NDEs...(Near Death Experiences)

[-primetime-]

These people are not liars...not all of them anyway...there is no way

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WOhtjodjiQE

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DOVawdK06HY

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UGpxfoF3SYg&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NPabMyVvC9s

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QavlsCL79k8

each of these are around 8 minutes long or so...but IMO it is well worth the time...

and there are tons more of these on YouTube

these videos have me convinced that there is an after life...

all of these stories are too similiar and there is no way that all of them are liars or just making up stories...

I am not saying that this is proof that the Bible is word for word correct...all i am saying is that I now believe that when i die there will be an after life for me....

some of these people see hell...

all of them see thier own body after they die....and then a light

IDK....I guess this is the only proof we have on this planet that thier is in a fact a God of some sort...

[Chalkmaze]

I was trying to find the article but can't... about a week ago there was some new evidence researchers had discovered.. about how they could artificially stimulate religious type of experiences by stimulating certain parts of the brain... So, it may be possible to stimulate certain areas of the brain, that may become active and produce hallucinating religious like experiences, feelings and thoughts during when the body becomes stressed from trauma for example...

[-primetime-]

I was trying to find the article but can't... about a week ago there was some new evidence researchers had discovered.. about how they could artificially stimulate religious type of experiences by stimulating certain parts of the brain... So, it may be possible to stimulate certain areas of the brain, that may become active and produce hallucinating religious like experiences, feelings and thoughts during when the body becomes stressed from trauma for example...
aahh...

but that does not explain how people are able to explain to the doctors and thier family the events that happened in the ER room while they were dead...

some of these people can tell the doctors exactly what they where doing and saying while they were working on them, because they were in the room watching the whole thing....looking at themselves!!!!

there is no other explaination other than we have a spirit...

[Chalkmaze]

aahh...

but that does not explain how people are able to explain to the doctors and thier family the events that happened in the ER room while they were dead...

some of these people can tell the doctors exactly what they where doing and saying while they were working on them, because they were in the room watching the whole thing....looking at themselves!!!!

there is no other explaination other than we have a spirit...

Actually there are other explanations, such as we are able to still able to record sounds around us and think even while unconscious. There are other possibilities too.

[DeuceWallaces]

These people are not liars...not all of them anyway...there is no way

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WOhtjodjiQE

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DOVawdK06HY

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UGpxfoF3SYg&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NPabMyVvC9s

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QavlsCL79k8

each of these are around 8 minutes long or so...but IMO it is well worth the time...

and there are tons more of these on YouTube

these videos have me convinced that there is an after life...

all of these stories are too similiar and there is no way that all of them are liars or just making up stories...

I am not saying that this is proof that the Bible is word for word correct...all i am saying is that I now believe that when i die there will be an after life for me....

some of these people see hell...

all of them see thier own body after they die....and then a light

IDK....I guess this is the only proof we have on this planet that thier is in a fact a God of some sort...

Are you allergic to paragraphs?

[SuperboyXX0018]

Very interesting. Check out these two people, they both speak about going to Heaven and having a life's review and they both speak about seeing themselves hurting someone else when they were kids and actually feeling the pain that person felt. And they both say other similar things like their knowledge being increased. Remember these are two totally different people who don't know eachother.


http://www.nderf.org/mary_anne_f's_nde.htm




http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NPabMyVvC9s&feature=PlayList&p=CC903629E8F63361&index=8

[Chalkmaze]

Also, be sure to check out his thread where he hears the demons and satan from a deep hole in the ground.

[Chalkmaze]

Your ignorance and arrogance is beyond belief.

You're one to talk...

[wTFaMonkey]

its all psychological people!!

[StroShow4]

dammit superboy, this thread could've been interesting. can't you take you're nonsense elsewhere? fyi, no one here is interested in your madness.

[baseketball4life]

this thread had potential

[wTFaMonkey]

.........yeah okay, so they're all liars or just had a "dream".:rolleyes:

yeah. its possible

take a look at hysterical neurosis or conversion disorder


people see what their mind tells them to see.

[StroShow4]

yeah. its possible

take a look at hysterical neurosis or conversion disorder


people see what their mind tells them to see.

don't bother dude, superboy's not interested in factual information. he bases his opinions solely on one book.

[wTFaMonkey]

don't bother dude, superboy's not interested in factual information. he bases his opinions solely on one book.
:D :D :D

yea. lol

i have proven him wrong before. might as well make him look stupid again
:cheers:

[Hawker]

Why did he delete his posts?

[Jackass18]

http://metgat.gaia.com/blog/2008/3/debunking_the_nde_debunkers

[Take Your Lumps]

brain synapses brain synapses brain synapses brain synapses brain synapses brain synapses brain synapses brain synapses brain synapses brain synapses

[Doomsday Dallas]

brain synapses brain synapses brain synapses brain synapses brain synapses brain synapses brain synapses brain synapses brain synapses brain synapses

You said this over and over...

explain this... how can a blind man who has a NDE describe
his surroundings?

Why do most NDE's seem to involve the same descriptions?

Brain Synapses... That's just not true. sorry.

I've met several people with these NDE's and they describe
something that is beyond this world's understanding.

Science only wishes it could explain this... and brain synapses
is it's theory.

[Chalkmaze]

Actually, I think most people would be quite surprised what blind people know, and how they perceive the world. I know a lot of blind people... I know some of them that get around so well, that their inlaws have accused them of faking being blind. I know blind people who use the computer to send emails and read the web, I know a guy that can figure out which direction he's going (north, south, east, west), most of the time... then there's stevie wonder... All this just to say... you'd be surprised what a blind person can pick up on.

[RidonKs]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cqDZUCMgf5Q

[baseketball4life]

Actually, I think most people would be quite surprised what blind people know, and how they perceive the world. I know a lot of blind people... I know some of them that get around so well, that their inlaws have accused them of faking being blind. I know blind people who use the computer to send emails and read the web, I know a guy that can figure out which direction he's going (north, south, east, west), most of the time... then there's stevie wonder... All this just to say... you'd be surprised what a blind person can pick up on.
yea i was sitting in the computer lab of my college and a blind guy came up and started using the comp and checking email and such, he put his face like 1 inch from the screen and was somehow using it properly and logged in on his first attempt with no help.. beats me :confusedshrug:

[dnyk1337]

yea i was sitting in the computer lab of my college and a blind guy came up and started using the comp and checking email and such, he put his face like 1 inch from the screen and was somehow using it properly and logged in on his first attempt with no help.. beats me :confusedshrug:

Is that really a blind person though? In my perfect world, a blind person can't see anything but black...:ohwell:

[-primetime-]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cqDZUCMgf5Q
I ran into this one...

for the first minute I was interested....

the I realized what was going on and I laughed....






but in all seriousness the events I posted in the OP are real.....those old ladies are not lieing.....they have no agenda

[Chalkmaze]

Is that really a blind person though? In my perfect world, a blind person can't see anything but black...:ohwell:

They are site impaired, legally blind, but they have partial site. Many people considered site impaired are able to work on computers that have things specially set up so that all the fonts are really super big. but where good vision is 20/20.. there's is like 20/1000 or 20/8000 (after wearing corrective lenses) which is super poor.

But I was talking about completely blind, not site impaired people earlier, many of them still can use computers with screen readers and memorizing lots of things. It's easy to mistake them, some people have tunnel vision, some see a blur, some see light and dark, and some see complete darkness.

[Doomsday Dallas]

I think any man or woman that is an athiest should have a good
sit-down-conversation with a person that claims to have a NDE.

How valuable is "witness testimony" ?

One guy says this and one guy says that... Who do you believe and
who do you choose not to believe? In our hearts we pic and decide
who is full of $hit and who is not.

Do you believe Roger Clemens? I think he is sooo full of $hit that
it's obvious... he used steroids probably throughout his entire career.
This is what I interpret as a bull$hitter... But there exsists a motive in his lie,... pride.... His pride was about to crash, but he failed to realize
that because he cared so much about his own pride & legacy, that he dug his own grave... He destroyed his own legacy... By being a liar.

My point is, people have felt or experienced something that is beyond
our world, and beyond our science... and I know it takes a certain
amount of faith to believe if there is truth to that. But when I see a guy
that is full of $hit... I will call him out... The way I can tell the
difference is through my heart... what does your heart tell you?
My heart tells me that I have a relationship with God.


I guess the bottom line is this... We all have 5 senses...
But IMO We all have a sixth sense that can't be explained by science....
What would you concider it to be? faith? phychic abilities?
prophecy? spitituality? mystic stylez? your soul?

Maybe it's time we started thinking outside the flesh and in the spirit.

That's my only advice.

[SuperboyXX0018]

Don't mess around with Ouija boards!!!


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EMhqq5F_RZ4&feature=related


This man got lucky.

[-primetime-]

I guess the bottom line is this... We all have 5 senses...
But IMO We all have a sixth sense that can't be explained by science....
What would you concider it to be? faith? phychic abilities?
prophecy? spitituality? mystic stylez? your soul?

Maybe it's time we started thinking outside the flesh and in the spirit.

That's my only advice.
I never thought that YouTube would make me think differently....but it has

too many old ladies/old men/people in general/ect. with the same story.....they can't all be liars....it is real

I am a believer.....and in a strange way I guess i can thank the internet for that

[SuperboyXX0018]

The Internet is saturated with information and stories that help prove the existence of God and the afterlife. People just aren't aware of that and that's why I do what I do.

[-primetime-]

The Internet is saturated with information and stories that help prove the existence of God and the afterlife. People just aren't aware of that and that's why I do what I do.
keep your posts like this and I will start to like you

[Doomsday Dallas]

The Internet is saturated with information and stories that help prove the existence of God and the afterlife. People just aren't aware of that and that's why I do what I do.

SuperBoy is very unpopular, but few people know that he
is my favorite poster...

I'm with you man.

[SuperboyXX0018]

SuperBoy is very unpopular, but few people know that he
is my favorite poster...

I'm with you man.


Appreciate it.:cheers:

[-primetime-]

I'm starting to come around on SuperBoy myself...

he is just trying to get his word out.....nothing wrong with that

[Day La Ghetto]

I believe some of those people. I've had an edp myself but I was just knocked out for a second from a medicine ball. Could see myself and walk around and bleh blah bleh. Lucid dreaming is another thing that could explain this but I don't buy it. Theres a god and if you have faith then he won't fail you. This crap scares me to think about though because i can actually visualize me getting hurt real bad and my spirit floating around, then my life flashing before my eyes.

[Take Your Lumps]

Witness testimony? Yeah, sorry...that's not how science works.

There's lots of people on the internet who claim to have seen bigfoot too.

I have a hard time letting go of logic and reason...I guess that's my sin. :)

[Chalkmaze]

Just something for some of you to ponder when thinking about how easy it is to fool the human mind http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BQ81GbzTZTE

Hypnosis, is a prime example of how peculiar the mind can be, how easy it is to trick it.

The power of suggestion is very strong...

If you want to see something bad enough, if your brain has had trauma, if your are questioning something and want proof, you can create it, and believe it completely.

[Psileas]

One of the best cases for NDE's (maybe not for the skeptics or scientists, but for NDEers themselves) is the numerous testimonies of people who claim they saw important future personal events, all of which would come to be true. Yes, you could make a "lucky guess" for a couple of things (although I don't know the degree in which a NDEer's brain is able to do that), but some events are too hard to predict. As an example, there was a NDE'er who saw that she'd be married 3 times, that her second husband would abuse her, that she'd bear 13 children and that 3 of them would be born dead. You tell me what are the possibilities to make all these guesses correctly, whichever drug your brain receives.

Science can't work based on personal testimonies (let alone the testimonies of NDE'ers, themselves, which are based on completely personal stuff), but this doesn't falsify them in any way.

[sixerfan82]

i remember in highschool i had a pretty bad car accident, i knee'd the gear shift into reverse climbing out the passenger side door, fell out and rolled to the curb asap

couple seconds later that car is still going into reverse, managed to turn my head and saw the bumper coming at my head pretty full speed, had i not moved, my head would've been smashed between the back bumper and the curb

broke my collar bone that night, but i will NEVER forget that moment, you can decided for yourself if you consider that an NDE :)

[20 Dimes A Game]

Are you allergic to paragraphs?

:roll:

[StroShow4]

I'm starting to come around on SuperBoy myself...

he is just trying to get his word out.....nothing wrong with that

there is a difference between trying to get your word out and trying to force your beliefs on every single person you come into contact with.

[HardTattooedThug]

Primetime....you are a good poster, so take the time to understand that there is no afterlife. You are right, those people are not lying. What you don't seem to understand is what they are "seeing" is no different than vividly picturing Vince Carter do a windmill.....it is all in the person's head. As the body begins to shut down and cease functioning the brain can experience vivid images. None of it is real though, they are seeing products of involuntary imagination. This has been proven, and in fact is very common as the central nervous system and brain begin their descent from compicated switchboard to nothingness.

[Sharas]

i don't believe those people are lying...but i do believe there are rational explanations. similar experiences have been triggered experimentally...and also, most people tend to see something which coincides with their personal beliefs.

[HardTattooedThug]

i don't believe those people are lying...but i do believe there are rational explanations. similar experiences have been triggered experimentally...and also, most people tend to see something which coincides with their personal beliefs.


of course.....it's their brain, cluttered with endless information. As it beings to shut down, its only natural that some of what they see will relate to their beliefs. The visuals are manifestations of their brains.

[Psileas]

As the body begins to shut down and cease functioning the brain can experience vivid images. None of it is real though, they are seeing products of involuntary imagination. This has been proven, and in fact is very common as the central nervous system and brain begin their descent from compicated switchboard to nothingness.

When was it proven? Is there any source to confirm that brains of people who were actually near death were scanned and were "seen" producing certain images? And did these people subject to the scan verify that they saw these images, as well? If not, what kind of real proof is there?

I sometimes tend to get a little agnostic towards the matter of afterlife (or, better, after-consciousness, since, by biology terms, there can't be a term like "afterlife"), but this doesn't mean I will ignore people's testimonies because of the existance of scientific theories which haven't been verified.

[-primetime-]

Primetime....you are a good poster, so take the time to understand that there is no afterlife. You are right, those people are not lying. What you don't seem to understand is what they are "seeing" is no different than vividly picturing Vince Carter do a windmill.....it is all in the person's head. As the body begins to shut down and cease functioning the brain can experience vivid images. None of it is real though, they are seeing products of involuntary imagination. This has been proven, and in fact is very common as the central nervous system and brain begin their descent from compicated switchboard to nothingness.
we all see the same thing???....that doesn't make sense to me...

how was that girl able to tell her mother the conversation she had with her grandmother while they were in the hospital cafeteria???

she was in another room altogether!!!!

lets say you guys are right and it is just something the brain goes through when it shuts down.....well then why do we all go through the exact same things????....

all of them went through these steps:

1. seeing themselves dead....looking down at themselves

2. seeing a light at the end of a dark tunnel....and wanting to go toward it

3. feeling a sense of freedom, as though they had been there before and they were just traped in a body on earth

4. feeling an unbelievable sense of love and being loved

5. (2 of them that I posted) understanding that time only exists on earth and that there was no "time" in the afterlife and suddenly understanding the concept of "an eternity"

6. (2 of them that I posted) being shown a glimpse of hell and that the pain of it is being alone in the dark for an eternity

7. going through events of there past (some thier future) and feeling the pain they gave others

8. being sucked back into thier body


THEY ALL WENT THROUGH THE SAME THING!!!

(btw, only one of them mentions a religion or Jesus, all the others just saw "a God")

[HardTattooedThug]

Honestly primetime, the human brain is capable of pretty incredible things, that is why I do believe some people can be psycic, predict the furure, see what exists elsewhere........

The fact that in most of these examples everyone is related explains it even further. You are (genetically) very similar to your immediate relatives. The powerful human brain is capable of so much, you gotta realize just how complex and potent a human brain is. During its last hurrah, who knows what is happening to the receptors? Making commections with or about other family members is a lot more plausable than an afterlife.

[johndeeregreen]

I'm starting to come around on SuperBoy myself...

he is just trying to get his word out.....nothing wrong with that
It is when you try to force it on people.

[-primetime-]

Honestly primetime, the human brain is capable of pretty incredible things, that is why I do believe some people can be psycic, predict the furure, see what exists elsewhere........

The fact that in most of these examples everyone is related explains it even further. You are (genetically) very similar to your immediate relatives. The powerful human brain is capable of so much, you gotta realize just how complex and potent a human brain is. During its last hurrah, who knows what is happening to the receptors? Making commections with or about other family members is a lot more plausable than an afterlife.
so in other words you do not believe in an after life and that when people flat-line the brain turns into a magical machine that can take you into other rooms and listen to what people are saying as well as predict the future???

I don't buy it...

I am sure there are thousands of cases of people that just had crazy dreams or whatever and thought what they saw was the after life but it wasn't...

I am also sure that the people I posted are telling the truth and that they didn't just go through some process of the brain shutting down...the brain may be amazingly powerful beyond what I know but the one thing it can't do scientifically speaking is predict the future or go into other rooms while your body is laying there dead....that is not science, that is something else.


I feel sorry for the fact that you believe this life on earth is all we have...I used to believe that was a possibility as well until I watched those....and it is a crappy feeling....I hope that one day you are able to believe there is more than this like myself, because living your life believing that this is all we have is VERY depressing...

[-primetime-]

One of the best cases for NDE's (maybe not for the skeptics or scientists, but for NDEers themselves) is the numerous testimonies of people who claim they saw important future personal events, all of which would come to be true. Yes, you could make a "lucky guess" for a couple of things (although I don't know the degree in which a NDEer's brain is able to do that), but some events are too hard to predict. As an example, there was a NDE'er who saw that she'd be married 3 times, that her second husband would abuse her, that she'd bear 13 children and that 3 of them would be born dead. You tell me what are the possibilities to make all these guesses correctly, whichever drug your brain receives.

Science can't work based on personal testimonies (let alone the testimonies of NDE'ers, themselves, which are based on completely personal stuff), but this doesn't falsify them in any way.
Exactly...

Science an not prove they are not real...

and science and can not prove that "Brain Synapses" theory either....because it is just a "THEORY"...

I doubt many of you at all watched all of those videos that i posted...I urge you to watch them because IMO those are stories that can not be explained by science...and if you do watch them all it will give you a sense of hope, like it has for me...

[HardTattooedThug]

It's not depressing, it's a relief. Not to mention the turth. I think there is definately life on planets in other galaxies, and since the universe is theoretically endless the possibilities are infinate.........

however, there is no connection bewteen any of this and a deceased human being. Once you are gone you are gone.

The problem is you are looking at it from a self-centered point of view, by saying that this is "all we have". Understand that life, the world, the universe will all go on long after you and I are gone. That is not depressing at all. Just becasue you and I won't be able to see it after we die doesn't mean its not there.

I can understand you being unsure after seeing those vidoes, but they are only one tiny bit of information that could explain the possibility of an afterlife. You are going on and on about how improbable it would be for the videos to be a result of brain reactions yet make no effort to acknowledge any explanation of how an afterlife could actually work, either scientifically or logically.

[-primetime-]

It's not depressing, it's a relief. Not to mention the turth. I think there is definately life on planets in other galaxies, and since the universe is theoretically endless the possibilities are infinate..........
there is no way you can be 100% sure of that...

to say that you are 100% sure that there is no life after death is just as ignorant as a someone from any religion saying they are 100% they know who God is...



The problem is you are looking at it from a self-centered point of view, by saying that this is "all we have". Understand that life, the world, the universe will all go on long after you and I are gone. That is not depressing at all. Just becasue you and I won't be able to see it after we die doesn't mean its not there..
How the hell is that not depressing....you will believe that you will disappear and NEVER exist to see anything again....EVER....and you say that is not depressing????


I can understand you being unsure after seeing those vidoes, but they are only one tiny bit of information that could explain the possibility of an afterlife. You are going on and on about how improbable it would be for the videos to be a result of brain reactions yet make no effort to acknowledge any explanation of how an afterlife could actually work, either scientifically or logically.
you are right, I can not do that....no one can that is alive on this planet....you just have to have faith I guess....and let me tell you that after watching those videos that faith is not a "blind faith"....I am not blindly believing in some story here....i am believing based on what I have heard and the information I was given from those people...and if I am wrong then I have nothing to lose...

If you want to talk Science then I will tell you about something else that science can't explain....and that is how we exist at all....i watch the science channel all the time...I saw a special of this scientist who believed in a higher power due to one thing...

and that one thing is this:

Science and math can explain everything in the universe...everything adds up numbers wise and it all make sense except for one thing....once they go all the way back to when the "big bang" happened the numbers do not add up anymore, the math is broken....no one can explain what caused the big bang, it makes no sense.....and no one can explain why we exist or how anything at all exists...and that is the biggest piece of the puzzle

[Doctor K]

Dude, this is probably staged.


They are all in like the same show, they probably all got selected for being good actors, and they all did this.

[-primetime-]

Dude, this is probably staged.


They are all in like the same show, they probably all got selected for being good actors, and they all did this.
they are all from totally different places dude....did you watch them all???

i seriously doubt that the one where the guy's face is melted off is an actor :rolleyes:

and I will go ahead and sterio type old ladies as not being liars...

why would they go out of thier way to lie about this???...they have nothing to gain....all they are trying to do is tell thier story

and there are literally thousands just like them dude....this is just a small sample of people who have flat-lined and been brought back...

[-primetime-]

another pretty good one...

this guy had two of them, one at age 9, and one at age 49

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qWPuRpNHFuk&feature=related

[-primetime-]

bump for others asking about it...

[Lebron23]

How Stuff works - Near Death Experiences

http://science.howstuffworks.com/science-vs-myth/extrasensory-perceptions/near-death-experience.htm

[-p.tiddy-]

How Stuff works - Near Death Experiences

http://science.howstuffworks.com/science-vs-myth/extrasensory-perceptions/near-death-experience.htm
this is a decent write up actually...no one knows how NDEs work...(and they say exactly that)

for those that think it can be dismissed as brain activity, they just have no idea how complex the situation is


reasons to believe that they are not a product of the brain:

-they take you out of your body, to rooms and places where your body is not located
-blind people can see for the first time, their brain had nothing to work with for it to be dreamed.
-and the numero uno reason, THEY HAVE BEEN SHOWN TO HAPPEN WITHOUT ANY BRAIN WAVES!!!...meaning, it is impossible they were a product of the brain.

[rufuspaul]

this is a decent write up actually...no one knows how NDEs work...(and they say exactly that)

for those that think it can be dismissed as brain activity, they just have no idea how complex the situation is


reasons to believe that they are not a product of the brain:

-they take you out of your body, to rooms and places where your body is not located
-blind people can see for the first time, their brain had nothing to work with for it to be dreamed.
-and the numero uno reason, THEY HAVE BEEN SHOWN TO HAPPEN WITHOUT ANY BRAIN WAVES!!!...meaning, it is impossible they were a product of the brain.

Fascinating shit. They also seem to occur universally regardless of a person's belief of what happens in the afterlife or even if there is an afterlife. Kind of comforting really.

[-p.tiddy-]

Fascinating shit. They also seem to occur universally regardless of a person's belief of what happens in the afterlife or even if there is an afterlife. Kind of comforting really.
yes, if they are a "brain trip" it is really quite an amazing coincidence that the thousands of people that report them are all having the same exact dreams...

-worm hole tunnel
-overwhelming love
-remembering that this place is where they started, and that Earth is really the "dream"
-given a life review
-meet dead loved ones
-shown the past/future etc
-etc

[Lebron23]

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/aug/15/near-death-experience-brain-last-hurrah

http://theweek.com/article/index/248238/the-science-behind-near-death-experiences


http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-2390236/Near-death-experiences-explained-Surge-brain-a

Good Articles on NDE.

[-p.tiddy-]

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/aug/15/near-death-experience-brain-last-hurrah

http://theweek.com/article/index/248238/the-science-behind-near-death-experiences


http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-2390236/Near-death-experiences-explained-Surge-brain-a

Good Articles on NDE.
some people at the University of Michigan killed some rats and saw their brain activity go nuts...that isn't anything new at all

There have been NDEs on humans where the brain waves were recorded and the brain waves were also non-existent

If it was just a brain trip then why does everyone have the exact same "dream"?

that study says nothing we didn't know and nothing about NDEs in general

[dr.hee]

If it was just a brain trip then why does everyone have the exact same l

Here's a study from a guy who favors a paranormal explanation (Pim Van Lommel): http://www.anomalistik.de/sdm_nde.pdf This paper is well known and the guy is respected by believers of supernatural stuff going on during NDEs.

He's listing the experiences people had during their NDE, and it's clear that it's not the "exact same". Not even close. Even if you believe in a supernatural explanation, it's still not true that theres this one universal experience all people share.

Here's the frequency of different NDE features as reported by patients in the study I've linked:

Awareness of being dead (50%)
Positive emotions (56%)
Out of body experience (24%)
Moving through a tunnel (31%)
Communication with light (23%)
Observation of colours (23%)
Observation of a celestial landscape (29%)
Meeting with deceased persons (32%)
Life review (13%)
Presence of border (8%)

So you can believe in some supernatural cause of course. But if your reason for this conclusion is this:


yes, if they are a "brain trip" it is really quite an amazing coincidence that the thousands of people that report them are all having the same exact dreams...

...then that's not really true. And just to clarify, I hope there's something great waiting after my death. But right now, there's simply not as much evidence for that as some want to believe.

Besides, I mean the majority of people simply doesn't have NDE's during clinical death. If the distribution was the other way around, I'm pretty sure that believers would point out that it can't be a coincidence that most people see something. But well, most simply don't. It seems like this aspect gets often ignored by believers.

And you have to be careful while reading personal experiences on sites like near-death.com. They really don't care about the quality of the stories people are posting. A lot of the people reporting their stories were never clinically dead in the first place (meaning their brain was alright, they were unconscious at best), or stuff like this quote taken from an NDE report from near-death.com:


After healing, Emanuel started his ministry of testifying to what he saw in heaven. Everywhere Emanuel goes, there are miracles. For example, in Rwanda he prayed and a very powerful witch, feared all over Rwanda, lost all of his powers! In Tanzania, Emanuel was imprisoned for preaching to and converting Muslims. While in prison, he prayed and a powerful wind destroyed the prison. Prison officials set him free the following morning! Right now, Emanuel ministers in Kenya and South Africa. He travels to different countries to share his testimony with others.

Sounds legit.

[-p.tiddy-]

No there is a very clear pattern that NDEs follow...some people might not recall some of the steps but over a huge study they all see the same things and go through the same steps.

On top of that they ALL are not only convinced they are real but they say it feels more real than life here on Earth. They also say it is a famiar place as in they know they had been there before life here in this universe.



If it was a dream state then NDEs would contain crazy things that make no sense...you know like a dream. In my dream last night I was being chased by an Elephant and then I was at the dentist office...made no sense. If NDEs were jyst hightened brain trips they woukd have randomness like that.

[-p.tiddy-]

Their was a neurosurgeon that was an atheist and NDE skeptic who just recentky had an NDE and wrote a book on it. He is a full believer now. Book is a nunber 1 seller and all profits going to NDE awarness

[tpols]

eh.. just because something cant be explained doesnt mean you can attribute it to a heaven or god. Its all just one big cycle, we have very temporary conciousness for a bit and then are recycled into some different form.. the idea of you or me probably doesnt exist past this life, you get thrown back into 'everything'.

[dr.hee]

No there is a very clear pattern that NDEs follow...some people might not recall some of the steps but over a huge study they all see the same things and go through the same steps.

Link? And aren't you completely ignoring my post of one of the most well known studies on the subject done by one of the leading researchers of NDEs? So they actually talked to people after cardiac arrest. And they tend to disagree with your statement.

Also again, the majority of people coming back after being clinically dead didn't see anything.

[-p.tiddy-]

Link?
I'm on my phone...just look at the wikipedia page for NDE

[dr.hee]

I really don't get this about NDE believers...so if let's say 10% of cardiac arrest survivors report an experience, that's something important. They never ask what it could mean that 90% don't see sh*t.

[PistonsFan#21]

eh.. just because something cant be explained doesnt mean you can attribute it to a heaven or god. Its all just one big cycle, we have very temporary conciousness for a bit and then are recycled into some different form.. the idea of you or me probably doesnt exist past this life, you get thrown back into 'everything'.

you are speculating just as much as people that believe in God or heaven by saying that. there is no scientific evidence for one or the other. Its all about faith and belief at this point

[tpols]

you are speculating just as much as people that believe in God or heaven by saying that. there is no scientific evidence for one or the other. Its all about faith and belief at this point
Well what do you think happens? I just get the impression that, were here for .00000000000000000000000000001% of all time, yet while were here we make our present self out to be what we have been and always will be.

[-p.tiddy-]

I really don't get this about NDE believers...so if let's say 10% of cardiac arrest survivors report an experience, that's something important. They never ask what it could mean that 90% don't see sh*t.
Why is that hard to understand? Obviously them not recalling having one doesn't mean it didn't happen. Just about all NDEers say they were told and saw endless things they can't recall.

The neurosurgeon that had one says he had a complete understanding of dark matter and how the universe worked but now it is all lost.

[miller-time]

The neurosurgeon that had one says he had a complete understanding of dark matter and how the universe worked but now it is all lost.

Convenient. I bet he can use vague analogies for how the afterlife looked though!

I've read the book, definitely an interesting read but it didn't convince me of anything. The disease and medical aspect was far more interesting than NDE parts.

[Scholar]

Is that really a blind person though? In my perfect world, a blind person can't see anything but black...:ohwell:

Just a question in regards to this post ...

What if people who are born blind see the color red instead but don't know what color it really is?


:lebronamazed:

[miller-time]

Just a question in regards to this post ...

What if people who are born blind see the color red instead but don't realize it's really black?


:lebronamazed:

They don't see black or any colour for that matter. From what I understand there is a complete lack of sensation. It is hard to get your head around but imagine you have an eye on the end of your finger right now but it doesn't work. When you think about what that eye is looking at do you see black? Or is there just no sensation? That is what it is like to be blind. You have no sensation at all, not even black.

[Jello]

only gullible idiots would buy the book by the neurosurgeon.

The neurosurgeon that had one says he had a complete understanding of dark matter and how the universe worked but now it is all lost.
:lol :lol :lol :lol

[dr.hee]

Why is that hard to understand? Obviously them not recalling having one doesn't mean it didn't happen.


Really? That's quite funny. Memory is stored in the brain, I mean even the most ridiculous esoteric nutjobs would admit this. If you dont believe this, visit a nursing home or a neurological clinic. And since the NDE believers claim the experiences have nothing to do with brain activity at all and are happening while the brain is completely shut down, how could people "forget" this stuff?
Makes no sense at all. If it's happening independently from the brain, how is it all of a sudden dependent on whether the information is stored in you head or not?

To claim that all clinical death people are making magical supernatural journeys, and just don't remember it is ridiculous. I mean if a few people report their NDEs, they should be taken seriously, but if the majority says "I didn't see sh*t" you are not even admitting the possibility that they really saw nothing at all? You'd rather say 90% have forgotten everything? It's one thing to believe that NDE accounts are not simply a product of a dying brain. Alright, go ahead with that. But to simply claim that the other 90% experienced the exact same thing, but simply forgot it? I mean seriously? Are you that afraid of death that you need to create comfort by making up "proof" about an afterlife?

Is the same true for other things, too? I can't remember being ever abducted by aliens. Doesn't mean it didn't happen, right? Can you prove to me that Santa Clause never brought you presents? Can you prove that there aren't invisible fairies around your bed at night? Just because you can't see them doesn't mean they aren't there...

You know, I'm open to the possibility that there's more behind this than just a brain illusion. Would be pretty cool. But idiots who "believe" and have their mind already made up, claiming there's definite "proof" of an afterlife and sh*t are exactly the reason why credible scientists are reluctant to engage in more research on the topic. It's like believers are afraid that the result turns out disappointing, so they delude themselves into thinking it's a fact. Which it isn't. It's because of all those naive nutjobs that guys who want to finally make credible research about NDEs are faced with immense difficulties of getting financial support for their projects.

So why isn't it enough for you to say "We can't explain it at all.". That's alright. The most probable explanation is a natural one to me, but since I can't show how that works, it's not proven. But the same is true for the opposite. Whether you like it or not. I mean even this Eben Alexander guy admits that a possible explanation is that he saw all that stuff while his brain was rebooting. Then he says that's unlikely, a better explaination is that he was in actual heaven for 2 weeks, lol.

[-p.tiddy-]

dr. hee...your consciousness and your brain are separate, it is VERY common for them to report things that happened in rooms and locations that their body was not located in and verified as true 9girl can tell her parents their entire conversation while they were in the hospital cafeteria and she was flat-lining in a bed)...furthermore it has been shown that NDEs can happen WITHOUT BRAIN WAVES (meaning it is impossible they are dreamed)...almost all NDEers come back saying that they have lost memory of most of their NDE, that is very normal...and it seems obvious to me that many would lose memory of them all together...

http://www.near-death.com/experiences/research27.html

^^^ there is a study done by NDEers about memory of their NDE...I suggest you read it.



But idiots who "believe" and have their mind already made up

the people that have made up their mind on this are the NDEers themselves...tell me this, how come all of the skeptics on this act as though they know more on this subject that the actual NDEers do? How come NOT A SINGLE ONE accepts the theory it is a dream or a brain trip? These people are trying their hardest to tell you guys this is realer than real but you refuse to listen to them...just give them a listen.

[-p.tiddy-]

Is the same true for other things, too? I can't remember being ever abducted by aliens. Doesn't mean it didn't happen, right? Can you prove to me that Santa Clause never brought you presents? Can you prove that there aren't invisible fairies around your bed at night? Just because you can't see them doesn't mean they aren't there...
Alien abductions are completely different than NDEs because ANYONE can claim to have been abducted and it has been shown the majority of them are BS (some may be very real though, I haven't written them off), but with NDEs you have to have flat-lined in a hospital. You have to have DIED. For the most part it is accepted by doctors and science that they are a very real occurrence, the similarities are extreme and are too much to suggest everyone decides to lie right away when they wake up in ER.

the Santa and fairy stuff is silly and has nothing to do with anything, and I think I probably could actually prove that Santa is fake and doesn't bring me presents...

[-p.tiddy-]

So do you believe in Mormonism then too? Joseph Smith's proof is as impressive and credible as this doctor's.
are there literally thousands or millions of others that had the same experience as Joseph Smith?

[miller-time]

http://www.near-death.com/experiences/research27.html

^^^ there is a study done by NDEers about memory of their NDE...I suggest you read it.

I don't know what you think a study is, but that is not one.


are there literally thousands or millions of others that had the same experience as Joseph Smith?

If the research methodology is poor quality (which it is because all of the data is anecdotal) it doesn't matter if it is one person with the experience or a billion. People are wrong about things all of the time but appealing to the majority is just as fallacious as appealing to authority (which you did agree with when we were talking about Einstein and Hawking's beliefs earlier). As much as you like to think there isn't, there are massive differences between the stories. The neurosurgeon Dr Eben had a rather strange time in the "after-life" compared to say Pam Reynolds, some things were the same, but some things were glaringly different.

[-p.tiddy-]

I don't know what you think a study is, but that is not one.
It is a gathering of quotes and input from many different NDEers...how is that not a study ?




If the research methodology is poor quality (which it is because all of the data is anecdotal) it doesn't matter if it is one person with the experience or a billion. People are wrong about things all of the time but appealing to the majority is just as fallacious as appealing to authority (which you did agree with when we were talking about Einstein and Hawking's beliefs earlier). As much as you like to think there isn't, there are massive differences between the stories. The neurosurgeon Dr Eben had a rather strange time in the "after-life" compared to say Pam Reynolds, some things were the same, but some things were glaringly different.
the majority of them are not at all 'massively different'...you die, you float around your body for a while maybe minutes, hours, or even days, perhaps you travel to other rooms or even other cities, then you seen a tunnel with a light at the end, then you have a flash back of your entire life much of which you forgot you experienced, you can literally feel all of the pain and suffering you caused others as well as enjoy the love and happiness you gave to others, you notice the absence of "time", a second and a million years feel like the same thing, you meet spirits that you recognize and you understand this place is where you were before life on Earth, it feels very familiar...the spirits have no face or sexual orientation, nor can they speak any language, but you know what they are saying and you know exactly who they are. You are shown "the void", you are shown "God" who is really just a huge composite of EVERYTHING and not one single entity...you feel an overwhelming sensation of "love" and realize that is all that matters, you are disgusted with many of your actions on Earth and embarrassed...You are told many things about how and why everything is the way it is, many can see events in the future as well as the past, many report seeing their kids that haven't been born yet...you then realize that you have work to do on Earth and beg for them to let you back in your body which happens in all NDE cases obviously.

that is a quick break down of a typical NDE


There are slight differences between them but for the most part they follow that structure regardless of religion, age, race, or anything. Something MASSIVELY different than that would be like the dream you had last night compared to the dream you are going to have tonight. Where in one dream there was a clown fcking your mom and in the next dream you were riding a tiger holding a machine gun.

[RidonKs]

It is a gathering of quotes and input from many different NDEers...how is that not a study ?
because by that logic, a thread on ISH would be a "study" on whatever topic happens to be under discussion.

[-p.tiddy-]

Miller...how come there isn't a single example of someone who has had an NDE and thinks it could have been a 'brain trip'?

these people 'KNOW' there is an afterlife...to them it is fact...to ALL OF THEM

Miller, if you had an NDE, there is a 100% chance you would come back saying "nevermind I was wrong, they are definitely real"

you think you are any different than they are? that somehow you would have the insight to know it was just your brain messin with you? There are literally hundreds if not thousands of atheists that have had NDEs and become theist because of it...

[-p.tiddy-]

because by that logic, a thread on ISH would be a "study" on whatever topic happens to be under discussion.
okay, I think if there are 100 people all breaking down what LeBron did in his last game that it qualifies as a 'study'...even though it isn't organized or presented like this one is

actually for a fair comparison it would be the players that played all discussing and breaking down the game...not just 'fans'

[miller-time]

It is a gathering of quotes and input from many different NDEers...how is that not a study ?

Because that is just a collection of stories. A study requires you to try and disprove them, not to assume they are true and put them in a drawer. I can go to India and probably find a million people that claim to have seen or interacted with Krishna with absolute sincerity, but if I don't try and test the legitimacy of those stories (by attempting to disprove them) what have I done? Taken notes... not a study.

[Jello]

Miller...how come there isn't a single example of someone who has had an NDE and thinks it could have been a 'brain trip'?

these people 'KNOW' there is an afterlife...to them it is fact...to ALL OF THEM

Miller, if you had an NDE, there is a 100% chance you would come back saying "nevermind I was wrong, they are definitely real"

you think you are any different than they are? that somehow you would have the insight to know it was just your brain messin with you? There are literally hundreds if not thousands of atheists that have had NDEs and become theist because of it...
What a worthless post. Are you serious? You can't be this stupid.

[-p.tiddy-]

What a worthless post. Are you serious? You can't be this stupid.
are you trying to be ironic here?

[-p.tiddy-]

Because that is just a collection of stories. A study requires you to try and disprove them, not to assume they are true and put them in a drawer. I can go to India and probably find a million people that claim to have seen or interacted with Krishna with absolute sincerity, but if I don't try and test the legitimacy of those stories (by attempting to disprove them) what have I done? Taken notes... not a study.

so now you are focused on what is or isn't a 'study'...come on

that site is full of testimony from people all over the globe of every race and religion btw...

here is a study...er I mean a gathering of what they say about "religion":

http://www.near-death.com/experiences/research06.html

you should read it...regardless of weather or not it meets the criteria to be a 'study'

[Jello]

are you trying to be ironic here?
No irony. I think you're legit mentally retarded.

[-p.tiddy-]

No irony. I think you're legit mentally retarded.
do care to explain or just gonna troll?

really not sure why this subject would upset anyone this much...I take it you are a proud atheist who is offended at the idea you might be wrong or something? Or maybe you're just a child who got picked on too much today?

[miller-time]

Miller...how come there isn't a single example of someone who has had an NDE and thinks it could have been a 'brain trip'?

Can you demonstrate that? I think it would be safe to assume that not everyone who has had NDE has come forward and of that group it is possible that not all of them have believed it. Possible, but you could be right. We don't know.


these people 'KNOW' there is an afterlife...to them it is fact...to ALL OF THEM

What they think they know and what they do know are two completely separate things. There is no evidence yet that what they believe is true. Only that their experiences have a profound effect on them.


Miller, if you had an NDE, there is a 100% chance you would come back saying "nevermind I was wrong, they are definitely real"

I don't even know where to begin with that. It is likely I might respond that way, but it is not definitely 100%.

[Jello]

do care to explain or just gonna troll?

really not sure why this subject would upset anyone this much...I take it you are a proud atheist who is offended at the idea you might be wrong or something? Or maybe you're just a child who got picked on too much today?
Not gonna explain to a mental midget. Takes too much time

[miller-time]

here is a study...er I mean a gathering of what they say about "religion":

http://www.near-death.com/experiences/research06.html

you should read it...regardless of weather or not it meets the criteria to be a 'study'

I don't know what you expect me to do with that? It is just line after line of quotes that are not backed up by anything at all. Some of them are even bible quotes lol..

[-p.tiddy-]

Can you demonstrate that? I think it would be safe to assume that not everyone who has had NDE has come forward and of that group it is possible that not all of them have believed it. Possible, but you could be right. We don't know.
I've been reading up on this subject for years now, this thread is old a fck...I have yet to see ONE case of someone who questioned it...everything they say is the opposite of that. The only way I can see it happening is if someone thought they had one but didn't really and reported it as one.

if you could dig up just ONE example it would be the first I have seen.


What they think they know and what they do know are two completely separate things. There is no evidence yet that what they believe is true. Only that their experiences have a profound effect on them.
agreed...but don't you think it is eye opening that all of them think they KNOW? Why is it so hard to just listen to what they are saying and believe it? These people clearly aren't nut cases they are normal everyday people.

I don't even know where to begin with that. It is likely I might respond that way, but it is not definitely 100%.
I would say it is 100%, but I am happy you understand that it is 'likely'

[-p.tiddy-]

I don't know what you expect me to do with that? It is just line after line of quotes that are not backed up by anything at all. Some of them are even bible quotes lol..
yeah like eye witness testimony that a judge would see in court...only by thousands

why do you think it isn't significant?

doctors and scientists alike view NDEs as a very real occurance...what these people say is important in this topic

[RidonKs]

I've been reading up on this subject for years now, this thread is old a fck...I have yet to see ONE case of someone who questioned it...everything they say is the opposite of that. The only way I can see it happening is if someone thought they had one but didn't really and reported it as one.

if you could dig up just ONE example it would be the first I have seen.

A Non Believers Near Death Experience (http://wendythomasrussell.com/a-nonbelievers-near-death-experience/)


i found it by typing into google "near death experience non believer"

does that count primetime? seeing lights and tunnels, a vivid image of your friend's and family's feet as they attend your funeral? or do you have to see like your mother cradling a long lost sister cradled in her arms or who wins the superbowl in 2014?

[miller-time]

yeah like eye witness testimony that a judge would see in court...only by thousands

why do you think it isn't significant?

Because there has been no cross examination of the claims. And the very way the claims are put out makes me skeptical because it isn't unlike how young earth creationists or truthers put out their claims. I am not saying that makes them wrong or insignificant, but when people throw out large chunks of various information like that it makes it seem more like they are trying to prove a point rather than explore or discuss it. A wall of quotes is more like an overwhelming scattershot rather than a succinct and measured delivery of information.


doctors and scientists alike view NDEs as a very real occurance...what these people say is important in this topic

That all depends on the doctor or scientist in question (and their research methodology). Being a doctor doesn't make you objective, infallible, or incorruptible.

[-p.tiddy-]

A Non Believers Near Death Experience (http://wendythomasrussell.com/a-nonbelievers-near-death-experience/)


i found it by typing into google "near death experience non believer"

does that count primetime? seeing lights and tunnels, a vivid image of your friend's and family's feet as they attend your funeral? or do you have to see like your mother cradling a long lost sister cradled in her arms or who wins the superbowl in 2014?
you misunderstood...hundreds and thousands of athesits (non-believers) have had NDEs and come back theist (believers)

I am saying I have never once encountered a atheist have an NDE and come back saying "eh, that was probably just a brain trip, I'm still atheist"...ALL OF THEM, 100% come back thinking it was a real experience and not brain created.

and the vast majority of them are completely different as humans when they come back, end up being huge into charity and take on different personalities etc,...

[-p.tiddy-]

Because there has been no cross examination of the claims. And the very way the claims are put out makes me skeptical because it isn't unlike how young earth creationists or truthers put out their claims. I am not saying that makes them wrong or insignificant, but when people throw out large chunks of various information like that it makes it seem more like they are trying to prove a point rather than explore or discuss it. A wall of quotes is more like an overwhelming scattershot rather than a succinct and measured delivery of information.
you can cross examine their claims yourself though...I think the reason why some of what they say seems to come off different is because a lot of what they experience they claim is extremely difficult to put into words or express...they are in a different dimension where "time" doesn't exist that is very unlike this universe. The neurosurgeon even expressed that saying "I read what so and so wrote after having one and I couldn't really comprehend what they were trying to get across but now I understand completely what they felt"...


That all depends on the doctor or scientist in question (and their research methodology). Being a doctor doesn't make you objective, infallible, or incorruptible.
I have yet to see one say they don't really happen...regardless of what they think causes them, all of them that I have seen don't think these people are lying...they accept that it is a real occurrence

[-p.tiddy-]

Miller do you believe that there is life on other planets? if so why when there is no scientific proof of it?

see how that works?

[miller-time]

you can cross examine their claims yourself though...I think the reason why some of what they say seems to come off different is because a lot of what they experience they claim is extremely difficult to put into words or express...they are in a different dimension where "time" doesn't exist that is very unlike this universe. The neurosurgeon even expressed that saying "I read what so and so wrote after having one and I couldn't really comprehend what they were trying to get across but now I understand completely what they felt"...

First of all the scattershot format makes it incredibly difficult and tedious to examine. Additionally a lot if not all of these quotes are far removed from the original source. This is not how studies are done. Whether you accept NDEs or not if you are presenting case studies you need to put in the work yourself. You can't just say "Joe said x, y, z" and "Phil said x, y, z" and then conclude they are telling the truth.


I have yet to see one say they don't really happen...regardless of what they think causes them, all of them that I have seen don't think these people are lying...they accept that it is a real occurrence

The phenomena is happening, no one is debating that. The debate is whether they are metaphysical or natural.


Miller do you believe that there is life on other planets? if so why when there is no scientific proof of it?

see how that works?

No I don't see how it works. I believe that there is a high probability for the existence of life elsewhere in the universe because 1. We know life exists in the universe and 2. We know life can exist under all sorts of conditions (some bacteria can even live in space). But I don't believe in any particular life form existing right now, not until I see evidence of their actual or historical existence. Whether it is simple like a bacterium or complex like a human I accept it is possible but not that they are.

[-p.tiddy-]

First of all the scattershot format makes it incredibly difficult and tedious to examine. Additionally a lot if not all of these quotes are far removed from the original source. This is not how studies are done. Whether you accept NDEs or not if you are presenting case studies you need to put in the work yourself. You can't just say "Joe said x, y, z" and "Phil said x, y, z" and then conclude they are telling the truth.
You can't conclude as 'scientific fact' but that is what would happen in a court room though...Joe saw Bill kill the woman and Phil saw Bill kill the woman?...therefor Bill must have killed the woman

The phenomena is happening, no one is debating that. The debate is whether they are metaphysical or natural.
there is no 'proof' the phenomena is happening yet we know they are you say? that can only mean that we are accepting what these people are saying and trusting it based on the fact thousands are saying very similar things.

No I don't see how it works. I believe that there is a high probability for the existence of life elsewhere in the universe because 1. We know life exists in the universe and 2. We know life can exist under all sorts of conditions (some bacteria can even live in space). But I don't believe in any particular life form existing right now, not until I see evidence of their actual or historical existence. Whether it is simple like a bacterium or complex like a human I accept it is possible but not that they are.
I also believe the odds of life outside our own planet are high for similar reasons as yourself as well as dimensions outside of our own 3D universe...yet there is no proof for either

[miller-time]

You can't conclude as 'scientific fact' but that is what would happen in a court room though...Joe saw Bill kill the woman and Phil saw Bill kill the woman?...therefor Bill must have killed the woman

Bill needs to have his own defense though. Joe and Phil could have mistaken Tim for Bill.


there is no 'proof' the phenomena is happening yet we know they are you say? that can only mean that we are accepting what these people are saying and trusting it based on the fact thousands are saying very similar things.

I'm willing to accept that something is happening based on their claims. Whether they are completely delusional or are experiencing the supernatural I don't know. But I think it is safe to assume they aren't all making it up (individually) and aren't in on a hoax (together). That is also possible, but it seems a bit too complex of an explanation (especially in dealing with human behavior). If that were the case then we would be looking at an entirely new area of social psychology.


I also believe the odds of life outside our own planet are high for similar reasons as yourself as well as dimensions outside of our own 3D universe...yet there is no proof for either

I forgot to factor in the size of the universe - which is why I think there is a high probability for life elsewhere.

[-p.tiddy-]

Bill needs to have his own defense though. Joe and Phil could have mistaken Tim for Bill.
If the defense was "those people's word is not scientific fact your honor, perhaps they are all wrong" , it would be too bad for Bill


I'm willing to accept that something is happening based on their claims. Whether they are completely delusional or are experiencing the supernatural I don't know. But I think it is safe to assume they aren't all making it up (individually) and aren't in on a hoax (together). That is also possible, but it seems a bit too complex of an explanation (especially in dealing with human behavior). If that were the case then we would be looking at an entirely new area of social psychology.
okay good...we agree that not only is 'something' happening but also that these people believe the 'something' is very real, and ALSO that this 'something' has very similar features to it by the vast majority of the people that it happens to.

that's a good starting point at least


I forgot to factor in the size of the universe - which is why I think there is a high probability for life elsewhere.
I have similar reasons to think a high probability of other dimensions exist...

[Blue&Orange]

These people are not liars...not all of them anyway...there is no way


So you also believe in aliens abductions right?

[-p.tiddy-]

So you also believe in aliens abductions right?
Again to have an NDE you have to have DIED!

Any fool can claim they were abducted by aliens...however I don't rule out some of them as truth.

[rufuspaul]

So you also believe in aliens abductions right?


Does being anally probed count?

[Blue&Orange]

Does being anally probed count?
Well... you can always probe without abduct.