Tell me about Kevin McHale's post moves

[stephanieg]

When discussing Kevin McHale's greatness people will occasionally reference some nicknames for his post moves: "Worm & Squirm," "the White Salamander," and "the Slippery Eel."

Educate me please. The internet tubes fail me. All I've seen of him are highlight videos and maybe a game or two where I wasn't paying much attention to him specifically and I have no clue what these mean (although someday I plan on buying a boatload of NBA Finals DVDs to fix that). He appears to have a great up and under move and an ability to confuse the hell out of his defender which I'm guessing is either the eel or worm move. But what the hell is the white salamander?

[Showtime]

nvm.............

[tontoz]

I don't know about all those knicknames but McHale was basically unguardable by one guy. He has very long arms and had so many moves that whatever you tried to do defensively he had an answer for it.

Horace Grant was quoted one time as saying that there is just no way to play him.

[stephanieg]

Yep. He was the "torture chamber." Barkley talks about him every once in awhile as being the best player he ever went up against. You can find lots of quotes from various players saying how tough it was to guard him.

But...white salamander? :wtf:

[inclinerator]

i heard he could have average 45.3 points if he wanted to also he went on that show the moment of truth the 2nd guy to appear

[Remix]

i heard he could have average 45.3 points if he wanted to also he went on that show the moment of truth the 2nd guy to appear
how can you average 45 points a game by just wanting to?

[Lakerfan1-Iceland]

Well i was watchin the 1985 and 1987 finals the other day and the commentators were talkin about how before his knee injury wery many were talkin about Mchale as the league MVP.
He was THAT good!
He had knee and back problems that hindered him in the later part of his career but he was wery wery long with long arms and on offence you could not guard him when he was healthy he had some range but his back to the basket post game was awesome his footwork was amazing.

In the games i have seen he basically scored every way mind possible hooking,fade away, 2-3-4 pump fakes and up and under shots... etc etc etc he was just really skilled basketball player.
As a Laker fan i didnt like him at ALL but today him like Bird i appreciate greatness on the basketball floor.

Another player people routinely underrate and forget that is James Worthy!
He also was just amazing, DEFINATLY a player who on any other team was a 25-30 point scorer but on those Lakers teams he didnt need to score as much but he was the second option on offence behind Kareem, when the Lakers needed a bucket he was the man just give him the ball and move out of the way and let Big Game James go to work

[v-unit]

i heard he could have average 45.3 points if he wanted to also he went on that show the moment of truth the 2nd guy to appear

How do you decide to want to average 45.3 points a game? As if 45 isn't enough, having .3 extra would make a huge statement!

[PK3434]

I am too young to remember McHale's game but I hear all the time how hard he was to guard. Charles Barkley recently called him the best player he ever played against.

[GreatLakes]

Don't know about white salamander. In fact I don't really remember any nicknames for McHale. But as far as post moves go, best ever!:rockon:

[IBLEEDGREEN20]

his post moves were insane, and barkley recently said he was the best he ever went up against.. even though everybodys said that in this thread, i figured i would say it one more time

[Mateo]

garnett used to do the slippery eel all the time. it's the baseline move with a bunch of fakes and a spin to a fadeaway.

[dejordan]

don't know the nicknames of gumby's moves, but here's his scoring base that literally no one player could ever stop:

it all started with his ability to hit a turnaround fadeaway over either shoulder. mchale was 6' 10" with very long arms and very high shoulders, and he shot with that old school behind the head release that dirk uses. basically it was a shot that you had to leap and leap early for because he got it off really high and he got it off quick (think rasheed's fade). once he had that in place the rest was footwork. he taught garnett his footwork, so use that as a base, but picture it closer to the rim and with a more physical drop step to the baseline.

if you overplayed the turnaround, he could answer with a quick hook from either hand (think duncan here, quick wrist flick with a lot of touch, not the set up swing moves by shaq).

what made him truly uncoverable was his fakes on the fades and hooks that he paired with up and under countermoves. he would get guys out of position and just lean around and finish with finger rolls and touch shots (again, garnett and duncan are the only modern equivalents i can think of though neither is quite as good at scoring with the twisting off balance flip shots mchale used).

add to all that the fact that (before his foot and ankle injuries) he moved very well without the ball (his pick and roll with bird was insane) and really knew how to get position and you see that he was always a threat. he also cut really well and had great hands and awarenss (as you'll see in a lot of bird highights where he's the recipient of insane passes). he'd crash the offensive boards too, so no defensive set against him was ever finished until the rebound was secured. oh, and he could hit the j with decent range if you tried to pack the lane or the team went really big with him, chief and walton up front together (they'd play larry at the 2 with this lineup sometimes).

there's a reason he's the only player in nba history to ever shoot 60% from the field and 80% from the line.

[20 Dimes A Game]

This video is great and it breaks down the moves you mentioned. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qJCZTixzrOc&feature=related

[Manute for Ever!]

He just had so many post moves, but if you stopped one, he had a counter, and a counter to his counter and a counter to that cou..... you get the point.

[dejordan]

This video is great and it breaks down the moves you mentioned. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qJCZTixzrOc&feature=related
great vid. here's a vid kblaze posted a long time ago. very good:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dlSZC4TAYVc&feature=related

[BFRESH44]

Best up & under manuever EVER.

[Da_Realist]

Best up & under manuever EVER.

LOVE this move --> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MUJg6n_kUdo

[Round Mound]

With an 8ft Wingspam and the Most Educated of Post Moves.

He was Onstoppable and the Text-Book for Post Moves

[inclinerator]

onstoppable

[KevinNYC]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DopFnYmYoWE&feature=related#t=01m26s

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DopFnYmYoWE&feature=related#t=01m40s

Two nice plays in a row here. Even Manute (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DopFnYmYoWE&feature=related#t=02m25s) couldn't guard him.

[Shepseskaf]

Best up & under manuever EVER.
True.

He looked like a combination of Lurch and Herman Munster, in addition to being awkward as hell, but when dude got the ball down low it was pretty much two point.

[9512]

I remember the first time I went to basketball camp in the early 90s. And the first post move the coaches taught us was the Kevin McHale up and under move. McHale was well past his prime and close to retire but the coaches at that time didn't want us youngsters to forget the greatness of 80s basketball and the bread and butter move of this Celtic great.

I use it in pick up games frequently with great results.

[stephanieg]

I've watched a lot of old Celtic games since I made the OP. And I still don't think anyone knows what those names mean. Maybe he used them as pickup lines? "Hey baby, want to go back to my place and see my slippery eel?"

[abuC]

With an 8ft Wingspam



Uh, no.

[JohnnySic]

Best low post game I've ever seen. Hakeem's was prettier but no one had more moves than McHale.

[brisbaneman]

If only he were black, he'd get a lot more respect and people would come to him to learn post moves.

[RRR3]

If only he were black, he'd get a lot more respect and people would come to him to learn post moves.
:facepalm

[MichaelCheazley]

If only he were black, he'd get a lot more respect and people would come to him to learn post moves.

Hes been employed by nba teams so I think he'd only help his own players like he did with big AL.

[NugzHeat3]

Best low post game I've ever seen. Hakeem's was prettier but no one had more moves than McHale.

Show me a move McHale pulls that Hakeem couldn't.

McHale used the up and under more than Hakeem but Hakeem had the move in his arsenal though I'd say McHale's was definitely more effective due to his wingspan. I'd also say he has superior head and shoulder fakes but Hakeem's footwork and his athleticism (combo of quickness, balance, co-ordination) allowed him to pull some stuff McHale couldn't.

I've never seen McHale do this move.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o3ozK-mJc5c

@ the :52 mark, 1st possession of a Suns vs Rockets playoff game. Hakeem gets the ball on the left block, faces up, fakes Kleine with a jab, takes a dribble, gives him that nasty ball fake and turns and shoots the hook.

This is a move that he could do in variations as shown below.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fy26U455YRY

At :43, he does it to David Robinson in 1996 but instead of facing up, simply spins baseline, ball fakes, turns and lays it in.

At :52, spins baseline on Cherokee Parks, does the ball fake, turns and does another upfake on the defender helping out and lays it in.

Their instincts and how they reacted to to the defenders (a sign of how great their anticipation was) is about equal but the gap in athleticism, specifically their quickness sets them apart since it allowed Hakeem to do more moves. You think McHale could pull off that spinning dunk on Ewing in the finals ..... not happening.

Or this move right here, the actual Dream Shake, younger fans seem to interpret it as that famous move on Robinson but that was a variation of the ball fake.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vLxew3tYrVQ&list=FLLrA2eU3lluxLp6rq4AEDnA&index=33&feature=plpp_video

Above video @ 4:06 agains Perkins. Set up on the left block, takes a hard dribble, does a half spin fake towards the middle and goes baseline for the fadeaway.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nYxOxxEUZk0

Above video at 0:38 against Vlade Divac.

Another move McHale couldn't pull.

It should also be noted Hakeem got doubled a lot more so he couldn't show his moves off as easily. A lot of those moves people he made in the 1995 WCF were because the Spurs didn't double as much and went stretches with David Robinson guarding him in single coverage.

I'll wait till someone shows me a move McHale did that Hakeem could never pull off.

EDIT: Took a video off and linked another.

[Tha Catalyst]

If only he were black, he'd get a lot more respect and people would come to him to learn post moves.
Very easy to see here your opinion is a reflection on Dirk. Do you ever not think about him? Do you even like basketball or you just like Dirk? McHale is well respected and has helped NBA players, including KG.

[KevinNYC]

I've watched a lot of old Celtic games since I made the OP. And I still don't think anyone knows what those names mean. Maybe he used them as pickup lines? "Hey baby, want to go back to my place and see my slippery eel?"

I think most of the names for his moves are jokes.

[JellyBean]

When discussing Kevin McHale's greatness people will occasionally reference some nicknames for his post moves: "Worm & Squirm," "the White Salamander," and "the Slippery Eel."

Educate me please. The internet tubes fail me. All I've seen of him are highlight videos and maybe a game or two where I wasn't paying much attention to him specifically and I have no clue what these mean (although someday I plan on buying a boatload of NBA Finals DVDs to fix that). He appears to have a great up and under move and an ability to confuse the hell out of his defender which I'm guessing is either the eel or worm move. But what the hell is the white salamander?

There never really were any nicknames for his moves. He just had really great footwork for a post player. Then you throw in the fact that he was a white dude on a winning team, well things really opened up. The media took it to another level. But he was good back in the day.

[brisbaneman]

Very easy to see here your opinion is a reflection on Dirk. Do you ever not think about him? Do you even like basketball or you just like Dirk? McHale is well respected and has helped NBA players, including KG.

I am a big time Mavs fan and a Dirkules homer second, but like all things in America, if someone were black they'd get a lot more attention and instant respect.

[knightfall88]

: "Worm & Squirm," "the White Salamander," and "the Slippery Eel."



What does sex positions have to do with this?

[Tha Catalyst]

I am a big time Mavs fan and a Dirkules homer second, but like all things in America, if someone were black they'd get a lot more attention and instant respect.
Buet people love Dirk, Nash, Bogut. They are modest are easy to relate to. It would be hard to find someone on this board who doesn't respect Nash, some believed he didn't deserve 2MVPs (he didn't), but they respect him.

[brisbaneman]

Buet people love Dirk, Nash, Bogut. They are modest are easy to relate to. It would be hard to find someone on this board who doesn't respect Nash, some believed he didn't deserve 2MVPs (he didn't), but they respect him.

Yeah I agree re:Nash but you can't honestly tell me Dirk would get all the disrespect and hate he gets if he were black.

[get these NETS]

I am a big time Mavs fan and a Dirkules homer second, but like all things in America, if someone were black they'd get a lot more attention and instant respect.



you sound like a clown


McHale played in the shadow of one of the top 10 best players ever, who took most of the BIG and clutch shots and had that pressure on him for most of his career. As great as KM was, he never wanted that kind of pressure.


If anything..like Adrian Dantley, Mark Agguire, and others...McHale's skills, post moves and footwork get overlooked for the high flying and flashier players of that era. Just the nature of fans.

Don't lecture people here about race relations...people have books and know about the history of how the ORIGINAL australians, the Aboriginal people, were and ARE treated over there .

tell Andrew Gaze, Longley, Crocodile Dundee and Outback Jack to kiss my arse.

[brisbaneman]

you sound like a clown


McHale played in the shadow of one of the top 10 best players ever, who took most of the BIG and clutch shots and had that pressure on him for most of his career. As great as KM was, he never wanted that kind of pressure.


If anything..like Adrian Dantley, Mark Agguire, and others...McHale's skills, post moves and footwork get overlooked for the high flying and flashier players of that era. Just the nature of fans.

Don't lecture people here about race relations...people have books and know about the history of how the ORIGINAL australians, the Aboriginal people, were and ARE treated over there .

tell Andrew Gaze, Longley, Crocodile Dundee and Outback Jack to kiss my arse.

yeah I am not denying any of what happened to Aboriginals but I think my point is still valid. Blacks get accorded an instant respect that whites must work for in the US (I am American by the way)

[Kobe 4 The Win]

Even as a Laker fan McHale is a player I always looked up to. His up and under move I spent a lot of time practicing. Hakeem gets a lot of respect for his post moves and it's well deserved but McHale in my eyes was even better. I remember somebody calling him the man of a thousand moves back in the day. The Celtics used to call him Herman Munster though. lol

[get these NETS]

yeah I am not denying any of what happened to Aboriginals but I think my point is still valid. Blacks get accorded an instant respect that whites must work for in the US (I am American by the way)


are you talking about sports or in REAL life?

Cause you know, I'd trade any of that "instant respect" to be able to not be followed around by store security when I shop or getting randomly racially profiled when I've nit committed so much as a parking violation in my life.


If you are talking about sports..I'd still disagree...reporters,writers,etc even in 2011...if you pay attention would have you think that Black college and pro athletes didn't work HARD and sacrifice things to be where they are...but you know..just have NATURAL talent....implied and stated that top white college or pro athlete is "hard working"

[Tha Catalyst]

you sound like a clown


McHale played in the shadow of one of the top 10 best players ever, who took most of the BIG and clutch shots and had that pressure on him for most of his career. As great as KM was, he never wanted that kind of pressure.


If anything..like Adrian Dantley, Mark Agguire, and others...McHale's skills, post moves and footwork get overlooked for the high flying and flashier players of that era. Just the nature of fans.

Don't lecture people here about race relations...people have books and know about the history of how the ORIGINAL australians, the Aboriginal people, were and ARE treated over there .

tell Andrew Gaze, Longley, Crocodile Dundee and Outback Jack to kiss my arse.
Don't twist it that way Australian's are ashamed of what happened to the aboriginals. That was done by a bunch of British merciless, power-hungry idiots. Despite them being forefathers of the country don't blame Luc Longley for it, he was a very lovable scrub.

[Rooster]

Even as a Laker fan McHale is a player I always looked up to. His up and under move I spent a lot of time practicing. Hakeem gets a lot of respect for his post moves and it's well deserved but McHale in my eyes was even better. I remember somebody calling him the man of a thousand moves back in the day. The Celtics used to call him Herman Munster though. lol

No way, I respect his game but I hate that barrel chested fool who did a cheap shot cloths lining Rambis. As far as his inside game, not as flashy as Hakeem dream shake but he has assortment of post moves inside. Jump hook, up and under, straight arm jumpshots, and infinite counter moves. Mychal Thompson used to brag about being the greatest Golden Gopher ever but when someone mentions McHale, he gets quiet. Also if he keep saying he knows boxing, and someone mention Byron Scott, he will be defensive. If you are a Laker fan you know this.

[bdreason]

The up and under baseline scoop shot is :bowdown:

[vinsanity2756]

i've seen some celtic games from the 80's. he definitely has a lot of variety in his post game. fade away, hooking, up and under.; pump fake, face-up and mid range shot. crafty and smart are the words that come to mind

[get these NETS]

If you are talking about sports..I'd still disagree...reporters,writers,etc even in 2011...if you pay attention would have you think that Black college and pro athletes didn't work HARD and sacrifice things to be where they are...but you know..just have NATURAL talent....implied and stated that top white college or pro athlete is "hard working"


read the chris mullin thread

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=239758

[fpliii]

:applause:

Dude could lose 90% of defenders off the fake after the first pivot, and the last 10% off the second pivot after the dribble.

[SHAQisGOAT]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wdtgUOiWHJg

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yXFIngeh6NY

You just don't see shit like that anymore.. ridiculous :applause: :applause:

Dude was very close to unstoppable, 1on1 in the post. Crazy peak, shame that it lasted so little. How did the Celtics even managed to have a better player in their squad is ridiculous, that 1986 team was simply unreal.

[CavaliersFTW]

He didn't do anything extraordinary or revolutionary, neither did hakeem for that matter. All their pivot moves had been done the previous 40 or 50 years of basketball and continue to be done today. The difference is he and Hakeem were lightning quick at reading the defense and quick to react with counter moves. Being lighter weight helps/makes that necessary, McHale was a skinny guy and Hakeem was just naturally quck. In basketball you use the tools your gifted with, so while a typical big man in the post might give you a fake to the middle than spin baseline, Hakeem or McHale would fake to the middle, fake the spin fake up than go underneath you after you went airborne all in a split second. It happens really quick and looks really complicated but it's actually simple footwork and fundamentals. They were just really good at making a quick read on the defense and reacting accordingly. They were two of the most fluid and quickest reacting post players as far as that goes.

[rhowen4]

those are some sexual nicknames

i love watching kevin mchale

[Smook A.]

His up and under move was extremely deadly

[Micku]

I made a thread a while back naming some of of his post moves. I forgot which one is which. I think this is the "slippery eel" move. It's my favorite. I can't believe he named it and used to do it a few times.

Slippery Eel against Ralph Sampson (crazy wing span):
www.youtube.com/watch?v=wdtgUOiWHJg#t=01m42s


The Worm against James Worthy:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wdtgUOiWHJg#t=01m17s


I think the difference between the two moves are:

The Worm- When he fakes he's going to hit a jumper to attract the defender and get him off balance, but then he moves baseline to hit a reverse layup.

The Slippery Eel- When backs an opponent down, goes to the middle and hit a lay up over his shoulder. It's a crazy shot, but due to his length you can't guard that one on one.

I think the names are correct, but I don't remember anymore. Mchale used to explain them in this one vid that I saw. Mchale was pretty much unguardable. He had counter after counter after counter. He could hit a midrange jumper and his post game is arguably the best. He reads the defense perfectly.

[BoutPractice]

It's not just the moves he uses, it's how he executes them: perfect read combined with a total optimization of his body stance. No one has ever exploited the potential of the up and under, in particular, to quite that extent. He took this move as far as it could possibly go.

[finchyyy]

Was also an INCREDIBLE defender before the foot injury, he used to guard SF's quite often. But yes, he's post moves are the best of all time for me. Probably not as flashy as the Dream's, but more efficient. Averaging 60% FG in a season in an era where they didn't really care about FG% is amazing.

[MavsSuperFan]

If you are only talking about peak performance and if you factor in the era he played in, he was the second best non-black player ever.

[fpliii]

If you are only talking about peak performance and if you factor in the era he played in, he was the second best non-black player ever.
Walton...?