Being a choker is a problem... don't act like its not for Dirk Nowitzki

[plowking]

This guy cannot make a shot when his team needs it. He's proved it on several occasions including airballing a 3 this season for the win/tie. He will never be considered a great player (like Lebron/Kobe/Wade/Nash), as he is simply not clutch. The guy is simply a choker.

This should be considered when comparing players. Even though Dirk may average decent numbers, he cannot hit a shot in the last few minutes to save his life, so he should not be compared to the best players in the league.

I want to know your opinions, and especially -primetime's-. :)

:cheers:

[trig]

What's new?

[kwajo]

How dare you sully the good name of the Plow King (**** Mr. Plow)

[Bruinlove]

This guy cannot make a shot when his team needs it. He's proved it on several occasions including airballing a 3 this season for the win/tie. He will never be considered a great player (like Lebron/Kobe/Wade/Nash), as he is simply not clutch. The guy is simply a choker.

This should be considered when comparing players. Even though Dirk may average decent numbers, he cannot hit a shot in the last few minutes to save his life, so he should not be compared to the best players in the league.

I want to know your opinions, and especially -primetime's-. :)

:cheers:
See, that game Dirk airballed a three, he played amazing in he 4th. And overtime for that matter. He was the only Mav to score in the last 7 mins of the 4th and also hit the last second game tying three. Though he played amazingly clutch, he did airball the last shot in overtime and that is all people remember from it. I knew that would happen I even made a post about it.

No matter what he does, he will never shed his choker image, because he chokes when it matters most.

[LiL Stevie]

He's alright. Not as big a choker as people make him out to be. At least he's made clutch shots in the regular season and playoffs before as well as missed. He's no Kobe during the 4th quarter but he's not as bad as Nick Anderson, which is the level that many label him.

[dirkdiggler41]

This guy cannot make a shot when his team needs it. He's proved it on several occasions including airballing a 3 this season for the win/tie. He will never be considered a great player (like Lebron/Kobe/Wade/Nash), as he is simply not clutch. The guy is simply a choker.

This should be considered when comparing players. Even though Dirk may average decent numbers, he cannot hit a shot in the last few minutes to save his life, so he should not be compared to the best players in the league.

I want to know your opinions, and especially -primetime's-. :)

:cheers:


He has hit many shoots in the cluth. If you actully watch other teams, you will see that people makes and misses. Peja has airballed gamewinners, but he has also made made gamewinners with a hand in his face. Last night kobe bricked a 2pointer for the win. He choked, right? Please, go and watch some basketball.
I also find it very funny how everybody is saying he is not that bad of a clutch player after watching one game against the Lakers. It's loses all credibility from me atleast

[Splash]

This guy cannot make a shot when his team needs it. He's proved it on several occasions including airballing a 3 this season for the win/tie. He will never be considered a great player (like Lebron/Kobe/Wade/Nash), as he is simply not clutch. The guy is simply a choker.

This should be considered when comparing players. Even though Dirk may average decent numbers, he cannot hit a shot in the last few minutes to save his life, so he should not be compared to the best players in the league.

I want to know your opinions, and especially -primetime's-. :)

:cheers:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=sX1bUoMOs9k

http://youtube.com/watch?v=pDBsKXCIdiY&feature=related

http://youtube.com/watch?v=i3ZNoeCTP-4

http://youtube.com/watch?v=VsezSLdYcik&feature=related

http://youtube.com/watch?v=cLxOz1YbZC4&feature=related

http://youtube.com/watch?v=7tzDshj9Bqk&feature=related

[stephanieg]

Dirk Nowitzki certainly has a reputation as being a choker, although I believe it has more to do with him disappearing in major playoff games than the idea that he misses last minute shots. For the latter claim I would have to see some sort of statistical analysis. For all I know it has been done in which case I would appreciate a cite. It would certainly be much more convincing than notoriously faulty memories or a small collection of youtube highlights.

[Sneakerpro]

Dirk isn't nearly the choker people make him out to be.

Kobe Bryant choked in the Finals.

Kobe Bryant choked in the first round AFTER having a 3-1 lead.

But I do think he is soft in the way he plays alot but unless your retarded or don't follow basketball that closely you can't say he doesn't hit clutch shots on a consistant basis.

I used to think he was a huge choker myself but I seen enough of him to know it's overblown.

[clayton]

Dirk isn't nearly the choker people make him out to be.

Kobe Bryant choked in the Finals.

Kobe Bryant choked in the first round AFTER having a 3-1 lead.

But I do think he is soft in the way he plays alot but unless your retarded or don't follow basketball that closely you can't say he doesn't hit clutch shots on a consistant basis.

I used to think he was a huge choker myself but I seen enough of him to know it's overblown.
It goes on... Duncan couldn't do **** during the Kobe&Shaq, Lebron getting sweeped in the finals, Kobe screwing up the Lakers to a 4-1 defeat by Pistons. Choking is in everyone. Nobody is perfect.

Just saying...stop hating on Dirk.

[dirkdiggler41]

Double post

[dirkdiggler41]

Dirk Nowitzki certainly has a reputation as being a choker, although I believe it has more to do with him disappearing in major playoff games than the idea that he misses last minute shots. For the latter claim I would have to see some sort of statistical analysis. For all I know it has been done in which case I would appreciate a cite. It would certainly be much more convincing than notoriously faulty memories or a small collection of youtube highlights.

http://www.82games.com/random26.htm
Best I could find. He does not show up in the first quarter, but in secend, third and fourth. Does not really show clucth, but it shows us that he does more in the secend half then the first half

[plowking]

http://www.82games.com/random26.htm
Best I could find. He does not show up in the first quarter, but in secend, third and fourth. Does not really show clucth, but it shows us that he does more in the secend half then the first half

Stats are overrated. And anyway if you look at a thread about 2-3 pages back you'll see merely that its a response to -primetime's- thread...

[Hawker]

Stats are overrated. And anyway if you look at a thread about 2-3 pages back you'll see merely that its a response to -primetime's- thread...

You can respond IN THE THREAD instead of making a new one.

This thread is meaningless.

[gts]

wow another dirks a choker thread... funny how these things pop up but the OP actually never has anything to back up the nonsense they post... just a bad game....

all players have bad games.
I know that it's hard to belive, i'm really sorry to break your bubble... but dirks not the only one who misses shots... happens to the best of them, that's why nobody has ever shot 100% on the season

so until somebody can sign buddah to a long term contract we will never see perfection played by even the best of them...

[plowking]

wow another dirks a choker thread... funny how these things pop up but the OP actually never has anything to back up the nonsense they post... just a bad game....

all players have bad games.
I know that it's hard to belive, i'm really sorry to break your bubble... but dirks not the only one who misses shots... happens to the best of them, that's why nobody has ever shot 100% on the season

so until somebody can sign buddah to a long term contract we will never see perfection played by even the best of them...

One game? Did you watch the playoffs in 2006. If Wade cannot be considered elite due to injuries, then surely Dirk cannot be considered elite due to him chokeing in the playoffs and several other occasions. Also getting knocked out by the Warriors in the first round.

Surely if we can have stupid posts about Wade, we can have some about Nowitzki.

[gts]

One game? Did you watch the playoffs in 2006. If Wade cannot be considered elite due to injuries, then surely Dirk cannot be considered elite due to him chokeing in the playoffs and several other occasions.ahh i see a wade fan with an agenda? makes sense now

[Splash]

One game? Did you watch the playoffs in 2006. If Wade cannot be considered elite due to injuries, then surely Dirk cannot be considered elite due to him chokeing in the playoffs and several other occasions. Also getting knocked out by the Warriors in the first round.

Surely if we can have stupid posts about Wade, we can have some about Nowitzki.

How old are you?

[plowking]

ahh i see a wade fan with an agenda? makes sense now

Agenda? Wade isn't even my favourite player on the team, just the fact that certain Mavs fans (-primetime-), seems to still be sulking about the 2006 playoffs and he makes pointless threads to bag our team. Might as well put my two cents in about what I think of his.

[Hawker]

One game? Did you watch the playoffs in 2006. If Wade cannot be considered elite due to injuries, then surely Dirk cannot be considered elite due to him chokeing in the playoffs and several other occasions. Also getting knocked out by the Warriors in the first round.

Surely if we can have stupid posts about Wade, we can have some about Nowitzki.

Wade isnt considered elite due to injuries and SEVERE REF HELP.

Yes, I am a mavs fans but they are non-mavs fans out there that dont even consider wade's ring legit. Who would?

Dirk's choked once in the playoffs. The mavericks got knocked out by the warriors not Dirk.

[dirkdiggler41]

Stats are overrated. And anyway if you look at a thread about 2-3 pages back you'll see merely that its a response to -primetime's- thread...

He asked for some sort of evidence. What more can I do? Right now, you have not given us anything on Dirk choking. What other times has Dirk choked in the playoffs else from Rockets (we won the series) Heat and GSW? Out of 82 playoff games, show me some choking.

[Bruinlove]

He asked for some sort of evidence. What more can I do? What other times has Dirk choked in the playoffs? Rockets (we won the series) Heat and GSW. Out of 82 playoff games, show me some choking.
How can you honestly think that he isn't a choker?

Dirk never has won anything. Dirk never will win anything. Despite having one of the top teams in the league surrounding him (last year 70 win team) and because of his chokery they lose in the first round.

[gts]

Wade isnt considered elite due to injuries and SEVERE REF HELP.

Yes, I am a mavs fans but they are non-mavs fans out there that dont even consider wade's ring legit. Who would?

Dirk's choked once in the playoffs. The mavericks got knocked out by the warriors not Dirk.the mavs did choke away that series..but the OP blaming dirk is wrong... last time i checked there are 12 guys on a playoff roster and there's always at least 5 of them on the court at any one time...

the mavs had the heat against the ropes and couldn't put em down..if you want to blame it on the refs, fine whatever helps you sleep at night...

[Hawker]

the mavs did choke away that series..but the OP blaming dirk is wrong... last time i checked there are 12 guys on a playoff roster and there's always at least 5 of them on the court at any one time...

the mavs had the heat against the ropes and couldn't put em down..if you want to blame it on the refs, fine whatever helps you sleep at night...

The mavs choked against the heat with the ref's help. You cant act like that series was officiated fairly. So many phantom calls and non-calls...

The warriors were just a terrible match up for the mavs.

[Celts34]

He's still got a long way to go to reach the level of the greatest choke artist of all time. Which would be Mr. Karl malone the Mailman himself.

[dirkdiggler41]

How can you honestly think that he isn't a choker?

Dirk never has won anything. Dirk never will win anything. Despite having one of the top teams in the league surrounding him (last year 70 win team) and because of his chokery they lose in the first round.

Never said Dirk has never choked, but I wont call him a regular choker or a loser. Dirk having one of the top teams is all becaus of him. It is not becaus of the skill level of the other players, but becaus of him. He was the man last year. What happend was that Don Nelson outcoached Avery, while the players outplayed the Mavs. Did you watch that serie? If then, you might notice how ridiculous GSW was playing. They made 3points of one leg. Everytime they made a shoot, the whole crowed went crasy like I have never seen before. But can someone please give me some info about other games Dirk has choked? I got a couple of games in mind

[FabCasablancas]

Dirk's problem with game winners is that his team isn't built properly.. and becaus eof this teams can put small players on Dirk which takes away his perimter game.. Dirk can dominate these small players in the post.. but teams won't let him do that either.. they will take the ball out of his hands there toio by double and tripling him.. forcing the mavs weak shooters to take the shot..

So to blame Dirk for not hitting shots to win games is just ignorant.

The missed three in the Lakers game is a terrible example.. anytime you have to make a 3 point shot to tie or win a game youa re screwed.. especially with no time on the clock and Avery as your coach..

[Brunch@Five]

How can you honestly think that he isn't a choker?

Dirk never has won anything. Dirk never will win anything. Despite having one of the top teams in the league surrounding him (last year 70 win team) and because of his chokery they lose in the first round.

Only guys that won more as their teams leader: Duncan, Shaq, Wade*

[chains5000]

Only guys that won more as their teams leader: Duncan, Shaq, Wade*
You forgot Lebron.
(He's beaten Kobe & the Lakers for the last few years, and that's REALLY important. PB says so and he knows stuff)

[-primetime-]

This guy cannot make a shot when his team needs it. He's proved it on several occasions including airballing a 3 this season for the win/tie. He will never be considered a great player (like Lebron/Kobe/Wade/Nash), as he is simply not clutch. The guy is simply a choker.

This should be considered when comparing players. Even though Dirk may average decent numbers, he cannot hit a shot in the last few minutes to save his life, so he should not be compared to the best players in the league.

I want to know your opinions, and especially -primetime's-. :)

:cheers:
you want to know my opinion???


no question about it:

DIRK > WADE


give ne a reason to think that wheelchair riding peice of sh-it is anything close to Dirk....??????


this thread was a blatent -primetime- call out.......cool


how about Wade stays off a wheelchair befoe you talk to me......OK??????

[JtotheIzzo]

remember when Dirk hit the shot and got the block the game that the Mavs finally got past the Spurs the year they went to the finals?

Why do people always forget how clutch Dirk was then?

[dirkdiggler41]

Becaus they did not watch that game. "Ohh, Spurs is so boring to watch. They dont dunk and block shots out of bounds"

[Artillery]

remember when Dirk hit the shot and got the block the game that the Mavs finally got past the Spurs the year they went to the finals?

Why do people always forget how clutch Dirk was then?

Dirk choked bigtime in his last two playoff series. Terry carried the team against the Heat and JHo was the only one that showed up vs the Warriors. Dirk almost shed away his choker image last year after winning 67 games while having an MVP season but he threw all that down the toilet by playing HORRIBLE against the Warriors.

He's supposed to be the franchise player of his team but his second banana outplayed him! Compare their statlines against GS:

Dirk:19.7 ppg, 11.3 rpg, 2.3 apg, 1.8 spg, 1.3 bpg, 2.33 TOs on 38.3% shooting(21.1% from the 3).

JHo: 21.3 ppg, 9.8 rpg, 2.8 apg, 2.2 spg, 0.8 bpg, 2.00 TOs on 51.5% shooting(38.9% from the 3).

You can't blame anyone for calling him a choker when Dirk puts up those pathetic numbers against an 8th seeded team(especially after a 67 win season and being voted MVP).

Fab will keep spouting the same tired excuses about the double teams but the fact is that Dirk couldn't validate his MVP award in the post-season. What kind of leader/MVP gets bumped from the first round while shooting an embarassing 38.9% against the lowest seed in his conference?

[dirkdiggler41]

Did you watch that serie? If then, you would might notice how Avery got outcoached by Dirk's maker Don Nelson. Did you see how GSW played the last 20games? Did you notice how good Dirk is when he choked big time and Josh Howard had his best playoff series, they both had the same stats (else from fg and some points)
GSW always knows what to do against Dirk. Don Nelson made Dirk. He was there for him from day one. Dirk did not want to play in the NBA, but Don saw what he could be. Don knows exactly what to do and when to, to stop Dirk. In other words, he knows exactly what time you double him. How you force him to go away from his game. Dirk was extremly well defended, and Avery did not adjust.

If Kobe would ever play against a team coached by Phil Jackson, do you think it would be harder or more easy for Kobe to score? Nah, forget that. Lets say you take the current Lakers made by Phil Jackson, then you let Phil Jackson be the coach for the opposite team. A assistance will coach the Lakers. Who will win?

Nobody has yet to come with some other games else from rox, heat and gsw. The rest must have been all great games for Dirk then

ps. why cant we use the argument that Dirk was doubleteamed?

[Brunch@Five]

You know you're a great player if 20/11 is considered pathetic for you :oldlol:

Not saying he didn't play bad for his standards that series, but him choking was not the main reason Dallas lost. They lost because no one else stepped up, Avery was outcoached and no one was able to really benefit from Golden State's complete focus to shut down Dirk.

[Artillery]

You know you're a great player if 20/11 is considered pathetic for you :oldlol:


It's pathetic when you're shooting 38.3%(21.1% from the 3). Plus anyone could have grabbed 11 boards against a smallball team like GSW.

[Artillery]

ps. why cant we use the argument that Dirk was doubleteamed?

Every MVP-calibre has to deal with double teams. Just seems like a weak excuse to me.

[JtotheIzzo]

It's pathetic when you're shooting 38.3%(21.1% from the 3). Plus anyone could have grabbed 11 boards against a smallball team like GSW.

not true a team like GS shoots a ton of threes and quick shots, big men are likely to grab more rebounds against half court teams when they are more often in position and there aren't so many long rebounds.

[jo3y91]

not true a team like GS shoots a ton of threes and quick shots, big men are likely to grab more rebounds against half court teams when they are more often in position and there aren't so many long rebounds.
what? no they dont there usually first 2 get rebounds for a reason there the ones that are always back on D straight away(unless ur shaq)

[raiderfan19]

It's pathetic when you're shooting 38.3%(21.1% from the 3). Plus anyone could have grabbed 11 boards against a smallball team like GSW.
this would be alot more legitimate if he didnt average 11 rpg in his career in the playoffs.

[dirkdiggler41]

Every MVP-calibre has to deal with double teams. Just seems like a weak excuse to me.

Could you please answear my questions. That quote was ment for you

[Sharas]

basketball-reference.com is your friend, as jeff would say.

it shows that most of dirk's stats actually increase in playoffs compared to the regular season during the most of his career...while, say, kobe bryant's stats decrease.

and if you look at talent levels, lakers and kobe had a choke in 2004 finals which is comparable, if not even bigger, than mavs last year loss to warriors.

[Sneakerpro]

Kobe Bryant scored 8 points in a NBA Finals game that his team got blown out in.

He also scored 2 points in the second half of a Game 7.

He had the most dominant player of all time of his team.

Kobe's choker too.

[DatZNasty]

:oldlol: no comment. People from other boards are watching me.

But yea, if Dirk is a choker, which I would generally agree, there are also many more who don't get that label thrown on them nearly as much who are as bad or worse. In fact, when Dirk choked the finals in 06, where was Iverson? Garnett? Hell, the #1 players on 28 other teams in the league? Home watching on the couch wishing they could even make it there to be in position to choke. How bout Jermaine O'Neal, who proclaims "nobody can guard me 1 on 1," then proceeds to get locked up by Kenyon Martin for the rest of the series?

Dirk just crashes and burns more spectacularly, in hilarious fashion. Like in the all star game when the score in tied 125-125 late in the 4th, then all of a sudden Dirk turns the ball over, airballs, and gets dunked on. You can't write funnier stuff than that.

And getting embarassed by the likes of a Ryan Bowen or much smaller Stephen Jackson, straight emasculated, culminating with a 2- 15 or something elimination game, you almost feel bad for him.

http://www.vivisect.org/choke/choke_full.gif

[Blue&Orange]

basketball-reference.com is your friend, as jeff would say.

it shows that most of dirk's stats actually increase in playoffs compared to the regular season during the most of his career...while, say, kobe bryant's stats decrease.

and if you look at talent levels, lakers and kobe had a choke in 2004 finals which is comparable, if not even bigger, than mavs last year loss to warriors.


Kobe Bryant scored 8 points in a NBA Finals game that his team got blown out in.

He also scored 2 points in the second half of a Game 7.

He had the most dominant player of all time of his team.

Kobe's choker too.

wow this thread really backfired.

[Valliant13]

How dare you sully the good name of the Plow King (**** Mr. Plow)

Lets be honest here: He's no Mr. Plow, and we both know it!

[DatZNasty]

wow this thread really backfired.
Not really, 38%fg for an MVP in a season you won 67 games and took the #1 seed, only to be eliminated, embarassed, emasculated, evaporated by a #8 seed, which has never been done before since the 7 game format.

And let's not forget this is following a series, where he shoot 38% again, where they went up 2-0, only to lose the next 4 straight, which has again, never been done before.

If you can't call that a choke, I don't know what is. Let's not even mention a double digit lead in the 3rd game with less than 6 minutes to go.

http://www.tennis.com/uploadedImages/Your_Game/Sports_Science/2006_04_19_choke.jpg

[TheHonestTruth]

KG is more of a choker than Dirk.

[dirkdiggler41]

Just to let you guys know. Mavericks lost 6 out of 7 games against the Golden state the last two season (not counting this one)

http://www.basketball-reference.com/fc/tsplit.cgi?team=DAL&year=2006
http://www.basketball-reference.com/fc/tsplit.cgi?team=DAL&year=2007

[Splash]

Just to let you guys know. Mavericks lost 6 out of 7 games against the Golden state the last two season (not counting this one)

http://www.basketball-reference.com/fc/tsplit.cgi?team=DAL&year=2006
http://www.basketball-reference.com/fc/tsplit.cgi?team=DAL&year=2007

Yea, they were losing to the warriors pretty consistently in the regular season, so it was not a surprise to me that they lost the series. I actually called it before the series even started. I know a lot of people who did also.

[Hawker]

what? no they dont there usually first 2 get rebounds for a reason there the ones that are always back on D straight away(unless ur shaq)

I dont think you understand. If the team takes quicker shots then the big men take longer to get in position and if they shoot LONGER shots (3s) then it means a longer rebound which means harder for the big men to get.

[Hiei]

KG is more of a choker than Dirk.

:rolleyes:

[Jotaro Durant]

http://cdn.bleacherreport.net/images_root/images/photos/001/248/877/115952428_crop_340x234.jpg?1307996214

[DirkNowitzki41]

http://img.ibtimes.com/www/data/images/full/2011/06/13/113451-dirk-nowitzki.jpg

[FindingTim]

Dirk has hit more clutch shots than I can possibly remember.
Pass that stuff over here, it must be the good stuff.

[bluechox2]

:lol @ all the previous dirk/mavs threads surfacing

[winwin]

plowking

lol

[spursrule]

:lol @ all the previous dirk/mavs threads surfacing
:lol

come on y'all, enjoy the success. Leave the dwelling on the past for your therapist's couch. Dredging up a thread from 2008??? Really???

[sipitri]

This guy cannot make a shot when his team needs it. He's proved it on several occasions including airballing a 3 this season for the win/tie. He will never be considered a great player (like Lebron/Kobe/Wade/Nash), as he is simply not clutch. The guy is simply a choker.

This should be considered when comparing players. Even though Dirk may average decent numbers, he cannot hit a shot in the last few minutes to save his life, so he should not be compared to the best players in the league.

I want to know your opinions, and especially -primetime's-. :)

:cheers:

Oh sh!t :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

[Blue&Orange]

This thread backfired:
http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1606788&postcount=45

No it didn

[bokes15]

This guy cannot make a shot when his team needs it. He's proved it on several occasions including airballing a 3 this season for the win/tie. He will never be considered a great player (like Lebron/Kobe/Wade/Nash), as he is simply not clutch. The guy is simply a choker.

This should be considered when comparing players. Even though Dirk may average decent numbers, he cannot hit a shot in the last few minutes to save his life, so he should not be compared to the best players in the league.

I want to know your opinions, and especially -primetime's-. :)

:cheers:
I understand Kobe/Wade... but 08 Bron and Nash? :oldlol: What had they accomplished more than Dirk at that point?

[Toizumi]

Dirk has had a legendary postseason run individually and came up clutch time and time again :bowdown: Nobody will deny that he was clutch as sh*t and he has finally shedded his chocker label (that was long overdue).

HOWEVER, are we not gonna act like he came up short many times in the clutch in the past? :confusedshrug: How he failed to step it up in some big games in the past. I'm not talking the past two season or so, but he definitely choked in some games in those years before... we all witnessed it (and some posters made threads about it, like this one).

There was a reason that all these threads were created.. a reason why people called Nowitzi soft and labeled him a choker. That label stuck with him too long and after these past playoffs I assume/hope that it's gone forever. Nowitzki seems to have toughened up over the years and he has really worked on his game also. He made tons of big shots before this season and these playoffs.. but he dissapointed many times as well.

[Semi]

I understand Kobe/Wade... but 08 Bron and Nash? :oldlol: What had they accomplished more than Dirk at that point?
Well at that time, Lebron had that epic game against the Pistons and Nash always was clutch and especially against the Mavs in the series in 05 or so and in many other series.

Obviously that doesn't take away Dirk's clutchness in all the years. He is for me on par with every other great crunch-time scorers, and not just since this playoff run.

When you consider his play in international competition where he carried the rest of the German scrubs throughout many tournament where he was also special in crunchtime than you see the whole picture of Dirk.

[undertaker21]

Well at that time, Lebron had that epic game against the Pistons and Nash always was clutch and especially against the Mavs in the series in 05 or so and in many other series.

Obviously that doesn't take away Dirk's clutchness in all the years. He is for me on par with every other great crunch-time scorers, and not just since this playoff run.

When you consider his play in international competition where he carried the rest of the German scrubs throughout many tournament where he was also special in crunchtime than you see the whole picture of Dirk.
At the time of that post (3/10/08) Bron did have that epic game against the Pistons but then proceeded to get swept in the finals. However, in the previous season Dirk pulled out an epic game 7 to take out the 1 seed Spurs as the 4 seed. People have just decided to deem that null and void in their minds due to the Mavs not pulling out a win in the finals. And as for Nash, he hadn't and still hasn't made a finals yet. So there was no grounds even at that time to say that Nash and Lebron were more clutch than Dirk.

[SCdac]

HOWEVER, are we not gonna act like he came up short many times in the clutch in the past? :confusedshrug:

No man, don't you understand, Dirk won a championship now so every time he failed in the past, he actually didn't fail. It was all just our twisted completely unfounded perception of him. He actually has 3 championships already, we're all just to much of haters too see. :rolleyes:

[malek4980]

HOWEVER, are we not gonna act like he came up short many times in the clutch in the past?

Who hasn't? Do you think Kobe even makes 50% of his clutch shots? He doesn't. Is Kobe great in every playoff series? NO. But no one focuses on that, but so many focus on how Dirk failed in the 06 Finals without asking how the Mavs god there in he first place.

Dirk has made a ton of clutch shots both in the regular season and playoffs before this season, but people like to stick with simple narratives: "Dirk is da choker and a sort YURO."

If you go to 82games.com, you can see that he's been among the league leaders in clutch scoring the last four seasons.

If Dirk has always been so unlutch, why are his career playoff numbers better than his regular season numbers. Shouldn't an unclutch player do worse in the playoffs than he does in the regular seasons?
Career: 23 points, 8.4 rebounds, a PER of 23.7
Playoffs: 25.9 points, 10.4 rebounds, a PER of 24.7, .584 TS%

Meanwhile, Bird is clutch:
Career PER: 23.5
Playoff PER: 21.4 .554 TS%

Yet his playoff numbers are worse than his regular season numbers.

[malek4980]

He actually has 3 championships already, we're all just to much of haters too see. :rolleyes:

Which teams should he have won titles with? The one where Josh Howard was the team's second best player?

[SCdac]

Which teams should he have won titles with? The one where Josh Howard was the team's second best player?

Yeah for sure, those teams sucked. They only won 67 games a few years ago, and 60 wins before that, which is such a joke. no way a team that wins 67 in the regular season should be expected to get out of the first round, let alone make it to the Finals, I agree. I totally know what you mean. Horrible cast surrounding Dirk. Biggest victim in the league...

[malek4980]

Yeah for sure, those teams sucked.
Straw man #1 I never said the team sucked, but a team with josh howard as the second player shouldn't be expected to win championships.


They only won 67 games a few years ago, and 60 wins before that, which is such a joke. no way a team that wins 67 in the regular season should be expected to get out of the first round, let alone make it to the Finals, I agree.
Why do you think those teams won so many games in the regular season? Might it have something to do with the league leader in both PER and win shares?
Again, where did I say that team shouldn't have made it past the first round? I asked "Which teams should he have won titles with?"


Horrible cast surrounding Dirk. Biggest victim in the league...
Strawman number 2 and strawman number 3. Good job.

[malek4980]

Moving on. . . .

Everything comes down to the Golden State series and the Miami series? Why? Were those the only two series Dirk played in? If people chose to be fair--which is asking a lot from trolls on the internet--they would see that Dirk has performed very well in the playoffs overall. I'm not claiming that those series should be ignored, but all other series shouldn't be ignored either.

In a 124 playoff games, Dirk has averaged 25.9 points, 10.4 rebounds, and a .584 TS%. You know how many players have averaged 25+ points and 10+ rebounds in the playoffs? Four. How many players have a higher TS%? Not many--and none of those players have scored at the volume Dirk has.

Dirk's career playoff PER: 24.7 (7th all time, just behind Duncan and Hakeem). God, he sure has choked.

his last four playoffs
26.8 points, 12 rebounds, .588 TS% (choker)
26.8 points, 10.1 rebounds, .635 TS% (choker)
26.7 points, 8.2 rebounds, .643 TS% (choker)
27.7 points, 8.1 rebounds, .609 TS% (clutch)

Carer Playoff TS%:
Dirk's: .584
kobe's: .543
Bird's: .551
Jordan's .568

Yet, those guys are great playoff scorers and Dirk is/was a soft choker. Perception is reality.

[-playmaker-]

Haha...this thread was directed at me

Great bump, thank you

[SCdac]

Everything comes down to the Golden State series and the Miami series? Why? Were those the only two series Dirk played in?

No, he lead his team to 3 other first round exits, and 4 second round exits...

[creepingdeath]

No, he lead his team to 3 other first round exits, and 4 second round exits...
Only you can blame series like the Denver one on Dirk... 34/13/3. When was the last time Duncan averaged such numbers? :lol

[malek4980]

No, he lead his team to 3 other first round exits

Stats in those other 3 first round exits:
03/04: 26.6 points, 11.8 rebounds, .561 TS%, 27.5 PER (highest in the playoffs)
07/08: 26.8 points, 12 rebounds, .588 TS%, 26.3 PER
09/10: 26.7 points, 8.2 rebounds, .643 TS%, 28.3 PER

God he sucked in those first rounds. No wonder they lost. :banghead:

Look at last year's first round exit: Dirk has a PER of 28.3. Kidd? 13.5. Terry? 11.8. Marion? 7.9. But you want to blame Dirk for the first-round exit?

[SCdac]

Only you can blame series like the Denver one on Dirk... 34/13/3. When was the last time Duncan averaged such numbers? :lol

I mean to edit my thread, but I figured someone would reply

Note: I don't hold literally every loss against Dirk... that would be mightily unfair and unrealistic

It's a team game. And Dirk has lead his team, some times better than others, to plenty of losses... I'm just saying.... Winning a championship now doesn't necessarily change that, at all.

[SCdac]

Stats in those other 3 first round exits:
03/04: 26.6 points, 11.8 rebounds, .561 TS%, 27.5 PER (highest in the playoffs)
07/08: 26.8 points, 12 rebounds, .588 TS%, 26.3 PER
09/10: 26.7 points, 8.2 rebounds, .643 TS%, 28.3 PER

God he sucked in those first rounds. No wonder they lost. :banghead:

Look at last year's first round exit: Dirk has a PER of 28.3. Kidd? 13.5. Terry? 11.8. Marion? 7.9. But you want to blame Dirk for the first-round exit?

Stats? PER?

Is that what you think the game is all about?

Is NBA basketball just fantasy basketball ruled by stats...

It's about HOW he got and didn't get those numbers.

[malek4980]

I mean to edit my thread, but I figured someone would reply

Note: I don't hold literally every loss against Dirk... that would be mightily unfair and unrealistic

It's a team game. And Dirk has lead his team, some times better than others, to plenty of losses... I'm just saying.... Winning a championship now doesn't necessarily change that, at all.

The championship has changed people's perception of Dirk, but the original perception of Dirk has been unfair. So, oh well.

[Mrofir]

I think there's a perception that if you are "a choker", you are literally unable to perform when it matters.

Kinda like ED but for 4th quarters. No?


Dirk was unfairly labeled a choker before, now he has proven that it was wrong, and it was wrong all along, yes? Because you either are or aren't yes? You are either capable of coming up huge or not. It's a mental thing, some people freak out.

Dirk came up huge. This wasn't the only time, but this time it's completely irrefutable. Those still bringing up past failings, that's fine, he did fail, but not because he's a choker. Just because it didn't all come together in a single season until now.

dirk is forever not a choker, new evidence can and does change established beliefs.

science

[malek4980]

Stats? PER?

Is that what you think the game is all about?

Is NBA basketball just fantasy basketball ruled by stats...

It's about HOW he got and didn't get those numbers.

You dislike the stats because they don't support your subjective viewpoint.

[SCdac]

You dislike the stats because they don't support your subjective viewpoint.

I dislike the stats... because.... they are just numbers (total averages)... they don't take into account the bad games that contributed to the final result (a series loss).

Did you actually watch his games? or are you using his stats to create what Dirk is as a player? Does PER win championships in it of itself?

For instance, last season, his post season numbers looked "great" at the end.

But it doesn't take into account his Game 2 stinker in which he shot the ball 24 times and only made 9 shots on his home court...

It doesn't take into account Game 4 in which he took 10 shots and made only 4 of them...

It doesn't take into account Dirk letting a rookie DeJuan Blair get under his skin in that game and effecting his game/concentration/drive....

It doesn't take into account Game 6 in which Dirk committed stupid fouls on George Hill and others and played soft at the end of the game....

Raw averages will not show you the instances in which Dirk played badly --- that DID contribute to the overall loss.

I watched the games and saw, despite what his numbers say, how he came up short in games that mattered.

That's just one series.... one example... I don't have the energy to go back to every series, nor does Dirk deserve (not that he's reading this) to be criticized days after he lead his team to a championship.

It's disgruntled Dirk fans who are bumping these threads.... the thing is, nothing has changed the past.... he still came up short in plenty of games in the past, if anything, it probably made him a better player.

The "choker" image might be exaggerated, but it's not a myth entirely.... not at all.

[malek4980]

I dislike the stats... because.... they are just numbers (total averages)... they don't take into account the bad games that contributed to the final result (a series loss).

Did you actually watch his games? or are you using his stats to create what Dirk is as a player? Does PER win championships in it of itself?

For instance, last season, his post season numbers looked "great" at the end.

But it doesn't take into account his Game 2 stinker in which he shot the ball 24 times and only made 9 shots on his home court...

It doesn't take into account Game 4 in which he took 10 shots and made only 4 of them...

"It doesn't take into account"? No, stats do take these games into account. They take 'em all into account. What they don't do is conveniently cherry-pick, like you do.


Cherry picking, suppressing evidence, or the fallacy of incomplete evidence is the act of pointing to individual cases or data that seem to confirm a particular position, while ignoring a significant portion of related cases or data that may contradict that position. It is a kind of fallacy of selective attention, the most common example of which is the confirmation bias. Cherry picking may be committed unintentionally

If I were to cherry pick games from that series, I'd pick game one where he scored 36 points on 14 shots or the elimination game where he scored 33 on 62% shooting? Don't see why that's wrong.

Let's cherry-pick some of Duncan's games from that series! Four points on .111 shooting in game four. Just imagine if Dirk did that, you intellectually dishonest fanboy. Game five: 11 points, 6 boards, and zero assists. What a soft euro.

OMG Dirk committed a foul on George Hill in a game where he shot 62% and the rest of the team shot well under 40%. OMG the foul! let's cherry pick some more.

[phoenix_bladen]

OP is an idiot

[SCdac]

"It doesn't take into account"? No, stats do take these games into account. They take 'em all into account. What they don't do is conveniently cherry-pick, like you do.


If I were to cherry pick games from that series, I'd pick game one where he scored 36 points on 14 shots or the elimination game where he scored 33 on 62% shooting? Don't see why that's wrong.

Cherry picking? How do you cherry pick 3 out of 6 total games? We're not talking about me picking 3 games out of 100+...

We're talking about stats from a first round loss in 6 games, and how some of his bad games - despite his total averages - were a part of those 4 losses.

The point is that stats don't tell the whole story. How that is hard to comprehend, I have no idea.

It's HOW he played, not what the final tallies were (ie. X amount of point, Y amount of rebounds, etc).

I never said Dirk didn't have awesome games, he's had plenty. He's also had crappy games (who hasn't?). It's you guys who think Dirk has literally never contributed to a loss and never had a moment below his own standards :facepalm

[malek4980]

Sure my stockbroker earns me 20% a year, but remember the time he lost me 5% on company xyz and the time he lost me 2% on company ABC. You can't see that from the stats! Who cares that he brings in 20% a year, I much rather cherry pick like a dumb ****.

[SCdac]

Let's cherry-pick some of Duncan's games from that series! Four points on .111 shooting in game four. Just imagine if Dirk did that, you intellectually dishonest fanboy. Game five: 11 points, 6 boards, and zero assists. What a soft euro.

Imagine if Dirk lead his team to a championship at 22 years of age, then did it again in even greater fashion at 26 years of age.... that's what Duncan did... Totally different breed of player.

[malek4980]

Cherry picking? How do you cherry pick 3 out of 6 total games?

The fouls are instances in one game. That's cherry picking.

In game two you're chiding him for going 9 for 24. Guess what? The rest of the team had a worse shooting percentages. And scoring 17 points on just 10 shots is bad? And let's ignore his 11 boards and 4 assists, because that wouldn't help our cherry picking.

[malek4980]

Imagine if Dirk lead his team to a championship at 22 years of age, then did it again in even greater fashion at 26 years of age.... that's what Duncan did... Totally different breed of player.

Duncan is the best power forward of all time, but what does that have to do with the price of tea? I was making a point about cherry picking, which, clearly, went over your head.

[SCdac]

OMG Dirk committed a foul on George Hill in a game where he shot 62% and the rest of the team shot well under 40%. OMG the foul! let's cherry pick some more.

That dumb and needless foul also sent him to the bench, and left the rest of the Mavs to fend for themselves. It's basketball man. I'm not just making this stuff up to try and make him sound bad... it's, just, what happened.

But, oh my bad, Dirk is perfect. :rolleyes:

[malek4980]

It's you guys who think Dirk has literally never contributed to a loss and never had a moment below his own standards :facepalm
woooot more strawmen

You love your fallacies. Clearly, you are a man of great intellect.

[SCdac]

woooot more strawmen

You love your fallacies. Clearly, you are a man of great intellect.

clearly, you think Dirk has never had a bad game or a bad moment that significantly contributed to a loss..... (being totally serious here)

If that's not homerism, I don't know what is.

[malek4980]

That dumb and needless foul also sent him to the bench, and left the rest of the Mavs to fend for themselves.
He played 38 minutes in the game. God forbid the rest of the team play a few minutes without him.

[malek4980]

clearly, you think Dirk has never had a bad game or a bad moment that significantly contributed to a loss..... (being totally serious here)

If that's not homerism, I don't know what is.
When did I type that or imply that. Quote me exactly.

You just want to create an easy strawmen because they're easy to knock down.

[amfirst]

Dirk isn't nearly the choker people make him out to be.

Kobe Bryant choked in the Finals.

Kobe Bryant choked in the first round AFTER having a 3-1 lead.

But I do think he is soft in the way he plays alot but unless your retarded or don't follow basketball that closely you can't say he doesn't hit clutch shots on a consistant basis.

I used to think he was a huge choker myself but I seen enough of him to know it's overblown.

It can't be choke if the other team is far superior and your not expected to win.

Choking is being on a superior team like the Heats and losing. Especially not even showing up to play.

When Kobe loses, he shows up to play, but just comes up short. It's a big difference.

[malek4980]

Some people claim that Halladay is the best pitcher in baseball, but he gave up four runs last night.

Cherry picking is fun.

[SCdac]

When did I type that or imply that. Quote me exactly.

You just want to create an easy strawmen because they're easy to knock down.

you posted a bunch of stats in post #70 saying Dirk played very well over all comparing him to all-time greats... saying, "nothing should be ignored" in terms of his games and series... If anything, you wan't to ignore every and any bad game Dirk has had in the playoffs, no? Are you trying to imply that because his "career playoff TS%" is really good, better than Micheal Jordans, that he's never let his team down?

[malek4980]

you posted a bunch of stats in post #70 saying Dirk played very well over all comparing him to all-time greats... saying, "nothing should be ignored" in terms of his games and series... If anything, you wan't to ignore every and any bad game Dirk has had in the playoffs, no? Are you trying to imply that because his "career playoff TS%" is really good, better than Micheal Jordans, that he's never let his team down?

See, you couldn't do it.

He let his team down in the playoffs, sure. Your job was to find a quote where I said the opposite. I clearly wrote he had bad series against GS and Miami in 06! My point when I said "nothing should be ignored" was that people shouldn't just focus on those bad series, but look at them ALL. And not just the bad games or great games--but all 124. And, if you look at all 124 (WITHOUT CHERRY PICKING), he has performed very well in the playoffs.

All you've done is build up straw men and cherry pick since.

[SCdac]

See, you couldn't do it.

He let his team down in the playoffs, sure. Your job was to find a quote where I said the opposite. I clearly wrote he had bad series against GS and Miami in 06! My point when I said "nothing should be ignored" was that people shouldn't just focus on those bad series, but look at them ALL. And not just the bad games or great games--but all 124.

LOL, only the Golden State series and Miami? ok buddy..... homers like you live and die by stats... don't actually watch the games on tv.

Why didn't Dirk's amazing clutchness take the Mavs out of 3 other first round exits, and 4 second round exits?

[malek4980]

LOL, only the Golden State series and Miami? ok buddy..... homers like you live and die by stats... don't actually watch the games on tv.
I never wrote the word "only" (His first playoff series against the Jazz was bad and he had a subpar series against Houston) . Again, another straw man. Look at yourself in the mirror. Ask yourself if winning e-arguments by putting words in someone's mouth makes you look good.

I "watch the game" cliche. Awesome.

[SCdac]

I never wrote the word "only" (His first playoff series against the Jazz was bad and he had a subpar series against Houston) . Again, another straw man. Look at yourself in the mirror. Ask yourself if winning e-arguments by putting words in someone's mouth makes you look good.

I "watch the game" cliche. Awesome.

I don't care if I win or lose anything... I'm passing time at work right now, and just trying to figure out your take on all this..... provided it's a rational and reasonable perspective (which I question).

[malek4980]

Why didn't Dirk's amazing clutchness take the Mavs out of 3 other first round exits

Last year? Clearly because Dirk shot 57%. YOU CALL THAT CLUTCH PLAYOFF SHOOTING! His teammates did their jobs. Marion, Terry, and Kidd shot 40%, 37% 30%, respectively. Why that wasn't good enough to beat the Spurs I'll never know.

2008? Dirk was pretty bad: 27 points, 12 rebounds, and 4 assists (Even worse when you watched him) Josh Howard shot 29% and Stackhouse shot 31%. They were so good, but just not good enough to carry Chokewitzki!

2004? Ahhh more Dirk empty stats. 27 and 12? who cares. Let's ignore that Steve Nash shot .38%--he still brought his great defense. Let's ignore Finley's 38% shooting. Finally let's ignore Walker's 36% shooting.

I know: Stats suck because they make you look stupid.

[malek4980]

.... provided it's a rational and reasonable perspective (which I question).

So you think logical fallacies are rational?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cherry_picking_%28fallacy%29

[BlueandGold]

Can we all stfu with these threads? Guy acts like he's nostradamus because he predicts the winner of a basketball game. You have a 50% chance of getting it right or wrong, dumb asses.

[SCdac]

2004? Ahhh more Dirk empty stats. 27 and 12? who cares. Let's ignore that Steve Nash shot .38%--he still brought his great defense.

:roll:

Dirk homers hating on teammates for weak defense...

oh the irony.

[malek4980]

:roll:

Dirk homers hating on teammates for weak defense...

oh the irony.

Dirk is a much better defender than Nash.

But, yet again, you cherry picked. This time from my post. I'm done wasting my time.

[Balla_Status]

So by SCDac's logic, the spurs should've been able to win the title this year. As long as he admits that, we're cool.

And that Duncan is a choker for leading his team to a first round exit this year.

[SCdac]

So by SCDac's logic, the spurs should've been able to win the title this year. As long as he admits that, we're cool.

yeah, they should have! For much of the season they looked like the best team in the league and finished with the top record (w/ the Bulls).. Definitely think they should have at least made it to the WCF's. Spurs were one of the biggest disappointments IMO... Granted, they didn't have the MVP player of the league, like Dallas had that year (2007), they had an aging trio of champions surrounded by a good bench.

[creepingdeath]

I mean to edit my thread, but I figured someone would reply

Note: I don't hold literally every loss against Dirk... that would be mightily unfair and unrealistic

It's a team game. And Dirk has lead his team, some times better than others, to plenty of losses... I'm just saying.... Winning a championship now doesn't necessarily change that, at all.
Yeah, it doesn't. It's just annoying that NOW people are propping up Dirk's teammates when he had to take the FULL blame for all the past failures (yeah, not everyone said that, but a huge majority, even among media / sports experts). Still remember that douche Webber calling Dirk out in the Denver series. :facepalm Anyway, you can't have it both ways. Either a franchise's star takes most of the blame AND most of the glory, or you differentiate. But it's a double standard to call him a playoff choker up until this year and at the same time praise his teammates when they let him down every season since the GSW series.

[SCdac]

So by SCDac's logic, the spurs should've been able to win the title this year. As long as he admits that, we're cool.

And that Duncan is a choker for leading his team to a first round exit this year.

Yeah, let's not take into account that Duncan just turned 35, and played 4000+ more minutes of basketbal than Dirk before the 2010-2011 season even kicked off.

[niko]

Yeah, let's not take into account that Duncan just turned 35, and played 4000+ more minutes of basketbal than Dirk before the 2010-2011 season even kicked off.
a few things...
1) If you are clutch your whole career and then lose, no matter how badly, you are NOT a choker.
2) Duncan was not awful. He was playing against an All Star PF who was playing way over his head. And Duncan has no C partner, it's one on two at all times. So he didn't even play bad.
3) The Spurs overachieved in the regular season. The Grizzlies underachieved. So there 1/8 didn't feel like 1/8, it felt like 3/6.

If you want to blame someone on SA for choking (it's a stretch) how about RJ? or any of the other role players who were overwhelmed against the Grizzlies of all teams.

[creepingdeath]

Yeah, let's not take into account that Duncan just turned 35, and played 4000+ more minutes of basketbal than Dirk before the 2010-2011 season even kicked off.
Don't ignore the fact that Dirk has played 100 more games for the national team including several international tournaments where the refs allow more physical play.

[Balla_Status]

Yeah, let's not take into account that Duncan just turned 35, and played 4000+ more minutes of basketbal than Dirk before the 2010-2011 season even kicked off.

So no excuses can be made for Dirk but they can be made for Duncan? Alright...just checking. You can leave the thread now.