Biggest freaks of nature in NBA history [Archive] - Message Board Basketball Forum

VCMVP1551

02-23-2008, 11:20 AM

1.Shaquille O'Neal- Somebody who is a legit 7'1" and well over 300 should have never been quick, agile or athletic in anyway much less one of the most athletic big men of all time. Shaq is so strong it is rumored he benches over 450 pounds with ease and tearing down a whole basketball hoop without any effort makes that easy to believe. Look at Shaq's stats from the 1992 pre-draft camp.

Height w/o shoes: 7'1"
Weight: 303
Wingspan: 7'7"
Body Fat: 12.2%
Standing Reach: 9'5"
Highest Touch: 12'4"
Vertical: 35 Inches

When you see how huge he is it is difficult to imagine him once having a 35 inch vertical and throwing down 360 dunks or dunking on the best defensive players in history with ease but that was a regular day for Shaq. He kept that 35 inch vertical for most of his career despite weighing much more than the 303 pounds he entered the league at.

2.Lebron James
Has there ever been anyone as big as Lebron who is that athletic. The guy is a legit 6'8", 260 pounds and he has a 44 inch vertical. Not to mention he is as quick as most point guards despite being bigger than most power forwards.

3.Wilt Chamberlain- I heard Wilt was a track star despite being 7'1". That is amazing and while some of the things you hear about Wilt seem like myths it is a fact that he was one of the elite high jumpers and track stars in the country. Wilt eventually bulked up to over 320 pounds but it was solid muscle and he is probably one of the most athletic and well conditioned players ever.

4.Dwight Howard- Dwight is 270-280 pounds yet he is doing these windmill dunks and winning dunk contests like it is nothing. His vertical leap has to be close to 40 inches and aside from that he is easily one of the strongest players I've ever seen. Maybe the most athletic big man ever.

5.Kevin Garnett- He can play any position and handle the ball like a point guard at 7 feet or 6'11 3/4"(KG loves the fact he is technically not a 7 footer). KG can also run the floor like a guard and jump out of the gym. I've seen him throw down some dunks that don't even seem possible. Easily one of the more versatile players of all time.

I didn't feel like just including average size/build swingmen like Michael Jordan, Vince Carter and Tracy McGrady who could jump high and there are a few other playes who came to mind like Ralph Sampson. Did I forget anyone?

Lakers13

02-23-2008, 11:26 AM

gabeh1018

02-23-2008, 11:28 AM

Ya gotta go with Wilt at one, he'd run circles around prime Shaq.

1. Wilt
2. Lebron
3. Shaq
4. KG
5. Dwight

Your list is pretty consistent with the "freaks" that have come in though, I really cant think of another at the moment either.

this board centers too many arguments and points around pure speculation...

another BULLS like comment

VCMVP1551

02-23-2008, 11:29 AM

brantonli

02-23-2008, 11:30 AM

You have to remember that at the other end of the spectrum are small players who played with the big guys, like Muggsy Bogues and Earl Boykins.

VCMVP1551

02-23-2008, 12:00 PM

Amare and prime Kemp. Pre-back injury Larry Johnson deserves a mention as well.

Amare and Kemp are good selections but LJ isn't as much of a freak as the rest. He is an athletic undersized power forward but so was Barkley.

Phenomenon

02-23-2008, 12:01 PM

Earl Boykins and Allen Iverson, are hugely underrated in that regard...

VCMVP1551

02-23-2008, 12:04 PM

Earl Boykins and Allen Iverson, are hugely underrated in that regard...

Boykins yes considering he is listed 5-5, 135 pounds yet he can bench press over 315 pounds. Iverson had a vertical leap of a little over 40 inches but for a guy 5-11" that is not shocking. I'd add Spud Webb and Nate Robinson before Iverson.

VCMVP1551

02-23-2008, 12:11 PM

Iverson is arguably the best athlete in the history of this game.

How? Yeah he's quick but there are players quicker and players who could jump higher. He's small for an NBA player but he isn't as shocing of a physical freak as say Dwight Howard who can jump almost as high despite being close to a foot bigger and probably 100 pounders heavier.

Phenomenon

02-23-2008, 12:15 PM

How? The guy can play multiple sports at a high level, takes the greatest amount of punishment for 10 years in this league against guys much bigger and stronger then him...yet he really hasn't lost a step at all.

You're so quick to praise a big guy like Shaquille but really neglect giving some love to the smaller athletes who take just as much punishment...Shaquille has gone down big time, while Iverson is still running on most of his cylinders.

Don't underrate this guy, easily one of the greatest "freaks of nature" this league has ever produced. I'm sure you played tackle football before, and was so sore the next day you couldn't get up off the couch...well just put yourself in Iverson's shoes...he's a SUPERSTAR who has the ball in his hand all the time, who drives inside consistently...gets thrown around like a rag doll, and still is playing at a high level.

Guy is incredible...also Michael Jordan...should be on this list this instance.

DeuceWallaces

02-23-2008, 12:15 PM

I think Shaq is the obvious answer. No one has ever been that big strong and quick all in one package.

VCMVP1551

02-23-2008, 12:18 PM

How? The guy can play multiple sports at a high level, takes the greatest amount of punishment for 10 years in this league against guys much bigger and stronger then him...yet he really hasn't lost a step at all.

You're so quick to praise a big guy like Shaquille but really neglect giving some love to the smaller athletes who take just as much punishment...Shaquille has gone down big time, while Iverson is still running on most of his cylinders.

Don't underrate this guy, easily one of the greatest "freaks of nature" this league has ever produced. I'm sure you played tackle football before, and was so sore the next day you couldn't get up off the couch...well just put yourself in Iverson's shoes...he's a SUPERSTAR who has the ball in his hand all the time, who drives inside consistently...gets thrown around like a rag doll, and still is playing at a high level.

I'm talking about guys who should not be able to do certain things physically. Shaq at over 7'1" and 300 pounds should not be that quick, athletic or agile. Lebron should not be that big, quick and athletic. Dwight Howard should not be that athletic at his height and weight. Iverson is very athletic but a 5-11 guy who is quick and has a 41 inch vertical is not shocking. Taking hits does not make you a freak of nature either.

VCMVP1551

02-23-2008, 12:21 PM

He's not just "quick." He's the quickest/fastest player ever. And no, Howard could not jump as high as prime Iverson. There might be 5-6 players of all-time who could jump as high or higher than Iverson. Also, weight has nothing to do with athleticism.

Howard himself said being 270 pounds makes it harder to do the things he does in the air and how do you know Iverson is the quickest player ever? There is no way to prove that.

OutOfPlace

02-23-2008, 12:21 PM

Anyone who thinks Wilt was more athletic than young Shaq seriously needs to actually watch them both in action. Orlando Shaq was bigger, stronger, faster, more nimble, a better leaper and more coordinated than Wilt ever was.

Also, I've said it before and I'll say it again, Dalembert is one of the most athletic players in NBA history. At 6'10, he can dunk from the FT line effortlessly.

Cavs2007Champs

02-23-2008, 12:35 PM

Iverson is not a freak of nature, I could find at least 10 guys just around Columbus, who are around his height or smaller, that are fast, quick, agile and can jump. He's what 6 feet and about 170, hell that's not freakish at all, just cuz he can jump high he is not a freak, I bet all of the track stars could jump as high as him.

It's not fair to judge Wilt vs. Shaq, there is about a 30 year gap between the 2 players, did many players back then look as fluid in their movements as opposed to the players of today, I mean times change, you learn about Exercise and weight Training and diet and all sorts of things can change how players develop.

Wilt was a freak, and Shaq is as well.

LeBron I'd call a freak, Dwight, Shaq, Wilt, Kemp was a big man who could jump, but that's about it.

So are we saying that if someone can jump high as hell that in itself makes them a freak of nature, Kemp and Iverson.

A true freak is a Vernon Davis who plays for the San Francisco 49ers... He's like 6'5 260, runs a 4.4, over a 40 inch vert, benches 400+, Squats about 700+ that's freakish numbers.

Having a high vertical and being quick, just makes you extremely athletic, which Iverson was, cuz he could play football and basketball at a high level, which is impressive.

KG I don't think is a freak of nature, he has freakish skills, being able to play how he does, but he's tall and has a thin frame, and can play multiple positions, but he isn't a freak of nature.

Yao Ming, Shawn Bradley, Manute Bol, George Muhresan are all Freaks of nature, 7'6-7'7 that is freakish no matter if they had no skills or can't jump or whatever, that's freakish as hell.

I'd put my money on Dwight Howard as the freakiest. I can't say much on Wilt since all I know are stories, but he's at the top for sure.

loot

02-23-2008, 12:42 PM

2.Lebron James
Has there ever been anyone as big as Lebron who is that athletic. The guy is a legit 6'8", 260 pounds and he has a 44 inch vertical. Not to mention he is as quick as most point guards despite being bigger than most power forwards.

bigger than most powerforwards?

White Chocolate

02-23-2008, 12:52 PM

1)Shaquille O'Neal- 7'1" and well over 300 pounds. Extremely agile and athletic. The more amazing thing is he only had about 10% body fat.

2)LeBron James- 6'7"-6'8" and 250 pounds, built like a tank, has the speed of a PG, the athleticism of a swingman, and the strength of a PF/C.

3)Nate Robinson- only 5'8", but he has to be the most athletic person under 6'0" in NBA history. He can do 360s and between the legs dunks, and has a 48" vertical I believe.

4)Ben Wallace- 6'7" 240 pounds playing C. He can bench press over 400 pounds and in his prime, could jump out of the gym.

5)Wilt Chamberlain- though not as built as Shaq, was even more athletic. Wilt was a track star at one point and could bench press about 375 pounds.

6)Michael Jordan- we all know MJ for his skills. But, for a guy that was nothing over 6'5", for him to do the things he did, such as staying in mid-air for several seconds, and flying through the air, is most certainly freakish. I think his vertical was 42". As far as I'm concerned, anyone that can dunk from the foul line is a freak of nature(MJ, VC, Dr.J, James White, young Brent Barry).

VCMVP1551

02-23-2008, 12:59 PM

White Chocolate

02-23-2008, 01:00 PM

Nice list and by the way Lebron has grown and gotten heavier since being drafted. He has grown to 6'8" barefoot and he admitted to weighing 260 pounds now.

6'8" 260 and not an ounce of fat. He would have made one hell of a TE in the NFL.

VCMVP1551

02-23-2008, 01:05 PM

bigger than most powerforwards?

Overall yeah...height and weight is as big or bigger than most power forwards. Most power forwards aren't a legit 6'8" and 260. Many of them are taller and some are heavier but not many are both. Lebron is slightly taller than guys like Elton Brand and Carlos Boozer now and about equal as far as weight. Not many power forwards weigh 260. Dirk is something like 250, Garnett is only like 220-240 ect.

VCMVP1551

02-23-2008, 01:08 PM

6'8" 260 and not an ounce of fat. He would have made one hell of a TE in the NFL.

Yeah and with his quickness/athletisism there is a reason why when he drives he almost always scores.

ForceOfNature

02-23-2008, 01:29 PM

Shaq should not be No. 1, he only had a 35-inch vertical leap as a 20-year old.

My list:

1) LeBron James - the combination of speed, strength, agility, and overall athleticism wins it here. He's not as built as people say he is, he's got a wide torso, but not a huge body, his arms are skinny.

2) Dwight Howard - has a terrific vertical leap despite his weight, and he is really built like a tank (LeBron's arms look like toothpicks compared to this guy)

3) Michael Jordan - supposedly had extra muscles in his legs that enabled him to be more athletic. Possessed great athleticism and strength, along with a great intelligence of the game.

4) Vince Carter - amazing leaping ability (could jump higher on his dunks than anyone I can recall, besides James White), has a lot of strength and power, and has speed and quickness.

5) Earl Boykins - being able to bench press 315 pounds at only 133 pounds is phenomenal.

White Chocolate

02-23-2008, 01:34 PM

LJJ

02-23-2008, 01:43 PM

No mention of Bill Russell yet?

Along with being arguably the best basketball player of all time, he was also a top ten high jumper in the world in his day.

RainierBeachPoet

02-23-2008, 02:08 PM

Gheorghe Mureasan!!

7'7" 303

http://www.numaibaschet.ro/photos/paragraf/742/muresan.jpg

Dwight_Howard12

02-23-2008, 02:22 PM

1. Mutombo(Because of his voice) - http://youtube.com/watch?v=POkyWhh3Ihw&feature=related
2. Chris Bosh(Dinosaur) - http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=ev15di&s=3
3. Glen Davis(Hasn't Aged) - http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=qyy739&s=3

VCMVP1551

02-23-2008, 02:23 PM

Uh...'only" a 35 inch vertical? Compare him to Greg Oden who was called an amazing athlete

Shaq(1992)
Height w/o shoes: 7'1"
Weight: 303
Wingspan: 7'7"
Body Fat: 12.2%
Standing Reach: 9'5"
Highest Touch: 12'4"
Vertical: 35 Inches

Greg Oden(2007)
Height w/o shoes: 6'11"
Weight: 257
Wingspan: 7'4.25"
Body Fat: 7.8%
Standing Reach: 9'4"
Highest Touch: 12'2"
Vertical: 34 Inches

So Shaq had a higher vertical, he was 2 inches taller and already 45 pounds heavier than someone who was called also called a freak of nature yet Shaq isn't one? BTW I don't rule out Shaq's vertical being slightly higher than that because many players test lower. Dwight Howard only had a 35.5 inch vertical when he was drafted and he measured 63 pounds lighter/4 inches shorter than Shaq. Dwight of course has proven to have a vertical close to 40 inches and considering Shaq lowered his body fat % after he was drafted I wouldn't rule out Shaq having a vertical slightly higher than 35 inches.

Gheorghe Mureasan!!

7'7" 303

http://www.numaibaschet.ro/photos/paragraf/742/muresan.jpg

I'll pick Manute Bol. Manute was the tallest player in NBA history yet he only weighed 180 pounds when he entered the league but what was really scary was his 8'6" wingspan.

L.Kizzle

02-23-2008, 02:23 PM

If MJ makes this list, how does every athletic swim man superstar not make the list? Baylor, Doc, Clyde, Nique, Kobe, Mac, ect.

mrhoopfan

02-23-2008, 02:26 PM

VCMVP1551

02-23-2008, 02:27 PM

If MJ makes this list, how does every athletic swim man superstar not make the list? Baylor, Doc, Clyde, Nique, Kobe, Mac, ect.

I don't think any of them were ever as athletic as prime Jordan except maybe Doc. Kobe isn't even close, T-Mac was more athletic than Kobe but I don't think he was ever as athletic as Jordan, I never heard of Baylor being as athletic as Jordan and I have never seen anything to show he was. Dominique was probably pretty close and Clyde was probably close in his prime too but I think Jordan could jump higher than all of them and he seemed much quicker.

VCMVP1551

02-23-2008, 02:29 PM

David Robinson- Chiseld, coordinated, ran like a gazelle

TMac- 6'8, guard-like handle, can shoot from 30 feet out, in his athletic prime could jump out a gym

Magic- 6'9 playing the point.....enough said

Forgot about Robinson. Nothing freakish about T-Mac's handle though and he can't shoot out to 30 as well as Ray Allen, Kobe or VC can. Lebron handles the ball like a point guard often and he is bigger than Magic while Scottie was as big and he played as a point forward so I wouldn't call Magic a freak of nature. David Robinson being that athletic at 7'0" was a freak of nature though.

L.Kizzle

02-23-2008, 02:31 PM

Artis Gilmore deserves some mention?

VCMVP1551

02-23-2008, 02:36 PM

Artis Gilmore deserves some mention?

Yeah wasn't he in dunk contests and something like 7'1" or 7'2"?

chains5000

02-23-2008, 02:37 PM

http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1320/1408067140_236dc13920.jpg

Vendetta

02-23-2008, 02:39 PM

Shaq(1992)
Height w/o shoes: 7'1"
Weight: 303
Wingspan: 7'7"
Body Fat: 12.2%
Standing Reach: 9'5"
Highest Touch: 12'4"
Vertical: 35 Inches

Greg Oden(2007)
Height w/o shoes: 6'11"
Weight: 257
Wingspan: 7'4.25"
Body Fat: 7.8%
Standing Reach: 9'4"
Highest Touch: 12'2"
Vertical: 34 Inches

Anyone else see this? Shaq is 2 inches taller, has a wingspan that's 2.75 inches longer and only has a standing reach of 1 inch more?

Plus, as far as the OP goes... lol if you think LeBron can jump 4 inches higher than Howard.

usdmef9

02-23-2008, 02:39 PM

Doesn't Cuttino Mobley have some freakishly wide wing span?

sbw19

02-23-2008, 02:40 PM

[quote=Johnny Ludden, Yahoo! Sports][COLOR=Gray][B]Dwight Howard can take his cape to the dunk contest, but O

TMac&Luther

02-23-2008, 02:42 PM

VCMVP1551

02-23-2008, 02:42 PM

Anyone else see this? Shaq is 2 inches taller, has a wingspan that's 2.75 inches longer and only has a standing reach of 1 inch more?

Plus, as far as the OP goes... lol if you think LeBron can jump 4 inches higher than Howard.

Lebron can jump 3-4 inches higher than Howard. He is a little shorter but his vertical leap is higher.

Vendetta

02-23-2008, 02:44 PM

Lebron can jump 3-4 inches higher than Howard. He is a little shorter but his vertical leap is higher.

You said LeBron has a 44" vertical and that Dwight Howard "must have a vertical approaching 40 inches" which means that you don't think he's at 40 which means you think that LeBron can jump over 4 inches higher off the ground. Sorry. Not reality.

VCMVP1551

02-23-2008, 02:45 PM

You said LeBron has a 44" vertical and that Dwight Howard "must have a vertical approaching 40 inches" which means that you don't think he's at 40 which means you think that LeBron can jump over 4 inches higher off the ground. Sorry. Not reality.

Dwight's vertical leap was reported at 38-39 inches last I heard. Lebron's reported vertical leap of 44" sounds accurate and so oes Dwight's.

Vendetta

02-23-2008, 02:47 PM

Dwight is only 6'9" barefoot. Sorry to everyone that everyone thinks he's 6'11" or 7 foot.

VCMVP1551

02-23-2008, 02:50 PM

Dwight is only 6'9" barefoot. Sorry to everyone that everyone thinks he's 6'11" or 7 foot.

That's what he measured when he was drafted at 18 years old but he looks taller than that now. Amare Stoudemire grew to a bit over 6'9" barefoot so Dwight might have too. I heard on this site Dwight claimed to be 6'9 1/2" now.

VCMVP1551

02-23-2008, 02:57 PM

http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1320/1408067140_236dc13920.jpg

Well I posted Shaq's stats from the 92' pre-draft camp so I'll post Miller's....kind of shocking actually.

Oliver Miller
Height w/o shoes: 6'7.5"
Weight: 318
Body Fat: 22 %

And to think it is well documented he was much heavier later in his career. I heard at one point he was around 400 pounds which makes me wonder WTF was his body fat % then????!!!

Raindrops

02-23-2008, 03:04 PM

You might have to include Hakeem in this. About 6'10 and faster than guards and insanely skilled. When your center is picking guards' pockets I think you have a freak of nature.

VCMVP1551

02-23-2008, 03:27 PM

You might have to include Hakeem in this. About 6'10 and faster than guards and insanely skilled. When your center is picking guards' pockets I think you have a freak of nature.

Good point but I think Robinson was a bigger freak of nature because he was probably more athletic, bigger and stronger. Hakeem was the better player though.

Loki

02-23-2008, 03:47 PM

If MJ makes this list, how does every athletic swim man superstar not make the list? Baylor, Doc, Clyde, Nique, Kobe, Mac, ect.

Because none were as athletic as him? No one had the package Jordan had:

- Drexler had comparable end-to-end speed and one-footed leaping ability, but not the two-footed leap or leap off a hop step like Jordan did. Jordan was also significantly quicker/more agile, had better body control, and was WAY more explosive (i.e., first step, changing speeds, i.e. acceleration).

- Nique was a better leaper than Jordan off two feet, but that's about it. He fell short in every other category as an athlete (in many respects well short).

- Kobe? He has elite body control (the area where he's closest to Jordan athletically) and terrific lateral quickness, but he's not the leaper that Jordan was, isn't as fast end-to-end, and is nowhere near as explosive.

- TMac never had the quickness or speed Jordan had nor the explosiveness. Is a worse leaper off of two feet. Tremendous athlete considering his size, however. His body control at his height is unmatched in history imo.

- Vince Carter is probably the closest player athletically to Jordan. Similar/better leaper off of two feet (though he doesn't explode off a hop step nearly as well as Jordan did; VC always had to plant both feet and dip his knees on his dunk attempts), great body control (though below both Kobe and Jordan imo), great first step in his prime. He falls short in lateral quickness, end-to-end speed, slightly in body control and in certain aspects of leaping.

- Dr. J wasn't nearly as quick laterally as Jordan. Based on what I've seen, he wasn't as fast end-to-end, either. Very explosive first step, though, but not as good as changing speed suddenly. Not as good a leaper off two feet as Jordan.

VCMVP1551

02-23-2008, 03:49 PM

- TMac never had the quickness or speed Jordan had nor the explosiveness. Is a worse leaper off of two feet. Tremendous athlete considering his size, however. His body control at his height is unmatched in history imo.

Lebron is bigger and a better athlete than T-Mac ever was.

Diesel J

02-23-2008, 03:56 PM

Because none were as athletic as him? No one had the package Jordan had:

- Drexler had comparable end-to-end speed and one-footed leaping ability, but not the two-footed leap or leap off a hop step like Jordan did. Jordan was also significantly quicker/more agile, had better body control, and was WAY more explosive (i.e., first step, changing speeds, i.e. acceleration).

- Nique was a better leaper than Jordan off two feet, but that's about it. He fell short in every other category as an athlete (in many respects well short).

- Kobe? He has elite body control (the area where he's closest to Jordan athletically) and terrific lateral quickness, but he's not the leaper that Jordan was, isn't as fast end-to-end, and is nowhere near as explosive.

- TMac never had the quickness or speed Jordan had nor the explosiveness. Is a worse leaper off of two feet. Tremendous athlete considering his size, however. His body control at his height is unmatched in history imo.

- Vince Carter is probably the closest player athletically to Jordan. Similar/better leaper off of two feet (though he doesn't explode off a hop step nearly as well as Jordan did; VC always had to plant both feet and dip his knees on his dunk attempts), great body control (though below both Kobe and Jordan imo), great first step in his prime. He falls short in lateral quickness, end-to-end speed, slightly in body control and in certain aspects of leaping.

- Dr. J wasn't nearly as quick laterally as Jordan. Based on what I've seen, he wasn't as fast end-to-end, either. Very explosive first step, though, but not as good as changing speed suddenly. Not as good a leaper off two feet as Jordan.

I agree

Mango

02-23-2008, 03:58 PM

Lebron is bigger and a better athlete than T-Mac ever was.

Don't confuse strength and speed with athleticism. Back in his Orlando days, TMac was an amazing athlete and player. More athletic than LeBron (who's too "stiff" IMO) and a better player as well.

VCMVP1551

02-23-2008, 04:03 PM

Don't confuse strength and speed with athleticism. Back in his Orlando days, TMac was an amazing athlete and player. More athletic than LeBron (who's too "stiff" IMO) and a better player as well.

T-Mac did make a lot of miraculous shots but Vince Carter is about the same size as T-Mac and he has always been more athletic.

Wuxia

02-23-2008, 04:04 PM

David Robinson deserves a mention. He was by far the most athletic big men I have ever seen. Even more so than Kevin Garnett.

I'm not sure I can say he is more athletic than Shaq considering how ridiculously big Shaq is, but other than Shaq I don't see anyone as athletic as David RObinson.

Richie2k6

02-23-2008, 04:08 PM

and how do you know Iverson is the quickest player ever?
By watching him play. Name a quicker player. Zeke? Didn't have Iverson's complete package. Being quick and being a fast runner are two different things. I can't think of a player in NBA history with as much speed and quickness all in one package combined with athletic ability like AI. A young Iverson could go coast to coast faster than Barbosa. Could crossover quicker than Crawford. Could not be caught on a fast break. Could get to the rim at will. Could change direction in a second.

A young Iverson was also a freakish leaper. I can't think of any other 5"11 guards who had 42 inch verticals. He dunked on and around PFs and Cs quite a bit in his early years. I also can't think of many other 32 year olds who could play 40+ minutes for like 30 consecutive games. Back-to-backs are nothing to him. He doesn't sweat. He gets mad when he's benched, because he's never physically deteriorated. His coaches call him a genetic freak because he never gets tired. He gets injured all the time and play through it all. Has one of the best hand-eye co-ordination of any NBA player in history. Can still dunk at 5"11 at age 32, and he's not slowing down. And to think he's done all this in a league dominated by bigs while being his size and having his body structure and accomplished what he has, yes, I would quialify him as a freak of nature.

crisoner

02-23-2008, 04:11 PM

No love for Dirk????

L.Kizzle

02-23-2008, 04:13 PM

No love for Dirk????
Why?

Gettin' posted up by Manta Ellis doesn't make you a freak of nature.

VCMVP1551

02-23-2008, 04:13 PM

By watching him play. A young Iverson could go coast to coast faster than Barbosa. Could crossover quicker than Crawford. Could not be caught on a fast break. Could get to the rim at will. Could change direction in a second.

A young Iverson was also a freakish leaper. I can't think of any other 5"11 guards who had 42 inch verticals. He dunked on and around PFs and Cs quite a bit in his early years. I also can't think of many other 32 year olds who could play 40+ minutes for like 30 consecutive games. Back-to-backs are nothing to him. He doesn't sweat. He gets mad when he's benched, because he's never physically deteriorated. His coaches call him a genetic freak because he never gets tired. He gets injured all the time and play through it all. Has one of the best hand-eye co-ordination of any NBA player in history. Can still dunk at 5"11 at age 32, and he's not slowing down. And to think he's done all this in a league dominated by bigs while being his size and having his body structure and accomplished what he has, yes, I would quialify him as a freak of nature.

Calling someone the quickest player in NBA history is subjective. It can't be proven. He is up there without a doubt but it is not a fact he is the quickest

As far as other guards with 42 inch or higher verticals...Spud Webb, Nate Robinson, Michael Jordan, Vince Carter, T-Mac, Clyde Drexler ect. I listed players both shorter and tall than Iverson with verticals that high. Freak of nature comes to mind when you see someone 7 feet tall running the floor like a small forward to me.

Richie2k6

02-23-2008, 04:14 PM

I really don't know why Yao and Dirk have been mentioned in this thread. It's purely about physical talent and athleticism, not skill. Yao and Dirk aren't near some of the most athletic players in NBA history.

L.Kizzle

02-23-2008, 04:14 PM

Freak of nature comes to mind when you see someone 7 feet tall running the floor like a small forward to me.
Like Ralph Sampson?

Richie2k6

02-23-2008, 04:16 PM

Calling someone the quickest player in NBA history is subjective. It can't be proven. He is up there without a doubt but it is not a fact he is the quickest
Fair enough, but most would definitely put him in the top 3 without a doubt.

As far as other guards with 42 inch or higher verticals...Spud Webb, Nate Robinson, Michael Jordan, Vince Carter, T-Mac, Clyde Drexler ect. I listed players both shorter and tall than Iverson with verticals that high.
So really there's only two in NBA history shorter than AI that could jump higher. Jordan, Carter, McGrady, Drexler are all 6+ inches taller, and it's obviously harder to jump higher when you're shorter. So he's the 3rd highest under 6-foot leaper in NBA history, plus everything else I just said. Wouldn't you say that makes him a freak of nature?

TMac&Luther

02-23-2008, 04:20 PM

Good point but I think Robinson was a bigger freak of nature because he was probably more athletic, bigger and stronger. Hakeem was the better player though.

Hakeem was every bit as athletic and quick as Drob...he was actually faster than Robinson.....that's the whole reason he was able to own him in the 95 playoffs, David Robinson couldn't stay with Hakeem. You don't become the all-time shot blocker without unmatched athleticism and great quickness.

VCMVP1551

02-23-2008, 04:22 PM

Hakeem was every bit as athletic and quick as Drob...he was actually faster than Robinson.....that's the whole reason he was able to own him in the 95 playoffs, David Robinson couldn't stay with Hakeem.

Hakeem's incredible footwork and post moves was the main reason Robinson couldn't guard him. Hakeem had better post moves than any other player big man I can think of.

VCMVP1551

02-23-2008, 04:26 PM

Fair enough, but most would definitely put him in the top 3 without a doubt.

So really there's only two in NBA history shorter than AI that could jump higher. Jordan, Carter, McGrady, Drexler are all 6+ inches taller, and it's obviously harder to jump higher when you're shorter. So he's the 3rd highest under 6-foot leaper in NBA history, plus everything else I just said. Wouldn't you say that makes him a freak of nature?

I haven't gone through all of the pre-draft combine tests looking for every player under 6 feet. I forgot Jordan Farmar is just a little over 6 feet and he has a 42 inch vertical too. If Nate Robinson is a freak of nature then I'd call Iverson one but I'm not sure. The reason someone like Boykins would be considered one is because he bench presses 180 pounds above his weight.

el_locoteee

02-23-2008, 04:26 PM

Anyone else see this? Shaq is 2 inches taller, has a wingspan that's 2.75 inches longer and only has a standing reach of 1 inch more?

Plus, as far as the OP goes... lol if you think LeBron can jump 4 inches higher than Howard.

Maybe Shaq have a bigger head :confusedshrug:

BTW Lebron have 4+ vertical than DH, but DH is taller so he can reach higher than Lebron. Actually Nate Robinson have a higher vertical than DH

VCMVP1551

02-23-2008, 04:26 PM

Like Ralph Sampson?

Yeah I mentioned him in my first post although I have only seen him through older videos and I've seen him in only like 3-4 games.

Wuxia

02-23-2008, 04:30 PM

Hakeem was every bit as athletic and quick as Drob...he was actually faster than Robinson.....that's the whole reason he was able to own him in the 95 playoffs, David Robinson couldn't stay with Hakeem. You don't become the all-time shot blocker without unmatched athleticism and great quickness.

Hakeem was not as quick nor athletic as DRob. In a 100 dash or a jumping contest, DRob would destroy him. What Hakeem has on DRob was an unmatched arsenal of post moves and the greatest footwork ever for a big man.

L.Kizzle

02-23-2008, 04:35 PM

Yeah I mentioned him in my first post although I have only seen him through older videos and I've seen him in only like 3-4 games.
Ralph was nasty. A 7'4 PF/C who could run the break like a PG. I've seen plays of him getting the rebound and going coast-to-coast dribbling behind his back and everything all the way to the hoop for a dunk. speaking of dunking, was in the first NBA Dunk Contest. I think he could touch the top of the glass also...

Lakers13

02-23-2008, 04:42 PM

this board centers too many arguments and points around pure speculation...

another BULLS like comment

Go watch Wilt on You Tube and see what kind of player he was.

You didnt add anything to this thread.

Another troll like comment...

VCMVP1551

02-23-2008, 04:43 PM

Ralph was nasty. A 7'4 PF/C who could run the break like a PG. I've seen plays of him getting the rebound and going coast-to-coast dribbling behind his back and everything all the way to the hoop for a dunk. speaking of dunking, was in the first NBA Dunk Contest. I think he could touch the top of the glass also...

Yeah and of course there is the famous series winning shot vs the Lakers in 86'. Kind of like a 7'4" Kevin Garnett.

White Chocolate

02-23-2008, 04:47 PM

Hakeem was not as quick nor athletic as DRob. In a 100 dash or a jumping contest, DRob would destroy him. What Hakeem has on DRob was an unmatched arsenal of post moves and the greatest footwork ever for a big man.

No doubt Admiral was the better athlete of the two, but Olajuwon was the much better overall player, and his defense was much better.

Valliant13

02-23-2008, 04:53 PM

Yao is definitely top 5, because in the history of the league there's never been a giant that just wasn't a big stiff or one remotely as skilled as Yao...........you know your a freak of nature when your the first of your kind.

Arvydas Sabonis was more skilled than Yao.
Rik Smits was comparably skilled, and had more team success.

Yao is still a freak, in terms of being that coordinated at that size...but not quite with peer.

OutOfPlace

02-23-2008, 04:55 PM

DRob was NOT a better athlete than Hakeem. Robinson probably ran faster and jumped higher, but he was kind of mechanical and lacked great body control. Hakeem's coordination and fluidity was unrivalled.

Valliant13

02-23-2008, 04:58 PM

Fair enough, but most would definitely put him in the top 3 without a doubt.

So really there's only two in NBA history shorter than AI that could jump higher. Jordan, Carter, McGrady, Drexler are all 6+ inches taller, and it's obviously harder to jump higher when you're shorter. So he's the 3rd highest under 6-foot leaper in NBA history, plus everything else I just said. Wouldn't you say that makes him a freak of nature?

What! It is much easier to jump higher when you are smaller. The more weight you have, the harder it is to move that weight off the ground. By your rational the average 7' footer should have a higher vert than the average 6'4 player...which is the exact opposite of reality.

Richie2k6

02-23-2008, 05:01 PM

What! It is much easier to jump higher when you are smaller. The more weight you have, the harder it is to move that weight off the ground. By your rational the average 7' footer should have a higher vert than the average 6'4 player...which is the exact opposite of reality.
Ok, let me re-word that. It obviously harder to touch a high spot (by default, excluding vertical leaps) if you're shorter than the next guy. If two average joes with the same athletic ability were asked to touch a certain height and one was 5 inches shorter than the other, the taller guy is going to have an easier time touching that point.

White Chocolate

02-23-2008, 05:05 PM

Ok, let me re-word that. It obviously harder to touch a high spot (by default, excluding vertical leaps) if you're shorter than the next guy. If two average joes with the same athletic ability were asked to touch a certain height and one was 5 inches shorter than the other, the taller guy is going to have an easier time touching that point.

Exactly. Taller players may have a higher touch, but the shorter guys have a higher vertical. Take a 7'1" guy and a 6'4" guy. The 7'1" guy will naturally have the higher touch, but the 6'4" guy would have a higher vertical. Guys that are freakishly tall have weak legs, especially the knees.

Kblaze8855

02-23-2008, 05:06 PM

The problem with Wilt is I don't know what was true and what wasn't. For example I don't believe that he had a 56 inch vertical or he jumped from the free throw line and dunked on his free throws but I know for a fact the stuff about him being an elite high jumper and track star is true.

Of course he didnt have a 56 inch vertical but whats hard to believe about him coming from the FT line? He was a 7'1'' track star with a 9'6'' standing reach. Taking off behind the FT line shouldnt be trouble. Jeff Foster can dunk from the FT line. If youre his size and using the awful technique they had in the 50s can highjump 6'7''(ive seen a track coach say hed have been over 7 if he made it a priority) and longjump about 24 feet you can dunk from the FT line. Why wouldnt he do it before there was a rule saying he couldnt? Hes the reason the rule exists. NCAA found he could do it and changed the rule. Even if he didnt always dunk it he could lay it in easily im sure. I dont see why hed say he did it before they changed the rule. Its not even that brag worthy.

VCMVP1551

02-23-2008, 05:08 PM

Of course he didnt have a 56 inch vertical but whats hard to believe about him coming from the FT line? He was a 7'1'' track star with a 9'6'' standing reach. Taking off behind the FT line shouldnt be trouble. Jeff Foster can dunk from the FT line. If youre his size and using the awful technique they had in the 50s can highjump 6'7''(ive seen a track coach say hed have been over 7 if he made it a priority) and longjump about 24 feet you can dunk from the FT line. Why wouldnt he do it before there was a rule saying he couldnt? Hes the reason the rule exists. NCAA found he could do it and changed the rule. Even if he didnt always dunk it he could lay it in easily im sure. I dont see why hed say he did it before they changed the rule. Its not even that brag worthy.

I didn't know you could jump and lay it in. I thought you could only jump and dunk from the free throw line or shoot free throws in a normal way.

RidonKs

02-23-2008, 05:18 PM

I didn't know you could jump and lay it in. I thought you could only jump and dunk from the free throw line or shoot free throws in a normal way.
The rule is, or at least it was, that your feet just couldn't touch past the FT line before the ball hit the rim/went through the basket. So laying it in would accomplish that same thing, as long as you got the ball into the bucket before your feet touched down.

VCMVP1551

02-23-2008, 05:20 PM

The rule is, or at least it was, that your feet just couldn't touch past the FT line before the ball hit the rim/went through the basket. So laying it in would accomplish that same thing, as long as you got the ball into the bucket before your feet touched down.

Ok thanks. It would be weird seeing some old film where players were actually doing that. I did see one clip of Wilt dunking from out of bounds. i guess that rule was changed too with inbounding the ball.

Kblaze8855

02-23-2008, 05:23 PM

I find it a bit unlikely Jordan is the best athlete at the 2/3 ever. Best player sure. But athlete? Number of guys right there with him. He does things better than some and others do things better than him. James white ive seen dunk from about 15 feet. Go through his legs from the FT line. Windmills from 16 feet. Get inches from a 13 foot top of the backboard touch. He high jumps 7'4'' and long juimps 26 feet and its just a part time thing. Im sure Jordan was stronger and id not bet against faster but who knows who would come out best overall.

Put through a set of athletic tests id be suprised if MJ came out #1 all time. Didnt a coach say Vince Carter had in all around numbers the greatest pre draft of all time? Jordans will, work ethic, and skills makes him what he is not his athletic ability. Sure factors in a lot but I gotta believe there are a lot of Jordans out there physically. Its all the rest that made him what he was.

Im not sure that just in athletic ability Jordan is better than Harold Minor who was a crazy leaper, strong as hell, and had a wicked first step. He was 3-4 inches shorter though so its not the best comparison.

RidonKs

02-23-2008, 05:23 PM

Ok thanks. It would be weird seeing some old film where players were actually doing that. I did see one clip of Wilt dunking from out of bounds. i guess that rule was changed too with inbounding the ball.
I'm not saying he definitely did it, just that it was most likely in the rules for him to do so. It's not like there was an actual rule stating that you were allowed to dunk for your FT's. There just wasn't a rule stating that you weren't allowed to do that, and given the real rules for FT's, Wilt found dunking as a loophole. Given those same rules, lay-ups would've been well within the realm of possibility for him too.

Kblaze8855

02-23-2008, 05:26 PM

Ok thanks. It would be weird seeing some old film where players were actually doing that. I did see one clip of Wilt dunking from out of bounds. i guess that rule was changed too with inbounding the ball.

Yea it was. Wilt changed a lot of rules. The game was changed on every level to slow him down. In HS and college his team would just lob it over the backboard to him for a dunk from out of bounds. So it was decided you cant throw it over the backboard. Hed take off from the Ft line so it was decided you cant leave your feet on a FT. Hed dunk in any misses or guide them in before they got to the goal so offensive goaltending was invented.

They basically remade the game to stop him.

White Chocolate

02-23-2008, 05:31 PM

I find it a bit unlikely Jordan is the best athlete at the 2/3 ever. Best player sure. But athlete? Number of guys right there with him. He does things better than some and others do things better than him. James white ive seen dunk from about 15 feet. Go through his legs from the FT line. Windmills from 15 feet. Get inches from a 13 foot top of the backboard touch. He high jumps 7'4'' and long juimps 26 feet and its just a part time thing. Im sure Jordan was stronger and id not bet against faster but who knows who would come out best overall.

Put through a set of athletic tests id be suprised if MJ came out #1 all time. Didnt a coach say Vince Carter had in all around numbers the greatest pre draft of all time? Jordans will, work ethic, and skills makes him what he is not his athletic ability. Sure factors in a lot but I gotta believe there are a lot of Jordans out there physically. Its all the rest that made him what he was.

Im not sure that just in athletic ability Jordan is better than Harold Minor who was a crazy leaper, strong as hell, and had a wicked first step. He was 3-4 inches shorter though so its not the best comparison.

Jordan was the best overall athlete at that position. Some guys may have had a slight advantage in 2 foot jumping, 1 foot jumping, etc. However, the best athlete in terms of 1 foot jumping, 2 foot jumping, lateral quickness, agility, end to end speed, first step, and explosiveness was Michael Jordan.

Kblaze8855

02-23-2008, 05:36 PM

I wouldnt be suprised if Vince had him beat in 3 of those. And Carl Lewis got drafted by the Bulls in 83 or 84. Not sure if thats makes him count or not.

Fedor - Laker

02-23-2008, 05:41 PM

Iverson is arguably the best athlete in the history of this game.
uhm no....

OutOfPlace

02-23-2008, 05:45 PM

C'mon guys, Jordan isn't even close to being the most athletic SG in NBA history. Heck, guys like Jeff Trepagnier, James White and Gerald Green are all more athletic than Jordan.

L.Kizzle

02-23-2008, 05:47 PM

C'mon guys, Jordan isn't even close to being the most athletic SG in NBA history. Heck, guys like Jeff Trepagnier, James White and Gerald Green are all more athletic than Jordan.
Was he that athletic? I always remember him as one of the scrubs always on the free agent list on the NBA 2K games.

White Chocolate

02-23-2008, 05:48 PM

C'mon guys, Jordan isn't even close to being the most athletic SG in NBA history. Heck, guys like Jeff Trepagnier, James White and Gerald Green are all more athletic than Jordan.

There's more to athleticism than leaping ability. There's 1 foot jumping, 2 foot jumping, agility, end to end speed, explosiveness, first step quickness.

Valliant13

02-23-2008, 05:49 PM

I wouldnt be suprised if Vince had him beat in 3 of those. And Carl Lewis got drafted by the Bulls in 83 or 84. Not sure if thats makes him count or not.

Ha... I would have love to have seen him play. I'm sure he had no skills at all, but he was top 10 all time athletic for a Human being. Even at 6'2 he could have thrown down some wicked dunks...probably.

Donvan Bailey worked out for a NFL team and his 40 was a 3.68 or so. In NBA terms thats like having a 60' vert (in terms of standards of deviation better).
Mind he was also the world record holder and reigning fastest man alive at the time.

Loki

02-23-2008, 05:57 PM

C'mon guys, Jordan isn't even close to being the most athletic SG in NBA history. Heck, guys like Jeff Trepagnier, James White and Gerald Green are all more athletic than Jordan.

This is a joke, right? White and Green are nowhere NEAR as explosive as Jordan, nor do they have nearly the body control or agility, never mind the pure speed. Get a grip, please. Has James White ever even jumped off of two feet or a hop step for a dunk? That's what I thought...

Never saw the other dude so I can't talk.

OutOfPlace

02-23-2008, 05:58 PM

Was he that athletic? I always remember him as one of the scrubs always on the free agent list on the NBA 2K games.

He had a 45 inch vertical, high jumped over 7 feet, had ridiculous quickness and explosiveness, and was just overall one of the most athletic SG's of all time. He sucked at the actual game of basketball though.

KINGD

02-23-2008, 05:58 PM

I read somewhere about Jordan doing some baseball test and having hand-eye coordination that trumps everybody...

OutOfPlace

02-23-2008, 06:03 PM

This is a joke, right? White and Green are nowhere NEAR as explosive as Jordan, nor do they have nearly the body control or agility, never mind the pure speed. Get a grip, please. Has James White ever even jumped off of two feet or a hop step for a dunk? That's what I thought...

Never saw the other dude so I can't talk.

-Jordan really wasn't that explosive. Jordan's dunks always looked smooth and elegant. He wasn't a great in-game dunker either... never really posterised anyone the way e.g. Vince can.

-Gerald Green may not have the body control or strength of Jordan, but he has Jordan beat when it comes to length, explosiveness and leaping ability. GG routinely looks down into the basket when dunking.

-James White is an olympic caliber athlete who can touch the top of the backboard. That alone puts him in another stratosphere to Jordan.

White Chocolate

02-23-2008, 06:06 PM

-Jordan really wasn't that explosive. Jordan's dunks always looked smooth and elegant. He wasn't a great in-game dunker either... never really posterised anyone the way e.g. Vince can.

-Gerald Green may not have the body control or strength of Jordan, but he has Jordan beat when it comes to length, explosiveness and leaping ability. GG routinely looks down into the basket when dunking.

-James White is an olympic caliber athlete who can touch the top of the backboard. That alone puts him in another stratosphere to Jordan.

Are you kidding me?

OutOfPlace

02-23-2008, 06:09 PM

Are you kidding me?

Seriously, watch the games. Jordan was an amazing dunker, but he wasn't up there with the all-time greats. Vince, Kemp etc.

He's the best NBA player ever, but he isn't even close to being the best NBA athlete ever.

White Chocolate

02-23-2008, 06:13 PM

Seriously, watch the games. Jordan was an amazing dunker, but he wasn't up there with the all-time greats. Vince, Kemp etc.

He's the best NBA player ever, but he isn't even close to being the best NBA athlete ever.

Shawn Kemp was a power dunker and Vince was too to an extent. Jordan could fly and twist in the air like it was nothing. No one had the ability to hang in mid-air, take contact, and still thrown down a jam like MJ. Not to mention, his circus shots as well. Like I said before, athleticism is many different aspects. Just because Gerald Green can look down at the hoop on a dunk doesn't make him a better athlete than Michael Jordan.

Bruinlove

02-23-2008, 06:14 PM

this board centers too many arguments and points around pure speculation...

another BULLS like comment
Not speculation at all. Back in the day Wilt would bring the ball up the court on the fast break like a gaurd. He was a once in a lifetime kind of dude. In allstar games and stuff when you see Shaq call for the ball at the perimeter and try to beat guys off the dribble, you can see the seperation. Wilt played in an undersized era but he was still the quickest most coordinated bigman ever. Shaq is incredible but Wilt the Stilt did was mythical

OutOfPlace

02-23-2008, 06:16 PM

Shawn Kemp was a power dunker and Vince was too to an extent. Jordan could fly and twist in the air like it was nothing. No one had the ability to hang in mid-air, take contact, and still thrown down a jam like MJ. Not to mention, his circus shots as well. Like I said before, athleticism is many different aspects. Just because Gerald Green can look down at the hoop on a dunk doesn't make him a better athlete than Michael Jordan.

I know that Jordan had unrivalled body control. But when it comes to pure explosiveness, strength, vertical leap, quickness, sprinting ability et cetera, there are guys far ahead of MJ. That isn't a knock on him by any stretch, he's my favourite player by a wide margin.

Make It Rain

02-23-2008, 06:20 PM

People always come into threads with biases. Hard to have a decent thread. But I'd have Shaq at the top of my list too. No way anyone that big could move like that. LeBron would be my #2.

White Chocolate

02-23-2008, 06:21 PM

I know that Jordan had unrivalled body control. But when it comes to pure explosiveness, strength, vertical leap, quickness, sprinting ability et cetera, there are guys far ahead of MJ. That isn't a knock on him by any stretch, he's my favourite player by a wide margin.

You're really underestimating MJ's athleticism. He dunked on bigger guys quite often, and his explosiveness is the reason. MJ is only 6'5" and he was throwing down those dunks easily. You're also underestimating his strength. The fact that he could take a hit and it barely phased him shows how strong he is. Gerald Green is not stronger than MJ. Gerald Green may be a tad faster, but MJ has him in everything else.

Bruinlove

02-23-2008, 06:22 PM

People always come into threads with biases. Hard to have a decent thread. But I'd have Shaq at the top of my list too. No way anyone that big could move like that. LeBron would be my #2.
Wilt could move better. He could handle the ball and break it up the court like a gaurd. When shaq gets the ball on the perimeter and tries to dribble, he does it like a joke.

Wilt was 320 pounds of pure muscle. Just because you've never seen it doesn't mean it's not true

otmtheshank

02-23-2008, 06:24 PM

Shaq, Dwight, LeBron...I agree with pretty much all of the names mentioned so far...Not sure if he's been mentioned yet, but I'll throw Sky Walker's name into the mix of honourable mentions.

Ha... I would have love to have seen him play. I'm sure he had no skills at all, but he was top 10 all time athletic for a Human being. Even at 6'2 he could have thrown down some wicked dunks...probably.

Donvan Bailey worked out for a NFL team and his 40 was a 3.68 or so. In NBA terms thats like having a 60' vert (in terms of standards of deviation better).
Mind he was also the world record holder and reigning fastest man alive at the time.

Bailey was insanely fast, and he and Lewis are both certainly freaks of nature, but I think that time's off by about a third of a second maybe. I'd guess probably around 4.0-4.1 during his prime as an athlete. Still remarkable though.

Kblaze8855

02-23-2008, 06:24 PM

I think people being so quick to list Jordan is a popularity thing. Does he deserve to be considereD? Of course. Is he clearly #1 all time in a size range that includes some downright godly contenders? Nah. Be hard to name a #1 in the small to mid sizes. Bigmen like Shaq, Wilt, Drob, Hakeem, and so on stand out more because the other players tend to be unathletic by these high standards.

At the swingman positions you have freaks everywhere. Just look at a guy like David Noel. About 6'5'' near the top of his draft in the bench press, with a 39 inch standing vertical, and great agility times. Or Ronnie Brewer. Inch taller than MJ but benched 185 20 times(a number many bigmen didnt), with a 41 inch vertical, 7 foot wingspan, and amazing agility and speed drills. Guys like them and Jeff Trepagnier, Rodney Rarney, and so on dont get considered as much because they are unknowns. Then you look at a guy like Tmac who is what....6'9''? In his youth he could fly, beat anyone on the first step, and had body control and agility to spare. Same for Vince Carter. Hes what without shoes? 6'5''? Jumping over 7' footers, catching windmills off lobs in game(im talking vs the Cavs not that Rucker park ****), making defenders look handicapped blowing by them like they are standing still. Jump out the gym off one or two feet. And his body control sometimes made him look like Gumby. And there are reports he could have been a legit world class high jumper and volleyball player. Lebron I dont think is as agile but he and MJ probably jump in the same range and hes 2 inches taller and like 40 pounds heavier than MJ at his athletic peak and may be stronger. And there are people in the league who consider him the fastest player they ever saw. In his second year I read David Thompson saying Lebron got up as high as hes ever seen a human get.

Yet MJ is without a doubt #1? Even if MJ is #1 there are dozens of guys right there with him. Hes in the wrong size range for a clear #1. Taller you get the easier it is to rank guys. 7'4'' and up its clearly Ralph Sampson(maybe also for 7'2'' and up). 7 and 7'1'' you only have like 3 real contenders. Shaq, Wilt, and Drob. 6'8'' to 6''11'' it gets hard again. By the time you get to 6'6'' you have legit olympic level athletes who just happen to be playing basketball. This isnt even considering all the scrubs with godly athletic ability who cant really play at all. Michael Wilson had a tested 51 inch vertical at memphs off a step. Ended up dunking for world records as a Globetrotter. Have guys like Melvin Levett and Marcus Haislip who are just monsters.

There is no easy to pick #1. Little of Jordans athletic ability is anything but speculation. He refused the vertical test. He came to be far stronger than he was as a rookie so its hard to judge. He might blow by people and get to the basket but a lot of it is great anticipation, reading defences, and simply being a great player.

Just physically...what his body would let him do skills aside...hes one of a lot of guys you have to list up there near the top. I dont see a way to seperate.

Make It Rain

02-23-2008, 06:25 PM

Wilt could move better. He could handle the ball and break it up the court like a gaurd. When shaq gets the ball on the perimeter and tries to dribble, he does it like a joke.

Wilt was 320 pounds of pure muscle. Just because you've never seen it doesn't mean it's not true
I disregard anything you say about Shaq considering you're a devoted (borderline homosexual) Kobe fan. And according to the book of rules of being a Kobe fan, you have to hate Shaq.

Loki

02-23-2008, 06:28 PM

-Jordan really wasn't that explosive. Jordan's dunks always looked smooth and elegant. He wasn't a great in-game dunker either... never really posterised anyone the way e.g. Vince can.

Right. That right there tells me all I need to know about what I'm dealing with... :oldlol:

-Gerald Green may not have the body control or strength of Jordan, but he has Jordan beat when it comes to length, explosiveness and leaping ability. GG routinely looks down into the basket when dunking.

No, he may have Jordan beat in terms of two-footed leaping. Length has nothing to do with athleticism, btw. And explosiveness? :oldlol: Jordan would go by Green and leave him flat-footed off a first step; can't say the same in reverse. Let's not even get started on body control, coordination, other aspects of leaping, speed/quickness etc.

-James White is an olympic caliber athlete who can touch the top of the backboard. That alone puts him in another stratosphere to Jordan.

No, it alone does not. Jordan could dunk from the FT line; White can dunk from slightly behind the line. Again, has James White ever dunked off two feet or a hop step? Didn't think so. White is also nowhere near as fast/quick/explosive as Jordan, and his body control is sh!t next to MJ's.

You're wrong. Deal with it. Like I said, prime Carter is probably the closest thing to Jordan athletically as an overall package -- better in some respects and worse in others. But these other clowns you're mentioning? Spare me. :oldlol:

Bruinlove

02-23-2008, 06:32 PM

I disregard anything you say about Shaq considering you're a devoted (borderline homosexual) Kobe fan. And according to the book of rules of being a Kobe fan, you have to hate Shaq.
Shaq is one of my favorite players. I like Kobe but I'm not one of those dude who takes everything he says as complete truth and thinks he's the best player ever. I hardly blindly follow Kobe, I'm more about the team than anything.

I'm glad where the team's at now but back then given the choice I would have got rid of Kobe and kept Shaq back then.
Shaq is a beast, and a freak, but then that will make Wilt Godzilla or something. He was just as big, about 2 inches taller, and a hell of alot more coordinated and better at running the court. The only argument against Wilt can be that he played in an undersized era, but the stuff he could do like leading the fast breaks are something Shaq could never even think about.

OutOfPlace

02-23-2008, 06:57 PM

Right. That right there tells me all I need to know about what I'm dealing with... :oldlol:

Hey, and I think I know who I'm dealing with, too - a Jordan jockrider.

No, he may have Jordan beat in terms of two-footed leaping. Length has nothing to do with athleticism, btw. And explosiveness? :oldlol: Jordan would go by Green and leave him flat-footed off a first step; can't say the same in reverse. Let's not even get started on body control, coordination, other aspects of leaping, speed/quickness etc.

Yeah, let's not get started on them. Because Gerald Green would frankly blow Jordan out of the water in everything other than coordination and body control.

No, it alone does not. Jordan could dunk from the FT line; White can dunk from slightly behind the line. Again, has James White ever dunked off two feet or a hop step? Didn't think so. White is also nowhere near as fast/quick/explosive as Jordan, and his body control is sh!t next to MJ's.

White isn't as explosive as Jordan, but he IS quicker and is a MUCH better leaper. Come back when you can produce evidence of Michael Jordan touching the top of the backboard.

You're wrong. Deal with it. Like I said, prime Carter is probably the closest thing to Jordan athletically as an overall package -- better in some respects and worse in others. But these other clowns you're mentioning? Spare me. :oldlol:

Sorry dude, Jordan just isn't as athletic as you want to believe. He had amazing body control and coordination, but when it comes to the whole package of leaping ability, strength, explosiveness, quickness, speed... guys like Lebron, Josh Smith, Vince Carter, Gerald Green and Rudy Gay are better than His Airness.

Loki

02-23-2008, 07:12 PM

Hey, and I think I know who I'm dealing with, too - a Jordan jockrider.

Right.

Yeah, let's not get started on them. Because Gerald Green would frankly blow Jordan out of the water in everything other than coordination and body control.

Where's the evidence? Green is Jordan's equal (and arguably his superior) in one aspect of athleticism: two-footed leaping. Period. That's it. In terms of one-footed leaping, leaping off a hop step, quickness, agility, explosiveness, end-to-end speed, coordination, and body control Jordan sh!ts on him from a great height.

I can't even believe that I'm discussing whether Gerald freaking Green is a better overall athlete than Michael Jordan. Get outta here, kid. :oldlol:

White isn't as explosive as Jordan, but he IS quicker

White quicker than Jordan? :oldlol: Do you even know what quickness means?

and is a MUCH better leaper.

Off of one foot...

And even there, the difference isn't orders of magnitude or anything; again, off one foot Jordan could dunk from the FT line while White can dunk from slightly past it. Yeah, huge difference there, especially considering that White was an inch taller. :rolleyes:

And, like the Gerald Green situation, Jordan takes a steaming dump on him in every other respect athletically. There's no comparison.

Come back when you can produce evidence of Michael Jordan touching the top of the backboard.

LOL @ thinking White touhed the top of the backboard. :oldlol:

White got to about 12'8"-12'9" or so off a (here's that term again) one-footed leap. That's what the youtube video SHOWED as opposed to what you fantasized about. Jordan could get his entire hand above the box on the backboard (and this was during his rookie year; his leaping only got better over the next few seasons), and his hand was about 9.5"-9.8" long. So that would put him touching about 12'7". Big freaking difference, there.

Sorry dude, Jordan just isn't as athletic as you want to believe. He had amazing body control and coordination, but when it comes to the whole package of leaping ability, strength, explosiveness, quickness, speed... guys like Lebron, Josh Smith, Vince Carter, Gerald Green and Rudy Gay are better than His Airness.

Sure. LOL @ the names in bold, btw. At least the other two are/were actually tremendous athletes OVERALL, unlike the clowns in bold (or Gerald Green, for that matter).

You have no idea what you're talking about. Gerald Green he says... :roll:

Valliant13

02-23-2008, 07:17 PM

Shaq, Dwight, LeBron...I agree with pretty much all of the names mentioned so far...Not sure if he's been mentioned yet, but I'll throw Sky Walker's name into the mix of honourable mentions.

Bailey was insanely fast, and he and Lewis are both certainly freaks of nature, but I think that time's off by about a third of a second maybe. I'd guess probably around 4.0-4.1 during his prime as an athlete. Still remarkable though.

Yeah I'm going off memory and what he stated himself...so it may have been an exaggeration. You likely right here, I researched some of his 50m split times and 3.7 second would be absurdly fast even for him.

OutOfPlace

02-23-2008, 07:24 PM

Where's the evidence? Green is Jordan's equal (and arguably his superior) in one aspect of athleticism: two-footed leaping. Period. That's it. In terms of one-footed leaping, leaping off a hop step, quickness, agility, explosiveness, end-to-end speed, coordination, and body control Jordan sh!ts on him from a great height.

Jordan more explosive than Green? Get outta here! :roll:

Green is taller, longer, faster, a better leaper and more explosive than Jordan. I'm afraid Jordan doesn't even come close to this kind of explosive athleticism. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_1Th0ASIr1Q

White quicker than Jordan? :oldlol: Do you even know what quickness means?

Yep, White is quicker than Jordan. Though admittedly he is alot thinner.

Off of one foot...

And even there, the difference isn't orders of magnitude or anything; again, off one foot Jordan could dunk from the FT line while White can dunk from slightly past it. Yeah, huge difference there. :rolleyes:

James White can get his chin over the rim. Jordan couldn't even get the top his skull there. That's a pretty freakin' huge difference kid. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_1Th0ASIr1Q

And, like the Gerald Green situation, Jordan takes a steaming dump on him in every other respect athletically. There's no comparison.

Yeah, except James White is an olympic level athlete, while Jordan never was.

White got to about 12'8"-12'9" or so off a (here's that term again) one-footed leap. That's what the youtube video SHOWED as opposed to what you fantasized about. Jordan could get his entire hand above the box on the backboard, and his hand was about 9.5"-9.8" long. So that would put him touching about 12'7". Big freaking difference, there.

:roll:

White has stated himself that he can touch the top of the backboard on a good day. You can fantasize all you like about Jordan coming close to that kind of leaping ability, but it isn't reality. :oldlol:

Sure. LOL @ the names in bold, btw. At least the other two are/were actually tremendous athletes OVERALL, unlike the clowns in bold (or Gerald Green, for that matter).

Josh Smith, Gerald Green, Rudy Gay > Jordan OVERALL.

Loki

02-23-2008, 07:33 PM

Younggrease

02-23-2008, 07:38 PM

as far as bball athletism James White isnt even in this discussion, he cant change directions, cannot use his jumping ability in game situations and his body control leaves much to be desired

this will give you a sense of Jordans athletism...does Green or White have the body control, or ability to change direction to pull this stuff off...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tWvxijHNWB4

raiderfan19

02-23-2008, 10:54 PM

Yeah I'm going off memory and what he stated himself...so it may have been an exaggeration. You likely right here, I researched some of his 50m split times and 3.7 second would be absurdly fast even for him.
there has never been anyone who ran below a 4.0

VCMVP1551

02-23-2008, 11:10 PM

Put through a set of athletic tests id be suprised if MJ came out #1 all time. Didnt a coach say Vince Carter had in all around numbers the greatest pre draft of all time?

Off the top of my head for Vince's pre-draft stats I know

Height w/o shoes: 6'5.5"
Height w/ shoes: 6'6.75"
Weight: 219
Wingspan: 7'0"
Standing Vertical: 36 inches
Max Vertical: 43 inches

I don't know his results for any of the other tests though.

raid09

02-24-2008, 12:36 AM

I disregard anything you say about Shaq considering you're a devoted (borderline homosexual) Kobe fan. And according to the book of rules of being a Kobe fan, you have to hate Shaq.

Ahaha, that made me laugh.

1. Wilt
2. Shaq
3. LeBron

Loki, I haven't read all of your posts, but you seem to think no swing man is on MJ's level athletically. You don't think LeBron is right there (not in basketball skill, but sheer athleticism)?

Loki

02-24-2008, 12:51 AM

Ahaha, that made me laugh.

1. Wilt
2. Shaq
3. LeBron

Loki, I haven't read all of your posts, but you seem to think no swing man is on MJ's level athletically. You don't think LeBron is right there (not in basketball skill, but sheer athleticism)?

If you'll note, I haven't mentioned Lebron in any of my posts. Lebron is an all-time level athlete who may overall be a better athlete than Jordan when you consider his size. The difference in size between him and Jordan makes it difficult to compare; not so for guys like Drexler, VC, Kobe, Dr. J etc., who are all basically the same size.

I think Lebron is comparable to Jordan in some areas (one-footed leaping, end-to-end speed), superior in some areas (strength), and worse to varying degrees in other areas (lateral quickness, body control, explosiveness). However, considering his size, the fact that he's comparable or better in so many areas (while not being too far behind in the others), makes him perhaps a better overall athlete.

But I do believe that Jordan had the best overall basketball athleticism for any swingman in history, yes. As an aside, one aspect of athletic gifts that is often overlooked is reflexes. When Jordan tried his little baseball experiment during his first retirement, he was tested by a professional athletic tester/trainer on this eye-hand reflex/concentration/response time test. Anyway, this trainer had tested hundreds of professional athletes (including many all-stars) in all the major sports (MLB, NBA etc.). A score of 105 indicated a superior performance, and the best score he had seen in his 15+ years was a 115. Jordan had something like a 140 -- he just completely obliterated everyone else by such a margin that this tester was shocked. He said that it demonstrated an almost superhuman reaction time and coordination, but more importantly a tremendous ability to concentrate. Just an interesting tidbit that few people know about. It's in one of the Jordan books I have.

Raindrops

02-24-2008, 01:52 AM

VCMVP1551

02-24-2008, 02:19 AM

If you'll note, I haven't mentioned Lebron in any of my posts. Lebron is an all-time level athlete who may overall be a better athlete than Jordan when you consider his size. The difference in size between him and Jordan makes it difficult to compare; not so for guys like Drexler, VC, Kobe, Dr. J etc., who are all basically the same size.

Exactly Lebron is much bigger than Jordan, Kobe, VC, T-Mac, Drexler, ect. so even if Lebron had equal speed, quickness, hangtime, jumping ability ect. he wouldn't be an equal athlete he'd be a better athlete.

Kblaze8855

02-24-2008, 02:46 AM

As an aside, one aspect of athletic gifts that is often overlooked is reflexes. When Jordan tried his little baseball experiment during his first retirement, he was tested by a professional athletic tester/trainer on this eye-hand reflex/concentration/response time test. Anyway, this trainer had tested hundreds of professional athletes (including many all-stars) in all the major sports (MLB, NBA etc.). A score of 105 indicated a superior performance, and the best score he had seen in his 15+ years was a 115. Jordan had something like a 140 -- he just completely obliterated everyone else by such a margin that this tester was shocked. He said that it demonstrated an almost superhuman reaction time and coordination, but more importantly a tremendous ability to concentrate. Just an interesting tidbit that few people know about. It's in one of the Jordan books I have.

Im not sure reflexes of that type arent a mental thing. Or about 50/50.

Anyway Jordan has a lot of little things like that. He kinda has that total package that makes him perfect for his sport like Lance Armstrong. Genetic gifts and a mental toughness thats hard to really explain.

Loki

02-24-2008, 02:48 AM

Exactly Lebron is much bigger than Jordan, Kobe, VC, T-Mac, Drexler, ect. so even if Lebron had equal speed, quickness, hangtime, jumping ability ect. he wouldn't be an equal athlete he'd be a better athlete.

Yes, he would be...if he had equal quickness, hangtime, body control etc. I think he has it in some areas and not in some others. The result is a guy who is as good an athlete as anyone who has ever played, but not necessarily a better athlete.

raid09

02-24-2008, 02:57 AM

Yes, he would be...if he had equal quickness, hangtime, body control etc. I think he has it in some areas and not in some others. The result is a guy who is as good an athlete as anyone who has ever played, but not necessarily a better athlete.

Well, clearly it is impossible to say "this athlete is the best one that has ever played the game of basketball." There is a separate tier that encompasses players like Jordan, LeBron, Wilt, Shaq, etc.

VeeCee15

02-24-2008, 07:30 AM

VC is the most atheletic swingman ever.

In his rookie tests, he was TOP throughout the charts except in one category.

He can jump higher than Jordan...he can even jump better off 1 foot.

He has a better first step than Jordan. Early in VC's career, he rarely used any kind of crossover to get by his man..lots of first step action.

VC is the most beastly athlete at 6'6-6'8.

Just because he is at times unmotivated does not mean that purely, in an abstract physical level, he is a beast.

VC is strong as ***** too...when he was with the raptors the trainers said he was bench pressing what some POWER FORWARDS struggle with, without breaking any sweat.

Lebron? Overrated @ss athlete. He cannot jump super high. He is just an amazing player.

VeeCee15

02-24-2008, 07:31 AM

GOAT:MANU

02-24-2008, 09:07 AM

Loki

02-24-2008, 12:13 PM

He can jump higher than Jordan...he can even jump better off 1 foot.

He most certainly cannot. :oldlol:

He has a better first step than Jordan.

:oldlol:

Wow...

Valliant13

02-24-2008, 12:38 PM

Lebron? Overrated @ss athlete. He cannot jump super high. He is just an amazing player.

l.

Uh...Lebron is one of the best pure athletes in the history of sports. I don't even no how to respond to someone who thinks he's a poor athlete.It's just crazy talk. To have his kind of size and strength, with his speed, co-ordination, agility, and explosiveness... is so genetically improbable it's hard to quantify.

He was physically ready to play in the NBA when he was 17 years old.

Unreal Skill

02-24-2008, 12:45 PM

I can't believe no one has mention Charles Barkley. He was huge, strong, quick, and explosive. All in one compact 6'4-6'5 frame.

And I also heard Len Bias was a freak. Supposedly more physical gifted than Jordan or almost anyone else.

OutOfPlace

02-24-2008, 06:17 PM

Why are you posting a video of dunks when talking about explosiveness? Explosiveness is acceleration (first step, changing speeds etc.).

LOL @ "James White himself said" -- yeah, of course he "said." :oldlol:

You have no clue what you're talking about if you maintain that Gerald Green is more athletic OVERALL than Michael Jordan. No clue. It's not worth arguing over. I got a kick out of the claim that White is quicker than Jordan, btw. Great stuff. :roll:

The speed at which you elevate off the ground is a good measure of explosiveness. Green explodes off the ground, Jordan didn't.

Oh yeah, James White said he had touched 13ft in college athletic tests. I highly doubt that he was lying. Jordan could never come close to that kind of athletic feat.

Loki

02-24-2008, 06:23 PM

The speed at which you elevate off the ground is a good measure of explosiveness. Green explodes off the ground, Jordan didn't.

You're talking about something entirely different than I am. I am using "explosiveness" in the sense of "acceleration" (i.e., first step, changing speeds etc.). Green isn't in Jordan's stratosphere in this regard.

Oh yeah, James White said he had touched 13ft in college athletic tests. I highly doubt that he was lying. Jordan could never come close to that kind of athletic feat.

Oh sure -- I mean, James White wouldn't lie. :oldlol: And again, the youtube video shows White touching roughly 12'8"-12'9", while Jordan could touch roughly 12"6"-12'7". How is that a world of difference? Especially when White is an inch or so taller.

Fact: Neither White, nor Green, nor Rudy Gay are anywhere near as athletic as Jordan was. That you would even suggest they are is a joke in and of itself.

Make It Rain

02-24-2008, 06:24 PM

James White cannot touch the top of the backboard. That's a myth. No NBA player can. Even Dwight Howard can't.

White Chocolate

02-24-2008, 06:40 PM

James White cannot touch the top of the backboard. That's a myth. No NBA player can. Even Dwight Howard can't.

That rumor has been around for years. Some said Clyde Drexler could touch 13', some said David Thompson could, some even said Kareem Abdul-Jabbar could.

OutOfPlace

02-24-2008, 06:45 PM

You're talking about something entirely different than I am. I am using "explosiveness" in the sense of "acceleration" (i.e., first step, changing speeds etc.). Green isn't in Jordan's stratosphere in this regard.

Well, if we're talking first step then Jordan was up there with the best of them, though Green isn't exactly a slouch here either. As for changing speed and changing directions, Kobe and Vince do that quicker than MJ ever could.

Oh sure -- I mean, James White wouldn't lie. :oldlol: And again, the youtube video shows White touching roughly 12'8"-12'9", while Jordan could touch roughly 12"6"-12'7". How is that a world of difference? Especially when White is an inch or so taller.

First off, James White touched AT LEAST 12'10 in the video. As for touching the top of the backboard, his comment:

"I've never actually done it, per se. But doing the vertical test at the University of Cincinnati, I've touched as high as the top of the backboard."

http://myespn.go.com/blogs/truehoop/0-29-24/James-White-vs--a-Jumping-Myth.html

Oh, and I'm still waiting for evidence to suggest that Jordan could even come close to touching 12'7. Dwight is 6'10 with a 40 inch vertical and his highest touch is 12'6.

Samurai Swoosh

02-24-2008, 06:46 PM

Shawn Kemp ... in more ways than one. Marv Albert was a freak, too. Panty house wearing ass.

Loki

02-24-2008, 08:11 PM

Well, if we're talking first step then Jordan was up there with the best of them, though Green isn't exactly a slouch here either. As for changing speed and changing directions, Kobe and Vince do that quicker than MJ ever could.

:roll: :roll:

Oh, and I'm still waiting for evidence to suggest that Jordan could even come close to touching 12'7. Dwight is 6'10 with a 40 inch vertical and his highest touch is 12'6.

Jordan's rookie year coach said that Jordan could get his entire hand over the square on the backboard. Jordan's hand has been measured at 9.6-9.8" from bottom to top. Do the math.

The Answer

02-24-2008, 08:52 PM

Dwight is 6'10 with a 40 inch vertical and his highest touch is 12'6.

I assume you're getting that 12'6" from his sticker dunk. Keep in mind, though, that he wasn't focusing only on touching the highest point possible since he had to catch and dunk the ball. Also, don't forget that, when he placed the sticker on the backboard, he had to bend his arm at a slight angle in order to prevent from plastering himself against the backboard. With those two things in mind, I'm confident he could come just as close, if not closer, than White if he was just trying to touch a bar extending from the top of the backboard.

VCMVP1551

02-24-2008, 09:19 PM

I assume your getting that 12'6" from his sticker dunk. Keep in mind, though, that he wasn't focusing only on touching the highest point possible since he had to catch and dunk the ball. Also, don't forget that, when he placed the sticker on the backboard, he had to bend his arm at a slight angle in order to prevent from plastering himself against the backboard. With those two things in mind, I'm confident he could come just as close, if not closer, than White if he was just trying to touch a bar extending from the top of the backboard.

Yeah in reality Dwight could probably touch 12'9 if he wanted to see how high he could touch.

AznBBoyX

02-24-2008, 11:16 PM

Jordan more explosive than Green? Get outta here! :roll:

Green is taller, longer, faster, a better leaper and more explosive than Jordan. I'm afraid Jordan doesn't even come close to this kind of explosive athleticism. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_1Th0ASIr1Q

Yep, White is quicker than Jordan. Though admittedly he is alot thinner.

James White can get his chin over the rim. Jordan couldn't even get the top his skull there. That's a pretty freakin' huge difference kid. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_1Th0ASIr1Q

Yeah, except James White is an olympic level athlete, while Jordan never was.

:roll:

White has stated himself that he can touch the top of the backboard on a good day. You can fantasize all you like about Jordan coming close to that kind of leaping ability, but it isn't reality. :oldlol:

Josh Smith, Gerald Green, Rudy Gay > Jordan OVERALL.

http://myespn.go.com/blogs/truehoop/0-29-24/James-White-vs--a-Jumping-Myth.html

Nice article on there is no documented evidence that anyone can touch the top of the backboard. Of course there are always stories of people producing the feat but until it's documented, James White can't do it. I also heard Vince Carter left a hand print on the top of the backboard during draft workouts at Toronto. Paul Pierce went in later and asked who's handprint that was and they told him it was Vince's. Pierce couldn't believe it.

Oh yea, Gerald Green is taller than Jordan. Even if he could jump higher than Jordan, Jordan beats him in speed, strength, quickness, body control, hand eye coordination, and everything else. So don't even start with this Green is more athletic than Jordan crap. Kids nowadays think hops is the only testament to athleticism.

Also lots of people saying how there are plenty of short players as fast as Iverson. Hell no. They might be fast, but not Iverson fast. The press had to get cameras with faster shutter speeds when he came into the league.

In my opinion, Shaq is the biggest freak in NBA history. Strength is a part of athleticism. With his quickness, length, strength...he's definitely the biggest anomaly in my book.

VCMVP1551

02-24-2008, 11:21 PM

In my opinion, Shaq is the biggest freak in NBA history. Strength is a part of athleticism. With his quickness, length, strength...he's definitely the biggest anomaly in my book.

Yeah look at this description of Shaq from a 1992 draft article.

Shaq already has a reach of 9-5 and an armspan of 7-7. He's a good leaper, too, and can touch a point on the backboard almost two-and-a-half feet above the rim.

The guy is a legit 7'1" without shoes and he has been well over 300 pounds yet he had a vertical leap of atleast 35 inches.

Kblaze8855

02-25-2008, 03:51 AM

He most certainly cannot.

Vince is one of those guys its hard to judge there. Hes done few dunks on a big scale to show his one foot leaping but ive seen gifs of him in practice doing dunks from behind the FT line(a little) and bending his elbow fully behind his head and dunking with plenty of room to spare. No stretching.

Jordan strictly as a leaper is nothing that unusual. A whole lot of people can get up in the 40s and while some cant go off one or two like him some beat him in one or the other. Can probably find a few hundred people who can rise like him. At least. Jordans quickness is probably more unusual than his jumping. For his size I mean. I think Jordan peaked overall as an athlete around 91 or 92. By then he didnt jump like he used to but he was stronger than he used to be by a wider margin than his hops and speed had declined.

I really think its hard to say Jordan blows the guys mentioned away though. We are talking about guys who are probaly in the top .05% of humanity and maybe Jordan is top .04 or something.

Gerald Green might not have the quickness MJ does but that kid can rise. One foot or two. Ive seen him headlevel off two, bang on people after a hop step, and take off from great distance. He was measured with like a 39 inch standing vertical and on the run is no doubt up in the 40s. If MJ beat him in a race(as I suspect he would) its not gonna be by miles. Maybe Green is a bad example there though. Ive not seen much of his straight line speed.

Overall if MJ is ahead of guys like Green, Josh Smith, and so on its in the way a gold medal winning sprinter is ahead of 5th place. It might be a significant difference to those who know the sport but to the naked eye without cameras its near impossible to see.

Jordans advantage in strength came mostly when hed lost any edge in hops over these guys. I know even young MJ was probably stronger than plenty of swingmen with his hops but really...he was like 6'6'' 190 or a little more at his leaping and quickness peak. Kinda frail.

By the time he was built up and at the strength I suspect Lebron is I doubt he had that same vertical he had in the 80s or the speed. He was probably still quicker though.

Hes my favorite player of all time but I think its a skills and will thing more than his physical ability. Hes ahead of the comp in those by more than he is physically. There are hundreds if not thousands of tall guys with bounce and speed but they dont have the talent or workethic to be what he was. Him being so great an overall player sometimes gets the aspects that made him up a little overrated.

He might be the best total package as a player but he doesnt have to be the best at every little thing does he?

VeeCee15

02-25-2008, 06:00 AM

why was Carter labelled ONLY a dunker in his earlier years?

That was the gripe against him; and I do not see Shaq getting those criticisms.

Carter was LABELLED as only a dunker because he could get to the hoop and flush it down.

And how did he get to the hoop? His handles? Yes sometimes but it was mostly on his first STEP blow by of people. It is almost skilless and that's why he was criticized for only being a dunker.

VC has done more impressive FT line dunks than MJ. I do not give a *** about how MJs FT line dunk looks in SLOW MOTION. The actual execution of his dunk is not that hard..he did a .00001 second micro pump that only looked good in slow mo.

VC has done a much harder (technically) FT dunk in highschool where he brought the ball way back..and he did an amazing FT line dunk in a Toronto Practice where he brought the ball back 90 degrees and flushed it with ease. JORDAN cannot do that.

You can talk all day about Jordan's FT line dunk looking graceful and ***** (in slow motion) but VC's FT line dunks (the one's u guys probably haven't seen) requires MORE hops and body control to pull off.

VeeCee15

02-25-2008, 06:04 AM

Dwight can out jump Lebron.

It is no MYSTERY why Lebron has yet to join a slam dunk contest

It is also no MYSTERY why Dwight got the biggest cheers in the olympic practices on his dunks and not lebron.

Lebron is a lesser leaper than Gerald Green. He is definately stronger by far and has much more skill.

It is ridiculous how many people fail to separate ATHLETICISM and SKILL and more often than not, tie the two together while making an argument for athleticism.

stax

02-25-2008, 07:38 AM

i read an interview with spud webb once and he said he was dunking when he was 4'11". all with natural leaping ability (ie no specific plyometric training)

KWALI

02-25-2008, 11:46 AM

AI is a freak becuz of his endurance not his speed......he is relentless..he's been tested and has been off the charts in terms of endurance.

UMDWizKid

02-25-2008, 12:15 PM

Can't believe that this thread has gone on for 10 pages with no mention of this guy:

http://img475.imageshack.us/img475/6668/magicjohnsonlegendofthenq3.jpg

VCMVP1551

02-25-2008, 12:16 PM

Can't believe that this thread has gone on for 10 pages with no mention of this guy:

http://img475.imageshack.us/img475/6668/magicjohnsonlegendofthenq3.jpg

Magic is a top 5 player of all time but as far as being a physical freak of nature. He is not one. Lebron is bigger and handles the ball like a point guard too.

OutOfPlace

02-25-2008, 12:19 PM

Magic? Please. He wasn't much more athletic than Larry Bird.

Valliant13

02-25-2008, 12:20 PM

AI is a freak becuz of his endurance not his speed......he is relentless..he's been tested and has been off the charts in terms of endurance.

Yep. His is V02 max is off the charts...and this is a guy that doesn't work that much on conditioning. He's more of Lance Armstrong freak, than elite leaper type.

XxNeXuSxX

02-25-2008, 01:00 PM

Hakeem was every bit as athletic and quick as Drob...he was actually faster than Robinson.....

I'd appreciate it if you would put down the crack before you posted.

OutOfPlace

02-25-2008, 01:37 PM

^Hakeem wasn't as fast as Robinson end to end, but he was a helluva lot quicker. Robinson always looked mechanical when moving side to side and changing directions. Hakeem didn't.

Knine

02-25-2008, 01:39 PM

I definitely think that Jordan has to be in this discussion. His hang time and aerial acrobatics popularized the NBA. Vince should be in this. Dwight Howard and Lebron I mos def agree with.

XxNeXuSxX

02-25-2008, 01:44 PM

^Hakeem wasn't as fast as Robinson end to end, but he was a helluva lot quicker. Robinson always looked mechanical when moving side to side and changing directions. Hakeem didn't.
Hakeem was a much better one on one post player, that's a given. But Robinson was MUCH stronger, MUCH more athletic, and a LOT faster. That's really not debatable. Hakeem might have had "quicker" post moves and been more effective, but that's not the question.

OutOfPlace

02-25-2008, 01:47 PM

Hakeem was a much better one on one post player, that's a given. But Robinson was MUCH stronger, MUCH more athletic, and a LOT faster. That's really not debatable. Hakeem might have had "quicker" post moves and been more effective, but that's not the question.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uBrEsNS9zKg

:confusedshrug:

XxNeXuSxX

02-25-2008, 01:54 PM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uBrEsNS9zKg

:confusedshrug:
:confusedshrug: So you showed Hakeem is athletic, awesome. I knew this after watching the 90s. I'm saying David Robinson, a legit 7'0, is a top 5 Freak athlete ever.

OutOfPlace

02-25-2008, 01:57 PM

^Robinson could only jump and move as quickly as Hakeem in his dreams. Oh, and both Shaq and Moses Malone said that Hakeem was the strongest player they had ever faced.

UMDWizKid

02-25-2008, 02:00 PM

^Robinson could only jump and move as quickly as Hakeem in his dreams. Oh, and both Shaq and Moses Malone said that Hakeem was the strongest player they had ever faced.

I could have sworn that Shaq said that Sabonis was the strongest player he ever faced. And didn't Moses Malone play against Artis Gilmore? He was definitely stronger then Hakeem. The Dream's game was more finesse, and less power.

XxNeXuSxX

02-25-2008, 02:03 PM

Hakeem the strongest player ever? Uh, I don't think so. His game was based on a diverse game of unpredictable plethora of post moves, he was never known for bowling over defenders. I mean a simple picture could tell you he's nowhere the near the strength of Karl or Drob.

XxNeXuSxX

02-25-2008, 02:03 PM

^Robinson could only jump and move as quickly as Hakeem in his dreams.
I don't ever remember this, could you provide a link?

Keep in mind Hakeem is 6'9...

OutOfPlace

02-25-2008, 02:13 PM

Well, Shaq and Malone BOTH said that Hakeem was the strongest guy they had ever went up against. That has to count for something. If you look at his physique, he had MUCH stronger legs than DRob. Oh yeah, and Hakeem was a legit 6'10, shorter than DRob, but he might have had a longer wingspan. Watch the video in the link I provided earlier for an example of how athletic/quick Olajuwon was.

VCMVP1551

02-25-2008, 02:14 PM

I don't ever remember this, could you provide a link?

Keep in mind Hakeem is 6'9...

What are you talking about Hakeem is a little over 6'10" without shoes which is pretty much average size for a center. Short compared to 7'0" Robinson or 7'1" Shaq but still big.

XxNeXuSxX

02-25-2008, 02:24 PM

What are you talking about Hakeem is a little over 6'10" without shoes which is pretty much average size for a center. Short compared to 7'0" Robinson or 7'1" Shaq but still big.

:rolleyes: I went on something I heard from Marv Albert, okay 6'10, not 6'9 (Was that worth correcting?). The point was it's not unusual for the smaller center to be "quicker" in the post.

XxNeXuSxX

02-25-2008, 02:31 PM

Well, Shaq and Malone BOTH said that Hakeem was the strongest guy they had ever went up against.
Okay I'd definitely like to see a quote of this, but it seems pretty simple to me that these two fellows were easily stronger than Hakeem. I mean quite easily. I can't find a photo of legs, but I'm pretty sure Drob and malone were much better built there as well. Someone told me Malone had an insane squat.

http://www.makingpages.org/hoops/maloneelbowsrobinson.jpg

VCMVP1551

02-25-2008, 02:31 PM

:rolleyes: I went on something I heard from Marv Albert, okay 6'10, not 6'9 (Was that worth correcting?). The point was it's not unusual for the smaller center to be "quicker" in the post.

Hakeem really isn't that small. He is almost 7 feet in shoes and most NBA Heights are in shoes but if you are talking quick freaks of nature then how about KG. He is almost 7 feet without shoes and as quick as any big man I've seen. Or how about Shaq who is a legit 7'1", 330 pounds and fast as hell for a big man.

Shaq's quickness
http://youtube.com/watch?v=3P0j9IZItSI

http://youtube.com/watch?v=R6vmwGwlq1Q

http://youtube.com/watch?v=wL6CYWJcx_I

http://youtube.com/watch?v=6pqww6GBHcE

http://youtube.com/watch?v=Bq63G0DUYh8

mjbulls23

04-06-2008, 07:09 AM

I definitely think that Jordan has to be in this discussion. His hang time and aerial acrobatics popularized the NBA. Vince should be in this. Dwight Howard and Lebron I mos def agree with.

+1 :pimp:

dave520

04-23-2008, 07:30 PM

Good thread.

Interesting views some people are putting forth, a lot of them I find ridiculous.

Ive seen a post or two talking about Vince Carter and Shaq being able to lift ridiculous amounts of weight by most standards, in the bench press (as if the bench press is the God of all strength tests, and as if that made much of a difference anyway). I almost spit my coffee reading someone write Shaq was benching 450lbs. As a former powerlifter, I will tell you Shaq isnt benching anywhere close to that weight, and Ive read a few times that he was very weak in the gym, only getting up to 250lbs, where as much smaller players were stronger in that exercise than him (which makes sense, seeing that tall people with long wingspans usually struggle in the bench press by simple physiology, but thats another topic).

I myself dont see Jordan as a real physical phenom or freak of nature physically, but I definitely see him there on a mental level, probably beyond anyone in the history of the game, maybe top 3 in sports athletes EVER. Jordan's true strength came from his ability to will his body beyond normal capabilities and mind-screw opponents into virtual submission.

Some of my top freaks or athletic phenoms include:

Ralph Sampson: Hardly anything mentioned about this 7'4 inch small foward in a centers body. A man whos probably the most dominant college player the past 30 years, who could pass, score, shoot, dribble, and defend players of virtually any size at a towering Mark Eaton'ish height is beyond any center we've seen since his arrival in the early 80's. Unfortunately, like most beyond tall centers, his body gave in before his mind.

David Robinson: The most pure athletic big man in the history of the league, with the possible exception of Wilt. A college gymnast/basketball player who could run the court like a point guard, quickness of small foward and could jump out of the building, if need be. (yes he was much faster than Olajuwan, and anyone who says otherwise is smoking some good ****... obviously Hakeem was the superior player without real dispute, but he wasnt near the athlete David was).

Shaq As much as I dislike Shaq, he is unquestionably the first of his type the league has ever seen. The biggest, "basketball strongest" player EVER, Shaq, for his size was an absolute monster in every aspect of the word in his first 12 years in the league. The first truly unguardable center since Wilt (and wilt had very little overall competition other than a select few, all of whom he was much taller/longer than) For some reason people think Wilt was stronger, and could hold Shaq... are you nucking futs? Seriously. Shaq would push wilt around like a rag doll and posterize him like every other center in the league in his prime. There is no question Shaq was lazy, but he was the first of his kind and we probably wont see anyone like him again for many, many years.

D-Howard A big man winning the slam dunk contest. Kissing the rim. The athletic ability of David Robinson, scoring ability of an Olajuwan, strength of a karl malone. Watch out. This kid is going to own the center position in years to come.

Jasper

04-23-2008, 07:49 PM

My freak list -

Mureasan
Manute Bol
Shawn Bradley
Yao Ming

Barkley

mugsy B.
Nate the Skate
Nate Robinson
Watson
Bokin
Cassell

Coachs -
Phil Jackson
VonGundy
Red Aurbach
Fats Brown

Cheerleaders -
Sonics

Fans -
Bulls

parkerclay

07-13-2008, 01:14 PM

Loki,

Where can I find a copy of this info? Do you remember the book?

Thanks,
Clay

highwhey

07-13-2008, 03:36 PM

Amare Stoudemire...same vertical as Dwight. One of the fastest big man, very agile, incredible strength...etc. Oh and he's just 1" shorter than Dwight.

VCMVP1551

07-13-2008, 04:32 PM

D-Howard A big man winning the slam dunk contest. Kissing the rim. The athletic ability of David Robinson, scoring ability of an Olajuwan, strength of a karl malone. Watch out. This kid is going to own the center position in years to come.

Howard has nowhere near the scoring ability of Hakeem

detsportsfan3

07-13-2008, 04:49 PM

Chris Bosh looks like a dinosaur. If that counts for anything....

jernejtera

07-13-2008, 04:55 PM

Chris Bosh looks like a dinosaur. If that counts for anything....
:roll::roll:

ShamRockStar

07-13-2008, 05:37 PM

David Robinson was a hell of an athlete. The Air Force Academy gives physical tests, and he finished first in his class at gymnastics at 6'7" as a freshman. His coach once said the Spurs could not have practice if Robinson walked from Foul line to Foul line on his hands, and he did it with ease.

Dominique Wilkins has to be up there, ahead of Vince for sure. He had the leaping ability, quickness, but his power was sick. He would not absorb body contact, he would deliver beatings while dunking, the defender would be on the ground in pain afterwards, lol.

Also, what about Spud Webb?

Niquesports

01-17-2011, 04:30 PM

Yeah and of course there is the famous series winning shot vs the Lakers in 86'. Kind of like a 7'4" Kevin Garnett.
Threads that say "greatest in history" yet only mention players of this era puzzle me. When ever stats are talked about younger people wanna say they were inflated back then. Well people in general have gotten bigger and stronger than in the 60's so todays players sizes are inflated.

Elgin Baylor was just as much a freak as Lebron is today. No one had ever seen a guy that big that strong and the ability to play over the rim . His hang time was amazing.Elgin is considered the Godfather of vertical basketball.

Connie Hawkins was a much better all around athlete than KG

George Milkan the father of big athletic men.

Players today have every advantage to improve their athleticism all the way to the shoes. But in these players era they were equally as freakish.

So next time people wanna post any thing as Greatest in history make sure you study the history.

blablabla

01-17-2011, 04:44 PM

Dennis Rodman

clipps

01-17-2011, 04:54 PM

Can you imagine if Shaq was not lazy and he had himself in great shape every year, he was able to shoot 75% from the line with a consistent 15-20 foot jumpshot?

sh0wtime

01-17-2011, 04:56 PM

Pretty much how i would rank em but i would exchange KG with Michael Jordan, has there ever been a more athletic guy at his size?

Sakkreth

01-17-2011, 05:03 PM

Sam Cassel.

OmniStrife

01-17-2011, 05:04 PM

Can you imagine if Shaq was not lazy and he had himself in great shape every year, he was able to shoot 75% from the line with a consistent 15-20 foot jumpshot?
*head explodes*

Niquesports

01-17-2011, 05:06 PM

Pretty much how i would rank em but i would exchange KG with Michael Jordan, has there ever been a more athletic guy at his size?
YOu tube David Thompson. Jordan is to DT what Kobe is to Jordan.

ShaqAttack3234

01-17-2011, 05:06 PM

Can you imagine if Shaq was not lazy and he had himself in great shape every year, he was able to shoot 75% from the line with a consistent 15-20 foot jumpshot?

75% from the line might've made him the undisputed best player ever, IMO, but a 15-20 foot jumper would not make him more effective because it's a lower percentage shot than his game 10 feet and in and also does less as far as demoralizing teams and wearing them down physically.

Niquesports

01-17-2011, 05:09 PM

75% from the line might've made him the undisputed best player ever, IMO, but a 15-20 foot jumper would not make him more effective because it's a lower percentage shot than his game 10 feet and in and also does less as far as demoralizing teams and wearing them down physically.

Thanks Shaq ,why do this era of basketball "fans" want a big man of Shaq's size 20 feet from the basket shooting ? IF I was a coach and a team ran plays for Shaq 15-20 ft from the bakset I would let him shoot that shot every time.

bluechox2

01-17-2011, 05:19 PM

SHAQ
YAo

NoGunzJustSkillz

01-17-2011, 05:20 PM

http://www.thetallestman.com/images/jorgegonzalez/jorgegonzalez%20(18).jpg

Yung D-Will

01-17-2011, 05:28 PM

http://www.insidesocal.com/tomhoffarth/360312.jpg

HB40TheNextStar

01-17-2011, 06:12 PM

The fact that Shaq didn't develop a jump shot made him greater. It's natural for someone to start relying on a jumper, and Shaq was just unstoppable on the block.

Free throws, well that's something a high schooler should be hitting at at least 65%.

magnax1

01-17-2011, 08:13 PM

http://www.insidesocal.com/tomhoffarth/360312.jpg
He wasn't that athletic. The most freakish part of him is that he could take a rebound to the other basket as well as many points, not because he was so fast but because he had great ball handling.
And I also want to know how Lebron is a legit 260. He's not a pound over 240, maybe less.
260-
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_RaOrchOImw8/TAGMUjfRF4I/AAAAAAAAjeA/c8-nJwajO-Y/s400/Karl+Malone+%26+John+Stockton,+Uta.jpg
Lebron-
http://cdn1.newsone.com/files/2010/05/lebron-james.jpg

DuMa

01-17-2011, 08:16 PM

blake griffin needs a mention

KG5MVP

01-17-2011, 08:35 PM

blake griffin needs to be in here

az00m

01-17-2011, 08:54 PM

I would put Wilt at #1

He was arguably the fastest guy in the league when he played, and plus he could take 2 steps and dunk from the free throw line at the age of 18.

G-Funk

01-17-2011, 09:21 PM

Jordan Lebron Wilt, u got a problem?1?1?

Harison

01-17-2011, 09:41 PM

Glanced through, and maybe I missed it among all MJ athleticism discussion, but nobody mentioned Jordan's hands - its freaking mittens. I would also add mentality - its harder to gauge, but some people are definitely "freaks of nature" there too, like Jordan, Bird or Russell.

Ruh-Roh

01-17-2011, 09:45 PM

The Dream deserves a nod for his ridiculous agility at that size. I'd put him easily top 20.

Anyone without Shaq or Wilt at #1 or #2 has some bias in there answer.

az00m

01-17-2011, 09:55 PM

I forgot... you can't have a freak of nature list without having dennis rodman somewhere on there. They use to refer to him as a freak of nature all the time.

While attending South Oak Cliff High School, Rodman played under future Texas A&M coach Gary Blair. However, Rodman was not considered an athletic standout. According to himself, he was "unable to hit a layup" and was listed in the high school basketball teams, but was either benched or cut from the squads. Measuring only 5 ft 6 in (1.68 m) as a freshman in high school, he also failed to make the football teams and was "totally devastated". After finishing school, Rodman worked as an overnight janitor at Dallas Fort Worth International Airport. He experienced a sudden growth spurt, and decided to give basketball another shot.

A family friend tipped off the head coach of Cooke County College in Gainesville, Texas. In his single semester there, he averaged 17.6 points and 13.3 rebounds, before flunking out due to poor academic performances. After his short stint in Gainesville, he transferred to Southeastern Oklahoma State University, an NAIA school. There, Rodman was a three-time NAIA All-American and led the NAIA in rebounding in both the 1984–85 and 1985–86 seasons. In three seasons there, 1983–84 through 1985–86, he averaged 25.7 points and 15.7 rebounds, led the NAIA in rebounding twice and registered a .637 field goal percentage. He averaged over 25 points per game for his three-year NAIA career. At the Portsmouth Invitational, a pre-draft camp for NBA hopefuls, he won Most Valuable Player honors and caught the attention of the Detroit Pistons.

Dude was a janitor at the age of 20. And not just that, between the crazy hair dyes, the constant having sex with girls every night. He tried to go for wilts record of 10,000 girls and said it was impossible and that wilt lied.

cavsfanatic

01-17-2011, 10:24 PM

Lebron is #1 dude got size,strength and speed. Shaq #2

che guevara

01-17-2011, 10:35 PM

He wasn't that athletic. The most freakish part of him is that he could take a rebound to the other basket as well as many points, not because he was so fast but because he had great ball handling.
And I also want to know how Lebron is a legit 260. He's not a pound over 240, maybe less.
260-
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_RaOrchOImw8/TAGMUjfRF4I/AAAAAAAAjeA/c8-nJwajO-Y/s400/Karl+Malone+%26+John+Stockton,+Uta.jpg
Lebron-
http://cdn1.newsone.com/files/2010/05/lebron-james.jpg
Complete fail of a post. Barkley was certainly an athletic freak; you probably never saw a clip of him pre-1991 if you don't think so. If this doesn't qualify as an athletic freak, then nobody is. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W0COm1MfaWM

Lebron is also 255 at a bare minimum - he weighed in at 240 in the pre-draft camp. Look at him now compared to his rookie year:

http://images.quizilla.com/N/nelly25/1059119795_mes_030626.jpg

http://newsoverseas.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/12/lebron-james-miami-heat.jpg