Who has better handles than Chris Paul?

[konex]

If you go to NBA.com, they have CP3's top 10 plays of the year so far. Watch #1 and tell me who has better handles than this kid. Poor Anthony Carter, that was friken disgusting lol

[StroShow4]

as far as functional handles/ability to control the ball and create without turining it over? yeah he's probably the best. but as for flashy handles? no one in the league even competes with jamal crawford.

[ChrisConley]

Good look Konex. Great vid. I don't know Stro, that number one play is hotter than anything I can ever remember seeing Crawford do, and I'm a Knicks fan.

[StroShow4]

Good look Konex. Great vid. I don't know Stro, that number one play is hotter than anything I can ever remember seeing Crawford do, and I'm a Knicks fan.

nah.. crawford throwing it off the board to himself while in the air and dunking it >>> anything paul has ever done. also that behind the back then back in the other direction move he uses to set up his floater in transition is incredible. have you ever tried that? i swear its the hardest effing move to do, i've practiced it a bunch of times and still can;t do it well enough to do it in a game. another thing crawford has over paul is that he's breaking out sick moves almost every single time he goes to the hoop. seems like every time he gets the ball he pulls out some street handles. plus imo his crossover has GOAT status.

[schyza]

I have a feeling that since you didn

[grovetd]

baron davis

[ChrisConley]

nah.. crawford throwing it off the board to himself while in the air and dunking it >>> anything paul has ever done. also that behind the back then back in the other direction move he uses to set up his floater in transition is incredible. have you ever tried that? i swear its the hardest effing move to do, i've practiced it a bunch of times and still can;t do it well enough to do it in a game. another thing crawford has over paul is that he's breaking out sick moves almost every single time he goes to the hoop. seems like every time he gets the ball he pulls out some street handles. plus imo his crossover has GOAT status.

oh that off the glass dunk was insane. i meant in terms of handles, but that behind the back and back move is pretty difficult you're right. i see it so damn much and crawford makes it look so easy that it doesn't seem as nasty. the thing is jamal gets away with ridiculous carries. everytime he crosses someone it looks like a blatant carry to me and they rarely get him on it. i'm not complaining, being a fan and all, i'm just saying.

you're right though, crawford definitely has overall better handles than cp3, but find be a play where jamal does something hotter than what chris did to anthony carter off the dribble.

[BankShot]

nah.. crawford throwing it off the board to himself while in the air and dunking it >>> anything paul has ever done. also that behind the back then back in the other direction move he uses to set up his floater in transition is incredible. have you ever tried that? i swear its the hardest effing move to do, i've practiced it a bunch of times and still can;t do it well enough to do it in a game. another thing crawford has over paul is that he's breaking out sick moves almost every single time he goes to the hoop. seems like every time he gets the ball he pulls out some street handles. plus imo his crossover has GOAT status.

Granted I haven't watched much Jamal Crawford for at least a few years, but I'm hesitant, to say the least, to think that his crossover could be anywhere near the GOAT

[e20dyl4n]

another thing crawford has going for him.. biggest loser in the game. his handles get him nowhere

[StroShow4]

Granted I haven't watched much Jamal Crawford for at least a few years, but I'm hesitant, to say the least, to think that his crossover could be anywhere near the GOAT

who's is better? iverson? hardaway? meh. crawford has a ****ing sick crossover. hate on him all you want for chucking or whatever but his handles are incredible. i've never seen anyone do some of the moves he is capable of doing.

[konex]

I think efficiency has to be as much a factor as flash. Paul has the ball EVERYTIME..making crazy moves/passes and he hardly ever turns it over..

Am I the only one REALLY impressed by the move he put on AC? He was trapped, got away and made the defender do a 360 as he blew by :bowdown:

[geeWiz15]

I feel like the world has kind of forgotten about Allen Iverson. nobody has better handles than AI. in fact that might be AI's problem. he handles the ball so effortlessly there's no real reason to pass to a guy unless he's wide open. before you call me a hater when is the last time AI has ever swung the ball just to swing it?

[StroShow4]

before you call me a hater when is the last time AI has ever swung the ball just to swing it?

never.

i haven't forgotten about AI, but paul has him from an efficiency standpoint, and IMO crawford has him from the flashy standpoint, so there was no reason for me to bring him up.

[Penny4MVP2k]

Chris Conley, meet Mike Conley :D

www.youtube.com/watch?v=9IE9vFuCJN8

[Younggrease]

I think Deron Williams has a better handle and a better understanding of ball handling in general. Paul is more athletic so he can get to spots but it isnt because of better ball handling.

[LJJ]

Chris Conley, meet Mike Conley :D

www.youtube.com/watch?v=9IE9vFuCJN8

Every point guard in the NBA can do that with ease.

[geeWiz15]

i haven't forgotten about AI, but paul has him from an efficiency standpoint,
if you mean in terms of overall play, yeah. if you mean in terms of pure ball handling ability I don't agree with you. it's all academic though. Paul > AI, there's really no arguing that. and I don't think anyone would try.

[StroShow4]

if you mean in terms of overall play, yeah. if you mean in terms of pure ball handling ability I don't agree with you. it's all academic though. Paul > AI, there's really no arguing that. and I don't think anyone would try.

explain.. i'm not saying you're wrong, i just don't get what you mean by that.

[Valliant13]

Best is somewhat subjective, but Paul has the tightest, lowest handle...and best direction change.

[AznBBoyX]

AI's handles are revolutionary. Seriously, he often does stuff that you are taught fundamentally never to do such as dribble the ball really high. Despite all of this, you can never steal the ball from AI 1 on 1. His handles are just sick and so unique. When you watch him, it seems like the ball is on a yo yo string.

[Bruinlove]

Baron Davis

[Younggrease]

Best is somewhat subjective, but Paul has the tightest, lowest handle...and best direction change.

but he doesnt have that understanding of his moves and there effects the way Deron does....I havent seen someone break down guys like Deron does in a long long time.

the direction change is based on his athletism imo not the handle..

here is some Deron stuff...I might have to make a mix

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=79b0TtB1C6Q

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m41rqg-3qew

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sZ1psW4CM7w&feature=related

[pete's montreux]

The best move I've seen D-Will do was during the Rookie-Sophomore game when he was a Soph. The play was broken up right after he made the move, so I don't think I'll be able to find it anywhere. It was incredible.

[clayton]

BARON DAVIS and DWYANE WADE. They make CP3 look like a normie. Baron Davis has crazy and1-like moves. It's either you got it or you don't. Ane he doesn't. Hell... I bet even Hot Sauce could handle the ball better than CP3. That dude started performing moves since he was.... a kid.

[yobore]

BARON DAVIS and DWYANE WADE. They make CP3 look like a normie. Baron Davis has crazy and1-like moves. It's either you got it or you don't. Ane he doesn't. Hell... I bet even Hot Sauce could handle the ball better than CP3. That dude started performing moves since he was.... a kid.
I'm sure Paul's been practicing dribbling nonstop since he was little too. He may not have the "moves" but if you want someone to dribble the ball from point A to point B through defenders without turning the ball over I would take Paul. To me that's what determines "best handle."

[20 Dimes A Game]

Steve Francis.

[StroShow4]

BARON DAVIS and DWYANE WADE. They make CP3 look like a normie. Baron Davis has crazy and1-like moves. It's either you got it or you don't. Ane he doesn't. Hell... I bet even Hot Sauce could handle the ball better than CP3. That dude started performing moves since he was.... a kid.

too bad hot sauce's "moves" aren't even legal in a real basketball game. thats why he sucks. he spent his whole life practicing stuff you can't even do in a real game.

and ball handling isn't all about "tricks" or "moves" anyways. thats why i have chris paul as a better ball handler than jamal crawford even though crawfords moves are superior to anyone else in the league.

[Mateo]

^^ Exactly. The most important thing about ball handling is not turning the ball over. Davis is an average ball handler.

[Younggrease]

^^ Exactly. The most important thing about ball handling is not turning the ball over. Davis is an average ball handler.

not all turnovers are due to ball handling...There are bad passes, misxommunications etc..

[StroShow4]

not all turnovers are due to ball handling...There are bad passes, misxommunications etc..

i was considering passing (well, more the ability to create shots for yourself and others off the dribble) as part of ball handling. so turnovers are a factor.

[el_locoteee]

Aaron Brooks

[mrpibb]

Chris Conley, meet Mike Conley :D

www.youtube.com/watch?v=9IE9vFuCJN8
Too bad he was a bust, huh?

[WeJustNeedaRing]

Best handles = KB24, then next would be Chris Paul, or Iverson

[Unreal Skill]

Iverson, Kobe, Tmac

[Loki]

but he doesnt have that understanding of his moves and there effects the way Deron does....I havent seen someone break down guys like Deron does in a long long time.

the direction change is based on his athletism imo not the handle..

here is some Deron stuff...I might have to make a mix

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=79b0TtB1C6Q

The moves at the 18 and 35 second marks in that video are amazing. He gives really committed fakes and jukes. Lots of guys have fast "twitch" moves, but few guys can commit as far or with as much weight/distance in each direction on each fake as Deron can. That's what sets him apart and gets the defenders on their heels. It helps that his crossover is lightning quick.

That move in the video where he goes over the screen, goes between his legs thinking there's a seam, and then right back between his legs back-to-front, then turns the corner, crosses over and drains the J is amazing. I think it was vs. Detroit. I closed the video already. :oldlol:

[KINGD]

Kobe has the best handles.

[StroShow4]

here's why i always bring up crawford's name in any discussion about handles. his array of moves is unmatched in the league today (like i said, i would probably still rank paul ahead of him as an overall ball handler though).


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Crs-QT1DERo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vz5DXIezqr4&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t3wkXcMgpgM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bf52QvqAKQ8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kBDAKWM26dw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bmPwwmz91lw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H8M9BoeAPsU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=loOQJOwr2uw


and this one is absolutely incredible.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aLZwd9qhjTg

i mean, are you kidding me with some of those moves? and he's doing this stuff like every game, its like a regular part of his game, nothing special to him.

[determined2win]

a lot of people have good handles, it's hard to decide who is best because they all have their own styles.

[konex]

Kobe has the best handles.

Kobe has nice moves in the open court and he can split the double with the best of them but his overall handles aren't really impressive compared to Paul or even LeBron.

His dribble is not constantly low and he often loses the ball in traffic. It''s weird cos he does some sick moves in ASG's but he rarely gets creative off the bounce in real games..

[90sDynasty]

The moves at the 18 and 35 second marks in that video are amazing. He gives really committed fakes and jukes. Lots of guys have fast "twitch" moves, but few guys can commit as far or with as much weight/distance in each direction on each fake as Deron can. That's what sets him apart and gets the defenders on their heels. It helps that his crossover is lightning quick.

That move in the video where he goes over the screen, goes between his legs thinking there's a seam, and then right back between his legs back-to-front, then turns the corner, crosses over and drains the J is amazing. I think it was vs. Detroit. I closed the video already. :oldlol:

Paul's got the ball on a string, but the things Deron did in that video were absolutely nuts, especially the one on Bruce Bowen. How he picked this up I have no idea.

[BFRESH44]

First of all, Prime Jason Williams (White Chocolate) handles > * (anyone in NBA history).



But today, it's Deron Williams. Dude literally yo-yo's the ball. Sick...

[mrhoopfan]

Crawford, Ridnour, Nash,a nd don't forget Rafer "Skip to my Lou" Alston

[mrpibb]

Nothing like a head to head comparison, right?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PplUfTNUk60

[90sDynasty]

Nothing like a head to head comparison, right?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PplUfTNUk60

Paul's a lot safer with the ball though, he's never reckless with the handle.

But, that video just shows a mismatch, Deron looks twice his size.

[yobore]

Nothing like a head to head comparison, right?

you're right
from last week http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s1FHrtkMMYs

[nou1990]

jason kidd

[Copperhead]

Where was Deron going? He was almost headed out of bounds.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s1FHrtkMMYs

[DOMINATOR]

Skip to my lou has the best handles... except maybe jason williams in his prime.

[90sDynasty]

Where was Deron going? He was almost headed out of bounds.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s1FHrtkMMYs

That epitomizes Chris Paul right there. He doesn't over-do it, everything he does with the ball seems necessary, no wasted motion.

[mrpibb]

you're right
from last week http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s1FHrtkMMYs

Touche. It's only fitting that even though Chris Paul made the sick cross over, Tyson Chandler got to dunk over D-Will XD

We'll see you next time! That was only D-Will's second loss to Chris Paul in the NBA, and you almost gave it back!

[otmtheshank]

here's why i always bring up crawford's name in any discussion about handles. his array of moves is unmatched in the league today (like i said, i would probably still rank paul ahead of him as an overall ball handler though).


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Crs-QT1DERo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vz5DXIezqr4&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t3wkXcMgpgM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bf52QvqAKQ8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kBDAKWM26dw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bmPwwmz91lw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H8M9BoeAPsU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=loOQJOwr2uw


and this one is absolutely incredible.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aLZwd9qhjTg

i mean, are you kidding me with some of those moves? and he's doing this stuff like every game, its like a regular part of his game, nothing special to him.

Crawford's pretty much the only reason that I still watch the Knicks. You know he's going to pull out a couple tricks each game, and usually, he'll pull them off. I still hate him for what he did to Kirk though. That move was just ridiculous. I can't even get close to doing some of the things Jamal does without a defender in front of me, and yet he pulls them off during a game.

[geeWiz15]

whoever brought up Deron's direction change is right on. he's probably the least athletic player I've ever seen break down a defense as effortlessly as he does. he's a lot like Sam Cassell that way, only a lot better than Cassell on both ends.

[Da KO King]

Deron Williams' handle is better than Chris Paul's.

Paul gets out of control quite often but his hand strength/quickness allow him to recover in time to make the play. Deron is never out of control and can link dribble types, moves, and speed effortlessly.

["Jesus"]

The first video of Crawford was just nasty.
Baron Davis and Iverson prime

[Bruinlove]

^^ Exactly. The most important thing about ball handling is not turning the ball over. Davis is an average ball handler.
Do you ever watch him play? He never gets jacked when he's dribbling the ball, his turnovers only come from bad passes. Even since his college days, I've never seen a guy get a steal from him. He is amazing and can dribble through triple teams at high speed and because he's so strong he can push guys away too. His strength combined with his skill make him the better ball handler

[YAH trick YAH]

I thought it was proved at the predraft camp that Deron was actually faster and quicker than CP3. Also had a better vertical.

[KenneBell]

In terms of pure dribbling skill these guys match him:

Williams
Crawford
Iverson

AI might have had the best of all time at one point. Almost unguardable.

[SsKSpurs21]

well according to the skills challenge, Deron Williams does.

[kidachi]

Rafer, JKidd, Nash, SMUSH :D

[Richie2k6]

Nobody crosses as often as Iverson. Does a quick, flashy dribble just about everytime he has the ball. It's become to common to see it from him that people don't recognize it as much. He crosses to often you hardly even notice it.

[chuckyboy34]

anyone notice how similar deron and booze look these days? are they related? they really look like brothers to me.

but yeah i think they all got great handles. iverson was one of the pioneers in "handles" so gotta give him the respect. baron's got the guts to do crazy stuff so he's automatically in. crawford is sick too. cp3 has speed with handles, making him very very dangerous. deron is pretty good too, but he's a bit slower but alot stronger.

[ILballa]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H8M9BoeAPsU

looks like he did that move back in his Chicago days too

[ILballa]

Where was Deron going? He was almost headed out of bounds.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s1FHrtkMMYs
:oldlol:

[Lebron23]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H8M9BoeAPsU

looks like he did that move back in his Chicago days too


Jamal Crawford was an exceptional player in his Chicago Days. I remember him dropping 50 points in the regular season.

[VCMVP1551]

Jamal Crawford was an exceptional player in his Chicago Days. I remember him dropping 50 points in the regular season.

He scored 52 or 53 last year vs Miami. He is now a 20 point scorer and a solid playmaker.

[StroShow4]

He scored 52 or 53 last year vs Miami. He is now a 20 point scorer and a solid playmaker.

it was 52, and he hit i think 17 consecutive shots, i saw it live. that game just might be the most incredible individual performance i have ever witnessed.

[ChrisConley]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H8M9BoeAPsU

looks like he did that move back in his Chicago days too

hahhahaa. wtf? did they count that travel? hot street sh!t for real.

those deron williams mixes were good, but did not convince me that he has a better handle than paul. that paul crossover on dwill was quite ridiculous. then pulls it back for an oop. nasty.

[w00terz]

AI has better handles.

[Da KO King]

those deron williams mixes were good, but did not convince me that he has a better handle than paul. that paul crossover on dwill was quite ridiculous. then pulls it back for an oop. nasty.
So you're evaluating dribble ability based on the quality of a highlight??? :confusedshrug:

[nou1990]

tony parker

[Diesel J]

Chris Paul has the best handle in terms of never turning the ball ever but the best handles as for as flash go now are Baron Davis and Jamal Crawford

[Skywalker]

Rafer Alston NO DUHHHH


edit: Pargo is pretty good

[ChrisConley]

So you're evaluating dribble ability based on the quality of a highlight??? :confusedshrug:

no. just commenting on a hot highlight. is that allowed? i think paul's a better handler due to the reasons previously mentioned. he dominates the ball, is the focal point of the offense, yet has a mind boggling assist to turnover ratio, and just a low turnover per game average in general. that added to the fact that he's capable of pulling out sick behind the back moves and crossovers. i'm pretty sure all of this has been mentioned.

[Dwight_Howard12]

Rafer Alston ???

[Da KO King]

no. just commenting on a hot highlight. is that allowed? i think paul's a better handler due to the reasons previously mentioned. he dominates the ball, is the focal point of the offense, yet has a mind boggling assist to turnover ratio, and just a low turnover per game average in general. that added to the fact that he's capable of pulling out sick behind the back moves and crossovers. i'm pretty sure all of this has been mentioned.
perfectly fine...

I still think it's Deron. Like Chris Paul, Deron dominates the ball but has a good turnover rate. Deron also has the ability to effortlessly link all his dribble types/speeds/moves together.

Chris Paul on the other hand frequently has bad bounces when trying to quickly link into a left-handed move. Chris does however have the uncanny ability to recover from those bad bounces quickly.

[Diesel J]

Where was Deron going? He was almost headed out of bounds.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s1FHrtkMMYs

:oldlol: sick

[Mr_Basketball#1]

Too bad he was a bust, huh?
Nope...Give him a chance.

[Mr_Basketball#1]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H8M9BoeAPsU

looks like he did that move back in his Chicago days too
I remember one time when he shook the sh*t out of Pierce. Blew right past him and layed it up in reverse. Siiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiick.

[ecthelion]

First of all, Prime Jason Williams (White Chocolate) handles > * (anyone in NBA history).



But today, it's Deron Williams. Dude literally yo-yo's the ball. Sick...
Jason Williams is flat out the greatest ballhandler ever. Period.
No one has handles better than whiteboy right there.

http://jasonwilliams55.110mb.com

[dbugz]

No one. Chris Paul :bowdown:

[Rameek]

Nothing like a head to head comparison, right?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PplUfTNUk60
he is using a pick and roll whats so sick about that...

I prefer Deron right now only because he can shoot when he hesitates it freezes the defender. Also when he makes moves he never stops his dribble like most other guards.

[wang4three]

Hot sauce.

[Diesel J]

Cp3 did some tricky ball handling move in the Pacers game tonight in the 3rd qtr.It happened so quick that I can't describe it but it froze the entire Pacers team and even the Pacers color guys lol

[dafunkphenom]

CP3 is the best right now. But one gripe against him - He carries alot.

[yobore]

Cp3 did some tricky ball handling move in the Pacers game tonight in the 3rd qtr.It happened so quick that I can't describe it but it froze the entire Pacers team and even the Pacers color guys lol
they never even showed a replay of it, never got a good look at it

[icemanfan]

I think Deron Williams has a better handle and a better understanding of ball handling in general. Paul is more athletic so he can get to spots but it isnt because of better ball handling.
I honestly agree BUT I think it is due to coaching. They are on the same level IMO.

[Diesel J]

they never even showed a replay of it, never got a good look at it

you saw that play though,right?

[yobore]

you saw that play though,right?
yeah he was getting collapsed on along the baseline then all the defenders stopped and he just walked out of it but I didn't really see anything.

[nbaLAker]

Deron Williams.

CP3 is phenomenal but D-will IS the future pg ambassador

....btw did anyone watch the skills challenge this year?

[23airjordan23]

Deron Williams.

CP3 is phenomenal but D-will IS the future pg ambassador

....btw did anyone watch the skills challenge this year?
That things a joke

[Y2Gezee]

Iverson. The end

[KeylessEntry]

The answer to your question:

Iverson


Davis has got anamazing handle on the ball as well, but he turns the ball over on passes a lot more than CP3 or Dwill.

[ruslan]

AI, there is no one close...

[Showtime]

Anybody else see that play against the Pacers yesterday? Paul was near the baseline, driving, and had two Pacers guarding him, and he had West right behind him in the corner area. He dribbled the ball under his leg looking like he was passing it to West behind him, and froze the two defenders. He kept his dribble and went to the basket, dropping it off to Wright who got fouled.

[Copperhead]

Anybody else see that play against the Pacers yesterday? Paul was near the baseline, driving, and had two Pacers guarding him, and he had West right behind him in the corner area. He dribbled the ball under his leg looking like he was passing it to West behind him, and froze the two defenders. He kept his dribble and went to the basket, dropping it off to Wright who got fouled.

That was crazy. I had to rewind it a few times. Pacers' commentator Quinn Buckner said players would normally try that move with two hands and Paul did it with one. It happened so fast I was wondering why the crowd ooh'd and ahh'd. :oldlol:

[Diesel J]

Anybody else see that play against the Pacers yesterday? Paul was near the baseline, driving, and had two Pacers guarding him, and he had West right behind him in the corner area. He dribbled the ball under his leg looking like he was passing it to West behind him, and froze the two defenders. He kept his dribble and went to the basket, dropping it off to Wright who got fouled.


Yeah!That's the play Im talking about but I couldn't tell what he did.I need to see a video of it again.

[Diesel J]

Anybody else see that play against the Pacers yesterday? Paul was near the baseline, driving, and had two Pacers guarding him, and he had West right behind him in the corner area. He dribbled the ball under his leg looking like he was passing it to West behind him, and froze the two defenders. He kept his dribble and went to the basket, dropping it off to Wright who got fouled.

Im still looking for a video of this so I can see it again

[Coolaak]

http://youtube.com/watch?v=7lvYf08X6tc

[vert48]

too bad hot sauce's "moves" aren't even legal in a real basketball game. thats why he sucks. he spent his whole life practicing stuff you can't even do in a real game.

and ball handling isn't all about "tricks" or "moves" anyways. thats why i have chris paul as a better ball handler than jamal crawford even though crawfords moves are superior to anyone else in the league.You say this about Hot Sauce, but you have to know that Crawford's amazing behind the back to floater move (I swear it is like something out of Cirque du Soleil), is usually a travel because he includes an illegal pro hop. They don't call it, but it is still traveling.

[Lebron23]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Crs-QT1DERo

Jamal Crawford sonned Kirk Hinrich

[kidachi]

Billups..

[vert48]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Crs-QT1DERo

Jamal Crawford sonned Kirk Hinrich The NBA - Where traveling happens.

[Dizzle-2k7]

The NBA - Where traveling happens.

Yea I was thinking the same thing.. I love the reaction of the crowd though.. "ohhhh"

[20 Dimes A Game]

http://youtube.com/watch?v=7lvYf08X6tc

:roll:

[ruslan]

Allen iverson

[clayton]

AI is just move-spammer. Davis is the real deal.