After MJ, who is the GOAT?

[KobesOneUglyTat]

Bird>Magic

[Loki]

Rabid Laker fans attack in 3...2...


For me, after Jordan it's:

Wilt
Kareem
Magic
Bird
Russell
Oscar


In that order. I've soured on Russell a bit the past couple of months. I used to have him in the top 4.


before mj is kobe, so after mj is probably iverson, lebron category.

:roll:

[Carbine]

Everything included Bill is a top 3 player in my book. However, individually he is not, if that makes any sence.

[UCLAlegend32]

isnt there only suppose to be one goat. nobody was as good as magic he changed the game.

[the even bigger black guy]

jordan was the second best behind earvin johnson

[Timmeh]

It won't be long before people start saying that Wade or LeBron will be GOAT. Sad but true.

[rzp]

magic>bird

[mhg88]

Larry Bird

[magic chiongson]

jordan <=> magic >> bird

[XxNeXuSxX]

Anything besides Wilt is incorrect. Please.

[mhg88]

LOL at the idea of magic being as good or better than jordan

Jordan > Bird >= Magic

[XxNeXuSxX]

At my comment that Wilt should unquestionably be second, if not first, is simply because of his domination.

If you go by the numbers, it would seem Wilt would be, inarguably, the greatest of all time. This does not mean the numbers mean everything, but they do accurately portray how dominant one man was for a whole era in basketball. If you can average 50 points and 20 RPG then you should automatically start being considered G.O.A.T. But Wilt never really got the rings to go with the stats.

Anyway, Wilt is #2 All time on my list.

He got the stats(Arguably the best ever), dominated the league by a wide margin, and was able to finally come out with a ring in the end.

Just scratching the surface, I'm really hammered right now.

[The Mamba]

Bill Russell

Hands down.

My man has 11 rings, and only 10 fingers.

[kumquat]

The man also had the best team mates. He's up there, but you can't judge a player solely on rings.

[cookiemonster]

I really can't say there is anybody better than Bird, same with Magic and MJ...

Well maybe Wilt, he was like the Paul Bunyan of Basketball, but it's hard to say because he played in a different era.

[hateraid]

I love these GOAT topics. The funny thing is thread starter made the snap judgement that everybody on here thinks MJ is the GOAT.
If MJ stands for Magic Johnson than yes, you are correct sir.
Second IMO opinion is Wilt. Scoring titles in which it will never be duplicated. Monster average on boards and multiple titles to boot.

[G-train]

too hard to tell... Francisco Elson might have dominated in Wilts era - Jordan, James, Bird, Johnson dominate every era...

[Y2Gezee]

I think Magic, and like many others have said Im not so quick to say the other MJ is better than him. Guy had no weaknesses. Wasn't as great as Michael defensively, but was definately a good man to man defender especially for his position when he actually did guard pgs. And excellent team defender to boot as I think led the league in steals a few times, definately once.

I wont flat out say Magic is better than Mike, I'd say MJ=EJ=>Bird and Kareem is up there.

[AKADS]

It won't be long before people start saying that Wade or LeBron will be GOAT. Sad but true.

i think LeBron has the physical ability to be a group with these players but might not have the heart to create his legend. Wade is off to one hell of a start but I really am intrested in how his body will hold up. One thing i notice about these list is every player has the ability to go on the block. Magic and Bird could both play a effect game down low. Kareem, Wilt, Russell were all centers. Mike loved to play in the post as his career developed. I think that will be a major factor in if LeBron and Wade every become a part of this discusion.

I think Russel is the GOAT. He wasn't MJ but he was the greatest team player in the History of the game and basketball is a team game.

[Y2Gezee]

too hard to tell... Francisco Elson might have dominated in Wilts era - Jordan, James, Bird, Johnson dominate every era...


That's sorta funny, wrong but funny. Wilt is a top 10 player ever, but I'll never say he's better than Shaq or Kareem due to his era.





BTW, what James do you happen to be talking about? Worthy?

[Zombles]

Don't get the whole MJ-MJ debate, Michael was a much better team & individual defensive player then Magic and offensively they were comparable. While Magic hit some big shots he also choked away a Finals series, Jordan always, always came through on the bit stage. Plus in their biggest 1on1 matchup Michael came through, crushing Magic Johnson with his own game, though Magic was a little past his prime at that point.

But as to the topic, I'd have to go with Kareem. 5 MVPs, 6 championships, all time scoring leader, defensively sound, solid rebounder, impossible to stop post player, played with the greatest big men to ever play and always held his own. By the late 80s he wasn't leading the Lakers to chamipnships anymore, but he still had a considerable effect and they probably wouldn't have won without him. He combines the winning with the stats, the accolades with the tangible game, and played both sides of the court.

[G-train]

Don't get the whole MJ-MJ debate, Michael was a much better team & individual defensive player then Magic and offensively they were comparable. While Magic hit some big shots he also choked away a Finals series, Jordan always, always came through on the bit stage. Plus in their biggest 1on1 matchup Michael came through, crushing Magic Johnson with his own game, though Magic was a little past his prime at that point.


Did u watch the 91 NBa finals? Cos Jordan played great, but he had a far superior team that just ran over the LAKers, who were ageing and were missing heaps of talent due to injury..... however MAgic played exceptional in the circumstances - the crushing comment is garbage

[Gotterdammerung]

Wilt: 30.1ppg career (23497 FG attempts)
GOAT: 30.1ppg career (24,537 FG attempts)

70 points in a game
Wilt: 4
GOAT: 0

38+ ppg in a season
Wilt: 3 times
GOAT: 0

60+ points in a single game
Wilt: 32 times
GOAT: 5 times
Bonus: Rest of league history: 26 times

winning MVP and rookie of the year award in the same season
Wilt, yes
GOAT, no

Double Triple Double
Wilt: once (22 points, 25 rebounds and 21 assists in 1968 against the Detroit Pistons)
GOAT: never

Quadruple Double Double
Wilt: once (78 points & 43 rebounds against the Los Angeles Lakers, on December 8, 1961)
GOAT: never

triple-doubles streak
Wilt: 9
GOAT: None

Total NBA Records
Wilt: 46
GOAT: 12

:rollingeyes:

[Zombles]

Did u watch the 91 NBa finals? Cos Jordan played great, but he had a far superior team that just ran over the LAKers, who were ageing and were missing heaps of talent due to injury..... however MAgic played exceptional in the circumstances - the crushing comment is garbage

I'm not saying Magic should have won, his team was worse and suffering some injures if memory serves, but Michael took it straight at him, playing some point guard, spending a lot of time guarding him when Scottie wasn't, outscored him, out shot him in terms of field goal percentage, out stole him, and if memory serves even outassisted him, or at least came damn close. MJ averaged 11+ assists for that series, along with the usual 30+ points and right around 3 steals a game. Michael played Magic's game and did it better then him.

Magic's probably team would have lost either way, but Jordan's performance absolutely dwarfed what Magic did.

I get that he made the league awesone and passing fun again, showtime was money and all that, but Christ, people jock this guy like his sperm is holy water and they're lost in the desert. Magic Johnson isn't even top 5 all time.

[Psileas]

After MJ, who is the GOAT?

Instead of having as a given that anyone has MJ @ No1, just make a thread of who we think are the 2 GOAT.

Wilt, Jordan and Russell are my 3 choices. With Wilt going first.

[KIWI]

Oscar Robertson Mr Triple Double!

[Psileas]

Francisco Elson might have dominated in Wilts era. Jordan, James, Bird, Johnson dominate every era...

The 80's differ to today's basketball as much as the 60's to the 80's. I don't know why, if the 80's stars could dominate every era, the 60's ones couldn't. And no, Elson could only dominate the 40's and early-mid 50's. Then was the era of the "6-7 centers". Wilt's era was quite different, though. The only legit 6-7 center of that era was Wes Unseld, who was also around 300 lbs at his peak.

[Lei]

"There's Michael Jordan and then there is the rest of us"

----Magic Johnson.

[disco]

As we all know, and as has been discussed here almost too many times, comparing players from different eras is impossible and one could say unnecessary. But in any case I would say:
1. Jordan
2. Magic
3. Wilt
4. Kareem
5. Russell
6. Bird
.
.
.
.
.

[GothamKnight]

the question is when thinking about GOAT are you going by career or peak?

[Carbine]

Career, obviously. Or else Benard King would be hailed a top 35 player ever.

[Batchoy]

Career, obviously. Or else Benard King would be hailed a top 35 player ever.Nate "Tiny" Archibald would be ranked way up there too. Led the league in assists and points in a season (34.0 ppg and 11.4 apg). No one else has done that...yet.

[Y2Gezee]

The 80's differ to today's basketball as much as the 60's to the 80's. I don't know why, if the 80's stars could dominate every era, the 60's ones couldn't. And no, Elson could only dominate the 40's and early-mid 50's. Then was the era of the "6-7 centers". Wilt's era was quite different, though. The only legit 6-7 center of that era was Wes Unseld, who was also around 300 lbs at his peak.


The 80s don't differ today that much, when talking about the individual player. The best players in the 80s can hang with or in most cases out play the ones of today. As most of them were better 2 way players. Only major difference is that the teams today aren't as good or as deep in part to expansion.


Back on topic, Magic went through greater competition to get his 5 than Jordan to get his 6. Yeah, Mike was one of the greatest defenders ever, but Magic still was a very good defender overall and helped lead some very good defenses. Now take into consideration that Magic ran an offense probably better than anybody in history or (at worst top 3), and could probably make the Hawks today into an well-oiled machine and probably a better leader than Mike, well I think that makes up for some of the defensive and scoring Mike has over Magic.

And for Zombles to say he isn't top 5 is :wtf:

[basketballer4]

Kevin Garnett.

[Carbine]

And for Zombles to say he isn't top 5 is wtf

Kareem
Jordan
Wilt
Bird
Bill

All have cases for top five. It's not all out wrong to say Magic is not top five.

[Sound and Fury]

Boy, this topic got derailed quickly.

I actually thought Bill Simmons made a great point in the article where he compared Larry Legend to Big Papi - when you become an NBA icon, it's like climbing Mount Everest. You get to the top of the mountain with everyone else, and that's it. You can't climb MORE of Everest than the whole thing.

IMO, there are eight players that sit atop the "Everest" of the NBA and are in the All-Time Greats section. In no particular order:

Wilt, Jordan, Magic, Bird, Kareem, Russell, West, Robertson.

You can make a pretty good argument for ANY of these players being "the" greatest of all time, but that's just silly - they're all transcendent talents but their games were different enough that they can't be compared apples-to-apples. How do you compare Jordan - a slashing two guard - to Russell, a defensive anchor in the middle? Answer? You can't. You simply say that they were all incredible talents and leave it at that.

So to the original poster's question, I don't put Jordan "first" but if you want to single him out from the other seven guys, fine - the other seven are all tied for second place.

[The Mamba]

The man also had the best team mates. He's up there, but you can't judge a player solely on rings.
He had a good player or two with him, but you can't hold that against him. He was the leader of that team, and he had 11 rings. He was supremely talented. And is hands down, the best defensive big to ever play the game. For the most part, he was the one making those teammates better. Bob Cousy is the only one you can really make a case for as being a great on his own merits.

[Sound and Fury]

Kareem
Jordan
Wilt
Bird
Bill

All have cases for top five. It's not all out wrong to say Magic is not top five.
How does Bird "have a case for top 5" when Magic doesn't? There is a reason the two are always linked, and it's not just because they came into the league together after playing in the NCAA championship game. They're basically joined at the hip - both were ultimate team players who could score, shoot, pass, and rebound - whatever was needed. Bird probably had the better shooting eye, and Magic was more athletic (especially once Bird's back started giving him trouble), but in general, they were almost interchangeable as players - in fact, Magic would "play Bird" and vice versa in scrimmages when they were preparing to play against each other.

[GothamKnight]

Boy, this topic got derailed quickly.

I actually thought Bill Simmons made a great point in the article where he compared Larry Legend to Big Papi - when you become an NBA icon, it's like climbing Mount Everest. You get to the top of the mountain with everyone else, and that's it. You can't climb MORE of Everest than the whole thing.

IMO, there are eight players that sit atop the "Everest" of the NBA and are in the All-Time Greats section. In no particular order:

Wilt, Jordan, Magic, Bird, Kareem, Russell, West, Robertson.

You can make a pretty good argument for ANY of these players being "the" greatest of all time, but that's just silly - they're all transcendent talents but their games were different enough that they can't be compared apples-to-apples. How do you compare Jordan - a slashing two guard - to Russell, a defensive anchor in the middle? Answer? You can't. You simply say that they were all incredible talents and leave it at that.

So to the original poster's question, I don't put Jordan "first" but if you want to single him out from the other seven guys, fine - the other seven are all tied for second place.

Shaq should be up there

[cks9505]

Depends on how you view the question.
If you ase this on accomplishments you have to say Bill Russell
If you base it on talent, I don't think anyone is touching Lebron James right now

[Sound and Fury]

Shaq should be up there
No, he shouln't (and I like Shaq). Shaq had the size for physical dominance, but had nowhere near the skill and drive that the others had. (Even Wilt, who was physically dominant, had an incredible amount of skill - remember, when criticized for not being anything but a scorer, he said, "fine, I'll lead the league in assists next season" - and then did it).

If you implanted Jordan's will to win and work ethic in Shaq's body, Shaq would probably be on the list - but Shaq has interests outside of basketball and is not all-consumed with winning. Fair or not, the perception is that Shaq squandered his talent and just coasted through his career on raw ability, which is why most people won't put him on the GOAT list. Hakeem is probably "in line" before Shaq is.

My knock on Shaq is not that he wasn't dominant, but that he made no effort to improve, while the rest of the guys I named did, which made them progressively MORE dominant. That's the difference (to me, anyway).

[HALLandOATES]

Wilt, Jordan, Magic, Bird, Kareem, Russell, West, Robertson.Shaq


Shaq had the size for physical dominance, but had nowhere near the skill and drive that the others had.

So does Jason Collins.


If you implanted Jordan's will to win and work ethic in Shaq's body, Shaq would probably be on the list - but Shaq has interests outside of basketball and is not all-consumed with winning. Fair or not, the perception is that Shaq squandered his talent and just coasted through his career on raw ability, which is why most people won't put him on the GOAT list. Hakeem is probably "in line" before Shaq is.

You look to mcuh into the medias pespective of it, Magic had other interest rather then the NBA , he liked to party just as much as the next guy. I'm not saying Shaq is better then any of those guys on you're list but there can def. be a argument made that this man deserves to be up there. 4 rings , 1 MVP , 9 con. fg % best in the NBA , 10 plus all-star appeareances, 20pts or more whole career, 10 rebs or more except last year.

[K*O*B*E]

Magic is the best complete basketball talent ever to grace a basketball court point blank period. centers are like line men in the NFL they should never be consired the best because they duties are so limited wilt did not have any ballhandling duties he didn't face any one equal with his size the best player he faced was not even a true center compared to him. but it has to be magic

[The Mamba]

Magic is the best complete basketball talent ever to grace a basketball court point blank period. centers are like line men in the NFL they should never be consired the best because they duties are so limited wilt did not have any ballhandling duties he didn't face any one equal with his size the best player he faced was not even a true center compared to him. but it has to be magic
Magic didn't play much defense, though. But he is definetely up there. Amazing talent.

[JtotheIzzo]

Magic is the best complete basketball talent ever to grace a basketball court point blank period. centers are like line men in the NFL they should never be consired the best because they duties are so limited wilt did not have any ballhandling duties he didn't face any one equal with his size the best player he faced was not even a true center compared to him. but it has to be magic

you're a complete idiot and no one should ever take anything you say seriously again because of that statement.

Wilt a lineman????Falkin hell dude have you lost your mind? has wankin to Kobe pullout posters made you blind?

Look at his stats, tell me ANY lineman in history that has ever dominated like that.

Forget about all his scoring records, the guy averaged 23 rebounds for his CAREER.

BTW. the best complete player has to have a jumpshot, and Macgic aint got one.

[K*O*B*E]

you're a complete idiot and no one should ever take anything you say seriously again because of that statement.

Wilt a lineman????Falkin hell dude have you lost your mind? has wankin to Kobe pullout posters made you blind?

Look at his stats, tell me ANY lineman in history that has ever dominated like that.

Forget about all his scoring records, the guy averaged 23 rebounds for his CAREER.

BTW. the best complete player has to have a jumpshot, and Macgic aint got one.
I pretty sure he did average 23 rebouds who the **** was as big as him no one and the best player he faced was a under size center in bill russell, and dumbass you ever heard of reggie white,michale strahan,and warren sapp. **** you *******. magic was 6'9 and could play every single position something wilt chambelain couldn't dream of doing so **** you jailbird.

[K*O*B*E]

I pretty sure he did average 23 rebouds who the **** was as big as him no one and the best player he faced was a under size center in bill russell, and dumbass you ever heard of reggie white,michale strahan,and warren sapp. **** you *******. magic was 6'9 and could play every single position something wilt chambelain couldn't dream of doing so **** you jailbird.
and even if he wasn't a great shooter he fg% is over 50% in his career

[JtotheIzzo]

I pretty sure he did average 23 rebouds who the **** was as big as him no one and the best player he faced was a under size center in bill russell, and dumbass you ever heard of reggie white,michale strahan,and warren sapp. **** you *******. magic was 6'9 and could play every single position something wilt chambelain couldn't dream of doing so **** you jailbird.

Oh, okay, I see, he is penalized for being bigger than everyone else. I wasn't aware that was part of the criteria.

Are you willing to penalize Magic for being 5 inches taller than all the other point guards of his era?

Bill Russell could very well be the defensive GOAT so as far as decent comp goes, it is hard to get much better (funny, the more you talk, the dumber you sound).

This whole Magic can play center BS is one of the most blown out of proportion falsefacts in basketball history and is brought up far too much. That game 6 against Philly where Magic 'played' center is a crock. Watch the game sometime on ESPN classic. he took the jump ball and then went back to the point or floated on the perimiter for the rest of the game. he wasnt a center during that game. magic is a top 5 guy for sure, but when a jacka$$ like you starts saying Wilt had only a minor affect on the game because he didnt dribble the ball is ridiculous.

Wilt changed the game, and was the most dominant force ever, hardly just a 'lineman'.

[dejordan]

here's a little math for you: in his career jordan played with 1 other all-star. the total number of times his team had 2 all-stars on it = 6. jordan has 6 championship rings and 6 finals mvp trophies. every single time jordan had championship caliber support, EVERY SINGLE TIME, he won the title. he didn't come close. he didn't let his team lose to the rockets twice when he clearly had the superior squad. nobody else ever took the burden to win the big games on his shoulders. he didn't play with a 6 time mvp. he didn't play with big-game james (well, he did in college). he didn't lose to michael jordan's bulls in the 1991 finals. all mj did in his career was average 30 points against constant double teams, give the confidence and will to win to players like jud buchler and luc longley, instill the heart and desire to be an all-time great in scottie pippen, and crush all opposition once he reached the top.

oh and then there's defense. yeah, basketball is apparently played on both sides of the ball. jordon won a defensive player of the year award. name another guard who's done that off the top of your head. he's also been an all-d first team guard 9 times. tied by only gary payton. magic couldn't defend his own position. not that he could defend the 2 or 3 either. he was a good team defender and a good lane poacher because of his superb court vision, but one on one he was a hand-checking, praying 6' 9" weak link. by the way, this same argument works against bird.

magic is the best point guard of all time. by a wide margin. jordan is the best player of all time. don't believe me? read one of the books or articles or watch one of the games magic announced where he came out and called jordan the best ever. still don't believe me? put your number 32 jersey on and wait for a lakers game on espn classic. just hope it isn't a finals game from 1989-1991.

[JtotheIzzo]

here's a little math for you: in his career jordan played with 1 other all-star. the total number of times his team had 2 all-stars on it = 6. jordan has 6 championship rings and 6 finals mvp trophies. every single time jordan had championship caliber support, EVERY SINGLE TIME, he won the title. he didn't come close. he didn't let his team lose to the rockets twice when he clearly had the superior squad. nobody else ever took the burden to win the big games on his shoulders. he didn't play with a 6 time mvp. he didn't play with big-game james (well, he did in college). he didn't lose to michael jordan's bulls in the 1991 finals. all mj did in his career was average 30 points against constant double teams, give the confidence and will to win to players like jud buchler and luc longley, instill the heart and desire to be an all-time great in scottie pippen, and crush all opposition once he reached the top.

oh and then there's defense. yeah, basketball is apparently played on both sides of the ball. jordon won a defensive player of the year award. name another guard who's done that off the top of your head. he's also been an all-d first team guard 9 times. tied by only gary payton. magic couldn't defend his own position. not that he could defend the 2 or 3 either. he was a good team defender and a good lane poacher because of his superb court vision, but one on one he was a hand-checking, praying 6' 9" weak link. by the way, this same argument works against bird.

magic is the best point guard of all time. by a wide margin. jordan is the best player of all time. don't believe me? read one of the books or articles or watch one of the games magic announced where he came out and called jordan the best ever. still don't believe me? put your number 32 jersey on and wait for a lakers game on espn classic. just hope it isn't a finals game from 1989-1991.

read the title of the thread, it says 'after MJ (your boy Jordan) who is the GOAT.' I can see from your username though you were keen to jump at the opportunity to stick it to someone and big up your man. Good on ya!

[dejordan]

stats are fantastic. here's a stat, jordan hit 26 game winners before retiring the 2nd time. i can think of 3 off the top of my head that mike hit while wearing wizards colors. how many close games to the celtics did wilt lose because he's a center with no range who couldn't get the ball in tight situations and couldn't make a free throw to save shaq's life? a great center is terrific because he can get a team lost of easy baskets close to the rim and pick up tons of rebounds in the process. but he needs a west, a gar heard, a kobe, a sam jones, a havlicek, a magic johnson... a guard who can create his own shot to win big games. jordan is the ONLY player ever to be able to carry a team offensively to the tune of 30+ points and hit or create all the big shots necessary to win the title. oh, and he did it 6 times.

[dejordan]

read the title of the thread, it says 'after MJ (your boy Jordan) who is the GOAT.' I can see from your username though you were keen to jump at the opportunity to stick it to someone and big up your man. Good on ya!
you're absolutely right... gots to stick up for my boy!

[JtotheIzzo]

stats are fantastic. here's a stat, jordan hit 26 game winners before retiring the 2nd time. i can think of 3 off the top of my head that mike hit while wearing wizards colors. how many close games to the celtics did wilt lose because he's a center with no range who couldn't get the ball in tight situations and couldn't make a free throw to save shaq's life? a great center is terrific because he can get a team lost of easy baskets close to the rim and pick up tons of rebounds in the process. but he needs a west, a gar heard, a kobe, a sam jones, a havlicek, a magic johnson... a guard who can create his own shot to win big games. jordan is the ONLY player ever to be able to carry a team offensively to the tune of 30+ points and hit or create all the big shots necessary to win the title. oh, and he did it 6 times.

you're a broken record jacka$$. we all know Jordan is the GOAT, what the hell is your point? Are you his falkin publicist or something?

[dejordan]

see above. i wrote that second one before i read your comment. jackass.

[indenial]

Many would argue that the GOAT is Arvydas Sabonis of Lithuania!

[JtotheIzzo]

see above. i wrote that second one before i read your comment. jackass.

Im only playin boy chill out

btw. how did you type jackass without it coming up all jack***

[JtotheIzzo]

I guess you can type jackass, but you cant type **** (D-i-c-k) what the hell is going on?

[Sound and Fury]

jordan is the best player of all time. don't believe me? Wilt is the best player of all time. Don't believe me? Check out some of his numbers... averaged 50.4 ppg for a SEASON, averaged 48.5 minutes per game for a SEASON, led the league in assists, played better defense than anyone but Russell...

Kareem is the best player of all time. Don't believe me? Nobody has more MVPs, nobody has more career points, nobody consistently put the burden of a whole crappy team on his shoulders and carried them from garbage to playoff glory...

Robertson is the best player of all time. Don't believe me? He averaged a triple double, he was big and impossible for other guards to handle...

Russell was the best player of all time. Don't believe me? Count his rings. Now count his fingers. Watch a telecast of the Finals during the 80's, and note how they call Russell the greatest of all time...

West was the best player of all time. Don't believe me? The guy is the frickin' NBA logo. He was named the Finals MVP even though he was on the LOSING squad. Long before Jordan was "clutch," West was "Mister Clutch" and he would hit 60-footers at the buzzer to tie Finals games...

Bird was the best player of all time. Don't believe me? The guy could do anything he wanted, knew where the play was going before it even started, and could tell you exactly where and how he was going to shoot the ball and you still couldn't stop him...

Magic was the best player of all time. Don't believe me? He started at center as a rookie in Game 6 of the Finals and won, he had 8 Finals appearances, and only lost three of them because he was facing off against other legendary dynasty teams - something Jordan didn't have to do...

See how silly this gets? Depending on what you want to focus on, every one of those 8 players, has an argument. That's why I say (joining Simmons), "they're all atop Everest, and you can't climb more of Everest than there is, so you can't climb above them, you can only put yourself there with them."

[Zombles]

And for Zombles to say he isn't top 5 is :wtf:

Chamberlin
Russel
Kareem
Jordan

are all clearly ahead of Magic, and anyone else, in my opinion. The last spot is a complete toss up between Magic, Bird, and Robertson.

[Loki]

triple-doubles streak
Wilt: 9
GOAT: None

Total NBA Records
Wilt: 46
GOAT: 12

:rollingeyes:

Jordan actually had 7 consecutive triple-doubles (not "none"), and 10 in an 11 game stretch. He also has a hell of a lot more than 12 records. Certainly not as many as Wilt, but more than 12. Where are you getting your info?


Back on topic, Magic went through greater competition to get his 5 than Jordan to get his 6

The level of competition that Magic faced relative to Jordan is offset by the comparative advantage he had in the form of better teammates. That argument is silly for this very reason. Besides, while the teams Jordan faced in the Finals weren't on the level of the 80's Celtics (though several were certainly excellent: Phoenix, Portland, and Utah), the Eastern Conference was where it was at from the late 80's til the mid-90's; Jordan's road to the Finals was frequently tougher than the Showtime era Western conference. Regardless, the first sentence of this paragraph is the real reason why it's silly to point to Magic's "superior competition." He himself had a superior team.

[dejordan]

Im only playin boy chill out

btw. how did you type jackass without it coming up all jack***
i didn't know if did the *** on menial swears... so i guess you're not interested in my counter-kobe argument? :hammerhead:

[K*O*B*E]

Oh, okay, I see, he is penalized for being bigger than everyone else. I wasn't aware that was part of the criteria.

Are you willing to penalize Magic for being 5 inches taller than all the other point guards of his era?

Bill Russell could very well be the defensive GOAT so as far as decent comp goes, it is hard to get much better (funny, the more you talk, the dumber you sound).

This whole Magic can play center BS is one of the most blown out of proportion falsefacts in basketball history and is brought up far too much. That game 6 against Philly where Magic 'played' center is a crock. Watch the game sometime on ESPN classic. he took the jump ball and then went back to the point or floated on the perimiter for the rest of the game. he wasnt a center during that game. magic is a top 5 guy for sure, but when a jacka$$ like you starts saying Wilt had only a minor affect on the game because he didnt dribble the ball is ridiculous.

Wilt changed the game, and was the most dominant force ever, hardly just a 'lineman'.
Linemen are the most important players on the field but they don't get mention like skill players because there abillity is so limited magic could play all five positions like it or not buddy. and I didn't say he had little affect on the game I said big men in general skill are limited

[indenial]

Many would argue that the GOAT is Arvydas Sabonis of Lithuania!
:rockon:

[Carbine]

How does Bird "have a case for top 5" when Magic doesn't? There is a reason the two are always linked, and it's not just because they came into the league together after playing in the NCAA championship game. They're basically joined at the hip - both were ultimate team players who could score, shoot, pass, and rebound - whatever was needed. Bird probably had the better shooting eye, and Magic was more athletic (especially once Bird's back started giving him trouble), but in general, they were almost interchangeable as players - in fact, Magic would "play Bird" and vice versa in scrimmages when they were preparing to play against each other.

Woah, Wig... slow down.

I never said Magic didn't have a case for top five, rather... the five players I listed had just as fair an argument for top five status as Magic did.

Zombles posted Magic wasn't top five I believe & a poster came in and said he was basically crazy for thinking that, when in reality it wasn't a far out statement because Bird, Russell, Wilt, MJ & Kareem all have legit cases that they were top five all time, just like Magic does. Howvever, six player & five spots... you do the math. One gets left out & all I was implying was Magic not being in on his top five was a legit claim, just as if he would've said Bird was not top five.

[K*O*B*E]

Woah, Wig... slow down.

I never said Magic didn't have a case for top five, rather... the five players I listed had just as fair an argument for top five status as Magic did.

Zombles posted Magic wasn't top five I believe & a poster came in and said he was basically crazy for thinking that, when in reality it wasn't a far out statement because Bird, Russell, Wilt, MJ & Kareem all have legit cases that they were top five all time, just like Magic does. Howvever, six player & five spots... you do the math. One gets left out & all I was implying was Magic not being in on his top five was a legit claim, just as if he would've said Bird was not top five.
both of them are in the top 5

[Carbine]

Then who gets left off out of MJ, Kareem, Russel & Wilt?

[Sound and Fury]

Zombles posted Magic wasn't top five I believe & a poster came in and said he was basically crazy for thinking that, when in reality it wasn't a far out statement because Bird, Russell, Wilt, MJ & Kareem all have legit cases that they were top five all time, just like Magic does. Howvever, six player & five spots... you do the math. One gets left out & all I was implying was Magic not being in on his top five was a legit claim, just as if he would've said Bird was not top five.Okay, just checking. :)

Like I've said, I have 8 players on my list, and putting them into 5 slots just doesn't work for me either. Why does everything have to be top 5 or top 10, anyway? :hammerhead:

[Psileas]

jordan is the ONLY player ever to be able to carry a team offensively to the tune of 30+ points and hit or create all the big shots necessary to win the title.

No. Rick Barry, Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, Pettit, Shaq (although he didn't take all the big shots obviously) and Mikan (before shot-clock though) did it as well. Plus, you don't have to score 30 points or play like Jordan played to dominate. Others dominated in other ways. Bill Russell in the playoffs was scoring 16-20 points, grabbing 25 rebounds, giving 4-5 assists, blocking 8 shots per game and he was winning the title every year. Wilt averaged almost a triple double in the 1967 playoffs. Magic had 32 playoff triple doubles, compared to 10 of the runner-up (Bird).

[Rasheed1]

Linemen are the most important players on the field but they don't get mention like skill players because there abillity is so limited magic could play all five positions like it or not buddy. and I didn't say he had little affect on the game I said big men in general skill are limited

I cant take it anymore.....this lineman argument is killin me...

Linemen are nothing like NBA centers at all :hammerhead: dont even try to form an argument like that..

And you said wilt was like a lineman.? You mean Wilt 'the stilt' Chamberlain?

Wilt was a center who could run the break like a guard.....Wilt was the high jump champ at 'Brook for like 30 years....

What NFL lineman can do the things wilt did?

[Y2Gezee]

The level of competition that Magic faced relative to Jordan is offset by the comparative advantage he had in the form of better teammates. That argument is silly for this very reason. Besides, while the teams Jordan faced in the Finals weren't on the level of the 80's Celtics (though several were certainly excellent: Phoenix, Portland, and Utah), the Eastern Conference was where it was at from the late 80's til the mid-90's; Jordan's road to the Finals was frequently tougher than the Showtime era Western conference. Regardless, the first sentence of this paragraph is the real reason why it's silly to point to Magic's "superior competition." He himself had a superior team.

First 3peat yes. 2nd 3peat with Rodman, Harper I'd say it would be a team that would compete in the 80s with the best of them, but it played in a watered down league.


And Russell isn't top 5. HIs offensive game wouldn't translate that great into the newer eras. And he wouldn't get 20 rebounds a game.

I will always keep Russell and Wilt in the top 10 out of respect and due to the fact that they'd still be great players in newer eras. However, the centers they played against would be guards in todays NBA.

But they're not better than Magic. In fact Magic possibly would've been one of the legendary centers back in the 60s.


Edit: I also believe that once Kareem started declining, including the last 2 championships. That teams wasn't too much better than the first 3peat teams in Chitown, if they were at all

[dejordan]

No. Rick Barry, Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, Pettit, Shaq (although he didn't take all the big shots obviously) and Mikan (before shot-clock though) did it as well. Plus, you don't have to score 30 points or play like Jordan played to dominate. Others dominated in other ways. Bill Russell in the playoffs was scoring 16-20 points, grabbing 25 rebounds, giving 4-5 assists, blocking 8 shots per game and he was winning the title every year. Wilt averaged almost a triple double in the 1967 playoffs. Magic had 32 playoff triple doubles, compared to 10 of the runner-up (Bird).
did barry win a title while averaging 30? i did not know that!

i totally agree with you in terms of other players being dominant in other ways, i'm just saying that NO other players had to carry the wilt-like offensive load and then win it in the end to give their teams championships (except apparently rick barry). kareem had magic and worthy and scott and oscar to take big shots or at least set him up in good position (i'd be obtuse to say kareem didn't hit big shots because he's the clutchest center of all time). wilt NEEDED someone else to hit big shots for exactly the same reasons as shaq. bird could carry his team and hit the biggest shots you ever saw, but mchale, parish, and dennis johnson had their numbers retired in the garden for a reason.

on top of carrying his team all game long on the offensive end and then nailing the daggers when necessary, mj also performed at the highest level on defense, so while the bill russell arguments are completely sound, mike was a dominant force at both ends with the clutch factor and the lack of supporting hall-of-fame talent (check out how many of russell's teammates are HOFers). anyway, i'm not really disagreeing, just adding...

and i know it's totally unfair to them but i just have a personal bias against pettit and mikan who did so many great things while the modern game was still coalescing around them. people say that wilt didn't have to deal with sophisticated defenses, which is true, but we can look at wilt and see that he could at least approximate shaq's game today, so he's an all-time great right there. russell is like a taller, smarter, more determined, better passing and shooting ben wallace. no problem there. but these skinnier guys with slower moves who opporated in the post... i just have trouble picturing them dominating against the chuck daily / pat riley / phil jackson defenses that have come to dominate the league.

[JtotheIzzo]

Linemen are the most important players on the field but they don't get mention like skill players because there abillity is so limited magic could play all five positions like it or not buddy. and I didn't say he had little affect on the game I said big men in general skill are limited

Youre an idiot who's comments get dumber by the post.

Wilt has limited skills? STFU moron and watch a game sometime. There are plenty of skilled big men, especially back in Wilt's era.

[Psileas]

did barry win a title while averaging 30? i did not know that!

He did, in 1975.


kareem had magic and worthy and scott and oscar to take big shots or at least set him up in good position (i'd be obtuse to say kareem didn't hit big shots because he's the clutchest center of all time). wilt NEEDED someone else to hit big shots for exactly the same reasons as shaq.

Centers aren't supposed to do this-although Kareem, like you said, did have winning baskets (and yes, even Wilt had). Don't knock on them because of this. It's like someone saying that Jordan wasn't a great factor in rebounding or in under-the-basket defense and intimidation.


bird could carry his team and hit the biggest shots you ever saw, but mchale, parish, and dennis johnson had their numbers retired in the garden for a reason.

You don't win a ring by yourself. Jordan always had the-also retired-No33 by him, as well as the greatest modern rebounder from 1996 to '98. Bird and Magic had more great players by them, but they battled each other or against other loaded teams, like the Sixers or Pistons. They always had a major challenge. Jordan's best consistant challenge was Malone, who's not considered on the same level.


(check out how many of russell's teammates are HOFers).

Not that it isn't true, but many of them became HOF'ers or had their numbers retired BECAUSE of Russell. Sanders, KC Jones, Frank Ramsey, Loscutoff were just good role players, but quite far from "Honor Material".


people say that wilt didn't have to deal with sophisticated defenses

Actually, Wilt was doubled/tripled a lot in his career, even by the Celtics. What was clearly less sophisticated was the peripheral defense, but close to the basket, things changed. And, like Shaq, Wilt endured a lot of physical abuse, although he was so stronger than his opponents that he was hardly feeling it. But things could become violent. Check Clyde Lovelette, the first Bill Laimbeer: In a game during Wilt's rookie year, he threw an elbow strong enough to break several of his teeth. In 1964, he frustrated him again during a game, resulting this time in Wilt knocking him out with a punch.


but these skinnier guys with slower moves who opporated in the post... i just have trouble picturing them dominating against the chuck daily / pat riley / phil jackson defenses that have come to dominate the league.

They would adapt. They wouldn't just be tranferred in future and then stay as they were. After all, you can see a mid-80's game, compare it to a today's one, and you'll notice size (bulk) and defense differences, as well. I have no doubt that a player from the 80's could quickly adjust and dominate 20 years later, but so would someone from the 60's. Would Jerry West find it hard to learn the cross-over or Dr.J to dunk between the legs (like it matters...)? I doubt it, especially with today's training techniques.

[dejordan]

He did, in 1975.



Centers aren't supposed to do this-although Kareem, like you said, did have winning baskets (and yes, even Wilt had). Don't knock on them because of this. It's like someone saying that Jordan wasn't a great factor in rebounding or in under-the-basket defense and intimidation.



You don't win a ring by yourself. Jordan always had the-also retired-No33 by him, as well as the greatest modern rebounder from 1996 to '98. Bird and Magic had more great players by them, but they battled each other or against other loaded teams, like the Sixers or Pistons. They always had a major challenge. Jordan's best consistant challenge was Malone, who's not considered on the same level.



Not that it isn't true, but many of them became HOF'ers or had their numbers retired BECAUSE of Russell. Sanders, KC Jones, Frank Ramsey, Loscutoff were just good role players, but quite far from "Honor Material".



Actually, Wilt was doubled/tripled a lot in his career, even by the Celtics. What was clearly less sophisticated was the peripheral defense, but close to the basket, things changed. And, like Shaq, Wilt endured a lot of physical abuse, although he was so stronger than his opponents that he was hardly feeling it. But things could become violent. Check Clyde Lovelette, the first Bill Laimbeer: In a game during Wilt's rookie year, he threw an elbow strong enough to break several of his teeth. In 1964, he frustrated him again during a game, resulting this time in Wilt knocking him out with a punch.



They would adapt. They wouldn't just be tranferred in future and then stay as they were. After all, you can see a mid-80's game, compare it to a today's one, and you'll notice size (bulk) and defense differences, as well. I have no doubt that a player from the 80's could quickly adjust and dominate 20 years later, but so would someone from the 60's. Would Jerry West find it hard to learn the cross-over or Dr.J to dunk between the legs (like it matters...)? I doubt it, especially with today's training techniques.

great points, man! all the way down! i still say, and i've heard phil jackson say this when discussing whether he'd take mj or shaq with a first pick, that a great perimeter player has an advantage because he can come get the ball in the backcourt rather than needing to be fed in position, but those are fantastic arguments! you're totally right that the old-timers would grow up lifting weights and practicing moves that this generation uses (wonder if their fundamentals would suffer the same way) - nothing happens in a vacuum! the only dispute i'd have is that if you want to credit russell with making a lot of his supporting cast HOFers, then you've got to hand it to mike for bring the intensity level of pippen's game up about 6 notches. scottie was SOFT his first few seasons, and constant practices and weight training with mj really elevated him. altogether though, props on a well-reasoned response!

[ReturnOfJimi]

MJ
Wilt
Bird
Magic
Russell

Shaq
West
Kobe
Dr. J
Mikan (will be supplanted by LeBron)

Probly forgetting someone important.

The Barkleys, Kareems, Hakeems, Malones, McHales, Duncans, Waltons, Isiahs, Gervins, Iversons, Wades etc. are in the next class, IMO.

That's the way I see it. This is factors in "league importance" and "league dominance" as well as "talent" and "career achievement."

Kobe was NOT on this list before last season.

[West-Side]

No, he shouln't (and I like Shaq). Shaq had the size for physical dominance, but had nowhere near the skill and drive that the others had.

I wish Shaquille played in Wilt's era, your opinion would rapidly change.

[HALLandOATES]

Kobe is better then Hakeem?

[jordan23]

jamal crawford is the goat

[ReturnOfJimi]

Kobe is better then Hakeem?

Better? I don't know... it's hard to compare two guys who play ENTIRELY different positions and had different teammates. As for on-court impact... Hakeem might have a slight edge.

However, in terms of league importance and NBA significance, Kobe kills him. He's also got more rings and Hakeem never came close to 81 points in any game no matter how meaningless or Raptor-fied it was.

81 points is something that only one person had ever done before and that person physically overwhelmed and/or dwarfed his competition and caused the rules to be changed (kinda like comparing Roger Clemens to Cy Young). In all the years Larry Bird and MJ DOMINATED... never had 81 (and don't tell me they "didn't want to score that much in a game".. those guys were bent on competitive sh!t like "how much can I score tonight") In all the years of the unblockable skyhook, Kareem never had anywhere near 81.

Therefore... even if you COMPLETELY disregard the three prior rings with Shaq, he'd still be like the A-Rod of the NBA right now... and A-Rod is certainly a Top Ten All-time candidate despite his shortcomings and lack of jewelry.

Perhaps Hakeem should be in Dr. J's place, if anyone's.... but Dr. J's impact on the game was much more significant, and it's hard to say whether Dr. J couldn't have had a better career had he played more NBA years.

[rzp]

I wish Shaquille played in Wilt's era, your opinion would rapidly change.

too many people talking about wilt,russel
i know i know, its 11 rings, 20 rpg , 50 ppg , blah blah blah ...but look this simple numbers

RUSSEL : Height: 6'9" Weight: 215 lbs.
WILT : Height: 7'1" Weight: 250 lbs.
SHAQ : Height: 7'1'' Weight: 325 lbs.

Do u really think they can stop shaq?

:rollingeyes:

if they are top 5...shaq should be on top 5 too

[ReturnOfJimi]

I wish Shaquille played in Wilt's era, your opinion would rapidly change.
So would yours...

Allow me to explain.

Shaq would have dominated most of his competition in Wilt's era, but he wouldn't be as big and strong as he is today... in fact, he'd probably have gotten fatter at a younger age and certainly lacked the musclemass.

What I'm saying, is that "prime Shaq" (which lasted about 5 years as it was) would have NEVER happened with the weight training and nutrition back then. His injuries would've been a lot harder to deal with.

A strong 320 lbs Shaq (somewhere around his prime) likely wouldn't have been possible. He'd have either been put on a diet and ended up around 270(and ended up staying like "skinny rookie Shaq") or he'd have just eaten everything and gotten all lazy (and turned into a 375 Oliver Miller clone)

Also, even if Shaq is a strong 300 lbs back then (as in, if he's not a weak, fat 375 lbs) Wilt STILL dominates him.

Besides ALL of that... Wilt was better than Shaq is now. He would have killed Shaq overall.

There's footage of an over the hill Wilt blocking 2 consecutive Kareem skyhook attempts.

Wilt was known to have tremendous strength and agility for his height.

Wilt was shutdown by RUNNING Boston Celtics teams... a half-court Shaq team would have stood NO CHANCE against the running Russell Celtics or the half court style Wilt teams... as the running Celts were pretty much the only team that stood a shot against Wilt on a consistent basis.

[rzp]

So would yours...

Allow me to explain.

Shaq would have dominated most of his competition in Wilt's era, but he wouldn't be as big and strong as he is today... in fact, he'd probably have gotten fatter at a younger age and certainly lacked the musclemass.

What I'm saying, is that "prime Shaq" (which lasted about 5 years as it was) would have NEVER happened with the weight training and nutrition back then. His injuries would've been a lot harder to deal with.

A strong 320 lbs Shaq (somewhere around his prime) likely wouldn't have been possible. He'd have either been put on a diet and ended up around 270(and ended up staying like "skinny rookie Shaq") or he'd have just eaten everything and gotten all lazy (and turned into a 375 Oliver Miller clone)
Also, even if Shaq is a strong 300 lbs back then (as in, if he's not a weak, fat 375 lbs) Wilt STILL dominates him.

Besides ALL of that... Wilt was better than Shaq is now. He would have killed Shaq overall.

There's footage of an over the hill Wilt blocking 2 consecutive Kareem skyhook attempts.

Wilt was known to have tremendous strength and agility for his height.

Wilt was shutdown by RUNNING Boston Celtics teams... a half-court Shaq team would have stood NO CHANCE against the running Russell Celtics or the half court style Wilt teams... as the running Celts were pretty much the only team that stood a shot against Wilt on a consistent basis.



lol WHY THERE IS NO NEW SHAQs ON NBA???
there is alot of pussyes 7'1'' or more nowadays
typical
shaq hater

[ReturnOfJimi]

SHAQ : Height: 7'1'' Weight: 325 lbs.

Do u really think they can stop shaq?

Shaq wouldn't have been 7'1" 325 lbs without today's supplements, nutrition, weight training, and (perhaps) steroid-related products.

You saying if a 215 lbs Bill Russell played today he wouldn't actually be about 6'10" 245 by now?

Wilt would be 7'2" 265 if he were in his prime today.

...and I seem to remember a VERY skinny Tyson Chandler HANDLING Shaq in the Bulls series... Chandler CAN... but Wilt CAN'T?

[ReturnOfJimi]

WHY THERE IS NO NEW SHAQs ON NBA???
WHY DON'T LEARN TALK!!!!

There aren't any Wilts in the NBA, either... dumbsh!tz


there is alot of pussyes 7'1'' or more nowadays
typical
shaq hater

Typical Shaq Gooch-Sniffer.

[rzp]

Chandler????

ok ok SHAQ HATER

[ReturnOfJimi]

Chandler????

ok ok SHAQ HATER

Good, good...

"Keep phrases SHORT... Less pressure to form complete sentence."

[rzp]

Shaq wouldn't have been 7'1" 325 lbs without today's supplements, nutrition, weight training, and (perhaps) steroid-related products.

You saying if a 215 lbs Bill Russell played today he wouldn't actually be about 6'10" 245 by now?

Wilt would be 7'2" 265 if he were in his prime today.

...and I seem to remember a VERY skinny Tyson Chandler HANDLING Shaq in the Bulls series... Chandler CAN... but Wilt CAN'T?

BTW english is not my first language =] (learn how to manner)
so a 245 russel and a 265 wilt can stop shaq?? :rollingeyes:
SHAQ AVERAGED 20 ppg(UR SEASON AVERAGE) in THE EASY BULLS SERIES

AND OF COURSE I WAS TALKING ABOUT A PRIME SHAQ

[ReturnOfJimi]

BTW english is not my first language =]
Whatever language, it's babble.

If English is your second language, you might want to argue with people in your first language.

That's probably a good idea for any language.

[rzp]

Whatever language, it's babble.

If English is your second language, you might want to argue with people in your first language.

That's probably a good idea for any language.

sry there

[indenial]

Doesn't matter because niether Wilt or Shaq could remotely compare to Sabonis when he was in his prime!!! So quit arguing when Sabas was the best .....thanks!:rockon:

[ReturnOfJimi]

[QUOTE]sry there

[rzp]

Argue with someone who speaks in your native tongue, Tiago.

dude wtf is tiago?

[XxNeXuSxX]

dude wtf is tiago?

No, he's right though, you are an idiot if you think Shaq is better than wilt.


Editing Grammar

[ReturnOfJimi]

No, he's right though, your an idiot if you think Shaq is better than wilt.

Moreover.. arguing with someone who doesn't speak English is like playing basketball with a little kid... you can't block every shot or grab every rebound, even though you could... and you might even have to let him win because the basis is so unfair to begin with.

This is why I can't go on with this.

[rzp]

No, he's right though, your an idiot if you think Shaq is better than wilt.

well actually im not looking for ur recognize

Shaq is better than Wilt IMO

=]

next unmanner plz ...

[ReturnOfJimi]

next unmanner plz ...

See what I mean... How does one properly respond to gobbledygook?

[rzp]

Moreover.. arguing with someone who doesn't speak English is like playing basketball with a little kid... you can't block every shot or grab every rebound, even though you could... and you might even have to let him win because the basis is so unfair to begin with.

This is why I can't go on with this.

THATS RIGHT AS I SAID IGNORE ME...
NICE ARGUE "CHANDLER STOPPING SHAQ"
U REALLY OUTPLAYED ME

[StarJordan]

Moreover.. arguing with someone who doesn't speak English


tu es un foolo pendejo !

[ReturnOfJimi]

THATS RIGHT AS I SAID IGNORE ME...
NICE ARGUE "CHANDLER STOPPING SHAQ"
U REALLY OUTPLAYED ME

TRYING.... BUT....CAN'T ..... IGNORE...... CAPSLOCK.

Shaq gets his 20 on Tyson Chandler (who got injured before Shaq started playing particularly well, so that's not even really correct)

...but somehow he keeps up with Wlit's 50 per game?

You are a joke... and you're an even bigger joke for arguing in your second language.

Unmanner! :applause:

[XxNeXuSxX]

well actually im not looking for ur recognize

Shaq is better than Wilt IMO

=]

next unmanner plz ...

Unmanner? Please man, you ruin your credibility when you say this crap like Shaq>Wilt. Let me guess, Kobe>Jordan too?

Stop it.

[indenial]

Sabonis in his prime is better than both so you both are fools !!!!

[XxNeXuSxX]

Sabonis probably could have been up there with people like DROB and Hakeem in his prime.

[rzp]

TRYING.... BUT....CAN'T ..... IGNORE...... CAPSLOCK.

Shaq gets his 20 on Tyson Chandler (who got injured before Shaq started playing particularly well, so that's not even really correct)

...but somehow he keeps up with Wlit's 50 per game?

You are a joke... and you're an even bigger joke for arguing in your second language.

Unmanner! :applause:

"This is why I can't go on with this."?

well u still didnt ignore me :no:

look this
1st game against the BULLS
2006-04-22 NBA MIA* CHI 1 37 11 16 0 0 5 8 3 13 16 1 2 5 6 5 27 1- 0


last game against the BULLS
2006-05-04 NBA MIA CHI 1 39 13 24 0 0 4 8 8 12 20 5 0 2 4 3 30 4- 2

why are u talking about chandler "excuse" injury ? how it changes
Shaq

[rzp]

Unmanner? Please man, you ruin your credibility when you say this crap like Shaq>Wilt. Let me guess, Kobe>Jordan too?

Stop it.

why is that terrible ... u think Chamb can average 50 ppg in the 90s or 00s?

[Psileas]

Shaq
West
Kobe
Dr. J
Mikan (will be supplanted by LeBron)

Probly forgetting someone important.

The Barkleys, Kareems, Hakeems, Malones, McHales, Duncans, Waltons, Isiahs, Gervins, Iversons, Wades etc. are in the next class, IMO.

I agreed on many of your points, but not the categories. Kareem should be a legit GOAT candidate, with all his awards, honors, records, rings. There's no way I'd put any of them above him, especially Kobe or Mikan. Hakeem would also be higher, followed by the Malones, Duncan and Isiah.

[disco]

why is that terrible ... u think Chamb can average 50 ppg in the 90s or 00s?

Of course Wilt wouldn't average 50 in the 90s or 00s. However, he is the most dominant player the league has ever seen. Even more unstoppable than Shaq. More dominating than Kareem, more dominating than Mikan was in his era. Wilt is the most dominating ever. Period. But does that make him GOAT? Not necessarily because there have beem two guys with initials M.J. who ruled basketball without having to be as dominating as Wilt. Jordan wasn't more dominating than Wilt, but still on my opinion a better player. You don't have to be the most unstoppable to be the best.

Nevertheless, Wilt should be above Shaq in everyone's list. I think the only two players who can be ranked above Wilt are Jordan and Magic.

[RainierBeachPoet]

in terms of changing the game with his revolutionary shot blocking (didnt exist before him as coaches didnt want players to leave their feet)

and his understanding of the team game and championships (eleven in 13 years)

bill russell is the GOAT

:bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown: to RUSS

[The Mamba]

in terms of changing the game with his revolutionary shot blocking (didnt exist before him as coaches didnt want players to leave their feet)

and his understanding of the team game and championships (eleven in 13 years)

bill russell is the GOAT

:bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown: to RUSS
Thank You. Jesus Christ, I was beginning to wonder if anyone here actually knew anything about basketball. Russel was the best big man, to ever play the game.

[RainierBeachPoet]

Of course Wilt wouldn't average 50 in the 90s or 00s. However, he is the most dominant player the league has ever seen. Even more unstoppable than Shaq. More dominating than Kareem, more dominating than Mikan was in his era. Wilt is the most dominating ever. Period. But does that make him GOAT? Not necessarily because there have beem two guys with initials M.J. who ruled basketball without having to be as dominating as Wilt. Jordan wasn't more dominating than Wilt, but still on my opinion a better player. You don't have to be the most unstoppable to be the best.

Nevertheless, Wilt should be above Shaq in everyone's list. I think the only two players who can be ranked above Wilt are Jordan and Magic.

dont forget that there were only 9 teams when wilt played. imagine the nba now with only 108 players.... the league was much more competitive within itself then

it is hard to compare apples to oranges...

[RidonKs]

Thank You. Jesus Christ, I was beginning to wonder if anyone here actually knew anything about basketball. Russel was the best big man, to ever play the game.

Well I agree Bill did change the game forever, I think best big man ever is a stretch. No doubt is he one of the best big men, and possibly (probably) the best DEFENSIVE big man ever. And don't get me wrong, he was no slouch on offense as well, but there have been a bunch of other C's, (Hakeem, Wilt, Kareem just to name a few) who were almost as good on D, and completely dominated the offensive end as well. I didn't really get to see Hakeem play live in his prime (wasn't a huge fan) but from what I've seen in videos and such, this man has become a HUGE favourite of mine, and IMO, is a better all around player than Russel (although not as much of a winner, but c'mon, who is?).

[RidonKs]

dont forget that there were only 9 teams when wilt played. imagine the nba now with only 108 players.... the league was much more competitive within itself then

it is hard to compare apples to oranges...

Wow, shows how much I know about the history of the game, because I had no clue that was true. I knew there were a lot less teams, because of the ABA, but I was thinking 15 or 16.

(Edit: Heh, weren't you the one to make the thread about if there were only 10 teams. And that led to a few mock drafts and so on and so forth.)

[RainierBeachPoet]

Thank You. Jesus Christ, I was beginning to wonder if anyone here actually knew anything about basketball. Russel was the best big man, to ever play the game.

wilt could be argued strongly in other ways as the best big man (which is a different question from the GOAT)

btw-- i just posted on your thread, What Player or Players, Influenced you or caught your Imagination the Most? the best question asked here in a long time!!!:applause: :applause:

[RainierBeachPoet]

Wow, shows how much I know about the history of the game, because I had no clue that was true. I knew there were a lot less teams, because of the ABA, but I was thinking 15 or 16.

(Edit: Heh, weren't you the one to make the thread about if there were only 10 teams. And that led to a few mock drafts and so on and so forth.)

it jumped up over the years... in 1968 there were 12 teams

check out: http://www.basketball-reference.com/

[RidonKs]

it jumped up over the years... in 1968 there were 12 teams

check out: http://www.basketball-reference.com/

:cheers:

[The Mamba]

Well I agree Bill did change the game forever, I think best big man ever is a stretch. No doubt is he one of the best big men, and possibly (probably) the best DEFENSIVE big man ever. And don't get me wrong, he was no slouch on offense as well, but there have been a bunch of other C's, (Hakeem, Wilt, Kareem just to name a few) who were almost as good on D, and completely dominated the offensive end as well. I didn't really get to see Hakeem play live in his prime (wasn't a huge fan) but from what I've seen in videos and such, this man has become a HUGE favourite of mine, and IMO, is a better all around player than Russel (although not as much of a winner, but c'mon, who is?).
I see your point.

[Gotterdammerung]

Thank You. Jesus Christ, I was beginning to wonder if anyone here actually knew anything about basketball. Russel was the best big man, to ever play the game.
Russell's game greatly influenced the game because he was the first to jump in order to block shots, but here's a better criteria for the "best bigman ever:"

The NBA actually changed more rules to limit Wilt's effectiveness than any other player in the history of the game. widening the lane in an attempt to keep him and his finger-roll farther from the goal
disallow offensive-goaltending
outlaw inbound passes over the backboard
disallow running start from behing the foul line during free throw attempts (yes, wilt dunked them)

[laker24]

earvin magic johnson is the greatest basketball player of all-time. he was in the nba finals 9 times in 12 years before he retired the first time and won five lost two becuz of injuries to the team.

[indenial]

I'll say this again in his prime Aryvdas Sabonis from Lithuania is the GOAT ask the Eastern Hemisphere!!!

[Gotterdammerung]

I'll say this again in his prime Aryvdas Sabonis from Lithuania is the GOAT ask the Eastern Hemisphere!!!

Heh. No matter how many times you repeat this, indenial, what Sabonis could've been is largely hypothetical, if he hadn't shredded both achilles tendons and if he had played in the NBA right after getting drafted in '86.


By the way, another couple of reasons why i think Wilt is the better center than Bill Russell:

Size: He was taller and stronger, and probably faster, if only early in his career. I don't know about quickness, though, and will have to give Russ the edge there.
Boards: every inch as good at rebounding, if not better. He did average 28 rebounds per game against Russ, after all.
Inside scoring: Nothing impacts a defense more than a multi-skilled big man.

[indenial]

Heh. No matter how many times you repeat this, indenial, what Sabonis could've been is largely hypothetical, if he hadn't shredded both achilles tendons and if he had played in the NBA right after getting drafted in '86.


By the way, another couple of reasons why i think Wilt is the better center than Bill Russell:

Size: He was taller and stronger, and probably faster, if only early in his career. I don't know about quickness, though, and will have to give Russ the edge there.
Boards: every inch as good at rebounding, if not better. He did average 28 rebounds per game against Russ, after all.
Inside scoring: Nothing impacts a defense more than a multi-skilled big man.

Sabonis steamrolled over the American centers in the Olympics?? Same ones listed throughout this thrized!

[Gotterdammerung]

Yes, that was David Robinson right out of college, who had 19 points and 12 rebounds. Sabonis had only 13 points. What was your point again? :roll:

[dejordan]

earvin magic johnson is the greatest basketball player of all-time. he was in the nba finals 9 times in 12 years before he retired the first time and won five lost two becuz of injuries to the team.
kareem could be the greatest player of all time. he went to nine finals and won 6 of them.

i don't recall ANYONE else since 1980 playing with the amount of talent those amazing lakers teams had. should that be held against magic, the greatest point guard and most versatile offensive player of all time? no. but it sure would have helped a lot of other careers to have that kind of support. if jordan or bird or drexler or any other high level all-star perimeter player had joined that team that player would have had an excellent chance to get 5 rings in 12 years. it is awful about HIV dragging magic out of the game early because he could have kept his laker's squad in contention for at least 2 more years. still he won every title with kareem, the best center of his era, and you've got to think that other great guards could have done very well with the phenominal lakers teams from 1979 through 1990. hell jordan won six titles and never had a single all-star post player on his team. cartwright could score points, but he was inefficient and knicks teams were never very good when he was the first option. if jordan (who, when doug collins made him a point guard at the end of 1988-89, averaged 33 points and 11 rebounds wiith dave corsine, charles oakley, a rookie pippen, and john paxson starting with him), had kareem, worthy, ac green, and scott starting with him, i'd guess he'd win a title every year. other guys might be less successful, but they'd certainly be in a better position than if kievin duckworth or john koncak were their starting centers. not to take anything away from magic, the greatest point guard of all time, but the fact that he went to 9 finals in 12 years on the greatest team of all time doesn't prove that he's better than other amazing players, just that he's one of them.

[RainierBeachPoet]

Russell's game greatly influenced the game because he was the first to jump in order to block shots, but here's a better criteria for the "best bigman ever:"

The NBA actually changed more rules to limit Wilt's effectiveness than any other player in the history of the game. widening the lane in an attempt to keep him and his finger-roll farther from the goal
disallow offensive-goaltending
outlaw inbound passes over the backboard
disallow running start from behing the foul line during free throw attempts (yes, wilt dunked them)

strong points gotter! :cheers:

i would also mention wilts staggering records

but even with the change in rules, russell still made people think differently on how it is played. a few changes of rules couldnt stop that

[indenial]

Yes, that was David Robinson right out of college, who had 19 points and 12 rebounds. Sabonis had only 13 points. What was your point again? :roll:


Sorry No, you've got your statistics wrong sorry. The admiral was abused by Sabonis more than once in the Olympics look up the next time they squared off dude!

[Gotterdammerung]

strong points gotter! :cheers: i would also mention wilts staggering records
Check my first post here. :D (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=145597&postcount=23)

but even with the change in rules, russell still made people think differently on how it is played. a few changes of rules couldnt stop that

True, but consider this hypothetical: had russell been far too dominant, with his shot-blocking, they would've implemented the no-jump rule.

Yes, Russ did change the game, no question, and for the better. It's just that whenever i find myself in those sort of arguments, "whos the best," i look at the impact of the player under the question, and if his (or her) dominance led to new rules that were put in effect in order to level the playing field, then that proves his (or her) dominance far more than any other statistic. :applause:

[Gotterdammerung]

Sorry No, you've got your statistics wrong sorry. The admiral was abused by Sabonis more than once in the Olympics look up the next time they squared off dude!

No, i'm pretty sure i have the correct statistics. I can supply you the required links, but I don't think i am obliged.

And why don't you do your homework and list the "abuse," and show us all the money?

After all, the floor is yours!:D

[laker24]

kareem could be the greatest player of all time. he went to nine finals and won 6 of them.

i don't recall ANYONE else since 1980 playing with the amount of talent those amazing lakers teams had. should that be held against magic, the greatest point guard and most versatile offensive player of all time? no. but it sure would have helped a lot of other careers to have that kind of support. if jordan or bird or drexler or any other high level all-star perimeter player had joined that team that player would have had an excellent chance to get 5 rings in 12 years. it is awful about HIV dragging magic out of the game early because he could have kept his laker's squad in contention for at least 2 more years. still he won every title with kareem, the best center of his era, and you've got to think that other great guards could have done very well with the phenominal lakers teams from 1979 through 1990. hell jordan won six titles and never had a single all-star post player on his team. cartwright could score points, but he was inefficient and knicks teams were never very good when he was the first option. if jordan (who, when doug collins made him a point guard at the end of 1988-89, averaged 33 points and 11 rebounds wiith dave corsine, charles oakley, a rookie pippen, and john paxson starting with him), had kareem, worthy, ac green, and scott starting with him, i'd guess he'd win a title every year. other guys might be less successful, but they'd certainly be in a better position than if kievin duckworth or john koncak were their starting centers. not to take anything away from magic, the greatest point guard of all time, but the fact that he went to 9 finals in 12 years on the greatest team of all time doesn't prove that he's better than other amazing players, just that he's one of them.


yeah magic played with alot of talent but the competition in the 80's was tougher than the 90's, larry bird played with alot of talent, drexler had talent, the pistons, 76ers, bucs,sonics, houston, mavs and more. when its comes to magic everybody brings up his teammates, when it comes to jordan he did it alone....jordan had three point shoters all round him, very good defenders on his team rebounders and on of the 50 greaters players.
if jordan was on those laker teams would we know who b scott is, would james worthy be james worthy. magic made the players around him better. im not saying jordan would have but know body did it better than magic

[Carbine]

yeah magic played with alot of talent but the competition in the 80's was tougher than the 90's, larry bird played with alot of talent, drexler had talent, the pistons, 76ers, bucs,sonics, houston, mavs and more. when its comes to magic everybody brings up his teammates, when it comes to jordan he did it alone....jordan had three point shoters all round him, very good defenders on his team rebounders and on of the 50 greaters players.
if jordan was on those laker teams would we know who b scott is, would james worthy be james worthy. magic made the players around him better. im not saying jordan would have but know body did it better than magic

It's not news to me that Magic made his teammates better on the floor tha Jordan. That shouldn't be news to anyone, actually.

However, you also have to take in account that Jordan never played with a dominating post player like Kareem to open up driving lanes for Jordan, he also never played with someone explosive like Worthy to get out on the break with.

[jan803]

It's not news to me that Magic made his teammates better on the floor tha Jordan. That shouldn't be news to anyone, actually.

However, you also have to take in account that Jordan never played with a dominating post player like Kareem to open up driving lanes for Jordan, he also never played with someone explosive like Worthy to get out on the break with.

and comparing the triangle to the fast break...that's the way showtime was. magic ran the fast break as well as it could be run.

there would be no showtime w/jordan on the lakers.

comparing those offenses and the fact that magic's the point and mj's the shooting guard help this either.

[Y2Gezee]

It's not news to me that Magic made his teammates better on the floor tha Jordan. That shouldn't be news to anyone, actually.

However, you also have to take in account that Jordan never played with a dominating post player like Kareem to open up driving lanes for Jordan, he also never played with someone explosive like Worthy to get out on the break with.


Nobody's saying Magic is as good a scorer as Mike. So the driving lane thing is meaningless. Not to mention Magic still played great when Kareem was on decline and made it to the finals on a injured team anyways without Kareem.
But I still think Mikes team during the 2nd 3peat can compete in the 80s, and can compare with Magics teams (what they lacked offensively, they make up for defensively in the comparison) and had a great built in system with the triangle and many specialists.

And it would've been fun to see how things would've turned out had Magic not had to retire early. With Worthy less injured (along with other teammates) and Divac improving and being more comfortable with their new coach. Mike may have been trailing Magic in rings. That's simply speculation, but not out of the question.

And I think Magics list of intangibles compared to MJs makes them =atleast

[Carbine]

Nobody's saying Magic is as good a scorer as Mike.

You're right, but at the end of the day Mikes' APG, FG% & overall scoring effiecency would be even higher had had Jordan played with a dominating big man like Kareem - in essence making his edge in scoring that much more.

Face it, Jordan could get by his defenser anytime he wanted... you think the bigs wanna rotate off Kareem to Jordan? That's an easy two points. If they lay off he gets a dunk or a bunny shot, instead of the pull-up jumper Jordan was so good at. As good as he was FG%-wise from that area, it's even better in the bunny/dunking area. We may be talking about a 55% career shooter, from a guard!

[Y2Gezee]

You're right, but at the end of the day Mikes' APG, FG% & overall scoring effiecency would be even higher had had Jordan played with a dominating big man like Kareem - in essence making his edge in scoring that much more.

Face it, Jordan could get by his defenser anytime he wanted... you think the bigs wanna rotate off Kareem to Jordan? That's an easy two points. If they lay off he gets a dunk or a bunny shot, instead of the pull-up jumper Jordan was so good at. As good as he was FG%-wise from that area, it's even better in the bunny/dunking area. We may be talking about a 55% career shooter, from a guard!


I dont know if it makes that huge a difference in who's better. It would possibly make it easier for MJ to score, but he wouldn't score as much IMO. Early on Magic defered to Kareem a lot, and MJ would have too as Kareem demanded it and the whole team would've had a problem with anything else. MJs assists may have consistently been around 6-7 still, with his scoring decreasing to around 24-27 on average. I feel in a situation with a Jordan/Worthy/Kareem who'd have ran the offense, it would've been all over the place without a guy with Magics vision and floor leadership.

[RainierBeachPoet]

Check my first post here. :D (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=145597&postcount=23)


True, but consider this hypothetical: had russell been far too dominant, with his shot-blocking, they would've implemented the no-jump rule.

Yes, Russ did change the game, no question, and for the better. It's just that whenever i find myself in those sort of arguments, "whos the best," i look at the impact of the player under the question, and if his (or her) dominance led to new rules that were put in effect in order to level the playing field, then that proves his (or her) dominance far more than any other statistic. :applause:

maybe true... i will ponder it more

i also think that the anti-wilt sentiment played into the changes. his statement "nobody loves goliath" coupled with the racism of the day and his own egotistical personality were all factors for the rules changes too-- not just leveling the playing field.

also, i think if they could have changed the rule about shotblocking, they might have. but how difficult would that have been to enforce without changing the nature of the game. i cant imagine the game of hoops without jumping (even in the days when the set shot dominated)

[Rasheed1]

Shaq
West
Kobe
Dr. J
Mikan (will be supplanted by LeBron)

How the hell is kobe up there before Duncan & Hakeem? Crackhead logic

[RainierBeachPoet]

jordan worshippers ought to take note that his team couldnt do much when faced against the celtics and pistons in the late 80s. there is a reason that those bulls teams were mockingly referred to as "michael and the jordanaires." fun to watch, but will fold in the playoffs against complete teams

it was only with the development of pippen as a perfect compliment to jordan and the addition of proper role players that they finally got over the hump over the aging pistons. michael couldnt do it alone; it took him six years of heartache to learn this and get over the hump

with magic, he had a cast from the beginning who only needed his skill as a point to be successful; he knew right away because of his position as a point that it is the team game that wins in the playoffs. he built his whole career off this hoops wisdom

[dejordan]

I dont know if it makes that huge a difference in who's better. It would possibly make it easier for MJ to score, but he wouldn't score as much IMO. Early on Magic defered to Kareem a lot, and MJ would have too as Kareem demanded it and the whole team would've had a problem with anything else. MJs assists may have consistently been around 6-7 still, with his scoring decreasing to around 24-27 on average. I feel in a situation with a Jordan/Worthy/Kareem who'd have ran the offense, it would've been all over the place without a guy with Magics vision and floor leadership.
so let's agree that offensively it would at least be close... can we do that? jordan wouldn't run the break as well as magic, but he was no slouch in running the break and did lead the league in steals multiple times. he also average 11 assists a game against the lakers in the 1991 finals because LA kept doubling him off of paxson and grant, the same way teams doubled magic off of scott and green. jordan would probably have averaged something like 27 and 11 for his career with those teammates. BUT on the defensive side of the ball all of the sudden they would have a three guard rotation of michael jordan (9 time all defensive 1st team), michael cooper (the pippen of his era - defended all the best swingmen), and byron scott who covered magic's ass by defending little point guards and athletic shooting guards who could run circles around him. so we've got an offense that's similar, with a leader that's just as confident, who inspired guys like luc longley and jud buchler to championship intensity, but we've now got a defense with absolutely no holes. AND jordan was more durable than magic. all those years of tremendous playoff runs led to magic being sub-prime against the pistons in 1989.

again i'm not guaranteeing that the lakers would be better or worse with michael or anyone else at the helm than magic johnson, but there's certainly the possibility that they would have been just as good or better. on the other hand, would magic have been able to carry those six bulls squads to titles? they hung their hats on defense so probably not BUT you'd think a good coach and gm would get him different talent and a different system, so who the hell knows what teams he would have wound up with if he'd been drafted by chicago in 1984?

anyway it's very difficult to say who's better without considering the make-up of the individual's teams. i've got a pro-jordan agenda. he's my boy and i'll find a thousand reasons why he's the best ever, but no amount of guess work could switch the draft dates of any two players and let us watch them play out different careers, and that would really be the only fair way to do it.

[Loki]

jordan worshippers ought to take note that his team couldnt do much when faced against the celtics and pistons in the late 80s. there is a reason that those bulls teams were mockingly referred to as "michael and the jordanaires." fun to watch, but will fold in the playoffs against complete teams

it was only with the development of pippen as a perfect compliment to jordan and the addition of proper role players that they finally got over the hump over the aging pistons. michael couldnt do it alone; it took him six years of heartache to learn this and get over the hump

His teams "couldn't do much" against the Celtics and Pistons (two of the greatest teams ever, mind you) because he was playing with a bunch of scrubs until the '89-'90 season. Even after Pippen and Grant developed a bit in the late 80's, they were still liabilities against Detroit, and they never played well against them.

Jordan almost singlehandedly pushed Detroit to 6 games in the '89 ECF, playing them tougher than either the Lakers or Celts that year, with Pippen averaging 13.1/7.6/3.9 on 46% shooting in the postseason and only 11/7/3 on 41.5% shooting versus Detroit. A player is supposed to beat a championship caliber team when his "second best player" is putting up those kinds of dismal numbers? Sorry, but no. As for Jordan, he was busy carrying the Bulls, averaging 35/7/7.6 in the postseason and 29.8/5.5/6.5 against a Detroit defense designed specifically to stop him.

The following year, the Bulls again played Detroit tough in the ECF, pushing them to a deciding 7th game. Pippen, who had played very well in the playoffs up to that point (19.2/7.2/5.5 on 53% shooting) averaged only 16.3/6.9/4.3 on 44% shooting against Detroit. Jordan was busy averaging 37/7/7 in the postseason and 32.1/7.1/6.3 on 49% shooting versus Detroit. Again, Jordan was supposed to win with his best teammate performing that poorly? No. This is the type of play Jordan always got from Pippen and Grant versus Detroit prior to the '90-'91 season:


http://motorcitybadboys.com/box90eastconffinalsgm7.html

Fault him for not winning all you want, but he competed with some of the best teams in history with an absolutely sh!tty team. Anyone can see by the numbers that him not winning was not his fault; no one would have done any better in his poistion. As you can see from the link above, in the pivotal game 7, his teammates shot 23.8% (15-63) from the floor while Jordan put up 31/8/9 and shot 48.1% (again, despite them being keyed in on him), scored 42% of the team's points, dished out 60% of the team's assists, and grabbed nearly as many rebounds as Pippen and Cartwright combined.


But yeah, we should really hold the fact that he didn't beat those Detroit teams against him. :rolleyes:

[indenial]

Sabonis

[RainierBeachPoet]

His teams "couldn't do much" against the Celtics and Pistons (two of the greatest teams ever, mind you) because he was playing with a bunch of scrubs until the '89-'90 season. Even after Pippen and Grant developed a bit in the late 80's, they were still liabilities against Detroit, and they never played well against them.

Jordan almost singlehandedly pushed Detroit to 6 games in the '89 ECF, playing them tougher than either the Lakers or Celts that year, with Pippen averaging 13.1/7.6/3.9 on 46% shooting in the postseason and only 11/7/3 on 41.5% shooting versus Detroit. A player is supposed to beat a championship caliber team when his "second best player" is putting up those kinds of dismal numbers? Sorry, but no. As for Jordan, he was busy carrying the Bulls, averaging 35/7/7.6 in the postseason and 29.8/5.5/6.5 against a Detroit defense designed specifically to stop him.

The following year, the Bulls again played Detroit tough in the ECF, pushing them to a deciding 7th game. Pippen, who had played very well in the playoffs up to that point (19.2/7.2/5.5 on 53% shooting) averaged only 16.3/6.9/4.3 on 44% shooting against Detroit. Jordan was busy averaging 37/7/7 in the postseason and 32.1/7.1/6.3 on 49% shooting versus Detroit. Again, Jordan was supposed to win with his best teammate performing that poorly? No. This is the type of play Jordan always got from Pippen and Grant versus Detroit prior to the '90-'91 season:


http://motorcitybadboys.com/box90eastconffinalsgm7.html

Fault him for not winning all you want, but he competed with some of the best teams in history with an absolutely sh!tty team. Anyone can see by the numbers that him not winning was not his fault; no one would have done any better in his poistion. As you can see from the link above, in the pivotal game 7, his teammates shot 23.8% (15-63) from the floor while Jordan put up 31/8/9 and shot 48.1% (again, despite them being keyed in on him), scored 42% of the team's points, dished out 60% of the team's assists, and grabbed nearly as many rebounds as Pippen and Cartwright combined.


But yeah, we should really hold the fact that he didn't beat those Detroit teams against him. :rolleyes:


good points inD-- i agree with you-- jordan carried those teams thus the michael and the jordanaires moniker

its like wilt carried his teams and still could not beat the celtics when it counted so the classic argument:

whose the greatest: russell or wilt?

[ReturnOfJimi]

How the hell is kobe up there before Duncan & Hakeem? Crackhead logic

F*ck you.

[Y2Gezee]

so let's agree that offensively it would at least be close... can we do that? jordan wouldn't run the break as well as magic, but he was no slouch in running the break and did lead the league in steals multiple times. he also average 11 assists a game against the lakers in the 1991 finals because LA kept doubling him off of paxson and grant, the same way teams doubled magic off of scott and green. jordan would probably have averaged something like 27 and 11 for his career with those teammates. BUT on the defensive side of the ball all of the sudden they would have a three guard rotation of michael jordan (9 time all defensive 1st team), michael cooper (the pippen of his era - defended all the best swingmen), and byron scott who covered magic's ass by defending little point guards and athletic shooting guards who could run circles around him. so we've got an offense that's similar, with a leader that's just as confident, who inspired guys like luc longley and jud buchler to championship intensity, but we've now got a defense with absolutely no holes. AND jordan was more durable than magic. all those years of tremendous playoff runs led to magic being sub-prime against the pistons in 1989.

again i'm not guaranteeing that the lakers would be better or worse with michael or anyone else at the helm than magic johnson, but there's certainly the possibility that they would have been just as good or better. on the other hand, would magic have been able to carry those six bulls squads to titles? they hung their hats on defense so probably not BUT you'd think a good coach and gm would get him different talent and a different system, so who the hell knows what teams he would have wound up with if he'd been drafted by chicago in 1984?

anyway it's very difficult to say who's better without considering the make-up of the individual's teams. i've got a pro-jordan agenda. he's my boy and i'll find a thousand reasons why he's the best ever, but no amount of guess work could switch the draft dates of any two players and let us watch them play out different careers, and that would really be the only fair way to do it.


No chance the Lakers are as good and definately not better. Jordan is a terrific passer. But he doesn't even come close to having the ability to run a team like a pg, and certainly not a pg like Magic (the GOAT of that position no doubt).

A SYSTEM halfcourt offense like the triangle was great for Jordan. For my belief is that Jordan would have a tough time allowing a pg to run things if he ever got a good one. And Jordan simply can't NATURALLY run a halfcourt offense. Using the triangle to put people where they need to be, use their shooters well, and utilize their big men and the shooters to help open things up for Mike and Pip was needed.

I'll agree that all things considered they are compareable offensively. Jordan a great scorer, but Magic a great scorer when he needs to be and a amazing creator

[Voice of Reason]

How the hell is kobe up there before Duncan & Hakeem? Crackhead logic

Makes you want to start selling crack dont it? Got potential buyers on this board. Musicians are known to dabble in drugs heavily. Dope man Dope man!

:roll:

[Br0wn_Jeezy]

jordan was the second best behind earvin johnson

Are youu crazzy.!!??!!!

[Loki]

No chance the Lakers are as good and definately not better.

How can you possibly know that? Their entire identity would be different, and there's no way to tell what sort of success they'd meet with. You're trying to fit a round peg in a square hole, so to speak -- that is, you're trying to imagine Jordan filling Magic's exact role on those Lakers squads, which he couldn't do any more than Magic could have filled Jordan's role on the Bulls.

As for Jordan running a halfcourt offense, he seemed to do okay before the triangle came along to the tune of 8 apg in 1989. Granted, he wasn't a natural PG, but he certainly could have averaged 7.5-8.5 (possibly 9) apg annually if that was his role on the team and that team was as stacked as the Lakers.

[BlackMoses]

For me the GOAT list goes as follows (in order):

Wilt Chamberlain- the true GOAT and MDE (sorry Shaq)
Bill Russell- as Bill Walton puts it, "the biggest winner in the history of team sport." He's got all the intangibles, along with being a player-coach (something I give a lot of credit to).
Michael Jordan- Definitely the best non-bigman ever.
Kareem Abdul-Jabar- gets seriously underrated by just about everybody
Magic Johnson- Tends to get a little too much credit, but obviously a hell of a player
Larry Bird- No explanation necessary
Oscar Robertson- He's a player that would be great in any generation
Jerry West- 60 footers!
Shaq- the new school MDE

just miss the cut... Dr. J, Rick Barry, George Mikan, Tim Duncan, Karl Malone, Bob Cousy

[RainierBeachPoet]

For me the GOAT list goes as follows (in order):

Wilt Chamberlain- the true GOAT and MDE (sorry Shaq)
Bill Russell- as Bill Walton puts it, "the biggest winner in the history of team sport." He's got all the intangibles, along with being a player-coach (something I give a lot of credit to).
Michael Jordan- Definitely the best non-bigman ever.
Kareem Abdul-Jabar- gets seriously underrated by just about everybody
Magic Johnson- Tends to get a little too much credit, but obviously a hell of a player
Larry Bird- No explanation necessary
Oscar Robertson- He's a player that would be great in any generation
Jerry West- 60 footers!
Shaq- the new school MDE

just miss the cut... Dr. J, Rick Barry, George Mikan, Tim Duncan, Karl Malone, Bob Cousy


i suppose the question ought to be the greatest _______ of all time

there are different ways to judge greatness

and different eras of pro hoops

[jordan23]

jamalzees the crawfordes the clucheees

[KnicksFan4Life]

After MJ who is he GOAT

Jamalz Crwafowd izz teh cllutchezzy wheeenzz hezz winnndsszz upssz forrrzs dat winddzmillezzy dunnkzszezzy.

[RainierBeachPoet]

How can you possibly know that? Their entire identity would be different, and there's no way to tell what sort of success they'd meet with. You're trying to fit a round peg in a square hole, so to speak -- that is, you're trying to imagine Jordan filling Magic's exact role on those Lakers squads, which he couldn't do any more than Magic could have filled Jordan's role on the Bulls.

As for Jordan running a halfcourt offense, he seemed to do okay before the triangle came along to the tune of 8 apg in 1989. Granted, he wasn't a natural PG, but he certainly could have averaged 7.5-8.5 (possibly 9) apg annually if that was his role on the team and that team was as stacked as the Lakers.

i agree with you loki. magic brought those laker teams together in a way that probably no other pg could have done.

jordans strength was that he was so good that it took the pressure off his teammates. they ran that triangle most of the game, but when the game was on the line, jordan took over

[HBKMGa]

Bird>Magic

magic > bird

[Round Mound]

Wilt

[ThaRegul8r]

Why did someone dredge up a thread that hadn't had a response in almost FOUR YEARS???? Do people really have nothing better to do than to go back and look at years-old threads and resurrect them?

:facepalm

[SinJackal]

Bill Russell

Hands down.

My man has 11 rings, and only 10 fingers.

So where's he putting the 11th ring?

. . .on second thought, I don't want to know.

[ThaRegul8r]

Bill Russell

Hands down.

My man has 11 rings, and only 10 fingers.

So where's he putting the 11th ring?

. . .on second thought, I don't want to know.

Since he has too many to wear at one time, he usually just wears the first ring ('57) and the last ring ('69).

[jlauber]

Why did someone dredge up a thread that hadn't had a response in almost FOUR YEARS???? Do people really have nothing better to do than to go back and look at years-old threads and resurrect them?

:facepalm

Since it WAS brought up...how about we take a different approach?

WHO is the REAL GOAT (and not just assume that it is MJ)?

I'll go with the guy that has 11 rings. There are meaningless records...and then there is that one. IMHO, 11 rings will be a record that will NEVER be broken.

[whatever666]

Actually, i think Bill Russel is "GOAT".

11

[SinJackal]

Since it WAS brought up...how about we take a different approach?

WHO is the REAL GOAT (and not just assume that it is MJ)?

I'll go with the guy that has 11 rings. There are meaningless records...and then there is that one. IMHO, 11 rings will be a record that will NEVER be broken.

It's still MJ. 10 straight scoring titles, arguably best player in league for nearly his entire career. 6 straight titles in 6 tries. Most consistant player at bombing on teams game after game in a series with rarely any games that could be considered less than above average. Considered best player ever by nearly every former basketball player. Not to mention put up ridiculous numbers even in the modern era, with a massive collection of awards.

and FYI, Phil Jackson has 11 rings, so if he wins another, that record is broken.

Though, I do think people don't give Russel enough props, just because he wasn't a bigtime scorer.

[whatever666]

Anyways here is how i have it:

1. Bill Russell
2. Michael Jordan
3. Wilt Chamberlain
4. Kareem Abdul Jabbar
5. Magic Johnson
6. Larry Bird
7. Oscar Robertson
8. Hakeem Olajuwon
9. Shaquille Oneal
10. John Havlicek / Jerry West

[ThaRegul8r]

He would have won 5-10 Defensive Player of the Year awards

Minimum of 5? He was being called the GOAT defensive player the league had ever seen beginning year one:

[QUOTE]Although he has yet to play a full season in professional ranks, his coach, the Boston Celtics

[jlauber]

[QUOTE=whatever666]Actually, i think Bill Russel is "GOAT".

11

[KingBeasley08]

I think it is Kareem but I won't lie. I do think Bird is better than Magic

[jlauber]

I think it is Kareem but I won't lie. I do think Bird is better than Magic

I don't agree with you...but your opinion is as good as anyone's. And, I'm sure there are posters that agree with you, too.

[jlauber]

It's still MJ. 10 straight scoring titles, arguably best player in league for nearly his entire career. 6 straight titles in 6 tries. Most consistant player at bombing on teams game after game in a series with rarely any games that could be considered less than above average. Considered best player ever by nearly every former basketball player. Not to mention put up ridiculous numbers even in the modern era, with a massive collection of awards.

and FYI, Phil Jackson has 11 rings, so if he wins another, that record is broken.

Though, I do think people don't give Russel enough props, just because he wasn't a bigtime scorer.

Excellent post...although I don't agree with it.

BTW, Phil Jackson actually has 13 rings...but I have NEVER seen him on any Top-10 PLAYERs lists.

[godofgods]

Bird>Magic

That is correct but after MJ, it would either be Kareem or Russell (and to be fair, any of these 3 can be called GOAT).

[SinJackal]

Excellent post...although I don't agree with it.

BTW, Phil Jackson actually has 13 rings...but I have NEVER seen him on any Top-10 PLAYERs lists.

So someone already has more rings than Russel. Record already broken. I was just thinking about his rings as a coach, forgot he won 2 as a player with the Knicks.

[LALakerFan4Life]

Does it need to be asked? Of course it's Earvin "Magic" Johnson.

[Duncan21formvp]

Why the **** is a 4 year old thread brought back?