem's compared to Garnett's.


I wonder how great MJ's Per and EFF would be if he didn't come back at 39 and 40. I am sure he would have been second in EFF and probably close to 30 ON PER.. THE GOAT IS MJ... Though you could make a case for Kareem who won titles in college as well as the pros and also won player of the year honors in both... :

If I calculated correctly, his PER minus Wizards would be 29.0.
I do think that, combining overall careers (H.S-NCAA-NBA) Kareem was the GOAT. He was the only player to be top-5 ever in all 3 categories.

[snipes12]

im just to damn lazy to think of anyone who is better than him so il agree with this thread

[bruceblitz]

I am going to still this post from a knowledgeable poster on two other sites. This is how he explains why MJ is the GOAT.

Well let's look at some of the candidates first.

1. MJ (6 Titles, 5 League MVP's, 6 Finals MVP's, Career Leader in PPG Regular Season and Playoffs, and Most Points in Playoffs, etc)
2. Magic (5 Titles, 3 League MVP's, 3 Finals MVP's, # of APG titles)
3. Kareem (6 Titles, 6 League MVP's, 3 Finals MVP's, Career Points leader)
4. Russell (11 Titles, 5 League MVP's)
5. Wilt (2 Titles, 4 League MVP's, 1 Finals MVP)

Close
6. Bird (3 Titles, 3 League MVP's, 2 Finals MVP's)
7. Shaq (4 Titles, 1 League MVP's, 3 Finals MVP's)

So if we break it down, let's go by the following:


League MVP's
6 - Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
5 - Michael Jordan
5 - Bill Russell
4 - Wilt Chamberlain
3 - Larry Bird
3 - Magic Johnson
3 - Moses Malone

Finals MVP's
6 - Michael Jordan
3 - Magic Johnson
3 - Shaquille O'neal
3 - Tim Duncan
2 - Kareem
2- Bird
1 - Wilt
1 - Moses Malone

Championships
11 - Bill Russell
6 - Michael Jordan
6 - Kareem
5 - Magic
4 - Shaq
4 - Duncan
2 - Wilt

Career Stats and Records - Regular Season
APG Leader: Magic
RPG Leader: Wilt
All-time Career Points Leader: Kareem
All-time PPG Leader: M.Jordan

Playoff Stats and Records - Playoffs
Total Assists Leader: Magic Johnson
APG Leader Playoffs: Magic Johnson
Total Rebounds Leader: Bill Russell
RPG Leader Playoffs: Bill Russell
All-time Career Points Leader Playoffs: M.Jordan
All-time PPG Leader Playoffs: M.Jordan

So currently the only players that fit the bill in each category are both MJ's.

Now if you add the fact of Defensive Teams that would eliminate Magic. However, I won't do that to him because he is my 2nd favorite player.

Now if you want you can add in the TSN MVP award as well

TSN MVP
7 - Michael Jordan
6 - Kareem
4 - Wilt
4 - Russell
2 - Moses
2 - Shaq
1 - Hakeem
1 - Magic

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/basketball/nba/2003-02-06-dupree-team_x.htm

http://motownsportsrevival.blogspot.com/2006/12/top-50-basketball-players-of-all-time.html

So Kareem has the most league MVP's, MJ the most Finals MVP's, and Russell the most titles.

MJ is near the top in all of them though as is Russell, but Russell doesn't have the numbers to support him.

Also consider

Kareem won League MVP and Finals MVP in 1971
Magic won League MVP and Finals MVP in 1987
MJ won League MVP and Finals MVP in 1991, 1992, 1996 and 1998.


Now all of that is looking at accolades, so how do we go even further in deciding who is the best as we can't just use titles alone. Well what did they did yearly and in the playoffs?




http://www.answers.com/topic/nba-records

The Playoffs is where you make your name and where greatness is defined. But MJ was more consistent and holds records as well such as:

Highest PPG Average: 30.12
Most seasons leading league in Points: 11
Most scoring titles: 10
Highest PER Efficiency: 27.91

Also, MJ is no doubt the greatest playoff performer and IMO he was the greatest Road Player Ever. Most of his greatest feats happened on the road.

As far as the playoffs go, here are a few things that stuck out in my mind:

Playoffs
Most Points Per Game (min. 25 games)
33.4 by Michael Jordan (179 games)

Most Points in a Game
63 by Michael Jordan

Most 50 Point Games
8 by Michael Jordan

Most 40 Point Games
38 by Michael Jordan

Most 30 Point Games
109 by Michael Jordan

Most 20 Point Games
174 by Michael Jordan (he played 179 playoff games and scored under 20 only 5 times)

These players all lost these series with Homecourt advantage which means they were the favorite. If someone was injured like a main star then that factors in, but if not that doesn't factor in the discussion.



MJ never lost a series with homecourt advantage/better seed/better record. What does that mean, well he was the only superstar to never lose a series in which his team was considered the favorite and better team. All the other legends lost series.

Also consider the following:

Is 18% a good percentage?

In what you might ask... 18% winning percentage...

Pretty awful right?

Well in 60 years of NBA Basketball only 11 league leading scorers have won a championship... That's 18.333333%...

Their names are: Shaquille O'Neal, Michael Jordan, Kareem Abdul Jabbar, George Mikan and some guy named Joe Fulks...

Most of these players were dominant Centers, who did more than just score.

That means that non center players who led the league in scoring have won in an amazing 10% of the time.. and only one player did it... Michael Jordan. In one era. That phenomenon of nature who won six...

10% winning historically!!! 10 PERCENT!!!

I will argue that the odds are against a high scoring guard from winning it all.

Here are the playoff top games.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/basketball/nba/2002/playoffs/top_individual_points/

Top Playoff Single-Game Scoring Performances
Player Team Opponent Total Date
Michael Jordan Chicago at Boston 63 April 20, 1986
Elgin Baylor L.A. Lakers at Boston 61 April 14, 1962
Wilt Chamberlain Philadelphia Syracuse 56 March 22, 1962
Michael Jordan Chicago at Miami 56 April 29, 1992
Charles Barkley Phoenix at Golden State 56 May 4, 1994
Michael Jordan Chicago Cleveland 55 May 1, 1988
Michael Jordan Chicago Phoenix 55 June 16, 1993
Michael Jordan Chicago Washington 55 April 27, 1997
John Havlicek Boston Atlanta 54 April 1, 1973
Michael Jordan Chicago New York 54 May 31, 1993
Allen Iverson Philadelphia Toronto 54 May 9, 2001
Wilt Chamberlain Philadelphia Syracuse 53 March 14, 1960
Jerry West L.A. Lakers Boston 53 April 23, 1969
Jerry West L.A. Lakers Baltimore 52 April 5, 1965
Allen Iverson Philadelphia Toronto 52 May 16, 2001
Sam Jones Boston at New York 51 March 28, 1967
Eric Floyd Golden State L.A. Lakers 51 May 10, 1987
Bob Cousy Boston Syracuse 50* March 21, 1953
Bob Petit St. Louis Boston 50 April 12, 1958
Wilt Chamberlain Philadelphia at Boston 50 March 22, 1950
Wilt Chamberlain San Francisco St. Louis 50 April 10, 1964
Billy Cunningham Philadelphia Milwaukee 50 April 1, 1970
Bob McAdoo Buffalo Washington 50 April 18, 1975
Dominique Wilkins Atlanta Detroit 50 April 19, 1986
Michael Jordan Chicago Cleveland 50 April 28, 1988
Michael Jordan Chicago Cleveland 50^ May 5, 1989
Karl Malone Utah Seattle 50 April 22, 2000
Vince Carter Toronto Philadelphia 50 May 11, 2001
*4 overtimes
^overtime

This is courtesy of NBA on NBC here:

NBA PLAYOFFS HIGH SCORING GAME BY YEAR
1946-47 - 37 Joe Fulks, PHW vs CHI at PHW 16Apr47
1947-48 - 34 Connie Simmons, BLT vs NYK at BLT 27Mar48
1948-49 - 42 George Mikan, MPL vs WSC 4Apr49 @ MPL
1949-50 - 40 George Mikan, MPL vs SYR at MPL 23Apr50
1950-51 - 41 George Mikan, MPL vs IDS at MPL 21Mar51
1951-52 - 47 George Mikan, MPL at ROC 29Mar52
1952-53 - 50 Bob Cousy, BOS vs SYR at BOS 21Mar53
1953-54 - 36 Dolph Schayes, SYR at NYK 21Mar54
1954-55 - 32 Bill Sharman, BOS at SYR 24Mar55
1955-56 - 43 Neil Johnson, PHW at SYR 25Mar56
1956-57 - 42 Bob Leonard, MPL vs STL at MPL 25Mar57
1957-58 - 50 Bob Pettit, STL vs BOS at STL 12Apr58
1958-59 - 40 Cliff Hagan, STL vs MPL at STL 21Mar59
1959-60 - 53 Wilt Chamberlain, PHW vs SYR at PHW 14Mar60
1960-61 - 47 Elgin Baylor, LAL at DET 18Mar61
............... 47 Elgin Baylor, LAL at STL 27Mar61
1961-62 - 61 Elgin Baylor, LAL at BOS 14Apr62
1962-63 - 47 Sam Jones, BOS vs CIN at BOS 10Apr63
1963-64 - 50 Wilt Chamberlain, SFW vs STL at SFW 10Apr64
1964-65 - 52 Jerry West, LAL vs BAL at LAL 3Apr65
1965-66 - 46 Wilt Chamberlain, PHI vs BOS at PHI 12Apr66
1966-67 - 55 Rick Barry, SFW vs PHI at SFW 18Apr67
1967-68 - 46 Zelmo Beaty, STL vs SFW 23Mar68 @ STL
1968-69 - 53 Jerry West, LAL vs BOS at LAL 23Apr69
1969-70 - 50 Billy Cunningham, PHI vs MIL at PHI 1Apr70
1970-71 - 39 Gail Goodrich, LAL at CHI 28Mar71
1971-72 - 43 John Havlicek BOS at ATL 31Mar72
1972-73 - 54 John Havlicek, BOS vs ATL at BOS 1Apr73
1973-74 - 44 Bob McAdoo, BUF vs BOS 6Apr74 at BUF
............... 44 Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, MIL at CHI 18Apr74
1974-75 - 50 Bob McAdoo, BUF vs WAS at BUF 18Apr75
1975-76 - 45 Fred Brown, SEA vs PHO at SEA 15Apr76
1976-77 - 45 Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, LAL vs GSW at LAL 29Apr77
1977-78 - 46 George Gervin, SAN vs WAS at SAN 18Apr78
1978-79 - 42 George Gervin, SAN vs WAS at SAN 11May79
............... 42 George Gervin, SAN at WAS 18May79
1979-80 - 44 George Gervin, SAN vs HOU at SAN 4Apr80
1980-81 - 42 Calvin Murphy, HOU at SAN 17Apr81
............... 42 Moses Malone, HOU vs KCK at HOU 26Apr81
1981-82 - 39 George Gervin, SAN vs LAL at SAN 14May82
............... 39 Andrew Toney, PHI vs BOS at PHI 16May82
1982-83 - 42 Alex English, DEN vs PHO at PHO 24Apr83
............... 42 George Gervin, SAN at DEN 26Apr83
1983-84 - 46 Bernard King, NYK at DET 19Apr84
............... 46 Bernard King, NYK vs DET at NYK 22Apr84
1984-85 - 43 Rolando Blackman, DAL vs POR at DAL 18Apr85
............... 43 Larry Bird, BOS vs DET at BOS 8May85
1985-86 - 63 Michael Jordan, CHI at BOS 20Apr86
1986-87 - 51 Sleepy Floyd, GSW vs LAL at GSW 10May87
1987-88 - 55 Michael Jordan, CHI vs CLE at CHI 1May88
1988-89 - 50 Michael Jordan, CHI vs CLE at CHI 5May89
1989-90 - 49 Michael Jordan, CHI at PHI 11May90
1990-91 - 46 Michael Jordan, CHI at PHI 10May91
1991-92 - 56 Michael Jordan, CHI at MIA 29Apr92
1992-93 - 55 Michael Jordan, CHI vs PHO at CHI 16Jun93
1993-94 - 56 Charles Barkley, PHO at GSW 4May94
1994-95 - 48 Michael Jordan, CHI at CHA 28Apr95
1995-96 - 46 Michael Jordan, CHI at NYK 11May96
1996-97 - 55 Michael Jordan, CHI vs WAS at CHI 27Apr97
1997-98 - 45 Michael Jordan, CHI at UTA 14Jun98
1998-99 - 37 Tim Duncan, SAN at LAL 22May99
............... 37 Scottie Pippen, HOU vs LAL at HOU 13May99
............... 37 Shaquille O'Neal, LAL vs HOU at HOU 15May99
............... 37 Allen Iverson, PHI vs ORL at PHI 15May99
1999-00 - 50 Karl Malone, UTA vs SEA at UTA 22Apr00
-----
ALL-TIME HIGHEST SCORING AVERAGES, NBA PLAYOFFS
Jerry West, LAL vs BAL, 1965..... 46.3
Michael Jordan, CHI vs CLE, 1988..... 45.2
Michael Jordan, CHI vs MIA, 1992..... 45.0

ALL-TIME HIGHEST SCORING AVERAGES, NBA CHAMPIONSHIP SERIES/NBA FINALS
Michael Jordan, CHI vs PHO, 1993..... 41.0
Rick Barry, SFW vs PHI, 1965..... 40.8
Elgin Baylor, LAL vs BOS, 1962..... 40.6


Also MJ has 6 playoffs series where he averaged at least 40 ppg.

:applause: :applause: :applause:
fantastic!

[SkyR#1fanCapCou]

titles are overrated... mj was on a stacked team so it was easy to get those stats and titles. lets see if he had smush parker and kwame brown as his best teammates....

How about Shaq, Malone and The Glove:D

[Round Mound]

With Pippen as the Point Forward with the ideal amount of touches...yeah with him MJ is Goat

[OldSchoolBBall]

With Pippen as the Point Forward with the ideal amount of touches...yeah with him MJ is Goat

lmao @ this clown. :oldlol:

[blablabla]

jordans opponents

http://www.edinphoto.org.uk/0_g/0_groups_and_outings_canongate_boys_club_basketbal l_team_1950s.jpg
http://www.visitgreenvillein.com/historyphotos/1950%27sBasketballTeam.jpg

this were kobes

http://www.asternwarning.com/images/stories/ben%20wallace%20rebound.jpg
http://www2.thecelebrityworkout.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/01/lebron-muscle.jpg
http://www.nba.com/media/bulls/gordon6_050809.jpg
http://boston.sportsthenandnow.com/wp/wp-content/uploads/2009/10/Allen-shooting-256x300.jpg
http://www.1physiotherapy.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/12/Dwight-Howard.jpg
http://www.asternwarning.com/images/stories/zo%20muscle.jpg
http://i.a.cnn.net/si/2007/writers/ian_thomsen/09/14/stoudemire.oden/p1_amare.jpg


/thread

[jlauber]

I don't believe that MJ is the clear-cut GOAT. While I don't necessarily agree with the reasoning, there have been three players who seem to show up in most intelligent discussions on the topic. MJ, with his 6 titles, 5 MVPs, 6 Finals MVPs, statistical titles, and Finals stats. Kareem with his longevity, his domination of the entire decade of the 70's (and a top-5 player for much of the 80's), his 6 MVPs, 5 rings, 2 Finals MVPs (and probably should have been three), a few statistical titles, and generally exceptional play in the post-season. And finally, Russell, with his staggering team success. 11 rings in 13 years, 27 playoff series wins in 29 series, eight titles in a row, probably 8-9 Finals MVPs had the award existed his entire career, a few rebounding titles, and arguably the greatest defensive player of all-time. And before someone mentions his HOF-laden teams, yes, he played alongside loaded rosters, but still, Boston never won a title before he arrived, and they fell to 34-48 after he retired. And, several of those "HOFers" would not have made the HOF without him. Furthermore, and once again while I didn't necessarily agree with them, Russell was considered the best player of his era, and in 1980, a panel of basketball sportswriters voted him as the GOAT.

After those three, there are another handful of players who have legitimate arguments, as well. Bird, by the mid-to-late 80's, and before MJ arrived, was being hailed as the GOAT by many.

And with all due respect to Kareem, who was the best player for the entire decade of the 70's, the Lakers never sniffed a title before Magic arrived. And even after Kareem retired, Magic still led them to 63-19 and 58-24 records. And when Magic retired, the Lakers immediately plummetted to 43-39 and 39-43 records. Aside from Russell, Magic was perhaps the greatest "winner" in NBA history. His WORST team record, in 12 seasons, was 54-28. NINE Finals in 12 years, and five rings. Not only that, but a few points, or plays, or had he not been injured, and Magic was very close to three more titles. MJ played on six title teams, but he also languished on five losing teams, as well.

Duncan has been a 50+ "winner" every season in his career. He has taken different rosters to four titles. Not only that, but aside from 98-99, those rosters were probably not the best in the league in any of those title years.

As great as MJ was in the post-season, IMHO, Shaq's "three-peat", particularly in the Finals, was the most dominant post-seasons in NBA history (with perhaps Wilt's '67 season.) Opposing teams were so helpless in trying to stop him, that they basically "waved the white towel", and just resorted to fouling him. He even abused DPOY Motumbo, (as well as outrebounding and outblocking him.)

Finally, as great as Russell was, Chamberlain not only outplayed him in the vast majority of their H2H battles, he downright crushed him in about one-third of them. Had Russell not played in the NBA in the 60's, and Wilt may very well have won 7-8 rings in his career. In fact, in four of their H2H playoff series, Wilt's teams lost those four series, in game seven's, by a combined nine points. Throw in a questionable game five in the '70 Finals, and Wilt was an eye-lash away from winning five more titles. Furthermore, in his 29 post-season series, he probably outplayed his opposing center in ALL of them, and the majority of those were HOF centers. And, of course, there is the Record Book, in which his name is plastered on every page.

MJ was not infallable, either. I already mentioned his FIVE losing seasons. His teams were also 1-9 in his first ten playoff games. He had three very poor shooting Finals in his last three Finals (.455, .427, and .415.) And while those Bulls teams of the 90's may not have been HOF-laden, they were probably the most loaded teams of that era. One only needs to look at the '94 Bulls, who basically replaced MJ with a 10 ppg scorer in Toni Kukoc, and STILL went 55-27. And that team lost a controversial game seven to a Knick team, that lost a close game seven to the eventual champion Rockets.

I don't have a problem with those that claim MJ as the GOAT. BUT, he was not the ONLY player that is in the discussion. There are several that have legitimate arguments.

[SkyR#1fanCapCou]

I don't believe that MJ is the clear-cut GOAT. While I don't necessarily agree with the reasoning, there have been three players who seem to show up in most intelligent discussions on the topic. MJ, with his 6 titles, 5 MVPs, 6 Finals MVPs, statistical titles, and Finals stats. Kareem with his longevity, his domination of the entire decade of the 70's (and a top-5 player for much of the 80's), his 6 MVPs, 5 rings, 2 Finals MVPs (and probably should have been three), a few statistical titles, and generally exceptional play in the post-season. And finally, Russell, with his staggering team success. 11 rings in 13 years, 27 playoff series wins in 29 series, eight titles in a row, probably 8-9 Finals MVPs had the award existed his entire career, a few rebounding titles, and arguably the greatest defensive player of all-time. And before someone mentions his HOF-laden teams, yes, he played alongside loaded rosters, but still, Boston never won a title before he arrived, and they fell to 34-48 after he retired. And, several of those "HOFers" would not have made the HOF without him. Furthermore, and once again while I didn't necessarily agree with them, Russell was considered the best player of his era, and in 1980, a panel of basketball sportswriters voted him as the GOAT.

After those three, there are another handful of players who have legitimate arguments, as well. Bird, by the mid-to-late 80's, and before MJ arrived, was being hailed as the GOAT by many.

And with all due respect to Kareem, who was the best player for the entire decade of the 70's, the Lakers never sniffed a title before Magic arrived. And even after Kareem retired, Magic still led them to 63-19 and 58-24 records. And when Magic retired, the Lakers immediately plummetted to 43-39 and 39-43 records. Aside from Russell, Magic was perhaps the greatest "winner" in NBA history. His WORST team record, in 12 seasons, was 54-28. NINE Finals in 12 years, and five rings. Not only that, but a few points, or plays, or had he not been injured, and Magic was very close to three more titles. MJ played on six title teams, but he also languished on five losing teams, as well.

Duncan has been a 50+ "winner" every season in his career. He has taken different rosters to four titles. Not only that, but aside from 98-99, those rosters were probably not the best in the league in any of those title years.

As great as MJ was in the post-season, IMHO, Shaq's "three-peat", particularly in the Finals, was the most dominant post-seasons in NBA history (with perhaps Wilt's '67 season.) Opposing teams were so helpless in trying to stop him, that they basically "waved the white towel", and just resorted to fouling him. He even abused DPOY Motumbo, (as well as outrebounding and outblocking him.)

Finally, as great as Russell was, Chamberlain not only outplayed him in the vast majority of their H2H battles, he downright crushed him in about one-third of them. Had Russell not played in the NBA in the 60's, and Wilt may very well have won 7-8 rings in his career. In fact, in four of their H2H playoff series, Wilt's teams lost those four series, in game seven's, by a combined nine points. Throw in a questionable game five in the '70 Finals, and Wilt was an eye-lash away from winning five more titles. Furthermore, in his 29 post-season series, he probably outplayed his opposing center in ALL of them, and the majority of those were HOF centers. And, of course, there is the Record Book, in which his name is plastered on every page.

MJ was not infallable, either. I already mentioned his FIVE losing seasons. His teams were also 1-9 in his first ten playoff games. He had three very poor shooting Finals in his last three Finals (.455, .427, and .415.) And while those Bulls teams of the 90's may not have been HOF-laden, they were probably the most loaded teams of that era. One only needs to look at the '94 Bulls, who basically replaced MJ with a 10 ppg scorer in Toni Kukoc, and STILL went 55-27. And that team lost a controversial game seven to a Knick team, that lost a close game seven to the eventual champion Rockets.

I don't have a problem with those that claim MJ as the GOAT. BUT, he was not the ONLY player that is in the discussion. There are several that have legitimate arguments.

Great post

[az00m]

why are people rezzing a thread that died a year ago.

[Eat Like A Bosh]

I don't believe that MJ is the clear-cut GOAT. While I don't necessarily agree with the reasoning, there have been three players who seem to show up in most intelligent discussions on the topic. MJ, with his 6 titles, 5 MVPs, 6 Finals MVPs, statistical titles, and Finals stats. Kareem with his longevity, his domination of the entire decade of the 70's (and a top-5 player for much of the 80's), his 6 MVPs, 5 rings, 2 Finals MVPs (and probably should have been three), a few statistical titles, and generally exceptional play in the post-season. And finally, Russell, with his staggering team success. 11 rings in 13 years, 27 playoff series wins in 29 series, eight titles in a row, probably 8-9 Finals MVPs had the award existed his entire career, a few rebounding titles, and arguably the greatest defensive player of all-time. And before someone mentions his HOF-laden teams, yes, he played alongside loaded rosters, but still, Boston never won a title before he arrived, and they fell to 34-48 after he retired. And, several of those "HOFers" would not have made the HOF without him. Furthermore, and once again while I didn't necessarily agree with them, Russell was considered the best player of his era, and in 1980, a panel of basketball sportswriters voted him as the GOAT.

After those three, there are another handful of players who have legitimate arguments, as well. Bird, by the mid-to-late 80's, and before MJ arrived, was being hailed as the GOAT by many.

And with all due respect to Kareem, who was the best player for the entire decade of the 70's, the Lakers never sniffed a title before Magic arrived. And even after Kareem retired, Magic still led them to 63-19 and 58-24 records. And when Magic retired, the Lakers immediately plummetted to 43-39 and 39-43 records. Aside from Russell, Magic was perhaps the greatest "winner" in NBA history. His WORST team record, in 12 seasons, was 54-28. NINE Finals in 12 years, and five rings. Not only that, but a few points, or plays, or had he not been injured, and Magic was very close to three more titles. MJ played on six title teams, but he also languished on five losing teams, as well.

Duncan has been a 50+ "winner" every season in his career. He has taken different rosters to four titles. Not only that, but aside from 98-99, those rosters were probably not the best in the league in any of those title years.

As great as MJ was in the post-season, IMHO, Shaq's "three-peat", particularly in the Finals, was the most dominant post-seasons in NBA history (with perhaps Wilt's '67 season.) Opposing teams were so helpless in trying to stop him, that they basically "waved the white towel", and just resorted to fouling him. He even abused DPOY Motumbo, (as well as outrebounding and outblocking him.)

Finally, as great as Russell was, Chamberlain not only outplayed him in the vast majority of their H2H battles, he downright crushed him in about one-third of them. Had Russell not played in the NBA in the 60's, and Wilt may very well have won 7-8 rings in his career. In fact, in four of their H2H playoff series, Wilt's teams lost those four series, in game seven's, by a combined nine points. Throw in a questionable game five in the '70 Finals, and Wilt was an eye-lash away from winning five more titles. Furthermore, in his 29 post-season series, he probably outplayed his opposing center in ALL of them, and the majority of those were HOF centers. And, of course, there is the Record Book, in which his name is plastered on every page.

MJ was not infallible, either. I already mentioned his FIVE losing seasons. His teams were also 1-9 in his first ten playoff games. He had three very poor shooting Finals in his last three Finals (.455, .427, and .415.) And while those Bulls teams of the 90's may not have been HOF-laden, they were probably the most loaded teams of that era. One only needs to look at the '94 Bulls, who basically replaced MJ with a 10 ppg scorer in Toni Kukoc, and STILL went 55-27. And that team lost a controversial game seven to a Knick team, that lost a close game seven to the eventual champion Rockets.

I don't have a problem with those that claim MJ as the GOAT. BUT, he was not the ONLY player that is in the discussion. There are several that have legitimate arguments.
I agree. So many players were great in history, and you really can't just rule other players out just because you never seen them play.